New Tiger build seeded to developers [Archive]

Windowlicker

Dec 8, 2004, 06:51 AM

I don't think it's going to ship at MWSF--which would be nearly the same time that Panther took. WWDC05 maybe?
Waiting is too hard!!!
(Plays with Exposé and relaxes.)

It definitely won't SHIP at MWSF.. At best Steve will announce it'll ship after a couple of months. I'm putting my hope on WWDC or a little before.

AmigoMac

Dec 8, 2004, 07:25 AM

No it won't be MWSF, he will announce the new PB with Panther and a free update to Tiger (Delivery time : next month), and will come after the next iMac revision, so they will screw *delivery* cost :rolleyes: (OK, I don't think they will do that with the iMacs but with the PBs), and better if they work with a good Safari speed improvement, I've been using Camino since a couple of days and can feel the difference, both work great but specially for my bank website Camino is a Ferrari on the highway... ohh, Camino deosnt' heva splelchekcer! :eek:

I don't want to do this a Camino Vs Safari thread, I'm just asking an improvement in Safari, I have had some rendering problems and apple has a feedback of that.

broken_keyboard

Dec 8, 2004, 07:37 AM

Spotlight rules... I just did a search for "elgato" and it found my EyeTV application.

I concur, it won't be ready for Jan release...

wdlove

Dec 8, 2004, 12:33 PM

Steve said that Tiger would be released in the first half of 2005. So that gives them a lot of wiggle room. I do hope that a release date will be announced at MWSF. The release timing otherwise will be very hard to pin down.

swissmann

Dec 8, 2004, 02:15 PM

Please kill the bugs. I would like to see 10.5 released when we only have 10.4.2 unlike we are now with 10.3.7 around the corner. No bugs before 10.4 initial release please.

jsw

Dec 8, 2004, 02:19 PM

Please kill the bugs. I would like to see 10.5 released when we only have 10.4.2 unlike we are now with 10.3.7 around the corner. No bugs before 10.4 initial release please.
If you enforce a no-bugs rule on an OS, you will never ship the OS. Never. Ever.

Part of that is because you can't possibly test every configuration anyone uses, and part of it is that, even on the many, many, many configurations Apple has in their labs, you can't test every possible sequence of steps in and between all apps. And ensure that one fix won't break something else.

The goal should be to ship with a reasonable number of minor bugs.

Some_Big_Spoon

Dec 8, 2004, 02:24 PM

My problem is when later builds break existing functionality, or when entire segments of the OS take a nosedive (like networking under panther). If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Please kill the bugs. I would like to see 10.5 released when we only have 10.4.2 unlike we are now with 10.3.7 around the corner. No bugs before 10.4 initial release please.

BornAgainMac

Dec 8, 2004, 02:26 PM

I predict it will ship around June of 2005. Hopefully, they will have a huge supply of G5's for people that want to buy a Mac with it pre-installed.

~Shard~

Dec 8, 2004, 02:31 PM

I agree, it definitely won't ship, nor be announced in a final state at MWSF. Jobs said it would be available in the first half of 2005, and I think he'll milk that for all it's worth. I'm expecting to see it more in a May or June timeframe, by the time it is actually finalized and then actually ships and consumers have it in their hands.

Zaty

Dec 8, 2004, 02:37 PM

It won't ship in January or February. According to TS, the list of know issues remains quite long, so Tiger doesn't seem to be ready anytime soon. Secondly, Apple wouldn't release Safari 1.3 if Tiger was around the corner. My bet still is that Tiger will be released sometime in late Spring. In the meantime, we can look forward to 10.3.7 and probably 10.3.8.

virividox

Dec 8, 2004, 02:46 PM

i wonder how much its gonna cost, i wanna see it in action for a couple of months before i plop down my cash

maya

Dec 8, 2004, 02:49 PM

Why would anyone ship a new OS when they have clearly stated 1st half of the year are we being optimistic sure however that would be unrealistic.

Glad to see they have SOME bugs fixed, hope they work at a steady pace.

swissmann

Dec 8, 2004, 02:50 PM

If you enforce a no-bugs rule on an OS, you will never ship the OS. Never. Ever.

Part of that is because you can't possibly test every configuration anyone uses, and part of it is that, even on the many, many, many configurations Apple has in their labs, you can't test every possible sequence of steps in and between all apps. And ensure that one fix won't break something else.

