Why I don't recommend Macs [Archive]

ChrisH3677

Mar 7, 2004, 04:58 PM

edit: I'm not gunna change what I've written, coz that would make all the respondents look silly. So, for anyone who hasn't read this yet I'll just say:
I apologize for tone of this post - I should have edited it a bit more. It's been a tough weekend. I shouldn't have been posting at all. But to those who responded constructively - thanks, it helped.
I should have titled it "Have any other switchers struggled with..." and left out everything about not recommending Macs.

I've been working in the IT industry in the DOS/Windows world for many years. Last August after wanting a Mac for nearly 20 years, I finally switched.

One of the things I was really looking forward to was the legendary ease of use.

hahahahahahahaha. Boy are Apple having a lend of themselves!!

Yeah - maybe it's user-friendly for a computer newbie, but for a switcher, I found it quite a steep learning curve, and still struggle with some things.

I was stunned to find OSX had no context sensitive help. In most Windows programs, you would be able to right-click on most any screen element and get help on that item.

For some reason, Apple must arrogantly assume their software is too good for that. Sorry Apple. it aint. In OSX it's trial and error i.e. "I wonder what happens if I click this thingy here...."

Things I've struggled with....
- No context sensitive help
- having the application menu separate from the application window (ie anchored the top of the screen)
- the messy install/uninstall procedure. Why should a user need to know where programs are installed? And then how to find them???
- no programs menu (Apple assume that all the programs you'll ever want to use, you'll keep in the dock. pfft!!!)
- the "My Computer" type file navigation. Most Windows users prefer Explorer
- No Apply and Cancel buttons in preference screens!!!!!!!!!!!! That one really amazes me.
- different keyboard shortcuts (esp the copy, cut, paste, undo keys)

I run an IT department and am often asked by users to recommend a computer for them at home. I assess their requirements hoping there is something they want to do that the Mac excels in. But there isn't. They just wanna surf the net, do some word processing and take work home occasionally. So I've never recommended a Mac - even tho they can do all those things on a Mac - because I don't want them having to struggle with the same learning curve I did. I don't want to become their home help desk.

I love OSX (for it's looks and stability), but as I say, I can't recommend it to Joe Averages coz of things like the above list. (I do tell all my peers they should be using Macs - but they off course just laugh and re-adjust their blinkers)

The whole software compatibility issue runs a distant second as a reason not to switch.

I know OSX is evolving so I hope before long these things will change.

Grimace

Mar 7, 2004, 05:05 PM

- the messy install/uninstall procedure. Why should a user need to know where programs are installed? And then how to find them???

What?? How is this messy!!!?!? Go into Applications and delete it!! That is where ALL of the programs are stored! In Windows, deleting the program file does NOT necessarily delete the program. C drive, program files, etc. - how is THAT any easier?? Not all programs can be removed with the install/uninstall utility.

Grimace

Mar 7, 2004, 05:07 PM

"So I've never recommended a Mac"

"I do tell all my peers they should be using Macs"

hmmm........

Doraemon

Mar 7, 2004, 05:10 PM

- No context sensitive help

Ok. Would be nice to have it, but generally the help system is really good.

having the application menu separate from the application window (ie anchored the top of the screen)

Much cleaner that way.

the messy install/uninstall procedure. Why should a user need to know where programs are installed? And then how to find them???

Huh? Because you'd like to be in control where the app is installed?! Besides, it's the same thing on Windows machines, where you have to select a path.
And how to find the apps is really not that difficult when you just selected the location yourself. And if you didn't it's the applications folder by default.

no programs menu (Apple assume that all the programs you'll ever want to use, you'll keep in the dock. pfft!!!)

Uhm...yes. No problem.
But you DO know, that you can e.g. have an entire folder in your dock?!

the "My Computer" type file navigation. Most Windows users prefer Explorer

When you display the folders in columns you basically have an Explorer-like view.

No Apply and Cancel buttons in preference screens!!!!!!!!!!!! That one really amazes me.

What for? When you select a new setting it's automatically activated (except for networking prefs) and if you want to change it back, then just do it, man.

different keyboard shortcuts (esp the copy, cut, paste, undo keys)

Apple INVENTED these shortcuts that where later copied by MS. You're not seriously blaming Apple for that, are you? Besides, it's really not that difficult to hit the Apple key instead of control.

AssassinOfGates

Mar 7, 2004, 05:19 PM

albeik

Mar 7, 2004, 05:28 PM

I've been working in the IT industry in the DOS/Windows world for many years. Last August after wanting a Mac for nearly 20 years, I finally switched.

Same here...

Yeah - maybe it's user-friendly for a computer newbie, but for a switcher, I found it quite a steep learning curve, and still struggle with some things.

As a switcher I found myself to learn things differently, mainly because I was used to the windows environment. However, it took me less than a week to figure out the ins and outs of panther. Not sure why your struggling!? If you excel in windows, mac shouldn't be that hard, especially if you now unix.

I was stunned to find OSX had no context sensitive help. In most Windows programs, you would be able to right-click on most any screen element and get help on that item. For some reason, Apple must arrogantly assume their software is too good for that. Sorry Apple. it aint. In OSX it's trial and error i.e. "I wonder what happens if I click this thingy here...."

Sure, I did notice that. It would've been nice for the mac to have something similar. but again, is it really hard to figure out what an icon means (assuming your taking about the finder).

Things I've struggled with....
- No context sensitive help
- having the application menu separate from the application window (ie anchored the top of the screen)
- the messy install/uninstall procedure. Why should a user need to know where programs are installed? And then how to find them???
- no programs menu (Apple assume that all the programs you'll ever want to use, you'll keep in the dock. pfft!!!)
- the "My Computer" type file navigation. Most Windows users prefer Explorer
- No Apply and Cancel buttons in preference screens!!!!!!!!!!!! That one really amazes me.
- different keyboard shortcuts (esp the copy, cut, paste, undo keys)

- would've been a plus
- that is one thing that I thought was great! I have more valuble space! becuase I will be using only ONE menu at a time. having to explorer windows beside each other with their menus is really a waste!
- i am not sure how u came up with this. Mac's lack of "windows" install/uninstall with registry association is to me a god-blessing. you can drag your application ANYWHERe u want, and it would run fine... u don't want it, then drag it to the bin.
- "Applications is always on the left of your finder" or you can just drag the application folder to the dock -- holding the mouse button will show a menu of your applications. In windows you will have to go to Start->programs everytime though...
- "Most Windows users prefer Explorer" ?? thats like saying most bmw drivers prefer bmw cars!! (though, explorer != bmw) not sure whats ur argument here
- some do and some not (like windows) sure would've liked it when changing backgrounds...
- is it? what applications are u using? its the same over here...

