If i install tiger...

[carbonfiber]

Im just making sure that if i insttall tiger it wont destroy all my files and whatnot. All my documents etc.. will be left alone, right? Cus im a n00b at this

[slightly]

I'm sorry - you're a n00b, but you were at the WWDC developers' conference?

[applekid]

I hope your files can erased. You're a nitwit, and I am 90% sure you got that through piracy or a "friend" :rolleyes: .

[jimsowden]

He doens't know enough to have gotten it himself. I think that he payed for the copy he has.

[applekid]

A "n00b" would not pay to see WWDC '04 or pay someone on eBay because, well, they're a newbie. What would they know about the Mac if they just got started? I left that 10% chance for him to somehow come across a legitimate copy by chance, but I seriously doubt it.

Not to mention this is his only post ever.

Much of this Tiger forum is filled with some hints to pirating. Many of you should be ashamed of yourselves. I'm not here to start a flamewar (because my battles are to be fought in the Mac Gaming section :) ), but the mods should keep a closer eye on this subforum. It's quite disappointing and not reassuring about the Mac community at all. I'm ashamed I am even associated with some of you Mac users.

[The Reaper]

oh, get off your high horse. Surely, you can understand why people might not want to wait the better part of a year for Tiger - they want it now. But, when the time comes, when Tiger is released, these people will probably purchase the final version (rather than be stuck on an incomplete beta). If they had a means to do so now, they probably would buy the final version (if it was available). So what if they are using a prerelease if they will probably buy it anyway? No one is losing out from this type of activity. So yes, piracy is piracy, but please don't "black and white" this situation, because not all piracy is a bad thing.

[Dr. Dastardly]

Is it really piracy if the thing was free in the first place.? :rolleyes:

[Duff-Man]

Is it really piracy if the thing was free in the first place.? :rolleyes:Duff-Man says...how much it cost has nothing to do with it - it is all about the terms specified in the agreement for pre-release (or any) software. Even freeware you get from Version Tracker has a license agreement (for the most part)....oh yeah!

[applekid]

There's a thing called patience. Use it sometime.

This is black and white:

Free? The Developers paid (partially) to get their DVD. This is a Developer Release. Not a Consumer Release. We don't need consumers to mix in the crowd when the Developers have bugs to report and SDKs to use.

Not all piracy is bad? You must be kidding. Give me a situation where turning to piracy is morally right. Once a pirate, always a pirate...

And you definitely can't be sure that everybody that pirated this PR will pirate the full version.

[kugino]

There's a thing called patience. Use it sometime.

This is black and white:

Free? The Developers paid (partially) to get their DVD. This is a Developer Release. Not a Consumer Release. We don't need consumers to mix in the crowd when the Developers have bugs to report and SDKs to use.

Not all piracy is bad? You must be kidding. Give me a situation where turning to piracy is morally right. Once a pirate, always a pirate...

And you definitely can't be sure that everybody that pirated this PR will pirate the full version.

yes, pirating is wrong...and yes, i've done it. specifically, i got a hold of the panther preview release, just because i was so darn interested. but, i bought the full version on "night of the panther" and i bought the family pack for all my machines. so your last statement is most likely false. there are a lot of people who just want to play with a new toy and when the public release comes out, they will buy it. condoning pirating? no...i'm just making it clear that it doesn't follow from pirating this developer's release that one will pirate the public release. stop generalizing like that...

[Duff-Man]

yes, pirating is wrong...and yes, i've done it. specifically, i got a hold of the panther preview release, just because i was so darn interested. but, i bought the full version on "night of the panther" and i bought the family pack for all my machines. so your last statement is most likely false. there are a lot of people who just want to play with a new toy and when the public release comes out, they will buy it. condoning pirating? no...i'm just making it clear that it doesn't follow from pirating this developer's release that one will pirate the public release. stop generalizing like that...Duff-Man says...yes, there are those that will go out and buy the full version....but that should not be used as an "excuse" or justification for pirating the pre-release like most people do....oh yeah!

[FredAkbar]

About the piracy issue: while I agree that it's questionable in any case to download things like the Tiger preview without Apple's consent, we can't just assume the person is a general pirate, or that they won't pay for it. I got Panther 7B21 illegally but I sure as hell support Apple and couldn't wait for my paid copy of Panther to arrive in October.

