Abercrombie & Fitch Discrimination Lawsuit

[slipper]

Heres a topic i found on a local forum here in Hawaii...

Sorry if this is old new but I hate A&F. If you havent heard already, Abercromie and Fitch have lost a $40 million lawsuit for racial discrimination. If you havent noticed, everytime you walk by the front of their stores they only have blonde hair, blue eye haoles. Even though I am a hapa boy I found this very offensive and apparently I wasnt the only one. On the 20/20 special I watched the other night, A&F beleived that the " All America Look" should not consist any asian, black, spanish, or ect.......They also encouraged minoritys not apply for any positions in their stores. Apparently minority are below their level of standard. Please do not support them . Check out this article...............

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/05/60minutes/main587099.shtml

The quote was not typed by myself.

The fact is, racism and discrimination is still a major problem. In fact i play starcraft everyonce in a while, i have been called everything from a spik, hindu, niger, chink, jew, but never a caucasian related comment. Abercrombie has settled the class action lawsuit for $40 million but i do not see anything changed. In fact i had several friends, non-caucasian, apply at the local Abercrombie and Fitch for the holiday hiring and neither of them got hired. Please do your part, please discontinue your support for racially insensitive companies.

[iJon]

Well at my local A&F there is an Arab guy working there. As for the pictures on the wall, who cares. It's their store and can put up whatever they want. I can go to Rocawear and FUBU online and I don't see any white people and my heart isn't broken.

Also, your friends not getting hired means nothing. I have had ton of friends apply and not get in. Were your friends good looking, in good shape, visually pleasing? These are the type of people they want and I don't see why they would settle for less when they have so many applicants.

jon

[Chip NoVaMac]

When was the last time you saw someone over 40 in a yellow shirt at Best Buy? Hopefully lawsuits like this will wake up others...

[Koodauw]

When was the last time you saw someone over 40 in a yellow shirt at Best Buy? Hopefully lawsuits like this will wake up others...

When I worked at best buy we had our fair share of people over 40 on the LP staff. (The yellow shirt guys)

One worked it as a second job, another was a cop by day, and LP guy at night, 2 nights a week. The LP staff was always averaged an older age than any other department.

AS for Abercrombie...

My Friend used to work there. He is from Hong Kong. Can speak english as well as anyone, and wears the ambercrombie line amzing well. Yet he never got scheduled hours. We work together (at another mall store) and he is by far the top sales person in our store, and a leader.

He will tell you first hand about the discrimination he received at Ambercrombie. He had to talk people into giving up their shifts to get work. Even then sometimes management wouldn't let him take the shifts.

I wouldn't have thought it either, but after his stories first hand, I believe this. The Lawsuit didnt happen for no reason.

[BrianKonarsMac]

all i know is the A&F at the local mall where I work part time at sharper image (don't buy their crap!) has these two asian hotties that work there, and one indian, if anything they are sexually discriminative. it's all women! not that i'm complaining of course when i go to ask if they can sell us any rolls of quarters...(although the clothes are really annoying, especially since it's all teenager's parents wearing the clothes to look like they know what the deal is).

[slipper]

iJon and whoever cares to read

I am a non-caucasian, and without being overly sensative to the subject there is no mistaking the discrimination which takes place. If you are caucasian, maybe you just dont notice it because the discrimination doesnt happen to you?

Sure its their company, but your saying its ok to discriminate? Ok so theres 1 arab guy working at your A&F, from my understanding arkansas is strongly dominated by whites. Here in Hawaii, its very different. My girlfriend frequents the store often so i should know. There is almost never any other ethnicities working there. Obviously there is a problem with A&B if there is a lawsuit, 1 arab guy doesnt prove anything.

There still is a problem at A&B and elsewhere. Please do not support discriminating companys.

[bousozoku]

I don't doubt that they discriminate. Out of 10 or so stores where I've been in Floriduh, I've only seen caucasians and, if they're radical, a light-skinned, straight-haired hispanic. I've never seen an Asian or a black person behind the counter.

Then, there is Hollister--their new store chain. It's pretty much the same but different. The one thing they share is that they don't mention anything about Columbus, OH where they are headquartered. I wouldn't mention it either.

They've been in trouble for their quarterly magazines which have supposedly dropped the racy photography. It was never bad but it certainly got them into trouble and was out of character for a company from such a conservative area. In any case, they're not about to go away.

[Spymit007]

I thought I'd chime in on this issue because I feel I have somewhat strong convictions on the subject matter.

Demographics: male, 23, college educated, not struggling to make ends meet but not necessarily rolling in dough

First off, let me say that I haven't bought clothes from A&F since mid 2000 because personally speaking, I find their clothing line boring and uninspired and at times, downright tacky. Pre 2000, they use to make really good looking clothing. But lately, their catalog has gone downhill. This is simply my own personal opinion but I don't like the look of Abercrombie clothes.

Plus, I don't like their whole "lifestyle" approach. I don't care for their advertising campaign of using scantilly clad young, good looking models to sell their clothes. Half the time, their models aren't even wearing any clothes. When I buy clothes, I want to buy clothes, not the lifestyle of the clothes. A&F seem to think that by wearing their clothing line, you're going to be magically transported to some spring meadow with a group of firm-bodied hotties undressing each other.

Essentially, I think A&F has gotten really trashy over the years. Their quarterly catalogs have gotten more and more provacative and racy. It has generated much buzz over the years as I am sure they planned it that way to get publicity. If they need to resort to such tactics and gimmicks, I question the actual quality of their clothing.

The fact that they discriminate bothers me but to hear the other side, they are a private company and can do whatever they want in terms of marketing. I liken it to the Supreme Court ruling that the Boy Scouts can refuse membership to a homosexual because they are a private organization and can make their own rules regarding such issues. It's sad that in this day and age, racism and discrimination are still present.

