Logic Audio IS OUT FOR OSX [Archive]

Pepzhez

Sep 1, 2002, 06:34 PM

The only problem is that OS X is 100% ABSOLUTELY USELESS FOR AUDIO!!! Sadly, Jaguar did NOT fix the serious flaws in OS X. That is, USB and Firewire devices do not work properly - unacceptable levels of distortions, pops and crackles are present. These flaws are more noticeable using peripheral devices, but they are there throughout the entire audio signal. If you doubt me, please take a look at the apple.com "audio" forum under "OS X". There you will see complaint after complaint about this.

Until and unless Apple fixes this unacceptable flaw in their OS, the only way to get any real work done using Power PC is to run OS 9.2 or a Linux setup. For all their bragging about their new "audio core", why is it that the current Linux audio core works one thousand times better than Apple's (which doesn't work at all, really)?

I really did hope that Jaguar would finally correct this problem once and for all. Imagine my disappointment in discovering that Apple did not even address the problem, much less attempt to correct it. How they expect to make Logic for X the new standard is quite laughable when the OS cannot even make it work properly.

We have extensively tested OS X - from 10.1.0 to 10.2 - for our production environment (professional audio - for both music and film) - from the lowliest G3 imac to the latest dual gig PowerMac - all with the same sad results. Every call to Apple tech support elicits a begrudging admission that "OS X still has some ways to go" and a promise that the next update will cure all ills. (They've been telling me this since 10.1.0.) Apple has really dropped the ball on this one, and nothing is going to destroy their already-eroding credibility in the audio world more than Logic Platinum for X unless they fix the OS problems ASAP.

It's a shame, as I really like Apple and it's painful and puzzling to know that they can't seem to get this together in the least. Our only option - that is, if we want to get any work done - is to either run OS 9.2 (too unstable, unfortunately) or Linux (which has been working quite well). I've decided against buying a new PowerMac for myself, and will be running SuSE Linux on a dual gig Athlon for audio production. What other choice has Apple given me?

I REALLY wish OS X worked for audio, as it's otherwise a very nice and elegant platform. Just when *will* Apple finally address this issue?

pev

Sep 1, 2002, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by pev

Quote from Michael Haydn, it will be coming "Later" whatever that means. Patience is a virtue I am told.... I need the AW drivers too, so I guess I'm biding my time...

Oh, solution I found : Install 5.3.0 platinum, go through the dialogs and select XSKey activation and you can activate a 28 day demo for platiunum on X - this should hopefully be long enough to wait for the official release...

HTH,

~Pev

nuckinfutz

Sep 1, 2002, 06:48 PM

Seriously, just as much as I hope the transition to OS X to go smoothly, I still have my strongest doubts as to how quickly we will get a OS X pro audio system to be as versatile as a OS 9 system. Basically, for me to consider "going X" for pro audio means that I need to have a decent DAW system with a sufficient amount of plugins and software synthesizers. I'm sorry Apple, but as of right now, such a system simply doesn't exist. Sure, we have Reason, Peak and now Logic Audio, but I'm still waiting for Native Instruments to make an announcement for their software synthesizers. And of course, I express my sympathy to everyone still waiting for Pro Tools...

Taken from this thread

http://community.sonikmatter.com/emagic/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=000739

ppgwave first test using Logic on X.

Yep - VST is dead - long live Audio Units. Apparently there's a very "easy" conversion from Carbonized VST to Audio Units available from Emapple.

BTW - OSX Logic5 ROCKS. I just loaded a song with 24 EXS instances, 2 ES2, and 2 ES1, that used to get to around 80% on my Dual800, and now it's maxing at 40% on ONE cpu. The promised efficiencies on Dual CPUs are for REAL!

So basically Logic OS X almost DOUBLES your performance. Sounds like a winner to me. And from what i'm reading porting VST to Audio Unit doesn't sound like alot of work to gain access to many more apps since AU is systemwide ANY app will be able to use you plugin. Win/Win situation.

It's a shame, as I really like Apple and it's painful and puzzling to know that they can't seem to get this together in the least. Our only option - that is, if we want to get any work done - is to either run OS 9.2 (too unstable, unfortunately) or Linux (which has been working quite well). I've decided against buying a new PowerMac for myself, and will be running SuSE Linux on a dual gig Athlon for audio production. What other choice has Apple given me?

Until you provide a link to back up these claims this is pure FUD. What friggin idiot uses SUSE Linux for Audio. This post was pure ********.

tjwett

Sep 1, 2002, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by Pepzhez
The only problem is that OS X is 100% ABSOLUTELY USELESS FOR AUDIO!!! Sadly, Jaguar did NOT fix the serious flaws in OS X....

I do production music for T.V., web, video and have used Logic Audio exclusively since version 3. My OS 9 studio, although basically abandoned by Apple as a platform, is faster, more third party-aware, and above all fully functional as opposed to X. I've spent the last few hours setting up my environments in Logic for OS X and have made several attempts to get a clean audio signal into or out of the machine. Here is the most annoying part. I'm using an emagic(that's right, Apple) emi 2|6 audio interface. I purchased this because of it's seamless integration with Logic and it's low latency and it has worked flawlessly for me in OS 9.2.2 for a while now. Under OS X, I can't get a clean signal at any bitrate regardless of my input device or buffer settings. Obviously 10.2 did not fix any of this as was expected and I will be booting back into 9.2.2 for my audio work. I have a few other apps that run under X(Live and Reason 2.0) and they work OK but they all suffer from the same problems; no good use of my interface and most importantly, very poor performance. I can't even get half the tracks, effects, DSP, etc. in X as I can in OS 9. Os X appears that it won't be a viable audio production platform for some time to come. It's a shame because I like the environment alot, it just doesn't work. Jaguar is a perfectly suitable name for the OS. Just like the car, it is sexy, comfortable and expensive but under the hood is a lemon. I'm not trying to crap on the OS because as I said I do love it but this is most frustrating as this release is what I have been so eagerly anticipating for months now. And what kills me is that it is an Apple product running on an Apple OS using an Apple interface. So much for seamless integration. On another note, I am excited about the features, especially the Audio Units standard.

nuckinfutz

Sep 1, 2002, 07:27 PM

messed with audio over USB.

They need to fix these issues and make sure the Firewire audio devices are flawless also.

That's too bad. I jumped all over Pepzhez and he was right. The fixes better be in 10.2.1 or we'll have to raise h*ly h3ll

Pepzhez

Sep 1, 2002, 07:42 PM

tjwett,

I sympathize with you. Isn't OS X great? Move the mouse, get audio distortions; plug in a peripheral audio device, hear static! Now Jaguar can natively support this "special effect" in 5.1 surround sound! Way to go, Apple!

I'd been using OS 9.2 (no other choice, really), but was frustrated with the occasional instabilities. They don't happen too often, but a crash or freeze, when it happened, always occurred at the worst possible moment. I've really given up on Apple for audio work. I can't wait forever for them to fix this, and I'm sick and tired of their promises: "Oh! The next update will magically fix everything."

I wasn't about to use Windows either.

Experimenting with Linux yielded excellent results. I now have a functioning audio workstation using Linux for Power PC. There are some excellent Linux audio apps around also. (Nothing yet as nice as Logic, but you'd be surprised at what's out there for free or nearly so.) Most important of all, I get a clean audio signal each and every time.

[The only current drawback using Linux is that Firewire support is still in the beta stage. That is, if you, like me, use Firewire devices.]

What I don't understand is how the open-source world can get this right and Apple, what with all their billions of dollars and experience and reputation, can continue to screw it up so badly. Come on, even Windows 95 doesn't suffer from this problem! What's up with that?! I'm not a programmer, but this does lead me to believe that OS X has some serious problems. One thing is for certain: it is NOT a hardware problem (these things run fine on OS 9 and Linux). The problem cannot be in the UNIX core (Linux example again). Perhaps it is Aqua interfering with everything? I really do not know. (Perhaps someone here with more knowledge than I have can take a guess.)

Apple is about to seriously lose whatever credibility they had remaining in the audio world. And it is entirely their fault. People are going to be outraged when they waste their time and money on Logic for OS X and find that the OS cannot make proper - or even merely functional use of the app.

