'Apple copies Windows' claim opens desktop wars

[MacBytes]

Category: Mac OS X
Link: \'Apple copies Windows\' claim opens desktop wars (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20041215190045)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

[Stella]

So what?

Apple copies microsoft
microsoft copies Apple
KDE / GNOME desktops copies from microsoft and windows
... and it goes on...

Big deal.

Tell me an application where ideas / inspirations weren't taken from a previous application? ( No smart arse replies please :cool: )

[dejo]

Tell me an application where ideas / inspirations weren't taken from a previous application? ( No smart arse replies please :cool: )

Oh, c'mon. Let's hear some smart arse replies. It could be funny. :)

[dejo]

Thurrott's accusation is that Apple's been "busy copying Windows features since Jobs returned to Apple in 1996".

Can we get some other specific examples besides desktop search? (and what? MS invented this? please)

[Sun Baked]

Wait a minute, Apple is copying a feature for a Microsoft OS that won't ship until 2006 or later -- while Apple is delivering it in a matter of months.

This after MS spent years saying me-to to every single feature WordPerfect announced -- yet the features didn't always show up in shipping, except in the future features list.

I'm still waiting for MS to say they pioneers well GUIs for Unix when they finally ship a Windows Overlay for linux. :rolleyes:

"MicroSoft, the Most innovative company in the world," Bill Gates said, "and my psychiatrists tell me I'm right."

[brap]

I don't understand why people still get riled about articles which involve Thurrott.

I mean... come on...

[treblah]

I don't understand why people still get riled about articles which involve Thurrott.

I mean... come on...

He is such a tool of MS. How anyone, Mac or PC, could think anything he says is unbiased is beyond me. He is the Bill O'Reilly of the computing world. ;)

[GaelDesign]

Apple isn't copying Microsoft, it's copying BeOS. BeOS had instant hard drive search with a database-like metadata filesystem (BeFS) years ago, before Apple bought NeXT even. And guess who's working at Apple these days? The guys who first created BeFS at Be, Dominic Giampaolo and Pavel Cisler. That's right, the two BeFS masterminds are now working at Apple on (ta da da dum ta dum) Spotlight and the Finder.

So these claims about Apple copying Microsoft are idiotic. I e-mailed Paul Thurrott about these FACTS months ago, but he chooses to ignore them because they spoil his fantasy about Microsoft being a poor, abused, picked-on monopoly.

Argh.

[Koyder]

Paul Thurrott is to IT what populism is to democracy. If you treat them seriously, you can lose your mind.

[liketom]

i remember the days before i went Mac ! arrrrgggh what a knightmare that was - i had a early alpha of LongHorn and it ran like a dog like any alpha would do and i used Mr Thurrott's site alot back then and i found it to be biased but informative if you love MicroSoft . so the moral of the story is what ? don't trust him or MicroSoft ? goes with out saying the last one but i find that take it with a pinch of salt tends to get me through the bogus claims on who stole what and who's copiers are working overtime.

[iJaz]

Mr Thurrott's answer on all the critic he has received for his article, from www . internet-nexus . com:
MSN Toolbar Suite vs. Mac Fandom
My preview of Microsoft's recently released (in beta) of MSN Toolbar Suite, which provides instant desktop search functionality in Windows, IE, and Outlook, has garnered a number of negative reactions from Mac fanboys, who scour the Net looking for anything even slightly anti-Mac. In this case, they have a point, however. I do have a few derogatory (if accurate) comments about Apple in the review, and they can't stand it. So I'd like to address a few issues here, one of which I really, really wish I had thought to include in the preview (Maybe I'll mention it in the actual review, which will appear when the MSN Toolbar Suite is finalized in early 2005).

I'm not going to rehash issues about Apple copying Microsoft, which frankly has happened more than the reverse since Mac OS X first arrived, and has been routinely documented here and in other places along the way. Companies copy from other companies, get over it. My point isn't that Apple is the only one doing it, my point is that many people refuse to believe it even happens, and they're wrong.

No, I want to address two other issues. First, a number of people found my overly positive review of MSN Toolbar Suite to be ... a bit suspicious. After all, the argument goes, I write about Windows. I have a site called the Windows SuperSite. I mean, you don't have to do much math to put two and two together and ... well, you know. Yeah, that makes sense. Except that just last week, I panned Microsoft's Xbox Media Center Extender (see the review, I dare you), because it's a piece of crap. My latest Windows IT Pro Magazine UPDATE editorial is also highly critical of Microsoft for the WinFS fiasco (it's not on the Web yet, but I'll link to it when it appears). So there you go. So much for the back pocket theory. Maybe I'm just honest about this stuff.

The second issue is one I wish I had included in the article. That is, I mentioned that once Microsoft started talking about desktop search, a bunch of competitors started showing up. But my point about Google was that they pretty clearly rushed the public beta of Google Desktop Search out the door after Microsoft said they would ship a desktop search beta by year's end, not that Microsoft had "invented" desktop search. This isn't a matter of who's first, per se, but rather how when Microsoft announces something, it gooses other companies into action. Frankly, this is a big change from a decade ago, when such pronouncements would cause others to exit markets. Something to think about.