Because they discriminate, I have another reason now not to buy their clothing line (aside from the fact that it's all crap anyway).

[gwuMACaddict]

whoever made the point about FUBU has it exactly right... let manufacturers cater to whomever they want...

because where does it stop? can fat women get upset because victorias secret doesnt put fat people in their windows?

[Chip NoVaMac]

When I worked at best buy we had our fair share of people over 40 on the LP staff. (The yellow shirt guys)

One worked it as a second job, another was a cop by day, and LP guy at night, 2 nights a week. The LP staff was always averaged an older age than any other department.

In the DC area, I don't see that. Nor have my friends been hired during the hiring sprees that BB has from time to time.

[Chip NoVaMac]

iJon and whoever cares to read

I am a non-caucasian, and without being overly sensative to the subject there is no mistaking the discrimination which takes place. If you are caucasian, maybe you just dont notice it because the discrimination doesnt happen to you?

Sure its their company, but your saying its ok to discriminate? Ok so theres 1 arab guy working at your A&F, from my understanding arkansas is strongly dominated by whites. Here in Hawaii, its very different. My girlfriend frequents the store often so i should know. There is almost never any other ethnicities working there. Obviously there is a problem with A&B if there is a lawsuit, 1 arab guy doesnt prove anything.

There still is a problem at A&B and elsewhere. Please do not support discriminating companys.

Not to mention that any discrimination in the hiring practice is wrong. As long as public safety is not compromised, and the person is able to do the job - then they should be hired.

[Kyle?]

whoever made the point about FUBU has it exactly right... let manufacturers cater to whomever they want...

because where does it stop? can fat women get upset because victorias secret doesnt put fat people in their windows?

Right on.

[Chip NoVaMac]

So sad that we have allowed the media to sell us on the idea that only the "pretty" need apply. And it sad that so many have bought in to it, that they look past how wrong it is.

[gwuMACaddict]

So sad that we have allowed the media to sell us on the idea that only the "pretty" need apply. And it sad that so many have bought in to it, that they look past how wrong it is.

are you really going to buy clothes that look ugly on ugly people?

advertising's job is to make you think you'll look good in what they're selling, they use attractive people to do this. it's life.

[Chip NoVaMac]

are you really going to buy clothes that look ugly on ugly people?

advertising's job is to make you think you'll look good in what they're selling, they use attractive people to do this. it's life.

The issue is that we are now allowing the advertising message to crossover into the shopping experience. What's next, A&F refusing to sell their products to someone because they are too fat or ugly?

A lot of this talk here reminds me of the movie Shallow Hal.

[gwuMACaddict]

What's next, A&F refusing to sell their products to someone because they are too fat or ugly?

i dont think thats a logical continuation at all... nor do i think anyone is suggesting that.

[pseudobrit]

i dont think thats a logical continuation at all... nor do i think anyone is suggesting that.

No, the logical continuation, as addressed in the first post is that A&F should be allowed to hire attractive white people exclusively to work in its stores.

And by defending their actions, you would be suggesting that.

[gwuMACaddict]

i believe thats a conclusion taken to an illogical extreme

[Chip NoVaMac]

No, the logical continuation, as addressed in the first post is that A&F should be allowed to hire attractive white people exclusively to work in its stores.

And by defending their actions, you would be suggesting that.

Not defending A&F, in fact I am happy they are being sued.

Haven't we moved past the days that flight attendants had to be single, Barbie doll perfect women, as an example of old ideas that should rest in peace?

[iJon]

Not defending A&F, in fact I am happy they are being sued.

Haven't we moved past the days that flight attendants had to be single, Barbie doll perfect women, as an example of old ideas that should rest in peace?
I don't know but you might want to jump on Hooters case cause I doubt we are going to see some ugly women on that airliner. I'm sure someone will get offended.

jon

[Chip NoVaMac]

i believe thats a conclusion taken to an illogical extreme

Really? Not much of a difference in my mind. If the product image is so important as to discriminate in hiring, then is not that product to valuable to be brought down by those whose body image would harm that product image?

[gwuMACaddict]

give me a break... i see fat girls in prada every day in this city and it doesnt seem to be affecting their sales...

[gwuMACaddict]

for the record, i dont enjoy what companies like this do (abercrombie, hooters, etc.) but i feel like its a fact of life that we all want to see pretty people, look pretty, etc... thats all.

[pseudobrit]

for the record, i dont enjoy what companies like this do (abercrombie, hooters, etc.) but i feel like its a fact of life that we all want to see pretty people, look pretty, etc... thats all.

The problem is that obviously the people A&F wants aren't just "pretty" but pretty white.

[gwuMACaddict]

The problem is that obviously the people A&F wants aren't just "pretty" but pretty white.

when i walk past stores in my area... and they're everywhere around here becuase its what most college kids wear, there is a huge assortment of nationalities working at the stores. who they want to put in their ads is up to them.

[apple2991]

iJon and whoever cares to read

I am a non-caucasian, and without being overly sensative to the subject there is no mistaking the discrimination which takes place. If you are caucasian, maybe you just dont notice it because the discrimination doesnt happen to you?

That is racism in itself, Slipper. You are questioning his ability to logically and intelligently observe, listen, and evaluate based on the color of HIS skin. And if you are a non-caucasian, maybe you "notice" it too much because you are over-sensitive to discrimination?

Sure its their company, but your saying its ok to discriminate? Ok so theres 1 arab guy working at your A&F, from my understanding arkansas is strongly dominated by whites.
It's their company, and they are trying to sell an image. They aren't hiring based on any real skill, technical knowledge, or workplace effectiveness--they are hiring based on looks. Now, if there were two equally qualified people applying for a technical position, and the company always hired the caucasian applicant, THAT would be discrimination. But the qualifications for selling an image--which is what A&F does--are solely to represent that image, and varying ethnicities do not appeal to the image that A&F is trying to sell. They're not saying you are worthless because you aren't a young, attractive caucasian, they're saying that you do not represent the image and the company that they are trying to sell. Why is A&F predominately shopped by white people, why are FUBU stores/etc. predominately shopped by black people? Because of the image they sell.


