Qucik poll - Favorite Office 2004 thing

[OldManJimbo]

What's your favorite thing about Office 2004?

[Horrortaxi]

The uninstaller.

I checked out the test drive and put the results (http://www.horrortaxi.net/images/word2004.jpg) on my website. Here's the summary:
I got my hot little hands on a copy of Microsoft Office 2004. You can click the link to see a screenshot of my review and the Word program. If that's too much for you then here's the summary: Office 2004 adds no new useful features, but it does add some gimicky bloat. There is absolutely no reason to upgrade from Office x and few reasons that you'd need to use Microsoft's product in the first place. If you do need it then it's not bad software.

[alywa]

Really cool... I'm out of school, but for my wife it will be really cool when we ditch her POS Dell and get her an iBook.

Plus, the new transitions on Powerpoint are nice... too bad they don't work on the presentation PCs at my work!!! I guess I'll get to show them off when above mentioned iBook is purchased.

-alywa

[OldManJimbo]

Thanks HorrorTaxi - This is the type of input I'm after. For my money Office X does the trick - lots of file sharing with PC enabled folks - and I was holding off the 2004 switch because I wasn't sure it was worth the hassle.

I appreciate your candor -

[Finiksa]

It doesn't constantly stop responding and unexpectedly quit like v.X, other than that no improvements.

[MrSugar]

with office 2004 I have heard you can remote control windows computers... that is a nice feature for us IT guys that like macs but work in a windows world.

[blodwyn]

I use the project center a lot, and find it helps me keep better track of the various balls I have to keep juggling

[stevietheb]

Gotta agree with HorrorTaxi. Perhaps if I used Entourage I'd find some purpose for it. Glad I got it from my University for $8 instead of full price.

[Abstract]

Well the only useful feature from that package may be a version of Excel that doesn't crash (doesn't happen heaps, but annoying nonetheless), and the ability to name files with more than 32 characters. This last feature is worth $50 to $100 CDN to me, but I'm not spending $199 Canadian on the student version if nothing else seems valuable to me.

[JOD8FY]

I like the Presenter View in PowerPoint. It's a nice touch.

JOD8FY

P.S. - If you have Office X, however, I do not see any reason to upgrade.

[mms]

Agree with HorrorTaxi. Adds no significent new features, and crashes just as much as with Office v.X for me. If you use Entourage the fully integrated Project Center might be nice but it's not that great. I don't get the point of Notebook view at all, since notetaking went perfectly fine for me in TextEdit or just a plain Word document. The whole notebook page view is silly.

[ZaniCWB]

If you're planning to use some other languages (like brazilian portuguese, in my case) I highly recommend this upgrade. It's a well spent money for sure.

[quackattack]

haven't used it yet, but i'm hoping when i get back to school notetaking in word will be worthwhile. i like the idea of being able to record lecture audio while i take notes.

[musicpyrite]

Honestly, there is no reason to go from Office X to Office 2004.

It would be like going from Windows 2000 to Windows XP; just more eye-candy and bloat.

So I'd have to agree with Horrortaxi, the uninstaller.

[Horrortaxi]

I appreciate your candor -
That's me, Candortaxi.

[Sneeper]

with office 2004 I have heard you can remote control windows computers... that is a nice feature for us IT guys that like macs but work in a windows world.


You can do that for free with VNC. There are free VNC servers and cllients for almost any OS. That's what we use at work.

[kant]

i'm hoping when i get back to school notetaking in word will be worthwhile. i like the idea of being able to record lecture audio while i take notes.

That is the single feature that makes me want to buy it. If it works as advertised, it ought to be a god-send for classes. I can see it being most helpful in seminar classes. I've got lots of notes that are only a couple of phrases or sentencea scrawled under the date with no idea of what the context was.

[BornAgainMac]

Compatibility Report. I like that it tells me what additional Mac features will not show up with all the different versions on both platforms. And that it preserves the additional features so I don't lose them when they are edited on an old version of Office. Compatibility is the main reason I use Microsoft Office.

Project Center would be a close 2nd best feature for me. I wish Access was available for the Mac. It's nice having all your reports, forms, code, views, and data neatly packed into a single file and be able to use it as a front-end for SQL Server and Oracle and the ability to create nice data driven Word and Excel documents from Access.

The Excel graphics are so much better in Excel 2004.