The goal should be to ship with a reasonable number of minor bugs.

I understand this (that's why in my original post I left room for 10.4.2) but can't they get closer to it than they are? It's like we get 10 upgrades to an upgrade and we still aren't bug free but just run out of time to fix it because we are on to a major new upgrade that will need more upgrades.

Eric_Z

Dec 8, 2004, 02:53 PM

I suppose that you still can't Crtl click on smart folders (that's in the dock, right side of the separator) to see what's "in them"?

swissmann

Dec 8, 2004, 02:55 PM

My problem is when later builds break existing functionality, or when entire segments of the OS take a nosedive (like networking under panther). If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I totally agree with this.

There are still some things in 10.2 that worked better than in 10.3. In basic things like if you are in column view and use the arrows on the keyboard to move down the list then stop and shift click somewhere on the list to select the range in the list it doesn't work. Mouse click on an item and shift click elsewhere just fine. But use the keyboard first you can't just shift click - you need to click on what you already have selected then shift click away. Little thing that bugs me often that worked fine in 10.2. Or do I have a preference set wrong or something?

mateft

Dec 8, 2004, 03:17 PM

I'm would love to see a new demo at SF. We already saw spotlight but what about the other 125 other features in Tiger!! Let us see what else you are putting into the OS. WE ALL know what the highlights are.

JGowan

Dec 8, 2004, 03:20 PM

I suppose that you still can't Crtl click on smart folders (that's in the dock, right side of the separator) to see what's "in them"???? Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you CAN do that.

Eric_Z

Dec 8, 2004, 03:26 PM

??? Unless I'm misunderstanding you, you CAN do that.

Oh if it works now then that's great! :) I was talking to somebody else that had (I assume) the former seed of Tiger, and he told me that it didn't work.

TylerL

Dec 8, 2004, 03:27 PM

psycho bob

Dec 8, 2004, 03:29 PM

I suppose that you still can't Crtl click on smart folders (that's in the dock, right side of the separator) to see what's "in them"?

Why waste time Ctrl clicking just hold down the mouse button with the cursor on the folder or drive works fine for me.

Eric_Z

Dec 8, 2004, 03:32 PM

Why waste time Ctrl clicking just hold down the mouse button with the cursor on the folder or drive works fine for me.

It's a workflow thing, I like to use shortcuts so my hand is on the keyboard anyway.

Each to his own as they say.

SiliconAddict

Dec 8, 2004, 03:37 PM

The new release solves a number of previous bugs, but fails to resolve others, including iDisk synchronization, various bugs with iLife '04 installation, several quirks related to Quartz 2D, MPEG-4 video playback, and others.

There's a drinking game in there somewhere! I know there is!! :D Hmmm.

SiliconAddict

Dec 8, 2004, 03:38 PM

Spotlight rules... I just did a search for "elgato" and it found my EyeTV application.

What? You lost it? ;)

Deestar

Dec 8, 2004, 03:43 PM

patseguin

Dec 8, 2004, 04:25 PM

I wonder if they incorporating REAL 6800 drivers yet...

MacsRgr8

Dec 8, 2004, 04:54 PM

I wonder if they incorporating REAL 6800 drivers yet...

That's a must.
The perfect demo app will be Doom 3 ofcourse. ;)

But I surely hope 10.3.7 will be significantly better than 10.3.6 concerning nVidia drivers.... :rolleyes:

BornAgainMac

Dec 8, 2004, 05:34 PM

It has fake 6800 drivers?!

rendezvouscp

Dec 8, 2004, 06:25 PM

I'd like to see Apple do a semi-public seed of Mac OS 10.4 (or really, any OS update), where anybody who wants to be an early-early adopter can download it and test out the OS in the "real world" about a month before the official release date.
Developers are one thing, but a bunch of bleeding-edge Power Users are another. So many bugs aren't found out in testlabs.
I'm sure MacFixIt and Friends would be able to pinpoint issues that could be resolved before the official release, making everybody much happier.