There still is a problem at A&B and elsewhere. Please do not support discriminating companys.

Erm, actually, that's what we're discussing. Hold your horses on reactionary conclusions, there.

Anyway, I've got to go get laughed out of the FUBU store when I apply for a job there. Oh, wait, that's racism!

[Koodauw]

Abercrombie can market however they want, but when this starts to happen


Jennifer Lu worked at the Crystal Court Mall store in Costa Mesa, California for three years while she was a student at U.C. Irvine. She and five other Asian American employees were terminated after a visit from senior management and replaced with white sales staff.

then there is a very large problem.

[Josh]

Guys - its Abercrombie and Fitch, not Walmart.

People who apply at A&F are naturally going to be from a certain demographic. You're not going to see a 55 year old biker-type apply there, now are you?

So why should it be surprising that the types of people they hire are very similiar to the types of people who apply?

Same goes for FUBU et al...who is applying there? Do white people ever apply there? No, they have no reason to.

Its all relative to demographics, not racism.

If an 80 year old seamtress walked into a tatto parlor, do you think she'd get hired? No - she wouldnt. And she shouldnt even bother if she was in her right mind.

Same goes for a teenage kid with tattoos and peircings trying to apply for a job at Jo-Ann fabrics. He wont get hired, nor should he even try.

A&F DO cator to a certain demographic, but that is does not make them racist. Its their store - they have a certain look, scheme, and target market. To think they will hire anyone, regardless if they fit that agenda, is absurd.

[StarbucksSam]

It's at least true, if not racially, that Abercrombie discriminates against people who aren't model-looking. Seriously, if I wanted a job there, I'm what people call a regular and pretty good looking without being model hot guy, and I wouldn't be able to get a job there. You can tell, like if I look around in there.. the guys are all just extremely shall we say... attractive to women and the girls are like WHOA. So... yeah.

[SilentPanda]

My local A&F (we have two in the mall... why I don't know) has recently had two people standing in the door way, one a shirtless male with a 6-pack, and a female in a short skirt... I'm half tempted sometimes to walk in there and tell the guy, "Hey... your shift is over. I'll take over from here" and take off my shirt and stand there... that would not be pretty... :D Panda belly power!

But a little more on topic... I don't buy things from A&F mainly because I'm not the kind of person that likes to wear "A&F" across their chest... I'll sport a plain white t-shirt (3 for $5!) any day over some shirt that says "Abercrombie & Fitch"...

[Lord Blackadder]

Can having a "theme" or catering to a demographic include a policy (explicit or implicit) that splits consumers into racial groups and discourages participation by groups not targeted by the theme? That's the question here, I think.

I always thought of A&F as a snotty upper-middle class white kids' store, because those are the people that I see on their posters (the most attractive snotyy upper_middle class white kids), behind their registers, and in the store shopping. That in itself is a discriminatory statement, I know, but it is a reflection of their "image" which is exclusive of other groups so I won't apologize for saying it. In the words of George Costanza, Jimmie crack corn and I don't care!

They ARE being discriminatory in discouraging snotty upper-middle class people with other ethnic backgrounds from working there. Some redneck corporate executives think that the A&F look is white people. Guess what! they're clothes! anybody can wear them! Even people who aren't snotty!

We need to fight discriminatory practices wherever they crop up (A&F here IS an example), but at the same time please don't muddy the waters by being hypersensitive about what constitutes racism. It's not wrong notice that people are different, it's wrong to place VALUES on differences.

[zelmo]

The issue is that we are now allowing the advertising message to crossover into the shopping experience. What's next, A&F refusing to sell their products to someone because they are too fat or ugly?

A lot of this talk here reminds me of the movie Shallow Hal.

All any company has to do to discriminate against fat people is not make their clothes above a certain size. If you can't fit into it, you aren't buying and wearing it (I hope!).

I don't shop A & F, because I don't like the style. Seems to me that they are within their rights to hire whoever they want to project the image they sell, just as I am within mine to boycott them because I don't like or agree with that image.

[iJon]

They ARE being discriminatory in discouraging snotty upper-middle class people with other ethnic backgrounds from working there. Some redneck corporate executives think that the A&F look is white people. Guess what! they're clothes! anybody can wear them! Even people who aren't snotty!Yeah we know they are clothes and anyone can wear them, they don't stop anyone from buying any of it. I can go buy Rocawear and FUBU and put gold caps on my teeth and walk around and be a wigga, but I will probably get my ass beaten down. Plus with all my black friends, they wouldn't shop at AF anyways, they don't have any clothes they like. They wear either much nicer preppy clothes like Polo or they wear Echo. My black and Asian friends aren't throwing a hissy fit for AF's good looking men on the walls, they worry about more important things.

jon

[apple2991]

Can having a "theme" or catering to a demographic include a policy (explicit or implicit) that splits consumers into racial groups and discourages participation by groups not targeted by the theme? That's the question here, I think.

Sorry, no. That absolutely isn't the question. We're not criticizing A&F for not allowing various ethnicities to shop there, but to simply represent the company's image. Besides, what do you think marketing does? Yeah, FUBU, Sean John, Nike, record companies, Victoria's Secret--these guys NEVER split consumers into demographic groups (beit racial, sexual, etc.) for marketing and sales purposes. Oh, wait, that's why there's more than one freaking clothes store in the mall.


I always thought of A&F as a snotty upper-middle class white kids' store, because those are the people that I see on their posters (the most attractive snotyy upper_middle class white kids), behind their registers, and in the store shopping. That in itself is a discriminatory statement, I know, but it is a reflection of their "image" which is exclusive of other groups so I won't apologize for saying it. In the words of George Costanza, Jimmie crack corn and I don't care!