Hmmm, an interesting quote further down on the page:
"And, sigh, I'll mention once again just for kicks that I'd love to see Apple really grow its Mac market, though no one seems to believe it."
I don't think I believe him, just look how he tries to miscredit everything about Apple, the new iMac, iPod and iTunes and so on.

[SiliconAddict]

Yah know the really pathetic thing? MS has had the underlying engine for these capabilities for years. Its called the indexing service. It was revamped in Windows 2000 so it didn't have as large of an overhead and has been further refined in XP. The problem is they haven't DONE anything with it. There is no GUI front end to the Indexing Service. So they have this relatively powerful tool just sitting in Windows waiting to be used.

As for Paul....You get use to the ***hole after a while. At this point it sounds like white noise. No check that white noise can be somewhat calming. He is more like downtown traffic. You just tune it out after a while.

[shamino]

Wait a minute, Apple is copying a feature for a Microsoft OS that won't ship until 2006 or later -- while Apple is delivering it in a matter of months.
Naw, he's referring to Microsoft's Fast Find utility. You know, that component of MS Office that constantly thrashes your hard drive and burns up CPU time in order to build a search-database of everything. Of course, no applications (not even MS Office, it seems) actually use this database for anything, but it exists, and that's the most important thing :)

(FWIW, I make a point of never installing Fast Find. It really is as useless as I wrote. I also don't install the Office Assistant - everything becomes much friendlier once it's gone.)

[nubero]

Paul Thurrott is to IT what populism is to democracy. If you treat them seriously, you can lose your mind.

Haha that's great... And soooo right...

---

http://homepage.mac.com/nuber
Free Desktop Pictures

[dejo]

I really liked this one comment he made in his MSN Desktop Search review:

While MSN has been characteristically secretive about its product plans...

"Characteristically secretive"? What? When was the last time Microsoft released anything that came as a complete surprise to everyone? It's more like: let's announce something that will show up sometime in the future, we're not sure when, and may need to be delayed.

P.S. What the hell does MSN have to do with Desktop Search anyways? Shouldn't this just be a Windows feature?

[MacBandit]

Naw, he's referring to Microsoft's Fast Find utility. You know, that component of MS Office that constantly thrashes your hard drive and burns up CPU time in order to build a search-database of everything. Of course, no applications (not even MS Office, it seems) actually use this database for anything, but it exists, and that's the most important thing :)

(FWIW, I make a point of never installing Fast Find. It really is as useless as I wrote. I also don't install the Office Assistant - everything becomes much friendlier once it's gone.)

Does Fast Find in Windows use MetaData? I didn't think it did. I thought it was like Apple's Indexing feature.

[shamino]

Does Fast Find in Windows use MetaData? I didn't think it did. I thought it was like Apple's Indexing feature.
I think it pulls metadata from MS Office files. Probably not from anything else.

But it doesn't matter because nobody ever uses the data that it burns all your CPU time accumulating.

[MacBandit]

I think it pulls metadata from MS Office files. Probably not from anything else.

But it doesn't matter because nobody ever uses the data that it burns all your CPU time accumulating.


I was playing with Windows yesterday and Microsoft calls there Fast find feature, "Indexing," just like Apple does. Though as you say it doesn't really work.

[wrldwzrd89]

Yah know the really pathetic thing? MS has had the underlying engine for these capabilities for years. Its called the indexing service. It was revamped in Windows 2000 so it didn't have as large of an overhead and has been further refined in XP. The problem is they haven't DONE anything with it. There is no GUI front end to the Indexing Service. So they have this relatively powerful tool just sitting in Windows waiting to be used.

As for Paul....You get use to the ***hole after a while. At this point it sounds like white noise. No check that white noise can be somewhat calming. He is more like downtown traffic. You just tune it out after a while.
I happen to be at a Windows XP machine right now - so I opened the Search tool. My guess is that the "find words in a file" option in the Search tool makes use of the Indexing Service. There is a GUI for searching using the Indexing Service, but it is hidden inside the Computer Management tool located in Administrative Tools inside Control Panel.

[MacBandit]

I happen to be at a Windows XP machine right now - so I opened the Search tool. My guess is that the "find words in a file" option in the Search tool makes use of the Indexing Service. There is a GUI for searching using the Indexing Service, but it is hidden inside the Computer Management tool located in Administrative Tools inside Control Panel.


If you go to the add/remove programs control panel and then click on add/remove Windows Components within that list is the indexing service component. I don't believe Windows currently has any implementation for metadata beyond ID3 tags, Office files, and image files. Even with those files only the Music and Image files are any use and thats for sorting the music and image folders not really for searching.

[wrldwzrd89]

If you go to the add/remove programs control panel and then click on add/remove Windows Components within that list is the indexing service component. I don't believe Windows currently has any implementation for metadata beyond ID3 tags, Office files, and image files. Even with those files only the Music and Image files are any use and thats for sorting the music and image folders not really for searching.
You're right as far as metadata search goes - it's pretty minimal in Windows right now. I agree 100% with your general point though - Microsoft created the Indexing Service, but never really fleshed it out.