"I'll be Back" for Christmas

[stubeeef]

Well this was refreshing! (http://www.sacunion.com/pages/state_capitol/articles/917)
Christmas is BACK!!!!! and in a blue state, wow!

[Xtremehkr]

The Fakinator, all he wants for christmas is to be Prez. Probably get it too, eventually. Why not, politics have become a joke lately.

[themadchemist]

What's so refreshing about it? Did Davis's decision submerge California in a sweltering sesspool of immorality from which Ahnold's gesture has lifted it?

[stubeeef]

It was someone taking the X out of Xmas and not pandering to every politically correct phrase around. What in heavens name is so offensive about the word CHRISTMAS or the phrase CHRISTMAS TREE!

Can't we just say those two simple words without a protest!

[dotnina]

I'd rather see it called a Christmas tree, because that's what it's called. There are songs about Christmas trees. Before this year, I'd never even heard anyone call it a "holiday tree."

But Stubeef -- what's with the exclamation marks and all? We still had Christmas here in California all along. I think it was silly to call it a "holiday tree," but I don't really feel any different now that Arnold has changed what he calls it.

-Edit-
Nevermind, I see you posted while I was typing my response.

[Rower_CPU]

It was someone taking the X out of Xmas and not pandering to every politically correct phrase around. What in heavens name is so offensive about the word CHRISTMAS or the phrase CHRISTMAS TREE!

Can't we just say those two simple words without a protest!

I think that's one way to spin it - another is that Davis made the celebration more inclusionary of those who celebrate other holidays at this time of year (e.g. Hannukah, Kwanzaa, etc.). Though the tradition of the tree is most closely linked to Christmas, I don't see why it's a bad thing to make the celebration non-faith specific.

[stubeeef]

Irregardless of your belief system, if the picture of it was in a dictionary, it would be called a Christmas Tree! So lets call it by it's name.

I have no problem with phrases like " happy holidays"

but what is a holiday menorah?

I can't stand it when PC goes hog wild.

[IJ Reilly]

I can't stand it when PC goes hog wild.

Really? I don't recall you objecting to it very much when I cited examples of right wing political correctness.

[stubeeef]

Really? I don't recall you objecting to it very much when I cited examples of right wing political correctness.

Then I am remiss. Cause it is out of control again.

[mactastic]

Irregardless of your belief system, if the picture of it was in a dictionary, it would be called a Christmas Tree! So lets call it by it's name.

I have no problem with phrases like " happy holidays"

but what is a holiday menorah?

I can't stand it when PC goes hog wild.

It was called a Solstice Tree before the Christians got their hands on it. I know you want us to respect the Christian foundations of this country, will you in turn respect the Pagan foundations of the Tree?

[stubeeef]

It was called a Solstice Tree before the Christians got their hands on it. I know you want us to respect the Christian foundations of this country, will you in turn respect the Pagan foundations of the Tree?

Sorry, I wasn't aware the pagans put lights and tinsel on their trees. Did they get allot of shiney bulbs from China/Walmart too!

Give it a break, we don't call cars buggies, they moved up to cars now.

[themadchemist]

Sorry, I wasn't aware the pagans put lights and tinsel on their trees. Did they get allot of shiney bulbs from China/Walmart too!

Give it a break, we don't call cars buggies, they moved up to cars now.

Sorry, I wasn't aware that Christianity spoke of fundamental freedoms and equality of all mankind. Did they add in some chapters from Locke and Voltaire too!

Give it a break, we don't call the Constitution the Bible, they moved up to the Constitution now.

[stubeeef]

Sorry, I wasn't aware that Christianity spoke of fundamental freedoms and equality of all mankind. Did they add in some chapters from Locke and Voltaire too!

Give it a break, we don't call the Constitution the Bible, they moved up to the Constitution now.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Sorry, but what in heavens name does the words Christmas Tree have to do with the Constitution, and for that matter the Bible? Who made reference to the Constituition evolving to a Bible? I am ready for the "germans bombing pear harbor" roll any minute.

[themadchemist]

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Sorry, but what in heavens name does the words Christmas Tree have to do with the Constitution, and for that matter the Bible? Who made reference to the Constituition evolving to a Bible? I am ready for the "germans bombing pear harbor" roll any minute.