I run an IT department and am often asked by users to recommend a computer for them at home. I assess their requirements hoping there is something they want to do that the Mac excels in. But there isn't. They just wanna surf the net, do some word processing and take work home occasionally. So I've never recommended a Mac - even tho they can do all those things on a Mac - because I don't want them having to struggle with the same learning curve I did. I don't want to become their home help desk.

I love OSX (for it's looks and stability), but as I say, I can't recommend it to Joe Averages coz of things like the above list. (I do tell all my peers they should be using Macs - but they off course just laugh and re-adjust their blinkers)

Sure. Just remember that is still from your point of view and from your experience. Statistically not justifiable.

The whole software compatibility issue runs a distant second as a reason not to switch.

Can you give us more details?

I know OSX is evolving so I hope before long these things will change.
the mac is evolving and will continue, i hope too! :)

abhishekit

Mar 7, 2004, 05:33 PM

Things I've struggled with....
- No context sensitive help
- having the application menu separate from the application window (ie anchored the top of the screen)
- the messy install/uninstall procedure. Why should a user need to know where programs are installed? And then how to find them???
- no programs menu (Apple assume that all the programs you'll ever want to use, you'll keep in the dock. pfft!!!)
- the "My Computer" type file navigation. Most Windows users prefer Explorer
- No Apply and Cancel buttons in preference screens!!!!!!!!!!!! That one really amazes me.
- different keyboard shortcuts (esp the copy, cut, paste, undo keys)

-whenever you open an app, you can access help for that app at the top menu, I dont see how thats a problem.
-application menu is perfect at the top of the screen, it remains at the same place for evry app..so thats a good feature according to me.
-messy install/uninstall procedure!!! what you talkin bout man!!! you used windows..you should know better :D
-programs menu, there is a dock, a sidebar in the findermenu, what else can one need...
-my comp, type navigation..that may be your personal prefernce..the column view is very good .
-who needs apply cancel buttons..extra click.!!!
-different keyboard shortcuts...that wont take much long getting used to...

SO...congratulations for your mac, and you would absolutely start recommending it to everyone within 2 weeks . i bet ;) so then we would see pst from you 'why i recommend macs to evryone' and you would state your original reasons.. :D

Les Kern

Mar 7, 2004, 05:43 PM

Well, there you go. Proof that I have wasted a goodly portion of my life.
I only have one thing to say on this: I know this IT guy (I'm one too). His name is Sam and he's quite nice. He has the ear of a fair number of people, who look to him for sound networking/computing advice. So what's the problem? The guy is an idiot, who couldn't spell "cat" if you spot him the "C" and "A". Now since the issues that this poster brings up in defending his rather strong belief that Macs aren't very good and he can't recommend them, and those facts have been proven to be based on a real lack of understanding, it can be extrapolated out that this guy ain't worth the time to refute. And that's been my experience in the PC-centric world: Self-proclaimed know-it-all's, who have an ear based on the "gosh, you're a computer whiz?" scenario, pushing information that's faulty at best.
Let it rest.
Meanwhile, I'm going back to being incredibly productive.

applekid

Mar 7, 2004, 05:59 PM

If you really don't like Macs, I'll be more than happy to take your PowerBook.

Horrortaxi

Mar 7, 2004, 06:01 PM

Oh my goodness, Mac OS has some differences to Windows. If word gets out to the general public there will be riots and murders. Holy crap!

Relax. If you're more comfortable using Windows, then by all means use Windows.

Grimace

Mar 7, 2004, 06:03 PM

I'm not sure if you thought switching would yield the same environment that you left. Surely, you knew that some things would be different.

That's personal taste - not a reason something doesn't work well.

tiktokfx

Mar 7, 2004, 06:08 PM

You can't handle using a different key modifier for cut/copy/paste?

How in the world are you employed in the computer industry?

Sparky's

Mar 7, 2004, 06:28 PM

Maybe he should install VPC and then feel at home and still have the best of both worlds. Lets see Windows come up with VMAC!!!!!

BornAgainMac

Mar 7, 2004, 06:50 PM

- no programs menu (Apple assume that all the programs you'll ever want

Drag the Applications folder to your dock. Click on the folder on dock and hold your mouse button down. See, all your programs can be accessed from the Dock. For the most recent apps, go to the Apple menu and go to Recent Items.

Pass Apple your comments on their Support page because they may add the feature on the next upgrade.

I have watched few PC users with a few years of experience with Windows on a Mac. They actually don't understand why it has to be different than Windows. Everything has to work just like Windows.

ChrisH3677

Mar 7, 2004, 06:51 PM

As expected, mostly blinkered responses. And flames of course. Sad. Doesn't help anyone.

Narrow minded defensiveness is one of the biggest obstacles to getting the Mac better accepted - and always has been.

You try and tell Mac users what you don't like, and they just put their blinkered narrow minds on and flame you.

You try to tell Windows users what's so good about the Mac, and they just put their blinkered narrow minds on and flame you.

To Les Kern who thought it especially important to get personal. You've got no idea. If you really need me to rub your nose in it, keep up your personal attacks.

There's two things I do want to expand on...
- Context sensitive help means not having to fire up help and search for what something does - you just click and it's there.
- In Windows, you run an install program and at the end have a link in your programs menu. In OSX some programs will install in the Application folder and others you have to open a compressed file and you have to manually drag and drop its contents to the Applications folder. Then in both case, you navigate to the Apps folder to run it. If you run it often use the "Keep in dock" option. Yes you can also drag the apps folder to the Dock for quicker access. Some Windows installers ask too many questions, but in the main, the Windows approach is much tidier and more user friendly.

(Both Windows and OSX could benefit from a program menu based on application categories. I use DockDockDock a Dock switcher, as my application launcher and I've categorized all my apps - eg music, utilities, development, graphics, office, internet etc etc)

I can see the benefits of some things in OSX I've had problems with (eg the application menu) but they still do present a learning curve - altho I do wonder if I'm too experienced in Windows... and maybe the Joe Averages would grasp these things quicker.

I wouldn't go back to Windows if you paid me because the other benefits of Macs (eg robustness, reliability, many other user-friendly things etc) outweigh these issues, so I am prepared to learn all these quirks and differences and get so used to it that I too will flame someone one day for daring to suggest some things are difficult.

ChrisH3677

Mar 7, 2004, 06:55 PM

You can't handle using a different key modifier for cut/copy/paste?

How in the world are you employed in the computer industry?

I can handle it fine but when I am doing support on people's PCs its embarrassing pressing alt-c and wondering why it's not working! :D

Sun Baked

Mar 7, 2004, 07:01 PM

As expected, mostly blinkered responses. And flames of course. Sad. Doesn't help anyone.I would, but I'm too busy laughing at the thread right now. http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6694&stc=1

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2622http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2622

ChrisH3677

Mar 7, 2004, 07:05 PM

Drag the Applications folder to your dock. Click on the folder on dock and hold your mouse button down. See, all your programs can be accessed from the Dock. For the most recent apps, go to the Apple menu and go to Recent Items.

