Good mp3/music player *besides* iTunes?

[CubeHacker]

Don't get me wrong, iTunes is great for listening to all my ripped albums. But its insistence in adding everything I listen to to its library gets annoying fast. Sometimes i just want to listen to something i downloaded off the net for 5 seconds, to see if I like it. Most of these don't even have proper ID3 tags, and i certainly don't want it added to my library, so i can go searching for it later to remove it. If there was some way to prevent iTunes from adding everything to its library, i'd love it, but I have not found a way.

So, are there any good alternative players for OSX? Something comparable to Winamp for windows - a small, quick loading program that has a wide range of support (mp3, ogg, etc). So far i've tried Audion and Whamb, yet i'm not sure i like either too much. Whamb seems to want to stick everything in a playlist, and Audion's controls are unfriendly, even with skin changes. I'll probably stick with Audion, unless someone can recommend something better? Thanks.

[Balin64]

If you want to hear an mp3/audio file, just view the folder it is in in column view. When you select the mp3, a preview will appear on the right. Just click the play button and decide if you want to keep the file.

[Waluigi]

Originally posted by DOACleric
But its insistence in adding everything I listen to to its library gets annoying fast.....If there was some way to prevent iTunes from adding everything to its library, i'd love it, but I have not found a way.

Well, there is a way! Hit iTunes, then go to preferences, the the advanced tab, and uncheck the box that says 'Copy Files to iTunes Music Folder when Adding to Library'. So, now you can enjoy iTunes!

--Waluigi

[CubeHacker]

Originally posted by Waluigi
Well, there is a way! Hit iTunes, then go to preferences, the the advanced tab, and uncheck the box that says 'Copy Files to iTunes Music Folder when Adding to Library'. So, now you can enjoy iTunes!

--Waluigi

Actually, thats not the same thing. Although unchecking this box keeps iTunes from physically moving the mp3 to its own iTunes folder, it still adds it to the main library, which is what I would like to prevent.

While I know about the finder preview, its no where as convenient as double clicking a file and just listening to it.

[MacAztec]

QUICKTIME

Yes, quicktime. Right click the MP3 you download, open with quicktime. Voila, no copying.

[7on]

I use quicktime as well. Make it the default application for opening mp3, m4a, aiff, wav, etc.

[CubeHacker]

Originally posted by 7on
I use quicktime as well. Make it the default application for opening mp3, m4a, aiff, wav, etc.


I suppose I can give quicktime a try, except that it doesn't support other formats like ogg. Don't tell me everyone in here uses only iTunes :)

[mainstreetmark]

Originally posted by DOACleric
I suppose I can give quicktime a try, except that it doesn't support other formats like ogg. Don't tell me everyone in here uses only iTunes :)

Well, aren't you asking all the right quetions:

http://www.illadvised.com/~jordy/

[rdowns]

Originally posted by DOACleric
Don't get me wrong, iTunes is great for listening to all my ripped albums. But its insistence in adding everything I listen to to its library gets annoying fast. Sometimes i just want to listen to something i downloaded off the net for 5 seconds, to see if I like it. Most of these don't even have proper ID3 tags, and i certainly don't want it added to my library, so i can go searching for it later to remove it. If there was some way to prevent iTunes from adding everything to its library, i'd love it, but I have not found a way.

So, are there any good alternative players for OSX? Something comparable to Winamp for windows - a small, quick loading program that has a wide range of support (mp3, ogg, etc). So far i've tried Audion and Whamb, yet i'm not sure i like either too much. Whamb seems to want to stick everything in a playlist, and Audion's controls are unfriendly, even with skin changes. I'll probably stick with Audion, unless someone can recommend something better? Thanks.

Just sort songs in iTunes by date added. Newest are at the top. No need to go hunting.

[kubark42]

Not to dig up an old thread, but I second the request. iTunes, as much as it doesn't suck, it sucks in the end. The fact that id3 tag changes are only done in the database, and not reflected in the files; the fact that it can't support oggs; its rigid insistancy to do things the "Mac way" and not my way; and its inability to show filenames along with all the song information in the main view makes it an utterly ridiculous program for the 21st century. I love the interface, I love all it can do, but what it can't do is far more important to me than what it can. I don't want all my music organized "a la Mac". I LIKE my "Candy-Ass Modern Rockers" File, and I don't want them wandering off elsewhere into directories based on other names. However, iTunes pretty much forces me to activate the "Let iTunes copy new songs" because so many things don't work right when you don't (e.g. oggs).

Meh, I just want winamp. I want a music player, not a lifestyle change.

[mmmdreg]

The fact that id3 tag changes are only done in the database, and not reflected in the files;

I'm guessing you either mean the file name doesn't change, or that the actual file's data isn't changed. In both cases, it is. Changes are not local to iTunes.

If, on the other hand, you mean that the file name only contains the song title, and changing the artist or something else won't change the file name, that is true. But whether or not that is good is a subjective matter. I'm totally fine with it.

