MLB: Offseason Moves

[jxyama]

well, i'm just gonna forget for a moment about the steroids, because it makes me sad and angry.

i'm going back to the good old yankee bashing while sox are still the champions! :D

yankees just rewarded an aging infielder with a career year for the team with the best record in baseball (coincidence?) with a two year deal.

yankees also rewarded an once washed up but miraculously resurrected his career pitcher with a three year deal.

i'm no baseball executive (duh), but no wonder yankees have a ridiculously high payroll, no depth on their roster and an aging team with most players in their declining phase of their career... womack had a career year in every sense - and it wasn't that good. he's not worth two years at $2 mil per. can you imagine paying a 36 year old womack $2 mil? wright resurrected his career, no doubt partly because of the magician leo mazzone (see neagle, hampton, etc.), which may or may not be a real resurrection. handing him 3 years at $7 mil per is a really risky move. out of 8 years he's been in the majors, he's pitched more than 100 innings just three times. given the state of yankees bullpen, why do they need a starter that is a huge gamble to pitch even 100 innings? i guess compared to brown and vazquez, $7 mil per year isn't that much, eh?

yankee fans: please commence the sox's offseason move bashing! :D

[gwuMACaddict]

the yankees' moves are ridiculous... frantic attemps to put together a team to win next year...

[Koodauw]

yankee fans: please commence the sox's offseason move bashing! :D

And I will.

Actually hang on a sec, I didnt hear about these signings, let me go read about em.

Yeah ok those signings suck. No body wants tony Womack, and you think Wright is gonna be able to pitch in NYC? I'm leaning towards no.

Anyways, the Yanks will make a run at Beltran, and make an offer to Pavano. They may try again for Johnson, but Arizona is such a horribly run franchise who knows what will happen.

Giambi will and should be gone. Hopefull Olerude will be interesting in staying.

As for the Bo Sox Singings.. Give Pedro and Jason what they want! They just won you a world series for crying out loud. Pay the men some money.

[Deefuzz]

No body wants tony Womack

Are you serious?

Tony Womack was a huge asset for the Cardinals last season, it's a shame he wont be back. I'm sure you will be singing a different tune when you actually see him in action.

[Koodauw]

Are you serious?

Tony Womack was a huge asset for the Cardinals last season, it's a shame he wont be back. I'm sure you will be singing a different tune when you actually see him in action.

Could be. I thought Cairo did a very good job last year though. I guess I always disliked Womack form his Pirate days.

[Deefuzz]

Could be. I thought Cairo did a very good job last year though. I guess I always disliked Womack form his Pirate days.

Well I will agree that Cairo was great as well.

I guess being a Cardinal fan I show somewhat of a bias. But at least he is now on my favorite AL team, treat him right!! :D

[jxyama]

womack is vastly overrated for the simple reason he's really, really fast. whenever he beats out an infield blooper or steals a base, people remember that and forget the fact he does neither very often.

his career OBP is .319 (.349 last year), neither of which is anything to get excited about for a leadoff hitter. he also has no power. and unlike someone like ichiro, who has no power either, womack never hit better than .307 or drawn more than 52 walks a season, making it highly unlikely that his OBP will improve.

womack isn't the basestealer he once was either. surely, the game has changed, but when he was stealing 50+ while getting caught less than 10 times with pittsburgh, that was an asset. he stole 26 and got caught 5 times last year, a very good percentage. but it's not as significant considering he has trouble getting on base to begin with.

miguel cairo has a year playing in NYC already, has similar stats, hitting and fielding, as womack, probably would have costed about the same, but is 4 years younger. :rolleyes:

yanks are also not gonna get away with giambi. at least i hope so. it was their reckless signing and i think they should be held responsible for it. trying to terminate it because of steroids is pretty low class. if he was hitting 50 HRs and scoring 140 RBIs, they would have defended him. just because now they realize they made a huge mistake in signing him to such a big deal, they want to use steroids as an excuse to get rid of him.

[aloofman]

well, i'm just gonna forget for a moment about the steroids, because it makes me sad and angry.

i'm going back to the good old yankee bashing while sox are still the champions! :D

yankees just rewarded an aging infielder with a career year for the team with the best record in baseball (coincidence?) with a two year deal.

yankees also rewarded an once washed up but miraculously resurrected his career pitcher with a three year deal.

i'm no baseball executive (duh), but no wonder yankees have a ridiculously high payroll, no depth on their roster and an aging team with most players in their declining phase of their career... womack had a career year in every sense - and it wasn't that good. he's not worth two years at $2 mil per. can you imagine paying a 36 year old womack $2 mil? wright resurrected his career, no doubt partly because of the magician leo mazzone (see neagle, hampton, etc.), which may or may not be a real resurrection. handing him 3 years at $7 mil per is a really risky move. out of 8 years he's been in the majors, he's pitched more than 100 innings just three times. given the state of yankees bullpen, why do they need a starter that is a huge gamble to pitch even 100 innings? i guess compared to brown and vazquez, $7 mil per year isn't that much, eh?

yankee fans: please commence the sox's offseason move bashing! :D


The most interesting baseball quote I've heard the last few months was Jeter being asked how the current Yankees were different than their last title team in 2000. He said it's a completely different team and shook his head. Sounds like a guy who knows this "buy a few annual mercenaries" method will yield diminishing returns. It could still buy a championship, but it takes a lot more money that way.

As a Dodger fan, I've been frustrated the last several weeks by their lack of progress. The rotation is paper-thin, Meltdown Bradley is a real headache, and Ricky Ledee ain't the answer. I console myself knowing that Home DePo is a pretty smart guy and would rather make no moves at all than a bad move. And there's the fact that the insane contracts of Darren Dreifort and Shawn Green will finally end a year from now, freeing up a lot more money. That makes me feel good about the future, but doesn't help that much now.

I hear that Steve Finley is being offered ridiculous money from other teams, so he won't be back. I was intrigued by the idea of signing Varitek, but he costs too much now. Supposedly the Dodgers are still in the running for Randy Johnson, but I kind of doubt that Arizona will deal more players to us. And they are allegedly in on the Beltran sweepstakes, but DePo doesn't seem spend-happy enough to compete with the Yankees.

I'm very interested to see what Bonds does this year. One the one hand, he's proven in the past that he is very good at ignoring criticism and channeling his energy into hitting, so all this turmoil may just motivate him. But if he has to get off the juice, his offense could tail off. Of course, that could happen anyway, since age has to catch up with him eventually. Anything that hurts the Giants is fine with me!

[jxyama]

As a Dodger fan, I've been frustrated the last several weeks by their lack of progress. The rotation is paper-thin, Meltdown Bradley is a real headache, and Ricky Ledee ain't the answer. I console myself knowing that Home DePo is a pretty smart guy and would rather make no moves at all than a bad move. And there's the fact that the insane contracts of Darren Dreifort and Shawn Green will finally end a year from now, freeing up a lot more money. That makes me feel good about the future, but doesn't help that much now.

i hear ya and i think your faith in depo is a pretty good one. he's a smart guy and knows what he's doing, just like theo in boston. i think LA will be quite good for a long time.

dreifort is probably one of the biggest busts ever. green actually was pretty good for a few years, but deifort... nothing but trouble. and guess what? yanks got about 4 or 5 players on their roster with similar under-achievement and huge salaries. :D

[Koodauw]

The most interesting baseball quote I've heard the last few months was Jeter being asked how the current Yankees were different than their last title team in 2000. He said it's a completely different team and shook his head. Sounds like a guy who knows this "buy a few annual mercenaries" method will yield diminishing returns. It could still buy a championship, but it takes a lot more money that way.

I dont think anyone dissagrees with that. The group from 96-2001 was a solid group of players that had worked together for sometime, and had learned how to play "Yankee Baseball"

But George is in a tough position right now. he has Nothing in the farm system, so his only option is to go out and Spend big dollars. Hes also over bearing. Brian Cashman was the engineer of that great run of championships, and yet he is the only GM in the league who doesnt have finaly say over the deals.

But you are correct, this team is nothing like the teams when The Yankees were making their string of WS.

[IJ Reilly]

i hear ya and i think your faith in depo is a pretty good one. he's a smart guy and knows what he's doing, just like theo in boston. i think LA will be quite good for a long time.

dreifort is probably one of the biggest busts ever. green actually was pretty good for a few years, but deifort... nothing but trouble. and guess what? yanks got about 4 or 5 players on their roster with similar under-achievement and huge salaries. :D

I just read this morning that Finley was not offered arbitration by the Dodgers, so he won't be back. He evidently wanted a three-year contract, which I'd be surprised a guy his age would get from anyone. Even more disappointing was the Dodgers not offering arbitration to Jose Lima. The fans really learned to love that guy, and for good reason. The clubhouse just won't be the same without him. They've got to get Beltre signed now and I have to wonder if they're going to be willing to part with the big bucks he'll demand.

[emw]

I was surprised that the Cubs are holding onto Garciapara, given all of the trade talk. I also think they'll be stuck with Sammy next year, too bad for them.

Not a Cubs fan, but impossible to ignore them living in Chicago...

[jxyama]

phillies just gave lieber the same deal as the one yankees gave wright. so maybe wright's deal isn't as ridiculous or both phillies and yanks are out of their minds.

(probably the latter... since when does a recovering 35 year old pitcher receives a three year offer?)

lieber was recovering from an injury, recovery from which is more predictable than one from an early career meltdown suffered by wright. in any case, wright is younger, so perhaps he has slightly higher ceiling...

[jasylonian]

As much as I hate the Yankees, I think they've finally figured it out. It looks as if they never want to worry about pitching again by signing Wright, Milton, and Pavano. Now that the Yankee's farm system (read Expos) has dried up, it looks like they have found new sources for young arms. Javier Vazquez had a flukey bad year under the lights of Yankee Stadium and I don't care what anybody says because I still think he is a silly good pitcher. The Red Sox have done a whole lot of nothing, so there's not a lot of room for me to make fun of them, especially after the whole winning the World Series thing. All I've got to say about Boston is, "Nomar loves Chicago!" I'm first and foremost an A's fan, but the Cubs are more interesting in the offseason because they do things. If Hudson gets moved, I may weep openly. It's rather upsetting being an A's fan because all the players you actually care about keep leaving. From here on out, I'm just rooting for Eric Byrnes. He isn't going anywhere.

[aloofman]

Brian Cashman was the engineer of that great run of championships, and yet he is the only GM in the league who doesnt have finaly say over the deals.

Team owners always have the final say over player transactions. Steinbrenner is unique in that he often acts as his own GM too.

[aloofman]

I just read this morning that Finley was not offered arbitration by the Dodgers, so he won't be back. He evidently wanted a three-year contract, which I'd be surprised a guy his age would get from anyone. Even more disappointing was the Dodgers not offering arbitration to Jose Lima. The fans really learned to love that guy, and for good reason. The clubhouse just won't be the same without him. They've got to get Beltre signed now and I have to wonder if they're going to be willing to part with the big bucks he'll demand.

I think both of these moves are understandable. Finley had a very good season, but is a major injury risk because of his age. DePodesta has made clear that he will not take on the risks that the previous administration did on long-term contracts for players that could miss a lot of time. Although Finley seems to be in great shape and it seems like we're always saying that this will be his 'last good year.'

As for Lima, although he's popular, his record is much better than his performance would suggest. He allowed a lot more baserunners than his ERA would suggest, which implies that he was more lucky than good. (Not including that playoff start where he really dominated St. Louis.) Lima is older and wants a big raise. It's more likely that he will revert to the form that put him in the minors, rather than have an ERA of 4.00 or less again. Plus, some of his teammates might worry about getting herpes. :D He is a very entertaining guy though.

[Laslo Panaflex]

(Not including that playoff start where he really dominated St. Louis.)

I was at that game, it was that most exciting game I have ever been to. I don't think that I sat down in my seat once, and there was constant cheering. Good times. :D

[djbahdow01]

Giambi will and should be gone. Hopefull Olerude will be interesting in staying.
.

Olerud won't be going back to the Yanks as he wasn't offered arbitration therfore cutting ties with the Yanks. They wouldn't be able to sign him till May 1st, meaning partly into the season.

As for the Sox just ready they offered arbitration to the few they needed to and look like they are signing Matt Mantei to a contract to setup for foulke.

[jasylonian]

As for the Sox just ready they offered arbitration to the few they needed to and look like they are signing Matt Mantei to a contract to setup for foulke.

how are his fingernails?

[djbahdow01]

how are his fingernails?
Whose fingernails??

[jasylonian]

mantei's. he misses games because he keeps splitting fingernails.

[jxyama]

more moves as the GM meeting takes place...

diamondbacks found some cash, i have no clue from where, and signed glaus and ortiz. i think the deals are too big/good for the players they are getting. i think they want to show the big unit how they are serious about winning, but overpaying two (mostly) overrated players probably isn't the way to go. they will run out of money (they already were before these deals) and turn into the 49er's of MLB...

boston got wells and yanks are about to sign pavano. wells is definitely a gamble, but it's only a one year deal, so i think it my be ok. there's a lot of talk about him fitting in well in the clubhouse - i'm not so sure. there are some strange guys in the boston clubhouse, but i feel like wells is just a maniac for his own sake. i have no clue how he'll fit in. boston looks likey they overpaid for him (esp. in the light of pavano signing, see below) but one year deals won't have lasting consequences, so that's good.

yanks getting pavano is a great deal, at less than $10 mil. per year for four years. pavano is more of a sure deal for yanks than wright. his numbers have been getting better and better the last few years and he looks to be coming into his prime. however, the same thing was said about vazquez last winter too... if yankees get milton, as rumored, their rotation will once again be very, very good on paper. their bullpen, however, hasn't gotten much better, though.

since sox made it fairly clear they aren't interested in lowe, pavano signing basically means pedro is coming back. he probably realizes that sox is the place to stay, but wanted to fish around for better deals. unless he wants to be a met (unlikely, given what he said about wanting to remain a sox and also, their team strengths), he pretty much knows sox is now the only option left.

sox is also looking at renteria. i don't see much difference between cabrera and renteria, so paying a lot more for renteria may not be a great idea. (renteria is a better offensive player, but given sox's firepower in power positions, a power SS isn't really necessary?) however, if varitek leaves, sox will probably need renteria. it would be ironic for sox to sign the last player to make an out that delivered the world series to the sox...

i'm also curious how mientkiewicz will be used. kapler is gone, so it's conceivable to switch between him and millar at 1B and then nixon and millar in the RF. i don't think mientkiewicz will be willing to be a defensive backup forever. he was a #3 hitter in minnesota, afterall...

[Sun Baked]

diamondbacks found some cash, i have no clue from where, and signed glaus and ortiz.They got rid of Mantei, plus the money they didn't spend in bonus payments last year. ;)

[saabmp3]

boston got wells and yanks are about to sign pavano. wells is definitely a gamble, but it's only a one year deal, so i think it my be ok. there's a lot of talk about him fitting in well in the clubhouse - i'm not so sure. there are some strange guys in the boston clubhouse, but i feel like wells is just a maniac for his own sake. i have no clue how he'll fit in. boston looks likey they overpaid for him (esp. in the light of pavano signing, see below) but one year deals won't have lasting consequences, so that's good.

yanks getting pavano is a great deal, at less than $10 mil. per year for four years. pavano is more of a sure deal for yanks than wright. his numbers have been getting better and better the last few years and he looks to be coming into his prime. however, the same thing was said about vazquez last winter too... if yankees get milton, as rumored, their rotation will once again be very, very good on paper. their bullpen, however, hasn't gotten much better, though.

since sox made it fairly clear they aren't interested in lowe, pavano signing basically means pedro is coming back. he probably realizes that sox is the place to stay, but wanted to fish around for better deals. unless he wants to be a met (unlikely, given what he said about wanting to remain a sox and also, their team strengths), he pretty much knows sox is now the only option left.

sox is also looking at renteria. i don't see much difference between cabrera and renteria, so paying a lot more for renteria may not be a great idea. (renteria is a better offensive player, but given sox's firepower in power positions, a power SS isn't really necessary?) however, if varitek leaves, sox will probably need renteria. it would be ironic for sox to sign the last player to make an out that delivered the world series to the sox...

i'm also curious how mientkiewicz will be used. kapler is gone, so it's conceivable to switch between him and millar at 1B and then nixon and millar in the RF. i don't think mientkiewicz will be willing to be a defensive backup forever. he was a #3 hitter in minnesota, afterall...

Mientkewicz (is that how you spell it??) was brought to the team to back up defense, not the offense. Don't evpect him to take a full time job, maybe a 50/50 split at best.

When I saw that Pavano went to the yanks, my heart dropped. He was really promising and I'm sick of seeing these guys go to the yanks and end up killing us. I love Pedro, but we need some fountain of youth in our rotation. They're going to start growing grey hair soon.

I trust Theo in the rest. I just really wish Schilling could have convinced Pavano to come to us. I'm sure we could have payed him the same.