Pass Apple your comments on their Support page because they may add the feature on the next upgrade.

I have watched few PC users with a few years of experience with Windows on a Mac. They actually don't understand why it has to be different than Windows. Everything has to work just like Windows.

Thanks BornAgainMac. It's nice to see someone can respond rationally.

You are right too. There are some things I don't understand can't be more like Windows to make the transition easier (eg context help, not having to dig into folders to find newly installed applications, and maybe some others), but I shouldn't have put the Application Menu in that original list.

Apple and MS do nick ideas from each other (MS more so). Apple though tends to take something and make it better - eg the command-tab between applications. MS has had that for years but never given it any extra functionality, such as Apple have done - esp in Panther. (Correct me if I''m wrong - OS9 didn't have it did it?)

Sparky's

Mar 7, 2004, 07:07 PM

I have been seeing this debate for over 15 years now ever since I switched in '88. In the Graphics world MACs dominate and have even been used extensively to produce PC commercials (magine that!). I am now in my industry forced to use both platforms, and have been for many years. I use WIN 2K and OS 9.2.2 and OS X, and I think the one with the narrow minded blinkers on is the one who posted this in the first place. Having experience in both worlds and needing to know both platforms in a very demanding production environment has only helped me come to the conclusion that the only thing good about the trash can in WIN is to put the OS in it and FLUSH!!!

Grimace

Mar 7, 2004, 07:36 PM

you're just an idiot... plain and simple

Okay, that's just uncalled for. No personal insults. That's not the purpose of these forums. Read the rules so you don't get banned.

I didn't know you could drag the Applications folder to the Dock - see, everyone learns from discussion.

There may be a learning curve for Pro windows users who know the minute ins and outs - but for most basic computer users - I still think that OSX is a little more intuitive.

The learning curve going from Mac --->> Windows must be 10x worse!!

crackpip

Mar 7, 2004, 07:36 PM

As expected, mostly blinkered responses. And flames of course. Sad. Doesn't help anyone.

Narrow minded defensiveness is one of the biggest obstacles to getting the Mac better accepted - and always has been.

You try and tell Mac users what you don't like, and they just put their blinkered narrow minds on and flame you.

You try to tell Windows users what's so good about the Mac, and they just put their blinkered narrow minds on and flame you.

To Les Kern who thought it especially important to get personal. You've got no idea. If you really need me to rub your nose in it, keep up your personal attacks.

I'm not saying flames are necessary, but when you post a note with a bunch of osx flaws which are really just differences between windows and osx, that's what happens. I'm not saying osx is perfect. It's not. But IMO everyone of your complaints is actually something I dislike about windows. Windows is so full of terrible UI design that you get used to it. Then everything else feels like its poorly done. In a few years, I'd like to see some productivity studies done again. The last showed people familiar with Macs were more productive than people familiar with PCs, but they were done before osx.

There's two things I do want to expand on...
- Context sensitive help means not having to fire up help and search for what something does - you just click and it's there.

In general, context sensitive items are considered poor UI design, since the user must figure out what the context was to get back to a previous option or menu item. Sometimes it can be rather irritating trying to find out why a certain menu item is greyed out or is missing.

- In Windows, you run an install program... tidier and more user friendly.

I wouldn't say tidier, but it is more uniform in the Windows world. Most of this stems from hiding what is really going on from the user, which in turn comes from the myriad of places files (.dll's etc.) for an app are placed in windows. Personally, I think all software designers should use the drag and drop method unless they specifically need to install files into other places. Most apps are completely self-contained, only generating a pref file in the Library. You can put the app wherever you want.

I'd totally recommend Launchbar as an app launcher. It is such a sweet application. You use a keyboard shortcut to activate, then type in a few letters of the app's name and hit return.

Also, welcome to the mac world. It'll take some time to get used to things, but I think you'll find it very rewarding. Although, now you'll be a user in a platform that is always being threatened. Right now, I'm having to argue against people who feel that Macs are luxury items that don't have much of a place in an academic research computing environment despite the fact that, for my case, they are superior in almost every way, including price. This is what sucks about being a mac user-- having to justify your choice all the time. Oh, and dealing with IT people who think they are above supporting macs.

crackpip

Macmaniac

Mar 7, 2004, 07:43 PM

If you need help on a program simply click the Help menu on the top of the screen. It will tell you anything you need to know about the program you have open. Also hit the help button on your keyboard. I'm not sure if the PB's do have it but if its there it can bring up help on a program.

Sparky's

Mar 7, 2004, 08:21 PM

I didn't know you could drag the Applications folder to the Dock - see, everyone learns from discussion.

You can drag any folder, app, even the Main HD or other partioned HDs to the dock and have it there to open instantly.

spookz

Mar 7, 2004, 08:29 PM

Most apps are completely self-contained, only generating a pref file in the Library. You can put the app wherever you want.

that was an eye opener for me in my move to mac (not quite complete tho). loved it! i always liked the little self contained windows apps. single exe's that generate nothing more than a reg /ini file. now.... nothing but bloat

ps; you can move the app to another dir and still retain prefs unlike win progs.

Koodauw

Mar 7, 2004, 08:35 PM

I would, but I'm too busy laughing at the thread right now. http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6694&stc=1

http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2622http://forums.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2622

Oh man, those Bananas always crack me up. Keep up the good work.

And about the original post: To every man his own.

Powerbook G5

Mar 7, 2004, 09:20 PM

It's too hard not bringing up this point...

How doesn't an IT guy who is trained in computer technology unable to figure out something so simple as how to find "Help", how to drag a folder in the trash to delete it, how to switch the Finder to column view, or that command+x/c/v is exactly the same as ctrl+x/c/v? I have a 13 year old sister who could figure this stuff out on my PowerBook when I helped her with a school project and she never used a Mac before.

I understand that OS X is different than Windows, but seriously, you should take some time to actually learn how to use the OS before listing how it fails to be like Windows when every point brought up is either a non issue, the same as Windows, or arguably better than Windows. Either that, or just ask others for help on how to use OS X. When I got my new PowerBook running OS 10.2.7, it was the first time I ever really touched OS X and I figured out how to use it pretty thoroughly within that same weekend. As with most of the posts, all the information you needed to figure out all of your difficulties have now been addressed and answered. Perhaps now you are able to recommend a Mac now that you have some understanding of how and why certain things are different than with Windows.

jap4n

Mar 7, 2004, 09:34 PM

lol.. i can't believe i'm even replying to this thread.

would you also not recommend someone to use a windows PC because they are different to macs?

eRondeau

Mar 7, 2004, 09:39 PM

Windows is a make-work project for I.T. geeks. No wonder he's defending it -- think of the overtime!

