Florida County Bans Christmas Trees From Public Buildings

[Sun Baked]

Florida County Bans Christmas Trees From Public Buildings (http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1103138421587)
The Associated Press
12-17-2004

Pasco County, Fla., officials have banned Christmas trees from public buildings after their county attorney decided they were religious symbols.

Dozens of people have complained to the county north of Tampa, and a constitutional law group this week urged it to reverse its decision.

"This whole thing is silly. It floors me," said Marijane Graham, 67, of Dade City. "I'm sure there are atheists celebrating Christmas somewhere just for the spirit of giving. I've never read about a Christmas tree in the Bible, or Santa for that matter."

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The litigation over Christmas is sort of getting out of hand.

I know we're supposed to limit the rolleyes in the Political Section... but this definitely needed the animated version. ;)

[mactastic]

Yeah crosses, Silent Night etc. I can understand, but the Xmas tree? That seems a little over the top.

[Xtremehkr]

They revised that position quickly! (http://www.pascocountyfl.net/)

For some reason it won't link but check the News Releases section.

[dotnina]

They revised that position quickly! (http://www.pascocountyfl.net/)

For some reason it won't link but check the News Release section.

Indeed!

Here's the full link: http://www.pascocountyfl.net/news/christmastrees2004.pdf

I'm glad they changed their position. As long as there's no crosses or nativity scenes or anything, I don't think it's worth making a fuss over.

[Xtremehkr]

I need to get Html literate...

[dotnina]

I need to get Html literate...

No worries, they're just having fun with frames. ;)

[Xtremehkr]

I have no idea.. :confused:

[Sun Baked]

Changed their mind in a week after new org. start posting about the stupidity of their stance.

Can't have any religious symbols, guess no angels -- and probably no stars later.

[Xtremehkr]

It was a little bit silly. Christmas is about spending money, time off and eating food.

[Sun Baked]

It was a little bit silly. Christmas is about spending money, time off and eating food.That's also a problem...

Some people are suing cities for changing holiday tradition and making it a holiday for everybody.

Then there's the other camp that says it's too religious, lets remove religion and make it a capitalistic orgy.

And then there's cities who scaled back the festivities due to budget constraints getting knocked for failing to take part.

[solvs]

I think this is why such a backlash against political correctness. Sometimes I don't blame Christians from feeling a little subjugated. Freedom of religion goes both ways, and as long as others rights are not being trampled on, it should be allowed. The Government telling you to be religious is just as bad as them telling you not to be. No one is forcing those who are not Christmas celebrators to do anything. And as long as you can hang Menorahs, etc. I think it should be ok.

We work in an ethnically deverse place, and we have Christmas trees, etc. And this is a place where everybody gets offended over everything. But nobody minds if you hang up your decorations, as long as they can hang up theirs, and managment allows you to be as involved or un-involved as you'd like.

This is all pretty much common sense, IMO.

[Daveman Deluxe]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

While this specifically only speaks about Congress and not about other arms of government, my opinion is that there really needs to be a decision made regarding the placement of religious symbols on public property, from the Ten Commandments to the menorah. Religous symbols (including anything resembling a religious symbol an atheist should choose to post) should either be wholly proscribed or wholly prescribed. In any case, I think that the very least that should be permissible is for a civil servant to post his own symbols in his private office or analagous structure, i.e. a judge's courtroom, etc. Perhaps that idea is the ideal solution to the problem.

[pseudobrit]

his private office or analagous structure, i.e. a judge's courtroom, etc.

A judge's coutroom is in no way analogous to a private office.

His private office is.

[mactastic]

I believe those are called his chambers.

A courtroom is more analogous to a classroom than a teachers office, and we've already established that a classroom is no place to show deference to a particular religion.

And FWIW, I'm all for allowing people to put whatever symbols they want in their private spaces, even if those private spaces are paid for by the public. But I seriously question anyone who is displaying either so much stuff or such large stuff that they are obviously making a point rather than using the items for inspiration.

