Any Guesses Why Apple Decided not to Include USB 3

[Bucko]

Most PC have them and it's standard on current models. Any information why they didn't include it?

[Concorde Rules]

The intel X58 chipset doesn't have support for it.

The next gen X68 WILL have it.

Simple as that.

[Hellhammer]

The next gen X68 WILL have it.

Source?

[milo]

For me it's not nearly as big a deal as sticking with SATA2 instead of 3. There are single SSD drives that no bus on a mac can keep up with.

[Hellhammer]

For me it's not nearly as big a deal as sticking with SATA2 instead of 3. There are single SSD drives that no bus on a mac can keep up with.

SATA 6Gb/s you can easily add via PCIe card but USB 3.0 you can't as OS X does not support USB 3.0 as of yet.

[nanofrog]

The intel X58 chipset doesn't have support for it.

The next gen X68 WILL have it.

Simple as that.

For me it's not nearly as big a deal as sticking with SATA2 instead of 3. There are single SSD drives that no bus on a mac can keep up with.
Actually, it's not the X58/5520 (SP and DP chipsets respectively), but the I/O Controller Hub (ICH) that contains the SATA, USB, and Ethernet controllers (attaches to the chipset). And the current ICH10 has been out for a couple of years now (ICH10 = Q3 2008 which is the one the MP uses, and the ICH10R = Q4 2008).

[jedijoe]

USB3 PCIe for Intel Mac Pros: http://www.caldigit.com/avdrive/Card_PCIex.html

[nanofrog]

USB3 PCIe for Intel Mac Pros: http://www.caldigit.com/avdrive/Card_PCIex.html
I'd avoid CalDigit's products, as their others aren't that great (tend to release too soon = early users are guinea pigs), they make promises they don't deliver on, and the support is pulled suddenly (and too early).

This is even the case with their RAID products.

BTW, there's an entire thread on this, and the information is covered in others as well.

[kxfrog]

Cos USB 3.0 is bad

[snberk103]

Because USB 3 is, near as I understand, actually a different protocol than USB2. However, they have piggybacked the USB3 connectors (and wires) into the USB2 cable by using two different plugs in one connector. Depending on which USB standard the device supports only the USB2 or the USB3 wires will actually connect.

To the consumer it will appear that USB2 and USB3 plugs are the same.... but in fact they are very different .... and... most importantly makes it easy to use a USB2 cable to connect to a USB3 device. This creates complications and confusion.... and as we know Apple likes things simple.

IMO, Apple is avoiding the mess of USB3 (for regular consumers) and waiting for Light Peak. Light Peak, if implemented as designed, will allow a single type of cable to connect everything. Ethernet, video, audio, external HDs, keyboards and mice, speakers.... everything. You take your peripheral, take up to 100 ft of cable, plug one end into the device and the other end into any d*mn available port you want. No more trying to fit the USB cord into the FW port, the telephone cord into the ethernet port, etc etc. because you're on your knees, reaching around the back of the tower under the desk, trying to feel with your fingers where to plug the end of the cable.

Stay tuned. Probably announced next spring.

[Concorde Rules]

Actually, it's not the X58/5520 (SP and DP chipsets respectively), but the I/O Controller Hub (ICH) that contains the SATA, USB, and Ethernet controllers (attaches to the chipset). And the current ICH10 has been out for a couple of years now (ICH10 = Q3 2008 which is the one the MP uses, and the ICH10R = Q4 2008).

Well yes, I was mearly saying that ICH11 or whatever it is will be coming with X68 :p

[7racer]

Because USB 3 is, near as I understand, actually a different protocol than USB2. However, they have piggybacked the USB3 connectors (and wires) into the USB2 cable by using two different plugs in one connector. Depending on which USB standard the device supports only the USB2 or the USB3 wires will actually connect.

To the consumer it will appear that USB2 and USB3 plugs are the same.... but in fact they are very different .... and... most importantly makes it easy to use a USB2 cable to connect to a USB3 device. This creates complications and confusion.... and as we know Apple likes things simple.

IMO, Apple is avoiding the mess of USB3 (for regular consumers) and waiting for Light Peak. Light Peak, if implemented as designed, will allow a single type of cable to connect everything. Ethernet, video, audio, external HDs, keyboards and mice, speakers.... everything. You take your peripheral, take up to 100 ft of cable, plug one end into the device and the other end into any d*mn available port you want. No more trying to fit the USB cord into the FW port, the telephone cord into the ethernet port, etc etc. because you're on your knees, reaching around the back of the tower under the desk, trying to feel with your fingers where to plug the end of the cable.

Stay tuned. Probably announced next spring.

wow first I heard of this. Here's hoping it will be implemented!