BEN

[jasylonian]

dodgers picked up tim hudson from the a's for edwin jackson and antonio perez. good trade for the dodgers; unfortunate, but ultimately good trade for the a's as well.

the d-backs have a new ownership group which has been fund-raising in the community and apparently has picked up gobs of cash, which explains their recent spending spree. if i can find the link to the article, i'll post it.

the cubs keeping nomar was a great move for the cubs, because they keep him for $8m unless he has a studly, dependable season and first crack at signing him to a long term contract next offseason if he's healthy. meanwhile, sosa is still a clubhouse cancer, but possibly one that might go back to hitting 40 hr's in a season if he stops being a headcase (watch how far he stands off the plate).

this offseason player movement watching is addictive. i need to stop. i literally spent two hours refreshing the same screen every 2 minutes when i heard that huddy was moved. so much for my final papers.

edit: here's the link: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1943741

[quagmire]

I haven't heard much with the news about Pedro and Veritech contract signing so I think they are still free agents? I think Pedro might go were the money lies. Veritech might stay with the Sox. Please excuse my spelling of the Sox catcher.

[jxyama]

i think varitek is asking for too much. at this moment, i'd put the chance of pedro coming back higher than varitek's. pedro knows that the boston management will not extend beyond what they offered already - and it's a solid offer. after this season, i imagine most bostonians will agree that paying pedro more than schilling isn't ideal and if pedro leaves for more money, i think bostonians will side with the management and will understand why they didn't pay more...

varitek is a very important player for sox, but no catcher who's turning 33 deserves a 5 year deal with no trade clause. way too risky. talk about hand-cuffing the future viability of a team, such a deal would do it...

[jxyama]

crap!!! :eek: sox's deal for wells is for two years!! he's 42... theo better know something we don't...

[aloofman]

yanks getting pavano is a great deal, at less than $10 mil. per year for four years. pavano is more of a sure deal for yanks than wright. his numbers have been getting better and better the last few years and he looks to be coming into his prime. however, the same thing was said about vazquez last winter too... if yankees get milton, as rumored, their rotation will once again be very, very good on paper. their bullpen, however, hasn't gotten much better, though.

I think it's only good in the sense that it's a seller's market and the Yankees are desperate for starting pitching. For all their riches, the Yankees have backed themselves into a corner in which they have to overpay for free agents. Everyone knows their farm system has dried up and that they have the money. I don't see much evidence that Pavano is much better than Vasquez. On the other hand, they are the Yankees, and their bad luck with pitchers last year might mean they will have more good luck this year. Probably best not to count them out.

[aloofman]

dodgers picked up tim hudson from the a's for edwin jackson and antonio perez. good trade for the dodgers; unfortunate, but ultimately good trade for the a's as well.

the d-backs have a new ownership group which has been fund-raising in the community and apparently has picked up gobs of cash, which explains their recent spending spree. if i can find the link to the article, i'll post it.

this offseason player movement watching is addictive. i need to stop. i literally spent two hours refreshing the same screen every 2 minutes when i heard that huddy was moved. so much for my final papers.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1943741

The Hudson-to-L.A. deal is not done as of 1pm Pacific time Monday. Both sides claim there have been discussions but no formal offer.

The D'backs article you're thinking of might have been by John Donovan on SI's site:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/john_donovan/diamondbacks.signings/index.html

I know what you mean about the Hot Stove frenzy. I've been waiting days for this Hudson deal to go down and it drives me crazy that Scott Boras is going to stretch out the Beltre sweepstakes for weeks more. At some point you just want to know who the heck is going to play for your team.

[aloofman]

i think varitek is asking for too much. at this moment, i'd put the chance of pedro coming back higher than varitek's. pedro knows that the boston management will not extend beyond what they offered already - and it's a solid offer. after this season, i imagine most bostonians will agree that paying pedro more than schilling isn't ideal and if pedro leaves for more money, i think bostonians will side with the management and will understand why they didn't pay more...

varitek is a very important player for sox, but no catcher who's turning 33 deserves a 5 year deal with no trade clause. way too risky. talk about hand-cuffing the future viability of a team, such a deal would do it...

I agree about the Varitek proposal. He's right at the age when catchers usually start a long decline in production. A slight drop-off in 2005 would still make him a fine catcher, but three years from now? For eight digits per? That would be bad news.

Red Sox fans know as well as anyone that Pedro is not the pitcher he once was, but he's still better than most and he's a known quantity. On the other hand, there was another Boston pitcher who seemed to be on the decline when Boston let him go: Roger Clemens. I saw an amazing stat on an old SI column months ago (Verducci maybe) saying that in terms of winning percentage and innings pitched, Clemens' post-Boston career has been as good as Pedro Martinez's entire major league career. That's pretty mind-boggling.

[jxyama]

i think boras is gonna blow it with two of his free agents, beltre and beltran. too many executives are starting to figure out that it's not worth their time to play along with boras' "outbid yourself" game and the uncertain roster.

angels said the heck with beltran and signed finley. other than cubs, which must first off load sosa, houston and yankees are the only teams left with serious interest in beltran. and none of them will give beltran anything near $200 mil/10 years - a "starting point" according to boras.

after texas outbid itself for a-rod at $25 mil per, i think management wised up.

astros reportedly offered $70 mil for 5 years for beltran, and that's about right. beltran, for all he's done in the post season, is not an incredible player. he's a great player. but not $20 a year great, i think. not a 10 year contract great either. he's 28. a-rod was in his mid-20s when he became a free agent.

too bad because boras wants to play games but players he represend probably don't.

of course, it only takes one idiot owner... :p

[MacNut]

Looks like Pedro might become a Met. 4 years 16 mil a year.

[aloofman]

after texas outbid itself for a-rod at $25 mil per, i think management wised up.

Since they didn't learn when Boras did it to the Dodgers with the Kevin Brown contract, why should they learn from the A-Rod deal? :rolleyes:

It's amazing to me that the owners' insistence on getting a salary cap is really an attempt to get the players to help discipline the owners. Save us from ourselves! For a great read on the subject, I recommend Lords of the Realm by John Helyar. It includes Charlie Finley's rants -- ignored by the other owners at the time -- that ALL players should be free agents every year because that would increase the supply of impact players on the market and hold their salaries down. He was a crackpot, but he was apparently the only one of them with a feel for economics.

By the way, the trade of Brown to the Bronx for Weaver and Brazoban is the best I can remember by the Dodgers in a long time. Which is a commentary on both Brown and the Dodgers. :D

[jxyama]

personally, i like the japanese system... in japan, players are tied to a team until free agency (or non-tendered), but the salary is negotiated each year. it's accepted that if a player has a lousy year, his salary would go down and the opposite if he plays well... (and it's not as simple as i make it out to be above - if you were injured and such, those things are taken into consideration.)

hmm, having your salary tied to your performance... what a concept!

[Koodauw]

hmm, having your salary tied to your performance... what a concept!

Its a good conept, but I don't know if it would work in the the American mindset, esp with the dilicate ego of most players. There is something to be said for those "locker room leaders" who are value for their presence, not just the numbers.

As for signings, Wells will be a good addition. At the wage they're paying him though, i am not real sure. (its hard for me to judge the concepts of salaries here, forgive me, I am used to NY baseball.)

I hope Pedro returns the the Sox. I would be rather disburbing to see him end his carrier with the Mets. His legend really is at Fenway. Varitek is a good signing too. You dont want to dismantle your team.

Very excited about Pavano, coming to NYC. Hopefully he can pitch well, and Javy can too.

[jxyama]

pedro's a goner and the fact reports like this (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=1945747) are coming out means most sox fans will side with the management and not miss him leaving. it's too bad - i didn't want him to do what a-rod did a few years ago (i.e. saying "he wanted to play for a winner and that money wasn't everything" and then signing for nothing but the money.), but i guess he did, going back and forth between mets and sox to drive up his price.

i have nothing against players taking the money - i do have problems with players saying one thing as a lip-service to the fans and then doing the complete opposite. the sox tried hard enough and if pedro thinks fans will think they didn't, he's wrong. it didn't have to end like this and no matter what he ends up doing (even if he goes 4 full years without problems), the fact his sox legacy is tarnished is no one's fault but his.

sox now has a big hole in the starting rotation. theo better get creative and pry hudson away from the dodgers. that'll be a steal - hudson will become almost the pedro of old. :D

[aloofman]

personally, i like the japanese system... in japan, players are tied to a team until free agency (or non-tendered), but the salary is negotiated each year. it's accepted that if a player has a lousy year, his salary would go down and the opposite if he plays well... (and it's not as simple as i make it out to be above - if you were injured and such, those things are taken into consideration.)

hmm, having your salary tied to your performance... what a concept!

That's pretty much what baseball has for the first three years of a player's career. Then they're eligible for arbitration, which does take into account injuries, performance, age, position, etc. And even after that, players are tied to their team until after their sixth year (free agency) unless they are outright released. The main problem with arbitration is that the arbitrator can only decide between the team's offer and the player's request. Most players and owners would like the arbitrator to have the option of choosing a salary in the middle.

I don't have a problem with players getting as much money as they can through free agency. Most players aren't good enough to command really huge money anyway or they don't even last that long. What I really don't like is players demanding to be traded while still under contract. This violates the agreement between the player and the team. If you don't know how good the team will be in four years, then sign a shorter contract.

[MacNut]

David Wells will backfire with the Red Sox, yes he can still pitch if he is healthy but is he still healthy? Remember the World Series when his back went out and he blew a championship for the Yankees.

[MacNut]

Interesting that Pedro doesn't want to take an MRI on his shoulder as a part of his Mets physical.

[jxyama]

David Wells will backfire with the Red Sox, yes he can still pitch if he is healthy but is he still healthy? Remember the World Series when his back went out and he blew a championship for the Yankees.

yeah, i agree with you. i'd put chances of either pedro or wells going their entire contract without injuries next to nothing.

[quagmire]

Another note about the Sox pithcers is that they seem to be destroying their world series pitching team. With only Schilling and Wakefield really being the only 2 starters for the Sox(excluding Wells). I just read today that Lowe is also a free agent and is up for grabs. I smell the curse coming back or the Sox just suck and there was no curse.

[jxyama]

in a way, it was a good thing sox won the series this year because their starting rotation was quickly becoming too old and obsolete - and this fact would have remained even if sox had retained all of their free agent pitchers.

pedro is very close to being used up. i'm glad sox didn't give him four years. as great as he has been, his time is up. i realize the same thing was said about clemens... but in retrospect, rocket's resurrection depended heavily on him developing an unbelievably effective split. i don't see pedro resurrecting himself - except by becoming a complete control pitcher, like maddux, relying on his curve and changeup, which are still excellent. i'm not sure if his ego will permit that or if he'll be able to tolerate NY fans becoming impatient with him for not being the power pitcher he used to be.

lowe miraculously saved himself with a brilliant postseason. but what people are forgetting is that he has been in a pretty steady decline in effectiveness since he became a starter two three seasons ago. his postseason performance was a great parting gift he gave the sox, but i seriously doubt sox will miss him from the performance (in relative to the $$$) point of view.

sox will be a hitting team, once again, with a relatively modest starting lineup, especially compared to the yankees. unless sox can get hudson, i have to admit yankees will once again be the favorite, even without randy johnson...

[jxyama]

sox got renteria... this will enable sox to use their uber-prospect SS as a trade chip for a starter...

also, varitek is quickly losing his market... giants got matheny. and pierzinski is no varitek, but still a very capable (and much cheaper) alternative. there aren't too many teams looking for a catcher to begin with, so... i don't think sox will go more than 4 years at $9 mil, which is quite generous, imo...

[Sun Baked]

Here is the Diamondback expanation of where the money is coming from...

Payroll cuts aid D-Backs signings (http://www.azcentral.com/sports/diamondbacks/articles/1214dbmoney1214.html)

There is a year-end 2004 salary thingie on there somewhere, and they basically did dump everyone but Johnson and Gonzo -- Mantei was the last of the "expensive" players they couldn't get rid of.

[jxyama]

busy, busy day...

soon to be my adopted home town team mariners took a huge gamble in spending over $110 mil. to get a respectable power hitter recovering from injury and a young hitter who may or may not have shown the sign of fulfilling his incredible potential last year.

one good thing about beltre is that he played in dodger stadium - safeco won't be much worse, in terms of hurting his power numbers.

sexson is just a gamble, though he wants to be in seattle, so that's a plus.

and they are both fairly young...

atlanta just got hudson. they didn't give up giles, presumably because a's already dealt for another second baseman.

you heard it here first: leo mazzone + tim hudson + walk year = 2005 NL cy young.

[wdlove]

Well Pedro Martinez is now officially with the NY Mets. Passed his physical yesterday. Now he gets $53 million fro a 4 year contract. Got to show off at a news conference today in NY. Pedro complained that the Red Sox weren't willing to support him, didn't think that he should have to wait.

[jasylonian]

you heard it here first: leo mazzone + tim hudson + walk year = 2005 NL cy young.

this is a sad day in baseball. stupid cheap owners. i seriously felt like i got kicked in the sleigh bells after this trade.

[Koodauw]

Rumor has the Big Unit going to NYC, Vasquez to the Dodgers with prospects, and Green and Penny head to the D'Backs.

Good trade for everyone it seems. I was really excited about Vasquez, but he never really panned out in NY, although he never was given a real chance. Big Preasure in NY. The Unit will be able to handle it.

[Sun Baked]

Rumor has the Big Unit going to NYC, Vasquez to the Dodgers with prospects, and Green and Penny head to the D'Backs.

Good trade for everyone it seems. I was really excited about Vasquez, but he never really panned out in NY, although he never was given a real chance. Big Preasure in NY. The Unit will be able to handle it.Looks like a real strong rumor right now, but many of the so-called "rumors" behind Randy will only be completed when the physicals are done and the announcement made.

He didn't look happy last year, even though he felt better than he has in years (the knee problem) even though many expected the surgery to be career ending when they announced what they did.

[jxyama]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/baseball/mlb/12/17/pedro.redsox.ap/index.html?cnn=yes

pedro didn't need to do this... :(

[QCassidy352]

I'm not happy with this off-season as a sox fan so far. Wright and Womack seem like silly moves for the Yankees, but Pavano is a big pick up and Johnson would be even more important. That would give the Yankees a very dangerous starting rotation.

Renteria is a good player, but I thought the plan was to get a stop-gap shortstop until Hanley Ramierez (Sox best prospect, a 5 tool player in the minors) was ready in '06. I like Renteria, but we might as well have kept Cabrera...
David Wells makes no sense to me. Signing a 42 year old ex-yankee with chronic health problems to a 2 year deal? I agree with the poster who said I hope Theo knows something we don't.
Pedro's departure is very sad. Boston loses yet another star a la Clemens, Vaughn, and Nomar.

As for Pedro's comments on the way out of town, I hate stories like this because it ends up being good for nobody. Maybe Pedro is right and maybe he is being a babyish jerk (I just had a long discussion with my family debating that very point) but in my mind it doesn't matter. We can never know what went on in those negotiations (how Epstein, Pedro, etc. acted) and who was "right" or "wrong" in what way. I do think, however, that it's too bad that yet another Red Sox star departs Boston in a way that leaves a terrible taste in the mouths of both that player, and the fans.

[Sun Baked]

...Arizona lead general partner Ken Kendrick said a trade had not been completed.

"There's no deal," Kendrick told MLB.com. He added that there are "multiple discussions going on at this point."

Kendrick said that after talking with Johnson's agents, it had been decided that by the end of the year a decision will be made to either trade Johnson or sign him to an extension.

"I think it's best for all concerned that we clear up the situation with Randy by the end of the year," Kendrick said...Look's like they're still trying, but it'll either happen by Jan. 1 or Randy will get a couple more years added to his contract.

This also sounds like he has a little more faith in the new ownership group and Moorad than he had before -- even though that's still not finalized yet either.

If Joe Garagiola Jr. and more of the front office had been terminated, it's doubtful it would have been this positive about him staying.

---

We can be looking forward to another year of "trade me now" rumors. :p

[Koodauw]

According to Brad Penny, the deal that would send the Big Unit to the Yanks is nearly done. I guess Penny has to go for the physical yet. Then everything should be complete.

Oh how I hope to be getting a Big Unit in Pinstripes under the Chirstmas tree this year.

(and by pinstripes I mean REAL pinstripes, not those lousy imitation ones 'zona has.)

[Koodauw]

And Clement goes to the Sox. Don't really know much about him other than his chin hair thingy.

[Chip NoVaMac]

After how MLB tried to rape the people of the DC area, I hope that the next strike for MLB leads to the death of the fat-cat owners and players.

Spoiled rich kids (both players and owners) that never learned how to play well with others IMO.

[jxyama]

And Clement goes to the Sox. Don't really know much about him other than his chin hair thingy.

based just on looks, he's gonna fit right in... :D

clement was coming into his own... he's no match for pavano, but he will eat a lot of innings and is a groundball pitcher, so that should be a better fit for fenway.

big unit in the bronx... pretty scary stuff. after a few years of letting AL hitters get away with not facing him, he's coming back. ortiz gonna have some serious problems against him...