I am preemptively striking the place where this thread is going--Whether or not Christianity is the foundation of our country and government. Actually, it is also where this thread has already been:


I know you want us to respect the Christian foundations of this country, will you in turn respect the Pagan foundations of the Tree?

[zimv20]

I am ready for the "germans bombing pear harbor" roll any minute.
so that's why pears have been so expensive! ;-)

[stubeeef]

mact, please let me know how I can respect the heritage of the Christmas Tree.

I will try.

Dear All you Pagans,
Thanks for liking to use greenry in the winter, being that it was winter, I imagine there wasn't much else, but great Idea. And since US Christians have moved in on your special time of the year and started gussying up trees too, I want to say thankyou very much for a great idea, after all Giving an idea is what this Giving season is all about!

[mactastic]

Well for starters, since you have elected to change the intent of the founders of the Solstice Tree by claiming it for Christianity you can stop complaining when we change what you claim is the intent of the believing Founding Fathers from their deist beliefs to a more secular government.

And since you mention it, how do you know Christ was born on that particular day? Doesn't it seem a little suspicious to you that so many Christian holidays fall on or near a pre-existing Pagan holiday? Funny that the Christian holiday of Easter (the miracle of rebirth) happens right around the Pagan holiday celebrating the rebirth that happens every spring? You ever wonder why bunnies and eggs and such are so tied up with the death and resurection of Christ?

This (http://www.circlesanctuary.org/pholidays/SolsticeArticle.html) will give you a little idea of how a modern Pagan might approach the holiday season. It tends to the general Pagan, not any of the subsets specifically, but if you look it over I think you'll be surprised at how non-threatening their rituals are, and how similar they are to your own.

Oh and do not assume that Pagans today still use the same primitive items they did 2000 years ago. Do Christians decorate their tree the same way they did 500 years ago? Did you have electric lights then? Tinsel? Modern pagans aren't retarded you know. ;)

[stubeeef]

Modern pagans aren't retarded you know. ;)

Of course they are! I'll find the link from south park.

[mactastic]

And I'm sure you'd like me to point you to the episode where both the town priest AND Jesus Christ admit to having sex with Cartman's mom as evidence of what Christians are like?

[stubeeef]

The Christmas tree is Santa Claus to me, the Nativity Scene is Christmas.


Well for starters, since you have elected to change the intent of the founders of the Solstice Tree by claiming it for Christianity you can stop complaining when we change what you claim is the intent of the believing Founding Fathers from their deist beliefs to a more secular government.


reference please.
And since you mention it, how do you know Christ was born on that particular day?
Where did I say that, this has been beaten as much as my forehead. We have all said, as everyone knows, the celebration was moved to the winter in a "marketing move". Haven't you read those threads?
Doesn't it seem a little suspicious to you that so many Christian holidays fall on or near a pre-existing Pagan holiday?
Refer to "marketing move" comment.
You ever wonder why bunnies and eggs and such are so tied up with the death and resurection of Christ?

No. It is pagan. Christianity is Christ, the Cross, and the lamb.
And Santa has it's origins too....
When conclusions are drawn about the origin of Santa Claus, extreme statements should be avoided. This short article has shown that the modern Santa Claus has been shaped by many factors and is a conglomeration of myths and legends. I feel compelled, however, to make several observations.

First, it is absolutely inaccurate to claim that "Santa Claus is a Christian" or that "Santa Claus is St. Nicholas." Though it is true that the historical St. Nicholas was a Christian man, the preceding has shown that the modern Santa Claus has nothing to do with Nicholas of Myra, other than his name. The modern Santa Claus has been greatly influenced by the custom of "the visit of St. Nicholas," in which the saint would show up on the eve of his Feast Day to give gifts to children. But the custom of his "visit" is certainly not based on the historical man; rather it is based on legends attached to him, and it is possibly based on preChristian myths (about Odin, Thor, etc.). It is also a rather silly and misleading argument to state that "Nicholas was generous and Santa Claus is generous, so the same spirit permeates both." Right!