[ovrlrd]

IMO, Apple is avoiding the mess of USB3 (for regular consumers) and waiting for Light Peak. Light Peak, if implemented as designed, will allow a single type of cable to connect everything. Ethernet, video, audio, external HDs, keyboards and mice, speakers.... everything. You take your peripheral, take up to 100 ft of cable, plug one end into the device and the other end into any d*mn available port you want. No more trying to fit the USB cord into the FW port, the telephone cord into the ethernet port, etc etc. because you're on your knees, reaching around the back of the tower under the desk, trying to feel with your fingers where to plug the end of the cable.

Stay tuned. Probably announced next spring.

Light Peak is awesome, I think the most exciting thing is the use of ClearCurve cabling which means you can bend it all you want and not have to worry about optical data loss. The problem with Light Peak is there is a lot of development hurdles that Intel still has to get past for it to be released. I think they are close to finishing it, but even still it doesn't seem likely that it will be in the hands of consumers for another 2 years at the current rate. I would love for it to come out sooner, but it's just taking them forever to finalize it, and once that is done making products doesn't exactly happen over night.

[Aaron.M.Swope]

Most PC have them and it's standard on current models. Any information why they didn't include it?

That is incorrect. most PC's don't have it, because intel does NOT support USB 3.0, and will not support it till late 2011- 2012. This is rumored to be true because USB 3.0 will be a direct computer to intel's lightpeak which according top intel will start to be seen in consumer computers by the end of this year. but I am not holding my breath.

[adder7712]

Light Peak ports look like USB ports right? I can't confirm.
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/09/2009-09-23idfd2-5.jpg

[Aaron.M.Swope]

Light Peak ports look like USB ports right? I can't confirm.
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2009/09/2009-09-23idfd2-5.jpg

Intel did a demonstration with a modified USB cable, though I would expect a similar design will be implemented. Lightpeak was demonstrated using a Mac Pro motherboard, and is rumored that apple will get lightpeak before everybody else, so I have my money on New mac Pros next summer with Sandy Bridge, and lightpeak

[Chozo]

Light Peak, if implemented as designed, will allow a single type of cable to connect everything. Ethernet, video, audio, external HDs, keyboards and mice, speakers..

Ethernet? I don't think so. It is supposed to replace a lot of interfaces, even HDMI (eventually) but I have never heard Ethernet.

Let's worry about getting fiber optic connections to your modem before worrying about it from your modem to your computer.

[nanofrog]

Because USB 3 is, near as I understand, actually a different protocol than USB2. However, they have piggybacked the USB3 connectors (and wires) into the USB2 cable by using two different plugs in one connector. Depending on which USB standard the device supports only the USB2 or the USB3 wires will actually connect.

To the consumer it will appear that USB2 and USB3 plugs are the same.... but in fact they are very different .... and... most importantly makes it easy to use a USB2 cable to connect to a USB3 device. This creates complications and confusion.... and as we know Apple likes things simple.

IMO, Apple is avoiding the mess of USB3 (for regular consumers) and waiting for Light Peak. Light Peak, if implemented as designed, will allow a single type of cable to connect everything. Ethernet, video, audio, external HDs, keyboards and mice, speakers.... everything. You take your peripheral, take up to 100 ft of cable, plug one end into the device and the other end into any d*mn available port you want. No more trying to fit the USB cord into the FW port, the telephone cord into the ethernet port, etc etc. because you're on your knees, reaching around the back of the tower under the desk, trying to feel with your fingers where to plug the end of the cable.

Stay tuned. Probably announced next spring.
There are some technical issues with current USB 3.0 chips, but it's most likely to do with costs.

It would have meant an additional semiconductor, which means more money and work (PCB would need to be reworked to accomodate it, and it would have affected the lane configurations as well). Remember, the Tick Tock cycle is designed so that the same board (socket, chipset, and ICH) can work for 2 CPU generations by means of a firmware update (no hardware changes are necessary).

There's also the small issue that USB 3.0 is technically capable of exceeding the 500MB/s per lane on PCIe Gen. 2.0 standard (though realistic throughput is only about 400MB/s due to latency under ideal conditions = no bandwidth limitations between the USB 3.0 controller and PCIe lane configuration).

2009 boards were designed in a 16 + 16 + 4 configuration where the 4x lanes are shared via a PCIe switch for Slots 3 and 4. So to dedicate a lane per USB 3.0 port, the slots would have had to be reconfigured, though the PCIe switch could be eliminated if they had.

Intel has stalled USB 3.0 implementation in their parts to allow Light Peak a chance of gaining traction in the market, which means those not willing to add the separate semiconductors to their products (cheaper to stick with Intel's parts only), will wait. Exactly what Intel's hoping for, so they can get LP's parts into full production and into distribution channels.

But if a user needs USB 3.0, there is the possibility of adding a 3rd party PCIe card (CalDigit has one out, but I wouldn't trust their offering and wait for another vendor to create drivers for OS X and release a product usable in a MP).

Well yes, I was mearly saying that ICH11 or whatever it is will be coming with X68 :p
I will, though I'm not sure if they'll stick with that naming scheme.