[quagmire]

I just read on my mobile phone that Pedro is trying to get varitek on the mets. He says Pizzia(spelling?) is a good hitter and can play at 1st or 2nd instead of catcher. So the Sox might lose Varitek afterall.

[saabmp3]

I just read on my mobile phone that Pedro is trying to get varitek on the mets. He says Pizzia(spelling?) is a good hitter and can play at 1st or 2nd instead of catcher. So the Sox might lose Varitek afterall.

Hey look, Pedro's trying to tell the mets what to do already! He's an expert in their clubhouse of course, as he just put on the jersey yesterday.

Word is right now that the deal that was reported for the Big Unit is dead, the dodgers don't want to give up their last decent hitter.

BEN

[jxyama]

Hey look, Pedro's trying to tell the mets what to do already! He's an expert in their clubhouse of course, as he just put on the jersey yesterday.

Word is right now that the deal that was reported for the Big Unit is dead, the dodgers don't want to give up their last decent hitter.

BEN

NYT is apparently reporting that yankees will get two pitchers in the deal, Big Unit from Az and Kaz Ishii from LA. dodgers will get Vazquez and two minor leaguers from the yanks and another pitcher from Az. Az gets Green, Penny and two other pitchers from LA...

all this pending Big Unit and Green, both of them having a no-trade clause, approve the trade. both of them want to talk about contract extensions, i think, before they agree to the trade...

crazy, crazy deal... presumably, Ishii will be pushed to the bullpen. what a luxury for the yanks...

[quagmire]

NYT is apparently reporting that yankees will get two pitchers in the deal, Big Unit from Az and Kaz Ishii from LA. dodgers will get Vazquez and two minor leaguers from the yanks and another pitcher from Az. Az gets Green, Penny and two other pitchers from LA...

all this pending Big Unit and Green, both of them having a no-trade clause, approve the trade. both of them want to talk about contract extensions, i think, before they agree to the trade...

crazy, crazy deal... presumably, Ishii will be pushed to the bullpen. what a luxury for the yanks...

I read on my mobile phone again, that Big Unit doesn't really mind to be traded to the Yanks and he is willing to go if the deal is sealed.

EDIT: My mistake on Green. He wants to live as close to his home as possible but, he might go anyway. Also, St Louis wants to get in this trade now.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/baseball/mlb/12/17/johnson.megadeal.ap/index.html

[MacNut]

I do hope that the Yankees can get Randy Johnson, we would be unstoppable with Pavano and Johnson on the same team. I hope Schilling is ready for opening day against Randy at Yankee Stadium April 4th.

[MacNut]

Everything still hinges on the fate of Beltran, he is the big prize this off season.

[Koodauw]

Mulder has now been traded to the St Louis Cards. With so little offense in Oakland, one would think that you would want to keep the pitching intact. espicially such young pitching. But off it goes. There must of been some benefit, or the A's wouldnt be dealin.

[Koodauw]

LA is begining to piss me off. I rooted hard for the dodgers this year, and this is how they treat me? Quit holding up the deal for the big Unit. Yanks need him. So you lost Beltre, we all new it would happen. Green is done anyways, his numbers have been declining every year. NY needs the unit. Its been 4 years since a WS for crying out loud!

[Counterfit]

I hope Schilling is ready for opening day against Randy at Yankee Stadium April 4th. That would be interesting. the co-MVPs of the 2001 World Series pitching against each other on opening day, right after one gets his second WS ring. :D

Of course, it might not happen at all, (if the Big Unit goes somewhere else and/or Schilling's ankle isn't ready in time)

[saabmp3]

The reports are right now that Curt will not be ready for opening day. The starting line up right now is projected at Wells, Clemente, Wakefiled/Arroyo, (the last guy they got as a long term mid inning/pinch starter).

BEN

[Sun Baked]

The reports are right now that Curt will not be ready for opening day. The starting line up right now is projected at Wells, Clemente, Wakefiled/Arroyo, (the last guy they got as a long term mid inning/pinch starter).

BENA week or two ago the projection was about a month after opening day, of course we should know more until the season starts see how close he is -- probably start on the 15-day disable list.

Doubtful he'd want to undergo a few starts in the minors as part of the rehab.

Though, Randy did do 3 three minor league rehabilitation starts after the knee surgery, but we all know Curt is the king. :p

[Sun Baked]

What are the chance the year's big trade can still happen after it has exploded?

[Koodauw]

What are the chance the year's big trade can still happen after it has exploded?

Soon George will just get pissed enough, and say screw it. He'll transfer his interest in the Yankees over to a close friend, Buy the debt ridden franchise that is the D'Backs, insert himself as GM, Trade Johnson to the Yanks, and then sell the team. Maybe he'll even get Bud to contract the team. Johnson ends up in pinstripes.

[Kwyjibo]

Soon George will just get pissed enough, and say screw it. He'll transfer his interest in the Yankees over to a close friend, Buy the debt ridden franchise that is the D'Backs, insert himself as GM, Trade Johnson to the Yanks, and then sell the team. Maybe he'll even get Bud to contract the team. Johnson ends up in pinstripes.

i thought the dbacks just got new owners ... ? and they can't cotnract for a season or two more ...

[saabmp3]

Well, MLB.com (get the link from fark) is reporting that the dodgers are out of the deal. Even tho it was on the AP this morning that the deal was on seligs desk (and I was so sad), it's not true. Randy is not going to the yankee's yet. I guess the fact that they have NOTHING in the farm system is biting them in the ass once again. Vasquez is also refusing to go to the dodgers. Who knows why somebody would want to stay on the yankees.

BEN

[Counterfit]

BWAAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA





*inhale*

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!! :D :D :D

[Koodauw]

Big Unit is commin to town. The messiah has arrived.

[jxyama]

Big Unit is commin to town. The messiah has arrived.

yeah, the "messiah"..? so, tell me what giambi, sheffield, a-rod, mussina, vazquez and brown were... ;)

only "messiah," right now, is schilling, who made it clear why he signed with the sox and actually delivered.

though big unit will be quite formidable - a power lefty, something yanks haven't had in quite a while...

[jasylonian]

Go A's? *sigh* :rolleyes:
Worst offseason, ever.

[Kwyjibo]

yeah, the "messiah"..? so, tell me what giambi, sheffield, a-rod, mussina, vazquez and brown were... ;)

only "messiah," right now, is schilling, who made it clear why he signed with the sox and actually delivered.

though big unit will be quite formidable - a power lefty, something yanks haven't had in quite a while...

I'm not a yankees fan, but I have to say that if you look at johnson's stats, If he throws half as well as last year for the yankee's he'll probably land a cy young. Let me see if I can dig up the stats but some of the situational things like in certain games he lost he held the team to two or less runs.

I'm glad for two things tho, rumor has it the yankees aren't as in hot for beltran as the media may protray but you never know. I'm glad all of this johnson to yankees stuff is over for a bit, its been like a year and a half now hasn't it ?

oh yeah, and lets hope the cubs muster some cash for beltran, rumor has it that they could just open their pocketbooks a bit wider and land him even with sosa for another year. Even tho i'd rather sosa be gone, he might actually improve this year with an 18 million dollar bonus insight.

[Sun Baked]

I'm not a yankees fan, but I have to say that if you look at johnson's stats, If he throws half as well as last year for the yankee's he'll probably land a cy young. Let me see if I can dig up the stats but some of the situational things like in certain games he lost he held the team to two or less runs.If he had a team that backed him up and scored some runs, he would have easily have had a decent shot at winning 30 games.

And Brandon Webb should have also ended the year with a winning season, but he also got the feet knocked out from underneath him with the lack of run support -- which made for a very sour 2nd season.

[MacNut]

Can you say Big Unit in the Bronx. Selieg O.K.'d the deal.

[aloofman]

LA is begining to piss me off. I rooted hard for the dodgers this year, and this is how they treat me? Quit holding up the deal for the big Unit. Yanks need him. So you lost Beltre, we all new it would happen. Green is done anyways, his numbers have been declining every year. NY needs the unit. Its been 4 years since a WS for crying out loud!

Only a Yankee fan would be arrogant enough to be unhappy with another team for not giving him a player his team "needs". See, you got your guy anyway and there was no reason to get your panties in a twist.

BTW, this Yankees team is developing a real '90s Mets-kind of vibe: overpaid and underperforming.

[Sun Baked]

Only a Yankee fan would be arrogant enough to be unhappy with another team for not giving him a player his team "needs". See, you got your guy anyway and there was no reason to get your panties in a twist.

BTW, this Yankees team is developing a real '90s Mets-kind of vibe: overpaid and underperforming.At least they can complain that the Unit didn't nix the deal like Green did...

At least Green doesn't kill the other trade, though Green may be one of the players without a contract this time next year if he sticks to his mark and refuses to take a pay cut.

You would think that the team he's playing for is offering to pay half his salary to unload him would make the bulb lite in his head that he is overpaid.

[MacNut]

Unit is a done deal with the Yankees as soon as he passes his physical, It also looks like the Mets are pushing hard for Beltran.

[aloofman]

At least they can complain that the Unit didn't nix the deal like Green did...

At least Green doesn't kill the other trade, though Green may be one of the players without a contract this time next year if he sticks to his mark and refuses to take a pay cut.

You would think that the team he's playing for is offering to pay half his salary to unload him would make the bulb lite in his head that he is overpaid.

I think his next contract depends greatly on how well he plays in 2005. It's not unreasonable that, since Green is not the player he was six years ago, that he shouldn't get a salary like the one he got then. But baseball has a long tradition of overpaying players that have "experience" and "leadership", but put up the same numbers as a young, raw player. Maybe these intangibles are justified sometimes, but usually I think they aren't. So it's not surprising that Green would go that route. But whether it pays off for him depends, I think, on how good he is this year. The last two seasons he's played like a guy with half a right shoulder that will never pull for power again like he did in his 40-HR seasons. That doesn't mean he can't be good again, just that he won't be making eight figures.

As a Dodger fan, I've been following this closely and several things puzzle me. Home DePo has kind of backed himself into a corner in the sense that all the Green trade rumors almost made it a self-fulfilling prophecy. Now that's the preferred move because the prospect of Green playing out the season in L.A. is becoming more and more awkward. On the other hand, does saving $8 million in salary for one season really free up enough money to get comparable pitching value? I'm not sure that it does.

I'm a big proponent of DePodesta's moves to add flexibility to the roster and free the team from long, difficult contracts. But a year from now both Green's and Dreifort's contracts will be over anyway, freeing up almost $30 milllion in salary room. I'm tempted to say that the recent makeover is enough for one offseason and to let further moves happen at the trade deadline and next winter. There have been quite a few changes, so why not see how this group plays out?

[jxyama]

slightly off topic, but how ridiculous is the name change for anaheim angels?

"los angeles angels of anaheim"?? :rolleyes:

isn't it redundant... (los angeles already means angels...) not to mention utterly stupid..?

new york yankees of bronx
new york mets of queens
florida marlins of miami
texas rangers of arlington

etc. etc.

[jxyama]

I'm not a yankees fan, but I have to say that if you look at johnson's stats, If he throws half as well as last year for the yankee's he'll probably land a cy young. Let me see if I can dig up the stats but some of the situational things like in certain games he lost he held the team to two or less runs.

oh, i don't doubt that johnson is a heck of a pitcher. my point was, "can you imagine how good the yankees will be with..." was said about giambi, sheffield, mussina, a-rod, vazquez and brown since 2001... and they've not won a single series since.

right now, yankees are nothing but bloated, expensive collection of talented players... and similarly as real madrid, expensive collection of talented players do not necessarily make the best team.

by the way, beltran is not worth $15+ mil. a year. he's good, but he's not that good. his postseason this year inflated his mystique a little, just like beckett. good, but not crazy great.

[MacNut]

slightly off topic, but how ridiculous is the name change for anaheim angels?

"los angeles angels of anaheim"?? :rolleyes:

isn't it redundant... (los angeles already means angels...) not to mention utterly stupid..?

new york yankees of bronx
new york mets of queens
florida marlins of miami
texas rangers of arlington

etc. etc.I believe the FLorida Marlins are going to be renamed the Miami Marlins
I think the Boston Red Sox of Boston has a nice ring to it. :rolleyes:

[Chip NoVaMac]

slightly off topic, but how ridiculous is the name change for anaheim angels?

"los angeles angels of anaheim"?? :rolleyes:

isn't it redundant... (los angeles already means angels...) not to mention utterly stupid..?

new york yankees of bronx
new york mets of queens
florida marlins of miami
texas rangers of arlington

etc. etc.

I agree. I wonder what was in their minds when the came up with that.

[MacNut]

I want to know how I write my scorecard now, is it LAAA

[Chip NoVaMac]

I just want to know why I just don't write a check the MBL owners directly (this coming from a DC baseball fan that is feeling raped at this point).

[jxyama]

I just want to know why I just don't write a check the MBL owners directly (this coming from a DC baseball fan that is feeling raped at this point).

i feel for you... :( when district reps vote to do something sensible for the ordinary residents, the rich MLB owners start crying... WTF??? :mad:

[Chip NoVaMac]

i feel for you... :( when district reps vote to do something sensible for the ordinary residents, the rich MLB owners start crying... WTF??? :mad:

And in the end the rich owners get their way, in one way or another.

For those that don't know the DC Nationals MLB deal is such a payoff to those that have the money. There is little parking planned at the new stadium. The City Council is looking to give away the parking rights to on street parking to a private company. If this area did not have developing business use, this might be excusable.

Add to this that MBL had an alternative site in Northern Virginia that that had none of the issues of parking or potential use of "emanate domain".

[aloofman]

slightly off topic, but how ridiculous is the name change for anaheim angels?

"los angeles angels of anaheim"?? :rolleyes:

isn't it redundant... (los angeles already means angels...) not to mention utterly stupid..?

new york yankees of bronx
new york mets of queens
florida marlins of miami
texas rangers of arlington

etc. etc.

It's been pointed out recently that this isn't exactly a new idea. Quite a few teams are named for cities near where they play for. (I'm looking at you, New Jersey Jets and Giants.) And "Los Angeles Angels" is the franchise's original name, used from 1961-1965, when they really did play within the city limits. L.A. Angels makes more sense than California Angels did. And the paper here pointed out that a local minor league baseball team changed its name to appeal to a larger geographic area a couple years ago.

And as for the "of Anaheim", that's just a legal name attached to the end to avoid liability for screwing over the city of Anaheim. The team expects people to refer to them as "Los Angeles Angels."

Regardless of whether it sounds dumb or not, I'm of the opinion that it's a bad idea. As someone who has lived and worked on the border of Los Angeles and Orange counties, I can affirm that many O.C. people don't like L.A. at all and only go there when necessary. The idea of being named after Los Angeles is revolting to them. Since the team's main fan base is in Orange County, this seems kind of suicidal to me. There ARE Angels fans in Los Angeles and other Socal suburbs, but I don't think there are enough of them to make up for the lost fans behind the Orange Curtain.

[Chip NoVaMac]

It's been pointed out recently that this isn't exactly a new idea. Quite a few teams are named for cities near where they play for. (I'm looking at you, New Jersey Jets and Giants.) And "Los Angeles Angels" is the franchise's original name, used from 1961-1965, when they really did play within the city limits. L.A. Angels makes more sense than California Angels did. And the paper here pointed out that a local minor league baseball team changed its name to appeal to a larger geographic area a couple years ago.

And as for the "of Anaheim", that's just a legal name attached to the end to avoid liability for screwing over the city of Anaheim. The team expects people to refer to them as "Los Angeles Angels."

Regardless of whether it sounds dumb or not, I'm of the opinion that it's a bad idea. As someone who has lived and worked on the border of Los Angeles and Orange counties, I can affirm that many O.C. people don't like L.A. at all and only go there when necessary. The idea of being named after Los Angeles is revolting to them. Since the team's main fan base is in Orange County, this seems kind of suicidal to me. There ARE Angels fans in Los Angeles and other Socal suburbs, but I don't think there are enough of them to make up for the lost fans behind the Orange Curtain.

I guess this ranks up with the Washington Redskins that play in Landover Maryland.....

[quagmire]

There might not be a Florida Marlins team anymore. I read that the team is talking with Las Vegas officials about a move there. I wonder what would be the name of the team if they moved. The Las Vegas Gamblers.

[Sun Baked]

Will wonders never cease...

The $16 million dollar man, opts to kill the last year of his contract and take a salary reduction.

Looks like Green will trade in his $16 million 1 year contract (contract voided) for a $30 million 3 year contract.The new contract calls for salaries of $10.5 million, $8 million and $9.5 million, and a $2 million payment in 2008. The deal also includes a mutual option for $10 million in 2008.

Green would receive a $2 million buyout if the Diamondbacks don't pick up the option. Should the Diamondbacks want to pick up the option but Green opts for free agency, the Diamondbacks wouldn't have to pay the buyout.The Diamondbacks will also be getting $10 million in the trade, but it's doubtful that LA ever expected Green to take a salary cut. ;)

[MacNut]

It looks like Beltran is very close to a deal with the Mets. 7 years $119 million with $17 mil a year, with an $11 million signing bonus.

