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View Full Version : New Apple TV DOES Handle 1080P




newagemac
Sep 30, 2010, 07:40 AM
http://forum.handbrake.fr/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=18102

From the Handbrake Forum:

Like Terc Iím running a variety of tests on my ATV2 to find its limits. One very interesting thing Iíve found so far is that iTunes accepts 1080p content and it can be streamed to the ATV2. In fact, the only thing Iíve been able to get the ATV to stumble on has been 1080p material.


So the old Apple TV would play 720p but would struggle if the bitrates and frame rates were too high (although it could handle higher than Apple's stated specs) and couldn't play any 1080p at all. The new one appears to handle any 720p video you can throw at it as well as 1080p up to a certain limit. So once again, Apple appears to be very conservative in its stated specs.

This is excellent news for all those who want to keep their content in 1080p. I'm sticking with 720p as the storage/convenience/quality ratios work out better for me. The only 1080p I plan to use is Blu Ray discs until internet speeds, storage, and processor speeds improve drastically. I tried editing some 1080p video once and it was a pain in the butt on a Core 2 Duo processor and storing it would have required paying twice as much in hard drives.

Still, I wonder what the 1080p limit is compared to the limit for other comparably priced boxes which claim to handle 1080p? Because as we all know, claiming to be able to handle 1080p and handling it well are two completely different things.



300D
Sep 30, 2010, 07:50 AM
Its not displaying 1080p, its downscaling the picture like when you change a video's window size on your computer. Opposite of the gimmick used on DVD players.

Hellhammer
Sep 30, 2010, 07:56 AM
WD TV Live comes with 500MHz CPU, 333MHz coprocessor and 333MHz DSP.

Boxee Box has 1.2GHz Intel Atom CE 4100.

The new TV seems to be quite powerful if the A4 is running at full 1GHz. I don't know what bitrates the boxes above can handle but they claim themselves to be fully 1080p. It's also up to the software

300D
Sep 30, 2010, 07:59 AM
CPU frequency has no connection to processing power across CPU brands.

sammich
Sep 30, 2010, 08:02 AM
Its not displaying 1080p, its downscaling the picture like when you change a video's window size on your computer. Opposite of the gimmick used on DVD players.

The important finding here is that the A4 is capable of decoding 1080p. The actual decoding is the most intense part of playing a video. I can't make flash video play any smoother if I zoom out in the browser a couple of times.

I know what you're saying, it's pointless if the output resolution of the Lowtide.app is 720p, but perhaps some hack or even Apple might enable (gasp!) proper 1080p output.

newagemac
Sep 30, 2010, 08:06 AM
Its not displaying 1080p, its downscaling the picture like when you change a video's window size on your computer. Opposite of the gimmick used on DVD players.

Where did I claim it displays 1080P? I said it plays 1080p video. You might want to reread my post.

There are people with 1080P content and they just want to play that content on their Apple TV without having to reencode and/or store two different huge HD files. If the Apple TV does play the file, it makes it far more convenient for them.

It also shows how capable the A4 processor is. Being able to decode 1080P is the hardest part. Whether or not content is displayed at that resolution is trivial in comparison technically.

newagemac
Sep 30, 2010, 08:18 AM
To be honest, I'm more excited by the fact that this means I can create some super high quality 720p video using Handbrake now and not have to worry about whether the Apple TV can handle bitrates that large. I really see no point in 1080p if 720p bitrates can go over 30mbps average on the Apple TV's A4 processor like the people posting in the Handbrake forum are claiming.

High bitrate 720p is indistinguishable to me from 1080 even on my 60" Sony DLP.

jeznav
Sep 30, 2010, 08:24 AM
The A4 chip, which is based of ARM Cortex-A8 is capable of decoding 1080p. There is an ARM Cortex-A8 device called Amex Digital MP-501 which can playback HD movies at 1080p.

http://www.slashgear.com/amex-digital-mp-501-boasts-smallest-1080p-media-player-title-1898157 (http://www.slashgear.com/amex-digital-mp-501-boasts-smallest-1080p-media-player-title-1898157)

Diveflo
Sep 30, 2010, 08:27 AM
So you really can just add m4vs with 1080p h264 in them and the ATV plays them without any hassle? What bitrates have you tried so far?

Damn...swore I wouldn't buy one :/

gnomeisland
Sep 30, 2010, 09:28 AM
So you really can just add m4vs with 1080p h264 in them and the ATV plays them without any hassle? What bitrates have you tried so far?

Damn...swore I wouldn't buy one :/

I second this it would be *awesome* to know what bitrates it could handle and with what codecs. While displaying a video in 1080p would be great, just playing them scaled down still makes the device much more appealing to me.

Diveflo
Sep 30, 2010, 09:31 AM
That + jailbreak that brings your own TV Shows & movies back to the front of the menue and I'd be sold :)

tropic10
Sep 30, 2010, 09:38 AM
Its not displaying 1080p, its downscaling the picture like when you change a video's window size on your computer. Opposite of the gimmick used on DVD players.

Do you know that it downscales to 720p or are you just assuming? That's the question that Berylium raised on the Handbrake forums and I haven't seen anyone test and confirm it yet. I'll be able to test tonight when my Apple TV arrives.

dagomike
Sep 30, 2010, 09:42 AM
To be honest, I'm more excited by the fact that this means I can create some super high quality 720p video using Handbrake now and not have to worry about whether the Apple TV can handle bitrates that large. I really see no point in 1080p if 720p bitrates can go over 30mbps average on the Apple TV's A4 processor like the people posting in the Handbrake forum are claiming.

High bitrate 720p is indistinguishable to me from 1080 even on my 60" Sony DLP.

Yeah, this is good news depending on the bitrates. I'll have to mess with this.

I would say though the biggest advantage is you could do 1080p source material to future proof your library. I suppose though you'd still want to find a common denominator for iPad and perhaps iPhone 4.

Sykotic
Sep 30, 2010, 09:44 AM
I added two 1080p rips via iTunes and played them via shared library. Both played without issue.

peterjcat
Sep 30, 2010, 09:49 AM
Do you know that it downscales to 720p or are you just assuming? That's the question that Berylium raised on the Handbrake forums and I haven't seen anyone test and confirm it yet. I'll be able to test tonight when my Apple TV arrives.

I also haven't seen this confirmed and look forward to hearing from someone with a 1080p display that displays the input resolution. Someone did say that they couldn't find the place in the Settings where you select the output resolution (as in the old Apple TV, when 1080p was added eventually), but maybe it's hidden somewhere, or maybe the Apple TV does sync to the highest available resolution even if it's 1080p.

I agree with the other comments that if the chip can decode 1080p H.264 then pushing the actual pixels to the screen should be well within capability.

Diveflo
Sep 30, 2010, 09:49 AM
I added two 1080p rips via iTunes and played them via shared library. Both played without issue.

Could you please use the app MediaInfo on those files and copy&paste the infos here?
Really appreciate it!

Sykotic
Sep 30, 2010, 09:57 AM
Could you please use the app MediaInfo on those files and copy&paste the infos here?
Really appreciate it!

V for Vendetta:
ormat : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media
Codec ID : isom
File size : 3.91 GiB
Duration : 2h 12mn
Overall bit rate : 4 223 Kbps
Genre : Action Movies
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-13 05:51:08
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-13 05:51:08

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 2h 12mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 3 957 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 25.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.080
Stream size : 3.67 GiB (94%)
Writing library : x264 core 65 r1066M 045ae40
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=umh / subme=7 / psy_rd=1.0:0.0 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / mbaff=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / wpredb=1 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40(pre) / rc=2pass / bitrate=3957 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / vbv_maxrate=25000 / vbv_bufsize=25000 / ip_ratio=1.40 / pb_ratio=1.30 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-13 05:51:08
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-13 05:53:17

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format version : Version 4
Format profile : LC
Format settings, SBR : No
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 2h 12mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 264.6 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 278 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Stream size : 246 MiB (6%)
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-13 05:53:04
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-13 05:53:17





The Bourne Ultimatum:
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media
Codec ID : isom
File size : 3.92 GiB
Duration : 1h 55mn
Overall bit rate : 4 866 Kbps
Genre : Action Movies
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-20 05:04:54
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-20 05:04:54

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 1h 55mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 4 604 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 9 603 Kbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.093
Stream size : 3.71 GiB (95%)
Writing library : x264 core 66 r1109M 75b495f
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=umh / subme=7 / psy_rd=1.0:0.0 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=3 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / mbaff=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / wpredb=1 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40(pre) / rc=2pass / bitrate=4604 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / vbv_maxrate=25000 / vbv_bufsize=25000 / ip_ratio=1.40 / pb_ratio=1.30 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-20 05:04:54
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-20 05:09:40

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format version : Version 4
Format profile : LC
Format settings, SBR : No
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 1h 55mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 264.6 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 275 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Stream size : 214 MiB (5%)
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-20 05:09:19
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-20 05:09:40

ssdeg7
Sep 30, 2010, 10:00 AM
I just don't understand why can't it just display 1080p

dagomike
Sep 30, 2010, 10:05 AM
I just don't understand why can't it just display 1080p

Apple TV 3rd Gen.
And iTunes Store is all 720p.
Probably a cost savings also.

Diveflo
Sep 30, 2010, 10:12 AM
V for Vendetta:
ormat : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media
Codec ID : isom
File size : 3.91 GiB
Duration : 2h 12mn
Overall bit rate : 4 223 Kbps
Genre : Action Movies
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-13 05:51:08
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-13 05:51:08

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 2h 12mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 3 957 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 25.0 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.080
Stream size : 3.67 GiB (94%)
Writing library : x264 core 65 r1066M 045ae40
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=umh / subme=7 / psy_rd=1.0:0.0 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=6 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / mbaff=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / wpredb=1 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40(pre) / rc=2pass / bitrate=3957 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / vbv_maxrate=25000 / vbv_bufsize=25000 / ip_ratio=1.40 / pb_ratio=1.30 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-13 05:51:08
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-13 05:53:17

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format version : Version 4
Format profile : LC
Format settings, SBR : No
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 2h 12mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 264.6 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 278 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Stream size : 246 MiB (6%)
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-13 05:53:04
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-13 05:53:17





The Bourne Ultimatum:
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media
Codec ID : isom
File size : 3.92 GiB
Duration : 1h 55mn
Overall bit rate : 4 866 Kbps
Genre : Action Movies
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-20 05:04:54
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-20 05:04:54

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 1h 55mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 4 604 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 9 603 Kbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.093
Stream size : 3.71 GiB (95%)
Writing library : x264 core 66 r1109M 75b495f
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x133 / me=umh / subme=7 / psy_rd=1.0:0.0 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=3 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / mbaff=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=3 / wpredb=1 / keyint=250 / keyint_min=25 / scenecut=40(pre) / rc=2pass / bitrate=4604 / ratetol=1.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / cplxblur=20.0 / qblur=0.5 / vbv_maxrate=25000 / vbv_bufsize=25000 / ip_ratio=1.40 / pb_ratio=1.30 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-20 05:04:54
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-20 05:09:40

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format version : Version 4
Format profile : LC
Format settings, SBR : No
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 1h 55mn
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 264.6 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 275 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Stream size : 214 MiB (5%)
Encoded date : UTC 2009-02-20 05:09:19
Tagged date : UTC 2009-02-20 05:09:40

Thanks a lot ;)
Does anyone have some "high quality" encodes with bitrates around 10k and could test those?

spatlese44
Sep 30, 2010, 10:19 AM
This is fantastic news! I too could care less about 1080P, but the ability to run just about any 720P makes me very happy. Here's my setup:

Apple TV (160 GB)
Mac Mini
EyeTV 250 Plus

I bought all this mostly so I could get rid cable, which I did, but the recordings from the EyeTV never worked with the Apple TV making the EyeTV esentially useless for me. It would play for a while and then start stuttering on the Apple TV, while playing fine on the Mini. Getting out credit card...

Sykotic
Sep 30, 2010, 10:24 AM
Thanks a lot ;)
Does anyone have some "high quality" encodes with bitrates around 10k and could test those?

I figured these were lower quality. My higher quality one's are in .mkv or other formats. I'll try and find one to test with.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 10:32 AM
Thanks a lot ;)
Does anyone have some "high quality" encodes with bitrates around 10k and could test those?

Yes, that's really what we need here. Someone with a really high quality render of 1080p video to test it. If it doesn't work, render it with a bit more compression until you find it's 1080p max specs. I'd love to learn that it can indeed handle 1080p files and that it has enough horsepower to play a pretty good level of quality.

I figured these were lower quality. My higher quality one's are in .mkv or other formats. I'll try and find one to test with.

1080HD movie trailers might be a good, quick source.

Or use Handbrake to convert just a minute or two of a highest-quality HD file you have on hand, and then test. If it doesnít play, squeeze the compression a bit more and test again. This would be BIG to learn what the device can really handle, better than 720p30fps.

Also, does your 1080p HDTV give you the ability to verify the resolution of the file it is playing. Vs. the second post in this thread, it would be good to definitively nail down if the :apple:TV is pushing out 1920 x 1080 instead of 720p. I would guess it does, because- as others have posted- the hard part is processing the file, not pushing the frames. If your HDTV can do that, you could put that one to bed too (try hitting the info button or similar, while the video is playing).

turbineseaplane
Sep 30, 2010, 10:47 AM
My big hope is for a native AppleTV Air Video app that could do away with all of these concerns, including removing iTunes from the mix.

Sykotic
Sep 30, 2010, 10:59 AM
1080HD movie trailers might be a good, quick source.


Both Harry Potter 7 trailers I have in 1080p .mov format played fine.

Diveflo
Sep 30, 2010, 11:17 AM
Both Harry Potter 7 trailers I have in 1080p .mov format played fine.

Could you do the whole mediainfo thing and post the properties of those files?

Thanks a lot ;)

Bufordt
Sep 30, 2010, 11:26 AM
Both Harry Potter 7 trailers I have in 1080p .mov format played fine.

Tested this out also. Went to the apple web site for the harry potter and 1/2 blood prince and downloaded the 1080p trailer. Imported to itunes and it ran just fine.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 11:28 AM
Both Harry Potter 7 trailers I have in 1080p .mov format played fine.

Man, that's fantastic news. Now, can you open the movie info and post the numbers there? The real question is to see what quality of 1080p it can handle (which can come from info like data rate, etc) Open the trailer in Quicktime, then choose the "Window" menu, and "Show Movie Inspector".

And, the other "biggie" is can you hit "info" or similar on your HDTV so that it shows if it is receiving a 1920x1080 signal vs. a 1280x720 signal while those are playing the trailer. One guy thinks that even if the :apple:TV can decode a 1080p file (which is the hard part by far, and you seem to be putting that one to bed), the :apple:TV may still be outputting that video as 1280x720, effectively decoding a 1920x1080 then dynamically down-converting it to 1280x720 before it pushes it out to your HDTV.

That wouldn't make a lot of sense to me (the decoding is really the workload here), but you might be able to definitively address that one.

Pretty please?

Sykotic
Sep 30, 2010, 11:28 AM
Could you do the whole mediainfo thing and post the properties of those files?