They ARE being discriminatory in discouraging snotty upper-middle class people with other ethnic backgrounds from working there. Some redneck corporate executives think that the A&F look is white people. Guess what! they're clothes! anybody can wear them! Even people who aren't snotty!


Guess what! They're clothes! Anybody can buy them! How is that discriminatory?

You've managed to write an entire post without actually saying anything. Congratulations!

[Lord Blackadder]

Sorry, no. That absolutely isn't the question. We're not criticizing A&F for not allowing various ethnicities to shop there, but to simply represent the company's image. Besides, what do you think marketing does? Yeah, FUBU, Sean John, Nike, record companies, Victoria's Secret--these guys NEVER split consumers into demographic groups (beit racial, sexual, etc.) for marketing and sales purposes. Oh, wait, that's why there's more than one freaking clothes store in the mall.



Guess what! They're clothes! Anybody can buy them! How is that discriminatory?

You've managed to write an entire post without actually saying anything. Congratulations!

Did you read my post? I am not accusing A&F of not allowing certain ethnicities to shop there either. The higher percentage of a certain group of shoppers at A&F reflects a response to the store's projected image, part of which includes hiring only employees that project that image. This last part is what I'm taking issue with, although I also poked fun at their image in general. It is a practice that can be uncontroversial in some cases but can also constitute an illegal activity.

Marketeers ALWAYS split consumers into demographic groups. Every single company that you listed has statistics on who buys their products - age, income, location, occupation, gender, race. It is a very common marketing practice, almost universal. The info is acquired in a number of ways, usually purchased from other companies who collect it. How that information is utilized is up to the company, and may or may not be proper.

I did not intend to write a post about nothing. I'll be as clear as possible:

Consumers have a right to choose whatever products they wish. (even if by doing so they will stretch or violate social norms, like in iJon's example.)

Companies are permitted to market their products to specific groups, so long as they are not excluding other groups from being able to purchase them.

Companies DO NOT have a right to restrict employment to the groups that their products target, either by explicit policy or implicit policy. This falls under the category of discrimination, which is prohibited by law.

My point is that the EXCLUSION of groups from employment is illegal, not the splitting of consumers into categories. Obviously A&F (in the original post's example) felt that the civil courts would agree with my statement at least somewhat, since they settled out of court. A&F cannot legally refuse non-whites employment on implicit racial grounds. They can refuse them all day based on lack of qualification, but you can only get away with that for so long until a pattern emerges.

Why do you think FUBU and similar clothes designers call their styles things like "urban wear" as opposed to anything that mentions ethnicity, even though (statistically speaking) certain ethnic groups buy these clothes in a much higher proportion? FUBU may be intended to satisfy a certain (ethnic) market, but they do not exclude others from buying. Whether it's socially appropriate is another matter (and not a legal one).

This issue is always cropping up in one form or another. It all comes down to where to draw the line as far as discrimination is concerned. I recall a while back a cross-dresser tried to get hired as a Hooter's waitress and sued claiming discrimination when he didn't. The fact that the lawsuit was considered at all shows just how sensitive an issue this continues to be.

[Wyvernspirit]

Really? Not much of a difference in my mind. If the product image is so important as to discriminate in hiring, then is not that product to valuable to be brought down by those whose body image would harm that product image?

Actually its easy for them to discriminate against fat people wearing their cloths, they don't make them in their size. Ugly is harder to do.

[Wyvernspirit]

Why do you think FUBU and similar clothes designers call their styles things like "urban wear" as opposed to anything that mentions ethnicity, even though (statistically speaking) certain ethnic groups buy these clothes in a much higher proportion? FUBU may be intended to satisfy a certain (ethnic) market, but they do not exclude others from buying. Whether it's socially appropriate is another matter (and not a legal one).



This point actually helps the otherside of your argument not yours. A&F does not stop anyone from purchasing their apperal (except maybe us fat people) and neither does FUBU or any other "urban wear." But would you see a white person selling their products. That gets more to the long and short of this.

I do not agree with A&F on many levels, but I am not sure this arguement has much merit. When we talk about discrimination it is usually about whites (and many times white men) discriminating against some other group, be it color, sex, religeon or social standing. I for one think we should all try to get along and all be allowed to be and do what we want not be cast out of a group because of a technicality, but should people of similar interest not be allowed to do something together without those who they might feel don't belong? (And when considering this consider schools or clubs that only allow women, or blacks or asians... I could go on).

I am not saying A&F should be allowed to discriminate, although I believe the antidiscrimination laws may not apply if they are a private company that does not receive public money, I am saying that it is a tricky slope that needs to be discussed and thought about before rash discisions are made.

And to further fuel the fires, what is you have two applicants, both capable of doing the job, one, however, (lets say he's white) is more qualified then the other (lets say a black female). Should the company be pressured to hire the second applicant in order to not be seen as discrimating? Or what if both where of equal ability should they then just choose the second because it will again keep them from being perceived as discrimating?

Just something to think about.

[snkTab]

A&F hires on race not 'the look.'
A&F fires on race not 'the look.'
A&F promotes on race not 'the look.'

You think 'hey, A&F wants to sell to white football jocks and cheerleaders. Why not make the employees like that too?' The answer is because it's a civil rights violation.

FUBU sells clothes that are mostly bought by african americans (typically loose fitting, dark colored, sport related clothes) while A&F sell preppy clothes. What we see is that preppy asians and latinos are still fired. FUBU and A&F have the right to pick their demographic sure, but have no rights in discrimination. This includes their hiring practices. See Civil Rights act of 1960-something. You don't here stories of FUBU management walking into a store and hiring all the white people. This is not saying that the people in these stores are disappriotionally white or black because they probally are. Based probally on the application demographics. Seperation which race can work where is called segregation. Might I remind people that this is generally seen as a step in the wrong direction.