[Horrortaxi]

That is the single feature that makes me want to buy it. If it works as advertised, it ought to be a god-send for classes.
I made it through college (3.5 undergrad GPA) without recording lectures and without even having a computer. Even now that I do take notes on a laptop I'm not sure I see the use in recording lectures (and don't get me started on sound recording in a word processor--people who don't know what we mean by "bloatware", this is a prime example). To me it would just be a distraction--and I never would review the recordings anyway. I barely review notes except to refresh my memory--and it's my memory that gets me through classes.

However, different people acquire and process information in different ways so what works for me might not work for you. So whatever makes you successful, that's what you should do. Just don't get suckered into spending a lot of money for a gimmick.

[kant]

I made it through college (3.5 undergrad GPA) without recording lectures and without even having a computer.

Well, goody for you.

From your signature you're not exactly unbiased when it comes to M$ products, so you'll forgive me if I discount your opinions on them.

[Timelessblur]

got to remeber Horrortaxi hate MS so got to take down his ranting a few pegs.

I never looked at office 04. * i use Office 03 on a PC and it very close to office 04.

From what I read there is no real point to upgrade to it from office X. Same as there is no real point to go from office XP to office 03.

I have used office XP and I moved up to office 03. (Got them both for free though my school). I never really used Access or frount page but as for word, exceal and outlook.... There is noughting really new in them to make it worth moving up. The icons look better but that is about it. If you dont have MS office yet and you want it or need the power of it I say get office 04. There is a lot of stuff for school that it will make you life easier just to have it and it is quite a bit more powerful that appleworks

[sahnert]

Compatibility Report. ... Compatibility is the main reason I use Microsoft Office. ... Project Center would be a close 2nd best feature for me.

Agree. I think project center is great for keeping things together across the different office apps. It will automatically file emails with chosen subjects which is really nice in terms of low maintenance organization. I haven't used compatibility report much yet, but that was one of the reasons i chose office 2004. I go to school on an all Windows campus and some of the classes have handouts and lecture notes available online, it's nice to not have to worry about formatting issues. Open it up and it "just works". Isn't that why most of us choose macs anyhow?

[AppleMatt]

I wish Access was available for the Mac. It's nice having all your reports, forms, code, views, and data neatly packed into a single file and be able to use it as a front-end for SQL Server and Oracle and the ability to create nice data driven Word and Excel documents from Access.

The Excel graphics are so much better in Excel 2004.

Here here, I miss Access sorely. I've no use for it anymore, but when I maintain projects that I created years ago I really appreciate how integrated and customisable it is, and the VBA debugger is actually OK.
Hadn't noticed about the Excel graphics, I'll fire it up.

Barefeats benchmarked Office 2004 to be much slower than Office v.X. It's on the "quick tests" page.

AppleMatt

[Fukui]

Here here, I miss Access sorely. I've no use for it anymore, but when I maintain projects that I created years ago I really appreciate how integrated and customisable it is, and the VBA debugger is actually OK.
Hadn't noticed about the Excel graphics, I'll fire it up.

Barefeats benchmarked Office 2004 to be much slower than Office v.X. It's on the "quick tests" page.

AppleMatt
Yes, give us Access, Publisher, Project; yea yea thier pretty crappy in some ways (publisher), but for compatbility, there are no alternatives.

[apple_iBoy]

What's your favorite thing about Office 2004?

Well I probably could have gotten away with using Office 2004 as an undergrad, but at this point I found that I just couldn't make do without using Endnotes citation software -- which worked fine with Office v.X, but is irrefutably broken with Office 2004. The answer I got from Endnotes -- "compatibility will be added in a future software version." Great. So for now I'm back using Office X, and to be honest, I'm not feeling like I'm missing anything.

I am annoyed that even in this day and age, they still haven't ironed out the bugs you run into when you try to position a graphic element in a particular place in your text in a Word document. I routinely have had that problem in both Office X AND Office 2004. I don't think you should have to own InDesign or Quark to be able to paste a picture or graph on the page and not have it jump everyone in the document except where you want it.

Speaking of jumping, I'm getting ready to jump the MS Word ship and start writing my documents in some flavor of TeX. I'm still getting used to it, but it definitely already feels like a much more professional alternative.

[Horrortaxi]

I'll never understand how someone can get flamed on a Mac board for saying bad things about Microsoft.

