Why is Windows so bloated?

[R.Youden]

I was playing around with my girlfriends PC (she also has an eMac and iBook, don't worry!) as I want to set it up on a KVM with my old PowerMac. Anyway I tried connecting my Apple Pro keyboard to the Windows box. Why oh why is it so difficult! On a Mac you plug it in and off it goes, works perfectly. On Windows you have to wait to install 3 drivers! For God's sake it is a keyboard! Help me if I try to install something complex. I thought USB was plug and play, not plug - wait 5 minutes - then tentatively play until it crashes!

<Hugs MBP>

[R.Youden]

Oh no, I am just as bad! I put <Hugs MBP> in my post! :eek:

[yellow]

Strange, I never had a problem getting a WinXP box to recognize an Apple keyboard. No drivers needed.

[bearbo]

I was playing around with my girlfriends PC (she also has an eMac and iBook, don't worry!) as I want to set it up on a KVM with my old PowerMac. Anyway I tried connecting my Apple Pro keyboard to the Windows box. Why oh why is it so difficult! On a Mac you plug it in and off it goes, works perfectly. On Windows you have to wait to install 3 drivers! For God's sake it is a keyboard! Help me if I try to install something complex. I thought USB was plug and play, not plug - wait 5 minutes - then tentatively play until it crashes!

<Hugs MBP>

forgive me, but i think you are bloated.

does keyboard not need drivers?
did you provide proper driver so it does not crash?

one can say the samething about OS X cannot take those graphic cards designed for Windows.

[R.Youden]

Strange, I never had a problem getting a WinXP box to recognize an Apple keyboard. No drivers needed.

Thats the other thing that gets me, why are no two versions of Windows the same? They have 63 different versions of XP and you cant do the same thing on two machines.

[R.Youden]

forgive me, but i think you are bloated.

does keyboard not need drivers?
did you provide proper driver so it does not crash?

one can say the samething about OS X cannot take those graphic cards designed for Windows.

Indeed I agree, but to the same extent at least we know they dont work. For crying out loud this is a keyboard with two USB ports in. I had to get another keyboard that I had used on the machine and connect both to the PC to press Return to contine with the installation! Why doesnt Windows pre install generic keyboard drivers?

[bearbo]

Thats the other thing that gets me, why are no two versions of Windows the same? They have 63 different versions of XP and you cant do the same thing on two machines.

i've been able to replicate everything i want to do on all the Windows XP boxes, and they behave the same...

again, i think you are the one thats bloated, not windows. any capable person can run any OS just dandy

but apparently you cannot

[R.Youden]

again, i think you are the one thats bloated, not windows. any capable person can run any OS just dandy

but apparently you cannot

Hello Mr High And Mighty! Get out of the wrong side of bed today did we?

The point I was trying to make is that Microsoft just make things to difficult for themselves. This is the reason that I use a mac, at work I have had to set up far more complex Windows systems than your normal "PC Box" and it has been so tedious. They just need to get back to basics and make sure things run well. I dont know what Vista will be like but I hope they make things far more user friendly. Unlike some of the users on this board today!

[codo]

I get bored of these threads. I'm sure people get bored of reading people saying they get bored of reading these threads.

Just absurd comments. Windows is fine, check your drivers - It takes two minuets...

[yellow]

again, i think you are the one thats bloated, not windows. any capable person can run any OS just dandy

but apparently you cannot

I think that is uncalled for. It's perfectly reasonable for someone to complain about product X being more difficult to configure/use than expected.

Just because your experiences may vary doesn't give you license to **** on someone who doesn't have the same experience.