Thanks a lot ;)

Here it is for the latest trailer. I'm assuming the other trailer would be similar:

Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : QuickTime
Codec ID : qt
File size : 195 MiB
Duration : 2mn 27s
Overall bit rate : 11.1 Mbps
Encoded date : UTC 2010-09-21 19:27:24
Tagged date : UTC 2010-09-21 19:27:43
Writing library : Apple QuickTime
Media/UUID : 889087B9-6E45-4C1E-BDDE-2DA6C39F5855

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 2mn 27s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 10.5 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 798 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 2.40:1
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 24.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.285
Stream size : 184 MiB (94%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2010-09-21 19:26:53
Tagged date : UTC 2010-09-21 19:27:43
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format version : Version 4
Format profile : LC
Format settings, SBR : No
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 2mn 27s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 128 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Stream size : 2.24 MiB (1%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2010-09-21 19:26:53
Tagged date : UTC 2010-09-21 19:27:43

Menu
ID : 3
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2010-09-21 19:26:53
Tagged date : UTC 2010-09-21 19:27:43

Sykotic
Sep 30, 2010, 11:34 AM
And, the other "biggie" is can you hit "info" or similar on your HDTV so that it shows if it is receiving a 1920x1080 signal vs. a 1280x720 signal while those are playing back? One guy thinks that even if the :apple:TV can decode a 1080p file (which is the hard part by far, and you seem to be putting that one to bed), the :apple:TV may still be outputting that video as 1280x720, effectively decoding a 1920x1080 then dynamically down-converting it to 1280x720 before it pushes it out to your HDTV.

That wouldn't make a lot of sense to me (the decoding is really the workload here), but you might be able to definitively address that one.

Pretty please?

I have a Panasonic TC-P58V10 (58" 1080p plasma) and when I play one of the HP trailers it tells me via info that it's in 720p. So it looks like it is only passing it off as 720p even though it is able to handle it.

peterjcat
Sep 30, 2010, 11:37 AM
I have a Panasonic TC-P58V10 (58" 1080p plasma) and when I play one of the HP trailers it tells me via info that it's in 720p. So it looks like it is only passing it off as 720p even though it is able to handle it.

Hmm, that's a bit disappointing (but thanks). Have you been through all of the possible settings menus on the Apple TV to see if there's anything that lets you change the screen resolution?

Diode
Sep 30, 2010, 11:38 AM
Hmm, that's a bit disappointing (but thanks). Have you been through all of the possible settings menus on the Apple TV to see if there's anything that lets you change the screen resolution?

The old AppleTV up-scaled to 1080P (selectable via options) so this version shouldn't be any different.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 11:40 AM
All right. We're cooking now. Could you try the other one and post those numbers.

The most ideal trailer would be 1920 x 1080, that fills the screen with no letterboxing, has a lot of fast action/camera moving (so that everything in the picture is moving), and that is also in 5.1 surround sound. I'll jump on Apple site and see if I can find one like that, but if someone beats me to it, please post it.

peterjcat
Sep 30, 2010, 11:42 AM
The old AppleTV up-scaled to 1080P (selectable via options) so this version shouldn't be any different.

I'm hoping that's true; but, you know, the old Apple TV had 40GB/160GB storage, and the new version is pretty different in that regard :)

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 11:43 AM
The old AppleTV up-scaled to 1080P (selectable via options) so this version shouldn't be any different.

There's belief that since this one doesn't have component jacks, it auto-senses it's way to this setting via HDMI.

That's disappointing that the first trailer is showing a pass as 720p. It would be just about terrible if Apple built in hardware strong enough to decode 1080p, but then pushed the frames only at 720. The decoding is the hard part.

Please try a few more tests. Can you find any one that shows as 1080p video via your HDTV "info"?

Bufordt
Sep 30, 2010, 11:44 AM
The old AppleTV up-scaled to 1080P (selectable via options) so this version shouldn't be any different.


The new apple tv has no resolution settings. You get what you get. That's all you get.

gugy
Sep 30, 2010, 11:45 AM
Great news!
I would be amazed if someone can hack it and allow 1080p output. Sweet!

Now my second wish is external drive support, so endless storage and no need for my Mac to be on. :)

peterjcat
Sep 30, 2010, 11:46 AM
The other thing that would suck if there were no display settings is that that was how it was possible to choose between 25/50Hz and 30/60Hz refresh rates -- quite important for people with international collections.

(No 1080p also means no 24fps which would also be pretty handy, though perhaps not within the realm of reasonable expectations at this stage.)

Sykotic
Sep 30, 2010, 11:47 AM
The old AppleTV up-scaled to 1080P (selectable via options) so this version shouldn't be any different.

It is different. There's no setting for output anywhere under settings. Not under General or Audio & Video.

I played the same trailers via Plex on my Mac Mini and my TV reads 1080p.

However, I also did my best to distinguish detail/quality differences between the two playbacks (Plex on Mac Mini vs ATV2) and the same level of detail seemed to be there in items like Dumbledore's beard, etc.

I'm happy to test more trailers or whatever. I'm converting a piece of Avatar right now into a playable format.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 11:52 AM
Again, I think the resolution selection options of the old ones was because it had analog (component) connections. HDMI can sense the display settings.

Right now, it's looking like the :apple:TV has some hardware capable of decoding 1080p files (which is the biggest task), but it may have either a hardware or software limiting function pushing only 720p frames out of the box to the HDTV. I'd love for anyone to post that I'm wrong (that they are getting 1080p video signal received at their HDTV, shown by clicking something like "info" so that it shows 1920 x 1080, not 1280 x 720).

Please, anyone!

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 11:53 AM
I'm happy to test more trailers or whatever. I'm converting a piece of Avatar right now into a playable format.

Thank you for executing tests, and posting results. I look forward to the Avatar test results. If you're using Handbrake, it would be especially helpful if you really push the settings.

dguisinger
Sep 30, 2010, 11:54 AM
It is different. There's no setting for output anywhere under settings. Not under General or Audio & Video.

I played the same trailers via Plex on my Mac Mini and my TV reads 1080p.

However, I also did my best to distinguish detail/quality differences between the two playbacks (Plex on Mac Mini vs ATV2) and the same level of detail seemed to be there in items like Dumbledore's beard, etc.

I'm happy to test more trailers or whatever. I'm converting a piece of Avatar right now into a playable format.

You guys are missing an important part.
The processor may be capable, but maybe the graphics hardware doesn't actually have 1080p output; after all, it requires a higher signalling rate than sending a 720p signal over HDMI. I would assume, since it is using iPad and iPod touch hardware, they did not update the capabilities.

Decoding != the I/O interface capabilities of a device. If you have extra CPU power, you can decode all you want. It doesn't mean you can push it to the outside world if your I/O interface is lacking.

rkuo
Sep 30, 2010, 11:54 AM
Still good news, as it means there's always hope with a firmware update.

jaw04005
Sep 30, 2010, 11:56 AM
The old AppleTV up-scaled to 1080P (selectable via options) so this version shouldn't be any different.

The new Apple TV doesn’t do that. The old one supported 480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p outputs. The new one only supports a 720p output. Sounds like an iOS limitation. Most iOS devices only support 480p and 576p output via the Apple component cables. The new Apple TV is the first one to support 720p. Before the Apple TV, the iPad supported the highest output resolution at 1024x768 using the VGA to Dock connector.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 11:57 AM
You guys are missing an important part.
The processor may be capable, but maybe the graphics hardware doesn't actually have 1080p output; after all, it requires a higher signalling rate than sending a 720p signal over HDMI. I would assume, since it is using iPad and iPod touch hardware, they did not update the capabilities.

Decoding != the I/O interface capabilities of a device. If you have extra CPU power, you can decode all you want. It doesn't mean you can push it to the outside world if your I/O interface is lacking.

That's what we're trying to figure out. Yes, you are right, but I hope the implications of what you are suggesting are not right in this case. I'd really love to see someone post that they can get any 1080p signal from the :apple:TV to their HDTV (as shown by an "info" or similar click on their HDTV remote during playback).

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 12:01 PM
The new Apple TV doesnít do that. The old one supported 480p, 720p, 1080i and 1080p outputs. The new one only supports a 720p output. Sounds like an iOS limitation.

Anyone with the knowledge able to look at the ifixit breakdown to determine if this would be a hardware limitation (thus not able to be fixed with a future incarnation of iOS) or a software limitation (the hardware is there, iOS just needs an update to use it)?

Diode
Sep 30, 2010, 12:17 PM
This is beginning to sound like trying to figure out how to play 5.1 when the first ATV came out.

newagemac
Sep 30, 2010, 12:23 PM
Again, the best news is that the new Apple TV isn't bitrate limited nearly as much as the old one which makes the difference in quality between a 720p rip you can play on your Apple TV and a Blu Ray disc even smaller than it already was. If you care about quality, then that's what you'll care about most.

The other good news is if you have a 1080p file, it will still play on your Apple TV. Everything else is just minor details in my opinion.

Here's something I bet most people don't know... Apple gets its source material from a much higher quality source than Blu Ray which is why their 720p iTunes content looks so good.

fpnc
Sep 30, 2010, 12:28 PM
The new Apple TV has a fixed output resolution of 1280x720 (720p). It can't output at 1080i/p even if it could decode at that higher resolution. The same is true on the iPad, it can decode 1080p content but there is no way to get that level of resolution out of the "box."

Case in point, I posted information on the iPad's ability to decode 1080p content several months ago so there is nothing new here.

rkuo
Sep 30, 2010, 12:28 PM
There's one other Apple chip on the board ... no idea what it does. The A4 is doing the rest. Need to trace the HDMI connector back to whatever chip it's connected to ... but most likely it's going straight to the A4. I don't think the max specs of the a4 are known when it comes to display output. The highest anyone has seen previously is the iPad.

roidy
Sep 30, 2010, 12:34 PM
Here's something I bet most people don't know... Apple gets its source material from a much higher quality source than Blu Ray which is why their 720p iTunes content looks so good.

As far as I know Apple don't encode the content, the movie / TV Studio encode the content and send them to Apple to sell. This means that both the Blu-ray version and the Apple versions are more than likely encoded from exactly the same master source.

Sykotic
Sep 30, 2010, 12:38 PM
Avatar test segment:
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42
File size : 242 MiB
Duration : 6mn 6s
Overall bit rate : 5 524 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2010-09-30 16:04:58
Tagged date : UTC 2010-09-30 17:24:15
Writing application : HandBrake 0.9.4 2009112300

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 6mn 6s
Duration_LastFrame : -2mn 15s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 5 361 Kbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 072 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Minimum frame rate : 19.048 fps
Maximum frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.109
Stream size : 234 MiB (97%)
Writing library : x264 core 79
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.0:0.0 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=3 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / mbaff=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / wpredb=1 / wpredp=2 / keyint=240 / keyint_min=24 / scenecut=40 / rc_lookahead=50 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=20.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : UTC 2010-09-30 16:04:58
Tagged date : UTC 2010-09-30 17:24:15
Color primaries : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4, SMPTE RP177
Transfer characteristics : BT.709-5, BT.1361
Matrix coefficients : BT.709-5, BT.1361, IEC 61966-2-4 709, SMPTE RP177

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format version : Version 4
Format profile : LC
Format settings, SBR : No
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 6mn 6s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 160 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 183 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Stream size : 7.00 MiB (3%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2010-09-30 16:04:58
Tagged date : UTC 2010-09-30 17:24:15

Text
ID : 3
Format : Apple text
Codec ID : text
Duration : 6mn 6s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 1 bps
Stream size : 46.0 Bytes (0%)
Encoded date : UTC 2010-09-30 16:04:58
Tagged date : UTC 2010-09-30 17:24:15



Not sure it is the best source (not my area of expertise). Played, TV still read 720p. Quality looked really good but I detected just the tiniest bit of jitter here and there. Could have been a wi-fi issue, though.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 12:38 PM
The new Apple TV has a fixed output resolution of 1280x720 (720p). It can't output at 1080i/p even if it could decode at that higher resolution. The same is true on the iPad, it can decode 1080p content but there is no way to get that level of resolution out of the "box."

Case in point, I posted information on the iPad's ability to decode 1080p content several months ago so there is nothing new here.

But is that a (permanent) hardware limitation, or a (potentially not permanent) software limitation? Is it impossible to push decoded 1080p/i out of the box, or is it just impossible until Apple updates the software to "turn on" that kind of feature?

newagemac
Sep 30, 2010, 12:42 PM
That's exactly what I mean. Apple isn't ripping from Blu Ray discs. Their 720p is encoded from the master which is a much higher quality source. I was just pointing out that the Blu Ray discs are compressed and are not the highest quality source. So when you rip a Blu Ray disc you are actually ripping from an already compressed source and reencoding again. Whereas the 720p HD content on iTunes comes from the cleanest and highest quality source available.

roidy
Sep 30, 2010, 12:50 PM
That's exactly what I mean. Apple isn't ripping from Blu Ray discs. Their 720p is encoded from the master which is a much higher quality source. I was just pointing out that the Blu Ray discs are compressed and are not the highest quality source. So when you rip a Blu Ray disc you are actually ripping from an already compressed source and reencoding again. Whereas the 720p HD content on iTunes comes from the cleanest and highest quality source available.

Yep sorry, to me your statement sounded like you were saying that Apples master source was better that Blu-rays master source.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 12:51 PM
Avatar test segment:
Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 3 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 6mn 6s
Duration_LastFrame : -2mn 15s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Minimum frame rate : 19.048 fps
Maximum frame rate : 25.000 fps
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.0:0.0 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=3 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / mbaff=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=0 / b_adapt=2 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / wpredb=1 / wpredp=2 / keyint=240 / keyint_min=24 / scenecut=40 / rc_lookahead=50 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=20.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=10 / qpmax=51 / qpstep=4 / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00

Not sure it is the best source (not my area of expertise). Played, TV still read 720p. Quality looked really good but I detected just the tiniest bit of jitter here and there. Could have been a wi-fi issue, though.

That's a pretty good test. Thank you very much. I've seen enough to conclude that the :apple:TV has pretty good horses inside for doing the hard work of 1080p files: decoding.

The big question now is the one I posted to fpnc: Is the 1280x720 output from the box a (permanent) hardware limitation, or a (potentially not permanent) software limitation? Is it impossible to push decoded 1080p/i out of the box no matter what, or is it just impossible until Apple updates the software to "turn on" that kind of feature?

I'm tremendously encouraged by the 1080p decoding. That's HUGE. Now I'm hoping someone with deep hardware knowledge can post a definitive answer to the above. If it's just a software switch, it could come with any update. If it's a hardware limitation, it can never come in this box "as is".

Anyone?

DotCom2
Sep 30, 2010, 12:53 PM
I have a Panasonic TC-P58V10 (58" 1080p plasma) and when I play one of the HP trailers it tells me via info that it's in 720p. So it looks like it is only passing it off as 720p even though it is able to handle it.

So how does it look on your 58" Plasma?

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 12:58 PM
Avatar test segment:

Not sure it is the best source (not my area of expertise). Played, TV still read 720p. Quality looked really good but I detected just the tiniest bit of jitter here and there. Could have been a wi-fi issue, though.

Sykotic, would you happen to have the ability to grab any 720p60fps content like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciW54nJLvEw and see if it will play on :apple:TV.

You've almost ruled out that it can push out anything about 720p "as is". So I'm now wondering if it can push out something better than 720p30fps. Since Apple tends to share specs below what's possible, maybe it can do a fuller version of the 720p spec at 60 frames per second? This wouldn't involve needing to hit "info" on your HDTV (unless is happens to show frames per second)- just see if 720p60fps would play.

For fast action video, 60fps > 30fps > 24fps.

rkuo
Sep 30, 2010, 01:04 PM
But is that a (permanent) hardware limitation, or a (potentially not permanent) software limitation? Is it impossible to push decoded 1080p/i out of the box, or is it just impossible until Apple updates the software to "turn on" that kind of feature?

I doubt anyone here can answer that question. We don't know what's going on in that A4 chip. Someone is going to have to jailbreak the device, actively change the output resolution, and see if it actually works.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 01:12 PM
So, the playback hardware is also embedded in the A4 itself, not separate from it (so encoding could be done within the A4, then have the frames pushed through a 720p gatekeeper external to the chip)?

