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serge101
Sep 22, 2010, 04:19 AM
Hi everyone

I have a fight on my hands.

I work for an in-house design agency for a large UK organisation and our IT department have threatened to replace our Macs with PCs once they die out.

This, they say, is for two reasons Ė financial cutbacks and IT support.

Our iMacs are now 4 years old and they claim it will be cheaper to replace them with PCís.

Our corporate network is Windows based (sorry, I donít have any technical specifications) and we use Parallels to access the Internet and email. We also use industry standard design packages such as CS and Quark.

Fonts would obviously be a issue when accessing old files, but are there any other genuine reasons to keep our Mac revolution alive?

Please no fan-boy comments Ė Iíve tried and they donít get me anywhere.

Cheers,

Anthony



opeter
Sep 22, 2010, 04:53 AM
Adobe apps, Quark etc. is working on Windows OS too. I don't see any problems with that.

serge101
Sep 22, 2010, 05:01 AM
Thanks for your comment but maybe I didn't make myself clear. We don't want to transfer to a PC platform

opeter
Sep 22, 2010, 05:31 AM
I understand, but I don't think you can do much anthing about that. If they say they will get PCs, than I would say get over it.
You are only an employee there, aren't you?

Of course you can try, to make arguments, why you need Macs for you work.
I don't know your boss trough ...

Anyway, where I did work in the past, they did also replace the two Macs we had with two PCs. We had G4 PowerMacs and used MacOS 9.2.2 on them (because of the old 4.x QuarkXpress Passport), however MacOS X 10.2 "Jaguar" was also installed, but never used.

chrono1081
Sep 22, 2010, 05:40 AM
Or course IT wants to use Windows, its job security for them. I know cause Im in IT.

That does suck though. I hate having to rely on Windows to get important work done :/

btbrossard
Sep 22, 2010, 05:50 AM
Just casually mention the seven levels of hell Adobe makes it's customers go through for cross platform upgrades.

It's always lovely to have the IT department making decisions about the OS you have to use simply on the basis of cost of hardware. No rational argument is going to sway that purchasing choice.

AnimaLeo
Sep 22, 2010, 05:59 AM
Do you personally have to work on the PC's provided? If not you could buy your own Macbook or whatever and use that.

serge101
Sep 22, 2010, 06:30 AM
Yeah, I guess this kind of thing is going to become more common in the new world of budget cuts.

However there is a glimmer of hope. I've been asked to put a business case together and I do have full support from my manager.

Iíll certainly be using my own MacBook when working from home AnimaLeo, but we have a team of 4 designers in the office who will be working on desktops connected to a network.

Maybe the answer doesn't lie in hardware/software but in our workflow.

Iíve cursed poor compatibility issues between Macís and PCís over the years and now Iím hoping to find one!

iGav
Sep 22, 2010, 06:55 AM
This obvious approach is simply to make an argument along these lines... first there's the cost of buying new PC's & displays then buying Windows versions/licenses of all your software (as well as any additional other software for peripherals etc)... you could also lie and say you'll need to buy Windows compatible versions of all your fonts as well and of course the creative team will obviously ;) all need to be sent on courses to learn all of this new stuff, all of which will of course have a negative impact on your ability to actually work until this new workflow is fully implemented and any issues are ironed out, which of course there will be whilst making it fully clear that it'll be IT's job to fix them. ;)

Cost all of this too... ;)

But really, you shouldn't be needing to make the case to an IT department in the first ***** place, your DD or CD should be able to bat this away in about 30 seconds flat. ;)

decksnap
Sep 22, 2010, 07:53 AM
Honestly any hardware cost savings would be zeroed out by the cost of forcing 4 people to get up to speed on a different operating system. Even if you 'know' Windows, the productivity will surely take a larger hit than whatever small cost savings there is in switching.

Consultant
Sep 22, 2010, 10:27 AM
Open 100 large images in windows. Try to multi task. Show them.

Zoreke
Sep 22, 2010, 11:30 AM
Hi I wish I could joi your fight but I already switch to Windows 4 months ago...

I've been doing grpahic design using macs for over 15 years but $$ is hard an I really needed a fater machine, so a programmer friend put together a nice gaming PC with windows 7....

Fonts are the main problem, but I manage to convert my fonts using Font Lab Studio and it took a long time and tons of tedious work. Once you have that done the rest of the CS and graphic software works the same and now you can use Suitcase on windows to manage your fonts like on the mac.