You can discount my opinion if it doesn't make sense to you, but don't do it as a kneejerk reaction. All I'm telling anybody is to use the right tool for the job and not to fall in love with a gimmick they might never use. I also tell amateurs not to bother with Adobe Photoshop or ProTools because it's way excessive (and expensive) for their needs. I value my money and I imagine you value yours.

And it's not like I decided one day that I don't like Microsoft and decided to start finding fault with their products. Years of suffering with bad products (combined with some unsavory business practices) lead me to the conclusion that it's not a company I want to support. I like to remind people that they have choices.

[Horrortaxi]

thier pretty crappy in some ways (publisher), but for compatbility, there are no alternatives.
Yes, and this is exactly what is wrong with Microsoft. Now you don't even need to read the links in my sig...unless you don't realize that this is a big problem.

Okay, I'm done. Please think before you flame.

[wadetemp]

You can do that for free with VNC. There are free VNC servers and cllients for almost any OS. That's what we use at work.

While the Remote Desktop client is included with Office 2004, it's free off Microsoft's site:

http://www.microsoft.com/mac/downloads.aspx?pid=download&location=/mac/DOWNLOAD/MISC/RDC.xml&secid=80&ssid=9&flgnosysreq=True

If you're trying to connect remotely to a (non Windows 95/98) Windows box from Windows or Mac OS, don't do it with VNC... Remote Desktop performs MUCH better, and has a lot more functionality.

If you need to cross other platforms VNC's a decent choice.

[BornAgainMac]

MS Publisher. I am probably the only one that likes that program. It was one of those few programs that made me a switcher from my Amiga 2000 to Windows 3.1 back in the old days. I have Publisher 2000 and it has templates and preset color schemes that you can change so easily. I have the educational version of InDesign CS and it has zero templates and no one click color schemes. The audience for that product will either spend hundreds of dollars for pro-templates or build their own. I am not in that field, I just want to have nice output that is beyond what MS-Word can give me. I can't even import my Publisher templates over to InDesign so I am spending some time learning InDesign and perhaps in a few years I can produce the same kind of quality that I could with Publisher.

The next version of Office for the Mac needs to have Publisher and Access and even Frontpage. And I would also like to see Photo Draw for the Mac. I loved that graphics design program. Too bad Microsoft discontinued it on the Windows platform. It was a cross between Photoshop and Picture It. Somewhere between those two extremes.

[MikeLaRiviere]

I'm actually quite a fan of Office 2004. Basically, it fixed the things with Office v.X that I didn't like. Disclaimer: I paid $5 for Office 2004 from my school.

First off, the programs boot up very quickly, possibly faster than their PC counterparts. Second, Word is faster overall - again, on par with its PC counterpart - as are the other programs. The reason I state these two pieces of information immediately and explicitly is because so many people have stated the opposite. The fact is, though, that I am very impressed with both the startup time and the responsiveness/speed/efficiency of each application. For comparison, I'm using my impressions of Office 97, 2000, XP (2002), and 2003 on PCs of .266 PII, .900 Duron, .933 PIII, 2.0 Celeron, 2.4 P4, and 3.0 P4 Prescott HT GHz speed. Fact is, with a program like office, there comes a point when no more speed can be gained. I'd say the startup time of Office XP and 2003 reaches its peak on the 2.0 Celeron and remains the same all the way up. Again, these are just my impressions.

Office v.X I used on an iBook G4 12" 800 MHz. I wasn't terribly impressed; there were strange font spacing issues, Quartz anti aliasing wasn't enabled on early versions, and the program was noticeably unresponsive/slow/inefficient. However, it got the job done, albeit slower than its PC counterparts.

Office 2004 I used on the iBook and now on a PowerBook G4 12" 1.33 GHz. On the iBook, I found Office 2004 an overall better implementation of the program, but given that I used an unlicensed and cracked version, I found the program was not amazing. The same holds true when I used it on the PowerBook. However, after uninstalling that installation and installing the licensed CD version from my school, I found a great performance gain. I'm not sure why I would notice a difference to be honest, but I do.