And another note, let me remind people that A&F was sued in 2002 for making racially discriminating shirts against Asian Americans. Obviously, 'you're not good for our stores but good enough to be made fun of on our shirts' is not a good policy.

[OULittlebit]

I haven't read most of these posts because I don't really care about repeating other people. I'm a minority and I work at A&F. I'm not saying I haven't experience discrimination in the store because I have but it's not the whole company and it's not everyone so it's not fair to overgeneralize about these kinds of things. Internally the company is far more flawed than just hiring practices, so I don't complain about those. It's a horrible place to work, but they pay me, I buy food and I get over it.

[iJon]

And another note, let me remind people that A&F was sued in 2002 for making racially discriminating shirts against Asian Americans. Obviously, 'you're not good for out stores but good enough to be made fun of on our shirts' is not a good policy.
Actually if you look at their shirts they make fun of damn near everything cause they are humor tees. I think the are funny and I own some, but I'm also white and preppy so I'm sure that puts me in my place.

jon

[Lord Blackadder]

This point actually helps the otherside of your argument not yours. A&F does not stop anyone from purchasing their apperal (except maybe us fat people) and neither does FUBU or any other "urban wear." But would you see a white person selling their products. That gets more to the long and short of this.

Not at all. It strengthens my argument because it is an example of another company with similar practices to A&F. The example does not touch on the issue of employment; it merely shows how a "look" is marketed to a group without being explicit in mentioning the target group.

When someone is seeking a job, they may not care which "look" their employer promotes, but they will be concerned when they don't get a job based on their ethnicity. I'm trying to attack this problem by looking at the legality of things, I don't want to emphasize an opinion. Of course, ideally there would be no discussion of this at all, and there is nothing inherently wrong with a FUBU store staffed entirely by black people, or an A&F store staffed entirely by white people. But how did those staffs get that way? was it because certain target groups prefer to buy (and work for) certain companies as a result of marketing/style preferences, or is that tendency helped by discriminatory hiring practices?


I am not saying A&F should be allowed to discriminate, although I believe the antidiscrimination laws may not apply if they are a private company that does not receive public money, I am saying that it is a tricky slope that needs to be discussed and thought about before rash discisions are made.

The laws you speak of most definitely apply to private companies. The federal government is a little more careful in enforcing such policies with government employees, but they apply to all.

And to further fuel the fires, what is you have two applicants, both capable of doing the job, one, however, (lets say he's white) is more qualified then the other (lets say a black female). Should the company be pressured to hire the second applicant in order to not be seen as discrimating? Or what if both where of equal ability should they then just choose the second because it will again keep them from being perceived as discrimating?

Just something to think about.

What you are talking about here is affirmative action, and it is indeed a difficult topic. Recently several universities in the U.S. have been successfully sued by white students who claimed that they were discriminated against by affirmitive action-related policies. Many companies/universities are pressured to have an ethnically diverse workforce/student body (in order to recieve government funding, status, or private donations/benefits) that is in reality unrepresentative of the population. In other words, a university's student population may contain minority groups in a proportion much greater than they exist in the general population. Again, there is nothing wrong with this in itself, but if the university is purposely excluding qualified non-minority students in order to achieve a large amount of diversity they are discriminating iagainst those students. This is a less common instance, since affirmitive action is generally a very functional and laudible concept, but it is subject to abuse, like any policy.

This issue goes far beyond A&F, but they seem (at least on one occasion) to be violating the laws against descrimination with regard to their hiring practice, as the lawsuits attest.

[Wyvernspirit]

You don't here stories of FUBU management walking into a store and hiring all the white people. ...snip... much more...

Did you read my post, well I guess I wouldn't blame you if you hadn't it is long and windy :) . Anyways, fubu is not likely to go and hire all the whites, they would be likely to hire all the blacks. Right wrong, I'm not going to say. Infact, 'm not sure I have the answer, or an answer for the A&F situation.

I have a couple questions however:

Should a company be allowed to market toward a certain demographic?

Do you think that Employees of a business, in their own way, are seen as advertisements for that business?

If they are marketing to a certain Demographic, don't they have a right to maintain the Demographic? When it comes to Advertising? Their Employees?

If you went to a store looking to buy "Urban wear" and saw a middle-aged white "preppy" man waering a suit and tie, would that put you off on that store? Would he really know what was good/bad?

Just some thoughts to consider. Discuss. ;)

[Lord Blackadder]

I have a couple questions however:

Should a company be allowed to market toward a certain demographic?

Do you think that Employees of a business, in their own way, are seen as advertisements for that business?

If they are marketing to a certain Demographic, don't they have a right to maintain the Demographic? When it comes to Advertising? Their Employees?

If you went to a store looking to buy "Urban wear" and saw a middle-aged white "preppy" man waering a suit and tie, would that put you off on that store? Would he really know what was good/bad?



Right or wrong, the first two points you bring up are legally permissible, while the third is a huge grey area, leaning toward no at the moment.

As to your last statement, I'd say that the preppy man in the "urban wear" store, is bad marketing. However, bad marketing is not illegal, whereas discrimination is. The urban wear store has an obligation to give the preppy guy a fair consideration when hiring him. That's the law. But nthey can stipulate that he dresses in urban wear on the job - dress code.

I can tell you that if I went into Bannana Republic or J. Crew and the guy on the floor was dressed in urban wear or had a Goth look, I would question his ability to understand the store's fashion. :D Same thing if I went to Kaufmanns' and all the employees were dressed like they just came back from a 50 Cent concert, or if everybody in Hot Topic looked like they jumped out of the Sachs Fifth Avenue catalog. :eek:

[jxyama]

i didn't read much of the thread. and i don't know the merits of the lawsuit against A&F. but one thing i feel is, there are too many people in this country who not only think they can live their live without ever being offended but that they have the right to not ever get offended.

i think some people in general need to develop thicker skin and learn to live a real life instead of being trigger happy about claiming racism or filing lawsuits.

will such inaction result in serious problems? i doubt it. because if things get to the point of extreme, the negative repurcussions would be so severe that the problem will take care of itself. if A&F proceeds further with their allegedly racial practice, it will get to the point where their corporate image will not appeal to most of the masses and their business will go stale.