My Mac just works. Everytime.

Bigheadache

Mar 7, 2004, 09:40 PM

that was an eye opener for me in my move to mac (not quite complete tho). loved it! i always liked the little self contained windows apps. single exe's that generate nothing more than a reg /ini file. now.... nothing but bloat

ps; you can move the app to another dir and still retain prefs unlike win progs.

I am about to do the switch from PC and this is actually one of my favourite aspects of Mac. On the PC when you install something it puts alot of DLL files in the Windows Systems directories. I have no idea who the hell came up with this hare brain idea, because not all of the uninstall programs clean this up properly and you can get alot of rubbish in the registry as well.

I think ChrisH3677 has been very very lucky if any of those uninstall programs have actually done the whole job for him. I find that most do between 50-100% of the job, even some of the better ones leave an empty directory behind.

Steradian

Mar 7, 2004, 10:01 PM

[QUOTE=eRondeau!
My Mac just works. Everytime.[/QUOTE]

You lucky dog, I wish mine did.

ChrisH3677

Mar 7, 2004, 10:02 PM

The learning curve going from Mac --->> Windows must be 10x worse!!

Yes! it must be almost terrifying!!

ChrisH3677

Mar 7, 2004, 10:11 PM

"So I've never recommended a Mac"

"I do tell all my peers they should be using Macs"

hmmm........

I've never recommended a Mac to a Joe Average - as much as I really want to.

But to my IT peers, I'm always telling them why Mac is better. I am the IT Manager where I work with 100 or so users (and was their IT support before that), and except for two critical apps (Records Management and our Finance, Property and Rating system), I could have and would have change us all to Macs.

I haven't read all the posts here yet, but I am hoping that someone will have said something like "Yeah, I know where you're coming from, but the switchers I've recommended Macs to have surprised me and had no probs. So don't let it worry ya!!"

kylos

Mar 7, 2004, 10:12 PM

...
...

He he, one more shot at responding to your post.
-context sensitive help. Mac does not have a direct comparison to this. However, it doesn't mean you can't get the information you need without going to help. In many applications, almost all buttons and such have help tags which show up as you hover over the element. In addition, if you press the command(apple) key while hovering over that element, you can bring up additional contextual info in the tag if provided. As well certain windows will have a question mark button(notably in Sys prefs) which will open a help topic for you concerning how to use that window. As I see it, windows gives you too much (often useless) information. This can be more a design flaw than a help at times. I feel apple gives you enough contextual help (and not too much) and leaves the rest up to an interface that suggests a purpose. Mac apps generally have a cleaner design than windows apps so you don't need to be told what everything does.
-application menu resolved
-application install/location why should a user know where applications are installed? and then how will he find them?
Because that's where he'll access them from. Because he knows where he's accessing them from. You don't have a start menu. You have an applications folder. OS X has many shortcuts built in to access your apps folder. In Jaguar, there was a button in the toolbar that would take you to your apps. In panther, check your sidebar. You also can go to the go menu in finder or use the key combination shortcut listed in that menu. Most important apps are already in the dock. And after all this, the user can create his own shortcuts by adding the apps folder to the dock as already mentioned or dragging just the most necessary apps to the dock. Or adding an apps button to the toolbar of finder windows. Or downloading a launcher app off the internet. Your apps are at your fingertips. The drawbacks of the start menu in windows is that it can contain too much info if you have a lot of apps, especially since for every app, you also see an uninstaller. There simply isn't any good(simple) way to view apps in windows.
-programs menu covered above
-my computer nav. most windows users prefer explorer. Mac isn't windows. When you use a mac, then you use the methods mac allows. It won't take long to get used to a different method and it does work just as well (if not better) then explorer. If mac and windows are the same, then why switch?
-no apply, cancel buttons in pref windows. for the most part, they're unnecessary. Changes take place instantly. Only networking prefs does not, and it has an apply button.
-different keyboard shortcuts again, if they're the same, then why switch. You're using a mac, not windows

not flaming or anything, just pointing out why these aren't problems with mac and why they shouldn't be portrayed as such.

kylos

Mar 7, 2004, 10:21 PM

Yes! it must be almost terrifying!!
It's not really that bad. It's like going from a well-appointed, organized, logical room into a messy, sloppy one. You'll still be able to find everything, it'll just take a little longer.

ChrisH3677

Mar 7, 2004, 10:23 PM

In general, context sensitive items are considered poor UI design, since the user must figure out what the context was to get back to a previous option or menu item. Sometimes it can be rather irritating trying to find out why a certain menu item is greyed out or is missing.

Also, welcome to the mac world. It'll take some time to get used to things, but I think you'll find it very rewarding.

Yeah - whenever I've done programming, my goal was to make it so user intuitive that any sort of help system wouldn't be necessary.

The thing that set this thread off was someone on another site asking how to do variable volume on a GB track. It's as easy as clicking a single arrow to reveal the track volume control. Unfortunately for that user it wasn't intuitive and maybe if there was context sensitive help, they may have figured it out themself.

I am certainly too Windows conditioned - I remember the first time using iDVD getting really frustrated coz I couldn't work out how to do something. Problem was, I was looking for the hard way! It turned out all I needed to do was drag and drop!

Hey, and thanks dude, it's guys like you who restore my faith in these forums. Altho I might have said something that appeared stupid to a lot of people, the reactions I got are what scare people off these forums because they think their question might be stupid.

michaelrjohnson

Mar 7, 2004, 10:48 PM

i personally dont' agree with many of your gripes because:
a) they're personal opinion
b) IMHO, if you truly know how to use a computer (and you do) you know what a funcionality does, and can therefore easily apply the methods to achieve said functionality. I can thrive in both "worlds" and don't really complain about either. basically, you have to be flexible.

most people here arent' trying to flame, they are just pointing out that most of the things you complained about are so minor, it wouldnt' make any difference to 99% of people.

we just agree to disagree

Vector

Mar 7, 2004, 11:55 PM

kuyu

Mar 8, 2004, 12:49 AM

I was pretty fluent in win 98 when I switched to Jag. Now I use panther exclusively. My brother put XP on his pc, and I try to use it, but the learning curve is pretty steep. Most stuff is in a new place, and I can't keep it all straight. The options go on ad naseum, often without purpose. And the wizards...... the only problem the wizard ever solved for me was demonstrating the wizards inability to solve any problems. It's like some never ending survey with no tangible point that offers "I don't know" as an option.

while XP is supposed to help novices, all it suceeds in doing is allowing novices to navigate an endless parade of complicated questions, about which they know nothing, all the while punching the "I am a tech idiot" button repeatedly.