About the issue about which this thread was actually started (funny how not a single person actually answered this guy's question): I would definitely not install Tiger on the same drive that you're currently using for Panther (or whatever OS you have). Unless you have an external drive or have your HD partitioned, I would not recommend installing Tiger at all. Technically, one of the installation options should automatically copy over your home folder (Archive & Install is the safest, as it doesn't actually delete anything, just makes your old OS unbootable and sticks it in a folder), but you never know what could happen with pre-release software.

[Anarchy99]

i herd that tiger was not able to be pirated it would either give kernel panics or a missing driver thing i thought the only people with it were us lucky souls who went to wwdc

[applekid]

I did not generalize. I only said you can't be sure. :)

[nuclearwinter]

This is black and white:

Not all piracy is bad? You must be kidding. Give me a situation where turning to piracy is morally right. Once a pirate, always a pirate...

You miss the philosophical point. Just because something isn't good doesn't put it immediately on the side of bad. Good and evil may be analogous to white and black, but that doesn't mean that gray cannot exist. Neutrality is a viable option, espeicially in the instance of this n00b. Perhaps he did get Tiger through piracy, but in the end, he probably will buy the full release instead of some half finished beta. If he has it now, what HARM does it do? I think this would be a case of neutral piracy... the n00b will probably harm his system before he harms anyone else!

[FredAkbar]

Anarchy99: hmm, I never heard that. The only way for that to be possible would be for the install CD to have some copy-protected piece of data on it that installs into the computer during installation and is necessary to run Tiger.

nuclearwinter: good point. carbonfiber, based on your post, you're more likely to screw up your own computer than hurt anything else. No offense meant, I've certainly been there :). All we're saying is that if you don't know what you're doing, you can really mess up your computer, and possibly lose files. Though it should be noted that you did ask us about it first, which was a good idea (assuming you don't mind getting flamed :D).

[stoid]

i herd that tiger was not able to be pirated it would either give kernel panics or a missing driver thing i thought the only people with it were us lucky souls who went to wwdc

I've got a copy of Tiger Beta from questionable sources :o and if I try to start up off of the DVD I get a kernel panic. I'm too busy to try and get it to work now, but that MAY be true.

[applekid]

You miss the philosophical point. Just because something isn't good doesn't put it immediately on the side of bad. Good and evil may be analogous to white and black, but that doesn't mean that gray cannot exist. Neutrality is a viable option, espeicially in the instance of this n00b. Perhaps he did get Tiger through piracy, but in the end, he probably will buy the full release instead of some half finished beta. If he has it now, what HARM does it do? I think this would be a case of neutral piracy... the n00b will probably harm his system before he harms anyone else!

Harm? In the long term, it's very possible Apple closes its doors to developers or go as far as to install spyware or use other methods. Apple has all right to protect its products. They can and probably will do what is has to in order to protect themselves.

It'll be a shame the day Apple has to resort to those tactics because of a few idiots just didn't have the patience to wait for the next OS X release.

Not that I'm saying Apple will do that soon, but we'll know who to blame when developers have to get past many obstacles just to preview the next OS X.

Not all that neutral to me.

You still haven't proven privacy can be a good thing, whether you agree with the above or not.

[zakee00]

i really dont agree with most of you, who cares if he has a piece of pre-release beta pos software? he is GOING to buy the real thing, the beta dosnt have even 25% of the features of the final. plus, it expires after 80days anyway. the point is: i wouldnt even bother installing it, it will just cause you trouble. i doubt it will even be usable as an os. its just to preview a few of the features in the final.
just my $.02

[Cruzn15]

The only reason Apple wouldn't want the average consumer trying out alphas of Tiger is because the average idiot (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=79360) would try it out, run into some bugs yet to be ironed out or try out some of the features when not everything is in place, and developers haven't been able to take advantage of the OS yet, and say that it's not worth their money. The idiot won't buy it because of the alpha.

For the educated consumer who is able to snag a copy, play around with some of the new features, and still commit to buying it in the future, I say, "More power to you."