[bearbo]

Hello Mr High And Mighty! Get out of the wrong side of bed today did we?
i'm not the one complain about my inability to use correct driver for keyboard



The point I was trying to make is that Microsoft just make things to difficult for themselves. This is the reason that I use a mac, at work I have had to set up far more complex Windows systems than your normal "PC Box" and it has been so tedious. They just need to get back to basics and make sure things run well. I dont know what Vista will be like but I hope they make things far more user friendly. Unlike some of the users on this board today!

i'm not sure if i doubt about the bolded part, or the rest of them... they just don't seem consistent

Unlike some of the users on this board today!
are you saying i'm not user friendly? this does not even make sense

maybe you are indeed the one got out the wrong side of the bed.. if you even got out the bed

I get bored of these threads. I'm sure people get bored of reading people saying they get bored of reading these threads.

Just absurd comments. Windows is fine, check your drivers - It takes two minuets...

exactly.

[R.Youden]

I get bored of these threads. I'm sure people get bored of reading people saying they get bored of reading these threads.

Just absurd comments. Windows is fine, check your drivers - It takes two minuets...

I agree there is nothing wrong with Windows in general. I just can't fathom how Apple can get "simple" (yes simple not gfx cards etc) so right but a Windows machine (only two months old) has such difficulty. Is this a general thing or machine specific. If it is specific to a particular machine then fine but I dont see this is reason for board members to accuse others of being incompetent!

[bearbo]

I think that is uncalled for. It's perfectly reasonable for someone to complain about product X being more difficult to configure/use than expected.

Just because your experiences may vary doesn't give you license to **** on someone who doesn't have the same experience.

i wouldn't have been "uncalled for" if he didn't make those subjective comments because of his own ... unsuccessful experience.

i didn't see he complain about apple keyboard... and i'd believe if he try to plug in a "PC webcam" in mac, he'd be cursing the PC webcam rather than OS X

my point is, i cannot stand when people think windows XP is trash because something they didn't do right

[IJ Reilly]

I've had similar issues with XP and USB devices. The keyboard on my XP box never has worked entirely correctly. The numeric keypad doesn't function in some situations, and the other day the mouse simply stopped working. I had to reboot the PC to get it going again. I've also had to reinstall the keyboard drivers on occasion. This is something I've I never had to do on a Mac. The Mac has always been better at plug-and-play than Windows. I don't know why anyone would want to defend Microsoft on this count.

[R.Youden]

I am not saying something didn't go right did I now? The keyboard works fine, my point is why did it take so bloody long to install and why was it so difficult (or painfully slow for want of a better term). And also please dont question my statements about how much PC knowledge I have when you dont know anything about it.

[R.Youden]

I've had similar issues with XP and USB devices. The keyboard on my XP box never has worked entirely correctly. The numeric keypad doesn't function in some situations, and the other day the mouse simply stopped working. I had to reboot the PC to get it going again. I've also had to reinstall the keyboard drivers on occasion. This is something I've I never had to do on a Mac. The Mac has always been better at plug-and-play than Windows. I don't know why anyone would want to defend Microsoft on this count.

I can't believe we have two incompetent users on this board; we must both me banned and never allowed back on!

[bearbo]

I agree there is nothing wrong with Windows in general. I just can't fathom how Apple can get "simple" (yes simple not gfx cards etc) so right but a Windows machine (only two months old) has such difficulty. Is this a general thing or machine specific. If it is specific to a particular machine then fine but I dont see this is reason for board members to accuse others of being incompetent!

i am not saying you are incompetent. i'm sure you are since you can "set up far more complex Windows systems than your normal "PC Box" and it has been so tedious"

at least, i'm not saying you are incompetent in general, just maybe in that specific or particular case

back to the topic, i think the reason the keyboard causing windows crash is because the driver is not right. and that's understandable from all perspective in that windows might not have provided the driver specific for apple keyboard (or at least the driver is not 100% compatible). so unless you find the correct driver somehow and install that, it's not the keyboard nor windows' fault

i agree a lot of cases OS X is much simpler than windows, but this is not one of them.