I know they did this with Mac OS X Public Beta, but that was for people to finally get their hands on the next generation of the Mac OS. I don't think they'd ever do it with . releases of Mac OS X, but I think they'll do it again with the next generation of the Mac OS.
-Chase

MacBandit

Dec 8, 2004, 06:43 PM

I understand this (that's why in my original post I left room for 10.4.2) but can't they get closer to it than they are? It's like we get 10 upgrades to an upgrade and we still aren't bug free but just run out of time to fix it because we are on to a major new upgrade that will need more upgrades.

The problem is that there are so many 3rd party application now thanks to the Unix underpinings that there is no way that every function of the OS can be tested against them. Also Apples OS is typically very bug free when released but it's standards are typically too tight. What happens is developers right there programs to a Windows standard (hahaha) or they just code it incorrectly. So what happens in a lot of cases is that Apple changes the way there data handling works to incorporate someones poor coding. One such instance is Garmin with their current USB GPSs. Their header lengths do not meet the USB standard but do meets Windows requirements. So from the developer emails I've read Apple is rewriting their USB handling so it's so freaking loose it will accept any header whether or not the data is valid.

patseguin

Dec 8, 2004, 08:01 PM

It has fake 6800 drivers?!

People have speculated that it is using modded 5200 drivers, thus the disappointing performance.

swissmann

Dec 9, 2004, 02:10 AM

The problem is that there are so many 3rd party application now thanks to the Unix underpinings that there is no way that every function of the OS can be tested against them. Also Apples OS is typically very bug free when released but it's standards are typically too tight. What happens is developers right there programs to a Windows standard (hahaha) or they just code it incorrectly. So what happens in a lot of cases is that Apple changes the way there data handling works to incorporate someones poor coding. One such instance is Garmin with their current USB GPSs. Their header lengths do not meet the USB standard but do meets Windows requirements. So from the developer emails I've read Apple is rewriting their USB handling so it's so freaking loose it will accept any header whether or not the data is valid.

This doesn't really sound like a good thing to me. I don't want Apple to become like another Microsoft.

MacBandit

Dec 9, 2004, 02:37 AM

This doesn't really sound like a good thing to me. I don't want Apple to become like another Microsoft.

That's probably true but the nature of the industry requires it. A big part of it is customer satisfaction. If a customer buys a piece of software and it doesn't work the first they they blame is the computer.

JFreak

Dec 9, 2004, 02:42 AM

we get 10 upgrades to an upgrade and we still aren't bug free

wrong.

we get 10 upDATES to an upGRADE and eventually become (major) bug free.

an upgrade is such a release that introduces some new architechture and an update is such a release that fixes that newly introduced technology.

JFreak

Dec 9, 2004, 02:48 AM

There are still some things in 10.2 that worked better than in 10.3.

yes. firewire, for example. there are other issues too, as you mentioned, and all this seems like apple has had two separate teams working on osx releases to get it ready (meaning up to the vision apple must have had before they started working on osx) faster; team1 releasing 10.0, 10.2 and 10.4 and team2 releasing 10.1 and 10.3 - both teams having responsibility of correcting own bugs (releasing updates) and getting to work on next major upgrade after another team has released its own work and therefore releasing another team from releasing updates. that all would make sence as apple has publicly stated that after tiger it will take a longer time for the next major osx release.

(if i have guessed right, one could assume that the tiger will be a lot better than panther, as it would according to this guess have been made with the same team that released the first-ever-osx and the jaguar.)

JFreak

Dec 9, 2004, 02:49 AM

I'd like to see Apple do a semi-public seed of Mac OS 10.4 (or really, any OS update), where anybody who wants to be an early-early adopter can download it and test out the OS in the "real world" about a month before the official release date.

where would the "wow" factor be then? steve likes spotlights, he has to surprise us every now and then ;)

JFreak

Dec 9, 2004, 02:53 AM

The fact is that Tiger hasn't even hit Beta status yet, if you look at the build number "8A323" the A stands for Alpha.

no, it doesn't. the letter represents the major darwin kernel version they are using. as they now release 'A' builds, it only means they haven't yet changed the bottom end during the project; however, that fact may as well mean that they are still in alpha stage.

i would expect 'C' builds when the tiger hits beta. it should be functionally ready by then.

(alpha means that functionality is not ready yet. beta means that functionality is ready but testing is not completed and bugs are being fixed.)

broken_keyboard

Dec 9, 2004, 06:55 AM

What? You lost it? ;)

Tehehe, no. I am just trying using Spotlight for everything to see what it's like. By everything, I mean instead of just for searches, also use it to launch apps and switch apps ala Quicksilver.