Yes Windows is ugly looking but you are going to spend your time in photosho, illustrator and Quark, and they look and work the same but faster for less $$...

So far I haven't had problems opening old files and the machine is pretty good, and since I put my Cintiq on it I'm creating things everyday in Windows... I still have two macs around though :)

It is a big switch and it takes time to get use to the new system but it works...

Good luck and if you can get new macs if you can't it is not that bad seriously.

Cheers.
:D

Designer Dale
Sep 22, 2010, 02:43 PM
Hi everyone

I have a fight on my hands.

I work for an in-house design agency for a large UK organisation and our IT department have threatened to replace our Macs with PCs once they die out.

This, they say, is for two reasons Ė financial cutbacks and IT support.

Our iMacs are now 4 years old and they claim it will be cheaper to replace them with PCís.

Our corporate network is Windows based (sorry, I donít have any technical specifications) and we use Parallels to access the Internet and email. We also use industry standard design packages such as CS and Quark.

Fonts would obviously be a issue when accessing old files, but are there any other genuine reasons to keep our Mac revolution alive?

Please no fan-boy comments Ė Iíve tried and they donít get me anywhere.

Cheers,

Anthony

In a fight between designers and IT, it is usually an up hill battle for the design folks. I learned design on Windows and then moved to the Mac, so I have a different view on all this. IT wants PCs because they know how to support them better, so how frequently do they have to do that? The last Community college I took classes from had a Mac lab. The only thing the IT department did was install software and provide network access. They used a G4 to clone new Intel MacPros and messed the new machines up. The teachers eventually gave up on IT and reinstalled software on the MacPros themselves.

Dale

steviem
Sep 22, 2010, 03:30 PM
I work for a company where they have a Mac Support 'specialist' and a team of Desktop Support Engineers, then there's me. A Hardware Engineer, but my role is a lot more Software/Desktop/Mobile support.

The problem I see with this is the Mac 'specialist' says it takes him over a day to roll out one Mac Pro. It takes me about 45 minutes to an hour to roll out one PC with similar extra applications and config. I know how easy it is to do a perfect image for different roles on OSX, I know how long it should really take from past experience (I rolled out 10 Mac Pros and 10 MacBook Pros at my last job), but he insists that it is a difficult procedure.

My problem here, I don't know if it's a universal thing or if he's just a lazy idiot, but his job seems so precarious because he is only able to support OSX (badly).

It isn't hard to learn how to use OSX to a level that you are able to support it and it's applications. I feel that if you are in IT support, you should be making the effort to learn how to useas many of the desktop systems in use at the company. You can still be specializing in Mac Support or whatever, but if you see the other people in your team fighting fires, you should pull your finger out and get off of break.com or facebook.

I'm studying for the Apple Certified Helpdesk Technician certification at the moment, and so far, I'm not reading or doing much off of what I have already done or what I already know. I know that if a Mac is Kernel Panicing often, it is generally down to a bad kext/bad hardware. I know where to search and how to know for sure if the problem is even a kernel panic. My biggest annoyance is when I was handed a Mac Pro, told by the specialist that 'the user says it's kernel panicing' and that it needs a new Graphics Card. I look through the logs first, see no traces of kernel panics, no subsequent restarts, nothing to indicate the user had seen a kernel panic in the life of the machine. I see lots of Extensis errors though. I get the Mac Support from another site to remotely reinstall extensis and what happens? No more problems.

I set up and support Blackberrys and very soon, Android devices, but because he is the Mac specialist, he has to configure iPhones. He doesn't know what he's doing and when an iPhone wouldn't configure properly, he put the user's username in incorrectly, he blamed it on the handset.

Now, I would be a total advocate for the cause of getting more Macs into businesses, especially with the App Store, by having xcode as an OSX only product, Apple must have opened up a lot of new mac sales, and I would guess a large amount of the recent Mac purchases are due to developers wanting to get in on the App Store bubble. In my last job before this, I was on the side of the designers despite being in IT.

sigmadog
Sep 22, 2010, 03:30 PM
IT wants PCs because they know how to support them better, so how frequently do they have to do that? The last Community college I took classes from had a Mac lab. The only thing the IT department did was install software and provide network access. They used a G4 to clone new Intel MacPros and messed the new machines up. The teachers eventually gave up on IT and reinstalled software on the MacPros themselves.

Dale

Unless the IT Dept. is simply trying to increase their kingdom, the case can be made that by using Macs, you are actually decreasing the IT Dept.'s workload.