[yellow]

i didn't see he complain about apple keyboard... and i'd believe if he try to plug in a "PC webcam" in mac, he'd be cursing the PC webcam rather than OS X

Which means you didn't even really read the post, you just read the title, got mad, skimmed the post(s) and got busy with your angry pokes at the OP's skills with a computer.

my point is, i cannot stand when people think windows XP is trash because something they didn't do right

That's fine, that's your opinion, however it's far more constructive for you to say exactly that, rather than accusing him of being "bloated" and/or incompetent. Your posts appear to be argumentative to me.

If you want to get right down to it, the claim (title) that Windows is "bloated" is pretty much the opposite of what the OP is claiming to have troubles with, as a "bloated" OS would undoubtedly have all the drivers already available. Which apparently isn't the care here. So, the thread title has little to do with the heart of the post. But this is semantics and pointing it out wasn't constructive to the original post.

[IJ Reilly]

i agree a lot of cases OS X is much simpler than windows, but this is not one of them.

Actually, it is one of them. In my experience, anytime you expect plug-and-play performance, you're far more likely to get it on the Mac.

[yellow]

so unless you find the correct driver somehow and install that, it's not the keyboard nor windows' fault

From a technical standpoint, yes it IS Window's fault.
The lack of a correct driver shouldn't cause the whole OS to belly-up.
It should, at the very least, be designed to bitch and complain.
Which I believe WindowsXP is designed to do.

It could just as easily be an issue with the USB port or the motherboard's firmware. Which has nothing to do with Windows, or drivers.

[R.Youden]

Which means you didn't even really read the post, you just read the title, got mad, skimmed the post(s) and got busy with your angry pokes at the OP's skills with a computer.



That's fine, that's your opinion, however it's far more constructive for you to say exactly that, rather than accusing him of being "bloated" and/or incompetent. Your posts appear to be argumentative to me.

If you want to get right down to it, the claim (title) that Windows is "bloated" is pretty much the opposite of what the OP is claiming to have troubles with, as a "bloated" OS would undoubtedly have all the drivers already available. Which apparently isn't the care here. So, the thread title has little to do with the heart of the post. But this is semantics and pointing it out wasn't constructive to the original post.

I agree to an extent what you mean about the title. What I meant to say is that it is bloated because it takes so much more effort to make the system run. What fustrated me is that you need three things to make a PC or Mac work: A keyboard, mouse and monitor. It is not as if I was using an Apple Bluetooth or a keyboard with a million and one extra keys for emails etc and I complaied that they where not mapped because this is to be expected in some cases. But why can I plug a keyboard for Windows into a mac and it works fine (except the crazy mail and www keys which I accept wont work) but I can't plug a basic 109 key layout into a Windows machine and it doesnt work?

I have set up some complex servers that travel all over the world and communicate with a single factory and they run Windows Server and I think that it is great, never had any real problems. But as soon as I run Windows XP home edition (which I am sure the vast majority of people use) it take 5 minutes to make the keyboard work?

[Eidorian]

I find that OS X is just as bloated at Windows XP in terms of file size and drivers.

I just find that Windows' implementation is TERRIBLE. You get prompted to death for drivers (even if you already have them) and mounting a drive requires you to repeat the same steps every time if you've never mounted it before. It's very annoying when you're giving presentations and 2-3 minutes are wasted just waiting for flash drivers to mount.

[bearbo]

Which means you didn't even really read the post, you just read the title, got mad, skimmed the post(s) and got busy with your angry pokes at the OP's skills with a computer.



tell me when OP says anything negative about the keyboard

now who's presuming?


If you want to get right down to it, the claim (title) that Windows is "bloated" is pretty much the opposite of what the OP is claiming to have troubles with, as a "bloated" OS would undoubtedly have all the drivers already available. Which apparently isn't the care here. So, the thread title has little to do with the heart of the post. But this is semantics and pointing it out wasn't constructive to the original post.
i dont think its necessary to discuss what did the OP had in mind when he said bloated.

[bearbo]

Actually, it is one of them. In my experience, anytime you expect plug-and-play performance, you're far more likely to get it on the Mac.

that's your experience, mine (anybody else i know in person) differs, at least in that aspect.