[Kwyjibo]

well the cubs were cheap and didn't get beltran, but i'm glad that he's not playing for houston so the cubs only have to play ihm 6 times a year not like 18. The astros has a big positon to fill now, and I don't think putting biggio back there is the right play.

[aloofman]

Will wonders never cease...

The $16 million dollar man, opts to kill the last year of his contract and take a salary reduction.

Looks like Green will trade in his $16 million 1 year contract (contract voided) for a $30 million 3 year contract.The Diamondbacks will also be getting $10 million in the trade, but it's doubtful that LA ever expected Green to take a salary cut. ;)

While I like the idea of getting out from under an expensive contract, it seems like the Dodgers went out of their way to cut loose Green a year early just so they could overpay Lowe . Maybe giving Lowe (or some other pitcher) too much money was unavoidable, given the market. But I'm not sure how much we gained here. These prospects must be better than we know about. (Although, obviously, they're only prospects.)

I also wonder what the long-term plan is here. They've locked up several players for the next few years, but there's a swell of prospects moving up through the minors right now. So many, in fact, that a number of good players won't be protected in the upcoming Rule 5 draft. Teams that stock up on prospects are usually either rebuilding (which the Dodgers aren't) or planning to trade them for other players. The Dreifort Albatross will be thrown off next fall, so that frees up $13 million right there. Assuming the Dodger payroll stays the same, it looks like they have room to trade prospects for another star player who already has a big contract. Or trade prospects for several good, young major leaguers that are a few years from free agency.

Overall, I'm optimistic about the Dodgers' moves this offseason. They've gotten a bit better overall with the same payroll. Something had to be done because, even though they won the division last year (barely), they really got lucky in a lot of ways down the stretch with those last-at-bat wins. You can't depend on that happening. I've still got some concerns though. Is Choi ready to be be a regular at first? Will the high turnover cause clubhouse problems? Will Drew stay healthy? Will Meltdown Bradley stay out of jail?

Should be interesting!

:D

[Koodauw]

I Think it was a good move for the dodgers. Greens Numbers have been declining every year, and he batted something like .250 last year. 16 million a year to someone who bats that low of a percentage is a bit to swallow. ( I know there is more to a players value than just batting average, but you get the idea.) I think it is a good trade, although I would rather have Green over JD Drew even if Green has declining numbers. The loss of Beltre is the most damaging to LA. Should be interesting to see how they do next year.

Its sad to see Beltran leaving houston, he seemed to be a good fit there. The mets are a horribly run team, so its sad to see him take money of a possible championship.

[MacNut]

I don't mean to sound like a bitter Yankee fan but I think Beltran is gonna waste his talent as a Met. He did it for the money but I hope he doesn't expect the Mets to be contenders anytime soon.

[Counterfit]

I've still got some concerns though. Is Choi ready to be be a regular at first? Will the high turnover cause clubhouse problems? Will Drew stay healthy? Will Meltdown Bradley stay out of jail? Can Lowe win 20 again? ;)

[MacNut]

Im hoping Lowe can win 20 and Schilling gets injured and is out for the season, that will show the Red Sox. :D

[Counterfit]

Hey, Schilling has been out the entire off-season, what more do you want :rolleyes: :p

[Sun Baked]

Hey, Schilling has been out the entire off-season, what more do you want :rolleyes: :pI think they're complaining that the 1 month vacation at the beginning of the season teams will have because he's not around, isn't enough.

[aloofman]

Can Lowe win 20 again? ;)

Honestly, I'll just be happy if Lowe has a winning record. He's such a big gamble for that much money.

[Kwyjibo]

stupid ESPN is already talking about the yanks sox apparently schilling said yesterday , that he retracts his previosu statement and feels he might be ready to go game 1 vs randy.

[jxyama]

Honestly, I'll just be happy if Lowe has a winning record. He's such a big gamble for that much money.

i'm sure the GM did his homework, but it's an interesting choice to overpay a groundball pitcher to play at the dodger stadium... the way lowe pitches, he will not benefit from the vast size of the dodger stadium as other pitchers usually do. dodger IF will need to be extra "solid" to make sure lowe won't blow himself up.

however, i think he will benefit from switching the league. the novelty of going from a closer to a starter was wearing off in the AL. it wouldn't surprise me if he had a pretty good season this year.

[Wyvernspirit]

Unless the Dodgers have a really good Defencive team, he will strugle. I would expect no more then 17 wins (thats taking into account the "weaker" offense of the NL). If they have a good Defense (the reports I have heard says contrary) then he may get 20 if he can get over his usual biggining of the season jitters (That can last upto 6 months). If the defence is shabby look for less then double digits. "In between" defense, your looking at 10 to 17 but I would say the sweet spot is 14.

I'd say 14 wins 4.0 (+/-.5 leaning towards +) ERA

Just my two cents.

PS Don't you think there was a reason the Sox didn't even try for him, although I am not sure that was a good thing. They are spending 25+mil/3 years (8.4 per year) on Clement for a NL pitcher of unknown quality in the AL instead of Lowe at 36 mil for 4 years (9 per year). If they eaual in ability then the sox win out. Otherwise...

[jxyama]

the thing with clement is that

1) he's a bit younger
2) he's a bit cheaper
3) he's signed for a year shorter
and 4) while he's been consistently mediocre, he's been very, very consistent. lowe, otoh, has been slipping steadily ever since he became a starter few years ago. clement is the perfect middle of the rotation starter for a team like sox with really good offense.

clement is also less of a groundball pitcher and has a higher strikeout rate, taking a little pressure off the infield defense. i have no doubt out of arroyo, wakefield, wells, miller and clement, and working with varitek (except wake), sox will fill out the rest of the rotation behind schilling quite nicely. it's no lights out staff so i'm not sure about the postseason, but for the regular season, sox will do quite well, i think. (esp. considering wells, miller and clement combined earns less than pedro.)

[aloofman]

i'm sure the GM did his homework, but it's an interesting choice to overpay a groundball pitcher to play at the dodger stadium... the way lowe pitches, he will not benefit from the vast size of the dodger stadium as other pitchers usually do. dodger IF will need to be extra "solid" to make sure lowe won't blow himself up.

however, i think he will benefit from switching the league. the novelty of going from a closer to a starter was wearing off in the AL. it wouldn't surprise me if he had a pretty good season this year.

Lowe does have a bit of a Jeff Weaver-vibe to him. Weaver definitely benefited from the change of scenery last season and seemed to be more comfortable and confident. (Although I attended a game last season in which he hit three batters in a row to load the bases with two outs in the first inning against the Braves. He got out of it and ended up with the win. You don't know which pitcher will show up from inning to inning, much less game to game. But I digress.)

There's quite a bit of recent study on Dodger Stadium's park effects. The verdict is that, unlike in decades past, the park doesn't noticeably supress home runs anymore. But it does drastically reduce the number of doubles and triples that players hit. This explains the signing of Kent and Valentin, two players whose slugging depends much more on homers than doubles or triples.

One wild card is that the Ravine is undergoing modifications this year that will add field-level seats and reduce foul territory by a large margin. It used to have one of the largest foul territories in the majors, but not as many foul balls will outs starting in April. It's unknown how this will affect hitting overall, but many have already pointed out that it shouldn't alter Lowe's performance that much because he's an extreme groundball pitcher.

[aloofman]

Unless the Dodgers have a really good Defencive team, he will strugle. I would expect no more then 17 wins (thats taking into account the "weaker" offense of the NL). If they have a good Defense (the reports I have heard says contrary) then he may get 20 if he can get over his usual biggining of the season jitters (That can last upto 6 months). If the defence is shabby look for less then double digits. "In between" defense, your looking at 10 to 17 but I would say the sweet spot is 14.

I'd say 14 wins 4.0 (+/-.5 leaning towards +) ERA

Just my two cents.

PS Don't you think there was a reason the Sox didn't even try for him, although I am not sure that was a good thing. They are spending 25+mil/3 years (8.4 per year) on Clement for a NL pitcher of unknown quality in the AL instead of Lowe at 36 mil for 4 years (9 per year). If they eaual in ability then the sox win out. Otherwise...


I don't know where your "reports" came from, but the Dodgers had the best defense in the majors last season. The loss of Beltre is their one major defensive downgrade for this year. (If you're a Mariners fan, watch carefully on slow rollers hit to the left side. I've never seen any player field those bare-handed better than Beltre does.) There's some reason to think that Kent is not that much worse on defense than Alex Cora was, but anyway Lowe should know that the offensive upgrade will make up for it. Green was a worse-than-average fielder in both right and first base last year. Unless Choi is absolutely terrible, then first is a wash; he might even be an improvement over last year. Drew is a better outfielder than Green has been the last few years. Werth and Bradley are still very good outfielders. Catching defense should be decent, although it's still a major hole in the lineup. And of course Izturis is the best fielding SS in baseball.

So I'm not worried about the defense behind Lowe. I think he's more likely to get himself into jams than let down by the infield. Although I agree that they overpaid for him, the important thing is to have a better team than last year, and they do. Lowe is better than Jose Lima, Kaz Ishii, and Hideo Nomo, so even if he finishes with a 4.00 ERA in 2005, that's an upgrade. It was the crappy pitching of Nomo and Ishii -- along with the Penny injury after the trade -- that really tore up the rotation last season. So just replacing Nomo with Lowe makes them better. I predict they'll win 90-96 games in 2005.

[jasylonian]

sammy sosa is no longer a cub. jim hendry has turned a lackluster offseason into an interesting one, even though jerry hairston, and these prospects are all worthless. i'm hoping that they all get flipped for better players that will be arbitration eligible next season. i'm just happy that they finally got rid of this clubhouse cancer. i'm just waiting for sammy to pass his physical before i say more...

i'm finally beginning to feel hopeful about the A's again after reading reviews regarding meyer and haren as well as reading the last boxscore from juan cruz's winter league outing.

[jxyama]

well, for the orioles, sosa is a gamble - i think moving to AL, change of scenary will help, but he looked absolutely lost at times at the plate last season. cubs shouldn't be expecting some super prospect for an aging slugger anyway... i guess cubs will have improved morale, which might be worth a lot more than we think...

interesting trade, for sure, since orioles will void the last year of sosa's contract - i assume an extension is coming?

[Chip NoVaMac]

Looks like D'Angelos is finally taking the O's team serious, signing on Sammy Sosa. He must be worried about the DC Nationals... :D

[MacNut]

Looks like D'Angelos is finally taking the O's team serious, signing on Sammy Sosa. He must be worried about the DC Nationals... :DHe better supply the corks if he wants Sammy to hit the long ball. :rolleyes:

[Counterfit]

i'm just happy that they finally got rid of this clubhouse cancer. HA! Not like it's going to help much. You have NOMAH! now :D

[jasylonian]

nomar had every right to hate the red sox after they tried to "trade up" for AROD. he's perfectly happy as a Cub and he's not 1) doing steroids, 2) corking his bat, 3) disappearing before games, 4) won't actually stand remotely close to the plate while batting because he's scared of the ball, or 5) telling people to drop him in the order because he's overrated and then making public statements about how he's so upset that the manager dropped him in the order (this is a preemptive strike to anybody who believes that the Cubs treated Sosa poorly).

[acedickson]

The O's need help in their rotation more than offense. Speaking of Birds, my Cards have really dissapointed me. (Nice segway eh?) First of all letting Renteria get away is heartbreaking. Then, signing David Eckstein for 3-yr, $10.25 million? When we didn't even go after Orlando Cabrera. Lost Mike Matheny too which hurts defensively and no replacement for him yet. Maybe Yadier Molina can step up. Mark Mulder could prove big though. I did like that signing.

Now to the Yanks. Randy Johnson and Carl Pavano. Johnson may have 1 year left and if healthy of course will be RJ. Pavano has one great year and they give him everything. Jaret Wright might be ok. I heard rumblings that Javier Vazquez might be gone.

Mets aren't doing too bad. Pedro, Beltran.

Seattle is piling up the bats. Sexson and Beltre, WOW!

I'm ready for the season to start already.

[gwuMACaddict]

this orioles deal is absolute crap. i dont mind seeing hairston go, but for crying out loud- DOES ANYONE REMEMBER ALBERT BELLE?!?!?!

the orioles just stopped paying him his 80some million dollar conract like a year ago. and then they turn around and sign another aging, pain in the ass, corks his bat, right fielder.

HELLO!??!?!?!?!?!?!

i'm honestly pissed about this. i love the orioles, already have all my season tickets, but ARGH! ARGH! ARGH!

[jxyama]

yeah, orioles got it pretty tough. having expos move in close doesn't help. having two of the highest payroll teams in the same division doesn't help. i consider the sosa trade to be a publicity stunt - and i think most fans are like you and aren't biting. i wouldn't say it's as bad as belle's signing, but this could be turn out to be a relatively short stay for sosa.

even as a red sox fan, i think renteria is a bit overrated. he had one great year a few years ago, where he slugged like half-arod, but since then, he's quite "ordinary" as a SS. i don't think cards did too terribly with eckstein. he's cheaper, at least, and with all those great bats behind him, eckstein will score a ton of runs. (he'd be a good fantasy pickup.) ;)

can't wait for the season to start! no hockey -> bored until the spring (since i don't care about basketball and football much.)

[jasylonian]

the cubs have reinforced their commitment to mediocrity with the signing of Jeromy Burnitz for $5 million. if i were Peter McClatchy, I would subscribe to the Chicago Tribune and use it for toilet paper. the Colorado "Pathetic Excuse For A Franchise" Rockies need to turn up the humidor, let the grass grow, and move the fences out another 50 ft. so that mistakes like neifi perez stop happening.

[aloofman]

nomar had every right to hate the red sox after they tried to "trade up" for AROD. he's perfectly happy as a Cub and he's not 1) doing steroids, 2) corking his bat, 3) disappearing before games, 4) won't actually stand remotely close to the plate while batting because he's scared of the ball, or 5) telling people to drop him in the order because he's overrated and then making public statements about how he's so upset that the manager dropped him in the order (this is a preemptive strike to anybody who believes that the Cubs treated Sosa poorly).

In all fairness, before the A-Rod trade attempt, Garciaparra had been holding out for a bigger contract that the Red Sox didn't want to give him. And they had their suspicions about the seriousness of his injuries and his commitment to playing for them. Under those circumstances, it's not unreasonable to consider trading him. Since Nomar was one of the most popular athletes in Boston, only a blockbuster trade that brought over a superstar would be well-received. The worst thing they did to Nomar was not trying to trade him, but not pulling the trigger on it. That put everyone in an awkward situation, to say the least.

The best thing you can say about it is that everyone involved seems to be happier now.

[Counterfit]

When we didn't even go after Orlando Cabrera. That would have been interesting, having the two World Series teams swap their SS's :D
Now, imagine if they both made it to the FC this year! :eek:

[me_94501]

Go A's? *sigh* :rolleyes:
Worst offseason, ever.
I know what you mean. But I think Beane may see trouble brewing in Mulder and Hudson. Hudson has had injuries in the playoffs in 2002 and 2003 and I believe was on the DL again in 2004. Mulder has a history of injury trouble and absolutely broke down late last season. I can't say I feel all that good about Zito, though since he's been hit-or-miss. Harden's probably the most reliable arm they have right now. Less than two weeks until pitchers and catchers report! :D

[Sun Baked]

Diamondbacks should be interesting this year, after getting raped two years in a row on trades (and all that money they paid to get rid of people, or retire them) -- they finally cash in, even though they were forced into some trades they'd rather have not made.

They did end up with all of the top three pitchers in the NL (for walks) last year. :rolleyes:

At least they can't get any worse... ;)

Don't know what impact Jeff Moorad had on the deals, which is what worries the rest of the team owners.

[aloofman]

Diamondbacks should be interesting this year, after getting raped two years in a row on trades (and all that money they paid to get rid of people, or retire them) -- they finally cash in, even though they were forced into some trades they'd rather have not made.

They did end up with all of the top three pitchers in the NL (for walks) last year. :rolleyes:

At least they can't get any worse... ;)

Don't know what impact Jeff Moorad had on the deals, which is what worries the rest of the team owners.

"Interesting" as in, "Where did they get all this money to spend?" Seems like every year they get this infusion of cash from owners/investors. Who keeps paying in? And after last season, why would they want to?

[Sun Baked]

"Interesting" as in, "Where did they get all this money to spend?" Seems like every year they get this infusion of cash from owners/investors. Who keeps paying in? And after last season, why would they want to?Interesting as in, what will happen with the super sports agent Jeff Moorad...

The rest of baseball does not want him in the Diamondbacks front office, especially with the way the team restructuring has gone in the offseason.

He's coming in as a partner, with full expectations of being the team owner/controller in the future.

If the team does extremely well, you may have a few more people raising their eyebrows over the way the contracts went together this offseason.