Bummer (if true). That would mean we either have a stealth 1080p player just waiting for the Apple Gods to throw a software switch, or we have a device with the horses for decoding but no where for them to run (to our 1080pHDTVs). So, we really can't know this particular thing from the ifixit breakdown. All of it is inside the A4?

Sykotic
Sep 30, 2010, 01:16 PM
Sykotic, would you happen to have the ability to grab any 720p60fps content like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciW54nJLvEw and see if it will play on :apple:TV.

You've almost ruled out that it can push out anything about 720p "as is". So I'm now wondering if it can push out something better than 720p30fps. Since Apple tends to share specs below what's possible, maybe it can do a fuller version of the 720p spec at 60 frames per second? This wouldn't involve needing to hit "info" on your HDTV (unless is happens to show frames per second)- just see if 720p60fps would play.

For fast action video, 60fps > 30fps > 24fps.

I went to the YouTube app on the ATV2 and did a search for 720p60fps and played 4 different files. All played fine. I can't say for certain that it wasn't downgrading.

rkuo
Sep 30, 2010, 01:19 PM
So, the playback hardware is also embedded in the A4 itself, not separate from it (so encoding could be done within the A4, then have the frames pushed through a 720p gatekeeper external to the chip)?

Bummer (if true). That would mean we either have a stealth 1080p player just waiting for the Apple Gods to throw a software switch, or we have a device with the horses for decoding but no where for them to run (to our 1080pHDTVs). So, we really can't know this particular thing from the ifixit breakdown. All of it is inside the A4?

There's only one other unknown chip on the board and it's also from Apple. So yeah, there are no published specs here that I'm aware of. Jailbreaking and testing seems like the only way to figure it out.

Cave Man
Sep 30, 2010, 01:19 PM
But is that a (permanent) hardware limitation, or a (potentially not permanent) software limitation? Is it impossible to push decoded 1080p/i out of the box, or is it just impossible until Apple updates the software to "turn on" that kind of feature?

Supposedly, the A4 is a rebranded Cortex A9, which can do 1080p. Not sure about framerate, though. A9 specs on NVidia board:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/tegra_250.html

BlackMangoTree
Sep 30, 2010, 01:24 PM
It's great it can playback 1080p. I don't think it's that much of a deal if it doesn't output 1080p, i for one find it very hard to tell the difference between bluray and ripped bluray on my Apple TV on a 50 inch Panasonic plasma. 1080p

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 01:26 PM
I went to the YouTube app on the ATV2 and did a search for 720p60fps and played 4 different files. All played fine. I can't say for certain that it wasn't downgrading.

Again, thank you so much for testing & reporting. I've been looking all around for a 720p60fps video that you could download, but I haven't found anything not on some torrent. I thought some of the 720p camcorder manufacturers would have sample videos, but so far no luck. Anyone know where we can definitely download a fast-action, m4v, mp4, or mov file that is definitely encoded as 720p60fps? That's the last of the HD tests I'd want to throw at this box.

dhy8386
Sep 30, 2010, 01:27 PM
I mean i think its a big deal for a lot of people that it doesnt output 1080P but i think the most important fact is that it seems to be able to play your existing 1080P content without the need to do any further mods to your library. This is huge as it allows you to continue your normal process for ripping and storing movies and still take advantage of the ATV2 by streaming this content to it and playing on your TV.

That way when a new one comes out capable of 1080p or it is hacked to be able to do so, your already if great shape.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 01:29 PM
It's great it can playback 1080p. I don't think it's that much of a deal if it doesn't output 1080p, i for one find it very hard to tell the difference between bluray and ripped bluray on my Apple TV on a 50 inch Panasonic plasma. 1080p

That's great for you. There are those of us who can see the difference on our setups, and we can't be convinced to not care because someone else on their own setup can't tell the difference. This battle of "I can't see the difference, so why should YOU care" has been fought and fought in other threads. Could we not fight it again in this thread?

If you can't see the difference, this product is great for you! If you can see the difference but don't care much about that difference, this product is also great for you. We're hunting for the possibilities for those of us who can see the difference and do care about it- or even for those who only think they can see the difference.

BlackMangoTree
Sep 30, 2010, 01:34 PM
That's great for you. There are those of us who can see the difference on our setups, and we can't be convinced to not care because someone else on their own setup can't tell the difference. This battle of "I can't see the difference, so why should YOU care" has been fought and fought in other threads. Could we not fight it again in this thread?

If you can't see the difference, this product is great for you! If you can see the difference but don't care much about that difference, this product is also great for you. We're hunting for the possibilities for those of us who can see the difference and do care about it- or even for those who only think they can see the difference.

I am confused, all i said is i can't see the difference.

Anyway i just ripped some 1080p stuff in various ways going to try them out now i'll report back with my findings.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 01:39 PM
Sorry BlackMango, maybe I'm a bit hypersensitive having been on the bashed side of the "720p is good enough" arguments in various other threads over and over, which is often backed my "most people can't see the difference", which usually means "they can't see the difference" and I jumped to the conclusion that you might be going down that path too.

Thank you for testing, and I look forward to seeing your results. If you have a HDTV that will show you what video format is being pushed to it (by pushing a button like "info" during playback), you could be second to confirm that regardless of the 1080p file being decoded, only 720p leaves the box. Look for it to either say 1920 x 1080 or 1280 x 720, or maybe 1080p or 720p on your HD (info) screen while you play your test videos.

I'd love it if you would come back saying that on your HDTV, it says it's receiving better than 1280 x 720 or better than 720p. That would re-fire the potentials (and hope, for my own applications).

dhy8386
Sep 30, 2010, 01:40 PM
Again, thank you so much for testing & reporting. I've been looking all around for a 720p60fps video that you could download, but I haven't found anything not on some torrent. I thought some of the 720p camcorder manufacturers would have sample videos, but so far no luck. Anyone know where we can definitely download a fast-action, m4v, mp4, or mov file that is definitely encoded as 720p60fps? That's the last of the HD tests I'd want to throw at this box.

Here are a few links for you to test out. Just join Vimeo and then you can download the original sources movies in 720p 60fps

http://vimeo.com/14022191
http://vimeo.com/12609777

Let us know.

Shoesy
Sep 30, 2010, 01:42 PM
WOW. I really hope my newly opening iStore has an appletv on Saturday morning now!

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 01:44 PM
Here are a few links for you to test out. Just join Vimeo and then you can download the original sources movies in 720p 60fps

http://vimeo.com/14022191
http://vimeo.com/12609777

Let us know.

Thanks for locating those.

I don't have a (new) :apple:TV yet. I want to buy 2 of them if they output 1080p. I love the 2006 edition, so this is the ONE big thing I've been waiting for. Could someone who has one, please put those to the test?

And again, if your HDTV has a "info" button or similar, could you click it during playback and share what it tells you it's getting from the Apple TV while playing these files? I wonder if it might convert 720p60fps to 720p30fps, or will it actually pass 720p60fps to the HDTV. The latter would be quite a whopper (good) discovery from this grass roots testing effort.

philipk
Sep 30, 2010, 01:48 PM
Could we not fight it again in this thread?


You are the one who keeps starting the fight in thread after thread.

BlackMangoTree just said he can't see the difference.

In another thread, you picked a fight with me when I stated the same and also stated most experts don't see the difference either.

I took the bait and fought with you. One thread was enough.

I just don't like that you start the fight over and over in different threads and claim it is the "don't see the difference" fault.

I don't care if you can see the difference. However, I am entitled to my opinion that I and most experts say that we don't see the difference.

This is my one and only post in this thread about "I can see the difference".

philipk
Sep 30, 2010, 01:49 PM
This is VERY good news that it can decode 1080p.

I plan to start ripping Blu-Ray’s so that I can use my library on the road. My wife and I take frequent weekend get aways and like having our whole DVD library available. Though we don’t take our ATV with us, I like to rip at the highest quality possible. So it is good news that I can decode a 1080p signal on the new ATV.

Sykotic
Sep 30, 2010, 01:51 PM
Here are a few links for you to test out. Just join Vimeo and then you can download the original sources movies in 720p 60fps

http://vimeo.com/14022191
http://vimeo.com/12609777

Let us know.

Downloaded the first and it played fine. Second one didn't have a download link. Said not available for download. My TV will show it is in 720p but doesn't show any info on framerate.

FrancisD
Sep 30, 2010, 01:51 PM
This is beginning to sound like trying to figure out how to play 5.1 when the first ATV came out.

haha, or DTS. so true.

FrancisD
Sep 30, 2010, 01:52 PM
Here's something I bet most people don't know... Apple gets its source material from a much higher quality source than Blu Ray which is why their 720p iTunes content looks so good.

That's really interesting and something I've wondered about - is there any data out there you can point me to? I'd love to know more about this.

peterjcat
Sep 30, 2010, 01:54 PM
And again, if your HDTV has a "info" button or similar, could you click it during playback and share what it tells you it's getting from the Apple TV while playing these files? I wonder if it might convert 720p60fps to 720p30fps, or will it actually pass 720p60fps to the HDTV. The latter would be quite a whopper (good) discovery from this grass roots testing effort.

I think the only way to test this will be visually. The Apple TV will certainly sync with the TV at 60Hz (well 59.94Hz), whether it plays every frame of a 60fps clip or just doubles every second frame. 30fps material will just double every frame and 24fps material will use 3:2 pulldown to get to 60Hz. The TV will likely report 60Hz every time. (A separate video processor might give more information?)

fpnc
Sep 30, 2010, 01:58 PM
Supposedly, the A4 is a rebranded Cortex A9, which can do 1080p. Not sure about framerate, though. A9 specs on NVidia board:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/tegra_250.html

Apple's A4 is based upon the ARM Cortex A8, not the A9. In any case, the CPU core isn't the key factor, it's the GPU core that is embedded in the A4 chip which is reported to be the PowerVR SGX 535.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 01:58 PM
You are the one who keeps starting the fight in thread after thread.

BlackMangoTree just said he can't see the difference.

In another thread, you picked a fight with me when I stated the same and also stated most experts don't see the difference either.

phillipk, our "fight" started with me asking could someone test to see if the :apple:TV could do better than specs by playing 1080p- exactly what is going on by participants in this thread. Then you jumped in slinging a whole bunch of crap about why I shouldn't care or want it." A bunch of other cheerleaders jumped in with you.

I offered logical responses to some of those posts, but you would think I called your kid ugly or something. That's what made me so sensitive to his post in this thread (which is about hunting for the limits of what the new :apple:TV can do, not trying to make it perfect for everyone with whatever limitations it has).

I'm tired of that fight. And since you so passionately argued against why I should be interested in 1080p playback, why are you here in a thread about 1080p playback? Shouldn't you be bashing this whole effort as "hardware overkill"- especially if it turns out that anyone can get 1080p out of the device? (both questions are rhetorical, I don't really care to read your answers).

This is my one and only post in this thread about "I can see the difference".

That's great! Best I've seen from you in the last 30 hours or so.

If you want to execute some constructive tests like the others, I look forward to seeing your posts. If you want to continue to bash me- for looking for exactly what others in this thread are trying to figure out- more power to you.

philipk
Sep 30, 2010, 01:59 PM
That's really interesting and something I've wondered about - is there any data out there you can point me to? I'd love to know more about this.

newagemac wrote a clarification of this post.

What he meant was Apple does not rip a Blu-ray disk as their source. They get it from a higher quality master and most likely the same master used by Blu-ray.

When you remove an intermediate step, you get a better quality file.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 02:00 PM
I think the only way to test this will be visually. The Apple TV will certainly sync with the TV at 60Hz (well 59.94Hz), whether it plays every frame of a 60fps clip or just doubles every second frame. 30fps material will just double every frame and 24fps material will use 3:2 pulldown to get to 60Hz. The TV will likely report 60Hz every time. (A separate video processor might give more information?)

Some HDTVs show frames per second. I bought my Mom a Samsung 1080p HDTV that shows that. But I don't have an :apple:TV (version 2) for testing myself. The outcome of these tests decide if I'm buying 2.

philipk
Sep 30, 2010, 02:02 PM
And since you so passionately argued against why I should be interested in 1080p playback, why are you here in a thread about 1080p playback.

This thread was started about decoding and not about playback.

And as usual, you didn't read my next post, you just bashed me.

peterjcat
Sep 30, 2010, 02:03 PM
Downloaded the first and it played fine. Second one didn't have a download link. Said not available for download. My TV will show it is in 720p but doesn't show any info on framerate.

Plus the first clip isn't actually 60fps -- it was captured at 60fps but downconverted before/during uploading to Vimeo. So the actual clip is only 29.97fps (still better than original Apple TV, but not by much!).

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 02:10 PM
Plus the first clip isn't actually 60fps -- it was captured at 60fps but downconverted before/during uploading to Vimeo. So the actual clip is only 29.97fps (still better than original Apple TV, but not by much!).

OK. Can anyone locate a downloadable 720p60fps file that has not been converted to 720p30 in the render?

If the :apple:TV is currently capped at 720p output (regardless of source file), but- as we've seen in this thread- it can indeed do better than specs (not a huge surprise, the old one could do a little better than specs too), maybe it can max out the 720p spec with 60fps? A definitive test of 720p60fps encode would do the trick.

720p60fps would be a BIG deal over the published specs- especially for anything that involves a lot of fast action or camera movements (like shooting sports with a 720p60fps HD camcorder).

dhy8386
Sep 30, 2010, 02:14 PM
This is VERY good news that it can decode 1080p.

I plan to start ripping Blu-Rayís so that I can use my library on the road. My wife and I take frequent weekend get aways and like having our whole DVD library available. Though we donít take our ATV with us, I like to rip at the highest quality possible. So it is good news that I can decode a 1080p signal on the new ATV.

So I have been using Boxee and Windows Media Center until now. All my Blu Rays are ripped as perfect copy ISOs and as well as untouched MKVs (yes im doubled up because i was trying to find best process for me). I was hesitant to move to the AppleTV because I didnt want to have to convert and compress my blu rays. For those more experienced than I, this is my question:

Now that we know the ATV2 will handle 1080P relatively high bit rate content, what would be the best process for converting Blu Rays to as close to the original content as possible? I know I cant use MKV so what would be the second best container to use? What programs would you suggest? Is there a way to do what I do with the MKVs but just to the MP4 or MV4 container?

Right now I use MakeMKV on my PC. Simple. I mount the ISO i created when ripped using AnyDVD HD open MakeMKV and i get my MKV 1 hour later.

I know this has been discussed but most of those discussions involve compressing to 720P or less for old AppleTV and iPad, etc.

Curious on your process or what you expect to be your process. Thanks.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 02:15 PM
Apple's A4 is based upon the ARM Cortex A8, not the A9. In any case, the CPU core isn't the key factor, it's the GPU core that is embedded in the A4 chip which is reported to be the PowerVR SGX 535.

Can the PowerVR SGX 535 deliver 1080p/i to an HDTV? Or is it hardware capped at 720p?

BlackMangoTree
Sep 30, 2010, 02:18 PM
Videos with Format profile : High@L5.0 don't play.

dhy8386
Sep 30, 2010, 02:20 PM
Plus the first clip isn't actually 60fps -- it was captured at 60fps but downconverted before/during uploading to Vimeo. So the actual clip is only 29.97fps (still better than original Apple TV, but not by much!).

Maybe just that one clip? Go to Vimeo and search for 60fps. You will get hundreds of videos recorded in 60fps. Unless Vimeo downconverts it (which i dont think it does since you can find 1080p content, etc) another one of the clips should be true 60fps

How about this one

http://vimeo.com/14669993

Sykotic
Sep 30, 2010, 02:22 PM
Maybe just that one clip? Go to Vimeo and search for 60fps. You will get hundreds of videos recorded in 60fps. Unless Vimeo downconverts it (which i dont think it does since you can find 1080p content, etc) another one of the clips should be true 60fps

How about this one

http://vimeo.com/14669993

I'll download it and play it in Plex on my MacMini which should give me info on fps. If it is above 30 then I'll test on the ATV2.