The main reason you would want to upgrade to Office 2004 is if you wish to resolve the annoyances you experienced with Office v.X. There are some, but not many, collaboration enhancements; these, however, are nowhere near their PC counterparts (read: if you're in an Exchange Server environment, don't expect to have the collaboration bells-and-whistles your Office XP and 2003 colleagues enjoy). The notebook view in Word is interesting; having beta tested OneNote on the PC, I was excited to see a Mac iteration of the program. Though not as robust as OneNote, I expect to use the notebook view quite a bit at school. In conclusion, if you have to spend over $100 to upgrade to Office 2004, you might want to consider just how annoyed with Office v.X you are. If you are annoyed to the extent that you will pay $150-300, by all means upgrade; you'll be glad you did. However, if you want to upgrade just because you like to have the latest version of everything (like me), you may want to wait for the next version. If you can get Office 2004 from a school for $0-20, absolutely upgrade.

Mike LaRiviere


Addendum

As much as everyone (hyperbole) on these forums hates Microsoft, step back a moment and consider all the Microsoft products you've bought/"shared"/used. All the ones I've used were pretty good. We're talking Word 6.0 for Mac in the early 90's, Office 97, 2000, XP, and 2003; Publisher, OneNote, and some other Microsoft innovations; MS-DOS (yes, I know Microsoft did not invent this OS), Windows 3.1, 95, 98, ME (preinstalled on a pre-XP Dell), 2000, XP Home, XP Pro, XP Pro SP2 Beta; PocketPC. I realize and agree with the fact that OS X 10.3 runs better than Windows XP SP2, but that doesn't mean Microsoft is a horrible company out to steal my money. Don't want to pay for a Microsoft product because you don't like the company? Don't pay for one then. You can always "share" a copy of Office with peer-to-peer, or you can use OpenOffice or Star Office. Don't like Windows? Don't use it then. Use Mac or some other Unix flavor. Microsoft's not a bad company in my opinion, though; they make good products that are used everywhere. Blue screen of death? Happened to me sometimes in ME, rarely in XP, but I've had many kernel panics in OS X 10.3. So yes, given the choice, I would and do use a Mac. But I also use Windows occasionally, but I don't feel the need to criticize Microsoft at every opportunity just because I've found a better product. Bill Gates has never wronged me, nor has Microsoft. Steve Jobs is not my buddy, he's just a more charismatic CEO than Gates. If you've switched, that's fine, but there's no need to insult Microsoft and Intel at every opportunity.

[Horrortaxi]

MikeLaRiviere, I have to wonder where your attention has been focused for the last 15 years. I'd be interested in reading your list of Microsoft's innovations--apart from the talking paper clip in Office. I really don't see them creating anything new--ever.

You paid for a bug fix. It was only $5 on your case, but you said the main benefit of buying Office 2004 was that it fixed what was wrong with Office x. You paid more money to make it work the way it should have always worked--doesn't that make you angry?

Being anti-Microsoft is one of those issues that people either get or don't get. The people on my side don't understand how everybody doesn't see these problems while the people on the other side think we're all crazy--but everybody is positive they're right. I won't agree to disagree though. I'll just ask you to remember what I say about Microsoft and one day it'll click and you'll say "oh, now I see what he meant".

[MikeLaRiviere]

MikeLaRiviere, I have to wonder where your attention has been focused for the last 15 years. I'd be interested in reading your list of Microsoft's innovations--apart from the talking paper clip in Office. I really don't see them creating anything new--ever.

You paid for a bug fix. It was only $5 on your case, but you said the main benefit of buying Office 2004 was that it fixed what was wrong with Office x. You paid more money to make it work the way it should have always worked--doesn't that make you angry?

Being anti-Microsoft is one of those issues that people either get or don't get. The people on my side don't understand how everybody doesn't see these problems while the people on the other side think we're all crazy--but everybody is positive they're right. I won't agree to disagree though. I'll just ask you to remember what I say about Microsoft and one day it'll click and you'll say "oh, now I see what he meant".

No, one day it will not click. I understand what you are saying, and I disagree with it. I think a $5 bug fix is better than a $130 bug fix - two of them so far, another one coming up - for the broken OS X 10.0/10.1. Because of this initial, obviously unfinished release, Apple has no reputation in the enterprise. Feel free to tell me how your friend's business uses Macs with no problem. Try putting a Mac on an Exchange network in a corporate setting, though, and you'll see that it isn't able to do what the Windows machines can.