[Koodauw]

I know what you mean. But I think Beane may see trouble brewing in Mulder and Hudson. Hudson has had injuries in the playoffs in 2002 and 2003 and I believe was on the DL again in 2004. Mulder has a history of injury trouble and absolutely broke down late last season. I can't say I feel all that good about Zito, though since he's been hit-or-miss. Harden's probably the most reliable arm they have right now. Less than two weeks until pitchers and catchers report! :D
Your right in the fact that He saw trouble brewing, but it wasn't on field, it was called free agency. We all know the A's won't (can't?) pony up the money to sign all of the big 3. Even two looked iffy, so Billy went out and got the most he could for them. Business wise it had to be done. Unfortunate, yes.

[MacNut]

Im a little peeved at my team the Yankees not for what they have done on the field but what they are doing to cover for Giambi and make him out to be a victim. I listened to his "apology" and how he was sorry for juicing up but why the Yankees are defending him is really getting to me. The game is being ruined by these players who are flat out cheating and being allowed to do it as Selig is saying stupid things like this. Asked about Bonds and his home run achievements, Selig praised the All-Star player, saying: "Barry has done what nobody else has done. He deserves the credit he's getting." Why should he deserve credit for cheating, This coming form a Commissioner who refuses to let Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame. Why is this man in charge of baseball he is just as bad as the players.

[MacNut]

Associated Press

NEW YORK -- Jose Canseco says injecting his teammates with steroids was "something so common" that he didn't give it much thought at the time.

"I injected them," Canseco tells Mike Wallace, according to a partial transcript of his upcoming interview with "60 Minutes" for a segment to be broadcast Sunday on CBS.

Canseco talks at length about using steroids with Mark McGwire while they were teammates on the Oakland A's. McGwire has firmly denied using the drugs.

"The first time injecting them in (McGwire's) buttocks," says Canseco, "it wasn't like you gave it a lot of thought. It was something so common."

Canseco wrote that he and McGwire injected steroids together "often" but told Wallace that he remembered injecting McGwire only a couple of times.

"Well, I think it was more inject ourselves," he said. "I think I injected him -- I mean, this is a long time ago -- once or twice for sure. I didn't keep track."

The interview was to be broadcast one day before the release of Canseco's book, "Juiced: Wild Times, Rampant 'Roids, Smash Hits & How Baseball Got Big."

Canseco's book also names former teammates Rafael Palmeiro, Juan Gonzalez and Ivan Rodriguez, all of whom have publicly denied using performance-enhancing drugs.

"I injected them. Absolutely," he said in the interview.

A few years ago, Canseco claimed that 80 percent of major-leaguers had taken steroids.

Canseco hit 462 home runs in a major-league career from 1985 to 2001

[aloofman]

Im a little peeved at my team the Yankees not for what they have done on the field but what they are doing to cover for Giambi and make him out to be a victim. I listened to his "apology" and how he was sorry for juicing up but why the Yankees are defending him is really getting to me. The game is being ruined by these players who are flat out cheating and being allowed to do it as Selig is saying stupid things like this. Why should he deserve credit for cheating, This coming form a Commissioner who refuses to let Pete Rose into the Hall of Fame. Why is this man in charge of baseball he is just as bad as the players.

Consider that the Yankees are still on the hook for tens of millions of dollars on Giambi's contract. Rumors have been flying that they've searched for a way to void it because of the steroids, so if they haven't done it yet, they most likely can't. That means that one of several things will happen, most of them bad for the Yankees:

(1) Giambi has to stay on the Yankees roster for several more years, even if he isn't any good any more. This is going to drive Yankee fans crazy, but if it has to happen anyway, the team is going to have work to make him seem like a good guy again. They might as well start now.

(2) Another team takes Giambi off their hands. This seems really unlikely because he's way overpaid unless he starts hitting like Bonds AND can convince everyone he's clean. Even then, his character needs rehab, just like in #1.

(3) The Yankees release him and just eat the contract. As rich as the Yankees are, even they cringe at the thought of releasing him, especially because he could then play for another team and the Yankees would still be paying most of his salary. It may eventually come to this, but they'll pull out all the stops to avoid it.

(4) Giambi's performance deteriorates to the point where he can't play anymore and he retires after agreeing to let the Yankees buy out his contract for a smaller sum. This would require a level of honor that we haven't seen from him so far, but would save the Yankees. This seems about as implausible as #2, but showing him public loyalty now might help make it happen.

So you can see that the Yankees really have no other choice than to stick by him. And by the way, so far no one has proven that Giambi (or anyone else) took steroids after baseball banned them. So while it's cheating from an ethical standpoint, it didn't break any of baseball's rules at the time. I'm not defending the juicers. I'm just saying that this is a mess that baseball made for itself and has profited from for years.

[MacNut]

Spring Training begins let the baseball season commence. And the reports of rampant steroid use will continue.

[jxyama]

yanks deserve to get stuck with giambi. they realized after his recent slide in performance that they overpaid for him and steroid is just one convenient reason for them to possibly get out of it. sheffield is being "excused" because he's still putting up good numbers, even though he's under the same investigation on BALCO. :rolleyes:

[MacNut]

I agree that the Yankees are stuck with Giambi and Sheffield isn't getting enough scrutiny but lets not forget the real problem. Bonds and his chase for the all time HR record and if he breaks it baseball will be ruined forever.

[Koodauw]

yanks deserve to get stuck with giambi. they realized after his recent slide in performance that they overpaid for him and steroid is just one convenient reason for them to possibly get out of it. sheffield is being "excused" because he's still putting up good numbers, even though he's under the same investigation on BALCO. :rolleyes:

I don't recall all the facts, but I think Shef has been alot more open about Steriods than Giambi. I think Shef admitted to using them to rehab from an injury, but never knew that he was taking steroids. (Wether you believe that or not is another arguement.) The situation is alot different for Shef, and thats why he has not been in the spot as much.

[jxyama]

Bonds and his chase for the all time HR record and if he breaks it baseball will be ruined forever.

and we all pretty much know barring a career ending incident, he will break it within the next two years... :(

what sucks is that career records persist for a while. we all know some of the world records in track and field and/or swimming were steroid enhanced, but once someone breaks them, they are things of the past and we can move on.

it's gonna take years before anyone can break the career HR record. it'll take a-rod close to a decade to break it.

so depressing...

[aloofman]

Remember that stats are just part of the explanation of a player's career. Stats also show that Hank Aaron went to bat thousands more times to pass Babe Ruth. Hank is the home run king, but any baseball fan that has investigated knows that they played in different eras, different competition, different training methods. The numbers show that they're both great players, but Aaron's higher homer total doesn't mean he was better than Ruth, as Aaron himself has said.

Similarly, anyone who cares to look into Bonds' numbers knows the story. Even if it's shown that he got no benefit from steroids, he racked up huge totals in a very homer-friendly era, when second basemen were regularly hitting 30 homers, and half of the 50-homer seasons in baseball history occurred in one decade. If Bonds passes Aaron, he will be even less loved than Aaron was at the time (although for completely different reasons that can't really be compared).

[Koodauw]

But lets not talk about the bad part of Baseball... On to the good.

Speaking of of good, Randy Johnson is pretty darn good, and last time I checked, he Pitched for the Yanks. So bring it on.

Let's Play some ball.

[MacNut]

I'll toast to that.

[Sayhey]

I'm excited about the Giants chances this year. I think with the signings of Alou, Vizquel, Matheny, and most of all Benitez they have patched up the holes in the club from last year. Their infield defense will be excellent and the outfield will be fine for the balls those aging legs can get to. If, and it is a mighty big if, the Giants players can stay healthy they have the best team in the league. Combined with Barry's race for the record, this is going to be a great year.

[Wyvernspirit]

I don't recall all the facts, but I think Shef has been alot more open about Steriods than Giambi. I think Shef admitted to using them to rehab from an injury, but never knew that he was taking steroids. (Wether you believe that or not is another arguement.) The situation is alot different for Shef, and thats why he has not been in the spot as much.

I believe Shef commented after Giambi made his statements and stated that he has never admitted to using steroids, even unknowingly. This I guess just helps muddy the water all the more.

[aloofman]

I'm excited about the Giants chances this year. I think with the signings of Alou, Vizquel, Matheny, and most of all Benitez they have patched up the holes in the club from last year. Their infield defense will be excellent and the outfield will be fine for the balls those aging legs can get to. If, and it is a mighty big if, the Giants players can stay healthy they have the best team in the league. Combined with Barry's race for the record, this is going to be a great year.

You can take this with a big grain of salt, since i'm a Dodger fan, but...

It's possible that Alou will work his alchemy again and the Giants will be strong contenders, like that 100-win team two years ago that really overachieved until they faced Florida in the playoffs. But if Bonds or Schmidt go down, they're dead. That might be the slowest outfield in the history of baseball and I predict they will lose several games for that reason alone. They're really betting all their chips on this season now.

I'm not saying they'll suck, just that if I were a Giants fan, I'd be on pins and needles every game hoping no one gets hurt. (Kind of like I was last season every time Ishii took the mound.) I think the NL West will be pretty tight, like last year, with SF, LA, and SD. If the Dodgers are as good as they are on paper, they'll be at least as good as last year. If the Padres get more consistent offense, they'll be tough. It should be pretty exciting!

[Sayhey]

You can take this with a big grain of salt, since i'm a Dodger fan, but...

It's possible that Alou will work his alchemy again and the Giants will be strong contenders, like that 100-win team two years ago that really overachieved until they faced Florida in the playoffs. But if Bonds or Schmidt go down, they're dead. That might be the slowest outfield in the history of baseball and I predict they will lose several games for that reason alone. They're really betting all their chips on this season now.

I'm not saying they'll suck, just that if I were a Giants fan, I'd be on pins and needles every game hoping no one gets hurt. (Kind of like I was last season every time Ishii took the mound.) I think the NL West will be pretty tight, like last year, with SF, LA, and SD. If the Dodgers are as good as they are on paper, they'll be at least as good as last year. If the Padres get more consistent offense, they'll be tough. It should be pretty exciting!

While noting your bias, I agree with some of your points. If Bonds or Schmidt go down for any length of time the don't have a great chance. That can be said of most teams stars, however. I agree the Giants outfield isn't the fastest in the league, but it's not quite as bad as you make it out. Poor Grissom is going to have to cover a lot of ground on those 37 going on 38 year-old legs, but all of them have good to excellent gloves when they get to the ball. Look for Michael Tucker and young Jason Ellison to get a lot of playing time in relief.

What I really don't agree with is your assessment of the Dodger's off season. They lost their star, Beltre, and who did they replace his bat with - Jeff Kent. Kent is not going to have the same numbers with the Dodgers lineup and playing half his games in Dodger Stadium as he did in that bandbox in Houston. We know something about Jeff Kent up here and he is not exactly the best team player in existence. Count on a Kent - Bradley blow up this year. I don't think the Dodgers are as good as last year, the Padres did next to nothing to improve, the Diamondbacks - while they did the most to improve - have too far to go, and the Rockies are just plain bad. In short, this division is the Giants to lose. If they stay healthy they could run away with it.

[aloofman]

What I really don't agree with is your assessment of the Dodger's off season. They lost their star, Beltre, and who did they replace his bat with - Jeff Kent. Kent is not going to have the same numbers with the Dodgers lineup and playing half his games in Dodger Stadium as he did in that bandbox in Houston. We know something about Jeff Kent up here and he is not exactly the best team player in existence. Count on a Kent - Bradley blow up this year. I don't think the Dodgers are as good as last year, the Padres did next to nothing to improve, the Diamondbacks - while they did the most to improve - have too far to go, and the Rockies are just plain bad. In short, this division is the Giants to lose. If they stay healthy they could run away with it.

I disagree. While I wish they had kept Beltre, it's very unlikely that he'll be that good again, which makes letting him go easier to stomach. Besides, it's not Kent that's replacing his bat, it's Drew. Granted, Drew was not as good as Beltre was last year, but the Dodger lineup got deeper. Six players have potential 20-HR power. They had to pay way too much for Lowe, but their rotation is the second-best in the division after San Diego. The closer position is probably about the same right now because Benitez was stellar last year, but Gagne has been more consistent over the last few seasons. Dodgers have the edge when it comes to the rest of the bullpen.

You're right though that Kent's numbers will go down, but I'm not sure it will be that drastic. Dodger Stadium tends to prevent doubles and triples, but allows homers near the league average, and that's where Kent's power comes from. You're also right that he's an explosion waiting to happen and the possibility of a collision with Meltdown Bradley is high.

While I'm not sure this offseason's moves will work this season, the Dodgers are in much better shape for 2006-2007 than the Giants are. They have a lot more payroll flexibility and a stronger farm system. This is what I'll tell myself over and over again if the Giants win the division! :D

[IJ Reilly]

I'm prepared to console myself. LA is not likely to be as competitive this season as last, but lest we forget, the rotation was an absolute disaster last season, but they squeaked into the playoffs anyhow. If Brad Penny is healthy (a big ?), then I think they've got the best in the division this season. That said, I'd have been much happier with Kent at first and Cora at second. It makes me sick to think they released Cora. (I have been told that Cora whined about being platooned last season, so maybe that's why they let him go -- but as a big fan of great defensive play, it's still painful.)

Beltre -- I think the Dodgers might just get the last laugh on that one. He demanded and got a contract of the kind that usually only go to proven performers. As much as I like Beltre, I just don't think one breakout season (with free agency on the horizon) is enough to prove he's worth that much for so many years. Seattle is gambling a great deal on him.

The big gap is behind the plate. I just can't see them starting David Ross there every day.

[Sayhey]

At the risk of being ganged up on by two such estimable Dodger fans, I'm going to say I'll take the Giants rotation over the Bums anyday. I think Schmidt is the best pitcher in the league, let alone the division. I also love the young arms the Giants have with Lowry, Williams, and Foppert. Tomko has shown he finally knows how to use his fastball inside and was the best pitcher down the stretch. Only Woody looks questionable to me and I think you will see Foppert take his place as the year goes on.

Now, I admit that when it comes to the bullpen, you guys have a monster arm in Gagne. I'm just glad that with the acquisition of Benitez, the Giants have at least the third, and maybe the second best, closer in the division (behind Gagne and maybe Hoffman.) The rest of the Giants bullpen is much better than it was last year, just with a defined closer as an addition.

Last year you southland boys had an embarrassment of riches when it came to defense. Take out Beltre, Cora, and Finley and the defense is going to suffer. That is especially true with the addition of Valentin and Kent in the infield. The Giants, on the other hand, upgraded their defense with Vizquel and Matheny. The local nine won't be giving away any where as many outs.

As to offense, while I like JD, do you want to take bets on who plays in more games - Alou or Drew? That kid has been hurt more than Carter has pills. The Dodgers offense is not going to produce all those miracle comebacks that got them into the playoffs last year. As long as the Giants have Barry they will drive in as many or more runs than any other team in the NL, with only St. Louis giving them much competition.

OK, now that I've done my bragging for you two to throw back at me as they Giants fall apart, explain to me how DePodesta allows Beltre to walk? This is a kid the Dodgers have groomed since he was 15 to be their superstar and just as he is growing into his potential they let him go over a few bucks? I love pitching too, but the closest thing you guys have to Oakland's three Aces (the model DePodesta seems to be building towards) is Edwin Jackson - and he is still unproven. He's letting Beltre walk and throwing his money at Penny, Lowe, Perez, and the ever broken down JD Drew. I would hope this is a plan for the long range because it doesn't makes sense for this year.

[IJ Reilly]

I'd have been happier if they'd kept Finley instead of hiring Drew, but I honestly don't know enough about JD to have any expectations. (If you want me worried, I admit, it worked!)

The Dodgers didn't just groom Beltre all those years, they suffered Beltre. Many years of unrealized potential, lack of discipline and drive, leading to frustration. The guy timed his breakthrough perfectly, that's for sure. Besides the obvious, DePodesta's philosophy evidently is to not mortgage the team's future to a few big-ticket players. I can see the point -- these deals often don't work out, at least they haven't for the Dodgers. They paid a fortune for Greene, but he never really earned it. Two more words on that subject: Darren Driefort.

I may just be trying to smooth over my own hurt feelings as a fan, but if I had to make a prediction about Beltre, I'd guess that now that he's got all those millions in the bank, he's going to put some of that fire back where it came from. Maybe the next time he gets bone spurs in his ankle he'll sit it out. What's to prove?

Edwin Jackson had a brilliant debut near the end of the 2003 season. Then he got hurt, and now all I can think of is, um... Darren Driefort.

[IJ Reilly]

BTW (and I can hardly resist this)... "so long as the Giants have Barry..."

If he gets swept up ever further in the doping scandal his career could come to one dramatic, screeching halt, and become one of the biggest asterisks in the history of baseball.

[Sayhey]

BTW (and I can hardly resist this)... "so long as the Giants have Barry..."

If he gets swept up ever further in the doping scandal his career could come to one dramatic, screeching halt, and become one of the biggest asterisks in the history of baseball.

OUCH!!! Stop such horrible thoughts, IJ. Barry is one very intelligent man. If he did take steroids I think he and Greg Anderson are the only ones who will every know. As long as Anderson doesn't implicate Barry in something, I think Barry will play his two or three more years and retire with every record he could reasonably want.