UPDATE: Plex showed it hovering around 30 fps with a max of around 30.17 from what I saw. ATV2 played it fine but doesn't seem to be anything out of the norm.

fpnc
Sep 30, 2010, 02:24 PM
OK. Can anyone locate a downloadable 720p60fps file that has not been converted to 720p30 in the render?...
Why don't you just create a 60fps video using Quicktime? Start with a series of still frames that are numbered 1 to 60 and then use Quicktime to create a video using those frames which will display a different number for each frame. If you want you could overlay the numbers with a complex scene to test the decoding quality along with the framerate numbers.

BlackMangoTree
Sep 30, 2010, 02:27 PM
This 720p 60fps video played back perfectly.

General
Complete name :
/Users/Desktop/Stevegarfield-Cars720p60fpsKodakZi8Test2759.MOV
Format :
MPEG-4
Format profile :
QuickTime
Codec ID :
qt
File size :
14.3 MiB
Duration :
6s 306ms
Overall bit rate :
19.1 Mbps
Movie name/More :
KODAK Zi8 Pocket Video Camera
Encoded date :
UTC 2009-08-19 09:41:59
Tagged date :
UTC 2009-08-19 09:41:59
Origin :
Digital Camera
AMBA :

Video
ID :
1
Format :
AVC
Format/Info :
Advanced Video Codec
Format profile :
Main@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC :
Yes
Format settings, ReFrames :
4 frames
Format settings, GOP :
M=3, N=15
Codec ID :
avc1
Codec ID/Info :
Advanced Video Coding
Duration :
6s 306ms
Bit rate mode :
Variable
Bit rate :
18.9 Mbps
Maximum bit rate :
10.6 Mbps
Width :
1 280 pixels
Height :
720 pixels
Display aspect ratio :
16:9
Frame rate mode :
Variable
Frame rate :
59.940 fps
Minimum frame rate :
59.920 fps
Maximum frame rate :
59.960 fps
Color space :
YUV
Chroma subsampling :
4:2:0
Bit depth :
8 bits
Scan type :
Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) :
0.342
Stream size :
14.2 MiB (99%)
Title :
Ambarella AVC / Ambarella AVC
Language :
English
Encoded date :
UTC 2009-08-19 09:41:59
Tagged date :
UTC 2009-08-19 09:41:59

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 02:27 PM
Why don't you just create a 60fps video using Quicktime? Start with a series of still frames that are numbered 1 to 60 and then use Quicktime to create a video using those frames which will display a different number for each frame. If you want you could overlay the numbers with a complex scene to test the decoding quality along with the framerate numbers.

Again, I don't have an (new version) :apple:TV yet. I'm depending on others who do have one to get the answers I seek, which then drives whether I'll buy 2 of them.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 02:30 PM
This 720p 60fps video played back perfectly.

WOW! That's freaking great!

Thank you for executing that test. Did you happen to have an HDTV that shows if that video is coming out of the :apple:TV at 60fps?

It could be throwing out frames on the playback (actually passing it as 720p30fps), much like it appears to be decoding 1080p but only pushing out a down-converted 720p version that actually flows to the HDTV. If your HDTV doesn't show that kind of info, could anyone else do that test?

Sykotic
Sep 30, 2010, 02:32 PM
It could be throwing out frames on the playback, much like it appears to be decoding 1080p but only pushing out a down-converted 720p version that actually flows to the HDTV. If your HDTV doesn't show that kind of info, could anyone else do that test?

I will say this, every 1080p video I've played looked significantly better, even downgraded, than the 720 files I've been testing.

BlackMangoTree
Sep 30, 2010, 02:38 PM
WOW! That's freaking great!

Thank you for executing that test. Did you happen to have an HDTV that shows if that video is coming out of the :apple:TV at 60fps?

No my Tv wont give that info here is the file is anyone would like to try it.

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/SteveGarfieldsVideoBlog/~5/Ryhud5Miso8/Stevegarfield-Cars720p60fpsKodakZi8Test2759.MOV

fpnc
Sep 30, 2010, 02:43 PM
Can the PowerVR SGX 535 deliver 1080p/i to an HDTV? Or is it hardware capped at 720p?

It may not make any difference since I'm not sure whether the PowerVR supplies the hardware drivers that are needed for the HDMI output. It's possible that the final video output stage is in some other chip.

In any case, Apple is most likely the only one who knows one way or the other. As for iTunes allowing 1080p encoded video to be streamed to the new Apple TV that could change in the next version of iTunes since they usually block any content that doesn't conform to the published specs. That's the way it is on the iPad, iTunes won't transfer such content to the iPad but if you use a third-party file transfer app you can play 1080p content on the iPad.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 02:44 PM
I will say this, every 1080p video I've played looked significantly better, even downgraded, than the 720 files I've been testing.

Really? Now that's certainly something. You got anyone else there with you to do an impromptu, blind head-to-head (same video file like your Avatar one coded for 1080p vs. a 720p30fps version)?

Your own eval makes sense in that a higher quality source file being down-converted should max out the lower quality output. But I would have guessed that a 720p native render would do just as well. So that's definitely interesting.

Are you sure that your HDTV is showing that it is receiving a 1080p render delivered as a 1280x720 (720p) file? You're hitting the "info" or similar button while the video is playing back?

dagomike
Sep 30, 2010, 02:44 PM
WOW! That's freaking great!

Thank you for executing that test. Did you happen to have an HDTV that shows if that video is coming out of the :apple:TV at 60fps?

It could be throwing out frames on the playback (actually passing it as 720p30fps), much like it appears to be decoding 1080p but only pushing out a down-converted 720p version that actually flows to the HDTV. If your HDTV doesn't show that kind of info, could anyone else do that test?

I think most TVs either do 24 or 30 fps. 1080i60 is a progressive pulldown, but I'm not familiar with 720p60 or why you'd even want it.

Sykotic
Sep 30, 2010, 02:46 PM
No my Tv wont give that info here is the file is anyone would like to try it.

http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/SteveGarfieldsVideoBlog/~5/Ryhud5Miso8/Stevegarfield-Cars720p60fpsKodakZi8Test2759.MOV


Plex showed 60fps and ATV2 played it fine. Took a little longer to buffer than the others but played.

jeznav
Sep 30, 2010, 02:46 PM
Can the PowerVR SGX 535 deliver 1080p/i to an HDTV? Or is it hardware capped at 720p?

Here is what PowerVR can decode:

http://www.imgtec.com/factsheets/powervr/POWERVR_VXD_Video_Decoder_IP_Core_Family.pdf

Sykotic
Sep 30, 2010, 02:48 PM
Are you sure that your HDTV is showing that it is receiving a 1080p render delivered as a 1280x720 (720p) file? You're hitting the "info" or similar button while the video is playing back?

Yes, I hit it during playback but it isn't necessarily file information. It could just be reporting back out what the ATV2 says it is which is a 720p device. Playing the same file from the Mac Mini/Plex and doing an info the TV shows 1080p.

BlackMangoTree
Sep 30, 2010, 02:50 PM
I am having much better luck with playing video over ethernet rather than wirelessN, videos that struggle on WirelessN play perfect over ethernet.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 02:52 PM
I think most TVs either do 24 or 30 fps. 1080i60 is a progressive pulldown, but I'm not familiar with 720p60 or why you'd even want it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/720p It's the max for 720p as speced by the ATSC HD standards. Basically, I take it to mean that if the display can handle it, it gives you excellent detail in fast motion or camera pans, reducing judder (jumps) common at slower fps speeds. The long-term justification for it has always been pitched as best for fast-moving sports.

I shoot a lot of sports, and have been looking at 60fps video cameras.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 02:55 PM
Yes, I hit it during playback but it isn't necessarily file information. It could just be reporting back out what the ATV2 says it is which is a 720p device. Playing the same file from the Mac Mini/Plex and doing an info the TV shows 1080p.

I wonder how we could nail this down for sure??? Does an HDMI connected HDTV show whatever the source says it should show, or does it show whatever it's really getting? I would guess the latter, but your subjective evaluations that 1080p encodes look better than 720p encodes sure makes one wonder.

I suppose if there was a way to connect the HDMI cable to some kind of recorder, some of that video output from the :apple:TV could be recorded, and then we could look at the Quicktime properties of that recording to see what's really coming out of the :apple:TV. I would think that would work since we're not pumping DRM'd content through HDMI. But I don't know for sure.

Maybe somebody has an HDMI to mini-display port cable and the necessary stuff to try that? Or anything else that let's them record a little non-DRM'd video via HDMI?

One more time, THANK YOU for continuing to try all this stuff, and report.

fpnc
Sep 30, 2010, 03:01 PM
Again, I don't have an (new version) :apple:TV yet. I'm depending on others who do have one to get the answers I seek, which then drives whether I'll buy 2 of them.

You don't have to do it anyone can, but if you did you could supply that video to someone who had one of the new Apple TVs. Furthermore, with the frame numbers you might be able to determine whether each frame is being displayed or whether it is being down sampled to a lower rate. With a properly designed set of test images you could even check for dropped frames (maybe a spinning wheel -- one quarter black and three quarters white -- where each frame advances by 1/4 turn).

I can't really help beyond this suggestion since my only internet connected device right now is my iPad 3G. I can't even use my newly purchased Apple TV since it requires an internet connection to complete the setup (it doesn't even allow you to stream from a computer unless you can connect to the iTunes Store to verify your Apple ID -- a limitation apparently caused by its new reliance on Home Sharing to connect between the computer/iTunes and the Apple TV).

BlackMangoTree
Sep 30, 2010, 03:03 PM
Various 720p 60fps videos play perfectly, though i can't be sure since my TV doesn't have the info. They do look butter smooth though.

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 03:06 PM
Various 720p 60fps videos play perfectly, though i can't be sure since my TV doesn't have the info. They do look butter smooth though.

If they are being passed at 720p60fps, "butter smooth" is what they should look like. Do any of them have a lot of fast action, such as the camera moving rapidly left & right (like shooting a Tennis or Basketball game from half court sidelines)?

Cave Man
Sep 30, 2010, 03:18 PM
Apple's A4 is based upon the ARM Cortex A8, not the A9. In any case, the CPU core isn't the key factor, it's the GPU core that is embedded in the A4 chip which is reported to be the PowerVR SGX 535.

I don't know for certain, but this is where I found the A9 reference:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/28/apples-a4-is-an-arm-based-system-on-a-chip-a-la-tegra-2/

gugy
Sep 30, 2010, 03:24 PM
Guys,
Thanks for the effort in looking into this.

I have a good feeling that ATV 2 might indeed be the HTPC I am looking for. Sorry MacMini. :D
I just hope they also find a way to hack it for support for external storage without a Mac on at all times.
1080p is great because I want to transcode everything at that resolution, even if ATV doesn't play it now, maybe down the road they will. Just don't want to transcode at 720p and repeat it later at 1080p. That is a hassle.

utee05
Sep 30, 2010, 03:39 PM
I don't know for certain, but this is where I found the A9 reference:

http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/28/apples-a4-is-an-arm-based-system-on-a-chip-a-la-tegra-2/

Nope, the A4 has a Cortex a8 with the SGX535 as the graphics core. Not sure what they use for video since the the SGX535 only handles the graphics and the PowerVR VXD handles the video.

WiiDSmoker
Sep 30, 2010, 03:55 PM
Guys,
Thanks for the effort in looking into this.

I have a good feeling that ATV 2 might indeed be the HTPC I am looking for. Sorry MacMini. :D
I just hope they also find a way to hack it for support for external storage without a Mac on at all times.
1080p is great because I want to transcode everything at that resolution, even if ATV doesn't play it now, maybe down the road they will. Just don't want to transcode at 720p and repeat it later at 1080p. That is a hassle.

You can encode everything to 1080P right now and the aTV will down scale it to 720P

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 04:01 PM
You can encode everything to 1080P right now and the aTV will down scale it to 720P

That's not confirmed yet. The guys over in the Handbrake forums are doing a lot of experimenting searching for the limits along these lines. There are limits, but they don't know them yet.

It does appear favorable that things are going to work in that direction: encode video at 1080p if you like, and this :apple:TV will be able to dynamically down-convert it to 720p and push it to your HDTV. Personally, I consider that a much more favorable OPTION to being forced to live within the published specs, which, in my case, would mean encoding a 1080p file for the long-term archives AND a 720p copy for :apple:TV, OR having to go with one of the alternatives to :apple:TV so that the one master render could be used.

In general, it looks like a pretty good spec of 1080p encoding is going to be compatible with the new :apple:TV. I would guess the Handbrake crew will have some solidly definitive info on this soon.

However, it is funny that they keep referring back to this thread, as people here are figuring some things out faster than they are. Either way, we all win as definitive info matures thorough collective efforts of all involved. I- for one- certainly appreciate everyone testing and posting results. It's great to learn that there is more to this little box than immediately meets the eye (and published specs).

WiiDSmoker
Sep 30, 2010, 04:03 PM
That's not confirmed yet. The guys over in the Handbrake forums are doing a lot of experimenting searching for the limits along these lines. There are limits, but they don't know them yet.

It does appear favorable that things are going to work in that direction: encode video at 1080p if you like, and this :apple:TV will be able to dynamically down-convert it to 720p and push it to your HDTV. Personally, I consider that a much more favorable OPTION to being forced to live within the published specs, which, in my case, would mean encoding a 1080p file for the long-term archives AND a 720p copy for :apple:TV, OR having to go with one of the alternatives to :apple:TV so that the one master render could be used.

In general, it looks like a pretty good spec of 1080p encoding is going to be compatible with the new :apple:TV. I would guess the Handbrake crew will have some solidly definitive info on this soon.

However, it is funny that they keep referring back to this thread, as people here are figuring some things out faster than they are. Either way, we all win as definitive info matures thorough collective efforts of all involved. I certainly appreciate everyone testing and posting results.

Yep! It's gonna be great if I can encode all my Blu-Rays to M4V 1080P and keep the HD Audio for future proofing for a new Apple TV and for the current Apple TV

HobeSoundDarryl
Sep 30, 2010, 04:05 PM
Absolutely. It should also help with your massive storage server project too: one master copy to feed your Apple TV, instead of two copies of the same video (or 3 if you are also still wanting to archive the entire discs).

gugy
Sep 30, 2010, 04:07 PM
Yep! It's gonna be great if I can encode all my Blu-Rays to M4V 1080P and keep the HD Audio for future proofing for a new Apple TV and for the current Apple TV

sounds like a good deal.

utee05
Sep 30, 2010, 04:18 PM
Yeah I'd like it if someone got it to the point where you can stream media to ATV. I have all of my DVDs and BD/HD rips on a NAS in an MKV container. I pretty much left the rips as is and did not re-encode them, so I'm hoping something will come out to let me view them on ATV. I would really want one of these for the bedroom as I have HTPCs in my main viewing areas already.

JAT
Sep 30, 2010, 04:34 PM
I think most TVs either do 24 or 30 fps. 1080i60 is a progressive pulldown, but I'm not familiar with 720p60 or why you'd even want it.

All Fox, ABC, and related networks' HD content is 720p60. And other networks.

Plus, many digicams that double as HD video camcorders have 720p60.

And TVs are generally 60Hz. You may have also seen the late trend of multiples of 60 in LCD TVs. 120Hz, 240Hz models. They will generally accept 24 or 30Hz input, but the output is usually 24, 60, 120, 240.

lixe
Sep 30, 2010, 05:02 PM
Great News!