No innovation from Microsoft? Collaboration features, for one, Microsoft pioneered. Show me one other office suite that has the collaboration features that Office 2003 does, or even that Office 2000 has. Just because you don't use the features doesn't mean they're not important to others. And consider your choice of the word innovation when you refer to the fact that Apple put a GUI on Unix, whereas Microsoft invented the NT kernel. Microsoft perfected the office suite; Apple bought out ClarisWorks. You remember ClarisWorks, don't you? It was that works program that had less functionality and word-processing power than a TI-83 calculator.

Yes, OS X is the best operating system in my opinion. But no, Windows XP is not bad, and I'd hate to see how one would fare in the corporate world without Microsoft's gift to the Mac platform, Office.

Mike LaRiviere

[Fukui]

And consider your choice of the word innovation when you refer to the fact that Apple put a GUI on Unix, whereas Microsoft invented the NT kernel.
Sorry, but IBM did a great deal of work on the NT Kernel AFAIK. MS got a free pass to multithreading land with that one.

P.S: Put windows machine on an Appletalk network at see what kind of compatibilty problems you get! This is why Linux is important, not because its "free" but because the interface is open. Open code, open protocols, open standards, open formats, that anyone can interoperate with. The rise of Linux (if it ever happens) can only help Apple, whereas prorietery stuff will always have them chassing MS's tail to be compatible, which is why MS uses Active Directory instead of other open stuff. If everything was open, Apple could concentrate on adding features more, instead of banging thier head against the wall debuging Mail, trying to find why out why won't talk to Exchange etc.

[Horrortaxi]

You know damn well I can't show you another office suite with the features you described. I'm hard pressed to show you another office suite at all. Why do you think that is?

I'm still not seeing innovation. Microsoft didn't write Office, they bought the programs it contains and have added features over the years in order to force users to upgrade. That's not innovation.

What's innovative about Windows NT? I say they cobbled together an OS. Show me the innovation.

[CubaTBird]

http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/innovation/yourpotential/main.html


what ms wants u to think. :o

[iNetwork]

You all have forgotten the most important feature to me: integration with an Exchange Server. I now have a Mac on my desktop at work because of this feature alone. I would have never been able to have a mac if I couldn't connect to the exchange server. I know my company uses exchange servers to coordinate meetings, calandars and our secretaries administer their boss's inbox and calendar. This is the most important feature to me. I love 2004.

If the mac community wants to hold any significant market share, then businesses need to be catered to. Dell has more computer market share than apple. Apple also needs to continue to integrate further (this is just one step) with PC's. It's a PC world, if you can't beat them, then join them.

[Horrortaxi]

what ms wants u to think. :o
Oh my. That's a feel-good movie that has nothing to do with innovation. They're dancing around the subject with a slick presentation.

[kant]

Being anti-Microsoft is one of those issues that people either get or don't get.

No. Being fanatically anti-microsoft is one of those things.

Many people don't like MS but are aware that Redmond didn't get to be as big as it is by forcing people at gunpoint to buy their products. Many people buy MS because they like the products.

You're as bad as the /. linux fanatics. Luckily this site isn't as inundated with extreme Mac people as /. is with the linux flavor.

Oh, and by the way: your "can't understand why people get flamed on a Mac board for saying bad things about MS"? Again, it's not the people who say bad things about MS; it's the ones who rant. In my earlier post, I gave the specific reason why I would consider Office 2004. Instead of replying to that specific reason with a thoughtful or informed comment on the specific capability of the software, you chose to insult my memory and, by implication, my intelligence. I'm glad that your attitude seems to be in the minority on this board.

[Timelessblur]

As so this thread as turned into a flaming war bettween the MS haters and the people who worship MS (Which are just as bad as people who worship Apple)

[kant]

As so this thread as turned into a flaming war bettween the MS haters and the people who worship MS

Oh, I don't worship MS. I think they write some buggy software and have some seriously dodgy business practices. But I'm not saying that they're the anti-christ of software companies either. They produce some products that are useful, some that are useless, some that are good, and more that suck.

But I can't see being fanatic about it and I damn sure don't see flaming people simply because they use MS products. As a matter of fact, considering the title of the thread, I can't see why a MS hater would post in this thread unless they were simply wanting to be argumentive.

[Horrortaxi]

You're half right about Microsoft not forcing people at gunpoint to buy their products. They do force you at gunpoint, but the gun is in their left hand and most people are too distracted by the puppet on the right hand to notice.

The Slashdot crowd are the brightest of the bright, so I can see why you'd make that comparison.