[R.Youden]

tell me when OP says anything negative about the keyboard

Why should I complain about a keyboard that has worked fine on a number of machines for the last 5 years?

[codo]

You don't buy your computer from Microsoft. You do from Apple.

Apple integrates it's "drivers", it's done, and ready.

I suggest people who have these problems take issue with their vendor for either - Not making the installation simple enough with good guides or automated driver installation from a CD, or for providing you with crap drivers.

I don't have a Mac because I can't install drivers, I have a Mac because I wanted a different approach. I liked the look and feel of OS X, and I love Final Cut in comparison to Premier and Liquid. Anyone using the Mac platform thinking they are immune from any software problems is deluded and ignorant. I could list things that annoy me about both, but I'm not here to flame, I'm just here to make a point that has been made a million times before, and will likely be made a million times more.

Lets end this, honestly. It's so repetitive and dull, and I suppose I'm adding to the annoyance by posting. So I'm done on the issue.

[bearbo]

From a technical standpoint, yes it IS Window's fault.
The lack of a correct driver shouldn't cause the whole OS to belly-up.
It should, at the very least, be designed to bitch and complain.
Which I believe WindowsXP is designed to do.

It could just as easily be an issue with the USB port or the motherboard's firmware. Which has nothing to do with Windows, or drivers.

i think all OS has that fault to a large extent, so relatively, it's not Windows' fault, it's a technical barrier

[bearbo]

I agree to an extent what you mean about the title. What I meant to say is that it is bloated because it takes so much more effort to make the system run. What fustrated me is that you need three things to make a PC or Mac work: A keyboard, mouse and monitor. It is not as if I was using an Apple Bluetooth or a keyboard with a million and one extra keys for emails etc and I complaied that they where not mapped because this is to be expected in some cases. But why can I plug a keyboard for Windows into a mac and it works fine (except the crazy mail and www keys which I accept wont work) but I can't plug a basic 109 key layout into a Windows machine and it doesnt work?
I have set up some complex servers that travel all over the world and communicate with a single factory and they run Windows Server and I think that it is great, never had any real problems. But as soon as I run Windows XP home edition (which I am sure the vast majority of people use) it take 5 minutes to make the keyboard work?

i did not have perfect plug n play experience with windows mouse/keyboard work on my mac... i had a microsoft mouse, that the mac will just not take.. it'll move irratically despite how i change the preference.

i will not comment any further on the 2nd paragraph

[bearbo]

I find that OS X is just as bloated at Windows XP in terms of file size and drivers.

I just find that Windows' implementation is TERRIBLE. You get prompted to death for drivers (even if you already have them) and mounting a drive requires you to repeat the same steps every time if you've never mounted it before. It's very annoying when you're giving presentations and 2-3 minutes are wasted just waiting for flash drivers to mount.

that i will agree with you, in some cases windows is indeed less user friendly and confusing than a mac

edit: sorry i did not merge posts, please forgive me (or a mod can merge them and remove the 2 latter ones)

[yellow]

tell me when OP says anything negative about the keyboard

now who's presuming?

You're presuming that anyone would understand what this post means.

[R.Youden]

i will not comment any further on the 2nd paragraph

Why not? Do you have a problem with it? All I am doing is relaying my experiences, sorry if they are not a vast as yours, oh sorry I am making an asumption here.

[bearbo]

i didn't see he complain about apple keyboard... and i'd believe if he try to plug in a "PC webcam" in mac, he'd be cursing the PC webcam rather than OS X

Which means you didn't even really read the post, you just read the title, got mad, skimmed the post(s) and got busy with your angry pokes at the OP's skills with a computer.


tell me when OP says anything negative about the keyboard

now who's presuming?


You're presuming that anyone would understand what this post means.

gosh.. clear enough?

[yellow]

i did not have perfect plug n play experience with windows mouse/keyboard work on my mac... i had a microsoft mouse, that the mac will just not take.. it'll move irratically despite how i change the preference.