Could someone test which levels are supported (3.1, 4.1, 5.1)? And is it possible to change the level without complete reencoding?
And one question more, what exactely is the difference between 4.0 and 4.1? I only know, that higher levels support higher resolution and more bitrate...

roidy
Sep 30, 2010, 05:46 PM
And one question more, what exactely is the difference between 4.0 and 4.1? I only know, that higher levels support higher resolution and more bitrate...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264/MPEG-4_AVC#Levels

4.1 just has higher maximum bitrates.

Frazzle
Sep 30, 2010, 07:27 PM
It does appear favorable that things are going to work in that direction: encode video at 1080p if you like, and this :apple:TV will be able to dynamically down-convert it to 720p and push it to your HDTV. Personally, I consider that a much more favorable OPTION to being forced to live within the published specs, which, in my case, would mean encoding a 1080p file for the long-term archives AND a 720p copy for :apple:TV, OR having to go with one of the alternatives to :apple:TV so that the one master render could be used.

But, but, but... What about HD audio? I doubt the ATV will be able to extract the core 5.1 audio from that.

Also, 1080p24 has no equivalent in 720p. My TV has no mode for 720p24. I've always bought gear that can display movies as intended, so it looks like the ATV is not for me in that respect. I hate judder.

I hear you about not having to archive stuff in two formats. But isn't the ATV about enjoying content? What's to enjoy if you have to jump through all these hoops to make it work? Decoding 1080p, scaling it to 720p and then having my display scale it back up to 1080p (native panel resolution) is just silly. This is 2010, I'm done with crap like that.

I have all my Blu-rays ripped as untouched ISO's so I'd have to redo everything anyway, lose all the menus in the process, be worried about subtitle support etc. It's just not worth the hassle. The whole point about internet bandwidth and streaming is also moot as Apple doesn't offer anything to stream in my country. Shame, as my connection can sustain 20 Mbit.

So I bit the bullet and bought an HDI Dune yesterday. It plays absolutely everything, Blu-rays play as if you popped in the disc, full menus, HD audio bitstreaming, 24/30/50/60 Hz, deep colour etc. I may still buy the ATV to do AirPlay, but the Airport Express is cheaper.

So, nice device when you live in the US. For my needs, the Dune is a better choice right now. We'll see how this hobby evolves.

britbloke
Sep 30, 2010, 09:46 PM
To really stress test the ATV2 you could try the "killa sample" that people have used to test XBMC installs. A quick Google should find the file.

Basically it's a high bitrate MKV file (would need to be converted (or maybe remuxed?) to Apple safe files) taken from BBC Planet Earth. It's a shot of thousands of birds flying as the camera zooms out. The specs are 1080p, 33.1 Mbps 5.1 profile 16 ref frames video sequence.

http://i37.tinypic.com/107jqec.jpg

Each one of those dots is a bird. It's certainly a breathtaking scene on Blu-Ray.

Very demanding sample but some XBMC Live install's a ION hardware can run it smoothly.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 1, 2010, 03:17 AM
I don't know what 1080p video people are playing i have yet to manage to get any 1080p to play back smoothly, far too many dropped frames. Out of the box 1080p is rather poor.

JordanNZ
Oct 1, 2010, 04:00 AM
I don't know what 1080p video people are playing i have yet to manage to get any 1080p to play back smoothly, far too many dropped frames. Out of the box 1080p is rather poor.

Check your wifi.

sammich
Oct 1, 2010, 04:22 AM
I don't know what 1080p video people are playing i have yet to manage to get any 1080p to play back smoothly, far too many dropped frames. Out of the box 1080p is rather poor.

Check the h.264 profile used to encode it. The standard in low powered devices is Profile 3.1 (or Main Profile). The higher profiles are more computationally intensive to decode but produce better picture quality at the same bit rate. If you have media that isn't playing smoothly, consider re-encoding it in a lower profile at a higher bit rate.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 1, 2010, 04:31 AM
Check the h.264 profile used to encode it. The standard in low powered devices is Profile 3.1 (or Main Profile). The higher profiles are more computationally intensive to decode but produce better picture quality at the same bit rate. If you have media that isn't playing smoothly, consider re-encoding it in a lower profile at a higher bit rate.

It is encoded in 3.1 using handbrake even tried ajusting some of the advanced setting, nothing seemed to mae the video play smoothly

Sykotic
Oct 1, 2010, 07:56 AM
It is encoded in 3.1 using handbrake even tried ajusting some of the advanced setting, nothing seemed to mae the video play smoothly

Are you on wifi or ethernet?

HobeSoundDarryl
Oct 1, 2010, 08:40 AM
The Handbrake team have also noticed stuttering via wifi. One tried a wide variety of encodes but the stuttering remained consistent, which makes little sense if the hardware is too weak (less complicated encodes should do better than more complicated encodes). His working guess is that the wifi just can't keep up, so he was planning to try some wired connections with the same videos and report. He hasn't reported on that yet.

I can post from experience with the old one that wifi can be the culprit for some stuttering, even on lessor videos (like 720p and SD encodes). As a result, I've used a long-term wired setup which has always performed well. Those testing 1080p encodes and seeing some stuttering issues, might want to temporarily hook up the cat5e cable, test the exact same videos, and see if that makes any difference. My somewhat-educated guess is that it will make a difference (though small conciliation for those who cannot- or choose to not- have a permanent wired connection).

newagemac
Oct 1, 2010, 08:41 AM
Yeah for the best experience streaming 1080p you are going to need to be on ethernet on both ends. Even the PS3 drops frames streaming 1080p over wifi N. Wifi N on just one of the devices is usually pretty reliable if you have a good connection though. A Wifi G connection on either device is definitely not going to work well. You need a direct ethernet connection on both devices to ensure a good experience streaming 1080p and preferably gigabit.

In other words, streaming 1080p is a "bag of hurt" :D and not practical for most people which is why Apple decided on 720p. I wired up my home with gigabit ethernet connections to every room when I had it built but people like me are in a very small minority.

philipk
Oct 1, 2010, 08:48 AM
In other words, streaming 1080p is a "bag of hurt" :D and not practical for most people which is why Apple decided on 720p. I wired up my home with gigabit ethernet connections to every room when I had it built but people like me are in a very small minority.


I have both my basement computer and family room ATV on a gigabit ethernet connection. It works perfectly together.

Same computer and bedroom ATV which is 5 Ghz WiFi, and it works OK with 720p.

With different computer that is WiFi only (2 Ghz) and bedroom ATV, the streaming slow down. It is a long wait to start program and it stuttered once in an hour with a 720p signal.

I have to figure a way to get wired on the second floor.

BTW
I am using a Dual Band Airport Extreme

newagemac
Oct 1, 2010, 08:56 AM
I have both my basement computer and family room ATV on a gigabit ethernet connection. It works perfectly together.

Same computer and bedroom ATV which is 5 Ghz WiFi, and it works OK with 720p.

With different computer that is WiFi only (2 Ghz) and bedroom ATV, the streaming slow down. It is a long wait to start program and it stuttered once in an hour with a 720p signal.

I have to figure a way to get wired on the second floor.

BTW
I am using a Dual Band Airport Extreme

This is the same thing with my experience. I am not surprised at all. Except I did all my testing with a PS3 and 1080p content. I came to the realization that streaming HD content was definitely going to require an ethernet connection for me to be at all satisfied. It will work on Wifi but the experience can be frustrating. Forget about trying it with G speeds. For N, you need at least one of the devices on ethernet and the wireless one must have a strong connection.

HobeSoundDarryl
Oct 1, 2010, 09:29 AM
In other words, streaming 1080p is a "bag of hurt" :D and not practical for most people which is why Apple decided on 720p. I wired up my home with gigabit ethernet connections to every room when I had it built but people like me are in a very small minority.

I see the "big grin" so I'm hoping that's not a shot to try to restart the debate about 720p vs. 1080p again (been done over and over in other threads). I can say that I have a LOT of experience with this particular issue using the old :apple:TV, and the result was the same with 720p content too: some stuttering over wifi, not stuttering when wired. I have a pretty robust setup, so if Apple wanted to build for the "masses", they probably shouldn't embrace 720p either, as it too seems to be able to push beyond the limits of wifi in some cases. Clearly, neither camp seems to want that though.

There is little doubt that a wired setup is going to be better (I even chose the wired keyboard option for the new iMac i7 Quad for this reason). The thing I would like to know is whether guys- like BlackMangoTree- reporting 1080p content stuttering are trying to stream via wifi. And, if so, could they make a temporary wired connection and try the exact same video again to see if it stutters.

Both here and at the Handbrake forums, there's some people reporting good results playing 1080p files on :apple:TV, though some report stuttering and some don't. It seems lots of people are trying to chase down if this is:

a wifi problem?
an encoding problem (too intense for Apple TV)?
an AppleTV weakness (it just can't do it at a reliable level)?

The first one is easy to rule out with some wired testing. Lots of people seem to be working on the second one (indeed, the cousin of this thread over at handbrake involves a search for the perfect, works-with-about-everything encoding parameters for 1080p video). Only Apple probably knows the 3rd one with absolute certainty.

German
Oct 1, 2010, 10:51 AM
Supposedly, the A4 is a rebranded Cortex A9, which can do 1080p. Not sure about framerate, though. A9 specs on NVidia board:

http://www.nvidia.com/object/tegra_250.html

http://www.abload.de/img/facepalm8wky.jpg

BlackMangoTree
Oct 1, 2010, 01:44 PM
Are you on wifi or ethernet?

I have tried both wireless N and ethernet no difference.

After lots of tests i have found the Apple TV just can't do 1080 well, even the quicktime HD trailers i have tried and they drop frames.

I can't see how wifi could make is stutter. Even when the movie have fully loaded onto the Apple Tv it still drops frames.

Apple Tv just can't 1080p at this stage.

gugy
Oct 1, 2010, 02:25 PM
I have tried both wireless N and ethernet no difference.

After lots of tests i have found the Apple TV just can't do 1080 well, even the quicktime HD trailers i have tried and they drop frames.

I can't see how wifi could make is stutter. Even when the movie have fully loaded onto the Apple Tv it still drops frames.

Apple Tv just can't 1080p at this stage.

That's not good.
I was so pumped yesterday. :(

fpnc
Oct 1, 2010, 02:26 PM
The WiFi in the Apple TV may be the problem. Since it's based upon the same chip set as in the iPad and the WiFi in the iPad has been shown (by some -- your results may vary) to be rather slow. Those who are having problems with WiFi should check the link rate that is reported by their basestation (to the Apple TV). If it's anything like the iPad the link rate may be down in the teens which is an order of magnitude below what a really good 802.11n system should deliver.

If you must use wireless you may have better luck using a dedicated wireless basestation to establish an extended network from which you can run wired Ethernet to the Apple TV. This is usually the best setup for the TV/living room anyway since you'll likely have additional internet connected devices in that same location. My preferred setup used a Ethernet switch to connect my Apple TV, Playstation 3, SlingBox, and a PowerPC Mac mini to an AirPort Express which provided the wireless link to my AirPort Extreme and cable modem (which were located in another part of the house).

HobeSoundDarryl
Oct 1, 2010, 02:35 PM
Me too.

Others are claiming some success with 1080p. So my hopes are not entirely in the dumper. But that does seem bad. Now if someone can just post something saying it's working flawlessly for them.

BlackMangoTree, is there 1+ particular 1080p trailer that is problematic for you? Maybe if you identify a particular one or two, someone else who thinks its working well for them could try that trailer(s) and see what happens?

wifi can make it stutter for the same reasons that some are so quick to claim "720p is good enough": bandwidth. If your home wifi bandwidth gets tight, or the receiving machine didn't quite get what it needed, or other devices in your home are "online" (and thus taking a share of wifi at the same time), etc, they could eat up some home bandwidth and slow down your signal flows. Wired rules out stuff like wifi interference, the types of materials in your home's construction, etc. If it's still happening with wired, either:

it just can't do 1080p (or at least some 1080p)
the encodes are too intense (which is pretty much the first one)
something cramping your signal flow at your house (router?)

The only one that would be great news for everyone else is the third one. The second one could turn into something good (the Handbrake guys are working through that one). The first one is the dreaded one for everyone.

I've seen posts by others saying it's working for them. So at least there's still some hope.

PurdueGuy
Oct 1, 2010, 02:38 PM
wifi interference, the types of materials in your home's construction, etc. If it's still happening with wired, either:

it just can't do 1080p (or at least some 1080p)
the encodes are too intense (which is pretty much the first one)
something cramping your signal flow at your house (router?)

The only one that would be great news for everyone else is the third one. The second one could turn into something good (the Handbrake guys are working through that one). The first one is the dreaded one for everyone.

I've seen posts by others saying it's working for them. So at least there's still some hope.
The AppleTV buffers content, even local stuff. So even if your network is bogged down, it will just pause and wait.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 1, 2010, 02:48 PM
I can't see how ethernet or wifi will produce different results. WirelessN is more than fast enough to load the full movie onto the Apple Tv in no time at all and from my tests wirelessN and ethernet to the Apple Tv are about the same speed.

Id love to get 1080p playing smoothly, i have tried many files encoded in may ways and no luck at all. Too many dropped frames.

spacepower7
Oct 1, 2010, 02:48 PM
Great News!

Could someone test which levels are supported (3.1, 4.1, 5.1)? And is it possible to change the level without complete reencoding?
And one question more, what exactely is the difference between 4.0 and 4.1? I only know, that higher levels support higher resolution and more bitrate...

I have 720p 4.1 high profile working......better to let it buffer for a few minutes.

Also 5.0 main profile standard def seems to work fine.

Interestingly, loaded a 720p 4.1 high profile last night.....
Switched to iTunes music playlist for a couple songs...
Came back to the AppleTv 20 hours later, woke it up, reconnected with my iTunes, selected the same movie......

The whole movie is still loaded in that 8GB memory/buffer!!!!!

Tested fast forwarding thru the whole movie....it's all there, no reloading :)

Going to test my canon T2i footage later

dopechess
Oct 1, 2010, 02:48 PM
can someone answer me with a simple yes/no.... will it play movies with 5.1 AAC?

BlackMangoTree
Oct 1, 2010, 02:52 PM
can someone answer me with a simple yes/no.... will it play movies with 5.1 AAC?

Yes.

dynaflash
Oct 1, 2010, 02:57 PM
can someone answer me with a simple yes/no.... will it play movies with 5.1 AAC?
It'll play 'em ... BUT will mix them down to Dolby Pro Logic 2.

Short Answer: Yes
Long Answer: sort of

BlackMangoTree
Oct 1, 2010, 03:08 PM
The 1080p Harry Potter trailer that people claim plays fine doesn't for me you can clearly see frames being dropped. The trailer is fully loaded onto the Apple TV.

dopechess
Oct 1, 2010, 03:12 PM
It'll play 'em ... BUT will mix them down to Dolby Pro Logic 2.

Short Answer: Yes
Long Answer: sort of

Great! i encode all my DVDs using Nero recode to Mpeg4, h264 with 5.1 AAC.

anyone else have success playing nero recode videos?? Sorry for all the questions, but i don't want to end up buying a device that won't work. My PS3 does a great job of streaming these types of videos from my PC. Only reason i would go for the ATV is if it can do this at a lower price.

HobeSoundDarryl
Oct 1, 2010, 03:15 PM
The 1080p Harry Potter trailer that people claim plays fine doesn't for me you can clearly see frames being dropped. The trailer is fully loaded onto the Apple TV.