I already feel like a sucker for shelling out for Jaguar; hoping that it would at last fix all these problems. It is obvious that the next studio which attempts to set up an OS X system will: 1) never get it to work, and 2) subsequently, will never consider buying any Apple product for recording ever again, period.

This is going to be a major disaster for Apple, mark my words.

pgwalsh

Sep 1, 2002, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by C14ru5

[I]. I'm still waiting for Native Instruments to make an announcement for their software synthesizers. And of course, I express my sympathy to everyone still waiting for Pro Tools...
Native-Instruments has already realeased Traktor DJ for OS X so I imagine plugins can't be far behind.

Pepzhez

Sep 1, 2002, 07:57 PM

nuckinfutz,

I'd never make the claim that SuSE is the ideal distro for audio, but since I knew nothing about Linux, this was the distro I chose to install. From reading the info on their sites, at least I could tell that SuSE supported audio and Yellow Dog did not. I wanted a distro to install with the least amount of hassle, as I'm just barely learning how to use Linux.

Jeez, no need to jump all over me! I'm only trying to get something to work, because OS X sure as hell does not! For me, this is a private, experimental setup. I just wanted to know if it would work at all, period. So far, so good. It's already obvious to me that this is not the ideal or even best Linux setup to have, but I had to start somewhere.

If you can suggest a better Linux setup for audio, I would actually really appreciate your input.

tjwett

Sep 1, 2002, 08:04 PM

Originally posted by Pepzhez
tjwett,

I sympathize with you. Isn't OS X great? Move the mouse, get audio distortions; plug in a peripheral audio device, hear static! Now Jaguar can natively support this "special effect" in 5.1 surround sound! Way to go, Apple!

I agree completely. This is a serious diappointment to me, and my studio peeps. We have been dying to make the jump and even though alot of our VSTis and plugins still are not ready, we were going to ditch OS9 and get by with Logic and Reason 2.0 for now. In the studio we use an RME multiface so we'll see if that yields any better results. I've tried the MOTU 828 in X and it blows. I really like the emi 2|6 because I rarely record any external audio aside from sampling. If the issue does not get fixed real soon I think my only option is to ditch the external interface and my mixer and see if i can find an optical card that will work. But then how do i get to my monitors?! It's so funny that Logic Platinum supports high-end stuff like 5.1, 24/96, etc. and the only OS that can run it doesn't support anything, atleast not well. I refuse to stay in 9 for any longer than 6 more months because Apple will officially abandon the OS and I will be left way in the dust. Can you point me to some Linux info. I'm open minded and am interested to see what's on offer. How painful is it to install Linux on a Mac?

ndstephens

Sep 1, 2002, 08:09 PM

where is this apple.com audio forum that you're talking about? is it actually on the www.apple.com website? if so i can't find it. i want more info about the audio problems on OSX so i'd really like to check out whatever forum you're referring to. thanks.

nate.

Pepzhez

Sep 1, 2002, 08:33 PM

Apple's site is a nightmare to navigate, isn't it?

Go to http://www.apple.com

Then click "support" on the top right

then click "Join Discussions"

Then "Mac OS X"

scroll down a bit ...

then "audio"

I recommend you read the (very long) threads titled "10.2 USB Audio Glitches - Sign Petition Here!" and "List all your OS X audio problems here". As you will see, there are major problems with OS X and audio. It is not just a couple of people who cannot get things working right.

tjwett, I came across a few good sites on Linux audio info. Thought I had them bookmarked but cannot find them. Let me do a search later and I will post them here.

Pepzhez

Sep 1, 2002, 08:44 PM

Oh, and not difficult to install Linux on a Mac. I mean, if I can do it, anyone can! :) I put it on an extra HD I had sitting around. That way, if I screwed anything up, it was no loss - just wipe the drive, start again, etc. No great loss that way.

Here's a good starting point. Check out this page for Linux distro comparisons for Power PC:

http://www.distrowatch.com/ppc.php

And this is the homepage for Advanced Linux Sound Architecture (with very good links):

http://www.alsa-project.org/

Some Linux audio apps:

http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/linux/

Somewhat useful Mac-centric Linux info:

http://www.imaclinux.net/index.php

More useful resource on Linux basics (and beyond):

http://www.linuxnewbie.org/

The last thing I am is an an expert on Linux. I'm barely getting a grip on it, but it's proving to be easier than I thought it would be. I'm sure that there are people around macrumors who know far, far more than I do about all this. Anyone care to jump in?

ndstephens

Sep 1, 2002, 08:45 PM

cool, thanks. never knew that was there. what a nightmare. i "switched" to apple just over a year ago and was so incredibly happy that i did. now a year later there's tons of concerns over a future CPU, the new G4's are a joke, everyone fears putting faster proc in the Powerbooks b/c of heat problems, the newest version of the OS still doens't fix audio problems at all......

point is i'm getting really nervous these days about being a mac person. amazing how much can change in one year. i'll wait things out for another 6 months at least. i'd hate to have to switch again.

tjwett

Sep 1, 2002, 08:56 PM

thanks Pepzhez for all that. and i went and signed that petition at Apple. i'm going to have a go at installing Linux and see what i see. i'll post more about Logic X as i come across it. right now it's just simply unusable.

nuckinfutz

Sep 1, 2002, 10:05 PM

Originally posted by Pepzhez
nuckinfutz,

I'd never make the claim that SuSE is the ideal distro for audio, but since I knew nothing about Linux, this was the distro I chose to install. From reading the info on their sites, at least I could tell that SuSE supported audio and Yellow Dog did not. I wanted a distro to install with the least amount of hassle, as I'm just barely learning how to use Linux.

Jeez, no need to jump all over me! I'm only trying to get something to work, because OS X sure as hell does not! For me, this is a private, experimental setup. I just wanted to know if it would work at all, period. So far, so good. It's already obvious to me that this is not the ideal or even best Linux setup to have, but I had to start somewhere.

If you can suggest a better Linux setup for audio, I would actually really appreciate your input.

Thought you were trolling until I headed over to Apples support site for Audio...

mmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmm this crow tastes yummy. Next time I'll check before poppin' off at the mouth. I really hope that these problems are taken care of though because I can empathize with what you and TJWETT are going through.

pev

Sep 2, 2002, 04:19 AM

Originally posted by tjwett
i'll post more about Logic X as i come across it. right now it's just simply unusable.
What a load of ****. These boards are full of people making sweeping statements trying to sound informed... Logic X is *not* "simply unusable". Last night I installed it. Easy. Imported a few of my tracks, pressed play, off they went, no problems. No glitching, smooth performance and snappy. That doesnt seem "unusable" to me. If you want credibility, perhaps consider saying something more carefully written?

If anyone wants to know specific details about Logic X from someone thats actually running it rather than reading rumors and release notes, fire away and I'll do my best to find out, explain and maybe do a few screen grabs too.

P.S. Linux for Audio? You're kidding right? A pretty poor framework, worse support for 'pro' cards than OSX, and kernel jitter that can see latencies of up to 30ms on system interrupts (see Beno's benchmarks : http://www.gardena.net/benno/linux/audio/ ) No. Linux is not ready for primetime audio use by a long shot, and OSX will have its teething troubles ironed out LONG before linux does. Of course you could locate a card with a linux driver, download a 2.5.x experimental linux kernel, configure for your hardware and the pre-emptive scheduling (experimental) option andre-compile. Use that as your base and then use whatever audio app provides some of what you need and you may have a little success but not an easy to use system. Why bother?

~Pev

PastorOfMuppets

Sep 2, 2002, 05:30 AM

I am noticing a lot of "audio professionals" complaining about USB audio problems, and I have this to say: why the ******* are you using a USB audio interface?

Look, USB 1.0 can only do 1.5MB/s, and since the Mac's built-in USB ports are connected to an internal hub, that 1.5MB/s is shared between all your devices. Now, based on my calculations, 1 second of 24/96 audio is about 1MB (24 bits per sample, 96,000 samples per second, PCM compression ratio of aproximately 2:1).