[rendezvouscp]

Well, I think that piracy can be for the good. Some people out there would like to be developers, but just can't for numerous reasons. But, in the case of Dashboard, people with pirated copies can (wow, I can't think of the word I want to say) "help out" the rest of the mac community. So, the amount of gadgets will probably grow, and some of those from pirated copies. Wouldn't Jobs love to say that there are already over 1,000 available gadgets at Tiger's official release?
–Chase

[iJon]

i would not mess with tiger unless you have a spare hard drive. on a g5 i feel its faster than panther, but it is still incomplete and i don't boot up in it, lot of things are still missing. if you want to install you will probably not loose all your data, but it is possible. you have to decide if your data is worth seeing calendars and clocks appear magically on your desktop with a keystroke.

if you have an external drive you dont even need to burn the dvd, just open the osinstall package and go from there. enjoy it but you are probably going to get nothing but b***ing from everyone since i doubt you are a developer.

iJon

[technocoy]

and you are just little angels that never do anything wrong ever, right? never EVER copied a videotape, or NEVER speed on the interstate, or NEVER EVER EVER do anything wrong. a wrong is a wrong,so shut the hell up. don't come in here and chastize someone when you are just as liable for things that i am SURE you have done. You don't even know that he didn't get it from WWDC (yes you assume, because of the context of his post, but you DON'T know for sure) and if he is new to the platform, maybe it's good that he check it out so that he actually gets that magic feeling that all of us mac users have had for a while. besides, the developers version doesn't even run great and has only 75% of the features working correctly. it's not like its something he will benefit from. i got the jaguar WWDC copy last year and then proceded to not only buy a copy of it for my work machine, but also bought a Brand new powerbook to run it on at home. Get off the high and mighty CRAP. there are far worse things he could be stealing... or killing... or raping. damn.

I agree that arn should not allow piracy talk on the board but this is not piracy talk, it's installation talk.

sorry for the rant, but i hate hipocrisy.

[Duff-Man]

Duff-Man says...."could be doing worse things" - worst justification ever ......oh yeah!

[iJon]

I agree that arn should not allow piracy talk on the board but this is not piracy talk, it's installation talk.
i agree, but i also use some commong reasoning. only people who should have tiger are developers. if you are to develop software im sure you are aware of the risks that early versions of software can impose, especially a system OS. i mean we have no proof he isnt a developer, but come one, we know he pirated it.

iJon

[technocoy]

i'm not justifying anything, simply stating that of all the things that he could have stolen, he gets berated for something that isn't even complete software and could be compared to using shareware, by people that given the cd were in there hands would likely install it themselves just to see the new os but like i said, wrong is wrong and the hipocrisy on the board is what set me off. because i know that everyone on this board has done something wrong on about the same level as copying a pre-release incomplete piece of software.

[iJon]

i wrong is wrong and the hipocrisy on the board is what set me off. because i know that everyone on this board has done something wrong on about the same level as copying a pre-release incomplete piece of software.
yeah, but most of us are smart enough not to talk about it ;).

iJOn

[applekid]

and you are just little angels that never do anything wrong ever... <snip>

Relax, guy. :p

Now, where did I say I never did anything wrong in my life?

I was complaining about how some Mac users justify pirating Tiger in any way they can. Even a simple PR release just HAS to pirated? Really? Got no patience? Can't wait till next year? Is it really going to kill you not try Tiger before it's released? Your infatuation is getting in the way of your common sense.

And comparing crimes to other crimes is completely opinionated, not facts.

People keep claiming there's no harm intended, but well, there is. You broke an agreement and the distributor broke an agreement. Apple sure won't want to trust those people. Is it that hard to honor an agreement? If I sell you software, I trust that you will not cut my sales by giving it away to your friends. I've witnessed many times developers getting screwed by some idiot that just had to pirate and distribute a program; developers I personally know. All of you that pirate Tiger are in the same ranks as those losers, as far as I'm concerned.

[zakee00]

i think some of us here work for apple :P

[m.r.m.]

general question. i don't have any release of tiger or anything like that.

in the windows world many consider it better to format and install a new os instead of installing it over the old one (simply updating). i've seen benchmarks showing the same machine performing better after a clean install of xp (previously measured by updating from win 98se to xp without format).
how is this with osx? is it the same or is it better to format first before installing the os?