A guy using the name LowLight, posted this over at the Handbrake forums:

"I just tried downloading the 1080P Harry Potter and Deathly Hallows trailer from the Quicktime website. I dropped it into itunes and streamed it to the ATV2 where it played within seconds and without any hitches. It obviously downgraded the resolution to 720P but I was impressed with how fast it loaded up. Of note, I'm using 80211-N. When someone hacks into this thing and allows it to display in 1080P, the real tests will start"

So, could someone else be the tiebreaker here? Maybe a couple of people?

dopechess
Oct 1, 2010, 03:16 PM
The 1080p Harry Potter trailer that people claim plays fine doesn't for me you can clearly see frames being dropped. The trailer is fully loaded onto the Apple TV.

do you have a n-router? if it is dropping frames, you're wireless connection is probably not optimal. try adjusting your router position to get a better signal.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 1, 2010, 03:17 PM
I would use Handbrake to encode your dvd's quality ease of use it the best.

http://forum.handbrake.fr/

PurdueGuy
Oct 1, 2010, 03:17 PM
do you have a n-router? if it is dropping frames, you're wireless connection is probably not optimal. try adjusting your router position to get a better signal.

The AppleTV buffers, even locally streamed content. The network will NOT affect playback quality. It will affect how quickly the stream starts.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 1, 2010, 03:23 PM
do you have a n-router? if it is dropping frames, you're wireless connection is probably not optimal. try adjusting your router position to get a better signal.

N or ethernet makes no difference,the network speed makes zero difference. i am playing the movie back from the HDD, the video is fully loaded onto the Apple TV

HobeSoundDarryl
Oct 1, 2010, 03:27 PM
The AppleTV buffers, even locally streamed content. The network will NOT affect playback quality. It will affect how quickly the stream starts.

I think it only buffers a little. For example, start a movie, give it plenty of time to stream over the whole movie, then shut down your Mac. The movie will immediately stop.

I've noticed that when streaming a movie to :apple:TV AND doing some heavy duty stuff on the source Mac, the movie will stutter sometimes. Stop doing the heavy duty stuff, no stutter.

That's subjective as I don't know for sure, but I believe the buffer is not such that playback gets too far ahead when streaming. Thus, if true, when playback would catch up to what's fed to it, a delayed wifi stream would stutter or stop playback until more could get passed to it.

Again, this is not for certain- I don't know for sure- but I can pretty much make that happen on demand on my end. If my :apple:TV was streaming well ahead of the current point of playback it would have plenty of content to keep playing until I stopped doing whatever I was doing (so it could resume the stream at full speed). Try it yourself.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 1, 2010, 03:27 PM
A guy using the name LowLight, posted this over at the Handbrake forums:

"I just tried downloading the 1080P Harry Potter and Deathly Hallows trailer from the Quicktime website. I dropped it into itunes and streamed it to the ATV2 where it played within seconds and without any hitches. It obviously downgraded the resolution to 720P but I was impressed with how fast it loaded up. Of note, I'm using 80211-N. When someone hacks into this thing and allows it to display in 1080P, the real tests will start"

So, could someone else be the tiebreaker here? Maybe a couple of people?

Well unless my Apple Tv is faulty the Harry Potter trailer clearly drops frames.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 1, 2010, 03:31 PM
I think it only buffers a little. For example, start a movie, give it plenty of time to stream over the whole movie, then shut down your Mac. The movie will immediately stop.

Thats incorrect.

Once the movie is fully loaded on the Apple TV you can switch your computer off and it will still continue playing

HobeSoundDarryl
Oct 1, 2010, 03:31 PM
Well unless my Apple Tv is faulty the Harry Potter trailer clearly drops frames.

Yes, I'm not calling you a liar. We basically have 2 :apple:TVs that might be performing at different levels. If the Handbrake guy's experience proves out, I would guess you got something wrong with your :apple:TV, or there's something going on between your computer and your :apple:TV. Or, he can't see the frame drops that you're seeing. That's why I asked others to do this specific test.

If the crowd has his experience, you need to do some more detective work, or perhaps start thinking about exchanging your :apple:TV. If your experience is common on other tests, then he is mistaken about what he saw.

Either way, you, he and we will all figure it out, which should be a win for all interested.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 1, 2010, 03:34 PM
Yes it would be great to have some other people try the Harry Potter trailer.

HobeSoundDarryl
Oct 1, 2010, 03:35 PM
Once the movie is fully loaded on the Apple TV you can switch your computer off and it will still continue playing

That's not my (streaming) experience. If you sync a movie on an :apple:TV, that is exactly right. If you download a film from iTunes (rental/buy), once it gets to 100% on the download, that is exactly right. If I am streaming a movie, but then something kicks off iTunes or shuts down the source Mac, the movie stops... even if I've been watching for 50-75% of the movie run time. I just had this happen a few nights ago, where I had to reboot the source Mac while the rest of the family were watching (a streamed, not synced) Dances with Wolves. They were way into it, but the moment the Mac rebooted, they were immediately out of it.

My experiences are on the old model :apple:TV, so perhaps the new one works differently???

BlackMangoTree
Oct 1, 2010, 03:38 PM
I just played an episode of Happy Days once it was fully loaded i quit iTunes and it continued playing. Apple TV 2

The new Apple Tv has far superior streaming from iTunes blows the first Apple Tv out of the water.

HobeSoundDarryl
Oct 1, 2010, 03:40 PM
Well that's good news.

On the Harry Potter tests, take note of post #25 in this same thread.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 1, 2010, 03:44 PM
ok im going to re download both Harry Potter trailers and try again.

Just tried The Lion of the Judah 1080p trailer and it's unwatchable.

dopechess
Oct 1, 2010, 03:49 PM
I would use Handbrake to encode your dvd's quality ease of use it the best.

http://forum.handbrake.fr/

i beg to differ. nero recode is one of the best out there.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 1, 2010, 04:01 PM
The Harry Potter trailer does play better than any other 1080 video i have tried though it still drops frames in places.

1920 by 1080 video drops far far too many frames to be watchable.

Every 1080 video i have tried so far if i rewind or forward 8 out of 10 times it crashes the Apple TV.

My final conclusion is that the Apple TV in it's current state is not good enough for 1080p

Hopefully with future updates 1080p will become a reality.

Bufordt
Oct 1, 2010, 04:14 PM
Both Harry Potter 7 trailers I have in 1080p .mov format played fine.

Yep. Both that I took the time to download. (Which for all you people who want 1080i or p or what ever) might want to take a vacation while it downloads as it's going to take a long, long, long, long time to download a whole movie over the internet. Played just fine. Now, do they up convert? Down convert? Sideways convert? I don't know and I really don't care. It plays and it plays just fine.

bukiwhitey
Oct 1, 2010, 04:54 PM
I just downloaded The lion of judah and harry potter 7 1080p trailers.

Both played flawlessly.

I have a cat 5 ethernet connection.

HobeSoundDarryl
Oct 1, 2010, 06:44 PM
BlackMango, unless these latter guys don't know how to see dropped frames (I think that's unlikely), I believe you have a problem with your particular hardware. I wouldn't assume it's the :apple:TV, so I would suggest checking other stuff (router).

However, if the new :apple:TV does fully buffer the video before it plays, then I would start having a lot of suspicions that your own :apple:TV has some kind of problem. Multiple guys are posting that the things you're testing look good. Only you- that I've seen so far- seem to be having consistent problems with these 1080p file playback.

If you have some way to rule out all your other stuff, I would do that- even try different cables for the wired connection. My current guess though is that your :apple:TV is about to be exchanged. Sorry.

Mike in Kansas
Oct 1, 2010, 07:35 PM
The Harry Potter trailer does play better than any other 1080 video i have tried though it still drops frames in places.

1920 by 1080 video drops far far too many frames to be watchable.

Every 1080 video i have tried so far if i rewind or forward 8 out of 10 times it crashes the Apple TV.

My final conclusion is that the Apple TV in it's current state is not good enough for 1080p

Hopefully with future updates 1080p will become a reality.

Sounds like you have a bad unit...

potatis
Oct 1, 2010, 08:30 PM
The AppleTV upscales to 1080p, at least the old one did. So now it downscales and then upscales? Great.

PurdueGuy
Oct 1, 2010, 08:37 PM
The AppleTV upscales to 1080p, at least the old one did. So now it downscales and then upscales? Great.

Right now it downconverts 1080i/p, and upconverts 480i/p.
It only outputs 720p.

HobeSoundDarryl
Oct 1, 2010, 09:31 PM
Right now it downconverts 1080i/p, and upconverts 480i/p.
It only outputs 720p.

I generally consider it a winner to leave the up-converting to what should be better circuitry for that built into our HDTVs. I would think that most HDTVs will have better hardware for that than a $99 box. Maybe that's why Apple chose to do that too? (Of course, I would much rather see someone find a way to make these new :apple:TVs export that 1080p content they appear to be decoding well- which is the hard part- at 1080p).

However, it does create some potential mismatches if someone buys a cheap HDTV that can't handle 720p conversions (if such a thing exists). Also, some have apparently verified that this new :apple:TV can work with 720p60fps video, which is the highest of the 720p ATSC HD standards and a full 30fps above the (Apple) published specs for this :apple:TV. That's great news from a processing standpoint as 720p60fps exists for fast action video like sports (to minimize stutter).

I don't think anyone has had the equipment to verify if this :apple:TV can push the 720p60fps out to the HDTV at 60fps though, which could also be a potential issue for cheap HDTV sets if they couldn't handle that version of 720p. I don't know of such sets, so maybe there's nothing to worry about here. I thought the Handbrake guys would be all over 720p60, but I don't see much discussion about that (they all seem to be chasing down the very best settings for "works-with-about-everything" 1080p renders).

Sykotic
Oct 1, 2010, 09:41 PM
I got the sense it was possibly dropping frames on the Avatar sample I did that was 1080p. There was the slightest hint of jitter every now and then.

I didn't notice any of that on the HP trailers, The Bourne Ultimatum, or V for Vendetta tests I did. If it is dropping frames in a way that I can't perceive well then I honestly don't care.

Also, what do you mean by "fully loaded to the HDD"? Are you implying you paused it and waited for it to fully load? Are you even certain it does truly fully load or does it just cache a certain amount and then proceed to continue downloading once you finally start playing it?

There's only 8gb of flash memory in this unit. No hard-disk drive.

JordanNZ
Oct 1, 2010, 10:12 PM
N or ethernet makes no difference,the network speed makes zero difference. i am playing the movie back from the HDD, the video is fully loaded onto the Apple TV

You seem to be the only person having trouble.

smetvid
Oct 1, 2010, 10:50 PM
The perfect way to test if you are actually seeing 720p 60p video is to create a video where a solid black frame and a solid white frame alternate every other frame. If the Apple TV is playing the 60p video then you will get a strobing video. If it only plays the 60p as 30p then you will only see solid black or solid white depending on which color you use first. I used to have test pattern videos to test this sort of thing but I'm sure where they are anymore.

A lot of people use HDV or AVCHD cameras that only shoot 1080i 60i interlaced video. Yes this can be converted to 720p 30p for the Apple TV but you end up loosing half the framerate when you do this. Interlaced video looks like 60p video and is how we view most reality based video and TV. A 60p option for the Apple TV will allow people to convert their home movies and actually watch them at the same framerate they were recorded at.

Finally yes 1080p video down convert by the Apply TV may look better. This is because you are taking a compressed video and scaling it down. 720p compressed video scaled up to a 1080 HDTV is going to blow up your artifacts slightly. There is also a lot of color sub sampling going on in video compression. Basically you have half the amount of color pixels so the color channels in your 720p video are more like 640x360 resolution. A 1080p video on the other hand can have 960x540 color pixel channels and when it is scaled down you will see much better color accuracy.

thecypher
Oct 1, 2010, 11:45 PM
Tell me if I am doing something wrong. I took my Avatar Blu-Ray disk and used Makemkv to make a full 1080p Mkv file which turned out close to 49+ GB. Then I used Quicktime Pro and loaded the mkv file (perian is installed). It took a long while for Quicktime to completely load the movie. Of course quicktime could not play the movie at all practically. The image was all disintegrated, freezing and I could barely see any picture. It played just fine using VLC and Plex however. After Quicktime loaded the movie completely I did a "Save As" mov file as suggested by some posts in this forum as the most straightforward way to convert mkv to mov. The save took quite a while and I ended up with a mov file slightly larger than the original mkv. Probably about 51GB. Added it to the iTunes library and tried to load it from ATV with no luck. I kept getting an error message something to the effect of the movie file could not be loaded try again later. Not sure what I am missing.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 2, 2010, 12:35 AM
I just downloaded The lion of judah and harry potter 7 1080p trailers.

Both played flawlessly.

I have a cat 5 ethernet connection.

Sorry this i cannot believe, i have tried the same trailers on 3 different Apple Tv's and they clearly drop frames. The lion of judah is very bad.

And i don't think i am the only person having dropped frames, i think i'm the only person reporting the truth or there are many blind people lol.

Take the The lion of judah trailer convert it in Handbrake with the high profile peset set the RF to 16 and the resolution to 1280 x 720 and play that back and see how much smoother it is.

The Apple Tv will fully load the entire movie onto the Apple TV even if you switch it off and then play back the same movie it will but still all on the internal HDD.

JordanNZ
Oct 2, 2010, 01:26 AM
Sorry this i cannot believe, i have tried the same trailers on 3 different Apple Tv's and they clearly drop frames. The lion of judah is very bad.

And i don't think i am the only person having dropped frames, i think i'm the only person reporting the truth or there are many blind people lol.

Take the The lion of judah trailer convert it in Handbrake with the high profile peset set the RF to 16 and the resolution to 1280 x 720 and play that back and see how much smoother it is.

The Apple Tv will fully load the entire movie onto the Apple TV even if you switch it off and then play back the same movie it will but still all on the internal HDD.

"lol" :rolleyes:

BlackMangoTree
Oct 2, 2010, 01:55 AM
"lol" :rolleyes:

Laugh all you want. The Apple Tv just doesn't play 1080p well.

rkuo
Oct 2, 2010, 02:31 AM
I can't watch that Lion of Judah trailer any more. It's terrible.

Anyway, there are clearly hitches in the video when starting up a 1080p trailer, but after it gets going there are no clear places to pick out frame drops and it's just a feeling. I do feel like going back to the 720p trailer that it is smoother but it's not really based on anything. Either it is keeping up with the framerate or it is really good at dropping frames consistently.

I suppose for a more definitive answer someone could put the 720p and 1080p trailers side by side on two different tv's. Or run a high speed 600 or 1000 fps camera.

Diveflo
Oct 2, 2010, 02:58 AM
Tell me if I am doing something wrong. I took my Avatar Blu-Ray disk and used Makemkv to make a full 1080p Mkv file which turned out close to 49+ GB. Then I used Quicktime Pro and loaded the mkv file (perian is installed). It took a long while for Quicktime to completely load the movie. Of course quicktime could not play the movie at all practically. The image was all disintegrated, freezing and I could barely see any picture. It played just fine using VLC and Plex however. After Quicktime loaded the movie completely I did a "Save As" mov file as suggested by some posts in this forum as the most straightforward way to convert mkv to mov. The save took quite a while and I ended up with a mov file slightly larger than the original mkv. Probably about 51GB. Added it to the iTunes library and tried to load it from ATV with no luck. I kept getting an error message something to the effect of the movie file could not be loaded try again later. Not sure what I am missing.

Hi,
yes we are talking about compressed 1080p content. Your bluray rip IS compressed but just very little in comparison to the files the other people around here are testing. Your file has bitrates around 50mb/s I guess? The files that are being discussed here are around 5 to 10...
Even if the AppleTV COULD handle that kind of content, your network (doesn't really matter if wired or wireless) certainly could not.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 2, 2010, 03:49 AM
I can't watch that Lion of Judah trailer any more. It's terrible.

Anyway, there are clearly hitches in the video when starting up a 1080p trailer, but after it gets going there are no clear places to pick out frame drops and it's just a feeling. I do feel like going back to the 720p trailer that it is smoother but it's not really based on anything. Either it is keeping up with the framerate or it is really good at dropping frames consistently.