The truth is, USB is "simply unusable" for anything higher than CD quality, and I would recomend not using it for anything other than connecting peripherals.

mymemory

Sep 2, 2002, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by thepannist
I am still waiting for Digital Performer for OSX
... since Berklee (my school) is a DP school. Oh well....I guess I have to stick with 9 for the time being

Ok, "Berklee" buy why don't you go to MOTUs office and ask them your self? it is just 10 minutes from your school, I went there but they didn't let me in:rolleyes:

mymemory

Sep 2, 2002, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by Pepzhez
The only problem is that OS X is 100% ABSOLUTELY USELESS FOR AUDIO!!!

My friend, welcome to the group!

For years I have seen that Apple is a visual-based company, they have impruve everything during all this years except for the audio connectos wich are the same you can find in the Mac Clasic and the rest of them. The biggest jump for Apple (audio concern) was iTunes and that was 20 years later, but apple knows about audio what a Cuban (in Cuba) knows about the stuck market in the US.

sfoalex

Sep 2, 2002, 10:33 AM

I understand the complaints regarding USB for audio. Someone here said they use OS 9.2.2 with USB and that works just fine and OS X does not. If that is true, then you have to rule out hardware as the issue as that post did.

I have a question as I am a lot more into video then audio. I am considering getting my feet wet with audio and I wanted to know if the new G4 towers with Audio in, so they advertise, would solve all these issues I am reading about.

Is there a reason you must use USB or FireWire interface devices? Someone posted that they have tested hardware from G3s to the latest Dual G4s. Why the use of USB for audio and not LINE IN on the computers that offer that port?

Thanks,

Alex

pianophile

Sep 2, 2002, 11:51 AM

A post on Apple discussions suggests that bandwidth may be an issue with at least some USB audio problems:

http://discussions.info.apple.com/WebX?50@156.a5xha1VVcgb.63@.3bb9bb57/0

(If URL fails, try Apple Support -> discussions -> Mac OS X > Using Technologies > Audio > i Sub fix that WORKS for 10.2)

If what this user suggests is true, it's possible that Apple *can't* fix the USB audio issues until they sell Macs with more or faster USB ports.

I am with those that are saying Apple should never have emphasized USB audio the way they have. USB just isn't suitable for audio, or any other high-bandwidth applcation.

lewnworx

Sep 2, 2002, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by Pepzhez
The only problem is that OS X is 100% ABSOLUTELY USELESS FOR AUDIO!!! Sadly, Jaguar did NOT fix the serious flaws in OS X. That is, USB and Firewire devices do not work properly - unacceptable levels of distortions, pops and crackles are present.

I'm curious as to how exactly you've determined this. There's not exactly a ton of OSX Audio apps available right now.

why is it that the current Linux audio core works one thousand times better than Apple's (which doesn't work at all, really)?

And what Linux audio core apps are you currently using for multi-track? Sequencing?

I really did hope that Jaguar would finally correct this problem once and for all. Imagine my disappointment in discovering that Apple did not even address the problem, much less attempt to correct it. -SNIP-

We have extensively tested OS X - from 10.1.0 to 10.2 - for our production environment (professional audio - for both music and film) - from the lowliest G3 imac to the latest dual gig PowerMac - all with the same sad results.

Sorry, but I'm having a BIT of a hard time with this. 10.2 has only been released for at best a couple weeks now, and LAP was literally just released yesterday. I'm a software developer by trade, and I'd have a tough time saying I'd "extensively" tested ANYTHING in two weeks, let alone one day.

Our only option - that is, if we want to get any work done - is to either run OS 9.2 (too unstable, unfortunately) or Linux (which has been working quite well). I've decided against buying a new PowerMac for myself, and will be running SuSE Linux on a dual gig Athlon for audio production. What other choice has Apple given me?

Front what I can tell, apparently none. No offense, but you sound like every other "Linux is the only answer to everything" type I've ran into. The problem here is simple: There aren't any truly pro quality audio (or video or 3D for that matter) apps for Linux. Why? Because there's no money in it. So few people run Linux as a primary operating system that you make the Mac users look like the overwhelming majority in comparison. Companies can't afford to dedicate dozens of man years to a product that will only sell to a miniscule % of the population (and I'm not talking about Macs here, Logic has a couple hundred thousand installed copies). Any product with the development scope of a multitracking / sequencing / plugin supporting type like Logic, Pro Tools, CuBase or Digital Performer is a multi million dollar development process. You don't pour millions into something that if you're lucky you might get a 50-100K return on. It's suicide. Sorry to break any bubbles here, but that is fiscal reality.

IMHO, most of your post appeared to me to be a non fact based rant, which is great for entertainment value (I get to guess which orafice the verbage comes out of) but doesn't do much in terms of real education. Of course, this IS a rumors board, and rumors boards have a tendency to attract, well you know, the stuff that flies are drawn too.

=)

Have a lovely day.

tjwett

Sep 2, 2002, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by PastorOfMuppets
I am noticing a lot of "audio professionals" complaining about USB audio problems, and I have this to say: why the ******* are you using a USB audio interface?

Look, USB 1.0 can only do 1.5MB/s, and since the Mac's built-in USB ports are connected to an internal hub, that 1.5MB/s is shared between all your devices. Now, based on my calculations, 1 second of 24/96 audio is about 1MB (24 bits per sample, 96,000 samples per second, PCM compression ratio of aproximately 2:1).

The truth is, USB is "simply unusable" for anything higher than CD quality, and I would recomend not using it for anything other than connecting peripherals.

I am using USB audio AT HOME, in the studio we use an RME multiface. Anyway, the emi 2|6 suits me just fine. For one, I rarely record external audio at all and when I do it's never more than one stereo track at a time. I am basically all virtual. I use the EVP 88, Absynth, Metasynth, Exs24, Reason and a variety of plugins. It has worked flawlessly in 9.2 and the latest ASIO drivers for the emi 2|6 have incredibly low latency. Plus, the fact that it is made by emagic/Apple means it will "get along" with my studio well. I have even used it for live performance with Ableton Live without a hiccup. My problem is not USB. My problem is USB in OSX.

tjwett

Sep 2, 2002, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by pev

What a load of ****. These boards are full of people making sweeping statements trying to sound informed... Logic X is *not* "simply unusable". Last night I installed it. Easy. Imported a few of my tracks, pressed play, off they went, no problems. No glitching, smooth performance and snappy. That doesnt seem "unusable" to me. If you want credibility, perhaps consider saying something more carefully written?

What I meant was that it's unusable for ME. I am really proud of you that your studio is tip-top and running smoothly but the fact is that mine is not, atleast under OS X. But thanks for the really helpful and informative reply! Your "credibility" with me is through the roof and I'll be sure and call on you for technical assistance in the future. Rock on!
Anyone WITHOUT a childish attitude care to share the details of their functional Logic X setup?

lewnworx

Sep 2, 2002, 01:31 PM

After reading through the rest of this thread, AND going to the Apple Support discussions site, I've made the following observations: (LONG WINDED POST ALERT!)

I'm finally beginning to get a functioning audio workstation again. I installed SuSE Linux on my imac DVSE, downloaded Ecasound and have been experimenting all week long. The current Linux audio core supports most USB devices, and this set-up is running the UA-30 flawlessly. Not a single crackle or distortion to be heard at any time (Take that, OS 10.2!) I am impressed.

iMac DVSE? This is the platform of choice to do serious work on? It doesn't even have a slot! That's like bitching about trying to run the Indy 500 in a Yugo and not understanding why you keep losing.

Most of the posts under both the USB audio and "List your audio problems here" theads were about USB speakers (particularly the iSub). Now granted, from the sounds of things, this is a very real problem for the users affected. However, if you consider yourself a "pro" and you're planning on mixing down on USB (or any computer speaker for that matter) you really should consider an alternate career path. There's a reason they make studio monitors. There's a reason you have your room tuned, RPG diffused and bass trapped. If you don't know why, you should seriously consider finding out.