Given Intel's statement of "2012", it could mean the back end of the year, not beginning. Which means USB 3.0 may not be available for the consumer models of Sandy Bridge (LGA1155 parts). This seems likely to me from available information, and won't possibly surface until the LGA2011 parts ship and show up in systems (released for distribution in Q3/4 2011 <EP and EN parts releasing in different quarters>, and systems more likely to show in early 2012 due to final validation and assembly testing).

[BornAgainMac]

I hope Light Peak is the new standard cable for 2012. I would rather USB 3.0 just die since it took so long and a bag of hurt anyways. USB 2.0 and Firewire 800 have served well in the meantime.

[Aaron.M.Swope]

I hope Light Peak is the new standard cable for 2012. I would rather USB 3.0 just die since it took so long and a bag of hurt anyways. USB 2.0 and Firewire 800 have served well in the meantime.

I agree, USB 3.0 really isn't that impressive, lightpeak is, I think that lightpeak will be the end of USB end of story

[jessica.]

Is USB 3.0 even ready to go standard? Either way, steveo doesn't think you need it and therefore you don't get it.

[Honumaui]

curious for those dying for USB3 ? why ?

my wacom wont run better ? my other things wont be any better
I can use FW for card readers and external storage is SATA

I can see maybe a camera or phone sync but that is not going to work till that device does ?

I just dont get the hype of wanting something that has little use for most people when USB is working for most things you hook up with USB ?

[jessica.]

curious for those dying for USB3 ? why ?



Because people think they need it.

[milo]

SATA 6Gb/s you can easily add via PCIe card

Yeah, but selling a $5k machine that skimps on something as basic as the hard drive connections is pretty pathetic. A machine like that should include it and not require using up a pci slot.

[MikhailT]

curious for those dying for USB3 ? why ?

my wacom wont run better ? my other things wont be any better
I can use FW for card readers and external storage is SATA

I can see maybe a camera or phone sync but that is not going to work till that device does ?

I just dont get the hype of wanting something that has little use for most people when USB is working for most things you hook up with USB ?
Mainly for speed and much better power management (including the ability to charge more power-hungry devices without power supplies).

Most external drives are USB only, eSATA isn't the standard on basic cheap external drives either and Macbooks [Pro] do not have eSATA support. The expresscard/eSATA is horrible on the Macbooks [Pro].

The difference between USB 2/3 is huge, we're talking about the difference between 20MBps and 100MBps+ for typical 7200RPM hard drives and much faster with RAID0 support.

As for the reason for no USB 3.0 support is because Intel has decided to slow down the upgrade path to USB 3.0 and wants to give time for LightPeek instead. Apple didn't "decide" anything, they just have no choice.

[nanofrog]

Apple didn't "decide" anything, they just have no choice.
From a technical POV, they did have a choice. But they chose not to use an additional semiconductor and rework the PCB's to fit them (additional costs).

[hugodrax]

I do not see lightpeak until 2017

[nanofrog]

I do not see lightpeak until 2017
How did you come up with 2017?

[Ruahrc]

Probably the same way people keep coming up with 2012... guessing. But I think 2017's probably closer to the real date too.

Lightpeak is a great promising technology, but it's a long, long ways off from widespread industry adoption. It would require redesigns of nearly everything (monitors, hard disks, peripherals, etc). Look at how long it took USB to take over, it's going to be a pretty similar amount of time to transition to lightpeak.

[nanofrog]

Probably the same way people keep coming up with 2012... guessing. But I think 2017's probably closer to the real date too.

Lightpeak is a great promising technology, but it's a long, long ways off from widespread industry adoption. It would require redesigns of nearly everything (monitors, hard disks, peripherals, etc). Look at how long it took USB to take over, it's going to be a pretty similar amount of time to transition to lightpeak.
Intel's claimed the parts are to ship towards the end of this year (avialable in distribution channels for manufacturers). Assuming they keep on track, products should be available in early 2011.

Adoption however, will depend on two primary factors as I see it.
1. That the peripheral chips will be available to manufacturers (i.e. SATA to LP, USB to LP, HDMI to LP, DVI to LP,... bridge chips = don't need a full re-design to get a product out). LP products from the original design will take time (if they happen at all, as not all devices would go this route). But to get started, bridge chips will suffice to get LP product to the market.
2. They have to be low cost.

If either fall short, LP will take a while to get going, and may end up a bust finanically speaking for Intel and other partners involved in it's development (USB 3.0 could end up gaining traction and displacing LP in enough areas that it won't be all that profitable if at all).

[Vylen]

I'm sure Intel has learnt from USB... since well, they helped developed it in the first place. So they should know about getting people to adopt.

[Sun Baked]

Source?

Intel to announce addition of USB 3.0 into new motherboard reference design, says paper (http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20100906PB201.html)

Looks like they are speeding up adoption by a cycle.

