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jersey10
Sep 2, 2010, 11:32 AM
I am a huge fan of the existing Apple TVs (I have 2) and was looking forward to the announcement yesterday. But I am very disappointed. Here are my main problems with the new model:

-No buying videos or TV shows - This is my biggest problem with the new box. I, like many people, often want to buy movies/tv shows, especially if you have kids who like to watch the same movie repeatedly. This option is no longer available. Moreover, this change to an all rental model, does not only affect purchasers of the new AppleTV, as presumably the ability to buy movies and TV shows is going to no longer be available to users of the old Apple TV. Do we know for sure that this is the case?

-No internal storage - Streaming is not always stutter free for most people. It is for this reason that I hooked up an external hard drive to my existing AppleTVs, so I don't have to deal with streaming. But even without an external hard drive, it is better to have at least a small internal hard drive on the Apple TV to store material so you don't have to rely on streaming and don't have to always have your computer on to view your ripped stuff in iTtunes. Hopefully, ATV Flash or someone will quickly come out with a hack allowing you to hook an external hard drive to the new Apple TV.

-Ripped movies now will be listed under "Computers" rather than in the Movies tab under "My Movies" or in the TV tab under "My TV shows." Much less clean, plus I'm not sure yet how things are going to be organized under the "Computers" tab - will the interface break up TV shows, movies, music, etc. Regardless, the existing way was better.

-No Pandora (or any of the other channels), which you get with the Roku box. This makes the addition of Netflix less interesting to me, as I am better off just sticking with my existing Roku box (which anyone else can now get for $69 I believe).

I just hope that Apple continues to support the existing Apple TV in future versions of iTunes, as it is a much better, more useful piece of equipment for my purposes.



ugp
Sep 2, 2010, 11:36 AM
Even though I did order a new AppleTV, mainly to get it a try and see if I like it.

I wish they would support MKV playback. AVI I could care less for.

scgf
Sep 2, 2010, 11:54 AM
I am a huge fan of the existing Apple TVs (I have 2) and was looking forward to the announcement yesterday. But I am very disappointed. Here are my main problems with the new model:

-No buying videos or TV shows - This is my biggest problem with the new box. I, like many people, often want to buy movies/tv shows, especially if you have kids who like to watch the same movie repeatedly. This option is no longer available. Moreover, this change to an all rental model, does not only affect purchasers of the new AppleTV, as presumably the ability to buy movies and TV shows is going to no longer be available to users of the old Apple TV. Do we know for sure that this is the case?

-No internal storage - Streaming is not always stutter free for most people. It is for this reason that I hooked up an external hard drive to my existing AppleTVs, so I don't have to deal with streaming. But even without an external hard drive, it is better to have at least a small internal hard drive on the Apple TV to store material so you don't have to rely on streaming and don't have to always have your computer on to view your ripped stuff in iTtunes. Hopefully, ATV Flash or someone will quickly come out with a hack allowing you to hook an external hard drive to the new Apple TV.

-Ripped movies now will be listed under "Computers" rather than in the Movies tab under "My Movies" or in the TV tab under "My TV shows." Much less clean, plus I'm not sure yet how things are going to be organized under the "Computers" tab - will the interface break up TV shows, movies, music, etc. Regardless, the existing way was better.


I am a little confused by what you say.

I also have a current AppleTV, the model with the smaller hard drive. I made a point from day one not to use the internal drive for any purpose apart from renting movies. Anything I buy I store on a firewire drive attached to my iMac, delete it from iTunes, and drag it back in again, holding the alt key so the datafile stays on the external drive, but the AppleTV sees it as a normal movie or TV show available to stream. I do the same with ripped movies & TV shows.

These items are configurable in iTunes so that Apple TV sees them as either a movie or a TV show and thus appear in Apple TV under the correct tab.

Why do you think it will be any different with the new Apple TV? Have I missed something?

Regarding the streaming, we have to assume Apple will have a reasonable sized buffer onboard to allow for network glitches.

It looks like I have in fact been using my Apple TV in the same way as the new one is designed to be used. I have also ordered a new model because the price is so reasonable.

jersey10
Sep 2, 2010, 12:25 PM
I am a little confused by what you say.

I also have a current AppleTV, the model with the smaller hard drive. I made a point from day one not to use the internal drive for any purpose apart from renting movies. Anything I buy I store on a firewire drive attached to my iMac, delete it from iTunes, and drag it back in again, holding the alt key so the datafile stays on the external drive, but the AppleTV sees it as a normal movie or TV show available to stream. I do the same with ripped movies & TV shows.