Some background. I ran a 24 track studio in the 80's. After a two decade hiatus from the music biz, I'm building a new studio in my home. The first thing I did was get a proper machine. A dedicated machine. There's no games, no word processors, or anything else on it. Now I've got a Cube I dearly love, which I've upgraded to the hilt, but I wouldn't for a second use it for Logic, because I've yet to see firewire as a viable means for audio I/O, let alone USB. I went with a Delta 1010 for the following reasons:

1) It sits directly on the PCI bus. This has the benefit of guaranteed packet delivery to the proc, which USB and Firewire do not. They are inherently at the mercy of other processes on the system. USB I wouldn't trust to anything but keyboards, mice and digital camera file xfers. My cube has USB audio, and I file it under the "neat toys" category, but nothing I'd use for serious work.

2) It's stackable. You can load up as many 1010's as you have slots for, and Logic can see them all. I rather doubt that stunt would come off too well using MOTU's firewire products.

This isn't to say the Delta is the be all and end all, it just offered the most inherent reliability over USB and Firewire architectures. Firewire has room for improvement. I'm holding out for the next version, and based on it' specs, it perhaps can really deliver for real time audio.

I mentioned speakers earlier. I'm running a pair of Mackie 824's for near field and Tannoy's for far field. Even with these great speaks and a well planned and wired room, I'm still not releasing a damn thing out of this studio yet. Why? The room isn't finished. I haven't done the proper accoustical treatments, and until I do, anything I mix in here will ONLY sound good in here and I know it. As will any other professional.

The point I'm trying to make here, is that you can't expect pro quality results when you're using what amounts to (no offense) consumer toys. I like iMacs. They're cute, they do what they're supposed to do, and I'll probably get my wife one for Christmas or something. However, I'd never even attempt to try to run an audio business off of one. The same holds with USB audio I/O. It's fine for some limited applications, but to try use it for multitrack/mixing work is nuts. I know Emagic, MidiMan and slug of other folks have cranked these things out, because the market wants something that's "cheap". Perhaps they've (the I/O manufacturers) overtouted what the USB capabilities are, but gang, there's only so much you can stuff through a USB pipe, and since nearly everything in the system can preempt the data stream, you don't stand much of chance in terms of reliability.

Next: The Finger Pointing at Apple for the USB problems:
I don't blame Apple for Emagic's and M Audio's marketing decisions. They targeted those devices at BOTH platforms, remember? And this was LONG before Apple bought Emagic. Let's make an attempt at keeping history in it's proper perspective.

Finally:

I installed LAP 5.3 yesterday as well. And I DID have problems, in that my AMT-8 was not recognized by either 10.2 OR LAP. It eventually showed up, and it turns out the problem is apparently a conflict between the Midi driver for the Delta 1010 and the AMT8's driver. This was a bit of a shock, and almost seems like a PC sort of problem that we Mac users pride ourselves on not having to deal with.

However, I'll give Apple/Emagic/Midiman the benefit of the doubt for the moment for the following reasons:

1) Apple just acquired Emagic a short time ago. Changes cannot happen overnight.

2) 10.2 is new. Like a couple weeks old in fact. The Pro Audio aspect is a smaller part of the big picture, (for us, obviously it's the most important part) and I'm sure the audio part probably could have used more testing, but was it worth holding an entire OS release over in the big scheme of things? Probably not.

3) Midiman and Emagic (and the other "3rd party vendors" haven't had a lot of time to really dig into 10.2. I don't consider 10.1.x a viable platform for audio anyway, as it really wasn't the focus of any of those releases. Apple was far more concerned with the masses (i.e. Photoshop / FCP / etc) getting those bugs worked out. Us Audio types are a smaller population. We're important yes, but they do have to prioritize. Guess what? So does MicroSloth. I'd rather hedge my bet on Apple, since MS is going to prioritize where it always has. Big businesses that buy Windows and MS Office in lots of 1000. Apple know's it can't win that one, which means we stand a far greater chance of being catered to.

4) I can't pin this on OSX 10.2 completely. I had similar midi conflicts between the 1010 and the AMT8 back in 9.2 until I took the 1010's Midi out of the picture completely.

Back to the LAP 5 .3 install:

Once I got the AMT8 recognized, the rest was flawless. I opened a project I'd done under 9.2 and LAP 5.3 offered to convert the audio tracks and audio object references over to CoreAudio for me, (which it did without a hitch, even to the extent of letting me know my 9.x vst plugs weren't availabe). I switched those plug references over to the closest Logic Native alternative and doinked play on the control surface (which also works flawlessly under 10.2/LAP 5.3 once the midi got right).

This track had:

9 Audio tracks
6 EXS24's (two of which were multi channel, the drums alone ate up an additional 11 aux audio tracks)
2 ES2's
1 ESE
1 offboard Midi part (Roland JP8000)
13 Compressors.
8 EQ's
4 Platinumverbs
2 Silververbs
3 Delays.

It ran fine. No glitches that I could tell. The automation cues were just as I'd left em in the 9.2 / LAP 5.2 version.

So far, I'm tickled pink.

There are SOME issues remaining however: I've had this funky business with the cursor hotspot not being "right" even back in 9.2/LAP 5.0-5.2. That one's still there.

Does Apple/Emagic still have work to do? Oh yeah. I've got a wishlist a mile long for LAP (don't we all..)

I think the biggest hurt will be the lack of VST instruments and plugs. While Emagic has offered a library to make the port near painless, it's still going to be a bit before the rest of the 3rd party guys get up to speed. Until then I'm going to be missing some stuff. I'll make do. It's a pure joy to not have to boot back into OS9 just to do audio work for a change.

cspace

Sep 2, 2002, 01:37 PM

i'd have to agree that Linux probably isn't the solution for most people. there are some really nice apps available, and the linux audio community is a nice bunch of folks...however, it's still not easy to get up and running. be prepared to get your hands dirty searching for libraries you need, getting the most recent versions from source control, etc. it's a moving target and is best suited to very technical people at the moment. not to say it's not getting better because it is, but it's not very easy to use yet. here's an example: imagine you have a deadline, and you record some audio that you want to touch up in a sound editor. you find a strange bug that causes the editor to crash with your file. you send a bug report off to the developer. he replies back in 3 hours and says that he already fixed that bug, get the new release from source control. you do that, then find out that you also need to upgrade library X and Y also. you do that. you compile the new version of the editor and bingo - it works! great, but 4 hours have gone by. does this sound like something you'd be comfortable with? if so, then give linux audio a shot. most audio pros are not into this, from what i can tell. and most of them don't use USB anyway for reasons mentioned elsewhere on this thread ;-> that said, hopefully apple can fix some of these issues. someone also mentioned that Firewire audio also sucks under 10.2...i'd be more interested in the details on this.

cspace

lewnworx

Sep 2, 2002, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by tjwett
Anyone WITHOUT a childish attitude care to share the details of their functional Logic X setup?

Dunno about the attitude (someone else can ascertain that), but here goes:

1) Box:
Any G4 will do, obviously faster can be better. Dual procs help under OS9, hugely more so under 10. Mine has both an AGP and PCI video card and I'm running dual 21" monitors.

2) Cards:
Just the video card and a Delta 1010

3) USB:
Cabled 1 main USB to the AMT8. The other goes to the Apple pro keyboard, which has the LAP dongle on on side and a Kensignton Turboball on the other. That's it. Nothing else on the USB bus. I'd had enough problems in video land (AE, Commotion, Electric Image) to learn the less crap on the USB bus the better. Hubs are just asking for problems.

4) OS Setup:

I always partition the drives. First the details, then the theory:

1) Mac OSX Partition. Clean install of 10.2 only. No OS9
2) Mac OS9 Partition for Classic (this is a 800mb parition). Clean install of 9.2.2 and nuked all the 3rd party USB driver crap (rio's palms, etc). Also nuke all printing crap and any other extranious crap. In short it's stripped to bone.
3) Mac OS Partition for LAP 5.x and other 9 only audio apps. This one has all the "junk" in it. OMS, etc.

Why go to this extreme?
Simple. This is the only brick wall means of ensuring reliability. If you use the same OS9 partition to boot into, as well as run under Classic, you're just asking for it. All the 3rd party crap the audio apps love to throw in all over hell's half acre are a disaster waiting to happen under classic. Now granted I don't run classic much at all, but in the rare occurance I need to I can do it without an hours worth of troubleshooting. For me it's all about time. I hate wasting time jacking around with why the box doesn't work because I'm too busy trying to force it to do something that it probably "should" do but won't. Screw that. I'll just go the safe route, and elminate as many variables as possible.

