BitTorrent file-swapping networks face crisis

[MacBytes]

Category: News and Press Releases
Link: BitTorrent file-swapping networks face crisis (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20041221011134)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

[JeDiBoYTJ]

Dec. 19, 2004 was a sad day in internet history... :(

[nagromme]

Why sad? Because a few mass-piracy sites were shut down, or forced to transition to legal content? Because it's now a little harder for some people to pirate the creative works of others?

BitTorrent is a GREAT technology, and one that's here to stay.

Using it to pirate the creative works of others is another matter. That's just wrong, and I cannot condone it.

[noverflow]

Understood that tv shows are copyrighted, But if I ever missed a show on tv, I would just download it. I personally dont look at that as being evil. Im not taking away any potential sales that way.

[edesignuk]

meh...I still have my sources, suprnova.org was for newbs :p :D

[nagromme]

You are if you then don't buy the DVD later... or if you don't buy as many cable channels that in turn buy reruns... or if you download a network show with the sponsors' ads removed. Of course everyone who downloads copyrighted works says they would never have paid for any of it under any circumstances--but in fact, some of them WOULD have paid for SOME things, eventually, if they had no illegal alternative. That said, I can understand that downloading a network TV show you just missed the day before, and then deleting it, is more of a gray area (ethically, not legally) than downloading a cable TV show or a movie or a music CD.

[Laslo Panaflex]

meh . . . pirating is for newbs, I just break into stores and steal the actual software, then, I physically own it. :D

Seriously, I don't have time to use anyting on the internet other than World of Warcrack, it takes up most of whatever free time I have, and Internet bandwidth.

[killmoms]

Dang, guess I'll have to find my Tiger builds elsewhere.

[Sir_Giggles]

Ok smartypants, what's the difference between taping a TV show and downloading one off BitTorrent?

[Daveman Deluxe]

Sir_Giggles: there's a world of difference legally. When you download it from somebody else, that person is illegally sending you a copy of the show, and you are illegally obtaining that copy. The copy is received from somebody else. When you make your own copy, you aren't obtaining it from somebody else--you're just time-shifting it, which is expressly legal.

I hope that makes more sense than I think it does.

[shamino]

Ok smartypants, what's the difference between taping a TV show and downloading one off BitTorrent?
The show you receive off the air was legally broadcast to you by someone with a written license for the content. Statistics about who saw/recorded the broadcast are gathered by cable companies and research companies like Nielsen, which are used by those networks to set advertising rates and to ultimately pay for the production of the show. Watching or recording a broadcast puts money in the pockets of those who produced the program in a very real (although indirect) way.

The same show, downloaded off the internet, was given to you by someone with no broadcast license. No money of any kind makes its way back to the producers of the show.

[shamino]

My question is: how does this news affect legal users of BitTorrent?

Without mass-index sites like suprnova.org, is it still possible to use BitTorrent to get things like Linux distributions? (This is a serious question. I haven't ever used BitTorrent, so I don't know if these servers are as critical as Napster's servers were.)

[kerb]

My favourite one is still up at least.

[TwitchOSX]

I have partaken in Bit-Torrent before, to download things such as X-Plane.. check thier site, they give FTP servers or Bit-Torrent files to obtain thier software legally. I have in the past downloaded tv shows like Aqua Teen Hunger Force.. which makes me want to watch it when its on TV more.. and hell, I just bought the 2nd season's 2 disc DVD set. Watching the show on TV made them no money from me because of the commercials.. they made money from me because I downloaded the shows from the internet, really like them and bought the DVD set. Not quite seeing the problem there. Movies, music, software on the other hand are a different matter for copyright owners.

[applekid]

I have in the past downloaded tv shows like Aqua Teen Hunger Force.. which makes me want to watch it when its on TV more.. and hell, I just bought the 2nd season's 2 disc DVD set. Watching the show on TV made them no money from me because of the commercials.. they made money from me because I downloaded the shows from the internet, really like them and bought the DVD set. Not quite seeing the problem there. Movies, music, software on the other hand are a different matter for copyright owners.

Those advertisers lose out. When you buy a DVD, sure, Cartoon Network gets their cash, but the advertisers are not.

My question is: how does this news affect legal users of BitTorrent?