[DoFoT9]

How did you come up with 2017?
it wasnt from his brain by the sounds of it ;)

Intel appears to be speeding it up thank god, i cannot wait :)

[nanofrog]

I'm sure Intel has learnt from USB... since well, they helped developed it in the first place. So they should know about getting people to adopt.
They aren't the only ones involved though, and if any one of the partners have a problem getting their end in line, the result could be a disaster.

I hope this isn't the case, but it's too early to tell.

[goMac]

Ethernet? I don't think so. It is supposed to replace a lot of interfaces, even HDMI (eventually) but I have never heard Ethernet.

Let's worry about getting fiber optic connections to your modem before worrying about it from your modem to your computer.

Light Peak is protocol agnostic. As long as it can travel over a wire, Light Peak supports it.

Light Peak can run with any wired digital protocol such as USB, FireWire, DVI, PCI Express, optical audio, any future wired protocol, and yes, even Ethernet.

That's why Lightpeak has so much bandwidth. The idea is that you'll have all your devices running off one port.

[Hellhammer]

Intel to announce addition of USB 3.0 into new motherboard reference design, says paper (http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20100906PB201.html)

Looks like they are speeding up adoption by a cycle.

Just a rumor though. Concorde Rules made it sound like it has been confirmed by Intel that X68 will support USB 3.0. I doubt Cougar Point will support USB 3.0 as it's due to be released in few months and all earlier reports have been saying that it won't so would be quite late call for Intel to add it now. Of course I'm hoping that it would, at least some of the chipsets.

Patsburg is a whole new story as it's not due before mid 2011. I guess we will know more after the IDF, hopefully something about LightPeak

[snberk103]

....
Lightpeak is a great promising technology, but it's a long, long ways off from widespread industry adoption. It would require redesigns of nearly everything (monitors, hard disks, peripherals, etc). Look at how long it took USB to take over, it's going to be a pretty similar amount of time to transition to lightpeak.

I believe that Apple is going to introduce it into either the Mini or the Mac Pro first, with a completely redesigned case that will have just 2 LP ports (my betting is the Mac Pro). And perhaps a video port. And maybe one USB port for keyboard/mouse.

Along with the box you will get a LP to USB hub. Now all of your USB legacy devices will still work out of the box. Apple will/should also introduce a few LP products (or announce partnerships with manufacturers). There are two products that Apple could move immediately to LP though.... monitors (which is why I think it's Mini or MP first) and keyboards and mice. But I don't think the price of the LP chip will be cheap enough initially to be used in mice and keyboards (which is why I think they may leave one legacy USB port - though I suppose they could put it on the back of the monitor where it is out of sight.

Shortly after Apple introduces LP computers Intel and others will have LP to ??? hubs to handle Firewire, eSata, SCSI, Ethernet, etc etc.

The big advantage to a LP to ??? hub is that the hub can handle far more bandwidth, and can be far far further from the box (up to 30 metres).

The LP to ??? hub system allows computer makers to introduce LP capable systems while not breaking legacy support. Peripheral makers will then start putting LP connectors into their devices, bypassing the need for hubs.

The big driver for all this will be Apple. They will just roll out LP in their systems (consumer choice be d*mned).... however.... suddenly Macs will be different and cutting edge again. They will be exciting and sexy. Apple will get a huge amount of the tech press talking about Macs, which will filter into the mainstream press. (Tech heads on these boards will whinge, moan, complain how this will surely spell the death of Apple - and that they may as well just shutter their computer plants right now. Meanwhile, Apple will continue to sell record numbers of computers.)

Why does Apple like LP? Its simple. It's Beautiful. You can have a computer with 2 ports for everything. (How they will handle the mess of hubs is another question.... but the computer will look gorgeous.) One button for power. A port for power in, and two LP ports. Period. No more fuss over how many USB2 vs USB3 vs FW400 vs FW800 vs Ethernet vs Audio In vs Audio Out vs Mini DisplayPort vs DVI vs Display Port vs HDMI.

Next year, in time for the holidays....

Did anyone else notice that the new Mac Pros seem to merely placeholders this time round? Has anyone thought about the fact that a large R&D bundle got dropped into the Mini's new form factor - but that the entire back panel can be replaced without affecting the rest of the body? That the Mini seems to have ports for just about every protocol out there (very un-Apple like)? However, if the all of those ports were connected internally to a couple of LP ports, then the Mini could support all of those legacy devices through LP to ??? hubs without re-engineering the entire motherboard.

Just some speculation on a rainy morning, first day back to work this week.

[goMac]

I believe that Apple is going to introduce it into either the Mini or the Mac Pro first, with a completely redesigned case that will have just 2 LP ports (my betting is the Mac Pro). And perhaps a video port. And maybe one USB port for keyboard/mouse.