[technocoy]

my point has been missed and i guess i can't articulate it properly.

Just to point it out, he never tried to justify his theft, he just asked how to install tiger.

um and in case you haven't been around this board long, no people here usually CAN'T wait to see new products. they are FANATICS about apple.

And my infactuation isn't getting in the way of anything, i haven't tried tiger yet, nor do i plan to until it's release. Panther was another story, as no, i couldn't wait to see expose work.

and i guess it's not YOUR OPINION that:

a: he stole his copy of tiger
b: that if he did steal his copy of tiger that it was wrong

I am also not saying that he did nothing wrong, but ASSUMING he did steal it, no he isn't cutting into sales for apple because the product isn't on sale. It's also not a proper OS yet, so if people want to mass produce it and run a half complete, crashing OS on their computer, more power to them, but i think they would opt to buy the real one when it goes on sale, or steal the full version as well, in which case, MY OPINION is that they are then asses and deserve to be sought out and prosecuted by apple, but now for downloading a "preview" just out of curiousity to check it out.

yes they are breaking an agreement by downloading it, i agree. they have technically broken the law. i think thats your point, so agreed, you win. :-)

PEACE OUT!
technocoy

[applekid]

yes they are breaking an agreement by downloading it, i agree. they have technically broken the law. i think thats your point, so agreed, you win. :-)

Good way to end the whole argument ;)

But, the reasoning for pirating Tiger at all still aren't good enough to say it's more important than the agreement. Even though it's not on sale, it's the principles of it that matter.

I'll end it with that.

[ingenious]

oh, get off your high horse. Surely, you can understand why people might not want to wait the better part of a year for Tiger - they want it now. But, when the time comes, when Tiger is released, these people will probably purchase the final version (rather than be stuck on an incomplete beta). If they had a means to do so now, they probably would buy the final version (if it was available). So what if they are using a prerelease if they will probably buy it anyway? No one is losing out from this type of activity. So yes, piracy is piracy, but please don't "black and white" this situation, because not all piracy is a bad thing.

Here we go again. I'll black and white it. Yes, all piracy is wrong. Am I completely innocent? No. Do I try to be? Yes. It is wrong for them to copy, buy, or "borrow" Tiger from an attendee, just plain because it's stealing. Shallowly it may appear that the attendees got it free, but they payed for a ticket right?!? So, it's obviously not free. You've all heard the rest before.

[cb911]

to answer your original question carbonfiber, i think it'd be best to install Tiger on a completely differnet partition. you could try VolumeWorks, or there's some app out there that lets you create a new partition, leaving current ones intact.

if you try and install over Panther (which would be a stupid thing to do BTW) i think it would wipe all of your files, not that i've tried that, i just put it on a seperate partition.

and for those of you having kernel panics when trying to install from the DVD... you can just open the 'install Tiger' package and look for a package called 'OSinstall.pkg' or something like that. but then you'll have to run it from a working install and then you can only install it to another volume. hope that helps some of you. :)

[Mr. G4]

Is it really piracy if the thing was free in the first place.? :rolleyes:

Not quite.
You have to purchase the WWDC ticket to get Tiger, or you have to be member of developer Select or Premium to get it for free and the membership is at least $500 for Select and the ticket to WWDC was at least $1300.

As to loose or not data when installing Tiger, like someone said it's better to have a spare partition and install Tiger by itself, if you don't you can always use volumework to split your hard drive without to have to loose your data.

[applekid]

Not quite.
You have to purchase the WWDC ticket to get Tiger, or you have to be member of developer Select or Premium to get it for free and the membership is at least $500 for Select and the ticket to WWDC was at least $1300.

As to loose or not data when installing Tiger, like someone said it's better to have a spare partition and install Tiger by itself, if you don't you can always use volumework to split your hard drive without to have to loose your data.

Breaking the agreement makes it piracy.

[Mr. G4]

Breaking the agreement makes it piracy.

I never said otherwise.
I replied to the guy who that if it's free it's not piracy.

[applekid]

I never said otherwise.
I replied to the guy who that if it's free it's not piracy.

I read your whole post incorrectly. Sorry.

I guess that's the end of this thread.