If you're a fan of surveys, bubble-sheets, polls, lease forms, loan applications, or pushing buttons for fun, then XP is for you. Otherwise, use OSX, linux, or the local libraries strangled version of windoesn't.

2 cents.

Horrortaxi

Mar 8, 2004, 02:07 AM

Narrow minded defensiveness is one of the biggest obstacles to getting the Mac better accepted - and always has been.
Uh huh. And this is a perfect example of that.

ChrisH3677

Mar 8, 2004, 02:21 AM

I stand by all the points i highlighted. They are the things that have made the switch harder for me. Yes they are all personal opinion and experience. But when I'm recommending Macs or not, that's all I have to go on. Until now. :D

It is good to hear other switchers disagreeing with me as that does give me more confidence to put up Macs as an option for people. But even if I do, I will still say "These are the best computers, but there are some things you may find takes a bit longer to get used to - which I did, altho others tell me they didn't."

I apologize for tone of the original post - I should have edited it a bit more.
I should have titled it "Has any other switchers struggled with..." It's been a tough weekend. I shouldn't have been posting at all. But to those who responded constructively - thanks, it helped.

PS Despite using and supporting Windows for 8 years, I do find it a chore to use when I have to, and sometimes just stare at it trying to remember how to do things! :D I do have VPC for those corporate apps mentioned in another post but I am using it less and less. I also like watching my fellow IT managers gag on their coffee when I tell them I can do everything on my Mac I need to do to manage the Windows network.
They just don't get it. They don't understand how the support calls would go from "My computers doing stupid things" to "How do i..."

Savage Henry

Mar 8, 2004, 02:23 AM

I'd say that the learning curve was steeper than you'd expect if you were switching. But it all depends on what you want to get out of it and how much of a Windows mindset you had to start. Everybody I know who switched seemed to do okay, but then I'm not saying that I know everybody who switched, so I expect some people found the transition a litle awkward.

Mav451

Mar 8, 2004, 02:29 AM

I don't know bout you, but I believe that those from the other side will do this too -- jump to conclusions prematurely. Take a look at MacZealots article from last month:

http://maczealots.com/articles/dark-side/

They are guilty of making overtly early, ignorant assumptions in the same way that XP users can and will make assumptions of OSX. (e.g. MacZealots resorting to the "Fisher Price" stereotype and complaining about the GUI when they fully know that themes have been available since the release of XP).

This is main reason I try not to comment on OSX at all until, perhaps, I can use it for at least several more months. Even then, my experience with it will be limited, as I still fully rely on my self-built AMD box in my dorm. The experience as a whole is different if I was completely relying on a G5 for months (and talk about a perspective change too). I obviously do not have the money for this kind of investment, so until then, i only have my lab experiences to base off of, and with that in mind, i would not dare to write an article like MacZealots did.

Even after playing with the G5's at my university for nearly a month, I don't think I can really, truthfully, and knowledgeably make a legitimate argument for/against the OS. I can certainly use my opinions as a basis for "initial XP to OSX" experience per-say, but not as an end-all, encompassing argument.

*I believe osnews.com also did this a while ago...and with a horrible outcry from the Mac community if you took a look at the comments :p

*by the way, if you saw my first post a month ago bout trying a G5, I was trying to be as open-minded as i could be...

Fukui

Mar 8, 2004, 02:54 AM

The thing that set this thread off was someone on another site asking how to do variable volume on a GB track. It's as easy as clicking a single arrow to reveal the track volume control. Unfortunately for that user it wasn't intuitive and maybe if there was context sensitive help, they may have figured it out themself.
Yea, that is one very BAD thing that was inherited from OS9, that stupid arrow!! An arrow means "point to something", not a "menu is hidden underneath." I actually prefer the "plus" and "minus" signs on windows (scary I know!), but I wish apple would change the stupid arrows thing. AFAIK NeXTSTEP didn't have them did they?

Oh well. The best we can do is make our suggestions to apple....

TBR

Mar 8, 2004, 04:08 AM

It's not really that bad. It's like going from a well-appointed, organized, logical room into a messy, sloppy one. You'll still be able to find everything, it'll just take a little longer.

Exactly what I was going to say.

takao

Mar 8, 2004, 05:36 AM

well i am on the dark side at the moment i can't say if some operating system is better than an other... for university i have to use linux (every programmed programm _has_ to run on red hat 9.0) and when i saw how _messy_ that is ... i decided not using linux as my desktop for another few years..but i want to get rid of those windows for daily business because it just annoyes me with it security issues

my conclusion:
-mac os x: no experience
-windows: messed up, sometimes cunfusing but acceptable GUI design, installing programms easy, uninstalling sometimes real pain...
-linux: sometimes really clean but most of the time configuration extreme confusing and messed up _a lot_, different GUI design from programm to programm, installing programms: sometimes works flawless, sometimes it takes brute force ( '-f' anyone ?) and endless hours if somethings doesn't work like in the 'readme': you're screwed (missing libaries etc.), uninstalling: same here, ,very good OS for developing,server etc.

walkingmac

Mar 8, 2004, 06:33 AM

"Yeah, I know where you're coming from, but the switchers I've recommended Macs to have surprised me and had no probs. So don't let it worry ya!!" ;)

I was raised on PC back with PCIndex and DOS prompt. I went strait from that to 95. Soon after that I watched a graphic artist friend of mine on a mac (OS 9) and I was blown away at the simplicity and ease of use of the OS that became an avid user. OS X has been like a party every time I use it (including the random drunk that shows up and gets things a little screwy). Now when I sit in front of a M$ machine I am literally putting at my hair looking for relief. Yes, there are differences between the OS's, but I welcome those because they have made me so much more productive.

I have recommended macs to several people, many of which have made the change. And those first few weeks, ya, I get phone calls with 'how do I do this?' and 'where do I need to go to do this?'. After a little bit of time, they get the hang of it (forgetting the 'bad mindsets' of how a computer should act that was ingrained my their former windoz companions). I have never gotten a 'man, this is the worst thing I have ever done.' or 'what did you get me into!'

so.... "Yeah, I know where you're coming from, but the switchers I've recommended Macs to have surprised me and had no probs. So don't let it worry ya!!"

Funkatation

Mar 8, 2004, 07:09 AM

My father is an IT directory for a small (350 person) company, he is slowly transitioning macs into some of his departments. If you only have 2 applications that don't run natively in Mac OS X, you have it far better than he does. Windows NT/2000/2003 Server with the built in Terminal Server solves his problem of running windows apps without the overhead of running VPC. Microsoft released Remote Desktop Connection for Mac OS X, so you can run PC Apps off your server (which he was doing with his PC's before hand, easier to update the 1 install, more secure, etc). This may be something you want to think about as my father did (mainly was sick of removing all the viruses time and time again).