So.. is it OK for me to assail your skills with a Mac because I have used tens of Microsoft mice successfully with many flavors of OS X without having to install IntelliPoint?

gosh.. clear enough?

Yes, I remember it quite clearly. I just didn't see the point of you bringing it up. So you simply wanted to point out that apparently I was guilty of skimming posts as well, without actually admitting that you were also guilty of this? You must be a Republican. ;)

I think I'll stop bantering with you as it's accomplishing absolutely nothing for the OP problems with Windows XP Home and an Apple Keyboard.

[bearbo]

Why not? Do you have a problem with it? All I am doing is relaying my experiences, sorry if they are not a vast as yours, oh sorry I am making an asumption here.

because if i were to say anything, i was gonna say i have run and seen people run XP home without any problem. you should be able to too. if you cannot, well, there's something you didnt do right

but of course, i want to be nicer

i did not claim i have more experience or as much experience as you do, but i am saying i have never had problem like this, nor have i known anyone that did.

where on this ********* planet did i say you made a assumption?

[bearbo]

So.. is it OK for me to assail your skills with a Mac because I have used tens of Microsoft mice successfully with many flavors of OS X without having to install IntelliPoint?

sure if you want to, however i didn't start a thread bitch about OS X nor the mouse



Yes, I remember it quite clearly. I just didn't see the point of you bringing it up. So you simply wanted to point out that apparently I was guilty of skimming posts as well, without actually admitting that you were also guilt of this? You must be a Republican. ;)
i wanted to point out that you are wrongly accusing me of doing somethign i did not. i read each post word by word.

i did not say you skim through posts with out reading them, and i dont like if you say i skim through posts without reading them.

[R.Youden]

if you cannot, well, there's something you didnt do right

THATS my point! How much can I do wrong with a keyboard, hmm lets see, plug in the USB port and then I have to, erm wait no I dont think I should have to do anything else with a keyboard.

I came to the assumption in the same way that you assumed I was bloated and didn't know how to use a PC.

[Eidorian]

I'm still extremely perplexed on what "bearbo" is trying to get at. The drivers were there and the keyboard worked just fine in Windows. At worst the OP uses "bloated" as "poor hardware installation implementation". The keyboard works just fine. On OS X is just WORKS on Windows it WORKS TOO but requires a lot of user input and progress bars as the drivers install.

Scary stuff for an inexperienced user when you're asked about drivers when they're already supplied in Windows.

[R.Youden]

I'm still extremely perplexed on what "bearbo" is trying to get at. The drivers were there and the keyboard worked just fine in Windows. At worst the OP uses "bloated" as "poor hardware installation implementation". The keyboard works just fine. On OS X is just WORKS on Windows it WORKS TOO but requires a lot of user input and progress bars as the drivers install.

Scary stuff for an inexperienced user when you're asked about drivers when they're already supplied in Windows.

Thanks for the sensible post. What I suppose someone could of said was "hmm, I have never had any problems with keyboards on my Windows machine, you may have a problem with your drivers but it is not a general Windows problem".

[IJ Reilly]

I find that OS X is just as bloated at Windows XP in terms of file size and drivers.

I just find that Windows' implementation is TERRIBLE. You get prompted to death for drivers (even if you already have them) and mounting a drive requires you to repeat the same steps every time if you've never mounted it before. It's very annoying when you're giving presentations and 2-3 minutes are wasted just waiting for flash drivers to mount.

You and I should introduce ourselves to bearbo, because apparently nobody he's actually met has these problems with Windows.

[clevin]

I was playing around with my girlfriends PC (she also has an eMac and iBook, don't worry!) as I want to set it up on a KVM with my old PowerMac. Anyway I tried connecting my Apple Pro keyboard to the Windows box. Why oh why is it so difficult! On a Mac you plug it in and off it goes, works perfectly. On Windows you have to wait to install 3 drivers! For God's sake it is a keyboard! Help me if I try to install something complex. I thought USB was plug and play, not plug - wait 5 minutes - then tentatively play until it crashes!