Logic install:

I booted 10.2 and first installed the Delta 1010 driver. Next I installed LAP 5.3. I then rebooted.

Logic Tweezes:

As I mentioned in another post, I'd had problems with the AMT8 initially. It turned out to be some sort of problem between the Delta 1010's midi driver and the LAP midi driver. I have no idea how I got it working, but it had something to do with noodling about in the enviroment layer. The sure fire fix (which I have to thank a buddy at Apple for) is to remove the Delta 1010's midi driver until they (Apple/Emagic/Midiman) figure out who did what wrong. Apparently either the LAP or the Midiman driver is not completely written to the CoreAudio specification. I'd expect there will be a fix shortly from one or the other once they nail it down. This isn't a biggie for me since I don't even use the midi port on the 1010 anyway.

So..

How to get LAP 5.3 and a Delta 1010 to play nice.
1) Install the Delta 1010 for OSX drivers (get from the Midiman site)
2) Go to Library/Core Audio/Midi Drivers
3) Get info on the "DeltaMidiDriver.plugin" folder. Change the owner from system to your user name.
4) Drag the DeltaMidiDriver.plugin folder out onto the desktop (or someplace else, just get it out of the library folder
5) Install LAP 5.3
6) Open the Audio Midi Setup (in the utils folder in Applications).
7) Click on the Midi tab. If you see a AMT8 or Unitor8 sitting there, you're home free. Done deal.
8) Launch LAP and crank away.

Environment Tweezes
I diddled my autoload a bit.
1) Open old 9.x Autoload. Saved in the 5.3 for X LAP folder.
2) Turn off any references to old VST plugs (won't crash or anything, but LAP will complain about them each time you launch until you do so.
3) Rearrange your screen sets to accomodate the dock then lock them back down. In my case I just had to resize my track window a bit.
4) Substitute any default VST plugs with the closest LAP native equiv.
5) Save.

That's all I did. The whole shebang took about 15 minutes. That certainly beats the hours somebody else posted about compiling and futzing around for hours just to keep current. Yeesh. I'd rather be making bad music.
=)

Hope that helps.

tjwett

Sep 2, 2002, 04:07 PM

lewnworx,
yes that is helpful. thanks. i run a very minimal extension set also. it's very important for OS 9 but what about for X? we don't have an extension manager anymore. i thought about creating a separate Login User id for audio and removing all unwanted apps/files for that user but would that really help? i think that the real tweaks are buried deep in the System and i'm not keen on messing around with that. how do we make the equivilent of a stripped down extension set with OS X? and is it still necessary?

lewnworx

Sep 2, 2002, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by tjwett
what about for X? we don't have an extension manager anymore.
Here I was referring to when you boot 9 via Classic under X. It's still just as important, which is why I have a "classic use only" OS9 install.
Originally posted by tjwett
i thought about creating a separate Login User id for audio and removing all unwanted apps/files for that user but would that really help? i think that the real tweaks are buried deep in the System and i'm not keen on messing around with that.
AAAAAK. Don't go there. It isn't as simple as just removing apps for that user, and besides it wouldn't help. (BTW, if you were, you'd be removing them for all users, since they're shared. Under X, only the contents of the "home" folder (i.e. the stuff in the user's account name folder in users) is specific to a given user.

You really don't need a per user "extension" setup under X. 98% of what you'd want to disable are really background process apps, which you can access under login items and turn off what you don't need. In reality, in very few cases do you actually run into something where you have to. X by and large is ludicrously stable, so the init/extension conflicts of old are really not part of the equation. Drivers, on the other hand, can be, as I saw yesterday with LAP 5.3. In this case it can be a bit nastier, in that you have to know where they are on the drive to disable them by removing, but with any luck the Audio folks will figure it out pretty quickly and get updaters in place to cure these ills.

I'd subscribe to the Yahoo EMagic users lists, since this is really the best source for all things Logic related, and the most reliable, since Michael Haydn and other EMagic staff post there regularly.

pev

Sep 2, 2002, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by tjwett
What I meant was that it's unusable for ME.
Great. You could have said that then!

(boring sarcastic comments snipped)

Anyone WITHOUT a childish attitude care to share the details of their functional Logic X setup?
Well, that probably rules me out (feel free to ignore this post tjwett), but hey, I'll post some useful stuff from me anyway (Cut and pasted from elsewhere).

Platform : New Mirrored Drive door dual 867
OS : 10.2
Other hardware : Audiowerk 8, Apple Narrow SCSI card

System setup : The drive has a 10G OS+Apps partition and a 50G storage partition and a second drive for audio and samples. The OS9 + OSX are both on the one partition as Apple recommend that you do not split the two onto seperate partitions - I believe this is because in some instances Classic mode can be get into confused states if 9 & X are split. Its a vanilla insall, with various apps as well. (Spark, Office, Fetch, ie etc)

Install was easy : 5.3.0 is a standalone installer and installs into the Applications dir. All I needed to do was authorise the XSKey, and make a new alias to my EXS24 instruments dir.

Hardware :
My Audiowerk 8 is unsupported under X so only tested using the Core Audio built in output. Am pleasently surprised that the response and noise floor on the built in output is not bad at all. (noted in the manual that its now 24bit output) Also Surprised that it works with audio instruments with no obvious latency. My midisport 2x2 (only connects an MPC, Virus and K4) also worked instantly on installing the new beta drivers for 10.2.

Tests :
I've only tested with a couple of tracks so far (approx 14 stereo tracks, built in logic plugins, 5 EXS24s and an ESM) and it seems to work fine with no glitching. What is great is that the interface stays snappy (Quartz Extreme at work?) But I'm not sure yet how well the Dual CPU support works better in OSX. In theory it should be way better BUT... Note that also you still get 'locked out' by the wristwatch doing certain things - for example refreshing a big list of EXS24 instruments. Of course the other track that used some VST plugs in '9 got a bit confused as theyre not availiable from X (yet!)

Tweaks :
Unlike OS9 where turning of VM, reassigning mem allocation and hacking extension sets, theres nothing analogous under X. You could hack vaarious bsd init files but generally thats more likely to cause you problems than optimise the system for audio. The only thing I did was make sure that things like IM and email clients are closed (their polling can interrupt CPU, and sound alerts are a pain) and check that daemons like ftp and web servin were disabled but thats more paranoia than really likely to produce a tangible benefit.

Conclusion :
Well it seems to work ok at first glance, but then again only more usage will show up problems (like the automation curve tool disappearing in gold 5!) the biggest problem appears to be lack of many, or mature drivers for hardware under X. going by experience it will be a while before drivers are mature - unlike the app which is a portng job, most drivers will have to be mostly re-written from scratch so it will take time for bugs to be ironed out. Likewise, most 3rd party plugs have not been ported to OSX yet which will cause many to stay in OS9 for a while. But it looks like a good start.

Notes since the above was written :
- According to emagic, the performance under osx should be the SAME as in os9. I believe this is due to the fact that the audio engine has not ben re-written to take advantage of threading under dual processors in OSX, but this hasnt been confirmed as the reason.
- Logic control is fully supported under Logic X.
- To import preferences from OS9 simply move file "/System Folder/Preferences/Logic 5 Preferences" to folder "/Users/YourUserName/Library/Preferences" and
rename it to "info.emagic.logic"
- Serial MIDI drivers are *not* availiable (or likely to be for a while)

Theres more interesting discussions in the LUG about this all - a more suitable place for it really (lenworx is already posting there I notice)

~Pev

DrGruv1

Sep 2, 2002, 05:33 PM

I think the company has gone mad... just read NO VST no other
formats ONLY core audio... oops

Our way only please - emagic's new mantra...

what the hell do they think their doing?

I've always used logic for their willingness to let other formats
and plugins exist inside...

