Why is the green "plus" button so broken?

[EvryDayImShufln]

Hey guys

I've come to a conclusion today: the only time I ever press the green plus button at the top left of windows is to switch between mini itunes and big itunes.

If I use it in safari, it makes my window tiny and unusable. All I want is a proper maximize button like in windows! At least, if its not gonna maximize, if it had some sort of pattern to how it worked, that would be fine too. Instead I'm scared to push it.

If I use it in quicktime, you would think it would fit screen. Instead it does nothing.

Can anybody explain how this button works and if I'm missing something here?

[CashGap]

Green button toggles between "Standard State" and "User State". Read more than you care to here: http://www.xvsxp.com/interface/max_vs_zoom.php, or search for a dozen threads titled "I just switched from Windows and I think I know more about UI design than Apple".

[Fuchal]

Hey guys

I've come to a conclusion today: the only time I ever press the green plus button at the top left of windows is to switch between mini itunes and big itunes.

If I use it in safari, it makes my window tiny and unusable. All I want is a proper maximize button like in windows! At least, if its not gonna maximize, if it had some sort of pattern to how it worked, that would be fine too. Instead I'm scared to push it.

If I use it in quicktime, you would think it would fit screen. Instead it does nothing.

Can anybody explain how this button works and if I'm missing something here?

It is not a maximize button. It resizes the window to the width and/or height of the content being displayed inside.

[tersono]

Every time I use an Adobe app, I thank the Gods that Apple have designed the re-size button intelligently rather than the way it works in windows.

I hit that little green button and the window re-sizes to fit within toolbars and palettes. I hit it again and it re-sizes the way I had it set before.

It's one of the most useful but under-appreciated features of the OS.

[dpaanlka]

All I want is a proper maximize button like in windows!

All I want is people to stop and think about what that button is actually for.

[TheStu]

Now, to be fair to the OP, the + button is broken in the new Quicktime. It does not work on my PowerBook, my MacBook, my mother's MacBook, my sister's MacBook, my friend's iBook or his MacBook Pro.

However, I love the smart resize that it does. I have Zoom (the technical term for it apparently) tied to Command+Shift+Z for all my apps, and with one hit of that, windows resize to get rid of the scroll bars as best as they can.

I never really liked full screening my windows in Windows anyway although that seemed to be how you had to do it sometimes... this is so much better for multi-tasking.

[Quillz]

Note that the green button has always, in fact, been more of a "smart fit" feature. In fact, the only way to officially maximize any given window is to do it manually by dragging the diagonal lines at the bottom right of each window.

[dukebound85]

All I want is people to stop and think about what that button is actually for.

lol ok. the green button is useless to me. i wish it would do what i want which is maximize

[iBunny]

There needs to be a 4th button which maximizes the screen.

[TheSpaz]

I never use it. I only use it in iTunes which it has a totally different behavior.

[JNB]

While over on the WindowsRumors site, someone's bitching about how the "big square button" doesn't properly resize the window and takes up the whole damn screen... :D

[whooleytoo]

While it's wrong to move from Windows and complain that Apple hasn't adopted the Windows conventions (particularly since most MacOS conventions were around first), I think there is a genuine criticism of the 'zoom' button.

It's too inconsistant. I believe in an old version of the Finder, clicking would switch between expanding just big enough to show the contents, clicking again would return to the original size. Option-Clicking would essentially maximise the window. And other applications followed suit, so you knew what would happen when you clicked it.

Now, who knows what happens when you click it in different apps?

(I did just notice if you Option-click it in Finder, it does move the window to the top-left corner, but doesn't maximise it. I didn't know that..)

[HLdan]

lol ok. the green button is useless to me. i wish it would do what i want which is maximize

Boy oh boy, I really sometimes have to wonder why do people leave Windows in favor of the Macintosh when they want the Mac to work like Windows. :rolleyes:

[lofight]

I'm sometime having trouble with this two, but i actually almost never use it..

[SthrnCmfrtr]

If you want a real shocker, click it while running Calculator :D

[dpaanlka]

lol ok. the green button is useless to me. i wish it would do what i want which is maximize

Well a maximize button is useless to me. So why should Apple change it so that I, a long time Mac user, has to re-learn a convention, just so you, a comparatively short time Mac user, feels comfortable?

[Matek]

Boy oh boy, I really sometimes have to wonder why do people leave Windows in favor of the Macintosh when they want the Mac to work like Windows.
Just because OS X is a very good operating system overall and probably better then windows, it doesn't mean it's perfect. There are a plenty of features in other OSes that are really neat and could be implemented, so OS X can be criticised like any other OS.

While it's wrong to move from Windows and complain that Apple hasn't adopted the Windows conventions (particularly since most MacOS conventions were around first), I think there is a genuine criticism of the 'zoom' button.

It's too inconsistant. I believe in an old version of the Finder, clicking would switch between expanding just big enough to show the contents, clicking again would return to the original size. Option-Clicking would essentially maximise the window. And other applications followed suit, so you knew what would happen when you clicked it.

Very well said. I would be very happy if the + button actually did what it's supposed to do - increase the window to fit all the content or at least the maximum amount. I understand Apple can't force all app makers to implement this functionality properly, but at least they could do it themselves. Some apps (itunes, calc, ...) use it to switch modes, others use it to fit content. And even that is very inconsistent - Finder, for example, doesn't maximise your window if you are in a folder with many many files, which would seem the logical option to display as many files as possible. It stretches the window vertically, but it doesn't stretch it horizontally.

Although maximisation is an option brought from windows, i think it has a very acceptable function - if you focus on using an application (edit a photo in an editor, browse a page in a browser, whatever), it usually makes sense to focus on that single application - having it expand over your entire workspace seems reasonable. It's true that non-maximised windows are cool for multitasking, but on some occasions maximised windows are useful too. I'm not saying the + option should be removed, but there should definitely be an option to maximise too.

[vansouza]

Green button toggles between "Standard State" and "User State". Read more than you care to here: http://www.xvsxp.com/interface/max_vs_zoom.php, or search for a dozen threads titled "I just switched from Windows and I think I know more about UI design than Apple".

Naughty, you might get coal for Christmas; but funny nonetheless.

[GSMiller]

Now, to be fair to the OP, the + button is broken in the new Quicktime. It does not work on my PowerBook, my MacBook, my mother's MacBook, my sister's MacBook, my friend's iBook or his MacBook Pro.

However, I love the smart resize that it does. I have Zoom (the technical term for it apparently) tied to Command+Shift+Z for all my apps, and with one hit of that, windows resize to get rid of the scroll bars as best as they can.

I never really liked full screening my windows in Windows anyway although that seemed to be how you had to do it sometimes... this is so much better for multi-tasking.

Yea it is broken in QuickTime, it doesn't even do anything with you click it.

When I first switched it took me a little while to get used to windows not taking up the entire screen, and now I think it makes you way more productive and can't stand on window to cover the whole desktop when working in Windows.

[TheStu]

It all has to do with different mentalities... frankly, when I am surfing the web, I don't like to have the browser take up the whole screen. I like being able to see my side-dock and Adium list at all times. In fact, the only app that I have take up close to the entire screen would be iTunes simply because I like coverflow. Most everything else, i prefer discrete, smaller windows over 1 large window. That was one of the reasons that I really am not over the moon about tabs on everything. It makes sense to me to have it for a browser... but a text editor? Finder with tabs? Seriously?

Anyway, back to the initial topic... the resize toggle is great, though I do agree with another that OS X should either have A: a preference pane that lets you switch from the + allowing you to maximize the window or smart resize or B: a fourth jewel up there.

[Loge]

Seems odd to call it Windows, when people just want to maximise all the time.

Maximise is a fall back to when we had small screens.

[HLdan]

Maximizing to the full screen made SOME sense long, long ago when desktop computer screens were 13" and with much lower resolutions. Still back in the day I never maximized when I was stuck using... well Windows:( Now all computer screens are wide screens and maximizing makes ZERO sense especially since most websites do not cater to wide screens.

So to you all Windows viewers maximize your browsers to full screen and see how many websites fill the whole screen, you won't find many and most of them end up over to the left side of the screen.

At any rate even websites that fully support wide screen LCD's I just never maximize the web browser, I feel claustrophobic and I need to have access to the rest of my computer.

[EvryDayImShufln]

To all you jokers criticizing because you think that I want OS X to BE windows, you couldn't be more wrong. I just want a consistent green button, like several people stated, and maximizing is one answer to this.

For Safari: I like to center my window, stretched to fill the screen top to bottom and have gaps at both sides so I can draw images to my desktop. When I click the green button, it turns my window into this tiny little window taking up 1/5th of the screen and unusable. If I click it again, nothing happens. What good is that? It doesnt even freakin' toggle!

For Quicktime: as everybody said, 100% broken.

For Finder, it works well IMO.

For iTunes: perfect.

So I guess my complaint was mainly for Safari and Quicktime, but keep in mind that these programs are very often used and quirks and inconsistencies relating to them are very noticed.

[HLdan]

To all you jokers criticizing because you think that I want OS X to BE windows, you couldn't be more wrong. I just want a consistent green button, like several people stated, and maximizing is one answer to this.

For Safari: I like to center my window, stretched to fill the screen top to bottom and have gaps at both sides so I can draw images to my desktop. When I click the green button, it turns my window into this tiny little window taking up 1/5th of the screen and unusable. If I click it again, nothing happens. What good is that? It doesnt even freakin' toggle!



Well, yes you are saying you want it to be Windows because you are still not seeing it the "Mac way", the way you want it IS the Windows way.
Now take a look at when you click the zoom button and the browser flies all the way over to the left side of the screen and just fills up 1/5 of the screen.
You say it's unusable. Actually it's not, you are just focusing on it turning into a thinner looking window on the side of the screen.
Do you notice any horizontal scroll bars when this happens? No, because the content still fills the window. That's the way it's suppose to be, it's not doing anything wrong.

It goes over to the corner because web browser don't generally cater to wide screens. Next time you play with Windows do the full screen thing and check out a few websites and you will notice 2 different things. One will show the content smack dab in the middle. Another will show the content over to the left side and very few will fill the whole screen.

Dude, you will get used to it but Apple uses a logic system and Microsoft chose not to. The Windows way is really retarded.
Even on Mac Rumors full screen makes the posts stretch all the way from left to right, it's hard to read posts that way.