Legal users are not affected. There are plenty of sites with legal torrents. Nothing to worry about when you're not breaking any rules :)

I'm still a little uneasy by the forum visitors that are pretty much implying (or even admit) they weren't using Suprnova.org and all of the other hubs for legal files. Doesn't look very good when you're getting the feeling there's a lot of Mac users pirating whatever it may be. Keeps our population down. And it's just bad karma. :)

Then, I also feel uneasy for saying these things because the pirates try so valiantly to defend themselves with hollow arguments. Meh. Anybody that wants to think of flame me for whatever I type on this subject, here's my reply: "Piss off!" :mad:

It's a happy day for the internet.

A word of advice to everyone: If you're going to just start some flamewars and arguments (since this is a touchy subject), watch threads like these just spew with pages and pages of crap. I kid you not.

[TwitchOSX]

Those advertisers lose out. When you buy a DVD, sure, Cartoon Network gets their cash, but the advertisers are not.



Legal users are not affected. There are plenty of sites with legal torrents. Nothing to worry about when you're not breaking any rules :)

I'm still a little uneasy by the forum visitors that are pretty much implying (or even admit) they weren't using Suprnova.org and all of the other hubs for legal files. Doesn't look very good when you're getting the feeling there's a lot of Mac users pirating whatever it may be. Keeps our population down. And it's just bad karma. :)

Then, I also feel uneasy for saying these things because the pirates try so valiantly to defend themselves with hollow arguments. Meh. Anybody that wants to think of flame me for whatever I type on this subject, here's my reply: "Piss off!" :mad:

It's a happy day for the internet.

A word of advice to everyone: If you're going to just start some flamewars and arguments (since this is a touchy subject), watch threads like these just spew with pages and pages of crap. I kid you not.

The advertisers werent going to get any of my money anyway from commercials. And by the way, who pays the advertisers? Cartoon Network. Who did I just pay money to for the DVD? Cartoon Network. Where did that money go? To pay for everything Cartoon Network has to pay for. Employee's, building costs, electricity, .... ADVERTISERS.. am I forgetting anything here?

[killmoms]

The advertisers werent going to get any of my money anyway from commercials. And by the way, who pays the advertisers? Cartoon Network. Who did I just pay money to for the DVD? Cartoon Network. Where did that money go? To pay for everything Cartoon Network has to pay for. Employee's, building costs, electricity, .... ADVERTISERS.. am I forgetting anything here?
Yes, Cartoon Network doesn't pay advertisers, you doof. The whole point of advertising is that companies PAY NETWORKS FOR AIRTIME so that people will buy their products. Advertising is what subsidizes CN's shows, not you buying a DVD. That helps, but advertising is the bulk of any network's incoming cash.

[TwitchOSX]

Yes, Cartoon Network doesn't pay advertisers, you doof. The whole point of advertising is that companies PAY NETWORKS FOR AIRTIME so that people will buy their products. Advertising is what subsidizes CN's shows, not you buying a DVD. That helps, but advertising is the bulk of any network's incoming cash.

What was I thinking? Too early in the morning. Anyway.. commercials still aint getting anything from me.

[applekid]

What was I thinking? Too early in the morning. Anyway.. commercials still aint getting anything from me.

For something like the iPod, advertising rakes in cash for Apple for their "investment" and pays the TV channel company pretty well. But, that is because it is a pretty new item.

But, advertising does have enough of an affect on us consumers for companies to keep advertising and making costs of ads for certain TV shows expensive.

Not trying to sway your opinion, but there's a few things to think about.

[shamino]

What was I thinking? Too early in the morning. Anyway.. commercials still aint getting anything from me.
You may not buy the products, but when you watch the show, it contributes to the show's ratings, which are used to set the rates that the network charges advertisers for their time slots.

Any time you use a TV tuner that phones home for some reason (many cable boxes, TiVo, or a dedicated device like those Nielsen distributes) your viewing contributes to the show's ratings.

If you record the show off the air and play it later, that also contributes, because there's a record of the recording.

If you download the show, however, there is no tracking. Your viewing doesn't affect the ratings and therefore does not affect what the network gets in advertising for airing the show. Ultimately, this means the producers of the show (which may or may not be the network or DVD publisher) are getting underpaid.