Along with the box you will get a LP to USB hub. Now all of your USB legacy devices will still work out of the box. Apple will/should also introduce a few LP products (or announce partnerships with manufacturers). There are two products that Apple could move immediately to LP though.... monitors (which is why I think it's Mini or MP first) and keyboards and mice. But I don't think the price of the LP chip will be cheap enough initially to be used in mice and keyboards (which is why I think they may leave one legacy USB port - though I suppose they could put it on the back of the monitor where it is out of sight.

I think likely that Apple will include a USB port or two for legacy. I can see them dropping Firewire and DVI (possibly MDP) in favor of light peak.

[snberk103]

I think likely that Apple will include a USB port or two for legacy. I can see them dropping Firewire and DVI (possibly MDP) in favor of light peak.

Possibly/Probably. And probably intended for the keyboard and mouse since the cost of adding a LP plug to them would increase the cost substantially (compared to the cost of adding it to higher priced items where the price difference could balanced by eliminating the other ports).

I think it depends on how hard Apple wants to push this thing.

[PaulD-UK]

The big driver for all this will be Apple. They will just roll out LP in their systems (consumer choice be d*mned).... however.... suddenly Macs will be different and cutting edge again. They will be exciting and sexy. Apple will get a huge amount of the tech press talking about Macs, which will filter into the mainstream press. (Tech heads on these boards will whinge, moan, complain how this will surely spell the death of Apple - and that they may as well just shutter their computer plants right now. Meanwhile, Apple will continue to sell record numbers of computers.)

Why does Apple like LP? Its simple. It's Beautiful. You can have a computer with 2 ports for everything. (How they will handle the mess of hubs is another question.... but the computer will look gorgeous.) One button for power. A port for power in, and two LP ports. Period. No more fuss over how many USB2 vs USB3 vs FW400 vs FW800 vs Ethernet vs Audio In vs Audio Out vs Mini DisplayPort vs DVI vs Display Port vs HDMI.

Next year, in time for the holidays....

Did anyone else notice that the new Mac Pros seem to merely placeholders this time round?
Just some speculation on a rainy morning, first day back to work this week.
+1 +1 +1 +1...
Its said that projects that get SJ's attention get fast-tracked - I can see him devoting half an hour to this ;)

...though I suppose they could put it on the back of the monitor where it is out of sight.
And you'll have to buy the fancy Apple monitor to get this unavailable-elsewhere functionality...

[goMac]

Possibly/Probably. And probably intended for the keyboard and mouse since the cost of adding a LP plug to them would increase the cost substantially (compared to the cost of adding it to higher priced items where the price difference could balanced by eliminating the other ports).

I think it depends on how hard Apple wants to push this thing.

Yeah, I can't see Apple including a LP->USB hub in the box, very inelegant.

I could see them trimming the number of USB ports down to two or something in the mini and throwing on two LP ports.

[thejadedmonkey]

Most PC have them and it's standard on current models. Any information why they didn't include it?

Intel's latest motherboards don't support it. To support it would mean adding an additional PCI card, which costs money. Even though the mac pro is a $2000+ machine, Apple's still trying to squeeze you for every last cent.

[TheStrudel]

Or maybe it's because they didn't want to use a PCIe lane, do more design work on top of the Intel chipset, or cludge together such an inelegant solution.

They've never, ever liked throwing parts together like that, and they never did it to satisfy customer demand. Why would they start now?

[Ace134blue]

The intel X58 chipset doesn't have support for it.

The next gen X68 WILL have it.

Simple as that.

Not to say they couldnt add support for it... but Intel doesn't make any boards that i know of that use usb3.
Since usb3 is backwards compatible apple should have gotten usb3, maybe from another manufacturer like Gigabyte, asus, etc that have a nec host controller.
Right now there is pretty much no need for usb3.
If you want it, get a PCIe USB3 add-on card.

[Ruahrc]

Just some speculation on a rainy morning, first day back to work this week.

A nice scenario, but it's never going to happen. LP is going to appear first as an add-in PCIe card for PCs. It probably won't be popular or well known and when Apple does release a LP product most apple users will assume Apple was the first but they are going to be wrong.

Apple would not release a product with such a large kludge as a LP > ??? hub as a required element. If anything, they will start by replacing a couple of USB ports with LP, maybe release a Mac Pro with a LP enabled video card, eventually phasing in more and more LP until it's your perfect box with a power cord, on button, and X number of LP ports. It will take a long time.

But it also won't happen because Apple is simply not a big enough player in the market to drive it. sure they are popular, but their marketshare is too small to drive the adoption of a new technology. If apple is only 10% of the market, what peripheral manufacturer is going to start hardcore development of LP devices to satisfy that 10%?

Ruahrc

[snberk103]

A nice scenario, but it's never going to happen. LP is going to appear first as an add-in PCIe card for PCs. It probably won't be popular or well known and when Apple does release a LP product most apple users will assume Apple was the first but they are going to be wrong.