These items are configurable in iTunes so that Apple TV sees them as either a movie or a TV show and thus appear in Apple TV under the correct tab.

Why do you think it will be any different with the new Apple TV? Have I missed something?

Regarding the streaming, we have to assume Apple will have a reasonable sized buffer onboard to allow for network glitches.

It looks like I have in fact been using my Apple TV in the same way as the new one is designed to be used. I have also ordered a new model because the price is so reasonable.

I have the external hard drive hooked up to the AppleTV itself, because I don't want to have to keep iTunes open and because I regularly had trouble with the AppleTV losing contact with iTunes, stuttering video when streaming, etc. (lots of people have had similar problems - there are a bunch of threads on it). Hooking up an external hard drive to the AppleTv prevents you from ever having to stream content as it all just stored on that external hard drive right next to the AppleTV.

Scorpio12345
Sep 2, 2010, 12:56 PM
Actually you might still be able to purchase movies, but you'd need to do so on iTunes on your Mac/PC and then stream it to the new ATV.

jersey10
Sep 2, 2010, 01:27 PM
Actually you might still be able to purchase movies, but you'd need to do so on iTunes on your Mac/PC and then stream it to the new ATV.

That's one of the problems. I don't want to have to stream.

kurzz
Sep 2, 2010, 01:45 PM
When Steve said people don't want a computer, he was right. But now with the new Apple TV, I now must depend on a computer if I want watch movies I already own. With the old Apple TV, I can store those movies on its hard drive and watch them even when my computer is off.

Scorpio12345
Sep 2, 2010, 01:48 PM
When Steve said people don't want a computer, he was right. But now with the new Apple TV, I now must depend on a computer if I want watch movies I already own. With the old Apple TV, I can store those movies on its hard drive and watch them even when my computer is off.

Haha that's a good point...

They should at least allow that USB port to connect to external hard drives. Seriously, even the simplest of TV-connected boxes have that feature...

tdmac
Sep 2, 2010, 02:01 PM
Haha that's a good point...

They should at least allow that USB port to connect to external hard drives. Seriously, even the simplest of TV-connected boxes have that feature...

My thoughts are that this feature will come in the future. My guess is that it was done as a streaming only device to funnel sales to the new rental model and thus use the demand to put pressure on the studios to offer the same as FOX and ABC.

ccmartin
Sep 2, 2010, 02:15 PM
Actually you might still be able to purchase movies, but you'd need to do so on iTunes on your Mac/PC and then stream it to the new ATV.

The problem with this is that you have to wait for the whole show/movie to download before you can start watching. One of the beautiful things about the original atv is that you can start watching immediately after purchasing.

I don't mind that the new atv has no storage if that helps get the price down, but why take away purchasing? All they'd have to do is require syncing with a mac before a show could be purchased. As it is, the new ATV adds tv show rentals, but takes away purchasing. One step forward, one big step back. Guess I'll keep my old one for now.

yoda13
Sep 2, 2010, 02:25 PM
I believe those of us with the older Apple TVs can still purchase whatever content we want, including TV shows, we just simply have to stream it to the Apple TV, and I believe that is true with the new ones as well...:)

jersey10
Sep 2, 2010, 02:44 PM
I believe those of us with the older Apple TVs can still purchase whatever content we want, including TV shows, we just simply have to stream it to the Apple TV, and I believe that is true with the new ones as well...:)

Yes, but with the new ones you have to buy it on your computer and then keep your computer on and iTunes running in order for that purchased content to stream. With the old model, you could buy things on the AppleTV itself, right from your couch, with no need to do anything from your computer and no need to stream. Far more convenient the old way.

yoda13
Sep 2, 2010, 02:47 PM
Yes, but with the new ones you have to buy it on your computer and then keep your computer on and iTunes running in order for that purchased content to stream. With the old model, you could buy things on the AppleTV itself, right from your couch, with no need to do anything from your computer and no need to stream. Far more convenient the old way.

I agree:) I was afraid that this functionality would be lost when I first started hearing about the rumors of the new ones and its potential specs...

smetvid
Sep 2, 2010, 03:04 PM
The main problem I still have is the lack of 60i or 60p framerates. Sure it works great for 24p movies and TV shows but it still falls short for those who want to use it as an alternative to Blu-ray for their own home video they shoot. A lot of people shoot 60i interlaced video and rendering a 720p 30p version is nowhere near the same level of quality in terms of resolution or temporal resolution. 30p may be fine for internet video but not so much on the TV. Blu-ray has full support for 720p 60p and 1080i 60i which are the proper HD standards. 720p 30p is not a HD standard.