[TMA]

I feel like saying a few words in iTunes defense.

iTunes is an extremely powerful music jukebox. I speak to customers every day at work about it and no matter how computer literate someone thinks they are I'm usually able to show them a trick or two in iTunes that makes them think "wow!"

It's ability to organise music is outstanding. I recommend you let iTunes keep your music folder organised AND you let it copy files to your library. It forces you to make sure your ID3 tags are correct, but more often than not most downloaded MP3's are pretty much correct as they come.

I love the way you can set up highly customisable Smart Playlists, and I love the browser feature. Click anywhere in the 'Artist' panel on the browser, type in the first letter of the artist you want and it goes straight there. Or use the search. So many more features and they all work together very nicely to provide everything I need.

If you sample alot of MP3's you might be best off opening the file in quicktime or just using Safari if you're getting mp3's directly from the web. Otherwise it really isn't that much of a chore to hit the backspace butten in iTunes.

[PlaceofDis]

I love the way you can set up highly customisable Smart Playlists, and I love the browser feature. Click anywhere in the 'Artist' panel on the browser, type in the first letter of the artist you want and it goes straight there.

or even more than the first letter, and you can do this while in browse or not, very easy to get to the artist you are looking for

iTunes is very powererful in my opinion and it works better than any other player i have ever used: MusicMatch, WMP, WinAmp, etc etc etc

but to each their own

[nichos]

xine and vlc player should both do what you want. Check out wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_media_players) for a comparrison of players.

[swy32x]

Quick. Easy. Will handle ANYTHING you throw at it.

VLC (www.videolan.org/vlc)

[kubark42]

Don't get me wrong, iTunes does a really good job of doing what it does. I just don't like what it does. I like my system of managing music, it works for me. The database is fantastic and responds instantly like, well, a databse should be. But there are things about it that we should be wary of. For instance iTunes must be an absolute catastrophe when you start burning your music to DVD to make space. Does it have any way to know which song is on which DVD? Which regretable action does it take when your song is on another disc : A) It stops the music and waits for you to change discs, B) it skips the music and leaves you wondering where you put it. Because you know that once you stop looking at your music directories every day, you're going to quickly forget where you put which song.

When I rip music, I want it to be compatible on all my machines and everyone else's, not just people who are using iTunes and can download my xml file. I use Windows, Linux, and now Mac, so the best way to deal with all three is to keep my music organized myself. Now, if Tiger is going to have a feature where it keeps a up-to-date database of my entire file structure, why can't iTunes just patch into that without wanting to rearrange everything else ?

See, this is great if you like doing it that way. And Model-Ts were fantastic for people who licked black. But pity the fool who doesn't like proprietarty, vendor-lock in solutions. And sadly, I've noticed that most of the advice is, "Get used to it, it's better that way. Trust us." This is all too reminiscent of Microsoft ways of thinking.

To ramble on a bit further, because that's really all I'm doing, I think it'd be really cool if someone figured out a way to patch into the Tiger Spotlight DB and used it to manage music instead of iTunes. Music files are easy to recognize, right ? Nothing but ogg, mp3, aac, etc... Then you just plug it into some audio player, like XMMS, and presto, instant iTunes DB features. Skin it to look like iTunes if you're really into that look (it is beautiful even if it is a screen hog), add all the missing functionality, and you'll have a really rockin' media player.

[decksnap]

Don't get me wrong, iTunes does a really good job of doing what it does. I just don't like what it does. I like my system of managing music, it works for me. The database is fantastic and responds instantly like, well, a databse should be. But there are things about it that we should be wary of. For instance iTunes must be an absolute catastrophe when you start burning your music to DVD to make space. Does it have any way to know which song is on which DVD? Which regretable action does it take when your song is on another disc : A) It stops the music and waits for you to change discs, B) it skips the music and leaves you wondering where you put it. Because you know that once you stop looking at your music directories every day, you're going to quickly forget where you put which song.

When I rip music, I want it to be compatible on all my machines and everyone else's, not just people who are using iTunes and can download my xml file. I use Windows, Linux, and now Mac, so the best way to deal with all three is to keep my music organized myself. Now, if Tiger is going to have a feature where it keeps a up-to-date database of my entire file structure, why can't iTunes just patch into that without wanting to rearrange everything else ?

See, this is great if you like doing it that way. And Model-Ts were fantastic for people who licked black. But pity the fool who doesn't like proprietarty, vendor-lock in solutions. And sadly, I've noticed that most of the advice is, "Get used to it, it's better that way. Trust us." This is all too reminiscent of Microsoft ways of thinking.

To ramble on a bit further, because that's really all I'm doing, I think it'd be really cool if someone figured out a way to patch into the Tiger Spotlight DB and used it to manage music instead of iTunes. Music files are easy to recognize, right ? Nothing but ogg, mp3, aac, etc... Then you just plug it into some audio player, like XMMS, and presto, instant iTunes DB features. Skin it to look like iTunes if you're really into that look (it is beautiful even if it is a screen hog), add all the missing functionality, and you'll have a really rockin' media player.