[tabascoishot]

i think some people in general need to develop thicker skin and learn to live a real life instead of being trigger happy about claiming racism or filing lawsuits.

will such inaction result in serious problems? i doubt it. because if things get to the point of extreme, the negative repurcussions would be so severe that the problem will take care of itself. if A&F proceeds further with their allegedly racial practice, it will get to the point where their corporate image will not appeal to most of the masses and their business will go stale.

You sound like the people who thought Brown v. Board of Education and the civil rights legislation of the 1960's was superfluous and redundant. After all, if everyone is so civilized and educated we shouldn't have these problems, right?

Maybe when I see these shrines to the Aryan nation start to close down, I'll agree with you.

As much as I long to share your optimism in our fellow man - we have to stay on point on these issues. Racism isn't dead, or even almost gone. It's taken on other, more insidious forms that are hard to see through (which explains your POV).

You think that in 2004, green would be the only color that mattered. Banana Republic doesn't have any problem getting their white customers to buy their clothes even though minority professional-yuppie-preppy types of every other color do too!!

And they pulled this s*t in HAWAII too???

This just makes me more pissed off at Ohio...

[slipper]

i didn't read much of the thread. and i don't know the merits of the lawsuit against A&F. but one thing i feel is, there are too many people in this country who not only think they can live their live without ever being offended but that they have the right to not ever get offended.

i think some people in general need to develop thicker skin and learn to live a real life instead of being trigger happy about claiming racism or filing lawsuits.

will such inaction result in serious problems? i doubt it. because if things get to the point of extreme, the negative repurcussions would be so severe that the problem will take care of itself. if A&F proceeds further with their allegedly racial practice, it will get to the point where their corporate image will not appeal to most of the masses and their business will go stale.

I totally agree with you jxyama. As far as A&F, the proof is in the pudding. A lawsuit was slapped on A&F, A&F knew there was a problem and settled with a $40 million cash settlement, A&F stated they will discontinue their discriminatory practices and hire minorities.

[bousozoku]

i didn't read much of the thread. and i don't know the merits of the lawsuit against A&F. but one thing i feel is, there are too many people in this country who not only think they can live their live without ever being offended but that they have the right to not ever get offended.

i think some people in general need to develop thicker skin and learn to live a real life instead of being trigger happy about claiming racism or filing lawsuits.
...


You're probably right about thicker skin. When I grew up, it was okay for whites to beat up Asians--even the police looked the other way. However, I do think that we must continue to mention it or we'll be back there once again.

Obviously, this isn't as harsh a situation, but if there is any chance that this is a prolonged attitude from those same people I experienced, they need to wake up to this century.

[Spymit007]

Does anyone here even buy or wear A&F clothes???

As I said before, I simply don't like their clothing line. It's just bad in my opinion.

A hypothetical situation would be if a company that I loved was discriminating. For example, what if we all found out that Apple was discriminating in their hiring process? What would that do to our tight-knit community???

In 1999 when I was a senior in high school, I predicted the collapse of Abercrombie and Fitch as the company is now within the next 15 years. I hope I'm right. As for now, I could care less what happens to them.

[iJon]

Does anyone here even buy or wear A&F clothes???

As I said before, I simply don't like their clothing line. It's just bad in my opinion.

A hypothetical situation would be if a company that I loved was discriminating. For example, what if we all found out that Apple was discriminating in their hiring process? What would that do to our tight-knit community???

In 1999 when I was a senior in high school, I predicted the collapse of Abercrombie and Fitch as the company is now within the next 15 years. I hope I'm right. As for now, I could care less what happens to them.
I do, but it makes sense cause of the other posters, I'm the snotty rich kid who buys their stuff. I buy just about a little from every company. Gap, AF, AE, Eddie Bauer, Banana Republic, Polo, Hot Topic, Express, J.Ferrar, and so forth. I buy what looks good and just about everyone has something I like that fits one mood or the other.

jon

[bousozoku]

I do, but it makes sense cause of the other posters, I'm the snotty rich kid who buys their stuff. I buy just about a little from every company. Gap, AF, AE, Eddie Bauer, Banana Republic, Polo, Hot Topic, Express, J.Ferrar, and so forth. I buy what looks good and just about everyone has something I like that fits one mood or the other.

jon

I've bought a couple of shirts from AnF, shorts from AE, shirts from Banana Republic, and shirts Express for Men before it was named that but they were all on clearance, since I wasn't rich. I've always bought from Old Navy, which is a Gap company, just like Banana Republic, for less affluent people.

Sometimes, the stuff just looks nice. I stay away from the really crinkly stuff that makes AnF famous. Besides, I'll never look truly blonde--Asians look funny with blonde hair. ;)

[Spymit007]

I'll never look truly blonde--Asians look funny with blonde hair. ;)


So very true...an old girlfriend of mine was very close to convincing me to bleach it. I am so glad I never went through with it!

I also buy what looks good and what lasts and for me, that means that most of my clothing comes from J. Crew. In my opinion, their stuff is 1000% better and classier than anything A&F peddles. And the price between the two places are pretty much the same too even though J. Crew seems way more upscale than A&F. I also mostly buy from J. Crew's clearance or sale sections although I do occasionally splurge on a high-priced item every now and then. The feeling of looking good can sometimes be priceless (to an extent at least).

[Wyvernspirit]

Well I think we need to bring a law suit on all the companies mentioned because the discriminate against us larger sized individuals. When the Average size american is getting closer to my heft then toward the heroin look, these companies to start to make clothing for us and allow us to work for them.