Now logic 5.3 is only osx, so now I (we) have to stick on 5.2 for
another year while the other companies decide if they even want
to make their plugins core audio apple branded

They had better develop as os9 version AT THE SAME TIME and
not leave it behind and only concentrate on osx - the industry is
not ready let alone the end user

-Mike Droste
WindyTown.com

nuckinfutz

Sep 2, 2002, 05:58 PM

I think the company has gone mad... just read NO VST no other

Anytime you have an over proliferation of formats ie VST, MAS, RTAS, Audiosuite etc you have conflicts.

Audio Units are an attempt to expand the plugin market for Apple and Logic without the maddening amount of different formats and plugins. Stability should improve.

i've emailed no less than 6 companies and have heard that Audio Units will be coming for two of the companies. If Emagic is correct in stating that porting VST to Audio Unit is simple using their Library tool then I don't see this as much of an issue.

Developers will love that they can now sell Audio Units to work with ANY Core Audio app. Methinks All of Apple's apps that deal with Audio will seen be CoreAudio at their core. This increase the potential market for any developer selling plugins on the Mac.

VST's won't be going away. If MOTU decides to support them fine but the flexibility of Audio Units is going to be tough to beat

barkmonster

Sep 2, 2002, 06:31 PM

Surely once max & msp come out for OS X someone could make a Carbon VST Wrapper for audioUnits and then everyone will be happy.

From reading about OS X in the early days I think something like this would be possible with project builder aswell, I remember a review of OS X in Sound on Sound last year where a guy threw together some kind of software synth just using audioUnits and project builder.

I know it's still a waiting game but I'm hoping things will happen very quickly now all the other companies have got some actually competition under OS X now. The library emagic are supplying for other developers to use should also speed things along.

Pepzhez

Sep 2, 2002, 06:40 PM

Front what I can tell, apparently none. No offense, but you sound like every other "Linux is the only answer to everything" type I've ran into. The problem here is simple: There aren't any truly pro quality audio (or video or 3D for that matter) apps for Linux. Why? Because there's no money in it. So few people run Linux as a primary operating system that you make the Mac users look like the overwhelming majority in comparison. Companies can't afford to dedicate dozens of man years to a product that will only sell to a miniscule % of the population (and I'm not talking about Macs here, Logic has a couple hundred thousand installed copies). Any product with the development scope of a multitracking / sequencing / plugin supporting type like Logic, Pro Tools, CuBase or Digital Performer is a multi million dollar development process. You don't pour millions into something that if you're lucky you might get a 50-100K return on. It's suicide. Sorry to break any bubbles here, but that is fiscal reality.
Point 1: Why the hostility? If you would read my posts rather than jump to conclusions, you'll see that I've spent a lot of time attempting to get OS X to work properly with audio apps. You'll also see that I went as far as shelling out another $69 for Jaguar (only ten weeks after I spent $69 on OS 10.1). So I would say that hardly qualifies me as a "Linux is the answer to everything type". I have not invested in 5 differernet Macs and attendant software and OS X (twice!) in order to demonstrate my unfettered loyalty to Linux. My experiments using Linux are, as of now, just that - experiments that are well worth doing. I wanted to see if it worked or not. As for my running this experiment on a decidedly amateur imac G3, well, excuse for me for not tearing down the studio setup for a trial Linux experiment.

Point 2: Of course I agree with you on the limitations of USB audio. However ... whatever you think of USB audio devices - and I use them at home, not in the studio, if that pleases you to know - , if they work properly under OS 9.2 and Linux on the same damn machine, then it isn't all that unreasonable to expect them to perform in a similar fashion (that is, to function, period) with OS X. Is that so hard to understand? I think not. It is inescapably obvious that the problem is OS X and OS X only - NOT the USB device or the Mac hardware. The point is, if you own USB devices (and I do find them useful for shifting around location film sound recorded on DAT, as a USB interface - by your own calculations, even - has more than adequate bandwidth to handle a stereo 48 Khz signal; and if lowly, old school 48 Khz DAT does not fit your "pro" criterion, well, that is your problem and not mine.), you should quite naturally expect them to work as well on OS X as they did on 9.2.

Point 3: So you are a software designer. Unfortunately, you sound like one, i.e. - more concerned with myriad tech specs, its alleged "status" and how many millions of $$$ worth of R&D went into it. I am not a software designer and I couldn't care less about such extraneous details, particularly when it has nothing to do with the topic under discussion. I'm sorry, but "professional" is a relative concept. You are the one in possession of a "professional" fetish, not me. I, for one, wouldn't touch Cubase ever again with a ten foot pole, regardless of how many times the Steinberg product literature cares to tout its alleged "pro" status. And I don't care how many millions of dollars Steinberg may have poured into Cubase; that doesn't alter the fact that it is a clumsy piece of software with a nightmarish interface which simply screams that it was designed by a computer geek and certainly not a musician or audio engineer. At least that is my (and many others') opinion. Sorry to burst YOUR bubble, but I have worked on videos which were edited solely on a cheap imac (when our G4 network crashed), and the end result was what counted. People comment on the content; they don't speculate on or care how expensive the production equipment was.

Point 4: I do not do this work with an eye towards where the machinery and software rank in a popularity contest. I do not obsess over how many others are using Apple or Linux - or Windows, for that matter. Despite what you imply, there are some Linux apps available which do a more than adequate job at multitracking, audio editing and (yes) video editing. Are they as slick-looking and evolved as Logic or FCP? No. Will they run your favorite VST plugins? No. (But I don't use any VST plugins anyway, so it's not an issue to me. If this is an issue to you, then avoid Linux.) And if they just so happen to meet all of someone's particular needs, then why do you have a problem with that? As I've said before, I am experimenting with it. It may or may not turn out to cover all of my needs, and that is precisely what I am attempting to find out. It's either that or sit here listening to the pops and clicks emanating from OS X.

You are not breaking anyone's bubble here, except perhaps your own. Please stop projecting your techno-fetishes, your concerns with the vicissitudes of software market economics, and "professional" neuroses onto the people on this thread who are merely trying to get our audio setups to run properly under OS X, and feel compelled to look into alternatives which will work, should we not be able to get OS X to function as it should.

DrGruv1

Sep 2, 2002, 06:56 PM

All gone in Logic 5.3 from my setup

Auto-Tune 3 VST M/M
Auto-Tune 3 VST S/S
FM7
FM7 FX
NorthPole
PROSONIQ Orange Vocoder 1
PSP_VintageWarmer
PSPVintageWarmer files
Waldorf
WaveShell-VST 3.5

Now what...

Emagic has to make a dual os9 and osx development UNTIL ALL companies have come onboard

daveg5

Sep 2, 2002, 07:57 PM

Has any one herven tried OSX's first DAW Multi-track and what do myou think?
Is it further along than Logic?
Iknow it has limited midi.
But the trial seems to give good audio with the iMac
I am a logic user from the atari st days which i still have
I am also a cubae user from 3.0 to present and love thier dsp factory support
as i dont have to use software plugins as much.
My favorite though is DP3
I just need/want Yamaha dspfactory ds2416 support as it really takes the hit off the cpu.

lewnworx

Sep 2, 2002, 09:35 PM

Originally posted by Pepzhez
Point 1: Why the hostility? If you would read my posts rather than jump to conclusions, you'll see that I've spent a lot of time attempting to get OS X to work properly with audio apps.
And if you'd read mine, you'd have seen that I spent a fair bit of time explaining factually rather than emotionally what I had found to work. If you've ever seen my posts on the Logic Users forum, you'd see that I take the time to share my findings and solutions for problems rather than screaming about what's not working. The hostility was perception on your part, I was laughing on my end. I found it utterly amusing that you went on a major rant within the first day of a product's launch.
You'll also see that I went as far as shelling out another $69 for Jaguar (only ten weeks after I spent $69 on OS 10.1). So I would say that hardly qualifies me as a "Linux is the answer to everything type". I have not invested in 5 differernet Macs and attendant software and OS X (twice!) in order to demonstrate my unfettered loyalty to Linux.
If dropping $120 for an OS is cause for concern, you should be charging more for your work. You seemed to be fairly fixated on the fact that Apple charged for the OS upgrade. Are they supposed to do this for free? That was my point.
As for my running this experiment on a decidedly amateur imac G3, well, excuse for me for not tearing down the studio setup for a trial Linux experiment.
Point taken. Based on the rest of what I'd read, it appeared as though the iMac was your primary machine. A large number of heavy ranters often don't have even close to the right tools for the job, and when they fail, they blame the inadequate tools, rather then the poor judgement for not getting the right tools in the first place. Kudo's for having the sense to not tear apart a working rig. Many people don't.
If they work properly under OS 9.2 and Linux on the same damn machine, then it isn't all that unreasonable to expect them to perform in a similar fashion (that is, to function, period) with OS X. Is that so hard to understand? I think not.
Nope, not hard to understand at all. What's hard to understand is why you're setting yourself up to rage away at Apple. Did they make the non functioning USB widget? I'd bet the driver itself is probably not written to spec or 100% up to snuff for any number of reasons. Over the years I've learned a couple things:

1) Don't trust a dot zero release of anything. It's inherently going to have bugs.