How often has IT helped you with your Macs in the past? Compare that to how much time IT spends helping other departments with their PC's. If the Macs appear to be less IT intensive (which is my guess), your argument then becomes one of More Productivity and Less Downtime for your department using Macs, and More Efficiency by the IT Dept. for the PC users that really need help. That's an argument any bean-counter should be able to understand.

The cost of software, as mentioned, is another obvious issue.

gameface
Sep 22, 2010, 03:32 PM
Can you explain that the money they save on the PC's is going to be spent on buying all new software and licenses for the machines?

UTclassof89
Sep 22, 2010, 03:34 PM
Shave your head, start wearing camo & combat boots, and leave Soldier of Fortune magazines lying around.

Scowl all the time and stand intimidatingly close to coworkers when you talk to them.

If you keep your job, they'll be too frightened of you to change your platform :)

citizenzen
Sep 22, 2010, 03:50 PM
We don't want to transfer to a PC platform

Look... I understand why you don't wan to switch. I've been a Mac user at work and home for over 20 years.

But really, anything you do on a Mac you can do on a PC.

So I'd try to get over it.

This ain't the hill to die on.

steviem
Sep 22, 2010, 03:59 PM
Look... I understand why you don't wan to switch. I've been a Mac user at work and home for over 20 years.

But really, anything you do on a Mac you can do on a PC.

So I'd try to get over it.

This ain't the hill to die on.

This is true.

You don't want to risk your job over the computer you are using. Although, maybe start looking around regardless...

SwiftLives
Sep 22, 2010, 10:14 PM
• Quote out the number of Postscript fonts you're going to need to repurchase.

• Quote the number of any software addons or plugins you're going to need to repurchase.

• Come up with a figure for training. Personally, I haven't used Windows since the days of Windows 98. I really wouldn't have much of an idea as to how to use Windows 7.

• Also, come up with a figure for productivity lost because you're in training and can't work.

• Speaking of productivity, you've been using a Mac for awhile, I assume. You're going to be much faster on the OS X platform than the PC platform. Maybe 20% faster? 30% faster? Again - time is money.

• Also - in terms of hiring. OS X is industry standard. We actually had trouble filling a position at my company because the designers were using Windows XP instead of Macs. Anecdotal, but still possibly useful.

ezekielrage_99
Sep 22, 2010, 10:20 PM
This is an easy one :)

This is purely a ROI exercise, your KPI is to reduce running costs and maximise productivity if you can proove that a Mac overall is more cost effective then you'll keep your current setup.

1) Tell them you'd need to replace software if you change to PC this will push up the operational cost.

2) Compare the life of the PC to a Mac in you corporation, t'is cheaper to have a Mac for four years than a PC every two year ;)

The company I work for bought Dell Lappys for everyone and a Macbook Pro for me, 4 years on although a little slower my MBP is still running hard while the Dells' on average have been replaced 3 times. So what was the better buy, a 15" MBP for AUD$3,500 or 3 Dells for AUD$1,800?

3) Maintenance, this is always the deal breaker. If you're skilled a using the Mac servicing can be done by you not IT therefore reducing the impact on IT the reducing overall running cost.

4) Tell them the font support and colour grading on a PC is rubbish. This was the issue that got me a Mac at work I do lots of Broadcast work and the PC equivelant just didn't cut it.

5) Applecare, honestly it's a selling point. I was in Europe and my MBP got damaged on the flight, when into first Applestore and they fixed it right away.


BTW Swift, awesome point :)

design-is
Sep 23, 2010, 06:03 AM
You know there's a whole thread dedicated to "Why Mac for design (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1005653)"? Probably worth looking through!

Additionally, if you keep files on your local hard drives, Time Machine is a wonderful backup solution which you just don't see the likes of on a PC. However, if all your work is stored on a central server (or in an SVN etc.) that's likely being backed up anyway.

Exposť is my largest productivity reason for never wanting to go back to a PC. Being able to effortlessly swooosh (technical term ;) ) between open file, all open windows, desktop etc saves an exponential amount of time.

/Doug

opeter
Sep 26, 2010, 04:27 AM
Windows 7 has some really nice features (Aero Peak) and the new taskbar, that makes the work so much easier. I don't say it is better or not than Expose, but it is a hell of a nice desktop addition.

Anyway, there is no problems with converting PS fonts to OpenType CFF (otf with postscript outlines).

* * *

Whatever you do, I wish you good luck in your fight!