Who's with me? Class action?

[apple2991]

Well I think we need to bring a law suit on all the companies mentioned because the discriminate against us larger sized individuals. When the Average size american is getting closer to my heft then toward the heroin look, these companies to start to make clothing for us and allow us to work for them.

Who's with me? Class action?

I'm pretty sure you're joking, and I really hope that you are.

But anyway, it comes down to this: FUBU sells an image. People--predominately blacks--buy into that image. They pay money to have that look. That doesn't mean that Joe Whitey from the suburbs can't buy FUBU if that's who he is, but the predominate image is for young, black men. If young, black men don't buy into it, the company dies. Thus, FUBU would not hire Joe Whitey to REPRESENT that company because it would compromise the entire foundation (looking cool, being black) on which the company thrives. If a group of black guys goes into the store looking at the latest gear and they see Joe Whitey not only wearing it, but SELLING it to them, representing the image the company puts out, FUBU may very well have just lost a sale. Joe Whitey makes the clothes "uncool" in a way because he represents the store--and if the store is unhip, the product line becomes unhip as well, and the company dies. Or maybe being around Joe Whitey in the FUBU store just makes the customers uncomfortable because he does not fit the typical image that they have of the culture/image/FUBU, which could also very well result in lost sales.

The company has to keep up the image to survive.

[_bnkr612]

Anyone ever get approached by an employee and asked, "Are you looking for a job?"

I have, and while it's a nice compliment. I just let them know I am not interested and usually leave without buying anything. In the late 90's while in highschool I would wear there clothes as a status. Now, I don't like to wear a label unless the company is paying me to wear it. They get paid to advertise. It should work the other way around.

I'll shop anywhere that has the right fit of pants, jeans, etc...


_bnkr

[pseudobrit]

A&F does not stop anyone from purchasing their apperal (except maybe us fat people) and neither does FUBU or any other "urban wear." But would you see a white person selling their products. That gets more to the long and short of this.

I don't mean to pick on you, but this sentiment is one of many I'm seeing expressed in this thread and I think we need to clear something up.

I don't think anyone can logically fault A&F for whom they market to and with whom they choose to portray their products in advertising.

What's being faulted is their treatment of non-white employees and job applicants, which is illegal and disgustingly immoral.

[rueyeet]

i didn't read much of the thread. and i don't know the merits of the lawsuit against A&F. but one thing i feel is, there are too many people in this country who not only think they can live their live without ever being offended but that they have the right to not ever get offended.The issue isn't whether A&F's marketing offended anyone, but that they fired people from their stores for being the wrong color. They can have all the white people they want in their advertising, but there are laws against racial discrimination in hiring. Period.

As long as a salesperson of whatever ethnicity can rock the look that A&F is pimping, they should be allowed to work there--and saying that only white people can do that is just....stupid. wrongheaded. bull.

Demographic-based marketing has done more to split this country into nice little segmented consumer groups who think they should be able to never look at another viewpoint, experience, or lifestyle besides their own than politics ever could have. It seeks to bathe people in that which is like them in some way, so that it may sell them more of what it thinks they are like. It creates and constantly reinforces an underlying theme of, "if it's not just like me, I should never have to look at it."

A&F, and FUBU for that matter, are not the problem--they're a symptom.

[jxyama]

A&F, and FUBU for that matter, are not the problem--they're a symptom.

very eloquently put. well done.

[Wyvernspirit]

I don't mean to pick on you, but this sentiment is one of many I'm seeing expressed in this thread and I think we need to clear something up.

I don't think anyone can logically fault A&F for whom they market to and with whom they choose to portray their products in advertising.

What's being faulted is their treatment of non-white employees and job applicants, which is illegal and disgustingly immoral.

But its all right to discriminate against us hefties? What about the treatment of said People? ;)

By the way, i was, for the most part, joking in my last post, although I do see a problem in this country regarding those who are over weight.

[Koodauw]

i didn't read much of the thread. and i don't know the merits of the lawsuit against A&F. but one thing i feel is, there are too many people in this country who not only think they can live their live without ever being offended but that they have the right to not ever get offended.

i think some people in general need to develop thicker skin and learn to live a real life instead of being trigger happy about claiming racism or filing lawsuits.

I think as a society we often skip over many of the important details, and are "trigger happy" to make a conclusion or suggest a solution to the problem :rolleyes:

[bousozoku]

But its all right to discriminate against us hefties? What about the treatment of said People? ;)

By the way, i was, for the most part, joking in my last post, although I do see a problem in this country regarding those who are over weight.

It seems to be the last, acceptable (you know what I mean) prejudice. Unfortunately, with so many people becoming overweight, it may turn to a prejudice against thin people eventually, because they will be a minority.

[jxyama]

I think as a society we often skip over many of the important details, and are "trigger happy" to make a conclusion or suggest a solution to the problem :rolleyes:

that's probably true, including myself. (which is what you were getting at) :cool:

one minor difference is that me ranting on a forum costs minimally, while filing silly lawsuits do cause some public/private damage.

[Chip NoVaMac]

It seems to be the last, acceptable (you know what I mean) prejudice. Unfortunately, with so many people becoming overweight, it may turn to a prejudice against thin people eventually, because they will be a minority.

What is interesting is how weight is viewed historically. During "bad times", extra weight is a sign of wealth. In "good times" the opposite is true.

[pseudobrit]

But its all right to discriminate against us hefties? What about the treatment of said People? ;)

By the way, i was, for the most part, joking in my last post, although I do see a problem in this country regarding those who are over weight.

You're born black, Asian or Hispanic, not fat.*

Obesity is a choice. An employer will discriminate against you based on how you present yourself. If you show up to an office job interview with prison tattoos on your face, you think you're getting hired?

That said, I don't think many employers discriminate against the overweight.

