ATI 5870: 10bit output?

[Sahib7]

Simple question:
Does the new ATI 5870 support 10bit output via Display-Port if a 10bit capable display (e.g. NEC PA271W) is connected?

THX!

[2contagious]

Simple question:
Does the new ATI 5870 support 10bit output via Display-Port if a 10bit capable display (e.g. NEC PA271W) is connected?

THX!

I'd say yes, through the display port, but I'm not sure ?

[TheStrudel]

I think that may only be officially supported on workstation cards like the Quadro, in Windows. I'm not sure if they've limited it that way, but it's definitely not supported at all in OS X on any card, which is a pity because the hardware's been capable for some time. But even in windows, the functionality is barely supported and terribly clunky.

Long story short: don't count on it any time soon.

I would like them to add that to OS 10.7, though.

[goMac]

The 4870 had 10 bit output in OS X, so I'm going to say yes, but I haven't verified that yet.

Need to be using the displayport though.

[TheStrudel]

Unfortunately, software compatibility is a crucial part of the pathway - if any of the links do not support 10 bit output - and OS X does not - it won't work.

[goMac]

Unfortunately, software compatibility is a crucial part of the pathway - if any of the links do not support 10 bit output - and OS X does not - it won't work.

OS X does indeed support 10 bit output for software that can output a 10 bit graphics context.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/accessories/10bit.shtml

[dknightd]

Excuse my ignorance. What does 10 bit give you - more colors?
I don't even see a way to select this in 10.6 anymore.

[goMac]

Excuse my ignorance. What does 10 bit give you - more colors?
I don't even see a way to select this in 10.6 anymore.

10 bit gives you a larger range of colors.

You have to have a 10 bit monitor, a 10 bit GPU, and 10 bit software. If you don't know if you have a 10 bit monitor, you probably don't. :p

[JavaTheHut]

Simple question:
Does the new ATI 5870 support 10bit output via Display-Port if a 10bit capable display (e.g. NEC PA271W) is connected?

THX!
Waiting on a cable for the exact config. MDP>DP. at this point I only get Pixel Depth: 32-Bit Color:(
Let you know when my cable comes in...

My question is where the hell is the vid card support from ATI? for the Mac OSX? Like Catalyst etc...

[goMac]

Waiting on a cable for the exact config. MDP>DP. at this point I only get Pixel Depth: 32-Bit Color:(
Let you know when my cable comes in...

This is what OS X will report with 10 bit color output.

You cannot change the whole OS to bit color in display settings, only certain apps support it. This is why you have to manually switch Photoshop to OpenGL mode for it to work. You can't just change your display settings to 10 bit color. Each app has to be updated for 10 bit individually.

If course if you're using DVI you won't even get 10 bit color out of Photoshop.

[macz1]

Where does the system store the color profile for a monitor? At which point does the mapping from system colors (8 bit) to monitor colors (10bit or more) occur?
If it is the job of the graphics card the whole 10bit thing concerns only the monitor and the GPU, the only thing OS X must do is the definition of a color profile, which is supported for a long time... or did I not understand the problem correctly?

[mulo]

being dumb. if we have 32 bit, then whats the advantage to 10 bit?

[Sahib7]

edit...

[goMac]

being dumb. if we have 32 bit, then whats the advantage to 10 bit?

32 bit refers to the bit depth of an entire color (with RGBA channels). 10 bit refers to the bit depth of one channel.

So, 8 bits per color x 4 = 32 bit color.
10 bits per color x 4 = 40 bit color.

So a 10 bit monitor/GPU and display 40 bit color. Just a difference of the bit depth for one channel of the color vs. the bit depth for all four colors.

Of course, a monitor doesn't need the alpha channel, but the OS still has to process the color as 40 bit.

[JavaTheHut]

That makes sense then re; 40-bit

[mulo]

ah thank you gomac, makes sense

wouldn't this have a huge impact on performance though?

[goMac]

ah thank you gomac, makes sense

wouldn't this have a huge impact on performance though?

It would have an impact on performance, but not huge. Only applications that can handle 10 bit colors will output at 10 bit. Currently the only way to do so is to use special features under OpenGL. So you're not going to see a performance drop across the board, and it won't be a serious drop, but applications running in 10 bit will perform very slightly slower.

Keep in mind if you're on a 64 bit machine, your computer is normally crunching numbers 64 bits in size. So working with a 10 bit color channel isn't exactly rocket science for your CPU.

I'm not sure what effect it has on GPU speeds yet. We haven't gotten our 10 bit setup in the office yet, but it's on our list of things to do.

[TheStrudel]

This may be nitpicking, but I wouldn't describe "Works on an Eizo monitor that implemented a workaround in firmware" as supported by OS X.