Applespider

Mar 8, 2004, 07:21 AM

Sorry about your tough weekend - hope the next one is better

I can see where you're coming from. I've switched recently mainly after playing on a friend's Tibook and having privacy concerns over MS wanting to know if I change anything major with my system. I was running Win98 SE but the general housekeeping it took to keep it running was a pain. To be fair, I never had a virus or worm but I was pretty good at keeping virus software/firewall stuff up to date. And I could make it do what I wanted it to do without pulling my hair out tho' I wasn't doing hugely complicated things.

The majority of things in OSX I had no problems with. Yes, I'm still paranoid about haivng to Quit things rather that just close things since on the PC that would've slowed things down too much. It's odd that some apps quit when you shut the window (iPhoto) and some don't (iTunes).

Some things are intuitive - once you know what you're looking for. Took me ages to figure out how to add a new account in Mail, then I found the plus sign in another app and suddenly...doh, it became obvious. Likewise drag and drop, I wanted to save a picture on a website, tried control-clicking, nada. Ah yes, just pick it up and drop in on the desktop (pity that the springloaded folders won't work and let me drop it to its final position tho).

I recommended my sister to get a Mac. She didn't use Windows much. She's having a great time experimenting and I've only had calls saying 'guess what I just managed to do!' as opposed to my mother running an old PC who calls with problems.

I believe that if you're new to computers or weren't comfortable using Windows, then you'll switch to a Mac and everything will seem intuitive. If you were 'good' at Windows, then you might find it slightly trickier to think 'intuitively' initially. Once you learn the basics tho, then apps are a lot more standardised on Mac and life becomes easier.

iMan

Mar 8, 2004, 07:25 AM

Apple and MS do nick ideas from each other (MS more so). Apple though tends to take something and make it better - eg the command-tab between applications. MS has had that for years but never given it any extra functionality, such as Apple have done - esp in Panther. (Correct me if I''m wrong - OS9 didn't have it did it?)

OS 9 also features cmd + tab for browsing apps. Panther edition is of course taken a step further.

And you are right about the two being inspired by each other :)

An avid mac-user I always recommend Mac's to my friends. Some even have converted - and are quite happy about it. Most of my friends that know of computers are rather scekptical though - I suspect because now they do have an intimate knowledge of the technology, with a mac they suddenly don't. Yes, you would be more productive when familiar with it. Yes, it is a great OS for newbees. And yes, it is a learning curve (or maybe an unlearning curve :) for Windows-people. A lot of things are beeing done very different (actually also applies for OS9 -> OSX users).

There are tons of tricks (like keeping the app folder in the dock - or even just a "favourite app" folder. btw ctrl click to make the list appear instantly) to enhance the use of OSX.3. And when you learn to master the beast you will feel so much in control of your computer as you never did before!

I can recommend David Pogues excellent "Missing Manual - OS X Panter ed" (O'Reilly) to everyone - beginner to pro, switcher to OS9 upgrader. It covers a lot of neat stuff on how the best OS in the world works.

Good luck on you quest!

ChrisH3677

Mar 8, 2004, 07:36 AM

I have never gotten a 'man, this is the worst thing I have ever done.' or 'what did you get me into!'

Thanks WM - that's what i needed to hear! I'd never thought about that side of it.

ChrisH3677

Mar 8, 2004, 07:42 AM

Windows NT/2000/2003 Server with the built in Terminal Server solves his problem of running windows apps without the overhead of running VPC. Microsoft released Remote Desktop Connection for Mac OS X, so you can run PC Apps off your server (which he was doing with his PC's before hand, easier to update the 1 install, more secure, etc). This may be something you want to think about as my father did (mainly was sick of removing all the viruses time and time again).

bwa hahahahaha! This is something I've been scheming for the last few months. I've told my network admin guy he has to get TS running and the corporate systems running on it. I've told him of my ulterior motive (coz he sits beside me). My first hope is once i get it fully working on my Powerbook, is to replace the Art Gallery PCs; then Reception; then we'll gauge the reaction and the level of success and take it from there.

it's good to hear someone else is successfully doing it. thanks

ChrisH3677

Mar 8, 2004, 07:46 AM

(or maybe an unlearning curve ) for Windows-people.

Yes iMan! That's probably the real problem! As I said in another post - even six months on, i keep looking for the hard way to do things!

j_maddison

Mar 8, 2004, 08:00 AM

ChrisH3677

i too had problems when swtichng. i made the switch to an imac running os9 about four or five years ago now. i hated it to begin with. i literally wanted to throw the imac out of the window for the first month, but then a strange thing happend. i tried going back to a windows machine and hated that more! lol. i quickly switched to osx when it came out and then wanted to go back to os9, and then decided i coudlnt use os9 after using osx.

The point of this little confusing story is that my problem was more to do with making the mistake of thinking the new os should have the same things commands and feel as the old os. once i got used to my mac my opinion changed.

four to five years on and i loath using my windows machine in work and cant waite to get home and use my mac. The only annoying thing i find now is that i cant use my webcam with windows users who dont use yahoo messenger. once third party app developers such as msn messenger, aim and icq sort their act out, i'll be a happy bunnny.

jay

plasticparadox

Mar 8, 2004, 08:01 AM

iMan

Mar 8, 2004, 08:03 AM

Yes iMan! That's probably the real problem! As I said in another post - even six months on, i keep looking for the hard way to do things!

Well, I am rather pragmatic about platforms :) Sure I prefer Mac, and recommend it, but if people like Windows (or whatever) let them play - important thing is anyway for people to get their stuff done.

I really recommend the book for your "unlearning". Also includes specifics as to what/why/how things are different as you read.

ChrisH3677

Mar 8, 2004, 08:12 AM

Sorry about your tough weekend - hope the next one is better

...

I believe that if you're new to computers or weren't comfortable using Windows, then you'll switch to a Mac and everything will seem intuitive. If you were 'good' at Windows, then you might find it slightly trickier to think 'intuitively' initially. Once you learn the basics tho, then apps are a lot more standardised on Mac and life becomes easier.

Thanks dude. :) I'm not used to people dying - i got mad at the world and as I said, shouldn't have posted! (I still have these small struggles with OSX tho - but usually i woulda phrased it much better)

I really, really love the Mac coz I just use it. I don't have to maintain it besides the occasional reboot and repair permissions (tho both have been greatly reduced since Panther). But I sure gave out the wrong impression! I do need to trust people I could recommend Macs to that they too will prefer using a Mac.