[danny_w]

Well, yes you are saying you want it to be Windows because you are still not seeing it the "Mac way", the way you want it IS the Windows way.
Now take a look at when you click the zoom button and the browser flies all the way over to the left side of the screen and just fills up 1/5 of the screen.
You say it's unusable. Actually it's not, you are just focusing on it turning into a thinner looking window on the side of the screen.
Do you notice any horizontal scroll bars when this happens? No, because the content still fills the window. That's the way it's suppose to be, it's not doing anything wrong.

It goes over to the corner because web browser don't generally cater to wide screens. Next time you play with Windows do the full screen thing and check out a few websites and you will notice 2 different things. One will show the content smack dab in the middle. Another will show the content over to the left side and very few will fill the whole screen.

Dude, you will get used to it but Apple uses a logic system and Microsoft chose not to. The Windows way is really retarded.
Even on Mac Rumors full screen makes the posts stretch all the way from left to right, it's hard to read posts that way.
That would be a great argument IF the use of the button were consistent. Unfortunately, as many above me have pointed out, it isn't, and sometimes it even does nothing. OS X is full of such contradictions, and this is just one of them (hopefully Leopard is better, but I have not tried it yet). I love OS X too (I switched when the mini came out and will never go back) but it is not perfect.

[HLdan]

That would be a great argument IF the use of the button were consistent. Unfortunately, as many above me have pointed out, it isn't, and sometimes it even does nothing. OS X is full of such contradictions, and this is just one of them (hopefully Leopard is better, but I have not tried it yet). I love OS X too (I switched when the mini came out and will never go back) but it is not perfect.

Leopard doesn't do it any different, as I mentioned earlier Mac OS X is a logic based system. Could you please enlighten me on the inconsistencies and what about it that doesn't work all the time? I'm not seeing what you mean.

[TheStu]

Leopard doesn't do it any different, as I mentioned earlier Mac OS X is a logic based system. Could you please enlighten me on the inconsistencies and what about it that doesn't work all the time? I'm not seeing what you mean.

He is referring to (I believe) the fact that in Safari, the (+) resizes the window so the horizontal scroll area is as small as possible (meaning, that it resizes the window to try and fit the width of the page, nothing more).

In Calculator, (+) switches between standard, scientific, and some other, really cool looking mode for hex and binary and stuff.

In iTunes, (+) switches between showing you everything and the miniplayer

In Quicktime, (+) is broken and does nothing

Are you seeing it now?

[TheStu]

That would be a great argument IF the use of the button were consistent. Unfortunately, as many above me have pointed out, it isn't, and sometimes it even does nothing. OS X is full of such contradictions, and this is just one of them (hopefully Leopard is better, but I have not tried it yet). I love OS X too (I switched when the mini came out and will never go back) but it is not perfect.

Nothing is perfect, though i am sure that HLDan would love to tell us why we are wrong about OS X not being perfect.

Frankly, the inconsistencies would irk me more if I needed it for more things than Safari and Word Processing (where it accomplishes the same function). I guess part of the issue comes from it being a plus sign really. Think about it. X closes the window, it does that in every application (in some it also quits the app). The minus minimizes the window... that also makes sense. But with it being a + you immediately think 'X closed it, - minimized it... this must either maximize it or simply make it larger'. It is logical to think that. If it were an ampersand, then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, because the symbol would have nothing to do with the functionality, which would be best since the functionality is different based on the app that you are using (which makes sense... are you really going to need to maximize Calculator?)

Perhaps that should be the larger issue. Not whether or not a person is stuck on Windows conventions, or OS X conventions, but rather the button choice is poor (on Apple's part) in that it does not always function as it would logically be assumed to function based on its peer's functionality.

[neonblue2]

QuickTime is not ********** broken! It's just that you haven't set the second state for the Zoom button to resize to. Go open a video and hit the Zoom button. Nothing, right? Now drag the corner and hit the Zoom button. OMG! It behaves normally!

[6mt15]

Personally I've never had a problem with the zoom, but I grew up with Macs. You just need to keep in mind that is has different but useful purposes with each application. If you don't like reading a webpage in the size that it was meant to be viewed in, move your hand a total of 10", and you have manually resized it for your viewing pleasure!

[neonblue2]

Personally I've never had a problem with the zoom, but I grew up with Macs. You just need to keep in mind that is has different but useful purposes with each application. If you don't like reading a webpage in the size that it was meant to be viewed in, move your hand a total of 10", and you have manually resized it for your viewing pleasure!

There was nothing to fix!

[dukebound85]

Boy oh boy, I really sometimes have to wonder why do people leave Windows in favor of the Macintosh when they want the Mac to work like Windows. :rolleyes:

except i never left windows. have been using macs since well forever at home. whats wrong to want to maximize a screen????

[dukebound85]

Well a maximize button is useless to me. So why should Apple change it so that I, a long time Mac user, has to re-learn a convention, just so you, a comparatively short time Mac user, feels comfortable?

short term mac user? ok i guess since you know me haha. ive been using macs since early 1990s. family has had nothing but macs since before I was born.......

they should change it since its useful. wtf does the green button do. its almost random in its behavior

i guess unlike you, i can see flaws in apple related products and dont see everything apple does as "perfect"

what's wrong with having the option again? oh yea since YOU dont need it right lol

oh yea...seems im older than you which mean YOU are the relatively short term mac user lol. dont ever assume about people hows that?

[dpaanlka]

short term mac user? ok i guess since you know me haha. ive been using macs since early 1990s. family has had nothing but macs since before I was born.......

That's difficult to believe from your posts, but OK.

they should change it since its useful. wtf does the green button do. its almost random in its behavior

People in this thread explained it to you many times. There are also many other threads about it. How could you be such a long time Mac user and still not get it.

i guess unlike you, i can see flaws in apple related products and dont see everything apple does as "perfect"

That couldn't be further from the truth.

what's wrong with having the option again? oh yea since YOU dont need it right lol

You literally just said it should be changed - despite the fact that a lot of people posted saying they want it the way it is. Why? Just because YOU don't like it the way it is?

You also haven't really explained why "zoom to fit" is not a good idea. Why do you need any window to be bigger than the content it is displaying? Don't give use that "it helps me focus" bit either - people that say that probably still need training wheels on their bicycles.

oh yea...seems im older than you which mean YOU are the relatively short term mac user lol. dont ever assume about people hows that?

Being older doesn't mean you've used Macs longer. Besides, I think that was a reasonable assumption since you're ranting about how you want to maximize everything, which I don't think most people who have had Macs for 10+ years would be doing. I guess thats a second wrong assumption I made - that you would be able to pick up on it's purpose by now.

Besides, you can't be more than 6 months older than me.

[TheStu]

QuickTime is not ********** broken! It's just that you haven't set the second state for the Zoom button to resize to. Go open a video and hit the Zoom button. Nothing, right? Now drag the corner and hit the Zoom button. OMG! It behaves normally!

When i first got my Mac, I distinctly remember the (+) button switching it between starting size and fit to screen size. Perhaps I am wrong, I am not infallible.

[Cloudane]

With apologies to the "Everything Apple does is Perfect" crowd (this is a Mac site after all), there have been some good points raised regarding the green button being one of the small bunch of flaws in OS X that scream out "bad usability" and would make Jakob Nielsen want to hit things. And yes I've studied HCI and user interface design and all that business.

Doing things differently is fine (I'd never maximise anything on a 20" screen anyway, YUCK), the slogan is "Think Different" after all. However doing things inconsistently is not, it confuses and frustrates the user. Users are saying "why is it doing xyz?" to computers enough as it is (I hear it from my mother at least every half hour) without the OS adding to it. Another area where this happens is the Finder. One minute it's a browser style window (that one was a Microsoft invention AFAIK, when they integrated Internet Explorer with Windows Explorer in IE4 / Win95OSR2), the next minute it's a spatial window (no buttons/toolbar/etc), it can't seem to make its mind up which it is especially with .dmg's. I'm not the only one to have mentioned this.

Having said that, the OP was doomed from the moment he mentioned the word "Windows". That automatically gets most of the forum population here into "attack mode" and makes them lose all sense of logic or objective opinion. Windows was a bad argument from the outset, not helped by the fact that it has some terrible usability issues of its own. (E.g. installing Office: Ooh a progress bar that goes to the end... and then starts from the beginning again! That's informative! Gives you that nice "walking up an escalator that's going down" feeling.)

To balance out the OS X / Windows arguments, OS X has its fair share of actual *bugs* too. E.g. Safari and form buttons. At the bottom of this edit window I have "Cancel", "Go Advanced" or "Cancel". I think I'll hit the first "Cancel", that ought to save it!

[FreakinSyco]

I'll chime in. Now that we have spaces i feel that the green button should maximize. I want itunes full screen on one desktop, safari full screen on one, mail full screen on one, unision/transmission/otherapp on the other and I have ichat set to appear in all spaces and with a click in the dock its on top.

Anyway at least option/shift/command click maxamize.. no reason for that not to be added.

[CashGap]

When i first got my Mac, I distinctly remember the (+) button switching it between starting size and fit to screen size. Perhaps I am wrong, I am not infallible.

It was probably still switching between "Standard State" and "User State", but either Standard or User were being constrained by the screen size.

The button didn't change, the screens did.

[HLdan]

Nothing is perfect, though i am sure that HLDan would love to tell us why we are wrong about OS X not being perfect.
need to maximize Calculator?)



Dude, get over yourself, I appreciate you not talking about me in the 3rd party. You can post directly to me and for the record your attitude is just like many who would rather join a bunch of negative people rather than point out anything good. You are just like misery who loves company. Also, if Apple's OS X is a bother for you I think Microsoft makes...what's it called???

[HLdan]

Hopefully this should put this thread to rest. This link will show both pluses and minuses of the Zoom (Mac) Maximize (Windows) button. Both show strengths and weaknesses so there is no "right way". Personally I still think maximizing to a full browser screen is stupid as it hampers my work but anyway check this out.
http://www.xvsxp.com/interface/max_vs_zoom.php

[jim.arrows]

There needs to be a 4th button which maximizes the screen.

If nobody's said it already (haven't finished the whole thread), double-clicking the Title Bar should maximize, double-clicking a 2nd time should return it to normal (like Windows); zoom button should remain as is.

[TheStu]

Dude, get over yourself, I appreciate you not talking about me in the 3rd party. You can post directly to me and for the record your attitude is just like many who would rather join a bunch of negative people rather than point out anything good. You are just like misery who loves company. Also, if Apple's OS X is a bother for you I think Microsoft makes...what's it called???