* I realise there are a number of people who are genetically set to be overweight, but they are the exception, not the rule

[Chip NoVaMac]

You're born black, Asian or Hispanic, not fat.*

Obesity is a choice. An employer will discriminate against you based on how you present yourself. If you show up to an office job interview with prison tattoos on your face, you think you're getting hired?

That said, I don't think many employers discriminate against the overweight.

* I realise there are a number of people who are genetically set to be overweight, but they are the exception, not the rule

Sorry, but you are off base on this one. There are genetic (as you noted) and mental health aspects that lead to obesity. And I guess being homosexual is a choice also.

Discrimination for obesity happens. Just as it does for the follicle-ly challenged. And if they are hired, they face discrimination in treatment in the workplace.

[pseudobrit]

Sorry, but you are off base on this one. There are genetic (as you noted) and mental health aspects that lead to obesity. And I guess being homosexual is a choice also.

Are 30% of the population genetically predisposed (physically or mentally) to obesity?

I think alcoholics, smokers and the obese all belong in the same category.

And I'm sorry, but you can't compare faulting the obese to gay bashing. There's nothing unhealthy about being gay.

[MacAztec]

iJon and whoever cares to read

I am a non-caucasian, and without being overly sensative to the subject there is no mistaking the discrimination which takes place. If you are caucasian, maybe you just dont notice it because the discrimination doesnt happen to you?

Sure its their company, but your saying its ok to discriminate? Ok so theres 1 arab guy working at your A&F, from my understanding arkansas is strongly dominated by whites. Here in Hawaii, its very different. My girlfriend frequents the store often so i should know. There is almost never any other ethnicities working there. Obviously there is a problem with A&B if there is a lawsuit, 1 arab guy doesnt prove anything.

There still is a problem at A&B and elsewhere. Please do not support discriminating companys.

Go into a Chinese resturaunt. Tell me if you find a white girl/guy working the counter, or a Chinese person. Yeah, you might say the cooks want someone that can speak their language, but...

Maybe A&F doesn't support..."Yo, G, you want doze pants in anotha digit?"

I'm not saying all black people talk like that, but, you see where I am goign.

Anyways, its their store, I don't give a crap who they hire.

[bousozoku]

Go into a Chinese resturaunt. Tell me if you find a white girl/guy working the counter, or a Chinese person. Yeah, you might say the cooks want someone that can speak their language, but...

Maybe A&F doesn't support..."Yo, G, you want doze pants in anotha digit?"

I'm not saying all black people talk like that, but, you see where I am goign.

Anyways, its their store, I don't give a crap who they hire.

Yes, I know of a few Chinese restaurants around here who have white people at the counter. However, in the grocery stores where they sell o-sushi, they have a fake Japanese working there, just to give the appearance of proper knowledge. The Japanese steak houses also have fake Japanese working there.

[scem0]

It is kind of sick to not hire someone based on their ethnicity, gender, sexual preference, or something along that nature. However, I have mixed feelings on this.

It is their store, they have the right to decide what goes on their walls. To a certain degree it is like (prepare yourself for a horrible analogy) forcing a pizza place to put hot dogs on their walls. Except it is a lot different-er. Hmmmmm... give me some time to think up something better than that.

Pah. I can't think of anything better.

But I mostly think that it is their choice of what kind of models to choose. As long as they dont descriminate against anybody when selling the clothes or hiring for in-store service.

scem0

[pseudobrit]

Go into a Chinese resturaunt. Tell me if you find a white girl/guy working the counter, or a Chinese person. Yeah, you might say the cooks want someone that can speak their language, but...

Most Chinese restaurant around my area are run by immigrants and their families. So yeah, I'd expect all their employees to be Chinese immigrants or their kids.

Maybe A&F doesn't support..."Yo, G, you want doze pants in anotha digit?"

I'm not saying all black people talk like that, but, you see where I am goign.

Off to burn crosses?

Really, that was incredibly racist. I hear more white kids talking like that anyway.

Anyways, its their store, I don't give a crap who they hire.

Cool, so when you get passed up for a job you really wanted by a black manager who says he's looking for a black kid to fill the position you'll just smile and think, "I don't care if they won't hire whites."

I'm sure you wouldn't be upset at all.

[MacAztec]

Most Chinese restaurant around my area are run by immigrants and their families. So yeah, I'd expect all their employees to be Chinese immigrants or their kids.



Off to burn crosses?

Really, that was incredibly racist. I hear more white kids talking like that anyway.



Cool, so when you get passed up for a job you really wanted by a black manager who says he's looking for a black kid to fill the position you'll just smile and think, "I don't care if they won't hire whites."

I'm sure you wouldn't be upset at all.

I would just go and find a different job, that hires whites. It is sick, but thats the way the world works. A lawsuit is not going to change it.

Oh yeah, excuse me while I put on my white robe and go to my cult meeting, that was some stupid **** you said.

[pseudobrit]

Oh yeah, excuse me while I put on my white robe and go to my cult meeting, that was some stupid **** you said.

And that was some racist **** you said.

[carbonmotion]

Abercrombie along with American Eagle and in conjuction with MTV are perhaps among the largest social influences on suburban white kids. As an asian american college student I find that so many freshman kids are in total culture shock when they enter college because they are not used to being in an enviroment where they have to readily interact with other races. Because Abercrombie caters to white people only, they also impress upon their customers the image of the "perfect race". That only whites can live the elite life style that they are selling... granted I do buy cloth from AF, I would have to say that if at all possible, I shop at places that use a wide variety of races to model the products.

[iJon]

Sorry to bring up this thread again but I thought this was funny. Someone who browses the forums left me a nice message on my guestbook on my site, I found it amusing, I wonder if they will tell me who they are.

"Oh my... I wonder why you wouldn't agree that Abercrombie & Fitch are prejudice against minorities...I also wonder if you are a white elitist privileged American... give me a break. I have no doubt you don't donate any of your money either..."

jon