I agree with the bit about Apple users believing Apple invented many things that Apple merely popularized. In this case I wonder if it's different though. One story is that Apple brought the idea/specs to Intel to develop... Certainly Apple and Intel are working on this together because the prototype was debuted on a Mac Pro. One of the advantages Apple has, in Intel's eyes, is that if Apple buys into a technology they just implement it. Period. They won't offer their customers the option. And it's a small market share, but Apple it is seen as a leader.

Apple would not release a product with such a large kludge as a LP > ??? hub as a required element. If anything, they will start by replacing a couple of USB ports with LP, maybe release a Mac Pro with a LP enabled video card, eventually phasing in more and more LP until it's your perfect box with a power cord, on button, and X number of LP ports. It will take a long time.
I agree about the inelegance of the hub. But I don't see them adding LP over too long a time either. They will at a minimum replace an existing port, certainly not add yet another hole in the back. The problem with a slow transition is that you don't get people to buy into it.

If Apple made high bandwidth peripherals like external disks and whatnot, it would be easy. They would just roll out the computer and the peripherals with LP. Choices be d*mned. So, I don't know how Apple will handle this bit. But just moving a video port to LP doesn't do anything for them, or LP.

But it also won't happen because Apple is simply not a big enough player in the market to drive it. sure they are popular, but their marketshare is too small to drive the adoption of a new technology. If apple is only 10% of the market, what peripheral manufacturer is going to start hardcore development of LP devices to satisfy that 10%?

Ruahrc

They may be a small market share, but it's an influential one. And it's homogenous. If adopts this fully, then every new Mac will LP with no (or few) alternatives. Apple will also need a compelling reason why people will "need" LP - at least from a marketing perspective. My money (but its a bit of long shot admittedly!) is that Apple has that compelling need figured out and that we will see LP in time for next years holiday shopping crush.

[PaulD-UK]

Hi
I have a vision of Steve and Jony standing up and saying "trucks are out, Apple is green" and showing a 16-core low TDP unibody monoblock device more like a bigger Mac Mini, connected by the thinnest of threads to other similar monoblocks that house the graphics engine(s), solid state storage engine(s), HD video/audio I/O etc etc. Built up like lego - $10,000+ for the full works... ;)

Someone tell me that won't happen. Seems very Steve to me...

[Ruahrc]

It seems incredibly un-Apple in my eyes to discretize everything. They are all about more integration/consilodation, not less. I really really doubt anything remotely close to that vision will ever happen.

[bitterrootbob]

Because USB 3 is, near as I understand, actually a different protocol than USB2. However, they have piggybacked the USB3 connectors (and wires) into the USB2 cable by using two different plugs in one connector. Depending on which USB standard the device supports only the USB2 or the USB3 wires will actually connect.

To the consumer it will appear that USB2 and USB3 plugs are the same.... but in fact they are very different .... and... most importantly makes it easy to use a USB2 cable to connect to a USB3 device. This creates complications and confusion.... and as we know Apple likes things simple.

IMO, Apple is avoiding the mess of USB3 (for regular consumers) and waiting for Light Peak. Light Peak, if implemented as designed, will allow a single type of cable to connect everything. Ethernet, video, audio, external HDs, keyboards and mice, speakers.... everything. You take your peripheral, take up to 100 ft of cable, plug one end into the device and the other end into any d*mn available port you want. No more trying to fit the USB cord into the FW port, the telephone cord into the ethernet port, etc etc. because you're on your knees, reaching around the back of the tower under the desk, trying to feel with your fingers where to plug the end of the cable.

Stay tuned. Probably announced next spring.

Bingo! Plus, LightPeak is 3 times faster than esata. I would look for LightPeak macs after the first of the year. I am holding off on a new Mac simply for the reason of having LightPeak.

[MikhailT]

Bingo! Plus, LightPeak is 3 times faster than esata. I would look for LightPeak macs after the first of the year. I am holding off on a new Mac simply for the reason of having LightPeak.

Not going to happen, Intel has already stated (http://www.electronista.com/articles/10/09/16/intel.doesnt.see.light.peak.ready.for.two.years/) it won’t happen until 2012. Apple WILL move to USB 3.0 soon.

[nanofrog]

Not going to happen, Intel has already stated (http://www.electronista.com/articles/10/09/16/intel.doesnt.see.light.peak.ready.for.two.years/) it won’t happen until 2012. Apple WILL move to USB 3.0 soon.
If you look at their recent history, Apple tends to use what's included in the I/O Controller Hub (ICH = single chip that contains SATA, USB, and Ethernet controllers). Yes they use a separate chip to provide FW ports, but other than that, they stick with what comes in the ICH (they're cheap).