When you rip music, it IS compatible for everyone. I don't understand what problem you are having- all the info in my mp3s is recognized across other PCs and Macs. I don't understand your comment about burning DVDs either- there is no issue there. Strange issues you seem to have indeed, but you won't find a better or more full-featured player.

[XNine]

Try audion. It's free now. Just google for it. There's also a slew of other players out there, go to macupdate.com and search for audio player. THERE IS an Ogg Vorbis plug-in for Quicktime and iTunes if you want that. But then again, Ogg is such an unstable format I don't know who in their right mind would have a big enough collection of ogg files to really say it's worth consideration.

You MIGHT be able to find Mint audio player, but its been discontinued now for a while....

[stcanard]

Does it have any way to know which song is on which DVD? Which regretable action does it take when your song is on another disc : A) It stops the music and waits for you to change discs, B) it skips the music and leaves you wondering where you put it.

Huh?

What are you expecting?

That iTunes will put the DVD in for you if the song is on another disk?

That iTunes will be able to play the song when the DVD isn't in the computer?

How does iTunes even know which songs are on which DVDs?

[kubark42]

Huh?

What are you expecting?

That iTunes will put the DVD in for you if the song is on another disk?

That iTunes will be able to play the song when the DVD isn't in the computer?

How does iTunes even know which songs are on which DVDs?

Well, I was expecting something more than a flamebait answer. Do you know ANYONE that would expect a computer program to sort through a CD wallet and pull out the proper DVD? No? Didn't think so. Let's stay on target.

iTunes should know which songs you have because you've imported them into the database. That's a really cool feature. I love how iTunes lets me get to my files so easily. I just don't like how it's a little more than insistant about organizing them in its own way.

A great leap forward would be not putting them into directories based on albums.

So, what do you plan to do to find your songs when you have 80GB of music and 40GB of free space?

THERE IS an Ogg Vorbis plug-in for Quicktime and iTunes if you want that. But then again, Ogg is such an unstable format I don't know who in their right mind would have a big enough collection of ogg files to really say it's worth consideration.


I realise that iTunes can support ogg. What I don't understand is why it doesn't support them straight out of the box. Yes, I know that the iPod doesn't and can't play them, but that doesn't mean that my comptuer can't. It still smells more of marketing, and less of engineering.

And I don't understand the comment about oggs and stability. At all. The only place I've ever seen ogg be anything less than a really great codec, one that seems to beat the others in comparison tests, is in iTunes. Why iTunes refuses to play them unless it has imported and sorted them in its own way, I cannot say. If anyone has advice, I'd love it.


When you rip music, it IS compatible for everyone. I don't understand what problem you are having- all the info in my mp3s is recognized across other PCs and Macs. I don't understand your comment about burning DVDs either- there is no issue there. Strange issues you seem to have indeed, but you won't find a better or more full-featured player.

Sorry, I wasn't clear. By compatible, I don't just mean, "Can it play in my music player?" I mean, is what I've done in one system compatible with another. If I've organized music and made playlists in Windows, can they be read in exactly the same way in other systems, on other computers? In iTunes, that's not the case, as it does NOT change tags the way it should. I discovered this when I spent 4 hours cleaning all the file names up and then found much to my chagrin that it was all lost. ALL OF IT. iTunes had simply updated its internal database without updating the tags. The proof is in the pudding, as I now have to go change all my Magnetic Fields songs AGAIN. So all the work that I did to get this straight would never have been compatible with anyone else's system, as it meant nothing without the internal iTunes DB to go along with it.

Equally, I'll try to better explain my DVD comment. Basically, how do you plan to manage your music when there's too much of it? How will you go about finding it before burning it, and how will you go about listening to it once it's been burned to DVD and removed from the HD? I just burn it into the same categories I have on my HD, and then ask winamp to play a directory. Works like a charm, and works on Linux, Windows, and Mac. I fear for my collection when I try to listen to music under Linux. If you've got some experience with Linux, you'll understand why having all these files spread all over the system is my worst nightmare.

Lastly, what do you guys think about using the Spotlight DB for music? Wouldn't that basically give us easy access to the best feature about iTunes? Just write a program to read the tags, an interface to show just music, and pipe it to a music player.

[decksnap]

-Get a bigger hard drive. That will solve your DVD issues. You honestly want to manage your music collection across multiple DVDs? Kinda defeats the purpose of having it all right there on demand.

-iTunes only puts files in directories based on albums if you tell it to. Your choice.

-Meta data does indeed transfer to other's computers when I give them files. I still don't know why you're having this problem.

"Lastly, what do you guys think about using the Spotlight DB for music? Wouldn't that basically give us easy access to the best feature about iTunes? Just write a program to read the tags, an interface to show just music, and pipe it to a music player."

Sounds like iTunes.

[stcanard]

Well, I was expecting something more than a flamebait answer.

Well a flamebait question naturally leads to a flamebait answer, so let's stay on target...

Do you know ANYONE that would expect a computer program to sort through a CD wallet and pull out the proper DVD? No? Didn't think so. Let's stay on target.