When you think about it, if these are my biggest problems with Macs... sheesh!! They must be damn good!! lol. I think I'll start using those as a selling feature! It's like clutching at straws to find something bad to say!! :D

Like, if I look back at my list and take the thing I think is the worst (probably I'd say "no context sensitive help") and then say to someone considering a Mac "Oh the worst thing you'll find is there's no context sensitive help" they're gunna look at me stupid and say "That's the worst?!!!!! Hello, McFly!!" :D

The thing I've been absolutely ingrained with over many years of using and supporting Windows is thinking laterally - usually for problem solving, but sometimes even just using it.

I used to have a PC support business and the slogan on my card said: "It's not that people are computer illiterate, it's that computers are people illiterate."

But what you and others have really brought home is I gotta lose that thinking when it comes to Mac - coz they are significantly more people literate. And if those things I raised are really the worst probs I've found with Macs, then slap slap!! I need to wake up!

It's just sooo inground tho!! Thanks for all you guys support. I will try harder to recommend Macs and have faith in the OS to convert the person.

thanks :D

I better stop before I flame myself too much more and get myself banned!! :D

walkingmac

Mar 8, 2004, 08:19 AM

thats the spirit.... lol ....look at your latest post against your original. quite the turn around!

YES... a successful swtich :D

ChrisH3677

Mar 8, 2004, 08:26 AM

You were just bellyaching for the sake of having your voice heard.

that's prob true Plastic, but read my last post. I'm sorry i couldn't post it before you did. We musta been typing away at the same time. :D

But at the end of the day, although I started off on the wrong foot and screwed up the initial approach, i got the outcome I wanted. i.e. reassurance to recommend Macs.

agreenster

Mar 8, 2004, 09:06 AM

weird thread. I actually learned some stuff though. Never knew about the Applications folder in the dock trick....neato.

whooleytoo

Mar 8, 2004, 10:33 AM

These critcisms of OSX are valid, though I don't think they can be called flaws; rather just differences from Windows that might confuse someone accustomed to the Microsoft approach.

I believe in OS9, when a developer adds a contextual menu, the Help item used to be always added by default. However, most developers never 'hooked up' this menu item (adding help can be a surprisingly time-consuming part of software development), meaning help was a disabled menu item in almost every pop-menu in the OS and applications.

Apple do have a "1 page manual" approach to software development, if it needs a bigger manual, they've made the product too complex. While it works well in most cases, sometimes Apple can take it too far.

As for installers, again it's a partly matter of choice and custom. But also many Windows apps NEED an installer because they need to make changes to the registry, and install files throughout the Windows and System32 directories. Mac apps tend to be more self-contained and robust (i.e. less affected by being relocated).

Generally, Mac users tend to customise their systems a lot: they put their apps where they want, they put the dock and other windows where they want etc. Installer-free applications help us do that.

The 'menu bar at top of screen' is good for one reason, it's much faster to hit because you can't overshoot it. Faster means convenience means easier. (Conversely, the fact you can only resize windows by a tiny square in the bottom right is a hinderance in OSX, it takes too much finicky mouse twiddling to hit and drag the stretch widget).

Don't get me started on the keyboard shortcuts though! Apple standardised them across the OS and all applications first. This is a bit like hearing someone say about Lord of the Rings: "Wow, they made a book out of the movie??" :D

Oh, and about Garageband, if you think that's too complex, you should try downloading the Reason Demo. Even with a help file, that's pretty tough!!!

ChrisH3677

Mar 8, 2004, 05:05 PM

weird thread. I actually learned some stuff though. Never knew about the Applications folder in the dock trick....neato.

It would be good if Apple added this as a option in the Dock preferences (i.e. "tick to show the Applications folder in the Dock").

PS And I learned a lot too... (he says embarrassedly)

ChrisH3677

Mar 8, 2004, 05:09 PM

Oh, and about Garageband, if you think that's too complex, you should try downloading the Reason Demo. Even with a help file, that's pretty tough!!!

yeah - i've seen the screenshots of Reason and I ran screaming from the room! :D A lot of those Music apps are terrifying to look at (and use) - which is one of the reasons GB has been so successful - coz even I can use it!! :D

bousozoku

Mar 8, 2004, 05:41 PM

I've never recommended a Mac to a Joe Average - as much as I really want to.

But to my IT peers, I'm always telling them why Mac is better. I am the IT Manager where I work with 100 or so users (and was their IT support before that), and except for two critical apps (Records Management and our Finance, Property and Rating system), I could have and would have change us all to Macs.

I haven't read all the posts here yet, but I am hoping that someone will have said something like "Yeah, I know where you're coming from, but the switchers I've recommended Macs to have surprised me and had no probs. So don't let it worry ya!!"

Sure, I understand your position. I've had several managers in IT who weren't technically-oriented and had trouble using the keyboard. You shouldn't be ashamed--it's a common occurrence.

I think you're very brave, coming here to explain your difficulties and preconceptions about Mac OS X. Perhaps, if you stop fighting it and start learning, you'll be fine. That won't help the poor help text, but you'll be a bit closer to being self sufficient.

bryanc

Mar 8, 2004, 06:42 PM

Yes iMan! That's probably the real problem! As I said in another post - even six months on, i keep looking for the hard way to do things!

This is certainly consistent with my experience and those of the people I've helped switch.

I've used every flavour of windows since 3.0, and was pretty well trained to look for the hardest way of doing something. This made my switch to the mac somewhat less easy than it might otherwise have been.

I remember trying to burn my first CD, and spending a long time looking for the CD-burning-application, trying to guess how to invoke the CD-creation-wizzard, then I finally decided that the program I needed might get launched automagically when I inserted a blank CD...when the empty CD appeared on my desktop, I thought "could it be so easy as dragging the files I want to the CD?" Since then, I've had less trouble...whenever I'm not sure how to do something, I ask myself, "what would be the simplest, most elegant, obvious way of doing this" and that's usually it.

I still get a kick out of the PC users who struggle with the macs around here...I keep having to remind them that they don't have to re-boot the computer every time they're done with it.

Cheers

coolsoldier

Mar 8, 2004, 07:31 PM

It would be good if Apple added this as a option in the Dock preferences (i.e. "tick to show the Applications folder in the Dock").

This seems unnecessary and confusing -- what would happen if you, say, checked the box and then dragged the Applications folder out of the dock. One procedure that works the same for everything usually ends up being easier to use then ten different ones.

That said, it would be nice if Apple put the Applications folder in the dock by default.

coolsoldier

Mar 8, 2004, 08:06 PM

This reminds me of a website (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/fog0000000249.html) I found a couple years ago about UI design:

One day Pete's friend Gena asks him for some computer help. Now, Gena has a Macintosh iBook, because she loves the translucent boxes. When Pete sits down and tries to use the Macintosh, he quickly gets frustrated. "I hate these things," he says. He is, finally, able to help Gena, but he's grumpy and unhappy. "The Macintosh has such a clunky user interface."