The graphics card can pass the data - that hasn't really been an issue - but there are some severe software gremlins still.

Unless all the complaints by the other users have been resolved, but I have a strong suspicion that  will advertise the support once they consider it ready.

[goMac]

This may be nitpicking, but I wouldn't describe "Works on an Eizo monitor that implemented a workaround in firmware" as supported by OS X.

The graphics card can pass the data - that hasn't really been an issue - but there are some severe software gremlins still.

Unless all the complaints by the other users have been resolved, but I have a strong suspicion that  will advertise the support once they consider it ready.

Huh?

OS X - Supports 10 bit color
4870 - Supports 10 bit color
Eizo Monitor - Had a monitor bug fixed with a firmware patch, now supports 10 bit color.

10 bit color is supported under OS X. Apple does advertise support because they were the ones who added the support in their OpenGL drivers. I know professionals using 10 bit color output in OS X.

I'm not sure what the deal is here.

[JavaTheHut]

Hey goMac
Sounds like you have a good grasp of the future of the 10-bit affair.
Do you know if PS will automatically engage the the hardware if it is made available? given PS setting for OpenGL...etc are dialled in.

Here is what I presume so far :
1. ATI 5870 card (mac)
2. NEC PA27W (or other 10-bit compatable monitor with a displayport)
3. Mini displayport > Displayport cable
4. OSX running 64bit mode
5. CS5 PS running 64bit mode
6. PS OpenGL on and Advanced mode selected
7. ? How to know if all is well

If you come up with a method to invoke and/or benchmark Don't be shy - the kids want to know. It would be really nice to be able to throttle a benchmark or two if that day comes.

Cheers!

[goMac]

Photoshop isn't going to tell you if 10 bit is working, but it looks like ATI uploaded a handy sample image to test...

The guide is here (skip the first page, it's Windows driver specific):
http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/48108-B_ATI_FirePro_Adobe_10-Bit_FAQ_R5_Final.pdf

The sample document (ramp.psd) is here:
http://www.amd.com/US/PRODUCTS/WORKSTATION/GRAPHICS/TOOLS/Pages/tools.aspx

According to ATI, if you're not running in 10 bit, you should see significant banding with that document.

I work for a company that writes graphics software, and we're supposed to be testing 10 bit support here soon, we just need a 10 bit display. I'll let you know when we get a 10 bit display into the office, and test this out.

[TheStrudel]

Apple does advertise support because they were the ones who added the support in their OpenGL drivers.

Where?

I have looked.

Look, I'm not saying that it's impossible - or even that 10-bit color is definitively unsupported.

I'm more getting at the fact that it's half-baked right now. I've yet to see anything written by a website or journal I trust on the subject, and everything I've read so far says it isn't quite there yet, though all the technical issues have been solved.

I find it also relevant to point out that AMD's documentation says that "Adobe does not provide support for 10-bit image display for Adobe Photoshop CS5". This is likely because support is not yet at the point where any company will stake its reputation on it, and also because Display Port uptake isn't high enough (later revisions of HDMI do provide enough bandwidth, but it's not a popular port in the pro space).

For all I know, it's three terminal commands away, but all evidence and web searching says that this isn't ready for primetime.

By all means, please let us know what you find when you guys get it going on your end, or get some of the professionals you know to write an article, or post something.

I would like to know, but everything I've seen so far is a lot less definitive than such a subject should be.

[goMac]

'm more getting at the fact that it's half-baked right now. I've yet to see anything written by a website or journal I trust on the subject, and everything I've read so far says it isn't quite there yet, though all the technical issues have been solved.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by half baked. If a developer wants to use 10 bit output, it's available.

It will most likely not be available as a option in the Display preference pane in the near future, as software would have to be re-written to use 10 bit color.

It's about as half baked as OpenCL or Grand Central.

[TheStrudel]

Half-baked meaning few consider it done or ready. AMD officially supports it on windows in limited situations and that's...about it. I'm not saying a technology needs to have an official seal of approval, but generally companies don't consider it done or ready until they (prominently or otherwise) claim to support it.

Show me where on anybody's website other than AMD's, where this support exists.

[goMac]

Half-baked meaning few consider it done or ready. AMD officially supports it on windows in limited situations and that's...about it. I'm not saying a technology needs to have an official seal of approval, but generally companies don't consider it done or ready until they (prominently or otherwise) claim to support it.

Show me where on anybody's website other than AMD's, where this support exists.

I'm not entirely sure what you're on about. Apple/AMD added it to the developer API's in the public headers, meaning it's supported.