I love using OS X, and really hate having to use Windows... but that doesn't mean that I have to blindly think that everything in OS X is the best possible thing with no room for improvement.

My point was that I have been seeing you post stuff where if anyone questions why OS X does something a certain way, regardless of whether or not they mention Windows, you show up and start spewing this drivel about how they are wrong, Apple, OS X, Steve Jobs and you are right, and if they don't like it, they can get the F out. Seriously, is that kind of zealotry necessary? It is just an Operating System after all, nothing more, nothing less.

And for the record, I get just as annoyed at the Vista Zealots on another forum i frequent. Or those that come to MacRumors and spout off about how *****ty the OS is and why can't it be more like Windows. Why o why did Steve Jobs personally break my computer!

I wouldn't rather join a bunch of negative people, I would like to join a group of people that are willing to look at things relatively objectively and say "Huh, that could be better" or "You know, it really would be great if OS X had this Windows feature (or vice versa)" without getting their panties in a twist over the fact that someone deigned to speak poorly about the Great and Powerful OS X.

[portent]

There are basically two sides to this debate.

One is, "I want it to maximize." The other is, "Zooming is the better behavior, because it makes optimal use of screen real estate."

See the difference? There is a logical justification behind one of these arguments. See if you can tell which one.

Then there is a corrolary to the first argument, which says, "Zooming is bad, because some applications don't zoom properly, like iTunes." However, this is still not a valid argument against zooming. It is merely a powerful indictment of some boneheaded interface designers at Apple, who seem to gain more and more control with every release.

[psychofreak]

Personally I really like the zoom button, it makes perfect sense to me (apart from in QT, when sometimes I expect it to go Fullscreen)...

[Cloudane]

I think perhaps an opt-click would be a good idea due to all the switchers these days. Or a third party hack... there's a good shareware market for someone :)

As I've said on this forum before, with the current screen sizes I think a great option would be something that removes everything else... wallpaper, icons, dock, other windows, everything... and leaves just the window of the app you have open at whatever size you set on a plain or lightly patterned non-distracting background. Basically the same idea as maximise, without the ridiculous width you'd get on today's screens.

Writeroom (http://hogbaysoftware.com/products/writeroom) has the right idea.

[dpaanlka]

I love using OS X, and really hate having to use Windows... but that doesn't mean that I have to blindly think that everything in OS X is the best possible thing with no room for improvement.

You keep saying that we're all "blindly" following Apple, when in fact everyone that has posted in favor of the current function of the zoom button has given you pretty compelling evidence that it is the better way. The best that the pro-maximize people can come up with is "I want to focus" - which is nonsense. You just keep blindly ignoring the argument being made.

There is almost never, ever a need to maximize anything. Deal with it.

[danny_w]

This discussion is going nowhere fast. Nobody on either side of the issue can seem to see and respect that other people don't have the same preferences they do. Come on, people, it is preference more than anything else. And unfortunately Apple doesn't like giving you preferences. That is the one place where I have always liked Windows, because they give you a choice in many things where Apple does not (not in this issue, but in many other cases). Really, that's all I want, a choice. Give me the OPTION to zoom or to maximize. Regardless of what some on here say, there are times where they both have their place. Please remember the first word in USER interface!

[volvoben]

I'll agree that this conversation is not headed anywhere useful, but here are is my view:

I'd love maximize...especially on my macbook i always maximize windows. OS X made it easy by handing us expose to switch between windows, so i maximize what i'm working on, then switch with expose. why would i want to waste portions of the screen while i'm surfing the web or whathaveyou? instead of scrolling around i'm looking at what i want to see.

There is of course a point after which most windows don't need to be maximized, but for me that's after the 1680x1050 mark, and for me production programs such as CS3 are still maximized even on a 30".

Adobe got it perfect with CS3 with their options to maximize your workspace, or even cut out the dock etc. and just have a black background. but they left the old free floating windows option for people such as my girlfriend who despise anything maximized. i always maximize CS3 to the first option; if i'm working on a photo that's what i want to see; i have a second monitor if i need a finder window or something, and expose as well.

Point is apple should just give the option somewhere instead of leaving a button on every window that many folks won't use (often because what it will do is a bit of a mystery).

[TheStu]

You keep saying that we're all "blindly" following Apple, when in fact everyone that has posted in favor of the current function of the zoom button has given you pretty compelling evidence that it is the better way. The best that the pro-maximize people can come up with is "I want to focus" - which is nonsense. You just keep blindly ignoring the argument being made.

There is almost never, ever a need to maximize anything. Deal with it.

I was talking about HLDan's blind following of Apple... not anyone else's... and if you read back, I am on YOUR SIDE!!!! I think maximizing windows is stupid, especially on widescreen monitors, and especially on OS X.

I am not blindly ignoring crap. I am talking about people like HLDan (him specifically really, so the rest of yall are cool...) that if they see someone question the ways of OS X get all huffy about it, and start talking about how the other person is an idiot for not 'getting it' essentially. So how am I in the wrong?

Also, how about you, for blindly ignoring the other 3 freaking paragraphs that I have in my post that you quoted? You know, where i clarify what I am talking about.

[HLdan]

I love using OS X, and really hate having to use Windows... but that doesn't mean that I have to blindly think that everything in OS X is the best possible thing with no room for improvement.


I wouldn't rather join a bunch of negative people, I would like to join a group of people that are willing to look at things relatively objectively and say "Huh, that could be better" or "You know, it really would be great if OS X had this Windows feature (or vice versa)" without getting their panties in a twist over the fact that someone deigned to speak poorly about the Great and Powerful OS X.

You know what? I actually agree with you wholeheartedly except for one thing. I have been on the Mac for 10 years now and not only did I start on Windows and used it for 3 years I went to school for computer science and learned only on Microsoft's DOS, yeah the hard way of programming. Now, I totally feel that OS X has room for improvement and no matter what Apple adds to it people will always complain what it's lacking.

My issue with your views as well as others is that NOBODY makes a suggestion on new ways to improve OS X, all they say is "This button in OS X should work "LIKE WINDOWS". That gets tired because it sounds as if Windows is the right way and those people as well as yourself should be running Windows, right? It makes zero sense to refer back to some other OS and suggest that the Mac should do it the way the other OS does it.

If you want improvement it's makes more sense to suggest new ways to improve the system rather than say, "The Mac should do this and that "LIKE WINDOWS".
Now, would like to hear my suggestion to improve OS X? After all of these years of evolution (especially since I feel that OS X is way ahead of Windows) I think that Apple should be able to make the OS start up instantly and no boot time.
Another suggestion, Apple should allow the user to change the look of the UI in any way we see fit as long as it doesn't change OS X's functionality. I for one don't want my Mac to look like someone else's and I hate haxies.

I am having a real issue with Apple about not creating Mail, AddressBook and iCal into one program. They are all in sync with each other but I have to open 3 different programs?
See those are all features I would like see improvement that has nothing to do with comparing it to Windows.

I don't see the Nintendo Wii mimicking features of the Xbox or the PS3 and the Wii it outselling all of them and remember the Nintendo used to be the underdog. You stay ahead by doing something new and different.

[dukebound85]

That's difficult to believe from your posts, but OK.



People in this thread explained it to you many times. There are also many other threads about it. How could you be such a long time Mac user and still not get it.



That couldn't be further from the truth.



You literally just said it should be changed - despite the fact that a lot of people posted saying they want it the way it is. Why? Just because YOU don't like it the way it is?

You also haven't really explained why "zoom to fit" is not a good idea. Why do you need any window to be bigger than the content it is displaying? Don't give use that "it helps me focus" bit either - people that say that probably still need training wheels on their bicycles.



Being older doesn't mean you've used Macs longer. Besides, I think that was a reasonable assumption since you're ranting about how you want to maximize everything, which I don't think most people who have had Macs for 10+ years would be doing. I guess thats a second wrong assumption I made - that you would be able to pick up on it's purpose by now.

Besides, you can't be more than 6 months older than me.

wow guess im crazy for suggesting a feature i think would be more useful than what it does now which is pretty random in my opinion. so sue me

(wonders why numerous threads on this have been posted if everyone knows it:rolleyes: and i bet if you ask the avg mac user, they have no idea what it does!)

the reason i said i want maximize is because unlike some people here, i have to use a variety of os's and kind of like how some things are done in windows. if anything it keeps me focused from other apps. (once again (wonders why there are apps such as think (http://freeverse.com/apps/app/?id=7013) that try to emulate this but not quite maximize is it :rolleyes:)

i could care less how long/much you use macs...good for you ill find a cookie. just dont assume stuff about people namely me

whatever lets just call a truce lol

[TheStu]

You know what? I actually agree with you wholeheartedly except for one thing. I have been on the Mac for 10 years now and not only did I start on Windows and used it for 3 years I went to school for computer science and learned only on Microsoft's DOS, yeah the hard way of programming. Now, I totally feel that OS X has room for improvement and no matter what Apple adds to it people will always complain what it's lacking.

My issue with your views as well as others is that NOBODY makes a suggestion on new ways to improve OS X, all they say is "This button in OS X should work "LIKE WINDOWS". That gets tired because it sounds as if Windows is the right way and those people as well as yourself should be running Windows, right? It makes zero sense to refer back to some other OS and suggest that the Mac should do it the way the other OS does it.

If you want improvement it's makes more sense to suggest new ways to improve the system rather than say, "The Mac should do this and that "LIKE WINDOWS".
Now, would like to hear my suggestion to improve OS X? After all of these years of evolution (especially since I feel that OS X is way ahead of Windows) I think that Apple should be able to make the OS start up instantly and no boot time.
Another suggestion, Apple should allow the user to change the look of the UI in any way we see fit as long as it doesn't change OS X's functionality. I for one don't want my Mac to look like someone else's and I hate haxies.

I am having a real issue with Apple about not creating Mail, AddressBook and iCal into one program. They are all in sync with each other but I have to open 3 different programs?
See those are all features I would like see improvement that has nothing to do with comparing it to Windows.

I don't see the Nintendo Wii mimicking features of the Xbox or the PS3 and the Wii it outselling all of them and remember the Nintendo used to be the underdog. You stay ahead by doing something new and different.

What is wrong with a comparison point?