[MacNut]

Bonds can't be that smart when he drops dead in 5 years after the roids catch up too him. Can you say Caminiti

[Sayhey]

As someone who has watched Barry play his whole career in San Francisco, I can tell you this is one guy who did not bulk up overnight from the abuse of steroids. His added muscle has been the result of an intense workout regime over the space of the entire twelve seasons he has played in a Giants uniform. Does that mean he has never take steroids? Of course not, but the assumption he is an abuser of steroids is not a certainty either. I've always thought that proof of guilt was a good thing to have before speaking about someone as a criminal. Caminiti and Canseco are admitted steroid abusers; let's leave it at that until we have proof otherwise.

[MacNut]

Im sure that cream was for the pimples on his back, "wow my muscles are huge, what's that this isn't zit cream now don't I have egg on my face. I had no idea that was steroids." :rolleyes: :(

[Sayhey]

Actually, he said it was used for arthritis in his knees (which he has) and used openly in the clubhouse. Now, of course, you know better and can tell from across the continent that he is lying and was using a steroid laced cream. Pardon me, you may be right, but if I wait for a more authoritative source for proof I should be excused. :rolleyes:

One thing I do assume to be true. If Barry did lie under oath and the feds can in anyway prove it; there will be a trial. This has been about trying to get Bonds from the start. While I don't like the Libertarian politics of the site, here is a very interesting article at Reason online (http://www.reason.com/links/links120804.shtml).

"That Bonds. He's a great athlete," Internal Revenue Service criminal investigator Jeff Novitzky told California Bureau of Narcotics Enforcement agent Iran White three or four years ago, according to White's account, as reported in a remarkable May 2004 Playboy article. "You think he's on steroids?" When White reckoned that Bonds was, Novitzky reportedly answered: "He's such an asshole to the press... I'd sure like to prove it."

Remember, kids: Don't be an asshole to the media!

For two years, Novitzky, a former college basketball player, lobbied various state and federal agencies—"always with Bonds as the lure," according to Playboy—and in February 2003, a sting operation was set in motion against the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative (BALCO), which provided blood analysis, nutritional supplements, weight training facilities, and various anabolic steroids to an impressive roster of athletes, including (according to BALCO founder and former Tower of Power bassist Victor Conte) former NFL star Bill Romanowski, Olympic Gold Medalist Marion Jones (who has strenuously denied the charge), and Barry Bonds' personal trainer and lifelong friend, Greg Anderson.

and

And finally, think back to poor Barry Bonds, if you can call a jerk who makes $19 million a year "poor." What if he told the truth under oath, and never knowingly took illegal or banned substances?

If that's the case, then the man who had the season to end all seasons was rewarded for it by A) being made the prime target of a multi-agency federal investigation backed directly by the president and attorney general; B) having his reputation (and endorsements-earning potential) deliberately shredded; and C) being forced to fend off continuous hostile cross-examination, even while compiling the best four-year run in baseball history.

There is such a thing as the presumption of innocence, no matter what you read in the sports pages. As it stands, Barry Bonds has not even been formally accused of violating a single baseball rule, let alone federal law.

President Bush has indeed "sent a message" to the kids of America: We can make you look guilty, even when you've never been charged. It's a rough lesson, but they might as well start getting used it.

[IJ Reilly]

OUCH!!! Stop such horrible thoughts, IJ. Barry is one very intelligent man. If he did take steroids I think he and Greg Anderson are the only ones who will every know. As long as Anderson doesn't implicate Barry in something, I think Barry will play his two or three more years and retire with every record he could reasonably want.

I didn't mean to set off a huge debate about steroid use, or even to imply that I "know something" that others don't. But one thing I can say about baseball, and one of the reasons I prefer it over other sports, is that the players mainly look human. Football and especially basketball players are by in large freaks of nature. What fan can identify with a guy seven feet tall?

So that brings me to Barry. Not that I don't admire his athletic accomplishments, but when I look at him, I see someone who isn't just strong, he's supernaturally powerful. Sure, he trains -- but what athlete doesn't? And sure, some players are going to be inherently stronger (and more talented) than others, but Barry, he's an order of magnitude stronger. Just as an ordinary, curious human being (not to mention, a baseball fan), I have to set my admiration aside for a second and ask myself -- is this man entirely real? Answering that question within the context of the current chemical scandal, I have to say, very possibly not.

MLB is just beginning to come to grips with this problem. I certainly don't know where it will lead, but you have to know that if it leads to more serious allegations, Barry is going to be suspect numero uno. And if it happens, I for one am not going to be a fan who says it just could not be so.

[Sayhey]

I didn't mean to set off a huge debate about steroid use, or even to imply that I "know something" that others don't. But one thing I can say about baseball, and one of the reasons I prefer it over other sports, is that the players mainly look human. Football and especially basketball players are by in large freaks of nature. What fan can identify with a guy seven feet tall?

So that brings me to Barry. Not that I don't admire his athletic accomplishments, but when I look at him, I see someone who isn't just strong, he's supernaturally powerful. Sure, he trains -- but what athlete doesn't? And sure, some players are going to be inherently stronger (and more talented) than others, but Barry, he's an order of magnitude stronger. Just as an ordinary, curious human being (not to mention, a baseball fan), I have to set my admiration aside for a second and ask myself -- is this man entirely real? Answering that question within the context of the current chemical scandal, I have to say, very possibly not.

MLB is just beginning to come to grips with this problem. I certainly don't know where it will lead, but you have to know that if it leads to more serious allegations, Barry is going to be suspect numero uno. And if it happens, I for one am not going to be a fan who says it just could not be so.

IJ, I don't mind good healthy skepticism regarding Barry, McGwire, Sosa, or any of the other stars of the so-called "steroid" era. I just can't stand it when folks assume they know what must be the facts concerning a situation they have no real clue about. What we do know is that even with warning over 7% of the players in MLB failed a drug test for steroids. We also know that some stars of the past, Ken Caminiti and Jose Canseco in particular, have admitted to the abuse of steroids. So if we want to talk about what is obviously a serious problem in baseball, I certainly don't have a problem with it. Let's just not start talking out of our posteriors about things we don't know.

As to Barry in particular, I will only repeat what I said in my other post. Barry has been committed to an intense exercise regime over the past 12 years since he has been with the Giants. That includes in the early days working out with such workout fanatics as Roger Craig and Jerry Rice. In short his training is on a level that most baseball players never attempt. Now that doesn't mean he has never taken steroids. It only means he did not bulk up overnight or over one off-season like many other players have. If you want to be suspicious about drug use, that's fine. I have my own suspicions, especially concerning HGH, but I won't pretend I know the answer.

[IJ Reilly]

I'm assuming the problem is widespread throughout the sport. It might even be a little unfair to point the boney finger at Barry, but if banned chemical use is as common as we both suppose it to be then it's only natural that the most standout performers are going to be the most suspected. If I wasn't entirely clear about this, as a fan I hope "the big one" that Barry is almost certain to break doesn't end up with a fat asterisk next to it -- but I'm just not going to be shocked if it does. Disappointed, yes. Shocked, no. You know, a lot of people thought Aaron deserved an asterisk because he played so many more games than Ruth (and some of it in the "dead ball" era).

[MacNut]

One of the bigger issues with that era is that the outfield was 75 feet longer in Ruth's days so I doubt that todays players would be hitting this many HR's with or without help. Yankee Stadium was well over 500 ft to dead center in Ruth's day.

[Sayhey]

I'm assuming the problem is widespread throughout the sport. It might even be a little unfair to point the boney finger at Barry, but if banned chemical use is as common as we both suppose it to be then it's only natural that the most standout performers are going to be the most suspected. If I wasn't entirely clear about this, as a fan I hope "the big one" that Barry is almost certain to break doesn't end up with a fat asterisk next to it -- but I'm just not going to be shocked if it does. Disappointed, yes. Shocked, no. You know, a lot of people thought Aaron deserved an asterisk because he played so many more games than Ruth (and some of it in the "dead ball" era).

If it is proven that specific players cheat through the use of drugs, then I'm for tough discipline. I have no idea what you would do about records, as it is impossible to tell to what degree they were or were not affected by drug use. Along that line I see Mike Greenwell is taken to calling himself the real MVP of 1988 following Canseco's admissions.

As to Aaron's records, he is baseball all-time homerun king because he lasted as long as he did. He was never the feared player that Mays, Mantle, or Robinson were during his era, much less the power hitter that Ruth was. What he did that was so impressive was the length of time he was an excellent power hitter, even though he was never the best. It is more of a question of understanding what each individual record means given the time they were set. As impressive as Barry's and Aaron's careers are they don't compare to the way Ruth changed the game. You can't put an asterisk next to the record, but if one really understands baseball, Ruth's role in it is unquestioned.

With Barry, we will just have to wait to see how it all plays out. In the meantime, I'm enjoying watching him do amazing things.

[Sayhey]

One of the bigger issues with that era is that the outfield was 75 feet longer in Ruth's days so I doubt that todays players would be hitting this many HR's with or without help. Yankee Stadium was well over 500 ft to dead center in Ruth's day.

MacNut, I've tremendous respect for Ruth's accomplishments. There were years he hit more homeruns than entire teams. While it is true that Yankee stadium had, like the old Polo grounds, a huge center field, it also has that famous right field porch. What one part of the park gives the other takes away. Also, Ruth played in an era with small parks as well. In fact much of the move to the design of the new parks is to try and capture the feel of the old ones. It is the majority of stadiums built in the the 60s and 70s, with the Braves Fulton County stadium as a notable exception, that were the big cavernous places that homeruns went to die. No doubt these new parks play a role in the recent surge in homeruns. It is not all steroids.

[IJ Reilly]

I have the sickening feeling that MLB is about to be swept up in a very deep and lasting chemical use scandal, made worse by years of trying to ignore what was always in plain sight. (I'm going to place a lot of the blame on the Commissioner -- he's been one of the game's biggest problems for years.) I can only guess at what will happen to the records set during the '90s until whenever they can get this thing under control, but I suspect this period will have a name, one fans will always apply to it when they talk about the records -- asterisks or no.

I'm not making the asterisk argument for Aaron, just noting that people will make that argument for reasons far less substantial than performance-enhancing chemical use. One argument I am not inclined to accept though is if nobody is caught then maybe nothing happened. If we can get the chemicals out of baseball, then we can watch what happens to performance. Then we'll know whether this era deserves a real or virtual asterisk, even if no individual player was ever caught with a syringe in their hand.

[aloofman]

One of the bigger issues with that era is that the outfield was 75 feet longer in Ruth's days so I doubt that todays players would be hitting this many HR's with or without help. Yankee Stadium was well over 500 ft to dead center in Ruth's day.

And right field was about 310. Yankee Stadium was built with Ruth in mind. However, he was victimized by Fenway Park in his early years, which was a brutal pitcher's park back then.

It's really hard to compare eras though. Ruth also never had to play against the great black players of his time. There were no hitter's backgrounds, so hitters usually saw the ball against a backdrop of white t-shirts in the outfield. Cross-country travel wasn't necessary then. You can come up with ten reasons why Ruth had it easier and ten that he had it rougher.

[aloofman]

If you want to be suspicious about drug use, that's fine. I have my own suspicions, especially concerning HGH, but I won't pretend I know the answer.

HGH always seemed more likely to me too. As far as I know, steroids don't make your head grow bigger. And it would never show up on tests for steroids.

[Sayhey]

HGH always seemed more likely to me too. As far as I know, steroids don't make your head grow bigger. And it would never show up on tests for steroids.

It maybe a little thing, but I've never seen Barry specifically deny use of HGH. He has denied the use of steroids over and over, but it never seems to get asked, "have you, with or without a doctor's prescription, used human growth hormone?" Still no way to test for it, either. Anyway, it has always been something that made me wonder, and if I was forced to choose between the two drugs, there is no doubt I'd go with HGH.

[Sayhey]

You can come up with ten reasons why Ruth had it easier and ten that he had it rougher.

Absolutely.

[MacNut]

So Barry Roid spoke to the media today and it was such a joke, Im amazed that people give him the time of day, This guy is ruining the game of baseball that we all have come to know and love.

[Koodauw]

So Barry Roid spoke to the media today and it was such a joke, Im amazed that people give him the time of day, This guy is ruining the game of baseball that we all have come to know and love.

I agree, this guy is such an arrogant ass. Say what you want about other atheletes, but he takes the cake. It would be a disgrace if he ends up the HR king.

[MacNut]

So Barry Roid spoke to the media today and it was such a joke, Im amazed that people give him the time of day, This guy is ruining the game of baseball that we all have come to know and love.Just to prove my point, heres the transcript of his press conference.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1997605&num=0

[Sayhey]

And Yankees fans have room to talk about arrogance?

Barry (whose last name is Bonds) hates the press, is this news to anyone? If you know anything about how the press dealt with his father and godfather, then you might have a clue why. In the end, Baseball will survive this controversy, and Barry will have most of the records worth having. Perhaps then Yankees fans can spend the next century howling how it is unfair one of their own can't say that.

[MacNut]

Yes I'm a Yankee fan and I can't stand Jason Giambi because he is a lieing cheating sack of scum and doesn't deserve to play on the field with all of the past Yankee greats who ever stepped foot in to Yankee Stadium. Cheating should not be allowed into sports of any kind and thats why I have a problem with Barry Bonds. Why you are so easy to defend him is beyond me. If he would come clean about everything than this would all go away, he has nobody to blame but himself. :mad:

[Sayhey]

Yes I'm a Yankee fan and I can't stand Jason Giambi because he is a lieing cheating sack of scum and doesn't deserve to play on the field with all of the past Yankee greats who ever stepped foot in to Yankee Stadium. Cheating should not be allowed into sports of any kind and thats why I have a problem with Barry Bonds. Why you are so easy to defend him is beyond me. If he would come clean about everything than this would all go away, he has nobody to blame but himself. :mad:

I will say it again, you and I don't know the truth of Barry's alleged use of steroids. If you have some kind of magic window to the truth, then you can enlighten us all about Barry. Until then it is only your conjecture. So go on, hate Barry. I just hope he's the MVP of a series sweep next October when the Yankees go down in flames. Oh, yes, and by that time the all time left-handed homerun king will no longer be a Yankee. :eek:

[MacNut]

Can you in all honesty believe without a shadow of a doubt that Barry Bonds is clean and never in his career ever took steroids?

[Sayhey]

Can you in all honesty believe without a shadow of a doubt that Barry Bonds is clean and never in his career ever took steroids?

If you had read my posts, you would know of my doubts. I don't mind expressions of doubt. I dislike certainty on the part of Barry haters. I also believe that proof of wrong doing is required before one is convicted or disciplined for anything. Your dislike of Barry doesn't constitute proof.

[IJ Reilly]

If you had read my posts, you would know of my doubts. I don't mind expressions of doubt. I dislike certainty on the part of Barry haters. I also believe that proof of wrong doing is required before one is convicted or disciplined for anything. Your dislike of Barry doesn't constitute proof.

This kind of thing is normal baseball fan behavior. When I was a kid growing up as a Mets fan, their biggest rivalry was with Philadelphia. Pete Rose was heckled mercilessly by the fans whenever the Phils played in Shea. I remember one time he go so angry he started yelling back. That only inspired more Rose hatred among Mets fans. I also seem to remember him being pelted with paper cups one time.

You've got to admit, Barry doesn't exactly inspire warm, fuzzy feelings among ball fans -- and not especially outside of San Francisco, where he wins games for the home team. He isn't the first and won't be the last athlete to have a tough time handling the fame game.

[aloofman]

I'd just like to say that I've been one of the 53,000 at Dodger Stadium and I feel honored that he singled us out as his best hecklers. That's what it's all about right there. :D

[Sayhey]

I'd just like to say that I've been one of the 53,000 at Dodger Stadium and I feel honored that he singled us out as his best hecklers. That's what it's all about right there. :D

That's a high standard to live up to. I expect no less than your best effort next time you see the Giants. Ya' bum! :D :D

It's been a long while since the Dodgers had a player that inspired that kind of personal attention. Garvey and Drysdale made the grade, but not many after. Maybe Orel and Reggie Smith, but then they did the unthinkable and joined us. Of course, over the years we had Lasorda as our number one target, but that is a little different. We don't save our venom for any particular Dodger, but spread it around for the whole team. :p

Of course, now that you have Jeff Kent playing in Dodger blue we have a special case. :D

This kind of thing is normal baseball fan behavior. When I was a kid growing up as a Mets fan, their biggest rivalry was with Philadelphia. Pete Rose was heckled mercilessly by the fans whenever the Phils played in Shea. I remember one time he go so angry he started yelling back. That only inspired more Rose hatred among Mets fans. I also seem to remember him being pelted with paper cups one time.

You've got to admit, Barry doesn't exactly inspire warm, fuzzy feelings among ball fans -- and not especially outside of San Francisco, where he wins games for the home team. He isn't the first and won't be the last athlete to have a tough time handling the fame game.