If I can open a DTS case on it (and I can), it's supported for developers. If users can open support cases on it (which they have), and get feedback from Apple (which they have) then Apple is supporting it for users. Apple even worked with Eizo on their firmware bugs, which again, is another level of support.

I'm not sure where you are getting any idea that Apple doesn't support 10 bit color... The only thing I do see is that there are only limited instances where it makes sense to use 10 bit color, so there aren't many apps that use it. However, I could say that about a lot of supported, public, finalized APIs as well (and 10 bit color support in OS X is all those things.)

[TheStrudel]

Citation needed.

I have yet to find any article besides the one you posted, and the only forum thread I've located on [H]ardforum that discusses this talks about how half-baked 10-bit color support is.

Interestingly enough, Anandtech couldn't get 10-bit output to work with their Dell U2711 sample. Had Anandtech or ArsTechnica made a post detailing it, I'd definitely consider it proof enough, as those are possibly the best tech journalism sites on the web, but they haven't got anything about this on widely available consumer tech or OSes yet. And they do tend to be on the forefront of new advances.

I'm not saying that you're wrong, but that I want some kind of evidence to back up your claims. I'll settle for screenshots, though links would be preferable.

[goMac]

I'll settle for screenshots, though links would be preferable.

Screenshots of what? You can't view a 10 bit screenshot on your 8 bit display...

With regard to links, what exactly are you missing? There is a link on here stating that 10 bit output is officially supported in Photoshop CS5 in OpenGL mode (which also means that Apple/ATI added 10 bit color support to the developer facing headers, which means it is supported to developers). There has also already been a link posted with someone who has it working, and detailing that Apple bother offered user support for 10 bit color, in addition to working with a monitor manufacturer to fix their 10 bit color support on their displays.

I'd like to see something posted from you as to why this is not supported... It's an officially supported OpenGL flag, just like all the other ones Apple maintains but doesn't make big flashing bullet points on their site.

Occlusion queries was also something added recently to the graphics drivers in OS X. I don't see any public advertising of this feature from Apple. Should I also assume that this is not officially supported?

[TheStrudel]

Screenshots of any indication on the system - such as in system profiler - that 10 bit color is active would be nice. It will tell you, as it currently tells you that you've got 32-bit color pixel depth. But I meant of said OpenGL flags, as I can find no mention of this anywhere. Perhaps it's locked behind Apple's developer pages, which is why I said I would settle for screenshots if links were not possible.

The link stated that AMD supports 10 bit color output, and in fact, that Adobe does not, which I find rather telling. I don't find that one article as convincing as you do. It's heartening news, certainly, but it just doesn't seem very substantial to me.

Occlusion queries are not as big a deal for the professionals who use  hardware as 10-bit color is. It's of interest to the related industries - photography and film - who would probably like to do more directly in OS X. Occlusion queries are neat, I suppose - don't know a ton about them - but not a marketing point like 10-bit color is. I find it relevant that  bothered to list native 2.2 gamma in the Snow Leopard marketing. Not on the front page, but it was listed on the website. This still isn't.

And even if all of this wasn't true, my request for any kind of citation is a perfectly reasonable request. I really do want to see some more substantial information and my own searches have revealed nothing.

[goMac]

Screenshots of any indication on the system - such as in system profiler - that 10 bit color is active would be nice. It will tell you, as it currently tells you that you've got 32-bit color pixel depth. But I meant of said OpenGL flags, as I can find no mention of this anywhere. Perhaps it's locked behind Apple's developer pages, which is why I said I would settle for screenshots if links were not possible.

System Profile won't report 10 bit iirc, because it's not a system wide setting...

As for the API, it's actually part of the OpenGL spec. Here ya go:
http://www.opengl.org/registry/specs/EXT/packed_pixels.txt

Looks like it's part of the OpenGL 1.0 spec. So for any OS to support OpenGL 1.0, they have to support 10 bit color. As far as Apple's support, do a Spotlight search for the 10 bit color constant, it's in the developer headers. As far as I can tell, it's not even a new feature. I even see it defined in the headers for 10.4, which is as far back as I can go.

The link stated that AMD supports 10 bit color output, and in fact, that Adobe does not, which I find rather telling. I don't find that one article as convincing as you do. It's heartening news, certainly, but it just doesn't seem very substantial to me.

Whether or not Adobe supports it has absolutely no bearing on whether or not Apple supports it. Adobe's entire OpenGL mode should be entirely unsupported, imo, it's very poorly written.

Technically, it's not even Apple's call. As long as the hardware supports it, you can load a 10 bit texture into VRAM and draw it. But Apple is supporting it.

And even if all of this wasn't true, my request for any kind of citation is a perfectly reasonable request. I really do want to see some more substantial information and my own searches have revealed nothing.