I read an article on DaringFireball recently, basically saying that Apple needs a contemporary. Much like how Canon has Nikon, Audi has BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, etc... Microsoft isn't really doing a whole lot to innovate (in my opinion at least) and Linux seems to be in a state of 'Anything you can do, i can do 5 times as many ways in 3 times as many steps' (again, just my opinion and based on my own personal observations). So, Apple is sort of sitting there with no one really to push them.

So, saying that Windows does something better than OS X, or wanting functionality from Windows is nothing bad. Take file sharing on Tiger for example. I hated it. Almost never did it, i would sneaker-net the files via my thumbdrive before I tried to send them via the network. XP did file sharing a million times better. All I had to do was simply right click on a folder and press SHARE. Now, it is possible that i was missing something crucial, but no one I knew could figure out how to easily share files on OS X either.

Enter Leopard, where all I have to do is turn on File Sharing, give the other person access and wah-la! They can get to my files. My friend and i do this all the time (and screen sharing, which rocks!) since although it might be a tad slower (we both usually go wireless) it is so much easier IMO.

And I have been seeing compromises in this thread, adding another button so that those that want to maximize the windows (although it does seem to be against the OS X philosophy) can, and those that want the smart resize feature can do that as well. Or, as you suggested just now, more inherent customization within the OS, much like how you can already customize almost every toolbar in every app, if you could take that further... add tabs to apps (or not), more view features... all that.

[EvryDayImShufln]

Wow this discussion really got out of hand

To the people that keep yelling "OMG quicktime user settings were not set! That's why it doesnt work! Blah blah I'm a fanboy!" it infact does NOT work, it doesn't even stick to after you quit the program. If you can tell me a solution that does not involve jumping through flaming hoops backwards, I will admit my mistake in thinking that the "green button is broken".

[kaiwai]

lol ok. the green button is useless to me. i wish it would do what i want which is maximize

For what purpose? are you unable to use an application as a Window - or do you need the whole screen dominated by one application? if you're going to do that, you might as well move back to DOS and single task.

[dukebound85]

For what purpose? are you unable to use an application as a Window - or do you need the whole screen dominated by one application? if you're going to do that, you might as well move back to DOS and single task.

oh i can use an application as a window. it's what i do most of the time. i will say when coding or writing reports its nice to be able to see one app (easy for me to check mail, itunes, etc and get sidetracked)

sometimes app isolation is nice while running more than one app. i personally seldom use the green button as i dont know what it will do half the time so i manually adjust windows

do you use the green button?

why are people giving me such a hard time on my opinion is what i want to know and suggest i move to windows lol. i will never make another contrasting opinion that is outside of "apple's way"

[lil'homunculus]

i have set my appearance to 'graphite' in system preferences. Therefore, I have no 'green' button. Maybe this will help the thread starter with his conundrum... :p
Personally i have no problem with the 'Multi-functionality' of this feature, as all programs are not created equal. Already pointed out previously in this thread: calculator has no need to be full screen, so mac, in their infinite wisdom, endows the third button with a very interesting and useful feature to toggle between different types of calculator. cool factor=10. iTunes toggles between screensize or nicely manageable- 'eensy', 'weensy', 'teensy' module. again, cool factor=10. Personally i am never interested in full screen mode unless i am viewing pron, so this type of toggle feature is of limited value to me. Fair enough, mac could include a shortcut feature for this, or someone on macrumors may be able to provide a script in order to shut this inane thread down, no? Days like this, i wish i was a programmer. Godspeed.

[dukebound85]

i have set my appearance to 'graphite' in system preferences. Therefore, I have no 'green' button. Maybe this will help the thread starter with his conundrum... :p
Personally i have no problem with the 'Multi-functionality' of this feature, as all programs are not created equal. Already pointed out previously in this thread: calculator has no need to be full screen, so mac, in their infinite wisdom, endows the third button with a very interesting and useful feature to toggle between different types of calculator. cool factor=10. iTunes toggles between screensize or nicely manageable- 'eensy', 'weensy', 'teensy' module. again, cool factor=10. Personally i am never interested in full screen mode unless i am viewing pron, so this type of toggle feature is of limited value to me. Fair enough, mac could include a shortcut feature for this, or someone on macrumors may be able to provide a script in order to shut this inane thread down, no? Days like this, i wish i was a programmer. Godspeed.

i agree, for some apps it is quite nice, some apps i dont know why it does what it does. i just wish for the option thats all

[lil'homunculus]

"I am having a real issue with Apple about not creating Mail, AddressBook and iCal into one program. They are all in sync with each other but I have to open 3 different programs?See those are all features I would like see improvement that has nothing to do with comparing it to Windows."

Personally, i do not use iCal or Addressbook. So why would I want the added bloat when opening the program that i want to use??? The Density of this thread boggles the mind.

[lil'homunculus]

P.S., i'm just funning you, that's all:p

[kaiwai]

oh i can use an application as a window. it's what i do most of the time. i will say when coding or writing reports its nice to be able to see one app (easy for me to check mail, itunes, etc and get sidetracked)

sometimes app isolation is nice while running more than one app. i personally seldom use the green button as i dont know what it will do half the time so i manually adjust windows

do you use the green button?

why are people giving me such a hard time on my opinion is what i want to know and suggest i move to windows lol. i will never make another contrasting opinion that is outside of "apple's way"

*shrugs* I certainly don't get side tracked; Pages loaded up, and so I start typing.

Nope, the only time I clicked on it was an accident.

"Apple's way" - no hon, everyone did it Apple's way many moons ago; like I said on an other forum, there is the Microsoft way and the rest of the know universe. Don't automatically assume that Microsoft is the 'correct way'.

[dukebound85]

*shrugs* I certainly don't get side tracked; Pages loaded up, and so I start typing.

Nope, the only time I clicked on it was an accident.

"Apple's way" - no hon, everyone did it Apple's way many moons ago; like I said on an other forum, there is the Microsoft way and the rest of the know universe. Don't automatically assume that Microsoft is the 'correct way'.

guess i get distracted easily, esp when work needs to get done haha. i dont assume MS to be the correct way hence why i use apple products. just saying not everything apple does is awesome and not everything MS does is bad.

[dpaanlka]

I was talking about HLDan's blind following of Apple... not anyone else's... and if you read back, I am on YOUR SIDE!!!! I think maximizing windows is stupid, especially on widescreen monitors, and especially on OS X.

I don't even understand this thread anymore. I've lost track of who supports what. My post just sort of shoots out at people who want to maximize anything. "You" are those people.

I do get all huffy when people insist they want to take what is a feature of Mac OS (fit to content) and have it replaced with primitive maximizing so that it works "just like Windows."

There is no reason to maximize. It just makes you less productive.

I'm also getting tired of people coming here to MacRumors and getting enraged at people for defending the Mac OS, as if we should just politely accept any criticism, however unfounded it may be. The "fanboy" card is getting really overplayed here.

[djellison]

My god the vitriolic hatred emanating from the fanboys is disgusting.

I love my Mac, I like OSX, but I too, would like a window to maximize to full screen from time to time. Trying to focus on one thing, one task, one app - with corners of other apps sticking out the side is a distraction sometimes.

And because of that, it seems that people here want me sent back to DOS for some reason.

Think different? Nah - think EXACTLY LIKE US OR GO SCREW YOURSELF.

It's pathetic.

Doug

[WildPalms]

My god the vitriolic hatred emanating from the fanboys is disgusting.

I love my Mac, I like OSX, but I too, would like a window to maximize to full screen from time to time. Trying to focus on one thing, one task, one app - with corners of other apps sticking out the side is a distraction sometimes.

And because of that, it seems that people here want me sent back to DOS for some reason.

Think different? Nah - think EXACTLY LIKE US OR GO SCREW YOURSELF.

It's pathetic.

Doug

Did you not read dpaanlka's post above? You just placed yourself in that same group playing the fanboy card. Thanks for the input 'Doug'.

[djellison]

How about a middle ground?

Not "THIS IS WRONG - MAKE IT LIKE WINDOWS"

or "LIKE WINDOWS? GO SCREW YOURSELF!"

However about.. "Perhaps the option to do either should be available?"

Somehow - the most hideous of all fanboys can not possibly comprehend such a thing. Your either with them, or you're a windows loving moron who needs to be ridiculed for not agreeing with every single minute detail of the OSX GUI. There is simply no way that that is a valid stance for an adult to have.

Doug

[snickelfritz]

http://www.apple.com/applescript/toolbar/index.html

[dukebound85]

My god the vitriolic hatred emanating from the fanboys is disgusting.

I love my Mac, I like OSX, but I too, would like a window to maximize to full screen from time to time. Trying to focus on one thing, one task, one app - with corners of other apps sticking out the side is a distraction sometimes.

And because of that, it seems that people here want me sent back to DOS for some reason.

Think different? Nah - think EXACTLY LIKE US OR GO SCREW YOURSELF.

It's pathetic.

Doug

Thanks, I thought I was all alone in my thinking


How about a middle ground?

Not "THIS IS WRONG - MAKE IT LIKE WINDOWS"

or "LIKE WINDOWS? GO SCREW YOURSELF!"

However about.. "Perhaps the option to do either should be available?"

Somehow - the most hideous of all fanboys can not possibly comprehend such a thing. Your either with them, or you're a windows loving moron who needs to be ridiculed for not agreeing with every single minute detail of the OSX GUI. There is simply no way that that is a valid stance for an adult to have.

Doug

Funny how just by MENTIONING a maximize function, people tell me go back to windows, its not productive, no advantages at all, must not like os x, etc

How ironic it would be if apple implemented this in some fashion and then all the people here criticizing me now will be praising the changes because apple did it haha

[dpaanlka]

Funny how just by MENTIONING a maximize function, people tell me go back to windows, its not productive, no advantages at all, must not like os x, etc

It is less productive, and whatever slight advantage it may have in some obscure situation is overshadowed by how lousy it is for all other situations. All maximizing does is train people to be comfortable only working with one window at a time, and to experience confusion at multiple windows or any other sort of multi-tasking.

Just look at any average Windows users - they literally maximize everything, simply because that feature is there. I would argue the thought of viewing more than one window at a time never even occurs to the average PC users. They've been trained to think that way by the presence of the maximize button. I've seen plenty of PC users sit down at my Mac and start dragging all the open windows to take up the entire 22" screen. When I ask "why are you doing that stop it" they respond "I don't know." What the heck is that all about?

I don't see how you think its reasonable to change a major function of the Mac OS that has been there forever, forcing all Mac users who expect it to function a certain way to have to adjust to a clearly less efficient system, just because you want to maximize something, which does happen to be how it works in Windows, hence the suggestion to use that operating system.