2) Attempting to put a dot zero release into full on production on day one is just asking for it. That's the reason point releases exist. In a perfect world, everything would work like a champ on initial release. Unfortunately it's not, and it's physically impossible to test every combination of hardware and software out there. To expect it to perform flawlessly is really setting yourself up for failure. It's a lot safer to plan around it not working right and if it DOES work right it's all gravy. Just because the widget's 9.x driver worked correctly doesn't ensure it's 10x will.

3) More often than not, it's the product item in question's fault, not the OS. I've found this to be true with my own stuff. Once in a blue moon I'll catch something that truly is the OS's fault, but it's not very often. Usually it's do to not reading some minute bit of documentation on the OS's API's or something I've done. In this case I'd bet it's probably developer unfamiliarity with writing drivers for Core Audio. It's new stuff. It's probably not easy stuff. And because it's new it's going to take developers a bit to get the hang of it. It isn't fair to blanket Apple with all the blame for a 3rd party product not working, and by the same token you may want to cut the 3rd party guys a bit of slack as well. This is new for everybody involved. There is going to be some learning curve on all fronts.

My point here is that it would be far more productive to note that yeah, the stuff isn't working as it should, and report it to the parties involved than to rant about how OSX is a useless platform. I just had an issue with the absolute proclamation that it was utterly worthless. Unusable in some hardware and software combinations in it's present state, perhaps, but I found your statement to be a bid broad in scope.

So you are a software designer. Unfortunately, you sound like one, i.e. - more concerned with myriad tech specs, its alleged "status" and how many millions of $$$ worth of R&D went into it.

My point was that you stand a far better chance of getting usable SW when somebody has poured some real investment into it than some poor guy hacking away at it in a basement somewhere in his spare time. Not that I disdain the open source community at all. It's a noble cause, and I've even done my bit for it. I just wouldn't count on it for my bread and butter. How do you explain to your client you couldn't deliver because you put your trust in some guy in a basement that you have no commitment from of any kind? They aren't going to take that too well, and may even consider your judgement as dangerous.
I, for one, wouldn't touch Cubase ever again with a ten foot pole, regardless of how many times the Steinberg product literature cares to tout its alleged "pro" status. And I don't care how many millions of dollars Steinberg may have poured into Cubase; that doesn't alter the fact that it is a clumsy piece of software with a nightmarish interface which simply screams that it was designed by a computer geek and certainly not a musician or audio engineer. At least that is my (and many others') opinion.
Point well taken. As far as Cubase is concerned, I share the opinion completely. I didn't care to add fuel to the fire and get 5000 flames from Cubase lovers. I have friends whose band have managed to put out several quite successful albums with Cubase. It works for them. That doesn't mean I'd use it for any of my work.
Point 4: I do not do this work with an eye towards where the machinery and software rank in a popularity contest.
Nor do I. If I did I'd be running Cubase under Windows 98, or even worse I'd have dropped $50K on ProTools when it's completely overkill for my needs.
=)
And if they just so happen to meet all of someone's particular needs, then why do you have a problem with that?
I don't. I just have a problem with declaring OSX unusable because one particular combination of (admittedly) low end non pro hardware didn't work for you. If I were to show up on a video shoot with a $300 Magnavox camcorder as my front line rig expecting to shoot airable footage with it, any sane person with any amount of time in the field would be right to look at me sideways.
You are not breaking anyone's bubble here... FLAME SNIPPED ... trying to get our audio setups to run properly under OS X, and feel compelled to look into alternatives which will work, should we not be able to get OS X to function as it should.
No argument about trying to get it to work. No argument about looking into alternatives. I just think that expecting everything to work perfectly within a day of release [LAP] of an app, and a couple weeks of a major release of the OS [10.2] was way out there. Apple never proclaimed 10.0-10.1.x as a major audio platform. It wasn't until 10.2 that they made noise about addressing audio. I've been editing, mixing and working all day in LAP 5.3 under 10.2 without any hiccups outside of the midi thing I previously posted (as well as my fix for the problem).

Pepzhez

Sep 2, 2002, 10:57 PM

Ah, truce, lewnworx! I do think we are on the same side on this issue, aren't we? Your advice on getting things to work in OS X is something I will try. And I really hope I can get it to work.

I still think that Apple is not entirely blameless here; you are letting them off too easily. I've been promised time and time again by Apple tech support that "the next upgrade will fix everything". 10.1.3 was supposed to cure all ills, then 10.1.5, then Jaguar, then ... who knows? At least be honest and admit that these upgrades may be somewhat farther down the line than we'd all like. It's the runaround I've been getting from Apple that ticks me off more than anything else.

I'm still convinced that OS X is the culprit when it comes to USB devices. And I really don't understand why Apple can't get this to work right when all runs smoothly under OS 9. Again, I'm not a programmer, but USB-related issues don't seem to be all that complex in the general scheme of things. Perhaps I am wrong, though.

I'm certain that it will all be straightened out eventually, but meanwhile it sure is frustrating.

pev

Sep 3, 2002, 02:51 AM

Originally posted by Pepzhez
I'm still convinced that OS X is the culprit when it comes to USB devices. And I really don't understand why Apple can't get this to work right when all runs smoothly under OS 9. Again, I'm not a programmer, but USB-related issues don't seem to be all that complex in the general scheme of things.

Trust me, writing USB driver code is *not* easy!

~Pev

Wry Cooter

Sep 3, 2002, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by DrGruv1

They had better develop as os9 version AT THE SAME TIME and
not leave it behind and only concentrate on osx - the industry is
not ready let alone the end user

mmm..Who are 'they'? If an app is mature in OS 9 its mature, its there. Use OS 9. If it ain't cutting the mustard in 9, find something else. If 'they' is emagic, existing OS 9 bugs are not about to be addressed.

Maybe you are talking about VST instruments, or the world of various plug-ins out there.

The worst thing that could happen would be that Steinbergs and Digidesigns and others with a lot of invested code in plug ins etc for classic audio apps, will not feel that it is worth the effort to port to carbon or cocoa, to OS X plug ins etc, for the Mac because they believe eMagic Logic is somehow going to lock them out of the market. I think that is one of the last things eMagic wants... at least their release statement seems to be friendly to the idea of helping old plug in architectures port to OS X core audio, although it could be read as unfriendly.

tjwett

Sep 3, 2002, 11:57 AM

well now that we are all playing nice again i have a question. is there a safe way to remove unwanted USB drivers from OS 10.2? i know there are metric shi+load of them in there and i want to see if they are causing conflicts. is this possible or even necessary?

twelve

Sep 3, 2002, 12:31 PM

bottom line is that in OS 9 my audio setup works (including my crap usb imic) with some instability in OS.

when i port to OS X things do not work with my audio setup with stability in the OS.

tjwett

Sep 3, 2002, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by twelve
bottom line is that in OS 9 my audio setup works (including my crap usb imic) with some instability in OS.

when i port to OS X things do not work with my audio setup with stability in the OS.

hey, is this twelve from the Ableton board? cheers!

Wry Cooter

Sep 3, 2002, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by pev

Trust me, writing USB driver code is *not* easy!

~Pev

If it were, it would not be one of the primary sources of conflicts since its introduction.

Pepzhez

Sep 3, 2002, 08:12 PM

Yeah, I've been wondering the same thing about the USB extensions in OS X. We all know that the story from Apple has been that "extension conflicts just don't occur in OS X", but how true is that, really? I've never read anything about this issue. Has anyone else come across any info on this matter?