Edit: actually I think in his original Tiger demo, Steve said something about not needing the Finder any more.

ASP272

Dec 9, 2004, 07:26 AM

After announcing the future arrival of Tiger so early, Apple better start offering up some Tiger rebates with new computer purchases (as someone else in this thread noted as a possibility). Otherwise, those of us who have seen that it is coming will hold out on purchases until its arrival. Apple would be wise to just donate a copy to all computer purchasers pre-release. Plus, that would be sweet! :D

JFreak

Dec 9, 2004, 07:34 AM

nesbittedinf

Dec 9, 2004, 07:46 AM

Any screenshots?

MacBandit

Dec 9, 2004, 11:29 AM

apple will probably have the same policy as before, that is: computer purchases within 30 days of tiger release will get a free upgrade.

makes me wonder why they still distribute those coupons and you can do nothing with them... :/

Probably have a warehouse of the coupons. Nah, they probably just like the to keep their options open in case they REALLY screw up.

jared_kipe

Dec 9, 2004, 12:32 PM

If you enforce a no-bugs rule on an OS, you will never ship the OS. Never. Ever.

Part of that is because you can't possibly test every configuration anyone uses, and part of it is that, even on the many, many, many configurations Apple has in their labs, you can't test every possible sequence of steps in and between all apps. And ensure that one fix won't break something else.

The goal should be to ship with a reasonable number of minor bugs.

Apple can't test all the configurations?? What, there's only like.. 5 or 6.. ;)

wrldwzrd89

Dec 9, 2004, 12:36 PM

Apple can't test all the configurations?? What, there's only like.. 5 or 6.. ;)
That's if you only count non-BTO non-customized current Apple Hardware. Including BTO, including software, including older hardware, and including the fact that some people add all kinds of expansion cards into their PowerMacs makes the total number of combinations mind-boggling. It's that second set, not the first, that would need thorough testing.

BWhaler

Dec 9, 2004, 12:37 PM

No new features? Just bug fixes?

Could we be in beta at this point with a feature lock?

All I know is I hope to god another version of ical is still coming, Yeah, I complain constantly about it, I know, but the app sucks.

jared_kipe

Dec 9, 2004, 12:38 PM

I missed this and posted it in the software discussion.. how bad do I look now... :(

wrldwzrd89

Dec 9, 2004, 12:45 PM

I missed this and posted it in the software discussion.. how bad do I look now... :(
It's okay to be embarrassed at an accidental repost. I see it all the time here. Anyway, why hasn't Apple added new features in this build? Either Apple's gone into feature-lock mode, as a previous poster said, or Apple is waiting to get some bugs fixed that would impact new features Apple wants to introduce.

fatbarstard

Dec 9, 2004, 04:13 PM

Well I can almost wait...

The good thing about OS X has been than each major release has seen a noticeable improvement in speed and the code has become more efficeint - wonder if the trend will continue :confused:

I have noticed that the updates in 10.3 have been less stable than in 10.2 - now in 10.3.6 it is a bit of a lottery when my PB goes to sleep whether it will sleep or log itself out to the log in screen which is a bit annoying...

There is a problem in that a lot of developers are lazy with code and that Apple has to relax its standards to get more developers writing apps etc for Macs... but there is not much Apple can do about this. The only real solution would be for customers to stop buying products with lazy code but you have to be a smart programmer to spot it. :rolleyes:

Anyhoo I'd far rather have a PB running the latest OS X than some Windoze box any day

:D

mdriftmeyer

Dec 9, 2004, 04:20 PM

That would never happen. Why? Because you are looking at mature code and it would be ripe for black marketing.

I'd like to see Apple do a semi-public seed of Mac OS 10.4 (or really, any OS update), where anybody who wants to be an early-early adopter can download it and test out the OS in the "real world" about a month before the official release date.
Developers are one thing, but a bunch of bleeding-edge Power Users are another. So many bugs aren't found out in testlabs.
I'm sure MacFixIt and Friends would be able to pinpoint issues that could be resolved before the official release, making everybody much happier.