Great link on where Santa came from. (http://users.rcn.com/tlclcms/santa.htm) It seems that Santa is a product of Evolution!

It tends to the general Pagan, not any of the subsets specifically, but if you look it over I think you'll be surprised at how non-threatening their rituals are, and how similar they are to your own.

I can tell you that I am not in the least threatened by pagans. I would not be much of a believer in Christ, If threatened by pagans. :rolleyes:
Oh and do not assume that Pagans today still use the same primitive items they did 2000 years ago. Do Christians decorate their tree the same way they did 500 years ago? Did you have electric lights then? Tinsel?
This is simply a great example of adaptation vs evolution. ;)

[mactastic]

So if you freely admit that Christians have hijacked Pagan holidays left and right, how can you possible complain that Christians are now being put upon when secular interests take over the meaning from you? When consumerism replaces Jesus as 'the reason for the season' how do you complain about it with a straight face when your religion did the exact same thing to a previous culture?

Like I said, I have no interest in changing how you celebrate your holiday. Just be understanding about the way others celebrate theirs. Not all of us believe that Jesus is the reason for the season.

Oh, and the lamb? Also a pagan symbol.

[stubeeef]

Like I said, I have no interest in changing how you celebrate your holiday. Just be understanding about the way others celebrate theirs

When have you heard me say you can't celebrate anything the way you want to?
I have said no problem with "happy holidays", I think that is not a fight worth fighting, at least it is a positive and uplifting statement.
But don't get all blustery about my celebration and the words Christmas Tree.
And this whole pagan symbols thing has got to be the most juvenile discussion I have been roped into in a long time.

[mactastic]

When have you heard me say you can't celebrate anything the way you want to?

Well wasn't the whole point of this thread that you started to complain that I'm stifling your ability to celebrate Christmas the way you want to, with celebrations in my state capital?

I have said no problem with "happy holidays", I think that is not a fight worth fighting, at least it is a positive and uplifting statement.
But don't get all blustery about my celebration and the words Christmas Tree.

Deal. But don't get all blustery about MY celebration and the words 'Holiday Tree'. OK?

And this whole pagan symbols thing has got to be the most juvenile discussion I have been roped into in a long time.

How is it juvenile? Am I talking down to you? Treating you like a kid? Or is the subject matter beneath you? You want to talk about the great traditions and heritage of our country and your faith, but when the talk turns to where those traditions come from, suddenly it's juvenile? If you don't want to talk about it fine, just stop. But don't tell me I'm being juvenile.

[takao]

Great link on where Santa came from. (http://users.rcn.com/tlclcms/santa.htm) It seems that Santa is a product of Evolution!

St.Nicholas aka. 6. dezember is still 'celebrated' here and yes he is still wearing his bishop clothes ;) (and he only brings nuts,oranges,apples, and a few sweets for the 'good' childrens ;) )

[stubeeef]

How is it juvenile? Am I talking down to you? Treating you like a kid? Or is the subject matter beneath you? You want to talk about the great traditions and heritage of our country and your faith, but when the talk turns to where those traditions come from, suddenly it's juvenile? If you don't want to talk about it fine, just stop. But don't tell me I'm being juvenile.

You're not talking down to me, you are not being mean. It is the "this is mine" you stole it kind of conversation. It is not where it came from vs didn't, it is the "we had it first" thing that seemed silly.
Alot of christianity comes out of judism too!
Maybe we can now discuss the evolution of bunnies in religion.

Well wasn't the whole point of this thread that you started to complain that I'm stifling your ability to celebrate Christmas the way you want to, with celebrations in my state capital?
No, it was nomenclature.

[mactastic]

You're not talking down to me, you are not being mean. It is the "this is mine" you stole it kind of conversation.

Perhaps you are mistaking me for a Pagan? I'm not claiming Christmas or Solstice for me or anyone. Just because I happen to have a number of close friends who practice various flavors of Paganism doesn't mean I am one also. I advocate for them though, because I feel they are often voiceless in these discussions.

It is not where it came from vs didn't, it is the "we had it first" thing that seemed silly.