Of course it is, but so is defending your team, right? In a forum such as this it gets a little boring if it is only a series of "Yeah Team" posts. So why not ask for a few facts to back up the normal categorical, sweeping assertions that too often pass for dialogue in sports?

Yes, I booed Rose with the rest of them whenever "Charlie Hustle" did his signature run to first base on a walk (throwing things is way over the line.) I would expect nothing less from opposing fans when Barry and the Giants are in town. I also note that there seems to be a lot more of them at the game when Barry and the Giants come to town.

As to how Barry handles the "fame game," it's part of why I like the guy. I hate sportswriters who think they are the game. I don't care if an athlete doesn't treat the media with all the proper respect they think they must have. There are just too many reporters looking for "juicy" stories, of all kinds, to make their careers on and not enough attention paid to what happens on the field. Barry was never arrested for a crime; he has never been anything other than the best, most hard working player in his era, but because he is not warm and fuzzy with the media he is vilified. What I'm looking for as a fan is talent, both from my favorite team to cheer about and in opposing teams to boo. Barry has given me unforgettable moments to remember his amazing talents from the first time he stepped on to the field.

[IJ Reilly]

The steroid story is far more than something manufactured by sports writers, though to hear Barry say it, that's about all there is to it. That's just first order denial of reality, if you ask me, and I don't know any baseball fan who's buying that line. I just read the account of Barry's press conference yesterday and I was left wondering why he bothered, since he's never liked talking to the press anyway. He evaded every substantial question like a ham-handed politician. As far as I can tell, the only point to the entire event was to berate the press and to level a few choice insults. Yeah, I'm impressed. You should have stayed home and rested your knees, Barry.

What I don't like are athletes who fail to treat the fans with the respect they deserve. I don't appreciate Bonds' cavalier attitude about the growing chemical scandal, which I'm sure he'd have a hard time believing, isn't all about him. I also don't need to see him appearing at press conferences for little other purpose that to prove that he doesn't have to talk about it he doesn't want to. I think he's massively misjudging how baseball fans feel about this issue, which I predict will hurt him in the eyes of the people who really do matter. You can break ever record in the book, but that won't necessarily buy you respect from the fans.

[Sayhey]

The steroid story is far more than something manufactured by sports writers, though to hear Barry say it, that's about all there is to it. That's just first order denial of reality, if you ask me, and I don't know any baseball fan who's buying that line. I just read the account of Barry's press conference yesterday and I was left wondering why he bothered, since he's never liked talking to the press anyway. He evaded every substantial question like a ham-handed politician. As far as I can tell, the only point to the entire event was to berate the press and to level a few choice insults. Yeah, I'm impressed. You should have stayed home and rested your knees, Barry.

What I don't like are athletes who fail to treat the fans with the respect they deserve. I don't appreciate Bonds' cavalier attitude about the growing chemical scandal, which I'm sure he'd have a hard time believing, isn't all about him. I also don't need to see him appearing at press conferences for little other purpose that to prove that he doesn't have to talk about it he doesn't want to. I think he's massively misjudging how baseball fans feel about this issue, which I predict will hurt him in the eyes of the people who really do matter. You can break ever record in the book, but that won't necessarily buy you respect from the fans.

IJ, if you have the time watch (http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/index.jsp?c_id=sf) the press conference don't just read the transcript. I think Barry comes off much better when you see him than just reading a dry page of print. From Barry's point of view he thinks that the new agreement is dealing seriously with the problem. His problem comes from repeated questions he has answered over and over again about his personal conduct, not his refusal to answer questions about the new agreement or if there should be more testing in baseball. Did anyone expect he was going to go before reporters and apologize for something he doesn't admit doing? He is not Canseco or even Giambi; Bonds has always, and still to this day, denied knowingly using steroids. Suppose he is telling the truth, IJ, why should he not get irritated about a national sports press corp which only wants to talk to him about this story, all while he is accomplishing things on the field that are amazing? As to why he did the press conference, he had no choice. If he refused to say anything it would have only made it worse.

I don't understand how that is being disrespectful to fans. To me, ballplayers who accept amazing amounts of money and don't give their all in the game are disrespectful to fans. That is not something of which Barry is guilty.

[MacNut]

I watched the press conference and I think he comes off worse on TV than in print. You can see his rage and lack of respect for the game, he doesn't get it that its not about him. To me he looked like an arrogant sob that only cares about himself and not the fans.

[Sayhey]

I watched the press conference and I think he comes off worse on TV than in print. You can see his rage and lack of respect for the game, he doesn't get it that its not about him. To me he looked like an arrogant sob that only cares about himself and not the fans.

While certainly entitled to your opinion, I can't see were the word "rage" comes into any interpretation of Barry's performance at the conference. Disdain for the press, absolutely, but "rage"? Come on, MacNut, just where did he exhibit rage? Lack of respect for the game? Only if you assume that respect for the game means admitting he used steroids. Barry continues to maintain he did not. That kind of puts him in a no-win situation as far as you are concerned, doesn't it? Either he admits he is another "lieing cheating sack of scum and doesn't deserve to play on the field" like Giambi or he is disrespectful of the game when he doesn't "come clean." Never a doubt in your mind that you might not be right?

[aloofman]

That's a high standard to live up to. I expect no less than your best effort next time you see the Giants. Ya' bum! :D :D

It's been a long while since the Dodgers had a player that inspired that kind of personal attention. Garvey and Drysdale made the grade, but not many after. Maybe Orel and Reggie Smith, but then they did the unthinkable and joined us. Of course, over the years we had Lasorda as our number one target, but that is a little different. We don't save our venom for any particular Dodger, but spread it around for the whole team. :p

Of course, now that you have Jeff Kent playing in Dodger blue we have a special case. :D



You know what's funny? I didn't appreciate how amusing Lasorda was until we had boring managers afterwards. I remember going to games where a Dodger player would get hurt and Tommy would come waddling out of the dugout. We'd cheer just because it was funny to see him run. I remember the old interview with Tommy about how when Brett Butler told him how much the Giants fans hated him. Tommy: "You have no idea how much I hate THEM!" Spit flies from his mouth. What a performance.

We took it for granted though because now there is zero entertainment value in seeing Tracy do anything at all. The guy is built like a crash-test dummy. And he has an annoying habit of speaking by asking himself questions. "Do I wish that Brad Penny's arm had stayed together? Sure."

Another thing that's screwy: the Dodger manager is friends with the Giants manager. WTF? :p

[aloofman]

I watched the press conference and I think he comes off worse on TV than in print. You can see his rage and lack of respect for the game, he doesn't get it that its not about him. To me he looked like an arrogant sob that only cares about himself and not the fans.

I don't see what the big deal is. Have you never seen a Bonds press conference before? He's always like that. There are some athletes that just don't get along with the media. And he made reasonable points about how little integrity Canseco has, how they're asking him the same questions over and over, how he doesn't know what's going to happen next.

I'm not a Bonds defender by any means, but this was a manufactured media event. This was all about the reporters hoping he would slip up and say something that would get them headlines.

[Sayhey]

Another thing that's screwy: the Dodger manager is friends with the Giants manager. WTF? :p

Yeah, just how does that work? I remember the days of the Marichal-Roseboro battles when players and managers took this rivalry seriously! :p

Truth be told, I do have to admit, even in my most Dodger hating moments, I couldn't get too angry with Koufax. Too nice a guy. Tommy, on the other hand, was just easy to hate. Of course, he loved the boos as much as Bonds does.

[acedickson]

Bonds not caring about the fans or the game? That's news to me! NOT.

He's always been a selfish arrogant player. It's obvious he's done "something" because you don't have a slender athletic build and then overnight put on 40-50lbs of muscle. C'mon his head looks like a bowling ball. He needs to have some humility like Giambi and admit he did it, it was wrong and then move on. He's probably worried about his stats having a cloud over them.

Besides steroids may make you hit the bal a few feet further but it doesn't make you as good a Bonds would've been anyways. There are many players taking steroids but it doesn't make them anywhere near as good as Bonds. I'm not even a fan of his but I do respect his game.

I am however ready for him to break Aaron's HR recordd so he'll retire and Pujols will get the respect he deserves. Bonds didn't deserve the MVP 2 out of the last 4 years IMO. Pujols should've got it in 2003 & 2004.

[MacNut]

If Bonds is so "innocent" as he claims why won't he just come clean and say "I've Never done steroids so you can stop asking." He hasn't done that and the fact that he avoids every question and claims that the media made it all up tells me that he is hiding something. At least Giambi had the guts to admit if you call it that to something. The season is not gonna get any better and the questions will only get worse until proof either way is given. You can say he has not been proven to taking steroids but id say his ties to BALCO is strong enough. I can also argue that he hasn't proven to not be taking steroids either.

[Sun Baked]

Well the super-agent has the approval of baseball to buy up to 20 percent of the Diamondback -- but Ken Kendrick (part of the group that took over the DBacks) must be the managing general partner.

Basically the team finally changed hands over something that happened about a year ago -- when Jerry Collangelo needed money for the team, and the group with the money asked for his share of the team.

[Sayhey]

Bonds not caring about the fans or the game? That's news to me! NOT.

He's always been a selfish arrogant player. It's obvious he's done "something" because you don't have a slender athletic build and then overnight put on 40-50lbs of muscle. C'mon his head looks like a bowling ball. He needs to have some humility like Giambi and admit he did it, it was wrong and then move on. He's probably worried about his stats having a cloud over them.

Besides steroids may make you hit the bal a few feet further but it doesn't make you as good a Bonds would've been anyways. There are many players taking steroids but it doesn't make them anywhere near as good as Bonds. I'm not even a fan of his but I do respect his game.

I am however ready for him to break Aaron's HR recordd so he'll retire and Pujols will get the respect he deserves. Bonds didn't deserve the MVP 2 out of the last 4 years IMO. Pujols should've got it in 2003 & 2004.

Ok a few points, Barry did not put on the muscle overnight or over a single off season. He put it on over the course of twelve years of year-round intense training. Whether that included steroids, I don't know, but it was a long term process. Arrogant, I give you. No doubt about it. Most great players are arrogant, but the few that aren't are refreshing. Selfish, I don't think so. For Barry it has always been about winning. He wants a World Series ring more than any record. Next, as much as I respect Pujols, who is feared more as a batter? Bonds, hands down it is Bonds. It is not only the homeruns or homeruns in game winning situations, but it is also how he changes the game.

I think the record number of walks and the situations in which Barry gets walked intentionally are in a class by themselves. When then Diamondbacks manager, Buck Showalter, walked him intentionally with the bases loaded, that showed me how much baseball managers and players respect Barry's talent. I've never seen that done to another player. Not Mays, not Aaron, not Mantle, not Robinson, or Clemente. I don't remember Williams and only saw players like Musial as a little kid, but I'd bet you'd have to go back to at least players of their calibre to have seen such a thing take place. It is not just that isolated instance either, Barry is routinely walked when it puts the winning or go ahead run in scoring position or on base. That is just against every unwritten rule I knew growing up. Pujols is a great player, but can you really say anything close to the same about him.

Lastly, one simple question. If the press hates Barry as much as it appears they do (it is obviously mutual), then why would they continue to vote him the MVP award unless they would look foolish not to do so? It's not as if there is a great underground cabal of sports writers trying to make sure Barry gets the award.

[Sayhey]

If Bonds is so "innocent" as he claims why won't he just come clean and say "I've Never done steroids so you can stop asking." He hasn't done that and the fact that he avoids every question and claims that the media made it all up tells me that he is hiding something. At least Giambi had the guts to admit if you call it that to something. The season is not gonna get any better and the questions will only get worse until proof either way is given. You can say he has not been proven to taking steroids but id say his ties to BALCO is strong enough. I can also argue that he hasn't proven to not be taking steroids either.

He has said many, many times he hasn't taken steroids, and there is no way to prove a negative. BALCO ties, assuming the government proves Anderson got steroids from them, should make you suspicious. It shouldn't make you sure that you know the truth about Barry's alleged use of the drugs. Why not take a breath and wait until we find out what went on in the trial to come?

[Koodauw]

I think the record number of walks and the situations in which Barry gets walked intentionally are in a class by themselves. When then Diamondbacks manager, Buck Showalter, walked him intentionally with the bases loaded, that showed me how much baseball managers and players respect Barry's talent. I've never seen that done to another player. Not Mays, not Aaron, not Mantle, not Robinson, or Clemente. I don't remember Williams and only saw players like Musial as a little kid, but I'd bet you'd have to go back to at least players of their calibre to have seen such a thing take place. It is not just that isolated instance either, Barry is routinely walked when it puts the winning or go ahead run in scoring position or on base. That is just against every unwritten rule I knew growing up. Pujols is a great player, but can you really say anything close to the same about him.


Last time I checked the award was most VALUABLE player. Not BEST OFFENSIVE HITTER. Great if Barry Roid gets walked. You could be walked everytime your at bat, but if you dont score runs, it means nothing. Walks alone doesn't = Valuable.

If you look at what Pujols meant to the cards, vs. what Barry meant to the Giants in those years, I think Pujols wins.

[Sayhey]

Last time I checked the award was most VALUABLE player. Not BEST OFFENSIVE HITTER. Great if Barry Roid gets walked. You could be walked everytime your at bat, but if you dont score runs, it means nothing. Walks alone doesn't = Valuable.

If you look at what Pujols meant to the cards, vs. what Barry meant to the Giants in those years, I think Pujols wins.

If we use your criteria, what an individual player meant to his team's success, again it isn't even close. Bonds wins. Look at the supporting cast in St. Louis vs. San Francisco. How many all stars on each team? Pujols has Edmonds, Rolen, Renteria, and later Walker. Where are the comparable supporting cast on the Giants? I like Grissom, Snow, Aureila, etc. but it's not the same. Barry has meant more to his team than any other player in either league.

[IJ Reilly]

You know what's funny? I didn't appreciate how amusing Lasorda was until we had boring managers afterwards. I remember going to games where a Dodger player would get hurt and Tommy would come waddling out of the dugout. We'd cheer just because it was funny to see him run. I remember the old interview with Tommy about how when Brett Butler told him how much the Giants fans hated him. Tommy: "You have no idea how much I hate THEM!" Spit flies from his mouth. What a performance.

We took it for granted though because now there is zero entertainment value in seeing Tracy do anything at all. The guy is built like a crash-test dummy. And he has an annoying habit of speaking by asking himself questions. "Do I wish that Brad Penny's arm had stayed together? Sure."

Another thing that's screwy: the Dodger manager is friends with the Giants manager. WTF? :p

This is so true. Lasorda was a true baseball man of the old school going back to McGraw, Stengel Durocher. I still love to hear him talk about the game. Tracy is his opposite number, the modern baseball technician. I suppose he's good enough on that score and respected by the players, but from a fan's standpoint, I'd rather watch the ground's crew drag the infield than listen to an interview with Jim Tracy.

The Dodger dugout does still have somebody in the Lasorda mold, and that's pitching coach Jim Colborn. He's a local guy I've met a couple of times. Very funny, a real character.

[IJ Reilly]

IJ, if you have the time watch (http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/index.jsp?c_id=sf) the press conference don't just read the transcript. I think Barry comes off much better when you see him than just reading a dry page of print.

I'll watch this when I get a chance, and let you know what I think. I promise to at least try to approach it with an open mind.

[aloofman]

Last time I checked the award was most VALUABLE player. Not BEST OFFENSIVE HITTER. Great if Barry Roid gets walked. You could be walked everytime your at bat, but if you dont score runs, it means nothing. Walks alone doesn't = Valuable.

If you look at what Pujols meant to the cards, vs. what Barry meant to the Giants in those years, I think Pujols wins.

Yes, it is "most valuable player". Without Pujols, the Cards of recent years would still have scored quite a few runs. Without Bonds, the Giants would have been one of the worst scoring teams in baseball. The Giants offense was good enough to win the pennant in 2002 even with a warm body called Benito Santiago hitting behind him.

As a Dodger fan, I've seen quite a few games involving Bonds over the last several years. He warps the game like no other player in history. Throughout the game, the commentators discuss when Bonds comes up next, what the pitcher's history is against Bonds, the critical importance of making sure he gets on with the bases empty, etc. His homer off Eric Gagne last year was the most dramatic April home run I've ever seen.

I do believe that Bonds will probably get the free-pass treatment longer than he deserves. He gets so few chances to swing that I think there will be a lag between when he deteriorates to a mere mortal and when the pitchers start treating him like one. But that day hasn't arrived yet. His slugging average is still out of sight. Right now he hits more homers per swing than anyone ever. It's not even close. And I have reason to complain because Beltre would have won MVP last season if Bonds were in the AL.

[MacNut]

Since Bonds has diluted the MVP award for years and if he is the best player in the sport never mind on the Giants than why can't he carry his team to a World Series Championship. If he was the most valuable than that would be the best team out west. If he is not on the team the Giants have the same chance of winning the pennant as they do with him.