MacBandit

Dec 9, 2004, 05:08 PM

Have you tried resetting your Open Firmware and PRAM? I don't have any problems at all with our Powerbook. In fact the recent releases of OSX have been completely problem free for me.

Well I can almost wait...

The good thing about OS X has been than each major release has seen a noticeable improvement in speed and the code has become more efficeint - wonder if the trend will continue :confused:

I have noticed that the updates in 10.3 have been less stable than in 10.2 - now in 10.3.6 it is a bit of a lottery when my PB goes to sleep whether it will sleep or log itself out to the log in screen which is a bit annoying...

There is a problem in that a lot of developers are lazy with code and that Apple has to relax its standards to get more developers writing apps etc for Macs... but there is not much Apple can do about this. The only real solution would be for customers to stop buying products with lazy code but you have to be a smart programmer to spot it. :rolleyes:

Anyhoo I'd far rather have a PB running the latest OS X than some Windoze box any day

:D

BWhaler

Dec 9, 2004, 09:54 PM

I've been thinking more about the "no new features" comments...

I am hopeful that Apple has more still tucked away so they can continue to blow us away at MWSF. For example, tabs in iChat were mentioned earlier, but missing from this build.

Again, this may be wishful thinking on my part. It is more than likely that the current builds reflect Apple's thinking on functionality and we are basically in bug fixing mode give or take a tiny addition here and there--as pointed out by AppleInsider today.

But something like tabs in iChat would be a huge UI improvement, and one we know Apple has played with. So seeing something like that missing makes me think (hope?) Apple has a lot more up their sleeve.

I for one hope for a June release of Tiger. Given Apple's comments about slowing down the release cycle of OSX, I want to see as many new features in 10.4. since this is what we will be using for the next couple of years. Plus, I want Apple to take their time on quality, speed, and security.

autrefois

Dec 9, 2004, 10:51 PM

Issues that have yet to be addressed included iDisk synchronization...

Not entirely surprising, since they have yet to address iDisk synchronisation issues in Panther. Thanks goodness for Goliath.

MacBandit

Dec 10, 2004, 11:34 AM

Not entirely surprising, since they have yet to address iDisk synchronisation issues in Panther. Thanks goodness for Goliath.

What kind of iDisk synch problems are you having? I can't say that I have had any issues in the last 6 months.

swissmann

Dec 11, 2004, 10:23 PM

wrong.

we get 10 upDATES to an upGRADE and eventually become (major) bug free.

an upgrade is such a release that introduces some new architechture and an update is such a release that fixes that newly introduced technology.

Thanks for the vocabulary lesson. I guess I could just be one upgrade behind and start with the last update and then hang off for a development cycle until the next upgrade to buy the one they just stopped supporting. The problem is the lack of support not just for the OS but also for all apps tied to the OS. This means I am stuck with old software (not so bad) without support (can be a real pain) or I am with the new stuff that has lots of bugs. I am just wishing for the new stuff without so many bugs. Is that too much to wish for?

swissmann

Dec 11, 2004, 10:25 PM

That's probably true but the nature of the industry requires it. A big part of it is customer satisfaction. If a customer buys a piece of software and it doesn't work the first they they blame is the computer.

Maybe the average user who really doesn't know what's up. And true there are a lot of those type of spenders.

swissmann

Dec 11, 2004, 10:29 PM

yes. firewire, for example. there are other issues too, as you mentioned, and all this seems like apple has had two separate teams working on osx releases to get it ready (meaning up to the vision apple must have had before they started working on osx) faster; team1 releasing 10.0, 10.2 and 10.4 and team2 releasing 10.1 and 10.3 - both teams having responsibility of correcting own bugs (releasing updates) and getting to work on next major upgrade after another team has released its own work and therefore releasing another team from releasing updates. that all would make sence as apple has publicly stated that after tiger it will take a longer time for the next major osx release.

(if i have guessed right, one could assume that the tiger will be a lot better than panther, as it would according to this guess have been made with the same team that released the first-ever-osx and the jaguar.)

