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View Full Version : We're going to Mars! (we're not sure how exactly and paying with credit)




blackfox
Dec 6, 2004, 01:49 AM
By Guy Gugliotta

Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, December 6, 2004; Page A01



Without a separate vote or even a debate, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) has managed to deliver to a delighted NASA enough money to forge ahead on a plan that would reshape U.S. space policy for decades to come.

President Bush's "Vision for Space Exploration," which would send humans to the moon and eventually to Mars, got a skeptical reception in January and was left for dead in midsummer, but it made a stunning last-minute comeback when DeLay delivered NASA's full $16.2 billion budget request as part of the omnibus $388 billion spending bill passed Nov. 20.

DeLay, whose newly redrawn district includes the Johnson Space Center, and NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe have all but claimed a mandate; but even with the money and parts of the project already up and running, the questions that once threatened to kill the initiative still remain largely unresolved.

What will it really cost? What NASA programs will be cut to fund it? How will other science agencies be affected? Instead of a debate and vote on the merits of the president's plan, the measure was adopted largely because DeLay threatened to scuttle the entire omnibus bill unless Bush got every nickel he requested.

"I wouldn't say we're critical of the moon-Mars program, but we are critical of the lack of clarity about the scientific benefits," said physicist Michael Lubell, spokesman for the American Physical Society, the nation's largest association of research physicists. "This is bound to be an extremely costly project, so what are we going to get from it?"

The responses are many: that humankind needs challenges; that robots will never be supple enough to take full scientific advantage of visits to other worlds; that if the United States doesn't do it, some other nation -- China, quite likely -- will. DeLay, a self-described "space nut," told Johnson Space Center employees a few days after the vote that "NASA helps America fulfill the dreams of the human heart."

And at a news conference the next day, O'Keefe said the omnibus bill embodied "as strong an endorsement as anyone could have hoped for the national space policy that the president articulated."

NASA's share amounted to 4.1 percent of the omnibus bill, and the space agency ended the year as one of the few non-security scientific agencies to get a raise for 2005, says the American Association for the Advancement of Science. Funding for the others was flat or fell.

Bush announced the space "Vision" to considerable fanfare Jan. 14, promising to "extend a human presence across our solar system," starting with a return to the moon by 2020 and eventual travel to Mars.

Lawmakers of both parties welcomed a new set of goals for a human spaceflight program traumatized and seemingly adrift after last year's loss of the space shuttle Columbia. Even today, the proposal finds few congressional detractors -- as an overall concept.

But the devil, now, as then, is in the details: "I support the president's initiative -- if it's paid for," said Rep. Bart Gordon (Tenn.), the Science Committee's leading Democrat. "I'm afraid we're setting ourselves up for a future train wreck."

Early in the year, O'Keefe tried to sell the proposal as a slow, steady initiative requiring a NASA budget increase in 2005 of only $800 million. It was the beginning of "a journey," he said, quoting from the Bush speech, "not a race."

But the plan, if carried out, would be the most ambitious space enterprise ever undertaken, and lawmakers wondered whether other programs would be scaled back to make room for it: Would spectacular science missions such as the robotic Mars rovers suffer? Or Earth science, astronomy or aeronautics?

O'Keefe did not satisfy his questioners, but while Bush's plan languished in Congress, NASA was moving ahead aggressively to implement it. O'Keefe created a new Office of Exploration Systems, headed by Associate Administrator Craig E. Steidle, a retired Navy rear admiral, test pilot and military procurement specialist.

....CONT

So, I have some problems here. Don't get me wrong, I love the concept of Space Exploration, I think it is one of the finest examples of the more laudable parts of our humanity. My problems are these:

1. That we are spending 16 Billion dollars now, in the middle of a War, with a huge Budget Deficit, and plenty of un- or under-funded problem right here on Earth, at home. These include Health Care, Education, Energy and so on. I think Space Exploration is important, and in some cases, worth sacrificing for. Still, I cannot help but be galled at the irresponsibility of funding such an enterprise in the current climate.

2. That there does not seem to be a detailed plan, as what this money is to be used for, or how much the "grand plan" envisioned by Bush will actually cost. It seems like carte blanche and again irresponsible.

3. Delay. First off, the manner in which he secured funding for Nasa (in his district, I might add) was to stick it in the OmniBus bill and then threaten to scuttle the whole thing if he didn't get all the funding he asked for. Irresponsible again.

What do you all think? Am I being too harsh?



Chip NoVaMac
Dec 6, 2004, 07:27 AM
No, not too harsh. It was the state of the economy (and waning interest from the public) that scuttled the Apollo Moon landings.

We will have spent about $120B or better in Iraq. That money could have gotten us to the Moon again, and a whole lot of new technologies. Or that money could of been used to help fund NCLB. Or to have given real relief to seniors needing medical care and prescriptions.

The shame of it we keep electing these bozos back into office. They fight term limits, because they know most voters seem to dumb to go against the tide. Or too dumb to see past the dirty ads.

stubeeef
Dec 6, 2004, 07:43 AM
So, I have some problems here. Don't get me wrong, I love the concept of Space Exploration, I think it is one of the finest examples of the more laudable parts of our humanity. My problems are these:

1. That we are spending 16 Billion dollars now, in the middle of a War, with a huge Budget Deficit, and plenty of un- or under-funded problem right here on Earth, at home. These include Health Care, Education, Energy and so on. I think Space Exploration is important, and in some cases, worth sacrificing for. Still, I cannot help but be galled at the irresponsibility of funding such an enterprise in the current climate.