I am not against some sort of key combination, but it shouldn't be default. You people really need to learn to stop maximizing things.

Also, ignoring all the "fanboys" (who are making a very good argument) by posting rants about how everyone is foaming at the mouth over the mention of Windows doesn't make anyone's point any stronger.

[dukebound85]

It is less productive, and whatever slight advantage it may have in some obscure situation is overshadowed by how lousy it is for all other situations. All maximizing does is train people to be comfortable only working with one window at a time, and to experience confusion at multiple windows or any other sort of multi-tasking.

Just look at any average Windows users - they literally maximize everything, simply because that feature is there. I would argue the thought of viewing more than one window at a time never even occurs to the average PC users. They've been trained to think that way by the presence of the maximize button. I've seen plenty of PC users sit down at my Mac and start dragging all the open windows to take up the entire screen. When I ask "why are you doing that stop it" they respond "I don't know." What the heck is that all about?

I don't see how you think its reasonable to change a major function of the Mac OS that has been there forever, forcing all Mac users who expect it to function a certain way to have to adjust to a clearly less efficient system, just because you want to maximize something, which does happen to be how it works in Windows, hence the suggestion to use that operating system.

I am not against some sort of key combination, but it shouldn't be default. You people really need to learn to stop maximizing things.

i agree with your post. thats why i would like the option to. granted i hardley ever use maximize even in windows as i like windowed mode, but when i have to write up a lab, it is nice to only see one app. to me that increases my productivity

however saying it isnt as productive is subjective

[Mac OS X Ocelot]

Despite the negative energy, this is an interesting thread to me.

Personally, I never use the zoom button except very rarely with iTunes. Most of the time I just press play and then close the window. Still, I too was bothered by the zoom button's inconsistencies (not like iTunes inconsistent; I actually like its behavior) and thought it didn't make much sense, but then I just stopped worrying and never used it since because it doesn't suit my needs. Years ago when I used Windows, its way of maximizing made sense to me, but it wouldn't make as much sense for most apps on Mac. It just wouldn't, to me. Frankly, maximizing on Mac would be more usable if 1) the friggin window would reach the bottom of the screen when the Dock is hidden (this would be a GREAT behavior even if you're not trying for fullscreen; hint hint, Apple) and 2) all windows would snap to the sides of the screen so you don't have to eyeball it when you're resizing it yourself.

[Cloudane]

My god the vitriolic hatred emanating from the fanboys is disgusting.

I love my Mac, I like OSX, but I too, would like a window to maximize to full screen from time to time. Trying to focus on one thing, one task, one app - with corners of other apps sticking out the side is a distraction sometimes.

And because of that, it seems that people here want me sent back to DOS for some reason.

Think different? Nah - think EXACTLY LIKE US OR GO SCREW YOURSELF.

It's pathetic.

Doug

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=392944&highlight=worst+thing

Can't expect anything else from here. Great UI design ideas? No... suggesting ideas to *improve* anything made by Apple is called blaspemy! How can you possibly improve anything you heathen!! Confess all your PC uses and say 3 Hail Jobs's.

I too love Mac stuff, but man. My fellow fans do make me cringe sometimes.

[HLdan]

Thanks, I thought I was all alone in my thinking




Funny how just by MENTIONING a maximize function, people tell me go back to windows, its not productive, no advantages at all, must not like os x, etc

How ironic it would be if apple implemented this in some fashion and then all the people here criticizing me now will be praising the changes because apple did it haha

Nah it ain't gonna happen. Apple's done it this way for over 15 years on the Mac. This functionality falls under Apple's HUI guidelines.

[QuarterSwede]

Personally I understand why Apple has chosen this for their OS's but it would be nice to use an iPhoto fullscreen like effect (basically autohide menu bar and dock) every once in a while for certain writing apps, etc. and for people with monitors that aren't bloody huge! like my 12" PB where I HAVE to use Safari and Mail in basically max and I still don't have enough room.

[dukebound85]

Nah it ain't gonna happen. Apple's done it this way for over 15 years on the Mac. This functionality falls under Apple's HUI guidelines.

one thing is certain and that is nothing is ever certain

[HLdan]

one thing is certain and that is nothing is ever certain

LOL, I gotcha:D but I am LMAO because you say that "One thing is certain" that "nothing is ever certain". You sorta contradicted your point. :D

[kick52]

It is less productive, and whatever slight advantage it may have in some obscure situation is overshadowed by how lousy it is for all other situations. All maximizing does is train people to be comfortable only working with one window at a time, and to experience confusion at multiple windows or any other sort of multi-tasking.

Just look at any average Windows users - they literally maximize everything, simply because that feature is there. I would argue the thought of viewing more than one window at a time never even occurs to the average PC users. They've been trained to think that way by the presence of the maximize button. I've seen plenty of PC users sit down at my Mac and start dragging all the open windows to take up the entire 22" screen. When I ask "why are you doing that stop it" they respond "I don't know." What the heck is that all about?

I don't see how you think its reasonable to change a major function of the Mac OS that has been there forever, forcing all Mac users who expect it to function a certain way to have to adjust to a clearly less efficient system, just because you want to maximize something, which does happen to be how it works in Windows, hence the suggestion to use that operating system.

I am not against some sort of key combination, but it shouldn't be default. You people really need to learn to stop maximizing things.

Also, ignoring all the "fanboys" (who are making a very good argument) by posting rants about how everyone is foaming at the mouth over the mention of Windows doesn't make anyone's point any stronger.

SNAP!

My friend does that. EVERYTHING is maximized, even MSN windows. It makes me cringe when he looks at other windows using the toolbar thingy down the bottom.

[dukebound85]

LOL, I gotcha:D but I am LMAO because you say that "One thing is certain" that "nothing is ever certain". You sorta contradicted your point. :D


haha yea i know but its a cool saying anyways lol

[danny_w]

While it is true that many people maximize windows without thinking about it, and have no real reason why they do it, it is also true that different people are truly different and have different work styles. What works for one user may not work well for another user. I think it is very narrow minded of people to say that nobody (or everybody) should maximize windows. Just do what works best for you. I do think it would be great if the os gave us the option of making buttons do what we want them to do, but really it is no big deal. What IS a big deal is people trying to force other people to accept their point of view as the only valid viewpoint.

[theman]

For firefox, the button honestly doesn't work AT ALL. sometimes it doesn't even do anything when you click it.

for safari it sometimes leaves the horrizontal scrollbar at the bottom of the screen! it would be really great if it worked the way it's supposed to, but it doesn't.

[danny_w]

For firefox, the button honestly doesn't work AT ALL. sometimes it doesn't even do anything when you click it.

for safari it sometimes leaves the horrizontal scrollbar at the bottom of the screen! it would be really great if it worked the way it's supposed to, but it doesn't.
Works fine for me in Firefox 2.0.0.11

[theman]

Works fine for me in Firefox 2.0.0.11

ok, i figured out what the more specific problem is. if you have the window smaller than the recommended size, the green button will expand it (for me, right now, it expands the maximum vertically, and and about 3/4 of the screen horizontally.

now, if you have the window expanded more horizontally than that 3/4, then the green button does not change anything at all when you click it. it doesnt do anything. i thought the point was to make it just the size you need (be that reducing or increasing the size of the window).

and for safari, for some strange reason it makes it slightly undersized horizontally so there is still a scrollbar at the bottom.

[SthrnCmfrtr]

I like maximizing my windows. It allows me to see more of, you know, the **** I'm working with. Instead of the window behind that contains **** I'm not working with. Or my desktop wallpaper.

The green button doesn't work the way I would prefer it to, so I generally just end up stretching my windows out to full-size. Thankfully, Panther provided Exposé and Leopard provided Spaces, so it's finally tolerable.

In darn-near every app I run, width is a benefit. I can fit more columns of data in iTunes or spreadsheets or Finder or DEVONthink. PDFs become larger and more legible. Text entry in Safari is easier with more screen real-estate.
Similarly, height is almost always a benefit -- more rows of data, less scrolling in PDFs and websites, better text entry, etc.

Why wouldn't you maximize? Because you only read blogs online? Because you really watch postage stamp-sized Quicktime videos while writing Stickies?

Sorry -- I generally don't mix and match my applications. When I'm on the internet, I'm either researching or killing time, and if I'm researching I have folder actions to move PDF'ed sites to the appropriate locations. If I'm working, I'm working in one particular app (DEVONthink). If I'm watching a movie or playing music, I'm doing it on the Apple TV eight feet away. If I need to dig down in Terminal or the Finder, by all means, I'll size them appropriately -- but I create aliases and smart groups to avoid my reliance on multiple Finder windows and I have tabs in Terminal.

If you use fifteen applications at the same time and feel the perverse need to have them all visible on screen at the same time, that's fantastic. Many of us don't work that way, though -- and although you might be in the majority of Mac users, you are not necessarily in the majority of computer users.

And bragging about how long you've been using a Mac is idiotic. If you actually purchased a Mac and tried to use it during the OS8/OS9 days, it significantly impairs my ability to take you seriously.

[TheStu]

I like maximizing my windows. It allows me to see more of, you know, the **** I'm working with. Instead of the window behind that contains **** I'm not working with. Or my desktop wallpaper.

The green button doesn't work the way I would prefer it to, so I generally just end up stretching my windows out to full-size. Thankfully, Panther provided Exposé and Leopard provided Spaces, so it's finally tolerable.

In darn-near every app I run, width is a benefit. I can fit more columns of data in iTunes or spreadsheets or Finder or DEVONthink. PDFs become larger and more legible. Text entry in Safari is easier with more screen real-estate.
Similarly, height is almost always a benefit -- more rows of data, less scrolling in PDFs and websites, better text entry, etc.

Why wouldn't you maximize? Because you only read blogs online? Because you really watch postage stamp-sized Quicktime videos while writing Stickies?

Sorry -- I generally don't mix and match my applications. When I'm on the internet, I'm either researching or killing time, and if I'm researching I have folder actions to move PDF'ed sites to the appropriate locations. If I'm working, I'm working in one particular app (DEVONthink). If I'm watching a movie or playing music, I'm doing it on the Apple TV eight feet away. If I need to dig down in Terminal or the Finder, by all means, I'll size them appropriately -- but I create aliases and smart groups to avoid my reliance on multiple Finder windows and I have tabs in Terminal.