Your idea of 2 teams one for the even number releases and one for the odd numbers is an interesting concept. Do you have anything to substantiate it? It seems to me that the teams probably change pretty often with additional programers and the loss of some - like most other companies. I would guess there is a lot of crossover. Also does it mean that all the work that goes into 10.3 isn't incorporated into 10.4 but will be into 10.5 (which will be missing the work from 10.4). It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I am hoping that the longer time between releases results in less bugs rather than more features. Both would be nice but I would rather lean toward the bug free side. I know that the new features is what sells the product but what good are features if bugs get in the way of them?

wrldwzrd89

Dec 12, 2004, 07:26 AM

Your idea of 2 teams one for the even number releases and one for the odd numbers is an interesting concept. Do you have anything to substantiate it? It seems to me that the teams probably change pretty often with additional programers and the loss of some - like most other companies. I would guess there is a lot of crossover. Also does it mean that all the work that goes into 10.3 isn't incorporated into 10.4 but will be into 10.5 (which will be missing the work from 10.4). It doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I am hoping that the longer time between releases results in less bugs rather than more features. Both would be nice but I would rather lean toward the bug free side. I know that the new features is what sells the product but what good are features if bugs get in the way of them?
I don't know for certain if Apple has two Mac OS development teams, but if they do, this is what I would think is the case:

I can disprove the theory of "work that goes into 10.X doesn't go into 10.X+1" by pointing out that Quartz Extreme was introduced in 10.2 and is also in 10.3. This to me suggests that when it's time to switch OSes, both development teams update their base source code. If the current teams are working on 10.3 and 10.4, when they switch to 10.4 and 10.5, both teams move to 10.4 as their base. The 10.5 team periodically recieves updates to the Tiger base as they're released - for example, when 10.4.0 moves to 10.4.1, the 10.5 team updates their codebase to reflect changes in 10.4.1.

swissmann

Dec 12, 2004, 11:05 PM

I don't know for certain if Apple has two Mac OS development teams, but if they do, this is what I would think is the case:

I can disprove the theory of "work that goes into 10.X doesn't go into 10.X+1" by pointing out that Quartz Extreme was introduced in 10.2 and is also in 10.3. This to me suggests that when it's time to switch OSes, both development teams update their base source code. If the current teams are working on 10.3 and 10.4, when they switch to 10.4 and 10.5, both teams move to 10.4 as their base. The 10.5 team periodically recieves updates to the Tiger base as they're released - for example, when 10.4.0 moves to 10.4.1, the 10.5 team updates their codebase to reflect changes in 10.4.1.

Nothing against you wrldwzrd89 but I just don't agree with your theory. I really don't have any idea how the develpment teams are structured. I would guess that work on the next major upgrade doesn't begin until the last one has been released. I don't think that anyone is working on 10.5 right now. I would guess that soon after 10.4 release some developers start working on 10.5 while others work to fix the bugs in 10.4. Anyone have any insight?

wrldwzrd89

Dec 13, 2004, 05:51 AM

Nothing against you wrldwzrd89 but I just don't agree with your theory. I really don't have any idea how the develpment teams are structured. I would guess that work on the next major upgrade doesn't begin until the last one has been released. I don't think that anyone is working on 10.5 right now. I would guess that soon after 10.4 release some developers start working on 10.5 while others work to fix the bugs in 10.4. Anyone have any insight?
I agree with you 100% here. 10.5 work will not start until 10.4 is released. I guess I didn't make that very clear in my previous post. What you say is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I made the previous post.

MacBandit

Dec 13, 2004, 06:55 PM

Nothing against you wrldwzrd89 but I just don't agree with your theory. I really don't have any idea how the develpment teams are structured. I would guess that work on the next major upgrade doesn't begin until the last one has been released. I don't think that anyone is working on 10.5 right now. I would guess that soon after 10.4 release some developers start working on 10.5 while others work to fix the bugs in 10.4. Anyone have any insight?

wrldwzrd89's original post on this subject said as much. The thought was that one developement team works on 10.4 while the other works on intermediate updates to the previous point release. When the 10.4 is released those developing 10.4 take on the role of debugging and releasing intermediate updates while the other team takes on the role of developing the next point release.

Catfish_Man

Dec 14, 2004, 03:43 PM

The fact is that Tiger hasn't even hit Beta status yet, if you look at the build number "8A323" the A stands for Alpha. I wouldn't expect Tiger to come out for at least another 3-5 months based on panther and puma development timesframes.

:)

GAH! Why do people keep saying this? It's not true. 10.3.6 is an R build, some other releases have been D ones, the letter refers to the branch of the code it's built from.