[aloofman]

Since Bonds has diluted the MVP award for years and if he is the best player in the sport never mind on the Giants than why can't he carry his team to a World Series Championship. If he was the most valuable than that would be the best team out west. If he is not on the team the Giants have the same chance of winning the pennant as they do with him.

Wrong. Without Bonds, the Giants aren't even in contention. They would have trouble getting to .500. They have a completely different lineup without him. It's like night and day. If you think that a top player automatically catapults his team to a World Series title, you don't know much about baseball history. In fact, it's very common for teams with one superstar to not win it all. Like Don Mattingly with the mid-'80s Yankees. A good argument can be made that the recent 1996-2000 Yankees dynasty was the most balanced championship team ever, with no MVP winners at all.

The award is called "most valuable player," not "league's best player." Yankees fans should understand this very well, since some of their non-superstar players have been the recipient of numerous MVPs by virtue of playing for a division/pennant winner. (For example, Thurman Munson, Elston Howard, Phil Rizzuto, and Joe Gordon.) Typically when a player from a first-place team doesn't win it, it's because he had a standout season that was so much better than the top players on playoff teams. (For example, Cal Ripken, Don Mattingly, and Andre Dawson.) That's what Bonds has been doing recently. Before his recent hitting explosion -- however he did it -- Bonds won his early MVP awards while playing for first place teams in Pittsburgh and in SF in 1993.

[Sayhey]

Since Bonds has diluted the MVP award for years and if he is the best player in the sport never mind on the Giants than why can't he carry his team to a World Series Championship. If he was the most valuable than that would be the best team out west. If he is not on the team the Giants have the same chance of winning the pennant as they do with him.

I get it. It is not a "let's seriously talk baseball" thread, but it's a "let's trash Barry" thread. Sorry, MacNut, I mistook your purpose.

aloofman, excellent post. I would only argue that it is not always clear whether the sports writers are voting for the player most valuable to his team or the league's best player. A recent example of the latter can be seen in the selection of Alex Rodriguez in 2003 while playing for the last place Texas Rangers.

Also one minor correction, although it pains me to remember it, the Giants did not win the division in 1993 (Barry's first year with the Giants.) They did win over 100 games that year, but came in second to the Braves who had one of the most incredible second half sprints in baseball history (led by the newly acquired in a fire sale First Baseman Fred McGriff.) I will never forgive the Rockies for being unable to win one game from the Braves all year, including the last weekend of the season.

[IJ Reilly]

If only to throw another log on this fire... I'm told Barry has good reason to despise the sports press for pursuing him on the chemicals story. Now, remind me, who is it who votes him the MVP award year after year?

If you ask me, the man doth protest too much. And no, this isn't intended as a "Barry bash." I believe it's a legitimate question about heros and feet of clay.

[aloofman]

Also one minor correction, although it pains me to remember it, the Giants did not win the division in 1993 (Barry's first year with the Giants.) They did win over 100 games that year, but came in second to the Braves who had one of the most incredible second half sprints in baseball history (led by the newly acquired in a fire sale First Baseman Fred McGriff.) I will never forgive the Rockies for being unable to win one game from the Braves all year, including the last weekend of the season.

You're completely right and I feel ashamed for overlooking that. Of course I should remember because the Dodgers beat the Giants on the last day of the season (in a blowout, if I remember right) to give the Braves the division by one game. Most memorable was Matt Williams' tirade after the game on how much he hates the Dodgers. Oh the irony, what with Williams being originally from Socal and all!

(For purposes of this discussion, the Giants won over 100 games in 1993, so it was a real fluke that they didn't win the division. Bonds had a great season that year, and giving him the MVP made a hell of a lot more sense than, say, Terry Pendleton.)

In the interest of equal time, that game was payback for 1991, when it was the Dodgers that were in the close race with Atlanta, and the Giants ruined our chances on the last weekend of that season. This was Atlanta's first super second-half surge, their "worst-to-first" year, and the beginning of their "dynasty." So I like to think that the fact that Braves have been annoying us for so long is really the Giants' fault. :rolleyes:

[Sayhey]

You're completely right and I feel ashamed for overlooking that. Of course I should remember because the Dodgers beat the Giants on the last day of the season (in a blowout, if I remember right) to give the Braves the division by one game. Most memorable was Matt Williams' tirade after the game on how much he hates the Dodgers. Oh the irony, what with Williams being originally from Socal and all!

(For purposes of this discussion, the Giants won over 100 games in 1993, so it was a real fluke that they didn't win the division. Bonds had a great season that year, and giving him the MVP made a hell of a lot more sense than, say, Terry Pendleton.)

In the interest of equal time, that game was payback for 1991, when it was the Dodgers that were in the close race with Atlanta, and the Giants ruined our chances on the last weekend of that season. This was Atlanta's first super second-half surge, their "worst-to-first" year, and the beginning of their "dynasty." So I like to think that the fact that Braves have been annoying us for so long is really the Giants' fault. :rolleyes:

We up in SF call that '93 Giants-Dodger game simply the "Solomon Torres" game, after the rookie pitcher Dusty in his first year as manager entrusted with the Giants pennant hopes. It wasn't the only time Baker made such a bad decision. In general, I liked Dusty, but he stayed with pitchers and some players way too long. Livan Hernandez, Marvin Bernard, and Mark Gardener are just a few examples. As to Williams' "tirade" it is one of the reasons he is still a Giant favorite. You can't go wrong knocking the boys in blue. :D

[Sayhey]

I wouldn't want some folks in this thread to miss this,

Bonds debunks cap size rumor

Outfielder: Hat measurements same my whole career

By*Barry M. Bloom*/*MLB.com

SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. -- Giants slugger Barry Bonds told a pair of reporters in the clubhouse at Scottsdale Stadium on Thursday that any rumors about a change in his cap size are just that -- rumors.

The speculation his head has grown larger from alleged steroid use began to run rampant in 2001 when the then 37-year-old Bonds defied all odds and hit 73 home runs to break Mark McGwire's three-year-old record.

Now that he's on the brink of surpassing the career home-run marks held by Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron, the speculation that he has used some sort of performance-enhancing drugs has only become greater.

"What's all this about my head size? My hat size is the same today as when I started," said Bonds in a story that was posted late Friday on the Oakland Tribune's Web site. "My head hasn't grown. I've always been a 7-1/4 to a 7-3/8 my whole career. You can go check. Sometimes you get one and you sweat, it gets smaller, so you go a size up or a size down. Those things shrink when you sweat or they get wet during a season.

"I saw a 13-year-old kid on one of the news shows talking about my head size. How do they know? That kid hasn't seen 15 years of my career and he's talking about my head size. That's one of the saddest things, man. That's manipulation. They manipulated that kid."

Some athletes, including Jose Canseco in his recent book, have said that steroid use increases the size of the head, but causes other parts of the anatomy to shrivel.

Bonds said the latter hasn't happened, either.

"I can tell you (that other body parts) are the same size. They haven't shrunk. They're the same and work just the same as they always have," he said.... ;)

SF Giants.com (http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20050304&content_id=957134&vkey=spt2005news&fext=.jsp&c_id=sf)

[MacNut]

Don't forget this
Further fuel was added last year when parts of Bonds' grand jury testimony in the case against the Bay Area Laboratory Co-Operative (BALCO) were leaked to the San Francisco Chronicle. Bonds reportedly told the grand jury that in 2003 he had unknowingly used a cream that he later learned may have had a steroid base.

In another report, the newspaper said Bonds used an "undetectable" performance-enhancing drug during the 2003 baseball season. The Chronicle quoted Bonds' former personal trainer, Greg Anderson, from a telephone conversation that was secretly recorded and obtained by the newspaper.

Anderson was one of four people indicted in the investigation for tax evasion and illegally distributing steroids without prescriptions.

[Sayhey]

Don't forget this

I won't. But then I'm not the one who claims to know everything about Barry's alleged used of drugs. Say, how's Sheff and Jason doing this spring? ;)

[MacNut]

I won't. But then I'm not the one who claims to know everything about Barry's alleged used of drugs. Say, how's Sheff and Jason doing this spring? ;)I haven't seen Sheff play yet but the game I watched Thursday Giambi had 2 walks and thrown out once. Hey by the way hows Bonds doing this spring. :rolleyes: oh wait, he's not playing this spring. :rolleyes:

[Sayhey]

I haven't seen Sheff play yet but the game I watched Thursday Giambi had 2 walks and thrown out once. Hey by the way hows Bonds doing this spring. :rolleyes: oh wait, he's not playing this spring. :rolleyes:

Yes, Barry is still out, but you will be happy to know he is progressing well and looks like he may be ready for opening day. Shall we speculate on which of the three players has better numbers at the end of the year? :D Gary is still a great force at the plate, what do you think?

[MacNut]

From what I've heard his shoulder is ready for the season and as long as that stays healthy I don't see why he can't have a spectacular season. The big thing with Sheff are the contract talks that are supposed to take place.

[MacNut]

So Thursday was the start of full steroid testing in MLB so we shall see if anyone tests positive. I have to believe that at least one big star will be found to be using as the temptations are to great to not have big numbers. While the first offense isn't that bad the public scrutiny will be the big reason to not use steroids.

[Sayhey]

OK, since Spring Training is now under way here are my predictions for how the season looks this far out.

NL West
1 - San Francisco Giants - they did what they needed in the off season to put them deep into the post season. Bonds and Schmidt must stay healthy.
2 - San Diego Padres - a very good young club, especially in their pitching staff and at short.
3 - Los Angeles Dodgers - last year's champs lost too much in the off season. Their competitiveness rests on the fragile arm of Brad Penny, the even more fragile body of J.D. Drew, and Derek Lowe pitching like he did in the playoffs for the whole season.
4 - Arizona Diamondbacks - they improved themselves more than any other club, but it is still a long way to the top.
5 - Colorado Rockies - other than Todd Helton this is just a very bad team.

NL East
1 - Florida Marlins - with the late addition of Carlos Delgado, this is again a very dangerous team. Look for Mota to have a breakout year as a closer and the starting rotation to get even better.
2 - Atlanta Braves - they won't win the division this year, but with the addition of Hudson and Smoltz back in the rotation, they will find a way to compete.
3 - Philadelphia Phillies - with just the removal of Larry Bowa this team gets better. With Thome, Abreu, and Rollins this will be an exciting team to watch - just not quite good enough.
4 - New York Mets - Will Beltran be as good as he was in the playoffs? I don't think so, more like the .260 hitter he was in the regular season. Still a great addition, but not enough to make the post-season.
5 - Washington Nationals - nobody will care in D.C. that they aren't that good as fans flock to see the new team.

NL Central
1 - St. Louis Cardinals - Still the great run producers and they added Mulder. A very good team.
2 - Chicago Cubs - a distant second. Nomar better bounce back in a big way for these guys to challenge.
3 - Cincinnati Reds - the explosive bats in Cincinnati need more pitching.
4 - Houston Astros - suffered more losses than any other team. If Pettitte or Clemens falter with injuries this team could drop to the bottom.
5 - Pittsburgh Pirates - Pirates and Brewers fight it out for last place every year. This won't be any different.
6 - Milwaukee Brewers - the Colorado Rockies of the Central Division.

Wild Card - Atlanta Braves

Later for the AL and post season picks. :D

[Sayhey]

From what I've heard his shoulder is ready for the season and as long as that stays healthy I don't see why he can't have a spectacular season. The big thing with Sheff are the contract talks that are supposed to take place.

Glad to hear it. He has an amazingly quick bat when healthy. As to steroids, I agree somebody is going to get caught, big star or bench player. If more than seven percent get caught when they are told the test is coming, why should this year be any different?

[jmsait19]

Last time I checked the award was most VALUABLE player. Not BEST OFFENSIVE HITTER. Great if Barry Roid gets walked. You could be walked everytime your at bat, but if you dont score runs, it means nothing. Walks alone doesn't = Valuable.

If you look at what Pujols meant to the cards, vs. what Barry meant to the Giants in those years, I think Pujols wins.

As much as it pains me to say, Bonds probably still deserved the award.

Now I am as big a Cards fan as anyone. I will have season tickets this year. My ex-girlfriend always wanted to go to school in Florida and told me I should move down there. I said no, the Cardinals are here. So don't think I wasn't rooting for Pujols.

[aloofman]

If Bonds is so "innocent" as he claims why won't he just come clean and say "I've Never done steroids so you can stop asking." He hasn't done that and the fact that he avoids every question and claims that the media made it all up tells me that he is hiding something. At least Giambi had the guts to admit if you call it that to something. The season is not gonna get any better and the questions will only get worse until proof either way is given. You can say he has not been proven to taking steroids but id say his ties to BALCO is strong enough. I can also argue that he hasn't proven to not be taking steroids either.

He said over and over that he never took steroids, just like every other major league player that was ever asked. Let's not pretend that Giambi is any more virtuous than Bonds. None of them would have ever admitted anything if they hadn't been under oath at the time. (By the way, the fact that any of that grand jury testimony has been made public before the investigation was completed is illegal and someone should be prosecuted for it.) His ties to BALCO are pretty strong, and it seems likely that he had artificial help of some kind. But anything that was against baseball's rules at the time? That other players aren't taking too? Nobody knows.

My feeling is that baseball has to adopt Olympic-level penalties for drug violations to restore legitimacy to the players' performances. That wouldn't be perfect, but at least it would be stringent and force players to really make a major effort to avoid detection.

[aloofman]

From what I've heard his shoulder is ready for the season and as long as that stays healthy I don't see why he can't have a spectacular season. The big thing with Sheff are the contract talks that are supposed to take place.

As a Dodger fan who watched him play for us and other teams, I can tell you that Sheffield will be fine until he starts grumbling he isn't being respected (i.e., paid) enough. He's a tremendously gifted hitter who's as mature as the average 12-year-old.

[aloofman]

I'll take that bait.

NL West
1 - Los Angeles Dodgers - Deeper and with more contract and position flexibility than last year, which makes July improvements likely. The big unknown is violatility. If Kent and Bradley decide to be crazy, it could sink them.
2 - San Francisco Giants - Look pretty good on paper, but the odds of their old players staying healthy are slim. If Bonds or Schmidt go down, they have no chance to finish first.
3 - San Diego Padres - Pretty good rotation, but their hitters were psyched out by Petco last season. It remains to be seen if they can adjust because the offense can't rely on Nevin's health and Loretta having another career year.
4 - Arizona Diamondbacks - Won't be as terrible if only because monumentally bad teams almost always get a little better. But they paid a lot of money for not very much help.
5 - Colorado Rockies - Still no solution found to make a Coors field team a contender.

NL East
1 - Florida Marlins - A very good all-around team. My only doubt is that this would finally break the string of a team that has defied doubters for years. That would be the
2 - Atlanta Braves - Don't know if they have the offense or rotation this year, but they've proven us all wrong before.
3 - Philadelphia Phillies - Completely agree that the removal of Bowa makes them a legitimate wild card contender. And is there a more unsung and complementary all-around player than Bobby Abreu? Every team should want that guy.
4 - New York Mets - The same crazy combination of overpaid mercenaries we're used to seeing. Someday they'll learn the error of their ways and the rest of the NL East will be sorry.
5 - Washington Nationals - outside chance that they'll be better than the Mets if everyting goes their way. But I'm looking forward to the next televised game at RFK, with that wacky upper-deck sombrero.

NL Central
1 - St. Louis Cardinals - The only major downgrade was Epstein for Renteria. That is one powerful lineup. They can win 7-8 games less than last year and still win the division.
2 - Chicago Cubs - Don't see how they replace the bats of Sosa and Alou. But the rotation will keep them in more games than they deserve.
3 - Houston Astros - Lost a lot of bats, but in their bandbox stadium they will probably still score. In another division they'd be lower.
4 - Cincinnati Reds - I don't see these guys getting it together because of their lack of pitching.
5 - Pittsburgh Pirates - I really wish these guys could get it together because their stadium looks so nice. But they just don't know how to get or develop good players these days.
6 - Milwaukee Brewers - Not enough bad things can happen to Bud's team. It's only a matter of time before someone makes them an offer for Sheets that they can't refuse.

Wild Card - Atlanta Braves or Giants. Florida and St. Louis have to be considered the favorites for the pennant at this point.

[Sayhey]

My feeling is that baseball has to adopt Olympic-level penalties for drug violations to restore legitimacy to the players' performances. That wouldn't be perfect, but at least it would be stringent and force players to really make a major effort to avoid detection.

My own feeling is the penalties in the new agreement are fine, the problem is in what drugs aren't tested for. I understand HGH can't be detected in a urine test (the only kind allowed) and there are no test for amphetamines. The latter may be more of a problem than steroids.

I also must say I feel very uncomfortable about urging others to give up their constitutional rights against unreasonable searches. However, I think the Player's union screwed up badly on this issue. Previously, the owners had a situation that they could wink and nod about drug use that benefitted them financially, while Players had huge incentives to risk their health and lives through the abuse of these chemicals. In that case, the union should have been fighting to change all of this.

aloofman, great predictions, although obviously wrong in the NL West. ;)
Could you repost them here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=113837&page=1&pp=25)?