If Apple wants to really kill Blu-ray then they really need to start offering higher framerates for those who are looking for an alternative to Blu-ray. I know a lot of wedding videographers that would love to deliver to an Apple TV instead of a Blu-ray disc but the framerate limitations are a big problem.

I can kind of understand how hard it would be for a device like this to support 60i since interlaced is a pain but it could of at least had 60p support for 1280x720 video. Then Apple could have promoted it as the alternative to Blu-ray.

Bevz
Sep 2, 2010, 03:13 PM
My thoughts are that this feature will come in the future. My guess is that it was done as a streaming only device to funnel sales to the new rental model and thus use the demand to put pressure on the studios to offer the same as FOX and ABC.

Don't hold your breath... We all thought they'd allow the USB to be used with a software update on the v1 box; they never did...

I'm not even sure this new ATV even does what they want it to do... As kurzz says, now you HAVE to own a desktop machine even though they are trying to sell it to non-techies!! They'd have been better off just allowing an external drive to be plugged in... even non-techies can buy one of them and plug it in... and you wouldn't need a desktop machine permanently on...

Like the OP, i have a 1TB external drive attached to my v1 ATV and sync everything; it even acts as my iTunes backup essentially... great bit of kit. Sadly, i won't be buying the new one until they hack it and give me back my external storage and syncing... which they won't.

I'm sad to say it, but Apple has proved they simply do not understand the users of this device... Steve said they didn't sell a lot of apple TV's, but the people that did buy them loved them... Yes, that's us... So why piss us off so much by not evolving the machine AT ALL... It may be cheaper and smaller but it hasn't moved on... in fact, it does a lot less than it did :(

If they allowed optional local storage via the USB slot and put app store apps on it, i think they would have had a KILLER device and created a market that doesn't even exist yet, but sadly they didn't see it... all they did was turn it into a rental box and a second rate streamer, nothing more :(

The only hope is that a software update could give us all these things... But haven't we been here before? :(

OldSchoolMacGuy
Sep 2, 2010, 04:29 PM
If you aren't happy with the new Apple TV, don't buy it. There are plenty of other media streaming devices on the market and more coming to the market soon. Get one that meets your needs better. I'm sure Apple will get by without your $99.

Michael CM1
Sep 3, 2010, 12:28 AM
That's one of the problems. I don't want to have to stream.

You will stream and you will like it!

I'm still waiting for Apple to join the now and put Blu-ray Disc drives in ANY Mac. I think Steve is on a power trip from killing the floppy. The floppy disk was worthless and was moreso killed by flash drives. BD is hardly worthless and has MUCH better quality than the Apple TV's bestest HD. Considering almost every non-crap BD player has Netflix and YouTube built-in and also plays those hundreds of video discs people have sitting around, why would people buy this new thing?

This is just so weird coming from Apple. I get the sense that the people designing this stuff don't watch TV and movies like the rest of us. They must not have heard of DTS before. You know, the audio technology that kicked Dolby Digital's butt about 10 years ago. Now disc people are onto all sorts of better codecs, but Apple thinks DD is something to brag about.

I'll also agree with everybody who is underwhelmed at the lack of apps and storage. How much space and money would 8GB of flash storage cost? Run iOS on the thing and you could make up the difference on people buying ATV apps.

As it is, most people are probably going to be driven by newer TVs with apps and BD players with the same. I wish Apple would go the app-on-a-TV route instead of putting out some mostly useless box.

GermanSuplex
Sep 3, 2010, 01:09 AM
I can see you clicking on "Computers" and then once you select a computer to stream from, your media shows up like normal under the appropriate headings (movies under movies, etc.)

Clicking your computer is sort of like the switch that turns it on, rather than it always being there ala the current ATV.

I also think the rental-only model is a preview of the cloud-based ownership that will likely be coming. Purchase a season of TV on your PC, iPhone or iPad, and it will be available to stream via the ATV without syncing. I could be wrong, but it makes sense.

newagemac
Sep 3, 2010, 01:13 AM
I'm not even sure this new ATV even does what they want it to do... As kurzz says, now you HAVE to own a desktop machine even though they are trying to sell it to non-techies!!

That's not true at all. You can rent movies and tv shows on the new Apple TV and don't need a computer for that at all. If you have content on a computer that you want view on your TV then yes you will need that computer. But that's a fairly obvious requirement to even a non techy.