Clunky? What's he talking about? Everybody knows that the Macintosh has an elegant user interface, right? The very paradigm of ease-of-use?

...

On the Macintosh, when you want to move a window, you can grab any edge with the mouse and move it. On Windows, you must grab the title bar. If you try to grab an edge, the window will be reshaped. When Pete was helping Gena, he tried to widen a window by dragging the right edge. Frustratingly, the whole window moved, rather than resizing as he expected.

...

Pete has also learned to use Alt+F4 to close windows. On the Mac, this actually changes the volume. At one point, Pete wanted to click on the Internet Explorer icon on the desktop, which was partially covered by another window.* So he hit Alt+F4 to close the window and immediately double-clicked where the icon would have been. The Alt+F4 raised the volume on the computer and didn't close the window, so his double click actually hit the Help button in the toolbar on the window which he wanted closed anyway, which immediately started bringing up a help window, so now, he's got two windows open which he has to close.

Another small frustration. But, boy, does it add up. At the end of the day, Pete is grumpy and angry. When he tries to control things, they don't respond. The space bar and the Alt+F4 key "don't work" -- for all intents and purposes, it's as if those keys were broken. The window disobeys him when he tries to make it wider, playing a little prank where it just moves over instead of widening. Bad window.

... "I like my computer," Pete says. "I have it all set up so that it works exactly the way I like it. But these Macs are clunky and hard to use. It's an exercise in frustration. If Apple had been working on MacOS all these years instead of messing around with Newtons, their operating system wouldn't be such a mess."

Right, Pete. We know better. His feelings come despite the fact that the Macintosh really is quite easy to use -- for Mac users.

ingenious

Mar 8, 2004, 09:05 PM

- In Windows, you run an install program and at the end have a link in your programs menu. In OSX some programs will install in the Application folder and others you have to open a compressed file and you have to manually drag and drop its contents to the Applications folder. Then in both case, you navigate to the Apps folder to run it. If you run it often use the "Keep in dock" option. Yes you can also drag the apps folder to the Dock for quicker access. Some Windows installers ask too many questions, but in the main, the Windows approach is much tidier and more user friendly.
Windows is not by any means more tidy than Mac OS X. Even in the panther install, it was much easier than windows. When my XP drive corrupted, I had to spend several days trying to get windows to reinstall and / or try and fix the drive. And I'm no windows newbie- I've been on windows for eight+ years- since windows 95 and 3.1- long enough to have memory leaks, program and file corruption, messy installers, havoc-wreaking installers, and malicious Windows "Updates" Mac OS X organizes like I think. I like to have everything in one spot, and if I don't use a program that often I dont put it on the dock. you can put aliases on the desktop or folders on the dock. By any mean, Mac OS X is tider and easier than even Windows XP.

ingenious

Mar 8, 2004, 09:09 PM

The only annoying thing i find now is that i cant use my webcam with windows users who dont use yahoo messenger. once third party app developers such as msn messenger, aim and icq sort their act out, i'll be a happy bunnny.
jay

Have you ever heard of iChat 2.1? It's "new" from apple and it can webcam with AOL, .Mac, and Rendezvous users. It can do audio with all three, and can text AOL, .Mac, iChat 1, 2, and 2.1.

windowsblowsass

Mar 8, 2004, 09:24 PM

[i]I was stunned to find OSX had no context sensitive help. In most Windows programs, you would be able to right-click on most any screen element and get help on that item.

For some reason, Apple must arrogantly assume their software is too good for that. Sorry Apple. it aint. In OSX it's trial and error i.e. "I wonder what happens if I click this thingy here...."

i didnt notice when i went from nine to panther that help balloons aqre no longer available maybe because of the constant "god why howdid i turn theese on again WHY WONT YOU DIE" complaints caused by them

Powerbook G5

Mar 8, 2004, 09:27 PM

Not only that, but the sound effects made by them are enough to drive anyone nuts.

hulugu

Mar 8, 2004, 09:56 PM

I didn't know you could drag the Applications folder to the Dock - see, everyone learns from discussion...The learning curve going from Mac --->> Windows must be 10x worse!!

The move from Mac --->> Windows was frickin' brutal. Whilst transitioning from OS9 to OSX I also had to learn Win98 and man I spent most of the time shaking my head and wondering how I could get the damned thing to do what I wanted. But, after moving to Win2k I realized that each OS has its advantages. Frankly, I believe that Windows primary advantage is its shear ubiquity, the shear numbers of it and the shear constant use so that everyone has become inured to it.
I think personally that OSX is a great OS, but it's not perfect, it could be snappier, there are options that are missing, but it's an OS that manages to be useful for new users, UNIX geeks, AV guys, Powerusers all at the same time and that's pretty impressive.
So ChrisH3677, I understand the frustration, I was ready to strap my PC to a trebuchet and hurl that #&$#(! at the horizon or take it out to a field and beat it ala' Office Space, but ultimately I learned how to use the system to its advantages. Take your time, ask questions of other users—here on this forum for example, and really play with the system. Call Apple, trawl around the Support forums, go bother someone at an Apple store (or its equivalent).

switchingGeek

Mar 8, 2004, 09:57 PM

Problem was, I was looking for the hard way! It turned out all I needed to do was drag and drop!

I switched in Aug 2003, got the Ipod+printer+powerbook.

I faced EXACTLY this problem! I've been using Linux exclusively for the past 4 years. Windows and DOS before that. I was usually searching for the really hard way - usually the Windows equivalent. The funniest was the wireless setup.

While registering (when I opened it for the first time), I gave my wireless network name, and WEP password. After booting up, I spent a good 5 to 10 mins trying to find out how to setup and install the airport extreme built-in card :D. Of course, this was because I had used a Mac only once or twice before this, for a few minutes max.

Frustrated, I opened up the Safari. Got the shock of my life when I found I wan online!! Try this on a Win XP machine, and you'll know what I'm talking about.

After that solid mindF**k, I decided I would be more careful henceforth. I read up on the help, and found the help itself to be amazingly useful, and to the point. Remember I'm coming from a recent Linux background ;-).

I've leart a hell of a lot since then, thanks to Macrumors forums and MacOSXHints and the various authors of freeware and shareware programs. Props to ragingmenace.com's Alex Harper (some one get him a job, so he can continue working on SideTrack!!) primarily. Fink helped a LOT. GIMP, Latex, XFig etc. are necessary tools for my trade.

IMHO, Chris's main problem might have been coming from a straigh Win/Dos environment. Since I had a Linux/Solaris/Windows/DOS experience, I was able to quite easily adapt to the (yet another) key convention/binding.

Nowadays, I'm quite impatient when working on a Windows machine. The Terminal is my friend ;-).