If you use fifteen applications at the same time and feel the perverse need to have them all visible on screen at the same time, that's fantastic. Many of us don't work that way, though -- and although you might be in the majority of Mac users, you are not necessarily in the majority of computer users.

And bragging about how long you've been using a Mac is idiotic. If you actually purchased a Mac and tried to use it during the OS8/OS9 days, it significantly impairs my ability to take you seriously.

I don't maximize things like Safari because most webpages aren't designed to be resolution independent, so on most websites you get a huge swath of white all around the page (sometimes the designer will mix it up with gray, or tulips or some such) and this is on my little 13" screen. Imagine how horrid it was when I was dual screening with a 23" Cinema Display!

Not maximizing my windows means that I can view multiple documents at once, or have 3 or so emacs windows open if I am coding. I can be talking to people on Adium while watching a movie in (insert media player here). I can browse the web while chatting. I can read my email, and then bring up another, older email and compare the text side by side to compare them (I play Diplomacy via email, so this is crucial if I want to confirm that someone lied). I can be working on a website in Coda while still having the webpage open right next to it. I can have a finder window, a terminal window, and an emacs windows open (helpful when turning in my homework via ssh) or in lieu of the terminal, CyberDuck.

So why would I maximize?

[pscoble]

:( like mentioned before Im sure it's not a maximize button it is a button that makes the window the full size of the actual page I think it works quite nicely since it actually isn't meant to be a maximize button.

[dpaanlka]

Sorry -- I generally don't mix and match my applications.

Exactly. You're exactly the type of person I was talking about in a previous post of mine. You have been trained to be completely uncomfortable when presented with "too many" windows, as you put it.

Now, the debate here is about the Green button, and what it should really do, from a choice of two options:

Fit to Content - the more flexible and multitasking-friendly method that may seem a bit complex or overwhelming to people such as yourselves.

Maximize - the totally not flexible, primitive method that would be completely utterly unacceptable to anybody who is used to the previous way.

Now, who do you think would suffer more:

The single-app maximize types such as yourself who have to manually drag their windows the full size of the screen, or familiarize yourself with the way Apple intended you to work with your computer.

- or -

The people who are already fluent in the operation of the green button and use their computers with lots of windows and the desktop visible at all times, who would then have completely lost the content-aware resizing feature and have to manually drag and resize their windows, in addition to un-learning the long established function of that button?

Apple isn't going to change it, and its pretty dumb for people to expect them to. You're basically asking them to go backwards.

[danny_w]

But why does it have to be only one way? A computer is a tool, and a tool is to be used. The best tools will conform themselves to the way YOU work best, not force you into some arbitrary way that the designers think is best for you. Nobody has the right to say what works best for somebody else, that is all I am saying. I won't try to force my way on you, and I would be grateful if you would do the same. I am now done with this thread.

[HLdan]

But why does it have to be only one way? A computer is a tool, and a tool is to be used. The best tools will conform themselves to the way YOU work best, not force you into some arbitrary way that the designers think is best for you. Nobody has the right to say what works best for somebody else, that is all I am saying. I won't try to force my way on you, and I would be grateful if you would do the same. I am now done with this thread.

It's unfortunate you are done with this thread but then again so am I after I rebuttal your opinions.

You asked why does it have to be only one way? Windows is only one way. Why doesn't their browser expand just enough to cover the content. I don't like the fact that it's only one way, expand to full screen or back to original size. Not productive.

Nobody has the right to say what works best for someone else: Unfortunately you're wrong, Apple and Microsoft make their OS's they way they want and the way they feel you should work, on this account either use their OS or don't use it.

The best tools will conform themselves to the way you work best: How would the computer know which way millions and millions of computer users work best. Since there's no real wrong way it can only do what the developing programmer makes it do.
Remember it's a choice so nobody is forcing you. Thank goodness Apple brings a different way of computing otherwise we would all by stuck with Windows. Not to say Apple's way is perfect but it works for most.

[danny_w]

It's unfortunate you are done with this thread but then again so am I after I rebuttal your opinions.

You asked why does it have to be only one way? Windows is only one way. Why doesn't their browser expand just enough to cover the content. I don't like the fact that it's only one way, expand to full screen or back to original size. Not productive.

Nobody has the right to say what works best for someone else: Unfortunately you're wrong, Apple and Microsoft make their OS's they way they want and the way they feel you should work, on this account either use their OS or don't use it.

The best tools will conform themselves to the way you work best: How would the computer know which way millions and millions of computer users work best. Since there's no real wrong way it can only do what the developing programmer makes it do.
Remember it's a choice so nobody is forcing you. Thank goodness Apple brings a different way of computing otherwise we would all by stuck with Windows. Not to say Apple's way is perfect but it works for most.
You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that either way is perfect and you're right, neither Windows nor OS X give you a choice in this case. That doesn't make it right. In my opinion they should both give you the option of how you want to work. After all, that is what computers are good for, having multiple options for how to do something. Unfortunately neither os gives you a choice in this case. That doesn't mean they cannot be improved upon. Software development is not a perfect art and is continually evolving. And with that I am now done.

[dpaanlka]

not force you into some arbitrary way

I thought I explained pretty well why Apple developers would choose not to offer maximize everything as an option.

I guess I could once again go into why maximizing is almost never ever a good option over fit to content, despite how much value you think Apple should place on your personal preferences and comfort levels, but then I'd be repeating myself yet again.

[mokeyjoe]

I like full screen modes for writing. I type green text on black - but I suppose that isn't really 'maximizing'.

The idea of 'multitasking' is misleading anyway - you can only have one app in use at a time so you still need to switch between them. It doesn't really matter if they're maximised or not. Unless you're waiting for a message or something then the ability to see your other windows isn't that useful.

Ironically I think OS X works much better with full screen windows than Windows. Thanks to exposé, better cmd-tab functionality, the hide window function etc. As a 12" iBook owner I'm thankful as I have to have pretty much every window maxed out to make them usable.

At work in XP I usually maximise Outlook but have all the other windows floating on top - because I always want to see Outlook in the background.

I don't think zoom works very well for browsing though as websites often have different size pages and if you're flipping from page to page surfing then you'd need to keep resizing the page. Better to set a size that's big enough for everything - not necessarily full screen though.

[dpaanlka]

The idea of 'multitasking' is misleading anyway - you can only have one app in use at a time so you still need to switch between them. It doesn't really matter if they're maximised or not. Unless you're waiting for a message or something then the ability to see your other windows isn't that useful.

That is really quite false, especially on Mac OS X, with all the drag and drop action. Judging by your response, I gather you aren't very familiar or even aware of how it works in Mac OS X.

On a Mac, "drag and drop" doesn't only apply to dragging files from one folder to another folder in the Finder.

[mokeyjoe]

That is really quite false, especially on Mac OS X, with all the drag and drop action. Judging by your response, I gather you aren't very familiar or even aware of how it works in Mac OS X.

On a Mac, "drag and drop" doesn't only apply to dragging files from one folder to another folder in the Finder.

Yeah but it isn't 'multitasking' - it's a single task that requires multiple windows. The terminology is misleading. Even so there are usually other ways to perform the same task. Besides, you often have to reposition windows anyway to drag and drop, which in itself inefficient - often its quicker to drag stuff on to the task bar in Windows even if you aren't maximised, or cmd-tab to the app in OSX, as it means you don't have to fiddle with window sizing and positioning.

Personally I avoid using the mouse as much as possible as it's usually slower, less efficient and I get wrist pains if I use the mouse too much. One reason why I love Quicksilver, and it's made me think the 'desktop' metaphor is rather outmoded for anyone comfortable with computers.

Also remember it isn't maximised or nothing. You can work with windows 'floating' in Windows just as you can in OS X. You just have the option if you spend most of your life in one or two apps. If a large part of your job entails sitting in one app - say if you do a large amount of data entry - then it makes sense to have that app fill the screen. You may never use another app in your day to day work.

[mac-er]

Apple isn't going to change it, and its pretty dumb for people to expect them to. You're basically asking them to go backwards.

Thank you. If you haven't learned one thing about Apple and the Mac you need to know that you are doing things Apple's way, and hence the "right" way.

Apple thinks maximizing is inefficient because it goes against the basics of GUI and using a desktop environment. If you need to maximize, do it yourself, manually. But, Apple isn't going to help you out on it.

[Broken Friday]

It is hilarious seeing how many Apple cult followers here are defending Apple's bad choice of display, bad coding, or a bad understanding of what the + means typically.

If the majority of these fanboys never used a Mac and used one today and tried the + button, you'd be like "wait... no "bigger"?

I think many of you were confused when you first tried it, but went online to see other user trying to justify it, and being the Apple fanboy that you are, you blindly took there justification just so Apple won't look stupid.

I anything, it shouldn't be a + sign. Imagine taking enlargement pills, and on the box and product lays many + signs, saying "maximize your ....". You take it, and whatever the body part is shrinks, how you feel?Like an idiot I hope. I hope you wouldn't be running around being an Apple fanboy saying "my leg is the size of my thumb, but the "theory" is correct!!! Yay Apple".

I have a iMac and a Dell XPS 400 setting nicely together almost as if holding hands, and I a fan of both companies and their products aren't blind and ignorant enough to justify things that should have no justification.

Anyways, Apple needs to change the sign, or change the purpose (coding).

I'm gone...

[macgruder]

If you really want to maximize use Quicksilver.

I have F6 : total Maximize
I have F7 : 'half' Maximize front two Windows side by side
& have F8: 'half' top and bottom.

I don't think that the present system is great. Perhaps, a slight desaturation for return to user state would help. The button as a maximize to full Window is just a bad idea. Not because it's not occasionally useful but because a nice 'click me!' green button is going to get clicked by people and encourage a use that is a would be bad to have as the default use.

Also in Safari, try this: maximize a Window, then move it to the center of the screen, now click the green button twice. I would expect the second click to remember where my previously maxed Window was, but in fact it maximizes back in the top left. I think that this semi-toggle behaviour is confusing to people. Especially if the behaviour is not consistent across apps.

i.e. desaturate and return to previous max should remember previous position.

[lofight]

If you really want to maximize use Quicksilver.

I have F6 : total Maximize
I have F7 : 'half' Maximize front two Windows side by side
& have F8: 'half' top and bottom.

I don't think that the present system is great. Perhaps, a slight desaturation for return to user state would help. The button as a maximize to full Window is just a bad idea. Not because it's not occasionally useful but because a nice 'click me!' green button is going to get clicked by people and encourage a use that is a would be bad to have as the default use.