However, you actually don't even need a real computer on to play other content you own or have access to like videos, movies, music, and podcasts. Just send it from your iphone, ipod touch, or iPad to your AppleTV using the new Airplay feature and there ya go!

rorschach
Sep 3, 2010, 02:16 AM
That's not true at all. You can rent movies and tv shows on the new Apple TV and don't need a computer for that at all. If you have content on a computer that you want view on your TV then yes you will need that computer. But that's a fairly obvious requirement to even a non techy.

However, you actually don't even need a real computer on to play other content you own or have access to like videos, movies, music, and podcasts. Just send it from your iphone, ipod touch, or iPad to your AppleTV using the new Airplay feature and there ya go!

You can only rent shows from ABC and Fox. That's it. What happens if I want to download a show from, say, CBS? I have to go to my computer, buy it there, *wait for it to download*, then stream it. On a 1st gen Apple TV, you find the show, click Buy, and it starts playing almost immediately (no waiting for the 1GB+ HD show to download) *right on the Apple TV.* No computer involved.

AirPlay streaming sounds nice, until you realize that in order to do it your iPhone/iPad/iPod gets taken over and can't be used while you're doing it. I can't put on a movie on my Apple TV and, say, check my mail on my iPhone without stopping the movie. As far as I know, you're not going to be able to stream in the background (except maybe music).

ovrlrd
Sep 3, 2010, 02:40 AM
AirPlay streaming sounds nice, until you realize that in order to do it your iPhone/iPad/iPod gets taken over and can't be used while you're doing it. I can't put on a movie on my Apple TV and, say, check my mail on my iPhone without stopping the movie. As far as I know, you're not going to be able to stream in the background (except maybe music).

I might be wrong but maybe the iOS multitasking stuff will let you put it in the background? I suppose that would end up pausing the video though like it does now so I guess you are right. Not really a big deal because I don't see watching an entire full length movie with the feature, for me it is going to be more used for sharing home videos/photos and that kind of thing.

spacepower7
Sep 3, 2010, 02:54 AM
And that's Apple's fault that CBS doesn't see the future? Email their CEO and post on their forums about their lack of innovation.

It is what it is..... NBC left for awhile and then they came back.... Maybe not now since they are being bought by Comcast.

Or just torrent? Not advocating it but its popularity would demise if the media companies were proactive and provided other affordable solutions. And don't get me started on regional/country licensing.

rayward
Sep 3, 2010, 09:49 AM
AirPlay streaming sounds nice, until you realize that in order to do it your iPhone/iPad/iPod gets taken over and can't be used while you're doing it. I can't put on a movie on my Apple TV and, say, check my mail on my iPhone without stopping the movie. As far as I know, you're not going to be able to stream in the background (except maybe music).

I suspect that iOS4's background multitasking will allow the streaming of media to an ATV2 to continue while working on other things. BUT...I don't have HD versions of movies on my iPhone, I have a scaled-to-iPhone version on my iPhone. The HD version is on my Mac, so I'm going to have to stream from that. Plus, an iPhone's processor is going to be a little busy streaming media so even if you can multitask, it isn't likely to be very snappy.

Lastly, if you're buying a movie on your iPhone, you're still going to have to wait for it to fully download before you can begin streaming to your ATV2.

The more I think about this "rental only" model for the new unit, the more I hate it. How hard would it have been to have the rental capability direct on the ATV, and a purchase model that requires an active and connected Mac/PC to act as the HDD? That wouldn't be a slick as the v1 set-up, but it would be an acceptable workaround for most people.

gugy
Sep 3, 2010, 09:55 AM
When Steve said people don't want a computer, he was right. But now with the new Apple TV, I now must depend on a computer if I want watch movies I already own. With the old Apple TV, I can store those movies on its hard drive and watch them even when my computer is off.

LOL
So true, actually when I was watching the stream when SJ said this and that HD won it all I was so excite that maybe two of my requests would finally be granted:

1080p
External drive support

Sadly after the keynote I figured out looking at the specs page we were back to square one...:mad:

sandman42
Sep 3, 2010, 10:14 AM
Moreover, this change to an all rental model, does not only affect purchasers of the new AppleTV, as presumably the ability to buy movies and TV shows is going to no longer be available to users of the old Apple TV. Do we know for sure that this is the case?

It's not the case. Apparently you will still be able to purchase content (http://www.macrumors.com/2010/09/02/apple-confirms-no-software-update-for-original-apple-tv/) with the original :apple:TV.

cdavis11
Sep 3, 2010, 11:17 AM
-Ripped movies now will be listed under "Computers" rather than in the Movies tab under "My Movies" or in the TV tab under "My TV shows." Much less clean, plus I'm not sure yet how things are going to be organized under the "Computers" tab - will the interface break up TV shows, movies, music, etc. Regardless, the existing way was better.