My searches very quickly revealed things.

[TheStrudel]

Please, do provide links then - clearly I'm not searching for the right things, and I would like some more information. Thanks for the OpenGL spec reference.

Part of OpenGL - yes. Doesn't mean that the functionality is necessarily guaranteed to be working properly. It certainly should be, but uptake has been so slow that if it was broken, not a lot of people would know or necessarily care.

From what I read, enabling it in Windows broke a lot of things. Not to say that it will here, but I'm expecting some ad print or at least a passing mention on 's website when they consider it ready.

[goMac]

Please, do provide links then - clearly I'm not searching for the right things, and I would like some more information. Thanks for the OpenGL spec reference.

Part of OpenGL - yes. Doesn't mean that the functionality is necessarily guaranteed to be working properly. It certainly should be, but uptake has been so slow that if it was broken, not a lot of people would know or necessarily care.]

If it's in the developer facing headers, it's guaranteed to be working properly. I'm telling you this as a developer. If it isn't, than as a developer you open bugs on it, and DTS cases, which means it gets fixed.

From what I read, enabling it in Windows broke a lot of things. Not to say that it will here, but I'm expecting some ad print or at least a passing mention on 's website when they consider it ready.

10 bit output has been supported since Mac OS 10.0. I don't think you're going to see it on Apple's web site any more.

Not to mention, it's really a function implemented by the graphics drivers.

Apple's official documentation on enabling 10 bit is here...
http://developer.apple.com/graphicsimaging/opengl/extensions/apple_packed_pixels.html

The compatibility table ( http://developer.apple.com/graphicsimaging/opengl/capabilities/ ) indicates that the function is fully supported since at least 10.2.8 in the ATI, NVidia, and software renderers.

It's fully supported. I don't need to supply any more info.

[JavaTheHut]

So following up we received the MDP>DP cable and hooked it up, checked the config. opened the ramp.psd and there was still banding in the image.
Results were NO 10-bit unless we have over looked something in the config & setup.

1. ATI 5870 card (mac)
2. NEC PA27W (or other 10-bit compatable monitor with a displayport)
3. Mini displayport > Displayport cable
4. OSX running 64bit mode
5. CS5 PS running 64bit mode
6. PS OpenGL on and Advanced mode selected
7. Open ramp.psd
8. banding in the image - Result Fail

anyone have any ideas?

[goMac]

So following up we received the MDP>DP cable and hooked it up, checked the config. opened the ramp.psd and there was still banding in the image.
Results were NO 10-bit unless we have over looked something in the config & setup.

1. ATI 5870 card (mac)
2. NEC PA27W (or other 10-bit compatable monitor with a displayport)
3. Mini displayport > Displayport cable
4. OSX running 64bit mode
5. CS5 PS running 64bit mode
6. PS OpenGL on and Advanced mode selected
7. Open ramp.psd
8. banding in the image - Result Fail

anyone have any ideas?

There's some people on Apple's forum doing the same test on a 4890:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2130243&start=120&tstart=0

It seems like they're talking about the 5770 possibly, also.

It looks like the 4870 has it's own driver separate from the 5770/5870. So it's possibly that there is a configuration issue, or ATI didn't flag 10 bit as a card supported feature in their 5X70 Mac drivers. The drivers are basically responsible for telling Apple's OpenGL implementation what features are available on the card, and the ATI engineers may not have added the 10 bit flag to their drivers. If the drivers claim the 5870 isn't a 10 bit card, Apple's OpenGL stack won't enable 10 bit. (This isn't necessarily an issue on Apple's end, in since ATI writes their own drivers.)

I might know someone I could ask about the 5X70 drivers specifically. I'll see what I can find out.

[chmilar]

2010 Mac Pro with 5870, connected to HP Dreamcolor LP2480zx monitor via DisplayPort (capable of 10-bits per channel).

Photoshop CS5, OpenGL advanced mode.

If I make a black-to-white gradient, and look closely at the monitor, I can see banding.

[Weepul]

If I make a black-to-white gradient, and look closely at the monitor, I can see banding.
And when you perform this test with that monitor hooked up to a 4870, you don't see any banding?

[chmilar]

And when you perform this test with that monitor hooked up to a 4870, you don't see any banding?

I don't have a 4870.

[hval]

I am looking at an Eizo ColorEdge CG303W to go with a 5870. The monitor has dual DVD-D inputs.

Any ideas how this will work with a hexcore Mac Pro and Final Cut Studio? Also for photography. What cables will I require to get the best out of the monitor? Oh yes, I forgot (sorry); I shall also be using an Apple 20" ACD along with it.


Thanks

Hval?