Also in Safari, try this: maximize a Window, then move it to the center of the screen, now click the green button twice. I would expect the second click to remember where my previously maxed Window was, but in fact it maximizes back in the top left. I think that this semi-toggle behaviour is confusing to people. Especially if the behaviour is not consistent across apps.

i.e. desaturate and return to previous max should remember previous position.
How can you activate these features in Quicksilver? to maximise, etc..

[macgruder]

How can you activate these features in Quicksilver? to maximise, etc..

Briefly:

-- An applescript that resizes the front two windows of the active application side by side, filling the screen.
-- Written by Simon Dorfman, January 4, 2006. www.SimonDorfman.com

-- Save this script to ~/Library/Scripts/Applications/Run from QuickSilver Triggers, Don't move these/Front 2 Windows Side by Side - Control + Option + C.scpt
-- I use keyboard shortcut Control + Option + C to run it. I think of the C as standing for "Compare".
-- You'll need to have "Enable access for assisstive devices" enabled under Universal Access in System Preferences.

--set screen dimension variables
set menubarHeight to 22
--set screenWidth to word 3 of (do shell script "defaults read /Library/Preferences/com.apple.windowserver | grep -w Width") as number
--set screenHeight to word 3 of (do shell script "defaults read /Library/Preferences/com.apple.windowserver | grep -w Height") as number
--if you plan to use this on just one computer where the screen dimensions won't change, this script will run faster if you just hard code your screen resolution with these two lines:
set screenWidth to 1640
set screenHeight to 1050
{screenWidth, screenHeight}

tell application "System Events"
set frontApp to name of first application process whose frontmost is true
end tell

--some apps are wacky and put the windows higher for some reason, adjust for this bug.
if (frontApp is equal to "Finder" or frontApp is equal to "Microsoft Entourage") then
set menubarHeight to 44
end if
--leave room for the Excel Toolbar
if (frontApp is equal to "Microsoft Excel") then
set menubarHeight to 55
end if

try
if frontApp is "Path Finder" then
-- deal with Path Finder windows
tell application "Path Finder"
set bounds of «class fwiD» 1 to {0, menubarHeight, screenWidth, screenHeight}
end tell
else
tell application frontApp
set bounds of window 1 to {0, menubarHeight, screenWidth, screenHeight}
end tell
end if
on error the error_message number the error_number
--display dialog "Error: " & the error_number & ". " & the error_message buttons {"OK"} default button 1
end try

[lofight]

Briefly:

-- An applescript that resizes the front two windows of the active application side by side, filling the screen.
-- Written by Simon Dorfman, January 4, 2006. www.SimonDorfman.com

-- Save this script to ~/Library/Scripts/Applications/Run from QuickSilver Triggers, Don't move these/Front 2 Windows Side by Side - Control + Option + C.scpt
-- I use keyboard shortcut Control + Option + C to run it. I think of the C as standing for "Compare".
-- You'll need to have "Enable access for assisstive devices" enabled under Universal Access in System Preferences.

--set screen dimension variables
set menubarHeight to 22
--set screenWidth to word 3 of (do shell script "defaults read /Library/Preferences/com.apple.windowserver | grep -w Width") as number
--set screenHeight to word 3 of (do shell script "defaults read /Library/Preferences/com.apple.windowserver | grep -w Height") as number
--if you plan to use this on just one computer where the screen dimensions won't change, this script will run faster if you just hard code your screen resolution with these two lines:
set screenWidth to 1640
set screenHeight to 1050
{screenWidth, screenHeight}

tell application "System Events"
set frontApp to name of first application process whose frontmost is true
end tell

--some apps are wacky and put the windows higher for some reason, adjust for this bug.
if (frontApp is equal to "Finder" or frontApp is equal to "Microsoft Entourage") then
set menubarHeight to 44
end if
--leave room for the Excel Toolbar
if (frontApp is equal to "Microsoft Excel") then
set menubarHeight to 55
end if

try
if frontApp is "Path Finder" then
-- deal with Path Finder windows
tell application "Path Finder"
set bounds of «class fwiD» 1 to {0, menubarHeight, screenWidth, screenHeight}
end tell
else
tell application frontApp
set bounds of window 1 to {0, menubarHeight, screenWidth, screenHeight}
end tell
end if
on error the error_message number the error_number
--display dialog "Error: " & the error_number & ". " & the error_message buttons {"OK"} default button 1
end try
I don't really understand this all.. :p

[Blue Velvet]

It is hilarious seeing how many Apple cult followers here are defending Apple's bad choice of display, bad coding, or a bad understanding of what the + means typically.


It is hilarious seeing how many Apple denigrators here are asserting they know more about Human Interface Guidelines and know more about how to design a GUI than Apple do.

[dejo]

Why wouldn't you maximize?
Here's one reason why: I develop web-apps that need to look good in a variety of browser window sizes. Therefore, for the most part I have my "test" browser window open at 1024x768 (a reasonable lowest-common-denominator nowadays). That way I can ensure that the visual experience at that window size is none-too-jarring. Once happy with that, often I will resize the window to see how the web-app reacts to other sizes as well.

[Matek]

Exactly. You're exactly the type of person I was talking about in a previous post of mine. You have been trained to be completely uncomfortable when presented with "too many" windows, as you put it.

Now, the debate here is about the Green button, and what it should really do, from a choice of two options:

Fit to Content - the more flexible and multitasking-friendly method that may seem a bit complex or overwhelming to people such as yourselves.

Maximize - the totally not flexible, primitive method that would be completely utterly unacceptable to anybody who is used to the previous way.

Now, who do you think would suffer more:

The single-app maximize types such as yourself who have to manually drag their windows the full size of the screen, or familiarize yourself with the way Apple intended you to work with your computer.

- or -

The people who are already fluent in the operation of the green button and use their computers with lots of windows and the desktop visible at all times, who would then have completely lost the content-aware resizing feature and have to manually drag and resize their windows, in addition to un-learning the long established function of that button?

Apple isn't going to change it, and its pretty dumb for people to expect them to. You're basically asking them to go backwards.

Wow, I can't believe this - how can you be so ignorant? You simply assume that the allmighty Apple is absolutely correct and build your whole post on this assumption.

I could copypaste your post and just switch maximised and regular-sized windows so it would look like maximisation is the best way. What if you are the one trained to be completely uncomfortable when presented with just one window? Everyone is mentioning GUI experts - I'm sure Microsoft and other OS developers have them too, and as many people said - let us have our way of doing things. After all, It's not a perfectly objective thing, you can't put it through GUIMark 2007 and say it beats the competition by 3420 GUI points.

Oh, and another thing - nobody forces you to maximise things in windows, but still - so many people do it. How come such a small number of users actually leaves their windows regularly sized? Sure, the green button is missing, but that's just an additional feature, the basic idea of having smaller windows and placing them around as you wish still is still readily available. How come Windows users don't do it the Apple way? If it's as superior as you say, I'd expect at least half of the users to do it. Is Microsoft forcing them to maximise with subliminal messages in wallpapers?

[SteveG4Cube]

Sheesh, some of you need to get out more! :D

Try this with Safari, just stick it in your bookmarks bar and click it when you want to maximize a window:

http://www.aristoi.org/blog/archives/2004/01/maximize_safari.php

[Matek]

Already got that one, thanks anyway :D.

[macgruder]

I don't really understand this all.. :p


Copy that text and save it in Applescript as maximize.scpt

Then in Quicksilver, set run maximize.scpt as a trigger. The details you'll have to work out on your own ;-)

(The + is not great on that button. Just like shutting down Windows requires the Start button if I remember correctly. People are pretty good at applying symbols to concepts if those concepts are consistent. The green button should absolutely not totally maximize, but as said before it could be more consistent. Truly toggling would be a start. )

[macgruder]

It is hilarious seeing how many Apple denigrators here are asserting they know more about Human Interface Guidelines and know more about how to design a GUI than Apple do.

This is somewhat ingenious as it suggests all the GUI elements are dictated by the Apple interface design team alone which is clearly not the case. No doubt things that they don't like appear in the final product due to other issues - the marketing team for example. (3-D dock on the bottom of the screen, come on down! Transparent menu at the top, take a bow!) For all we know the GUI guys are complaining about the + themselves but they weren't allowed to change it because 'we want a traffic signal look with 3 math symbols looks nicer', say. Doesn't change the fact that the + should not totally maximize.

[whooleytoo]

Now, the debate here is about the Green button, and what it should really do, from a choice of two options:

Fit to Content - the more flexible and multitasking-friendly method that may seem a bit complex or overwhelming to people such as yourselves.

Maximize - the totally not flexible, primitive method that would be completely utterly unacceptable to anybody who is used to the previous way.

It doesn't have to be a choice. We could do both. Click the Zoom button to Fit to Content, Option-Click to Maximise (Dock & Menubar excepted). Or vice versa, ideally this could be configured in System Preferences.

Badda bing. Everyone's happy.

[lofight]

Copy that text and save it in Applescript as maximize.scpt

Then in Quicksilver, set run maximize.scpt as a trigger. The details you'll have to work out on your own ;-)

(The + is not great on that button. Just like shutting down Windows requires the Start button if I remember correctly. People are pretty good at applying symbols to concepts if those concepts are consistent. The green button should absolutely not totally maximize, but as said before it could be more consistent. Truly toggling would be a start. )

oh, i will try that..

EDIT:i did that, but it doesn't work... what could be the problem??

[TBi]

Just like shutting down Windows requires the Start button if I remember correctly. People are pretty good at applying symbols to concepts if those concepts are consistent.

You know i don't get the whole thing against windows using the start button to shut down, in a car you use the ignition to turn the car off.

In a way it makes sense, you can start a program or start shutting down the PC.

[psychofreak]

You know i don't get the whole thing against windows using the start button to shut down, in a car you use the ignition to turn the car off.

In a way it makes sense, you can start a program or start shutting down the PC.

My grandmother (at the time 81 years old) did not find it so easy to grasp...

[TBi]

My grandmother (at the time 81 years old) did not find it so easy to grasp...

And she found it easier to grasp that you click a little apple to shut your Mac down?

[psychofreak]

And she found it easier to grasp that you click a little apple to shut your Mac down?
She's never tried my Mac, in fact I immediately put a power-icon on the desktop (http://www.instructables.com/id/E0XG0S8FPSEV2ZDJ2M/) to let her double click it to launch a shut-down script...