To get USB 3.0 earlier, they'd have had to include a 3rd party chip (to have gotten it in the 2010 systems; to do it, they'd have had to do a redesign on the boards) which they didn't do. At this point, there won't be a new system until the Xeon versions of Sandy Bridge release (Socket R = LGA2011 parts), even if they did decide to use a 3rd party chip (USB 3.0 won't be in the ICH that releases with that series of CPU's; too soon, and it could compromise the adoption of LightPeak, which is why they delayed it in the first place).

[ActionableMango]

...LightPeak doesn't carry any power, right? So no bus-powered external drives. Everything would need batteries or worse, an AC/DC wall wart. Even wired devices like keyboards and mice would need to start using batteries. Thumbdrives, memory readers, etc., would be impractical. If you have to have batteries anyway, you might as well be BT and wireless. I don't see any practical purpose for many of the devices mentioned in this thread to be on LightPeak.

I don't think LightPeak will replace USB/FW until power is carried along side the optical cable.

[diazj3]

...LightPeak doesn't carry any power, right? So no bus-powered external drives. Everything would need batteries or worse, an AC/DC wall wart. Even wired devices like keyboards and mice would need to start using batteries. Thumbdrives, memory readers, etc., would be impractical.

I don't think LightPeak will replace USB/FW until power is carried along side the optical cable.

Of course not... plus, what would be the point in hooking your mouse, keyboard and such simple peripherals via lightpeak? specially when they dont require such bandwidth, and there are simpler, less expensive solutions (USB, bluetooth) for them.

My guess is that lightpeak would be implemented for devices that would take advantage from it, without necessarily replacing all other protocols. On the power issue... you never know, perhaps they decide to run a power cable along the fiber optic to power some portable devices... but it's still too early to tell.

[Hellhammer]

Intel has said they are working on power over LP. They may add a copper wire alongside the optical fibre so it could power devices.

[Sun Baked]

If you look at their recent history, Apple tends to use what's included in the I/O Controller Hub (ICH = single chip that contains SATA, USB, and Ethernet controllers). Yes they use a separate chip to provide FW ports, but other than that, they stick with what comes in the ICH (they're cheap).

To get USB 3.0 earlier, they'd have had to include a 3rd party chip (to have gotten it in the 2010 systems; to do it, they'd have had to do a redesign on the boards) which they didn't do. At this point, there won't be a new system until the Xeon versions of Sandy Bridge release (Socket R = LGA2011 parts), even if they did decide to use a 3rd party chip (USB 3.0 won't be in the ICH that releases with that series of CPU's; too soon, and it could compromise the adoption of LightPeak, which is why they delayed it in the first place).

Looking more like Intel will include USB3.0 support in Sandy Bridge, might have been there all the time like the wireless pre-N supported stuff we had in the past, with Intel staying quiet this round until later in the process.

[nanofrog]

Looking more like Intel will include USB3.0 support in Sandy Bridge, might have been there all the time like the wireless pre-N supported stuff we had in the past, with Intel staying quiet this round until later in the process.
I think they'll be playing dates this time around. That is, there won't be USB 3.0 support when Sandy Bridge first ships (LGA1155 parts = consumer models), but will once the enterprise/enthusiast parts release (LGA2011).

At that point, they'll release a new I/O Controller Hub to accompany the new CPU's and accompanying chipset in a simultaneous release. Based on my understanding of the available roadmap data that's been released and desire to stall USB 3.0 successfully before LP's debut anyway. ;)

[Hellhammer]

I think they'll be playing dates this time around. That is, there won't be USB 3.0 support when Sandy Bridge first ships (LGA1155 parts = consumer models), but will once the enterprise/enthusiast parts release (LGA2011).

At that point, they'll release a new I/O Controller Hub to accompany the new CPU's and accompanying chipset in a simultaneous release. Based on my understanding of the available roadmap data that's been released and desire to stall USB 3.0 successfully before LP's debut anyway. ;)

Fudzilla (http://www.fudzilla.com/processors/item/20347-sandy-bridge-to-get-usb-30-support) begs to differ. They are talking about a laptop which means it's LGA 1155 chipset.

[nanofrog]

Fudzilla (http://www.fudzilla.com/processors/item/20347-sandy-bridge-to-get-usb-30-support) begs to differ. They are talking about a laptop which means it's LGA 1155 chipset.
We'll have to wait and see.

There's a lot of missing information in that article (rather common with Fudzilla's articles from what I've noticed), such as is the rest of the hardware there or not (i.e. the new port).

If it comes out early (based on previously available information), great. :D

But I don't see them backtracking on LP before USB 3.0 unless they've suddenly had a breakthrough (will be able to get those parts available really soon; as in LP cards available before the first LGA1155 systems ship), or had a technical problem that will prevent LP from getting parts into the distribution channels on time (thus purposely holding off on USB 3.0 a major mistake).

[Hellhammer]

We'll have to wait and see.

There's a lot of missing information in that article (rather common with Fudzilla's articles from what I've noticed), such as is the rest of the hardware there or not (i.e. the new port).