Kant, you need thicker skin or something. My memory got me through school and that has nothing to do with you. No reason to feel insulted.

As for questioning my reasoning for posting in the first place, please read my first post in this thread. Then read the original poster's message thanking me and saying that's just the kind of thing he was looking for.

[broken_keyboard]

The news reader in Entourage is quite good.

[MikeLaRiviere]

Horror, I really must think that you don't work in an environment that requires Microsoft Office. I'm not sure what kind of innovation you're looking for in a company, only after you find which, you will buy the company's product. Whether or not Microsoft innovated Office, Word 2004 works much better than Word 6.0. Maybe you don't use Office often; most of the business world does. I am curious as to what your job is that allows you to separate yourself so much from Microsoft. If you work in an enterprise, you're using Microsoft. Period. If you're a student, a home user, you're using Microsoft. Take Microsoft out of the picture, and these users have nothing to use.

So yes, what job is it that allows you never to use Microsoft products? I'm not really sure what you mean by "innovated" either. How about Photoshop CS vs. 7.0? UT2k4 vs. UT2k3? OS X 10.3 vs. 10.2? Get off your high horse and realize that all companies are alike, Microsoft no better nor worse than the rest of them.

Mike LaRiviere

[BornAgainMac]

I was surprised to see a flame war in a favorite Office 2004 thing discussion.

[Horrortaxi]

Dude, you don't have to tell me you don't know what "innovation" means. It's obvious. Here's the definition, so now you'll know: 1: a creation (a new device or process) resulting from study and experimentation [syn: invention] 2: the creation of something in the mind [syn: invention, excogitation, conception, design] 3: the act of starting something for the first time; introducing something new; "she looked forward to her initiation as an adult"; "the foundation of a new scientific society"; "he regards the fork as a modern introduction" [syn: initiation, founding, foundation, institution, origination, creation, introduction, instauration]

And it's not lack of innovation that keeps me from using Microsoft products, it's Microsoft themselves. Here, read your own post because you made my point for me:

If you work in an enterprise, you're using Microsoft. Period. If you're a student, a home user, you're using Microsoft. Take Microsoft out of the picture, and these users have nothing to use.

That is exactly the problem! Where's the choice? Do you know when I'll use a Microsoft product? When I have to. When there's no other choice. When I am all out of alternatives. When there is just no other way. As you've pointed out, no matter what you do it doesn't take long for your choices to run out and leave you with Microsoft as your only option. That makes me angry. It makes me feel owned.

And it's not like Microsoft got to where they are by earning their success. That they got to own us by such underhanded measures makes it even worse.

I'm not going to tell you what my wonderful job is for a couple reasons. First, it's ridiculously easy to find out. You're 2 mouse clicks away from knowing right now. Second, looking around and finding out the answer yourself is a good habit to get into. You obviously need to develop this skill.

[CubaTBird]

whats wrong with a ms alternative... i don't see the big deal. maybe some people just had a bad experience and forgot to save that big ol' word doc and b/c of that it changed their lives, and from now on they hate ms for what was i consider their fault. look, ms might not make the securest products in the world... BUT.. they make a prodcut (os) that lets u try out other products that other people/company's made that could be just as great or even better than you thought... I think sometimes people forget that this is just software, it gets to the point where people start forming opinions about other people based on what computer they use n stuff, which is just serioulsy messed up...a'la i think what we are experiecning is a sort of civil rights movement in the computer world... with apple users being the segregated ones... you see it all over the web, not being able to into certain site, or site for "mac" users only.. its out there... so i know, nd u do to... people just don't wanna admit it or really see that its all there...

[MikeLaRiviere]

I'm not going to tell you what my wonderful job is for a couple reasons. First, it's ridiculously easy to find out. You're 2 mouse clicks away from knowing right now. Second, looking around and finding out the answer yourself is a good habit to get into. You obviously need to develop this skill.

I had no intention of stalking you, i.e., reading your bio. Seeing as you challenged me to, I did. It looks like you are a teacher. While I have enormous respect for most of the teachers I've had and for the profession in general, I must utter three words: case in point.

You work in a school, which is not a business setting. Allow me to make a few points below:

1. No Exchange Server - a school has neither the need nor the funding for an Exchange Server. Microsoft products in the enterprise and organization are tightly integrated with Exchange Server. The Mac versions of the Office do not share this tight integration, but they integrate to a degree.