[milzay]

^ Point Taken
But think about it, why would you record TV shows, most likely because you've missed the program or you've seen it and really liked it. Therefore, my d/l'ing the tv program you havent messed up anyone.

[killmoms]

^ Point Taken
But think about it, why would you record TV shows, most likely because you've missed the program or you've seen it and really liked it. Therefore, my d/l'ing the tv program you havent messed up anyone.
You have if you didn't watch it and contribute to the ratings in the first place, that's what shamino is pointing out. If you download a show to the exclusion of watching it on TV, the show gets lower ratings. The lower the ratings, the less the network can charge for advertising time. If that charge is low enough, there won't be enough money to finance the show, so it gets cancelled. Thus, the best plan is:

1) Watch the TV show live or timeshift it with a device like TiVo so you contribute to the ratings
2) Download the TV show so you can watch it again as you like
3) When the DVDs are released, buy them

This will ensure the shows you like are well financed and stay on TV, and it just makes you a better person.

[continuum]

Sir_Giggles: there's a world of difference legally. When you download it from somebody else, that person is illegally sending you a copy of the show, and you are illegally obtaining that copy. The copy is received from somebody else. When you make your own copy, you aren't obtaining it from somebody else--you're just time-shifting it, which is expressly legal.

I hope that makes more sense than I think it does.

It makes sense but is just a legal "play on words"...

[shamino]

^ Point Taken
But think about it, why would you record TV shows, most likely because you've missed the program or you've seen it and really liked it. Therefore, my d/l'ing the tv program you havent messed up anyone.
When you record a show, a record of that (via cable box, TiVo, Nielsen box or survey) is made. A recording doesn't contribute as much to the ratings as watching it live (because you might not watch the tape and you might skip over the commercials), but it does contribute.

When you download the show, no such record is made.

Theoretically, this problem could be solved if the download servers would report statistics to those who compile the ratings, but this could only be done legally if the server was hosted by someone with a broadcast license for the program.

[shamino]

Thus, the best plan is:
1) Watch the TV show live or timeshift it with a device like TiVo so you contribute to the ratings
2) Download the TV show so you can watch it again as you like
Or just transfer the file from your TiVo to your computer and avoid third-party servers altogether. This is legal under fair-use (although it may violate the terms of your TiVo purchase.)
3) When the DVDs are released, buy them
Definitely. That's why I bought the complete set of Babylon 5 DVDs, even though I have a complete set recorded from TV on VHS. (That, and the fact that digital video and 5.1 surround sound are much better quality than the original broadcast.)

[milzay]

^ Point Taken
But think about it, why would you record TV shows, most likely because you've missed the program or you've seen it and really liked it. Therefore, my d/l'ing the tv program you havent messed up anyone.

1) Watch the TV show live or timeshift it with a device like TiVo so you contribute to the ratings
2) Download the TV show so you can watch it again as you like
3) When the DVDs are released, buy them


Thats what im saying, the reason you would d/l a tv program is because you missed it. Wheres the sense in just downloading it when you can watch it on TV. So by saying wtach it when its live is just stupid, if you forget the program is on you dont know its on. So i stick by what i first said and agree with you that you should watch the program live and buy the DVD set, but if you 4get the programs on i think its ok to d/l the program.

[shamino]

Thats what im saying, the reason you would d/l a tv program is because you missed it. Wheres the sense in just downloading it when you can watch it on TV. So by saying wtach it when its live is just stupid, if you forget the program is on you dont know its on. So i stick by what i first said and agree with you that you should watch the program live and buy the DVD set, but if you 4get the programs on i think its ok to d/l the program.
If you don't watch it when it's on, but record it off the air, it adds to the shows ratings and the producers get paid more.

If you download it, this doesn't happen.

Your insistence that there is no difference between the two situations is simply wrong.

[milzay]

Try to pay attention this time.
Im saying if youve missed a program theres nothing that you can do about it, its gone, done, so its ok to download it.
Yes record it if you remember, you'd be stupid not to. Why would you want to d/l a program when you can just watch it?
You wouldn't unless youve missed it, which is my point.

[Sir_Giggles]

Looks like LokiTorrents are reaching their donation goal of $30,000 to fight against the MPAA.