I suppose for a more definitive answer someone could put the 720p and 1080p trailers side by side on two different tv's. Or run a high speed 600 or 1000 fps camera.

Look at 52 seconds the pan over the town it clearly drops frames. the clouds at the end clearly drop frames the birds drop frames.

Viewing the same trailer connected to the same TV playing on a 2009 Mac Mini through quicktime looks far superior no stutter jolting at all.

Sykotic
Oct 2, 2010, 07:24 AM
Laugh all you want. The Apple Tv just doesn't play 1080p well.

I find it funnier that you think it has an internal HDD when it doesn't.

It has 8gb of flash NAND memory. I'm sure it builds a library of the content and may even keep a certain amount cached. But with such limited storage it just isn't feasible or possible for it to store a lot of content.

I blame your network, not my eyesight.

Sykotic
Oct 2, 2010, 07:27 AM
Hi,
yes we are talking about compressed 1080p content. Your bluray rip IS compressed but just very little in comparison to the files the other people around here are testing. Your file has bitrates around 50mb/s I guess? The files that are being discussed here are around 5 to 10...
Even if the AppleTV COULD handle that kind of content, your network (doesn't really matter if wired or wireless) certainly could not.

Yes, that rip is about 6 times larger than my compressed .mkv of Avatar. I believe mine is in the neighborhood of 5 mbps. So even at a rough calculation of 6 times my bitrate, his would be 35mbps which is far above the capabilities of his network & router unless he's running gigabit with something above cat5 (cat6 and fiber would handle it -- on paper anyway).

BlackMangoTree
Oct 2, 2010, 08:06 AM
I find it funnier that you think it has an internal HDD when it doesn't.

It has 8gb of flash NAND memory. I'm sure it builds a library of the content and may even keep a certain amount cached. But with such limited storage it just isn't feasible or possible for it to store a lot of content.

I blame your network, not my eyesight.

My network ? impossible, the video is played back once fully loaded onto the Apple TV. There is clear frames dropping. Yes, one must have bad eye sight not to see it.

Over the same network i stream the trailer from my iMac to my MacMini connected to the Plasma playing through xbmc and see no frames drop at all. Plays back smooth.

Just so we are on the same page this is the trailer we are talking about http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/independent/thelionofjudah/ ?

Sykotic
Oct 2, 2010, 08:11 AM
My network ? impossible, the video is played back once fully loaded onto the Apple TV. There is clear frames dropping. Yes, one must have bad eye sight not to see it.

You are missing the point. How do you know it is fully loaded onto the ATV? Because the bar across the bottom is full? All that indicates is that it has buffered it's default amount. It doesn't mean it loaded the entire video onto flash memory.

More likely is that it's buffering it enough that you don't see the frames dropping early and then you do when it actually has to rely on your network speed again.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 2, 2010, 08:18 AM
You are missing the point. How do you know it is fully loaded onto the ATV? Because the bar across the bottom is full? All that indicates is that it has buffered it's default amount. It doesn't mean it loaded the entire video onto flash memory.

More likely is that it's buffering it enough that you don't see the frames dropping early and then you do when it actually has to rely on your network speed again.

Either way there is nothing wrong with the netwrok over wirelessN tried with 2 different routers and even over ethernet it drops frames. When playing the same trailer on a MacMini over the network it plays back smooth.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 2, 2010, 08:25 AM
You are missing the point. How do you know it is fully loaded onto the ATV? Because the bar across the bottom is full? All that indicates is that it has buffered it's default amount. It doesn't mean it loaded the entire video onto flash memory.

Once the bar is full white the whole movie is fully loaded onto the Apple TV. You can even turn the Apple TV off and come back 10 hours later and play the same movie and it wont buffer at all as it's still loaded onto the Apple TV.

thecypher
Oct 2, 2010, 08:37 AM
Yes, that rip is about 6 times larger than my compressed .mkv of Avatar. I believe mine is in the neighborhood of 5 mbps. So even at a rough calculation of 6 times my bitrate, his would be 35mbps which is far above the capabilities of his network & router unless he's running gigabit with something above cat5 (cat6 and fiber would handle it -- on paper anyway).

So is there a setting in makemkv that you need to use to compress the rip by reducing the bitrate? I do have a gigabit network over which my blu-ray iso files play fine in media center. I understand atv only does 100 Mbps Ethernet. But if I recall right I have played blu-ray iso over 100mbps ethernet in the past without issues. Can't play over wireless n without stuttering and freezing but I believe it plays over 100 Mbps LAN.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 2, 2010, 08:45 AM
So is there a setting in makemkv that you need to use to compress the rip by reducing the bitrate? I do have a gigabit network over which my blu-ray iso files play fine in media center. I understand atv only does 100 Mbps Ethernet. But if I recall right I have played blu-ray iso over 100mbps ethernet in the past without issues. Can't play over wireless n without stuttering and freezing but I believe it plays over 100 Mbps LAN.

MakeMKV and Apple TV don't go together, after you use MakeMKV you will need to encode your movie with another application like Handbrake.

T4R06
Oct 2, 2010, 09:02 AM
i recommend to use dual band router. "simultaneous" my apple TV and MAC are connected to 5GHz. my all other wireless devices are on 2.4GHz. no buffering at all

Diveflo
Oct 2, 2010, 12:05 PM
So is there a setting in makemkv that you need to use to compress the rip by reducing the bitrate? I do have a gigabit network over which my blu-ray iso files play fine in media center. I understand atv only does 100 Mbps Ethernet. But if I recall right I have played blu-ray iso over 100mbps ethernet in the past without issues. Can't play over wireless n without stuttering and freezing but I believe it plays over 100 Mbps LAN.

If you use Blu-Rays as source you need to encode them down with a 3rd party application. Handbrake the guy above me mentioned is a good choice.
The best settings for the new AppleTV are still being discussed (the preset "Apple TV" in Handbrake is for the old one, your's will handle much much more!). You can check handbrake.fr for further info, on what the guys over there figure out...they're the real experts in that field.
The encodes will unfortunately take some time to finish, but you will have unbelievably great encodes if you let it take it's time and use Blu-Ray as your source ;)

BlackMangoTree
Oct 2, 2010, 12:38 PM
For the new Apple TV a good setting is:

ref=5:me=umh:b-adapt=2:weightp=0:direct=auto:no-dct-decimate=1:merange=32:bframes=5:subq=9:vbv-maxrate=12000:vbv-bufsize=12000

No filters and set the resolution to 1280 by 720 or lower depending on the movie. Set the Audio to your liking and the subtitles and set the RF to 22 for HD and 20 for SD.

The results are very good quality video and pretty small file sizes and the file will play on Apple TV 2, iPhone 4, iPod Touch and obviously your computer.

bukiwhitey
Oct 2, 2010, 01:04 PM
Sorry this i cannot believe, i have tried the same trailers on 3 different Apple Tv's and they clearly drop frames. The lion of judah is very bad.

And i don't think i am the only person having dropped frames, i think i'm the only person reporting the truth or there are many blind people lol.

Take the The lion of judah trailer convert it in Handbrake with the high profile peset set the RF to 16 and the resolution to 1280 x 720 and play that back and see how much smoother it is.

The Apple Tv will fully load the entire movie onto the Apple TV even if you switch it off and then play back the same movie it will but still all on the internal HDD.

I downloaded all 180mb or whatever it was. Dropped it in my iTunes and it played perfectly.

Mine is streaming because it starts playing almost immediately.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 2, 2010, 01:11 PM
The 1080p lion of Judah trailer does NOT play smoothly. i have verified this on three Apple Tv's connected to 3 different TV's all looked and played exactly the same, dropped frames all over the place. Just look 52 seconds into it the camera pan over the town dropped frames galore.

f1sh053
Oct 2, 2010, 08:11 PM
I thought this might interest you guys:

http://www.product-reviews.net/2010/10/02/ios-4-1-jailbreak-apple-tv-shattered-video-and-image-proof/

If it can be jailbroken and has iOS 4.1, and the iPad with iOS 4.x can play 1080p when jailbroken, then I would assume those same applications could be used to test your theory of a software rather than hardware limitation on the device.

jaykk
Oct 2, 2010, 08:18 PM
Original awkwardtv tv team is busy working on appliances as well. I am guessing nitoTV will be able to play some unsupported HD contents.

http://twitter.com/nitoTV

"ohai http://nitosoft.com/ATV2/ATV2.png great work @DHowett and bholland!"

ovrlrd
Oct 2, 2010, 10:14 PM
The 1080p lion of Judah trailer does NOT play smoothly. i have verified this on three Apple Tv's connected to 3 different TV's all looked and played exactly the same, dropped frames all over the place. Just look 52 seconds into it the camera pan over the town dropped frames galore.

Agreed. I tested it out, and there is definitely a lot of dropped frames. Anyone who doesn't see this really has no clue what a movie with dropped frames looks like. It's not that hard to see, if you play both the 1080p and 720p versions you will see how much better 720p is. There is no doubt that the Apple TV can playback 1080p, but it definitely can't play it back smoothly.

Jailbreaking and such probably won't help either unless they can somehow get more processing power out of it or something. I bet if you threw a low enough bitrate 1080p movie it *might* playback without drop frames, but at a major sacrifice in quality that just isn't worth it. There is a reason Apple listed 720p as a specs, because it's the best the Apple TV is capable of doing with no issues.

End of thread, no real debate needed here.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 3, 2010, 01:38 AM
Agreed. I tested it out, and there is definitely a lot of dropped frames. Anyone who doesn't see this really has no clue what a movie with dropped frames looks like. It's not that hard to see, if you play both the 1080p and 720p versions you will see how much better 720p is. There is no doubt that the Apple TV can playback 1080p, but it definitely can't play it back smoothly.

Finally someone who is watching the trailer with their eyes open.

The Apple Tv is just not up to the task, playing 1080p back smoothly.

InfoSecmgr
Oct 3, 2010, 02:11 AM
While I can appreciate a good, helpful thread, this is not an example of one. For one thing, we have people splitting hairs between "I said it could play" 1080 and not "I said it displays". Most people do not distinguish between the two and it is very misleading. Yes, I know the videophiles will argue this point until the cows come home, but it doesn't really get us anywhere. Also, I'm not sure it does much good to rant about how one format is better than another, or interjecting bogus facts somehow makes one argument more coherent than another. So, can we simply move along?

BlackMangoTree
Oct 3, 2010, 02:17 AM
Why make it confusing lol

It's simple the Apple Tv will play back 1080p just not without dropping frames.

I have been trying to encode some blu ray discs to 1080p to play back smoothly on the Apple Tv still no luck, i'll continue trying hopefully i can come up with something with high bitrate that plays smoothly.

VoR
Oct 3, 2010, 05:39 AM
Your file has bitrates around 50mb/s I guess? The files that are being discussed here are around 5 to 10...
Even if the AppleTV COULD handle that kind of content, your network (doesn't really matter if wired or wireless) certainly could not.

I believe mine is in the neighborhood of 5 mbps. So even at a rough calculation of 6 times my bitrate, his would be 35mbps which is far above the capabilities of his network & router unless he's running gigabit with something above cat5 (cat6 and fiber would handle it -- on paper anyway).

The maths isn't particularly hard :)
50mbps and 35mbps are both less than 100mbps... - So, even an old pc with old network cards running through an old router at 100mbit has plenty of bandwidth to play a straight-ripped bluray disc.

Upgrade your network to incredibly cheap soho cat5e cables and switches and you've got the potential for over 30 multiple streams of the biggest bluray images - your brand new source machine is going to choke long before your 5+ year old copper cabling when dealing with multiple clients.

Diveflo
Oct 3, 2010, 06:31 AM
The maths isn't particularly hard :)
50mbps and 35mbps are both less than 100mbps... - So, even an old pc with old network cards running through an old router at 100mbit has plenty of bandwidth to play a straight-ripped bluray disc.

Upgrade your network to incredibly cheap soho cat5e cables and switches and you've got the potential for over 30 multiple streams of the biggest bluray images - your brand new source machine is going to choke long before your 5+ year old copper cabling when dealing with multiple clients.

Well the ATV only has a 100mbits card inside, so you've got a limitation there.
Then in the real world a wired connection through a router will get you what? 70? 60? Overhead protocol etc.
And then there's your REAL problem: a 50mbits rip does not have 50mbits all the time...it got peaks, and these are were the fun starts. I don't want to watch a movie where every time a scene has a lot of fast movement my Apple TV starts to choke.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 3, 2010, 06:34 AM
Once the movie is fully cached onto the Apple TV the network speed would be irrelevant. The network speed would only concern the time it take to start a movie.

VoR
Oct 3, 2010, 06:46 AM
Well the ATV only has a 100mbits card inside, so you've got a limitation there.
Then in the real world a wired connection through a router will get you what? 70? 60? Overhead protocol etc.
And then there's your REAL problem: a 50mbits rip does not have 50mbits all the time...it got peaks, and these are were the fun starts. I don't want to watch a movie where every time a scene has a lot of fast movement my Apple TV starts to choke.

10MB/s with samba as a protocol is pretty easy to achieve out of the box - I think 60mb/s is a little bit too low of an estimate, but either way it's still a fair bit higher than the maximum bitrate being talked about - and yes, we're not taking into account the buffering that any streaming hardware will do.

My comment was more about refuting the network bandwidth nonsense that is floating about :)

The real issue people are trying to get answered is quite obviously about the maximum bitrate and encoding switches the atv hardware will handle. Obviously the device won't push 1080 to your tv, but people have accepted this and just want the machine to display their current content without encoding duplicate copies.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 3, 2010, 12:43 PM
I have tried everything to get 1080p to play back smoothly with bitrates that warrant going to 1080p and for the most part im having no luck. Video with resolutions of 1920 by 1080 no matter how i encode just drop too many frames.

This is disappointing.

fpnc
Oct 3, 2010, 01:05 PM
Well the ATV only has a 100mbits card inside, so you've got a limitation there.
Then in the real world a wired connection through a router will get you what? 70? 60? ...
On my old Apple TV connected to a PowerPC Mac mini I get 80 to 90Mbps over 100Mb Ethernet. I've measured this many times using both timed transfer tests and the network activity graph in Mac OS X's performance monitor (which typically shows a perfectly flat and consisten line with no dropouts). Wired Ethernet is pretty efficient, something that can't be said of 802.11 wireless.

apatel87
Oct 3, 2010, 04:28 PM
I understand that pushing a full 1080p movie might be difficult but has anyone tried movies in between 720p and 1080p. Most of my movies are in mkv containers in between, often around 1600 x 900. The bitrate for the audio and video combined is usually not more than 5 MBps. Would the new ATV be able to handle that. In my digital collection I only have a few full 1080p movies. Even those are compressed to around 11 gb and have a bitrate around 11 MBps. How would those fare? I have bookmarked this forum because if the new ATV can work with these then I will ditch my Mac Mini/PLex setup and move towards a much cheaper option. Thanks!

bijanm
Oct 4, 2010, 05:58 PM
For the new Apple TV a good setting is:

ref=5:me=umh:b-adapt=2:weightp=0:direct=auto:no-dct-decimate=1:merange=32:bframes=5:subq=9:vbv-maxrate=12000:vbv-bufsize=12000

No filters and set the resolution to 1280 by 720 or lower depending on the movie. Set the Audio to your liking and the subtitles and set the RF to 22 for HD and 20 for SD.