2. That there does not seem to be a detailed plan, as what this money is to be used for, or how much the "grand plan" envisioned by Bush will actually cost. It seems like carte blanche and again irresponsible.

3. Delay. First off, the manner in which he secured funding for Nasa (in his district, I might add) was to stick it in the OmniBus bill and then threaten to scuttle the whole thing if he didn't get all the funding he asked for. Irresponsible again.

What do you all think? Am I being too harsh?

You are definitly a Radical Centralist Wingnut! :D

Dont Hurt Me
Dec 6, 2004, 07:53 AM
Its still only 4% of the whole budget which isnt much. Nasa needs a overhaul, and a new system to get us moving again so i am for the Nasa budget. Boeing has a nice concept of a modular design which includes a crew exploration vehicle. If we can piss away the billions in iraq then we should support Nasa.

Dont Hurt Me
Dec 6, 2004, 07:57 AM
here is boeings concept (http://boeing.com/defense-space/space/ses/buildingblocks.html) which looks like a lot of proven technology which could lower costs.

skunk
Dec 6, 2004, 07:59 AM
Its still only 4% of the whole budget which isnt much. Nasa needs a overhaul, and a new system to get us moving again so i am for the Nasa budget. Boeing has a nice concept of a modular design which includes a crew exploration vehicle. If we can piss away the billions in iraq then we should support Nasa.
Isn't it time we sorted out some of the problems here on Earth? It may only be 4% of the whole budget, but most of that budget is being borrowed from abroad, which can't be good. The only reason you can "piss away billions in Iraq" is because everybody else is subsidizing it. And because GWB can't afford to admit he blew it.

pseudobrit
Dec 6, 2004, 08:06 AM
I say **** it. If I were going clean, flat-out bankrupt and knew it, I'd use all the credit I had to buy all the toys I could afford with said credit. I mean, I know I'll never have to pay the bill.

skunk
Dec 6, 2004, 08:08 AM
I knew you'd say that... ;)

pseudobrit
Dec 6, 2004, 08:14 AM
I knew you'd say that... ;)

Shut up and buy some dollars, limey. We need to finance a very big rocket ship.

Dont Hurt Me
Dec 6, 2004, 08:15 AM
The space program has been floundering with shuttle for years so i am all for a new design thats safer cheaper and lays down the building blocks instead of one shot wonders to space. The Boeing concept deserves a look and by using many current made items like the delta4 and shuttle's main booster we could have a sustained way to low orbit,high orbit and lunar orbit operating within this new budget. I know its Nasa and they never have anything underbudget. :rolleyes:

blackfox
Dec 6, 2004, 08:37 AM
Shut up and buy some dollars, limey. We need to finance a very big rocket ship.
that was funny.

skunk
Dec 6, 2004, 09:08 AM
Shut up and buy some dollars, limey. We need to finance a very big rocket ship.
I'm already buying up as much of your dirt-cheap third world merchandise as I can. Gimme a break! :D

IJ Reilly
Dec 6, 2004, 10:21 AM
I'm already buying up as much of your dirt-cheap third world merchandise as I can. Gimme a break! :D

A break? Have you seen the currency exchange tables lately? You're already getting one.

skunk
Dec 6, 2004, 10:23 AM
A break? Have you seen the currency exchange tables lately? You're already getting one.
Why else would I buy? :D
Those 30" displays look awfully tempting, come to think of it....

LethalWolfe
Dec 6, 2004, 12:01 PM
Isn't it time we sorted out some of the problems here on Earth?

But there will always be problems here on Earth. Not that I agree w/Delay's tactics, but if we wait for all of Earth to be a-okay before we look back to space we'll never look back to space.


Lethal

zimv20
Dec 6, 2004, 12:15 PM
If I were going clean, flat-out bankrupt and knew it, I'd use all the credit I had to buy all the toys I could afford with said credit. I mean, I know I'll never have to pay the bill.
including a rocket to get you off the planet, eh?

pseudobrit
Dec 6, 2004, 01:52 PM
Why else would I buy? :D
Those 30" displays look awfully tempting, come to think of it....

Wanna buy some wood?

I think our #1 export in the past 5 years has been manufacturing jobs.

including a rocket to get you off the planet, eh?

Wait, I though Bush was going up.

skunk
Dec 6, 2004, 02:07 PM
Wanna buy some wood?
Funnily enough, yes. I buy quite large quantities of American White Oak: it's even cheaper than the Chinese stuff these days.

Chip NoVaMac
Dec 7, 2004, 02:05 PM
I know its Nasa and they never have anything underbudget. :rolleyes:

I thought that was Haliburton. :D

Chip NoVaMac
Dec 7, 2004, 02:08 PM
But there will always be problems here on Earth. Not that I agree w/Delay's tactics, but if we wait for all of Earth to be a-okay before we look back to space we'll never look back to space.


Lethal

I see what you mean, but we also need to have politicians that are willing to look at the larger picture (and not operate in a vacuum). What could we have done with the $150B to $200B that the Iraq War II is going to cost us?