This was before I converted...

[TBi]

This was before I converted...

My point is only that someone who can understand that you click an apple to shutdown a computer can easily understand that you click start to shut down a computer too.

[xUKHCx]

My point is only that someone who can understand that you click an apple to shutdown a computer can easily understand that you click start to shut down a computer too.

I agree, in fact i think that Apples implementation is actually worse because it is not obvious that you can click on the :apple:. Where as in windows (not vista though) there was a big screaming button saying press me.

[macgruder]

I agree, in fact i think that Apples implementation is actually worse because it is not obvious that you can click on the :apple:. Where as in windows (not vista though) there was a big screaming button saying press me.

Don't really agree with this. True it is better the first time on Windows, and then on the other 2 - 9999999999 times you have an annoying large button to deal with. Whereas on the Mac is it a bit tricky the first time but better the next 2 - 9999999999 times. And given the ridiculousness of the shutdown in Vista with its 9 different ways. Insanely bad.

http://blog.wired.com/photos/uncategorized/21vistaoff.png

[xUKHCx]

Don't really agree with this. True it is better the first time on Windows, and then on the other 2 - 9999999999 times you have an annoying large button to deal with. Whereas on the Mac is it a bit tricky the first time but better the next 2 - 9999999999 times.

What :confused:, there really isn't any difference between a big button and a small button in this regard.:rolleyes:

[TBi]

I agree, in fact i think that Apples implementation is actually worse because it is not obvious that you can click on the :apple:. Where as in windows (not vista though) there was a big screaming button saying press me.

The vista implementation is quite lacking. The big button that looks like an off button will actually put your computer to sleep or on other occasions shut your computer down. Plus it's not clear that you have to click the arrow for other options.

All previous versions of windows were very clear, click shut down to shut down (or at least give you the options).

The apple one is a bit tricky because as you say you don't know you can click it. However if you do know it is clickable then it makes sense. The Apple menu controls your apple, and you shut down your apple through the apple menu.

[erikistired]

Wow, I can't believe this - how can you be so ignorant? You simply assume that the allmighty Apple is absolutely correct and build your whole post on this assumption.

I could copypaste your post and just switch maximised and regular-sized windows so it would look like maximisation is the best way. What if you are the one trained to be completely uncomfortable when presented with just one window? Everyone is mentioning GUI experts - I'm sure Microsoft and other OS developers have them too, and as many people said - let us have our way of doing things. After all, It's not a perfectly objective thing, you can't put it through GUIMark 2007 and say it beats the competition by 3420 GUI points.

Oh, and another thing - nobody forces you to maximise things in windows, but still - so many people do it. How come such a small number of users actually leaves their windows regularly sized? Sure, the green button is missing, but that's just an additional feature, the basic idea of having smaller windows and placing them around as you wish still is still readily available. How come Windows users don't do it the Apple way? If it's as superior as you say, I'd expect at least half of the users to do it. Is Microsoft forcing them to maximise with subliminal messages in wallpapers?

having done it the "microsoft" way for a long time, and the "apple" way a short time, i find that the "apple" way is far superior. i work more efficiently not having to dig through a bunch of maximized windows, especially when moving files between programs. and i don't think i could live without expose.

[macgruder]

What :confused:, there really isn't any difference between a big button and a small button in this regard.:rolleyes:

Well, if you prefer the big print version of books :)

[macgruder]

having done it the "microsoft" way for a long time, and the "apple" way a short time, i find that the "apple" way is far superior. i work more efficiently not having to dig through a bunch of maximized windows, especially when moving files between programs. and i don't think i could live without expose.

And if you made the Mighty Mouse nipple to be Expose for current application, it's awesome.

[unity]

There is a really simple resolution to this. After reading much of this thread I have come to the conclusion that those that are complaining about the function of the maximize button are former Windows users. And I bet many of you still spell Mac in caps, like so: MAC

So how about going back to being a Windows user? What is next though, you want to try out Linux and complain about how the "dock" does not work right?

Maximize is meant to maximize the efficient use of the window. Having a window at full screen is not always efficient.

Personally I like the fact that I have grown up to use a computer and not just a window. I can use Safari and keep iChat at its side to see buddy status. I can drag images from a folder or the desktop into a document editor without having to go through SEVERAL steps to "insert" an image.

Join use tomorrow as we discuss how the Mac's "trash" can is politically incorrect in some abstract way and how Windows "recycle bin" is so much more appropriate.

Then next week will be touch on how screen tearing is the best way to display an opening window in Windows and how Apple implementation of clean rendering is too GPU intense and a waste of valuable resources.

[erikistired]

And if you made the Mighty Mouse nipple to be Expose for current application, it's awesome.

i use hot corners, love them.

[Cloudane]

Yep, the Vista shutdown method definitely wins the "terrible usability of the year" award :)

I don't understand it. I had a class on Usability and Human-Computer Interaction as part of a very basic 2 year college course (part time, a couple of evenings a week), and yet *yes* even I seem to know more about interface design than Microsoft... or even Apple sometimes (though they're usually top notch). The principles are not that difficult: be consistent, provide visual cues, break up information into chunks, display things clearly etc. There's a huge list of them but once you've read them they seem like common sense.

To make an off-button that can be either a standby or shutdown button without changing in appearance, to dump the other options within a difficult-to-spot hidden menu, to have this hidden menu with important options as a plain text list with no icons / visual cues, to make the off-button instantly do what the user will frequently find is not the behaviour they wanted, without any prompting... just some of the things that are wrong with Microsoft's design there... I'd have failed the assignment! Honestly there is no excuse for a multi billion dollar corporation to be getting basics like that so wrong.

[SthrnCmfrtr]

I don't maximize things like Safari because most webpages aren't designed to be resolution independent, so on most websites you get a huge swath of white all around the page (sometimes the designer will mix it up with gray, or tulips or some such) and this is on my little 13" screen. Imagine how horrid it was when I was dual screening with a 23" Cinema Display!

By all means, refuse to maximize all you want. I'm merely explaining how I work best -- and that's generally with each window filling the screen. As I've already pointed out, I don't generally look at too many websites with fixed div widths, like blogs and stuff. Most of what I look at when I am online are databases that actually benefit from increased real estate.

...uses for not maximizing...

That's fantastic, but surely you understand that switching between multiple applications rapidly is not the same as performing them simultaneously. As pointed out, I do that too -- by watching movies on my Apple TV, by listening to music in iTunes, by using the Dock or Exposé to switch between multiple applications (when conversing in iChat and so forth).

I also explained that I don't maximize all of my windows -- in fact, that whether or not I maximize a window depends on what I am currently doing with it. I do a lot of stuff in Terminal and in the Finder.

Exactly. You're exactly the type of person I was talking about in a previous post of mine. You have been trained to be completely uncomfortable when presented with "too many" windows, as you put it.

Perhaps you have been "trained" to forget background applications if they're not peeking out behind something. I haven't -- I'm well aware of every application I currently have open. I can drag any element from any window of any application to any section of any other application I have running. I can view every single application and every single window I have open just by pressing a button.

So far I've made the argument that maximizing an application is beneficial because many apps benefit from having a larger work area. Is this being "trained"? I'm perfectly capable of working with many, many small applications on a screen at one time -- I used to use gDesklets :D What I have trained myself to do, though, over years of computer usage, is to eliminate clutter and maximize efficiency. Shutting out distractions, in other words.

What we've learned in psychology is that people aren't particularly good multitaskers. That's why schools give advice before exam days like "Minimize distractions in your study area." Me, I'm a terrible multitasker -- and not because I was trained by Windows in some immense conspiracy aimed at keeping Apple a fringe company, but because of my basic psychology. I was like this long before I ever even touched a Windows computer.

Now, the debate here is about the Green button, and what it should really do, from a choice of two options:

See, I think you're the one who is confused here -- I'm explaining why maximization is beneficial to me, and you're complaining about how I'm evil and want to take away your happy green button. I don't care about the green button at all, even though many people in this thread (including myself) have already pointed out how it's inconsistent across different applications. I'm not arguing in favor of a fourth button either.

I'm merely explaining why maximizing windows is useful -- a quick way to gain maximal screen real estate for an application that benefits from such a thing.

Now, who do you think would suffer more:

No one has to suffer. Please pay attention.

That is really quite false, especially on Mac OS X, with all the drag and drop action. Judging by your response, I gather you aren't very familiar or even aware of how it works in Mac OS X.

On a Mac, "drag and drop" doesn't only apply to dragging files from one folder to another folder in the Finder.

I can drag and drop between maximized applications, even maximized applications on different workspaces, and even maximized applications on different computers. I can do it with Linux and Windows too.



There is a really simple resolution to this. After reading much of this thread I have come to the conclusion that those that are complaining about the function of the maximize button are former Windows users. And I bet many of you still spell Mac in caps, like so: MAC

Yeah, I'm a former Windows user. You know why? Because System 7, OS 8, and OS 9 were steaming piles of ****. Even Apple knew their OS sucked, which is why they spent several years trying to buy other companies' operating systems!

So how about going back to being a Windows user? What is next though, you want to try out Linux and complain about how the "dock" does not work right?

I've already tried out Linux -- and FreeBSD, OS/2, and several other OSes. Even the lowly BeOS :rolleyes: What's your point? That people cannot use an OS and criticize its missing functions?

Go read Low End Mac some more, where people always bitch about the useless eye candy of OS X and advocate going back to System 7 so that their Performas will keep running.

Maximize is meant to maximize the efficient use of the window. Having a window at full screen is not always efficient.

The OS is not intelligent enough to determine what is most efficient for me -- UI designers, while intelligent, operate by statistics. Remember we're discussing a computer that used a one-button mouse for over two decades because that extra button would confuse people...

I'll determine what is efficient for me and act accordingly. And if you can find it in your heart to allow me to use maximized windows, then I'd much appreciate it.

Personally I like the fact that I have grown up to use a computer and not just a window. I can use Safari and keep iChat at its side to see buddy status. I can drag images from a folder or the desktop into a document editor without having to go through SEVERAL steps to "insert" an image.

There are proxies and proxy methods for maximized apps throughout the OS -- the Services, the Dock, Exposé, Spaces... all put there to make working with maximized applications just as easy as having two small apps side by side. All the benefits of maximized windows (increased screen real estate, focus) and all the benefits of small windows side by side (easy workflows).

[tetrapulse]

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