For example, I could tell during the Jaguar install that it was tossing a ton of extensions onto the HD - all manner of printer extensions that I'll never need. And who knows what else. I can't help but wonder that having so many extensions you neither want nor need on your system can only be a bad thing. Or is that just the conditioning I received from years of using OS 7-9?

Does anyone know anything about this?

tjwett

Sep 3, 2002, 08:55 PM

i just spent a little while digging thru my system folder and found a ton of crap that i don't want. from what i can see there is no way of getting rid of them without getting the message "System cannot be modified". maybe it could be done thru the Unix terminal but i've not a clue what to do in there.

Wry Cooter

Sep 3, 2002, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by Pepzhez
I can't help but wonder that having so many extensions you neither want nor need on your system can only be a bad thing. Or is that just the conditioning I received from years of using OS 7-9?

Does anyone know anything about this?

They do take up hard disk space

The differences between 9 and X regarding those hidden widgets....

In X they usually load only when and if you need them.

In 9 they loaded in case you might need them.

In X if they do cause a crash, they usually only crash one program.

In 9 they pulled down the entire system.

In X they are hidden, what you can't see shouldn't worry you.

In 9 they are more easily seen in case they have been worrying you.

With both 9 and X, it is likely a fresh install might overwrite something that works, with something that doesn't work; and vice versa.

nickgold

Sep 4, 2002, 12:14 AM

Originally posted by Pepzhez
I still think that Apple is not entirely blameless here; you are letting them off too easily. I've been promised time and time again by Apple tech support that "the next upgrade will fix everything". 10.1.3 was supposed to cure all ills, then 10.1.5, then Jaguar, then ... who knows? At least be honest and admit that these upgrades may be somewhat farther down the line than we'd all like. It's the runaround I've been getting from Apple that ticks me off more than anything else.

I'm still convinced that OS X is the culprit when it comes to USB devices. And I really don't understand why Apple can't get this to work right when all runs smoothly under OS 9. Again, I'm not a programmer, but USB-related issues don't seem to be all that complex in the general scheme of things. Perhaps I am wrong, though.

I'm certain that it will all be straightened out eventually, but meanwhile it sure is frustrating.

How long have you been using computers? Not to dis, but your attitude sounds very newby-esque. Apple cannot promise you that all problems will be fixed with the next release, and to expect otherwise is naive, and ignorant of the way that computing works, and always has worked (and probably always will).

If OS X doesn't work for your audio setup, keep using OS 9. There's a reason Apple makes it so their machines can dual-boot without any hitches at all. Take advantage of that, and stop whining. Now is the best time ever to be using Logic on ANY platform, including OS 9.x. I mean geez, we finally get multi-outs and other greatness for VST and other virtual instruments, not to mention tooons of other f eatures that were released between 5.0 and 5.2... and people still whine like babies! It never ceases to amaze me. (But then again, I do tech support for a major computer company, and the amount of truly amazingly stupid calls we get is astounding...)

Keep using OS 9 for audio, for at least a few more months, if your setup is currently having problems under 10.2. It's not like it stopped working when this new version of Logic came out! In fact, it's working better than it ever has! Shut up already!

As for those of us having a TON of fun jamming in Logic for OS X... Rock on, and let the fun begin! I have been waiting for Logic for OS X for well over a year. Whooo! :D Now I just gotta wait for Absynth audiounit...

tjwett

Sep 4, 2002, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by nickgold
...If OS X doesn't work for your audio setup, keep using OS 9. There's a reason Apple makes it so their machines can dual-boot without any hitches at all. Take advantage of that, and stop whining. Now is the best time ever to be using Logic on ANY platform, including OS 9.x. I mean geez, we finally get multi-outs and other greatness for VST and other virtual instruments, not to mention tooons of other f eatures that were released between 5.0 and 5.2... and people still whine like babies! It never ceases to amaze me. (But then again, I do tech support for a major computer company, and the amount of truly amazingly stupid calls we get is astounding...)

Keep using OS 9 for audio, for at least a few more months, if your setup is currently having problems under 10.2. It's not like it stopped working when this new version of Logic came out! In fact, it's working better than it ever has! Shut up already!

As for those of us having a TON of fun jamming in Logic for OS X... Rock on, and let the fun begin! I have been waiting for Logic for OS X for well over a year. Whooo! :D Now I just gotta wait for Absynth audiounit...

that is a very good attitude to have. i was initially bummed about my Logic X issues but i'm in the process of sorting them out and after all, OS9 is sitting right there with all my plugins ready to go. although it would be nice to be totally in X i think i still have a decent wait ahead of me. so for now i'm doing general computing(email, web, etc.) in OS X and then boot into OS 9 to get some work done. no big deal. all the time i've wasted stressing about be on the cutting edge could have been better spent creating something and enjoying myself.

Pepzhez

Sep 4, 2002, 03:39 PM

In X they usually load only when and if you need them.
It is precisely the "usually" part that leads me to wonder whether extension conflicts can indeed occur in OS X. OS X does not give us an extension control panel because *in theory* there is no need for one. But what is the *reality* of this? I guess that it is possible that OS X could load something that could lead to a conflict.

Right now I am doing a clean, minimal install of OS 10.2. In addition to following the tips on this thread, I also will (and hope!) that the problems are solved. I can't help but think that having all those useless (for me) drivers sitting around in the HD is somehow asking for trouble at some point. So I'll eliminate some and see if that's true or not.

As for nickgold's comments ... (sigh) Why are so many people around here incapable of comprehending a text? I had mentioned several times that the instability of OS 9 is a problem for me. Go back and read what I wrote - I'm not going to reiterate here. I've also been using computer since the mid-1980's, if you'd really like to know.

As for this:

Apple cannot promise you that all problems will be fixed with the next release, and to expect otherwise is naive, and ignorant of the way that computing works, and always has worked (and probably always will).

If you read my previous posts, you'd see that this is PRECISELY what various Apple tech people have been promising me since 10.1. Granted, I've since learned not to believe a word they are saying, so I'll concede that my initial optimism was, in retrospect, rather naive. Even so, Apple shouldn't be promising fixes that are not really forthcoming "on the next update".

So why don't you "shut up already". Until and unless you learn how to actually listen to what people are saying, don't fool yourself that you're capable of forming a logical response.

Wry Cooter

Sep 4, 2002, 07:26 PM

FWIW, I have had more USB conflicts in 8.6 through 9.1 than I have with OS X. Most drivers, from Apple and the third parties both, were sort of going through a 'public beta' of sorts during that time (in other words, USB hell) . This includes , printers, storage (zip, CD-r), WebCams, Digital Cameras, Joysticks, game controllers, tablets, and Audio gizmos, such as Tascams US 428, which I have only tested for audio, not midi.

For what its worth, there is more 'stability' now, althought that may be a case of it either works, or doesn't work at all. Also the rough period through 8.5 - 9.x for USB made be very careful and wary regarding making sure I found the latest drivers for OS X. It really has gone more or less smooth as silk other than one of my two printers choosing to be the default, which I could change. You want the USB driver horror stories with os X, you could probably sift through Macintouch reports- mostly powerbooks, and people whose printers were orphaned. But my impression it is much less of a worry much more plug and play than it was.

I commonly keep two printers, and a scanner on the USB hub plus the keyboard and mouse, and often a mouse or tablet as well, with no problem whatsoever. Regarding USB, I am much happier with OS X. Whatever drivers are there for those devices do not seem to conflict at all, when of course, they did quite often in OS X, and you would have to set up extension sets.

Of course the problem can compound when you are really trying to flood the USB bandwidth, which is possible with audio/midi. I certainly wouldn't want to pipe more than two - four simultaneous tracks either way through USB, along with all the controller data that might be in the pipe as well, whether it is possiible or not. But Firewire outboard stuff is becoming available, although at a price.

I don't know if the following is particularly germane, but I bookmarked it just in case; they are links to apple tech notes on Jaguar, including the links to the audio and midi layer...

http://developer.apple.com/technotes/tn2002/tn2053.html