Precisely my point. That's why I don't understand your comment.

iTunes should know which songs you have because you've imported them into the database. That's a really cool feature. I love how iTunes lets me get to my files so easily. I just don't like how it's a little more than insistant about organizing them in its own way.

A great leap forward would be not putting them into directories based on albums.

There's your first mistake. You're using the filesystem. Don't. Use the metadata that iTunes nicely puts together for you, and the fact that the interface allows you to treat each song as if it were a file. I have never had to look at the file organization, even when transferring to Windows or Linux systems. That's what smart playlists are for, they are inifinitely better at organizing music to prepare for transfer.

So, what do you plan to do to find your songs when you have 80GB of music and 40GB of free space?

If you have 80GB of music that you are actively using you are either generating your own (musician) or a professional DJ. Then you buy a program that is suited for your job.

Otherwise the first step is to admit that you have a problem and spend way too much time on limewire and kazaa. Then look at what you actually listen to, organize, label, and archive the rest. Occasionally throw one of those DVDs in the drive, look at the nice id3 tags to see what you have that you never listen to.

Again, see? id3 tags. Metadata. Never need to touch the filesystem. There are better ways or organizing file like this.

Now, if what you're talking about is something more reasonable ... 20GB of music and a 10GB iPod. Like where I am right now. Its pretty simple, and iTunes is the only way I've found of doing this. I've build a playlist that syncs all 4 & 5 star songs, then fills the rest with 3 star sorted by least recently listened to. Now I've got my favourites, and a nice rotating list of my background music. I don't even notice that my iPod can't fit my entire library.

...snip...
In iTunes, that's not the case, as it does NOT change tags the way it should. I discovered this when I spent 4 hours cleaning all the file names up and then found much to my chagrin that it was all lost. ALL OF IT.

Were you changing id3 tags or filenames? I'm confused.

I've spent lots of time patching id3 tags. Dragged them to other systems and never had a problem. The id3 tags were fine.

Again, I hope you're not going behind iTunes back and going into the filesystem. If so you're asking for trouble. Make your lists. Select the tracks, drag and drop them onto the network share or wherever they are going.

Equally, I'll try to better explain my DVD comment. Basically, how do you plan to manage your music when there's too much of it? How will you go about finding it before burning it, and how will you go about listening to it once it's been burned to DVD and removed from the HD?

Well, I find it by queries (aka smart playlists).

Later, when I put the DVD back in, I get a picture of a disc in my iTunes interface, and a list of title/arist/album/genre that's on the DVD. That's what I can't figure out -- what more are you looking for? I can plug a DVD into my drive then search for "Sisters of Mercy". I don't see what more you're looking for.

[Jigglelicious]

Holy back from the grave threads Batman! I started this thread well over a year ago (different name, same person).

I still enjoy iTunes, but my basic complains still remain. I would like a small, lightweight program that can play anything I throw at it, and looks and work in a user friendly manner. Basically, i'm looking for winamp. I've found Mint Audio and I use that when I don't use iTunes, but its FAR from a Winamp replacement.

Why hasn't XMMS been ported to OSX yet?

[stcanard]

Holy back from the grave threads Batman! I started this thread well over a year ago (different name, same person).

Ahh, I hadn't noticed that Kubark resurrected an ancient thread.

I still enjoy iTunes, but my basic complains still remain. I would like a small, lightweight program that can play anything I throw at it

See, that I can understand, since iTunes only plays AAC/MP3. I keep VLC on hand as a "plays anything I throw at it" program.

I get very confused when people try to claim that iTunes organizes music poorly. Short of a full RDBMS there isn't anything more flexible!

Why hasn't XMMS been ported to OSX yet?

Because we would run away screaming!

Back in the days I used XMMS I could never get into the MP3 thing. Now I understand why, because it never let me organize my music, but insisted on playing directories or manually building lists of songs that I wanted.

[XNine]

See, that I can understand, since iTunes only plays AAC/MP3. I keep VLC on hand as a "plays anything I throw at it" program.

I get very confused when people try to claim that iTunes organizes music poorly. Short of a full RDBMS there isn't anything more flexible!


Not true. It plays AIFF, MP3, MP4/AAC, WAV, Lossless, etc. Ogg is OPTIONAL because its open-source, and if they were to take an open source plug-in, and completely steal it, then they'd be no better than MicroSoft. Then again, they also don't see Ogg being a viable format, since a fraction of music listeners, or even computer users even care about ogg.

When O first heard about Ogg, I was like "hell yeah, that's awesome." But after using it for a while and finding that it was just a pain in the arse all the way around, I stopped using it.

iTunes is gorgeous. It makes me feel.... Sexy. :D

[ChrisBrightwell]

So, what do you plan to do to find your songs when you have 80GB of music and 40GB of free space?
Label the discs? iTunes will load an MP3 CD or DVD and let you browse it just like it does anything else.

Burn entire artist collections to each disc, burn compliations to another, and label all of it.