<Hugs MBP>

they all have pros and cons, i can also ask, why oh why my 20GB external harddrive can't work properly in OSX? OSX can recognize it, buy never been able to open any file on it, it works fine under windows? do i have to abandon my harddrive?

[bearbo]

THATS my point! How much can I do wrong with a keyboard, hmm lets see, plug in the USB port and then I have to, erm wait no I dont think I should have to do anything else with a keyboard.

I came to the assumption in the same way that you assumed I was bloated and didn't know how to use a PC.

okay.. let me try to be constructive here

1. despite all other problems windows had.. were you ever able to connect any usb keyboard to that particular machine? probably yes
2. was any keyboard connected to that machine right before you yanked it and stuffed the apple keyboard in there? probably yes
3. was the previous keyboard working okay? probably yes
4. so the previous keyboard worked, but apple keyboard didnt... that could me one of three things

a. the driver windows had for generic usb keyboard is somewhat different than the one apple keyboard uses
b. the driver was corrupted the instant you yanked the previosu keyboard
c. that particular apple keyboard unit is defective

i think it's (a)

therefore in order to solve that problem, you can
a) not use that keyboard since the driver is somewhat different
b) introduce to windows the right driver
c) not do anything, but post on macrumor about your experience, so people will also be cautious with using apple keyboard on windows machine

i think (b) will probably be good... however another problem arose, how do you get the proper driver?
a) ask apple for one?
b) search on the internet for one that's closest to it

a) might not be good because apple probably does'nt make them for windows
b) will probably be your best bet.

i only came to that assumption because it seems to me that if you know your way around it, it shouldn't take you long to figure out a solution.

[bearbo]

You and I should introduce ourselves to bearbo, because apparently nobody he's actually met has these problems with Windows.

(please do so, i cannot help but say that i dont know you, not in real life anyway)

please also enlighten me what could be the problem that my microsoft mouse does not work properly on my MBP, but fine on my IBM? please don't be sarcastic, as that's a real question.

[R.Youden]

I did no "yanking" of cables. I shut down the PC. Removed the keyboard and rebooted as I always have done. Upon the machine booting it took 5 minutes for Windows to install "Generic USB keyboard driver". Now my opinion is that a generic driver is something that should have been installed when I first installed the OS. Its not a huge thing to consider that people may use a generic keyboard?

[bearbo]

I did no "yanking" of cables. I shut down the PC. Removed the keyboard and rebooted as I always have done. Upon the machine booting it took 5 minutes for Windows to install "Generic USB keyboard driver". Now my opinion is that a generic driver is something that should have been installed when I first installed the OS. Its not a huge thing to consider that people may use a generic keyboard?

oh excuse my choice of words

i believe everytime you plug in a new device (how OSs know its a new device altho same brand/model as before is beyond me), it register with the system, and system install a new copy of driver for that device... but this time, the system mistakenly thought apple keyboard is same as generic usb keyboard... how can apple be generic

but of course, with your vast knowledge, you would definitely know this more accurate and more correct than i do

[clevin]

I did no "yanking" of cables. I shut down the PC. Removed the keyboard and rebooted as I always have done. Upon the machine booting it took 5 minutes for Windows to install "Generic USB keyboard driver". Now my opinion is that a generic driver is something that should have been installed when I first installed the OS. Its not a huge thing to consider that people may use a generic keyboard?

there are always something a OS couldn't do as good as you expected, for windows, OSX, or linux. and your first post has a weird title, what you said really can't be a proof of windows being "bloated".

[dextertangocci]

It's because winblows sucks;)

[breakfastcrew]

ha ha your girlfriend's pc sucks because that never happens to me.

[ddekker]

not sure why a keyboard issue is blaming windows on being bloated.. as far as the keyboard goes I have never had a problem with plugging just about anything into my PC's... I have had issues with some things on the mac just not working... but I think this was a trolling post...

DD