2. Schools tend to use Macs - when I read that you were a teacher, it came as no surprise that you are a Mac lover / Microsoft hater. I'm not sure whether schools find Macs easier to network or if they enjoy the educational discounts. Assuming your school uses Macs, you feel the need to cut Microsoft out of the picture entirely. Assuming your school happens not to use Macs, you dislike the ubiquity of Microsoft, as you already stated.

3. No collaborativity - schools have no need for their employees (i.e., teachers) to collaborate on projects in the sense that employees in a business collaborate. We are talking emails, markup (reviewing documents is a Microsoft innovation), and meetings, all unplanned and to take place in a matter of seconds. Schools simply do not work on this timetable. Teachers work in blocks of time (40 minutes, 50 minutes, whatever) and have predefined times in which to take care of administrative matters. IT workers schedule meetings on-the-fly and collaborate over email throughout the day. Executives do this to an even greater extent.

4. Schools don't need Office - one reason you may hate Office is because its feature set is simply beyond what anyone in a school requires. In grade school we used ClarisWorks. In high school we used Office. A generous percentage of those who took advantage of Office's advanced features at this school would be 1%. A realistic percentage would be .2%. In the enterprise, the percentage of executives using advanced features would be near 100%. The percentage of IT workers using advanced features would be 80-100%. The percentage of all computer-using employees using advanced features would be 50% at the least.

Something else you should keep in mind is that enterprises and organizations generally don't upgrade to the newest version of Office and Windows until they see a need. I've worked at companies that were perfectly content with Office 2000 and Windows 2000. The fact is, your failure to see what Microsoft innovates is just that - your failure. And given that you work in a school, you're really in no position to speak on the matter. Working in a large organization, I've seen Microsoft's innovations, and I've seen them put to use. Bear in mind, first, that I asked you what your definition of innovation is, thereby indicating that you have the wrong definition. This is a position by which I now stand to an even greater degree. Second, do not imply that I am unable to find an answer. You seem to have made a mistake that many teachers make - thinking they are right all the time. You're not. You're entitled to your opinion, but given your work environment, you have no standing nor evidence with which to back your opinion.

Mike LaRiviere

[Horrortaxi]

Why are you focusing on work? At work I have to use whatever they say I have to use. I don't expect a choice. If I can work around Microsoft I will, but if I get stuck then that's it. I'm on company time so it's reasonable to have to use company software. My problem is with my personal time and what I want to do with my own personal computers. Business has got nothing to do with it.

You've made some incorrect statements in defense of your position.
1.) The school at which I previously worked used an Exchange server.
2.) I wish schools tended to use Macs. You see a pretty healthy mix these days, but the Macs are all old. They're being replaced by PCs running Windows. That's not just my school either.
3.) Work in a school very long and tell me there's no collaboration. This was the very reason I had to use Office on my iBook. This may vary somewhat from school to school, but it will exist everywhere to some degree. You simply don't know what you're talking about.
4.) You're half right. Schools don't need Microsoft Office. Any decent office suite would do. They just need the right tool for the job. They use Office because it's the only thing out there.

I've read your last paragraph several times and I'm just very confused. You keep talking about "my" definition of innovation being wrong, but it's not "my" definition. It's "our" definition. It's "the" definition. Look it up in any dictionary. Then you're saying that it's my fault I don't see Microsoft's innovations. Please enlighten me. Tell me what they are. I'm begging you to tell me what Microsoft has come up with on their own. All you've done so far is dance around the topic the same way Microsoft does.

Whose the one with no evidence?

[MikeLaRiviere]

Why are you focusing on work? At work I have to use whatever they say I have to use. I don't expect a choice. If I can work around Microsoft I will, but if I get stuck then that's it. I'm on company time so it's reasonable to have to use company software. My problem is with my personal time and what I want to do with my own personal computers. Business has got nothing to do with it.

You've made some incorrect statements in defense of your position.
1.) The school at which I previously worked used an Exchange server.
2.) I wish schools tended to use Macs. You see a pretty healthy mix these days, but the Macs are all old. They're being replaced by PCs running Windows. That's not just my school either.
3.) Work in a school very long and tell me there's no collaboration. This was the very reason I had to use Office on my iBook. This may vary somewhat from school to school, but it will exist everywhere to some degree. You simply don't know what you're talking about.
4.) You're half right. Schools don't need Microsoft Office. Any decent office suite would do. They just need the right tool for the job. They use Office because it's the only thing out there.