I realise that iTunes can support ogg. What I don't understand is why it doesn't support them straight out of the box. Yes, I know that the iPod doesn't and can't play them, but that doesn't mean that my comptuer can't.I think you've answered your own question here. Why have something in iTunes that won't be moved to (or played on) the iPod? That's bound to confuse more users than it will benifit.

[iTunes] does NOT change tags the way it should.Sorry, but I still don't buy this. iTunes has never dropped the ID3 editing ball on me, nor do I ever expect that it will.

[ChrisBrightwell]

If you have 80GB of music [...] the first step is to admit that you have a problem and spend way too much time on limewire and kazaa.
Wow, I'm not sure if I've heard something so profoundly ignorant all day.

I just finished ripping a co-worker's CD collection for him (he got a new iPod and didn't have time to rip his stuff, so I offered to do it for a modest sum), and it weighed in at 93GB (160kb MP3).

It was all legal and all of it sees regular rotation.

[stcanard]

Wow, I'm not sure if I've heard something so profoundly ignorant all day.

I just finished ripping a co-worker's CD collection for him (he got a new iPod and didn't have time to rip his stuff, so I offered to do it for a modest sum), and it weighed in at 93GB (160kb MP3).

It was all legal and all of it sees regular rotation.

Well based on my music collection profile that's over 3000 CDs (650 albums@128 is 13GB =~ 16GB@160). When you consider that CDs have really only been around for about 20 years, 3000/20/52 means he's been buying almost 3 CDs a week for 2 decades. IMO that is a monumental collection, and I bet fairly unusual. If that's all music, and he listens to it all regularly I am quite surprised. And yes, after spending $45,000 (based on an average CD price of $15), I do wonder if he should look at his priorities.

But in the context of what I was replying to, I bet he's not trying to cram it onto a 40GB drive.

[infect]

Well based on my music collection profile that's over 3000 CDs (650 albums@128 is 13GB =~ 16GB@160). When you consider that CDs have really only been around for about 20 years, 3000/20/52 means he's been buying almost 3 CDs a week for 2 decades. IMO that is a monumental collection, and I bet fairly unusual. If that's all music, and he listens to it all regularly I am quite surprised. And yes, after spending $45,000 (based on an average CD price of $15), I do wonder if he should look at his priorities.

But in the context of what I was replying to, I bet he's not trying to cram it onto a 40GB drive.

Haha. I think I enjoyed reading that almost as much as you enjoyed typing it.

To add my two cents regarding this topic, I'd just like to say that one of the biggest problems, in my opinion, regarding Platform dependent applications (lest we forget that although iTunes has become a windows application as well, its usability philosophy stems from all things mac) is that unfamiliar users do not understand "the way things are done" on the original platform write off their ignorance as a usability issue. "This doesn't work the way I am used to working therefore it is bad." What about all of the other people for whom that is the way they are used to working?

My basic point is this: Instead of lamenting the lack of "good engineering work," try to understand what you are using and why you are using it. If it's not meant to solve the problems you're having, then ultimately it is your responsibility to find something that does. For the vast majority of users, iTunes does solve the problem of keeping their music library organized, or they wouldn't use it. It is called the "iTunes Music Library" and not the "iTunes Sound Sampling Station" for a reason.

[James Philp]

Not true. It plays AIFF, MP3, MP4/AAC, WAV, Lossless, etc. Ogg is OPTIONAL because its open-source, and if they were to take an open source plug-in, and completely steal it, then they'd be no better than MicroSoft. Then again, they also don't see Ogg being a viable format, since a fraction of music listeners, or even computer users even care about ogg.

When O first heard about Ogg, I was like "hell yeah, that's awesome." But after using it for a while and finding that it was just a pain in the arse all the way around, I stopped using it.

iTunes is gorgeous. It makes me feel.... Sexy. :D

I don;t think you quite got the point of stcanard, he was bigging up iTunes too!
I really don't see what all the fuss is about - here's a novel way to review music - the Finder! Column view, simple!
VLC is V good too.

ACQlite is a lovely little downloading app too - it downloads an iTunes-compatible track (AAC (MP4), MP3 etc - anything you have specified as opening defaultly to iTunes), verifies it, copies it to iTunes (into the folder structure) puts it automatically into a playlist of your choice (so you can keep track) and deletes the original - clean and easy. It can also play it straight away and other stuff. Then, if the MP3 sucks, you can use "whack current track" script (google scripts for itunes) to get rid of it straight away! Also, it runs on the Limewire servers, you don't HAVE to share any data, and is Freeware!

P.S. - changing folder structure / file names within the itunes music folder is a BAD idea - you're either going to be wasting time, or mess things up.
P.P.S. - I dunno if this works, but after updating id3 tags, try "Consolidate Library" under advanced - you never know!

[James Philp]

Originally Posted by stcanard

If you have 80GB of music [...] the first step is to admit that you have a problem and spend way too much time on limewire and kazaa.

Wow, I'm not sure if I've heard something so profoundly ignorant all day.