[danrufus]

All apple has to do is put a digital siganture on each of the Tiger releases, and associate that number, with an attendee to WWDC.

When the software is "leaked" or "borrowed" it can be traced back to the original "owner" of the software, and that will be his/hers last WWDC.

This is what Hollywood does with movies, and people have lost there jobs/ contracts.

DONE.

[m4rc]

All apple has to do is put a digital siganture on each of the Tiger releases, and associate that number, with an attendee to WWDC.

When the software is "leaked" or "borrowed" it can be traced back to the original "owner" of the software, and that will be his/hers last WWDC.

This is what Hollywood does with movies, and people have lost there jobs/ contracts.

DONE.

How do we know they don't? Just because they haven't said they do, does not mean they don't! Sure, they haven't done anything about it so far, no lawsuits or allegations, but maybe they are slowly quietly building up a list of the people who constantly put the software 'out there' for others to obtain. Maybe they don't see this instance as such a big deal and are waiting for an instance that IS such a big deal? As it would be that easy, and Apple are far from stupid, maybe they know they can do this and just don't see that it's worth doing? Maybe they don't see some pre-pre-release half finished copy getting out to lots of people as as much as an issue as some of the people on here do? After all, if they were as worried by it as some of the people on here it would not take much to tighten the controls and security, after all they do a pretty good job of keeping product releases a secret - sure stuff gets out but rarely do we know 'for sure'.

[davecuse]

Where the pre-release copy was gotten aside, the question remains, why would you want to install an early early beta version of an OS on your daily machine?? I mean there are bound to be some big problems, it's only natural with the release date being next year.

It's one thing if you're a developer with a couple of test machines laying around that you can format and not worry about. Word of advice, there's a reason that Apple hasn't released this to the public. You could very easily corrupt your hard drive and lose all your data. Wait till it's actually released, you'll be much happier with the end result.

[cb911]

Where the pre-release copy was gotten aside, the question remains, why would you want to install an early early beta version of an OS on your daily machine?? I mean there are bound to be some big problems, it's only natural with the release date being next year.

exactly. and because this is the case i don't understand why there are so many people getting all worried about some kid just getting a copy to mess around with? it's not like these people are going to try and sell it on eBay as 'Tiger - GM' or something. :rolleyes: if anything, they'll only hurt themselves through mean of data loss or some other technical problem.

[davecuse]

I do software support and it makes me cringe when people tell me they are running Win XP SP2 Release Candidate, and it's generally n00bs who have no idea how to fix a problem that it breaks. I've tested SP2 extensively, and it's horribly buggy... that's why they keep pushing off the release date!

"Beta testers" who don't know how to troubleshoot problems is one of my biggest pet peeves.

[cb911]

"Beta testers" who don't know how to troubleshoot problems is one of my biggest pet peeves.

LOL :D what kind of a Beta tester couldn't troubleshoot? that's a bit useless... he he. :) or are you talking about people who just fancy themselves as Beta testers? kind of 'pseudo Beta testers'?

[davecuse]

LOL :D what kind of a Beta tester couldn't troubleshoot? that's a bit useless... he he. :) or are you talking about people who just fancy themselves as Beta testers? kind of 'pseudo Beta testers'?

You got the nail on the head

[Mr. G4]

How do we know they don't? Just because they haven't said they do, does not mean they don't! Sure, they haven't done anything about it so far, no lawsuits or allegations, but maybe they are slowly quietly building up a list of the people who constantly put the software 'out there' for others to obtain. Maybe they don't see this instance as such a big deal and are waiting for an instance that IS such a big deal? As it would be that easy, and Apple are far from stupid, maybe they know they can do this and just don't see that it's worth doing? Maybe they don't see some pre-pre-release half finished copy getting out to lots of people as as much as an issue as some of the people on here do? After all, if they were as worried by it as some of the people on here it would not take much to tighten the controls and security, after all they do a pretty good job of keeping product releases a secret - sure stuff gets out but rarely do we know 'for sure'.

Come on don't be too paranoid.
After the keynote people rushed out to the registration area to get their copy of Tiger. The staff gave a copy to anyone that have a "virgin" name tag holder and when you get your copy of Tiger they just punched a hole in the name tag holder.