This is my main concern. I stream everything, so internal storage is no big deal for me.

But finding that streamed content *might* have gotten a little funky. As the original poster points out, streamed content shows up in "my movies" - and it shows up with cover art and other meta information if the Apple TV/Itunes pairing is set up as sync, with syncing turned off.

I hope finding my local content isn't going to take more than a few clicks - that's a surprise coming from Apple...they may have just added a step or two to my living room "work flow".

If I can stream hulu plus from my Iphone4, then cable is gone...if I can't, it may finally be time to do the mini/plex shuffle and be done with it. I just wish Front Row could get a makeover, or Plex the ability to play Itunes protected/purchased movies natively.

jaw04005
Sep 4, 2010, 11:55 PM
Ripped movies now will be listed under "Computers" rather than in the Movies tab under "My Movies" or in the TV tab under "My TV shows." Much less clean, plus I'm not sure yet how things are going to be organized under the "Computers" tab - will the interface break up TV shows, movies, music, etc. Regardless, the existing way was better

This gripes me the most.

We already went through this with the Apple Take 2 update, where they put your purchased content at the bottom of the menu selection list. With the 3.0 software update, your purchased content is back where it logically should be.

Looks like with the new Apple TV will be organized like 2.0 but worse.

Minimum # of clicks to see list of purchased movies from the start-up menu

Apple TV 1.0 − 1
Apple TV 2.0 − 7
Apple TV 3.0 − 1
New Apple TV - 5


As for the new Apple TV, we’ll know the future of this product once the first units ship and someone completes a tear down.

It has a lot of potential, but if it ships with anything less than 8GB of flash memory — it’s clearly the same hobby strategy they’ve been trying to push since 2006 except this time they’ll market it as an iPad/iPhone accessory.

Jobs once said he hoped the Apple TV would someday be the fourth leg of Apple’s stool. However, a lot has changed since that statement in 2006 and now — particularly Apple’s relationships with content providers.

zedsdead
Sep 5, 2010, 06:33 AM
This gripes me the most.

We already went through this with the Apple Take 2 update, where they put your purchased content at the bottom of the menu selection list. With the 3.0 software update, your purchased content is back where it logically should be.

Looks like with the new Apple TV will be organized like 2.0 but worse.

Minimum # of clicks to see list of purchased movies from the start-up menu

Apple TV 1.0 − 1
Apple TV 2.0 − 7
Apple TV 3.0 − 1
New Apple TV - 5


As for the new Apple TV, we’ll know the future of this product once the first units ship and someone completes a tear down.

It has a lot of potential, but if it ships with anything less than 8GB of flash memory — it’s clearly the same hobby strategy they’ve been trying to push since 2006 except this time they’ll market it as an iPad/iPhone accessory.

Jobs once said he hoped the Apple TV would someday be the fourth leg of Apple’s stool. However, a lot has changed since that statement in 2006 and now — particularly Apple’s relationships with content providers.

This is what bothers me the most. 3.0 also gave us the most recents above each section, which I also used extensively. I am afraid those will be gone as well.

CalMin
Sep 5, 2010, 09:00 AM
Despite all these complaints, many of which I agree with, the thing is just $99. $99! Nice.

CLuv
Sep 6, 2010, 11:28 AM
$99 makes it a very nice device. I own the original TV since '07 but now my library has grown too large for the device itself considering all the music and movies I buy, not taking into account all the DVDs I've converted for use with my TV. Everything is now on my HP MediaSmart Server EX490 and streams over 802.11n without a hiccup. (Granted the base Celeron processor blows, so I dropped in a 3.06Ghz Wolfdale)

Have Home Sharing enabled on my MacBook, my fiance's MacBook Pro, and on the HP MSS. I buy something automatically copied without my having to deal with it manually. Converted DVDs moved into iTunes gets copied, super easy.

I would much rather stream then worry about am I out of room on my 40GB built in drive. Instead of doing hardware hacks on the TV to give it more storage with an external, the HP MSS allows me to make a change to the iTunes installer and know that my library is copied across the drives in the server if a drive were to fail. Running iTunes 10 on all devices.

Renting shows finally makes it worth it, I would much rather rent a show then buy it. (Unless it is the complete Chappelle's Show which I bought through iTunes). I think more studios will follow, but it will take some time on the renting.

Sure I have Pandora running on my current TV, but I can now pop that into the bedroom if I don't want to listen to my extensive personal library, and if I want to watch a movie in the bedroom I can do it now from the HP MSS. The living room is mostly for movies on my system, so for $99 it's a nice addition for my purpose.