I just finished ripping a co-worker's CD collection for him (he got a new iPod and didn't have time to rip his stuff, so I offered to do it for a modest sum), and it weighed in at 93GB (160kb MP3).

It was all legal and all of it sees regular rotation.

Hold on there, this guy's basic thread was that he was having problems because he would DOWNLOAD this music and just want to play it before deciding whether it went into iTunes - lest we forget that!
And Yes, 80GB of music seems an enourmous ammount.
@3000 CD's ripping at even 15x (CD average length 1h) that's 25 days @ 8 hours a day! - that's 5 working weeks! - You're a very good friend! Hourly sum of $2 an hour would get you $400. Yummy sums!

Also, why MP3 160? When there is THAT MUCH, do you not think a more efficient codec would have been applicable? I use AAC 128 and it sounds pretty good through GRADO SR80's (you SHOULD know what they are) for 99.9% of my music. MP3 at the same 128 sounds A LOT worse. I think MP3 equivalent to AAC 128 is around 192.

[James Philp]

Also, why MP3 160? When there is THAT MUCH, do you not think a more efficient codec would have been applicable? I use AAC 128 and it sounds pretty good through GRADO SR80's (you SHOULD know what they are) for 99.9% of my music.

But i do suppose .1% of 93Gb worth is quite a few tracks! Haha! :D

[ChrisBrightwell]

why MP3 160? Because I work and play in enviroments and applications that don't always play well (if at all) with AAC.

My backup MP3 player is a MP3CD player. My PC at work, due mostly to network restrictions, doesn't have an AAC player. Most of the people I work with on freelance projects don't have AAC-capable apps.

I understand that both MP3 and AAC are "open" standards, but MP3 is just more prevalent. I'm going to wind up re-ripping all of it, I'm sure, to something better down the road, but I'm content with 160MP3 for now.

Now, to address your bitrate question -- 160k MP3 and 128k AAC are, to my ears, indestinguishable (sp?). When I ripped all of my albums, I had a 20GB iPod and a 40GB system drive.

160k MP3, for me, was the perfect balance between quality, compatibility, and filesize. YMMV, obviously.

I asked him what to use and he said, "Just use whatever you use." I explained that 128AAC would save *tons* of space over 160MP3, but he handed me a 250GB HDD and said he'd just bought a home media receiver (not sure which one) that didn't support AAC.

I had burned him a CD-R of some of the MP3s I had in my collection so he could give it a listen on his system at the house (they were albums that he owned, so he could do side-by-side comparisions w/ the original CD and the compressed files) and he couldn't tell the difference, so we went with 160k MP3.

[James Philp]

I asked him what to use and he said, "Just use whatever you use." I explained that 128AAC would save *tons* of space over 160MP3, but he handed me a 250GB HDD and said he'd just bought a home media receiver (not sure which one) that didn't support AAC.
MP3.
Fair enough, but I would still love to know how long it took to do all this ripping! Days and days methinks? I did my collection of ~15Gb and it took a long while!

[kubark42]

I don't know what made my experience so different from all of yours, but I know the effort I put into arranging my tags is GONE. I changed the tag information using the info screen in iTunes, so I might have done something wrong, I might not have pushed the right button somewhere. I have no idea why this was, and I'm open to input. (And, no, I wasn't changing the filename or directories because, yes, that would really mess things up with the DB.)

(P.S.- I wonder if it wasn't only the tags on ogg songs that I lost? I've got both mixed together. I know that I said id3 in the beginning, so maybe I threw you guys on the wrong track?)

Originally Posted by stcanard
If you have 80GB of music [...] the first step is to admit that you have a problem and spend way too much time on limewire and kazaa.

I have to agree with ChrisBrightwell. This was just mind boggling bizzare. I don't have 80GB of music. I pulled that number out of thin air. Next time, I'll say "I have only PI snagglepuffs free but I have MU snagglepuffs of music," okay? Because I think the basic question remains unsolved, and you spent a whole lot of time picking apart a made-up number. Although I do like your superplaylists idea. I just don't see the need for it. Does iTunes really need to handle my music? Isn't it just enough to know where it is and let me put it where I want it?


-Get a bigger hard drive. That will solve your DVD issues. You honestly want to manage your music collection across multiple DVDs? Kinda defeats the purpose of having it all right there on demand.

Hey, that's a great idea. Why didn't people just think of this before? Who needs removable media? Why, we'll just all go out and buy new hard drives! And when I don't have enough space in my computer for all my hard drives, I'll just swap out the ones I'm not using.



"Lastly, what do you guys think about using the Spotlight DB for music? Wouldn't that basically give us easy access to the best feature about iTunes? Just write a program to read the tags, an interface to show just music, and pipe it to a music player."

Sounds like iTunes.

You almost had it. Sounds like OPENSOURCE iTunes.