[sockeatingdryer]

You miss the philosophical point. Just because something isn't good doesn't put it immediately on the side of bad. Good and evil may be analogous to white and black, but that doesn't mean that gray cannot exist. Neutrality is a viable option, espeicially in the instance of this n00b. Perhaps he did get Tiger through piracy, but in the end, he probably will buy the full release instead of some half finished beta. If he has it now, what HARM does it do? I think this would be a case of neutral piracy... the n00b will probably harm his system before he harms anyone else!

I can tell you what harm it does... it makes one less person the developers can lord it over on. Because, you know, they are such gods.

BTW, what's up with all these snarky kids popping up all over this forum system all of a sudden? They're a real pain in the...

[maradong]

yes, pirating is wrong...and yes, i've done it. specifically, i got a hold of the panther preview release, just because i was so darn interested. but, i bought the full version on "night of the panther" and i bought the family pack for all my machines.
so did I, though i only have one machine :)

[Mord]

Im just making sure that if i insttall tiger it wont destroy all my files and whatnot. All my documents etc.. will be left alone, right? Cus im a n00b at this

yes they will be left allone but there are not guarrenteesback up everthing and give it a 2 week test if it's stable keep it if it's not just stay with panther, 10.4 id stable on some macs and total hell on others.

the guy asked a question yes he sounds a bit noobish but who cares just awnser the question.

i'm running 10.4 and yes it's not a legit copy but what harm is it doing i dont care that it's breaking the law i'll pay for the full release of 10.4. it's not takeing money from anyone i could understand your point for argueing against pirateing comercial programs but this is beta software.

it's against the law? i bet that 99% of the people on this board have broken some computer law by copying files or somthing like that the reallity is that with software like this there is no victim.

[toughboy]

oh, get off your high horse. Surely, you can understand why people might not want to wait the better part of a year for Tiger - they want it now. But, when the time comes, when Tiger is released, these people will probably purchase the final version (rather than be stuck on an incomplete beta). If they had a means to do so now, they probably would buy the final version (if it was available). So what if they are using a prerelease if they will probably buy it anyway? No one is losing out from this type of activity. So yes, piracy is piracy, but please don't "black and white" this situation, because not all piracy is a bad thing.

I totally agree..

Apple earns from the final version sales of its software products, beta pirating just feeds our hunger of curiosity and gives NO HARM to Apple which means that it is nothing bad at all..

Me myself would not dare to wait a moment to install Tiger on my PB, if I could be totally sure that it'll be no harm to my software or hardware..

[netytan]

Not all piracy is bad? You must be kidding. Give me a situation where turning to piracy is morally right. Once a pirate, always a pirate...

Not true! I used to get a lot of pireted stuff from friends and alike but i havnt touched anything like that since switching to Mac. Besides, find be one person who can honestly say that he has never listed to a pireted CD etc. There hard to come buy, and those who say they havnt are just plain liers!

People, get of your moral high horse and and accept that it happens. And pretty much noone is inocent!

[Anarchy99]

find be one person who can honestly say that he has never listed to a pireted CD etc. There hard to come buy, and those who say they havnt are just plain liers!

People, get of your moral high horse and and accept that it happens. And pretty much noone is inocent!what about canadians music is legal there

[stevehaslip]

Not true! I used to get a lot of pireted stuff from friends and alike but i havnt touched anything like that since switching to Mac. Besides, find be one person who can honestly say that he has never listed to a pireted CD etc. There hard to come buy, and those who say they havnt are just plain liers!

People, get of your moral high horse and and accept that it happens. And pretty much noone is inocent!

it still doesn't make it right, also people can change and do the right thing.

[Mr. G4]

All of you that pirate Tiger are in the same ranks as those losers, as far as I'm concerned.

Sure distributing Tiger will break your confidential agreement with Apple, however, IMHO, it is not equal to pirating a software (Gold Release). To me the more people got their hands on Tiger and try it out will be going out and buy it as soon as it got release. Remember even though Tiger is great, it is still a pre-release and there are a lots of bugs.

Just to remind you, Apple was happily giving away the Beta version of OSX for everyone to beta test for them and hook all of them to switch when the Gold Release got out.