I've read your last paragraph several times and I'm just very confused. You keep talking about "my" definition of innovation being wrong, but it's not "my" definition. It's "our" definition. It's "the" definition. Look it up in any dictionary. Then you're saying that it's my fault I don't see Microsoft's innovations. Please enlighten me. Tell me what they are. I'm begging you to tell me what Microsoft has come up with on their own. All you've done so far is dance around the topic the same way Microsoft does.

Whose the one with no evidence?

You're misunderstanding every statement I make, which is perhaps is the result of an error in writing on my part. I address your points:

First off, the fundamental difference between an education environment and a business environment is the amount of time one spends in front of the computer. In a business, it can and often will be all day. In a school, it is never all day. It consists of free periods, the five minutes between class, and after kids leave. Therefore, we are looking at 15-100 minutes each day in the school versus eight or more hours each day at a business.

1. You're going to have to explain to me exactly what it was for which you used the Exchange Server. I'm going to wait on your response to make this point.

2. You are correct. Given that you love Macs and hate PCs I assumed that your school was on the Mac platform. My high school had Macs only in the design lab, the rest were Dells and Compaqs.

3. Collaboration as you say it and collaboration as I mean it are two different things. Again, realize that most of your day is spend teaching kids. In a business, most of one's day is spent in front of the computer. By collaboration, therefore, I mean the entire day spent emailing a copy of a document, marking it up and viewing markups by various users. I also mean planning meetings at any point in the day and contacting the attendees. You see, in a school, teachers work singularly in the classroom. That is where they spend most of the day. In a business, employees collaborate on projects. I would say that half of my day is spent in meetings and collaboration (in front of a computer).

4. You are correct, the best reason for schools to use Microsoft Office is so that students can become familiar with this most ubiquitous tool.

Regarding the definition of innovation, I see it as the new products Microsoft outputs. Windows... putting the NT kernel on home computers... successful implementation of the wizard in an OS... Office... collaboration features in Office... real time spell check in Office... the PocketPC OS... Windows Small Business Server... Exchange Server... DirectX... the Start Menu... Recent Documents... the Registry (not saying it's a good innovation)... plug-and-play on a PC. Basically anything in a modern OS or office suite you can think of, either Apple or Microsoft pioneered it. As far as I'm concerned, if it's new and it's in a Microsoft product, it's a Microsoft innovation. I don't scour the patent files or search for prior art to dispute this fact. If it's new and I like it, it's an innovation. If you had never heard of Konfabulator and Konspose, you would think Dashboard were an Apple innovation (yes, I realize it is based on more than javascript). Expose? Not a new idea, just Apple's implementation of stacks. Heck, Amazon.com got a patent for one-click purchases, but by no means would all agree that's an innovation. Therefore, new feature in a Microsoft product equals a Microsoft innovation. Just because you don't recognize it as an innovation doesn't mean it isn't one. As far as I'm concerned, these are all Microsoft innovations, and there are far more that I can't think of right now. You may not like the innovations, but it is up to you either to prove that Microsoft stole each of these inventions and marketed them under its own name, or concede your argument.

Mike LaRiviere

[Horrortaxi]

I don't scour the patent files or search for prior art to dispute this fact. If it's new and I like it, it's an innovation.
Maybe you shoud look at patent files. You should certainly look at a dictionary because you are using an incorrect definition for "innovation."

If you're just going to make up your own definitions for words and then insist you're right then you should be working on Microsoft's development team. You're perfectly suited.

We should both be modded -1 for this thread. I'm getting pretty sick of it.

[~Shard~]

My favorite Office 2004 thing? The fact that it runs better on my Mac than it does on my Windows box. ;)

Kay, now let the flaming continue. Although I don't know why so many people seem to be giving HorrorTaxi such a hard time... At any rate, I'm not getting involved here... :cool:

[MikeLaRiviere]

Good point, we will end the argument. It looks like neither of us is going to budge. Interestingly, as I typed my responses on my Mac, my brother's P4 2.4 WinXP machine I was gaming on was giving me quite a few problems, making me question my apology for Microsoft. Good points though, and best of luck in your future teaching.

Mike LaRiviere