[James Philp]

Does iTunes really need to handle my music? Isn't it just enough to know where it is and let me put it where I want it?
Ok, so having a single folder as a download 'Bin' Would be useful, but this can also be done in a playlist / "whack current track" that I explained in a previous post.
BUT - What about for the majority of the music you own? You will have to create a folder, name it, open it, create another one, name it etc, to get a decent standardised structure to you files. What then will you do if you want a mix of a few tracks? Create aliases? Copy files into another directory - Ouch!
iTunes does thigs with such ease man, smart playlists, normal playlists, I get a headach simply thinking about having to chage the file structure manually, and "Creating Directories" A La SoundJam.


Hey, that's a great idea. Why didn't people just think of this before? Who needs removable media? Why, we'll just all go out and buy new hard drives! And when I don't have enough space in my computer for all my hard drives, I'll just swap out the ones I'm not using.

Umm, I think you're forgetting external drives! You can get 80GB for ~$90 - Maybe not quite as cheap as using DVD-R - $17 for ~100GB, but imagine the kind of problems you're going to get into while trying to maintain a structure to your DVD's - alphbetically until you get new music? You're goingto run into a lot of headaches - Like Mac OS 1 being split over 2 disks - constantly having to swap! Imagine you want to make a good playlist up, and so you do, and then your computer keeps asking for different DVDs so you can transfer it to your music player! - Ouch!

External drive sounds like the best bet, and if you don't have USB 2.0 or Firewire, where've you been?
Get a PCMCIA card (Laptop) or internal card (desktop) (all all-in-one computers have at least one of these if not both).
So enough sacasm ok? You can get 250GB for $180 these days!
(All prices based on Amazon when I wrote this)

[James Philp]

I don't know what made my experience so different from all of yours, but I know the effort I put into arranging my tags is GONE. I changed the tag information using the info screen in iTunes, so I might have done something wrong, I might not have pushed the right button somewhere. I have no idea why this was, and I'm open to input.

I really don't know what's up. I know I have imported songs and named them later, and then when you reveal the file (apple-R) they have been re-ordered into the respecive folders. Do you have the "Keep iTunes Music Folder Organized" checked under the "Advanced" tab in prefences? Simple I know, but that would be the only way I can think that if you changed tags in iTunes, the folder structre would change.
(iTunes folder structure being iTunes Music>Artists>Album>songs)

For example, changing an album (with multiple artists) by making it a compilation SHOULD take the album folders out of the artist folders (a single track in the same album name folders within multiple artists folders), combine the album folders into one, delete all the artist folders, and place the single album folder into iTunes Music>Compilations. - Can you imagine the legwork needed to do that by hand! And it preserves the Artist ID3 tag. - A very complicated procedure - wish i could draw a picture.

[ChrisBrightwell]

Fair enough, but I would still love to know how long it took to do all this ripping! Days and days methinks? I did my collection of ~15Gb and it took a long while!Well I had my PC and my Powerbook going at the same time (not 24/7, obviously) and it took about a month.

[James Philp]

Well I had my PC and my Powerbook going at the same time (not 24/7, obviously) and it took about a month.
Did you use iTunes?
If so, how did you get the two computers to sync the libraries.
The only way i can think is to do them sepatarely, drag from one to another (at the artist level of the iTunes Music folders) and then do Add to library, is this basically what you did?

[stcanard]

I have to agree with ChrisBrightwell. This was just mind boggling bizzare. I don't have 80GB of music. I pulled that number out of thin air. Next time, I'll say "I have only PI snagglepuffs free but I have MU snagglepuffs of music," okay? Because I think the basic question remains unsolved, and you spent a whole lot of time picking apart a made-up number.

Huh? You think writing one sentence is a lot of time?

Of course I did spend some time taking apart Chris's number as that wasn't made up, and yes, I do think that his friend averaging 2.5 CDs a week every week for 2 decades could well be indicative of obsessive or addictive behaviour.

Although I do like your superplaylists idea. I just don't see the need for it. Does iTunes really need to handle my music? Isn't it just enough to know where it is and let me put it where I want it?

No, iTunes doesn't need to handle your music. But you seem to think it is insufficient to organize the music, and that is what I am refuting. Anything you can do in a directory structure and be done in iTunes playlists, and there's a number of things like the smart upating that cannot.

But, back to the original point you brought up -- I came into this because you said that iTunes had insufficient ability to back up to a DVD and organize:

For instance iTunes must be an absolute catastrophe when you start burning your music to DVD to make space

Now, you still haven't answered my question: What do you expect it to do?

It writes everything to a disc, and carries all the id3 tag information with it so that you can pop the disc into [any] machine see who/what is archived, and in the case of iTunes search the contents based on that id3 information.

What improvements would you suggest? If you're going to say iTunes is a catastrophe archiving I assume you have a better idea?

[ChrisBrightwell]

Did you use iTunes?Yes.
If so, how did you get the two computers to sync the libraries.
The only way i can think is to do them sepatarely, drag from one to another (at the artist level of the iTunes Music folders) and then do Add to library, is this basically what you did?Basically, yeah. No magic tricks here.

[ChrisBrightwell]

[...] I do think that his friend averaging 2.5 CDs a week every week for 2 decades could well be indicative of obsessive or addictive behaviour. [...]
To be a bit more fair, it is his *family's* collection, which includes a wife and two kids.