True. Fudzilla hasn't shown any concrete evidence like an image of that laptop. On the other hand, the release is so close and they gave a good explanation why Intel has been quiet about USB 3.0, thus it should have some proofs behind it. At least we have hope now :p

But I don't see them backtracking on LP before USB 3.0 unless they've suddenly had a breakthrough (will be able to get those parts available really soon; as in LP cards available before the first LGA1155 systems ship), or had a technical problem that will prevent LP from getting parts into the distribution channels on time (thus purposely holding off on USB 3.0 a major mistake).

Intel pushed Light Peak to 2012 if I recall correctly.

[jjahshik32]

Because Apple dont play that way.

[Sun Baked]

I think they'll be playing dates this time around. That is, there won't be USB 3.0 support when Sandy Bridge first ships (LGA1155 parts = consumer models), but will once the enterprise/enthusiast parts release (LGA2011).

At that point, they'll release a new I/O Controller Hub to accompany the new CPU's and accompanying chipset in a simultaneous release. Based on my understanding of the available roadmap data that's been released and desire to stall USB 3.0 successfully before LP's debut anyway. ;)

Looked more like the pre-USB3.0 final spec chip hardware is there in the ICH, if anything it'll be updated via firmware and software patches like the pre-N wireless stuff was.

Seems more like Intel was playing it safe if there were major problems and they had to default to running the new USB3 silicon as USB2 until they updated the ICH in the next incremental update.

Seems like Intel is reasonably sure that it'll work 100% (or close enough) to announce it will be supported when Sandy Bridge ships.

[nanofrog]

Intel pushed Light Peak to 2012 if I recall correctly.
I only recall seeing this in referrence to USB 3.0, not LP.

Looked more like the pre-USB3.0 final spec chip hardware is there in the ICH, if anything it'll be updated via firmware and software patches like the pre-N wireless stuff was.
This is possible, but I wasn't under the impression they were going to release a new ICH in time for the LGA1155 parts (contains the SATA, USB, and Ethernet controllers). Rather that it was to release with the LGA2011 parts instead.

Seems more like Intel was playing it safe if there were major problems and they had to default to running the new USB3 silicon as USB2 until they updated the ICH in the next incremental update.

Seems like Intel is reasonably sure that it'll work 100% (or close enough) to announce it will be supported when Sandy Bridge ships.
Your premise is sound. I was just under the impression that the new ICH wouldn't be released with the LGA1155 parts, going by Intel's statements (seemed reasonable to hold the new ICH until after LP parts were actually available in distribution channels, which is supposed to be the tail end of this year - haven't seen any information this has been delayed).

But on the assumption there has been a delay with LP, then getting the new ICH out with the LGA1155 parts would make sense (SATA 3 and USB 3.0 would be attractive = helps to sell systems in a tight economy IMO).

[Hellhammer]

I only recall seeing this in referrence to USB 3.0, not LP.

http://www.guru3d.com/news/intel-light-peak-arrives-in-2012/

They announced that in IDF.

Oh, and get your quoting right ;)

[nanofrog]

http://www.guru3d.com/news/intel-light-peak-arrives-in-2012/

They announced that in IDF.
Then it's been pushed back, as IDF 2009 had the release set a year earlier (parts in the distribution channel in late 2010).

[Hellhammer]

Then it's been pushed back, as IDF 2009 had the release set a year earlier (parts in the distribution channel in late 2010).

And in IDF 2011 it will be pushed to 2013 :D

[nanofrog]

And in IDF 2011 it will be pushed to 2013 :D
Hold your tongue. :D :p

[snberk103]

...LightPeak doesn't carry any power, right? So no bus-powered external drives. Everything would need batteries or worse, an AC/DC wall wart. Even wired devices like keyboards and mice would need to start using batteries. Thumbdrives, memory readers, etc., would be impractical. If you have to have batteries anyway, you might as well be BT and wireless. I don't see any practical purpose for many of the devices mentioned in this thread to be on LightPeak.

I don't think LightPeak will replace USB/FW until power is carried along side the optical cable.

Of course not... plus, what would be the point in hooking your mouse, keyboard and such simple peripherals via lightpeak? specially when they dont require such bandwidth, and there are simpler, less expensive solutions (USB, bluetooth) for them.

My guess is that lightpeak would be implemented for devices that would take advantage from it, without necessarily replacing all other protocols. On the power issue... you never know, perhaps they decide to run a power cable along the fiber optic to power some portable devices... but it's still too early to tell.

The Intel page on Light Peak does actually mention that it will carry power, so all those external devices will still work without a wall wart.

The point of keyboards and mice using LP is not the bandwidth needed, but the standardization on one single type of plug. No more trying to fit a FW plug into a USB plug 'cause you're reaching around the back in a dim corner. Trying to tell by touch which 'holes' in the back of your iMac or monitor you need to use for your keyboard.

[jjahshik32]

Because Apple will include USB 3.0 in Sandy Bridge.