I'm OK with seeing someone hang 10 or display a cross in a private setting. Are the Christians OK with seeing a public servant display iconography from Wiccan faith, or a Devil Worshiper in a teacher's office, or judge's chambers?

[Chip NoVaMac]

I think this is why such a backlash against political correctness. Sometimes I don't blame Christians from feeling a little subjugated. Freedom of religion goes both ways, and as long as others rights are not being trampled on, it should be allowed. The Government telling you to be religious is just as bad as them telling you not to be. No one is forcing those who are not Christmas celebrators to do anything. And as long as you can hang Menorahs, etc. I think it should be ok.

We work in an ethnically deverse place, and we have Christmas trees, etc. And this is a place where everybody gets offended over everything. But nobody minds if you hang up your decorations, as long as they can hang up theirs, and managment allows you to be as involved or un-involved as you'd like.

This is all pretty much common sense, IMO.

The issue in our country is one of where do you draw the line? Should not Jewish and Islamic high-holy days get the same recognition in terms of displays and paid time off?

It brings to discussion of which religions should be "recognized". Much like the debate about Gay unions/marriage (it would lead to polygamy, bestiality, and the such), the religious brings those that fear polygamy, sacrifice, and devil worship. What standards do we use to define
"accepted" religious practices.

[IJ Reilly]

The issue in our country is one of where do you draw the line? Should not Jewish and Islamic high-holy days get the same recognition in terms of displays and paid time off?

The question really brought out the cynic in me. Of course they don't deserve the same recognition, and not just because these are minority religions in the US. What do Jews do on Yom Kippur? They go to the synagogue and pray for forgiveness for their sins. And what do Muslims do during Ramadan? They pray, and fast. Neither go shopping, that's for sure. So what would making these days holidays do for the economy?

[Chip NoVaMac]

The question really brought out the cynic in me. Of course they don't deserve the same recognition, and not just because these are minority religions in the US. What do Jews do on Yom Kippur? They go to the synagogue and pray for forgiveness for their sins. And what do Muslims do during Ramadan? They pray, and fast. Neither go shopping, that's for sure. So what would making these days holidays do for the economy?

I guess my experiences are a bit different. Many Jewish owned stores in NYC are closed for the Sabbath on Saturdays. Some that I deal with in NYC close for a week at a time for Jewish Orthodox (?) religious holidays. Maybe I am more sensitive since one of my Grandfathers was Jewish, before converting. And the Other was Russian Orthodox.

IMO "celebrating" one religions holiday over another goes counter to the inclusionary nature we are supposed to have as a Nation.

You do get to a point of contention that I have with Christmas. Christmas is from a Christian perspective, to celebrate the birth of Jesus Christ. The tradition of gift giving comes from St. Nicholas delivering small gifts and toys to good children. It has been perverted into the spending orgy that make the Israelites waiting for Moses' return from the mountain top blush.

Maybe if we didn't have retailers getting 25% or better of their sales during the November/December timeframe, we might not have the discussion about Social Security that we do today. For people might have been able to better save for their futures.

[IJ Reilly]

You're right. My observations were intended as sarcasm. Christmas wasn't originally intended to be the season for retailing cheer, but that's what it is now, and as such it has its defenders on those grounds alone (and some of them are evangelical Christians!). But I am completely serious in one respect: I don't know that we'd ever have made Christmas a national holiday if it hadn't become so important to the economy. Those other holidays, they don't have a prayer (so to speak) because nobody buys anything to celebrate them.

[Xtremehkr]

That's also a problem...

Some people are suing cities for changing holiday tradition and making it a holiday for everybody.

Then there's the other camp that says it's too religious, lets remove religion and make it a capitalistic orgy.

And then there's cities who scaled back the festivities due to budget constraints getting knocked for failing to take part.

I reject the religious and capitalistic orgy parts of christmas. Small meaningful gift and spending time with people is far better than a Lexus with a Bow Tie. Though it doesn't reinforce the ego as well I guess.