They have everything from bluegrass and country to jazz, rock, metal, funk, old-school hip-hop, and VeggieTales. There are even some discs of Native America, African, and Asian music.

It was an interesting collection to say the least. :)

[stcanard]

To be a bit more fair, it is his *family's* collection, which includes a wife and two kids.

They have everything from bluegrass and country to jazz, rock, metal, funk, old-school hip-hop, and VeggieTales. There are even some discs of Native America, African, and Asian music.

It was an interesting collection to say the least. :)

You would have to have quite a range to fill up that much unique music!

As a family collection that's reasonable :) I do wonder how many people stop to think about how much they have spent on music collections over the years. I know people with over 1,000 albums (stretching back into vinyl) and it's mindboggling when you sit down and add it up. $15 here and there becomes a huge sum over time!

[ChrisBrightwell]

[...] $15 here and there becomes a huge sum over time!I have more than 400 albums, all mine, but I rarely pay more than $12 for a CD.

I usually get what I want the week it's released, almost guaranteeing that I'll score it between $10 and $12.

Additionally, I'm a huge fan of second-hand CD shops, so I buy a lot of used discs for $3 to $10 on a fairly regular basis. I've even scored a few gems from eBay.

People look at my CD and DVD collections (more than 700 discs total) and are like, "How do you afford all of that?" My answer? Never pay MSRP. :)

[Bedawyn]

If it's not meant to solve the problems you're having, then ultimately it is your responsibility to find something that does.
Which is exactly what he tried to do, asking about other apps, and promptly got jumped on for daring to suggest that something from Apple wasn't perfect for everyone. (With the stock answers to any such criticism, of course: "spend more money on hardware" and "rearrange your life and brain to serve the computer; don't expect it to serve you")

For the record, I've also spent hours spread over months updating and changing ID3 tags in iTunes only to find that when I burned the songs to disc or opened them in another mp3 player that the tag changes were not reflected in the song files themselves but apparently only in the iTunes database.

[stcanard]

Which is exactly what he tried to do, asking about other apps, and promptly got jumped on for daring to suggest that something from Apple wasn't perfect for everyone.

Here is the statement again:

For instance iTunes must be an absolute catastrophe when you start burning your music to DVD to make space

I asked why it was a catastrophe. I am still waiting for that answer. If I missed the answer, or if you believe you know that answer, please eludicate. It is very difficult to present a viable solution to a problem that the poster refuses to define.

If you are finding that updating info in iTunes and then exporting the songs is not being reflectes in the tags, please provide an example. This is a serious bug, and needs to be addressed. If you are going "behind iTunes back" and directly into the filesystem, of course the results will be undefined.

If you think that explaining to someone how they can use the software to do what they want it to do is unreasonable (instead of just letting them complain that it doesn't work exactly the way *they* are used to based on experience with a much older, less flexible program) again, please expand.

[dubbz]

If foobar2000 were ported to Mac OS X the gates of heaven whould open and the angels whould sing its glory and the world whould be at peace. Well, maybe not, but it's one of those Windows apps I'm going to miss...

I do miss some more options when it comes to audio players on the Mac. iTunes basically killed the competition. It managed to do it because it's very good, but the situation sucks if you don't like iTunes. I like iTunes, but I do wish there were some strong alternatives.

Curious to see what the Whamb team is up to with v2.0... They seem to be taking their time.

[stcanard]

If foobar2000 were ported to Mac OS X the gates of heaven whould open and the angels whould sing its glory and the world whould be at peace.

Okay, maybe you can explain, what is the big deal with foobar2000? The guys at Ars were so big on it that I tried it on my work machine (this was in the days before I had tried iTunes).

I just couldn't see what the deal was. It is the footprint? I saw no real improvement over the days when I just put a CD in the drive. I could tell it to play all the songs in a directory, or I could manually create a playlist, but there was no way to really make use of a large collection.

Maybe its the way I listen is different from most people? I have a varied taste, I know. Lately I've been bored with what I was listening to, so I've put it on a playlist of the top 25 sorted by least recently played.

The other day I had an urge to listen to my K-Os, so I go into the library and select that artist. I can do that with Foobar, but then it's more of a pain to also put him into my hip-hop collection, and if I do that, getting Crabbukit added to the colleciton of my favourite songs requires manually going through the entire collection and picking the songs.

In my "general" listening I like to filter out the stuff I've listened to in the last week, and if I get tired of a song I know that dropping it to 3 stars automatically takes it out of those favourite song lists. Its such a pain in Foobar or Winamp to have to manually go through all my playlists and take it out.

Anyway, to stop rambling: Since as far as I can tell, iTunes is a superset of Foobar, what is it about foobar that you miss? After using it for 6 months then switching to iTunes I couldn't find anything that I missed, and going back would be painful.

[infect]

For the poster that wanted to play songs in iTunes without adding them to their library, I ran across this and thought I'd give you a heads up:

http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20050413022159670

Hopefully that helps.