I'm not claiming "I" had it first. I'm saying someone ELSE had it first, and if we want to talk about repsecting the traditions of Christmas (and by that you mean a return to the primacy of the Christ in the season, correct?) then we should allow the discussion to continue to what we know about where those rituals came from.

You seem well informed about these origins, but I have found that many Christians are not. The ones who are aware of this seem to come from the more tolerant side of Christianity.

Alot of christianity comes out of judism too!

Nothing happens in a vacuum Stu. Christianity certainly evolved, taking the beneficial traits of many cultures and rejecting the others.

Maybe we can now discuss the evolution of bunnies in religion.

It's pretty simple really. I'm sure you don't want to hear it from me at this point however, so I'll leave it at that.

No, it was nomenclature.

Who cares what they call it as long as the idea is that at this special time of the year we think about family, friends, loved ones, and the rest of the world as well. We take time to express what we often don't have time to say or do during the rest of the year. We celebrate the transition from dark to light. That's what it's all about, right?

You shouldn't be so threatened by semantics.

[stubeeef]

You shouldn't be so threatened by semantics.

I was not threatened by the holiday tree, infact I wasn't aware of it till it was a news article to call it a Christmas Tree. I was enthraled (sp) by the fact that it wasn't a Christmas tree at some point in the past due to the political correctness deemed necessary by some bureacrat/lawyer/aclu person somewhere.

[themadchemist]

I was not threatened by the holiday tree, infact I wasn't aware of it till it was a news article to call it a Christmas Tree. I was enthraled (sp) by the fact that it wasn't a Christmas tree at some point in the past due to the political correctness deemed necessary by some bureacrat/lawyer/aclu person somewhere.

It's funny that you showed such indignation for mactastic's point about the origins of the Christmas tree...I believe that you said that the origins didn't matter and that it is now a Christmas tree and people should stop whining.

Similarly, you should, perhaps, not make such a big deal out of the tree's name being changed from Christmas tree to holiday tree (or back). It doesn't matter that it was a Christmas tree, because it became a holiday tree.

[mactastic]

I'm glad somebody picked up on my point...

[stubeeef]

I Similarly, you should, perhaps, not make such a big deal out of the tree's name being changed from Christmas tree to holiday tree (or back). It doesn't matter that it was a Christmas tree, because it became a holiday tree.

A fabulous point, why did so many make a big deal out of it, that davis started calling it a holiday tree to begin with, after decades of it being a Christmas tree. I was simply remarking at how pc things had gotten. It was such that some even made it NEWS worthy that swartzy even called it a Christmas tree.
I guess now there can be a boycott of artifical Christmas Trees, cause they aren't artifical holiday trees.
Does no one here get it?!
The whole thing is, IT WAS A NEWS STORY THAT THE GOV OF CAL CALLED IT A CHRISTMAS TREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How sad is that, that pc has made it hard to call the Christmas Tree a Christmas Tree.

Christmas tree
Encyclopædia Britannica Article

Page 1 of 1

Mark Thiessen/Corbis

an evergreen tree, often a pine, balsam, or fir, decorated with lights and ornaments as a part of Christmas festivities. The use of evergreen trees, wreaths, and garlands to symbolize eternal life was a custom of the ancient Egyptians, Chinese, and Hebrews. Tree worship was common among the pagan Europeans and survived their conversion to Christianity in the Scandinavian…

Do a search again with "holiday tree" and you get the same thing, it says, Christmas Tree.
link (http://www.britannica.com/search?query=Christmas+tree&submit=Find&source=MWTEXT)

webster (www.webster.com)

The word you've entered isn't in the dictionary. Click on a spelling suggestion below or try again using the search box to the right.

Suggestions for holiday tree:
1. holidayers
2. holidayer
3. Hollister
4. heliolatry
5. haltered
6. hollered
7. hemelytra
8. helotry
9. horridest
10. humiliated


One entry found for Christmas tree.


Main Entry: Christmas tree
Function: noun
1 : a usually evergreen tree decorated at Christmas
2 : an oil-well control device consisting of an assembly of fittings placed at the top of the well

[mactastic]

Indeed. Why some make such a big deal out of this is beyond me. But hey, you started the big deal here, right?