The results are very good quality video and pretty small file sizes and the file will play on Apple TV 2, iPhone 4, iPod Touch and obviously your computer.


what are you selecting originally, High Profile? I am confused on how to remove the filters as I am currently seeing 2 when I select High Profile

BlackMangoTree
Oct 4, 2010, 08:01 PM
That was an earlier setting i was using, i now just use the High Profile Preset so disregard that advanced string and just select High Profile and just the resolution.

bijanm
Oct 4, 2010, 08:24 PM
That was an earlier setting i was using, i now just use the High Profile Preset so disregard that advanced string and just select High Profile and just the resolution.

ok what about the RF? default of 20 or are you still using 22 for high def

DotCom2
Oct 4, 2010, 08:33 PM
That was an earlier setting i was using, i now just use the High Profile Preset so disregard that advanced string and just select High Profile and just the resolution.

I'm a complete novice. Where exactly does one adjust the resolution in Handbrake?

BlackMangoTree
Oct 4, 2010, 09:11 PM
In the tool bar you will see picture setting, click on that.

Select the high profile setting
Set the Subtitles to your liking and the Audio.
The RF under the video TAB i usually put to 18 for that little extra quality.
I turn off all the filters for HD and most DVD's

apatel87
Oct 4, 2010, 10:32 PM
In the tool bar you will see picture setting, click on that.

Select the high profile setting
Set the Subtitles to your liking and the Audio.
The RF under the video TAB i usually put to 18 for that little extra quality.
I turn off all the filters for HD and most DVD's

Hi Blackmangotree, I understand that you have done a good amount of testing with the new ATV. What is the highest bitrate/resolution that you were able to watch without any dropped frames. I have a lot of movies that are around 1600 x 900. The bitrate is usually around 5 MBps. The file sizes are around 4 gb. How do you think these files will fare with ATV2? Thanks!

philipk
Oct 4, 2010, 10:42 PM
I ripped several 1080p trailers into 720p and 1080p mp4 files.

All of the 720p files play fine. Most of the 1080p files hiccuped during the playback.

I have decided to rip my blu-ray disks into 720p files as they work and look fine.

I still have the disks if I want to go 1080p in the future.

I only rip what I own.

techguy40
Oct 4, 2010, 11:04 PM
In the tool bar you will see picture setting, click on that.

Select the high profile setting
Set the Subtitles to your liking and the Audio.
The RF under the video TAB i usually put to 18 for that little extra quality.
I turn off all the filters for HD and most DVD's

The lower the RF the better the quality?

How do you turn off all filters?

BlackMangoTree
Oct 5, 2010, 02:10 AM
Yes lower the RF the better quality.

I choose 18 because any lower 17 and down i don't see much improvement and the file just balloons out.

To turn off all the filters select Picture Settings from the toolbar and under filters set them to off.

hipnetic
Oct 5, 2010, 08:44 AM
Just registered so that I could reply to this thread. I did some Googling on stuttering and found this thread. I've reported in the Handbrake forums and in the following Apple support forum thread that I'm having problems even with 720p content:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2599423

Note: There are several of us reporting the problem in that thread.

To summarize, the problem is not related to the network. The movie has been fully loaded to the Apple TV's buffer. For those who do not own a new Apple TV, when the status bar is all white, the movie is fully loaded to the buffer. When it is only partially loaded to the buffer, the white portion of the status bar is how much has been loaded to the buffer, and the gray portion behind it, has not.

The interesting thing is that it appears that the stutter/judder/dropped frames are actually *more* frequent when the movie is *fully* loaded to the buffer. That seems counterintuitive, but there you go. One person experiencing this problem theorized that perhaps the Apple TV is getting ambitious once it's loaded the movie to the buffer and is doing some sort of background task.

In any case, the movie that I'm using to test with is Monsters vs Aliens. The opening scene (right after the film stock melts away) shows some part of the universe, with the camera panning through the asteroid rings around a planet, then centering the camera on another planet, which then explodes. That panning sequence is good for noticing stutter/judder. I have a few different flavors of this movie converted via Handbrake. All play perfectly smoothly on my Acer Revo nettop running Windows 7 and XBMC. These 720p files also appear to play perfectly smoothly on my iPhone 4 (but the screen is so small that it's possible that there's a glitch that I'm just not seeing). One person indicated that they did not see the problem on their iPad, which is important because one theory/concern of mine is that the Apple TV's 256 MB of RAM could be insufficient (the iPhone 4 has 512MB). But as I don't have access to an iPad I can't confirm this first-hand.

My hope is to keep that thread towards the top of the Apple support forums and that they'll issue a firmware fix (assuming they *can* fix it).

BlackMangoTree
Oct 5, 2010, 10:36 AM
I am experiencing the same issue.

Video i have encoded for the original Apple TV using Handbrake wen played back on the new Apple TV once the file is fully buffered onto the Apple TV it will stutter all over the place.

New encodes i have done using the latest nightly build of Handbrake using the High Profile preset playback perfect with no stuttering.

I am not 100% sure but i suspect this could be an issue with our TV's something to do with the fps and hz.

This is highly frustrating issue, i can't believe it was released with such a major flaw.

hipnetic
Oct 5, 2010, 01:34 PM
New encodes i have done using the latest nightly build of Handbrake using the High Profile preset playback perfect with no stuttering.That's interesting. Most of my encodes of this test video were done with a nightly build using the High Profile setting, but it was a build I downloaded about two weeks ago. Can you share with me the specifics of which build you're using (and for which platform - I'm using the Windows GUI), and which settings, if any, that you changed after selecting the High Profile preset?

I'll be happy to do another encode using the same settings as you to see if my problems go away.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 5, 2010, 01:52 PM
I started a thread for this specific issue in hope we can work something out

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1025834

LunaticRed
Oct 5, 2010, 06:33 PM
Some observations of mine, so far.

First, my setup. I've got the Apple TV connected to an Airport Extreme via Wi-Fi, a Mac Mini and a Mac Pro 8 core connected to a Gigabit switch, and a Syswan SW24 Dual WAN router.

I tested the Lion of Judah, and a Harry Potter trailer to see how they played. They both appear to play fine, no dropped frames/stuttering (I've been working in the television industry for over 20 years, so I know what to look for).

Looking at the Mini's processor load, it appears that the host computer is doing the conversion from 1080P to 720P. So, if you have a high load on your host while the video is being converted/streamed it may lead to dropped frames/stuttering, and once loaded into the Apple TVs buffer, it would repeat that same stuttering each time you play it.

Now, I still need to do a lot more testing, so I wouldn't consider my findings definitive by any means. But, if iTunes is having to convert a file to stream to the Apple TV, even if it's already a 720P file, and the host cpu is under heavy load, that may explain why some people are seeing the problem and others aren't.

Just my 2Ę

BlackMangoTree
Oct 5, 2010, 07:47 PM
Some observations of mine, so far.I tested the Lion of Judah, and a Harry Potter trailer to see how they played. They both appear to play fine, no dropped frames/stuttering (I've been working in the television industry for over 20 years, so I know what to look for).

Lion of Judah trailer has hell of a lot of dropped frames. I have played it on 3 different Apple TV's on 3 different TV's. There is no way in the world it plays smoothly. Just play the 720p version and see the difference.

bijanm
Oct 5, 2010, 11:14 PM
hey blackmangotree, quick question for you.

i took an mkv (ripped straight from blu-ray) that was 1920x1080 and am using the high profile settings with no filters as u suggested in handbrake to try to get it down to 720p so that i can play it not only on apple tv2 but also ipad, iphone 4, etc...

however, when i try to scale down the resolution but keep the aspect ratio the same, the resulting file is 1744x720 not the standard 1280x720.


is this file going to play on my other i devices? if not, what needs to be done so that i can keep the scaling of the original blu-ray rip the same and have a file that will play not only on my apple tv2 but also on my other devices.


thanks in advance

BlackMangoTree
Oct 5, 2010, 11:19 PM
You need to set anamorphic to none then it will scale down to 1280.

To know if it will play just rip 30 seconds worth of a moive and try it.

bijanm
Oct 5, 2010, 11:27 PM
ok thanks.

also, what shuld the resulting file size given that my source is a MKV blu-ray rips (25-30 GB's) converted down to 720P using an RF of 18 and the High Profile Setting?

For my first rip I got a file that was 5.7 GB, which seems very high.

What size are you getting? Is there anyway to get a file that is only 3-4 GB with comparable quality? Are some of my settings wrong here?

bijanm
Oct 6, 2010, 12:05 AM
You need to set anamorphic to none then it will scale down to 1280.

To know if it will play just rip 30 seconds worth of a moive and try it.

i set anamorphic to none however this didnt change anything

when i go into "picture settings" and bump height down to 720, width is still 1744.... the only way i can get the width down to 1280 is if the height is 528... is this correct? is 1280x528 still 720P?

BlackMangoTree
Oct 6, 2010, 12:53 AM
Anamorphic is a technique they use to get extra picture quality. The Apple tv should play your 1744 by 720 picture fine.

bijanm
Oct 6, 2010, 01:08 AM
Anamorphic is a technique they use to get extra picture quality. The Apple tv should play your 1744 by 720 picture fine.

Ok thanks last 2 questions for now

1. What rf do you suggest for blu-ray rips, and what is the avg filesize for your blu-ray ripped 720P movies

2. Do you change the auto crop setting? By default mine is on

BlackMangoTree
Oct 6, 2010, 01:21 AM
NO i never crop the video.

peterjcat
Oct 6, 2010, 02:16 AM
when i go into "picture settings" and bump height down to 720, width is still 1744.... the only way i can get the width down to 1280 is if the height is 528... is this correct? is 1280x528 still 720P?

For almost all movies you should actually be adjusting the width, not the height -- since that is the longest edge, that will determine what can be displayed. 1280 x 528 is still 720p but taking into account (and removing) the horizontal black bars at the top and bottom of the screen.

Anamorphic is NOT used on Blu-rays. Coding it at 1744 x 720 is weird; it may play on the Apple TV but the Apple TV will scale it to 1280 x 528 itself and the picture will look exactly the same for a much larger file size.

peterjcat
Oct 6, 2010, 02:19 AM
NO i never crop the video.

There's no reason to turn Autocrop off. All that does is remove the top and bottom (or left and right) black bars -- being black these don't take a lot of space to encode and decode, but they do take some space and your files will be smaller (but look the same) if you crop them out.

Because Blu-ray has no anamorphic flag, unlike DVD (see above) the black bars you see are really there on the disc, which is an inefficiency that Blu-ray can afford since it's got so much room, but we don't need to put up with it!

peterjcat
Oct 6, 2010, 02:24 AM
also, what shuld the resulting file size given that my source is a MKV blu-ray rips (25-30 GB's) converted down to 720P using an RF of 18 and the High Profile Setting?

For my first rip I got a file that was 5.7 GB, which seems very high.

What size are you getting? Is there anyway to get a file that is only 3-4 GB with comparable quality? Are some of my settings wrong here?

There's no real concept of a standard file size when you're using the Constant Quality (RF) setting. The file will simply be as big as it needs to be, to maintain that quality in every part of the film, and so one movie may be four or five times bigger than another if it's a complex movie to encode (eg if it has a lot of film grain). It'll all average out across your movies; but if you feel your average filesizes or a particular filesize is too big, just lower the constant quality a point or so and see how it goes.

For what it's worth, 5.7GB is definitely on the high side for my 720p encodes, though not outrageously so.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 6, 2010, 03:07 AM
There's no reason to turn Autocrop off. All that does is remove the top and bottom (or left and right) black bars -- being black these don't take a lot of space to encode and decode, but they do take some space and your files will be smaller (but look the same) if you crop them out.

Because Blu-ray has no anamorphic flag, unlike DVD (see above) the black bars you see are really there on the disc, which is an inefficiency that Blu-ray can afford since it's got so much room, but we don't need to put up with it!

Sorry, i answered that question incorrect. What i meant was i never do custom crop just leave it on default.

tommylotto
Oct 6, 2010, 07:38 AM
For almost all movies you should actually be adjusting the width, not the height -- since that is the longest edge, that will determine what can be displayed. 1280 x 528 is still 720p but taking into account (and removing) the horizontal black bars at the top and bottom of the screen.

Anamorphic is NOT used on Blu-rays. Coding it at 1744 x 720 is weird; it may play on the Apple TV but the Apple TV will scale it to 1280 x 528 itself and the picture will look exactly the same for a much larger file size.

But it can be used to enhance the quality of a handbrake encode of wide screen material. With custom anamorphic setting selected and keeping the aspect ratio, you can designate a full 1280x720 encode that has an effective resolution of 1744x720. The 1744 number is not real. It is really 1280, but you can imagine the pixels as being rectangles as opposed to squares, so that 1280 horizontal pixels are 1744 pixels wide. However, you do actually get 720 pixels of real vertical resolution. That is much better than 528 and vertical resolution has a bigger impact on perceived picture quality than horizontal. This gives you more picture information in your encode. These files can be played on your computer, on your old apple tv, on your new apple tv, on your iPhone 4, and your iPad in their proper aspect ratio and they look great.

NightStorm
Oct 6, 2010, 07:51 AM
But it can be used to enhance the quality of a handbrake encode of wide screen material. With custom anamorphic setting selected and keeping the aspect ratio, you can designate a full 1280x720 encode that has an effective resolution of 1744x720. The 1744 number is not real. It is really 1280, but you can imagine the pixels as being rectangles as opposed to squares, so that 1280 horizontal pixels are 1744 pixels wide. However, you do actually get 720 pixels of real vertical resolution. That is much better than 528 and vertical resolution has a bigger impact on perceived picture quality than horizontal. This gives you more picture information in your encode. These files can be played on your computer, on your old apple tv, on your new apple tv, on your iPhone 4, and your iPad in their proper aspect ratio and they look great.
It should be noted that custom anamorphic for HDDVD/Bluray encodes only helps when your content that is wider than 1.78:1. You can use Handbrake to calculate the PAR for you, but be sure to double check the picture output before encoding as I've had it generate some screwy numbers before. If you aren't careful, you can end up with some strange results that wastes hours of encode time.

newagemac
Oct 6, 2010, 07:57 AM
Lion of Judah trailer has hell of a lot of dropped frames. I have played it on 3 different Apple TV's on 3 different TV's. There is no way in the world it plays smoothly. Just play the 720p version and see the difference.

Did you read his whole post? He is saying when streaming 1080p to the new Apple TV, the actual computer the file is streaming from is doing the conversion to 720p. So if you have a less powerful machine or if you are doing processor intensive stuff while streaming 1080p, then you might get stutters.

Also, whatever was done while the conversion was going on is going to be saved into the cache so that also explains why your stutters still exists even once the movie is fully loaded onto the Apple TV.

I am well aware of this because it works the same way when using other streaming apps like Eyetv and Airvideo on my iPhone 4. Those apps use the host computer to do all the hard work and if your host computer is over taxed, you get stutters on the iPhone. If you record a streaming HD video from an HDHomerun device with Eyetv and it stutters while recording due to high processor load, the stutter will stay in the file even once it is no longer streaming and just saved to the hard drive.

With that being said, my 2010 Mac Mini has no problems at all unless I am trying to decode more than one HD video at a time. Like for instance if I am watching a 1080 resolution .mpg on the Mac with Eyetv while also trying to stream that video to the iPhone. Also, when I have my Chrome browser open I can get stutters if I have too many tabs with Flash in them. Flash absolutely sucks when it comes to processor usage. I have Flash disabled on Safari (with Click2Flash) so it doesn't cause any video streaming stutters. I am sure with a more powerful computer like an iMac you could do a lot more because of the stronger processor. You can actually see the conversion programs taking up large CPU cycles with Activity Monitor on your Mac.

How about posting your processor usage when you're playing the 1080p trailers on the ATV and the specs of your host computer?

bijanm
Oct 6, 2010, 08:12 AM
For almost all movies you should actually be adjusting the width, not the height -- since that is the longest edge, that will determine what can be displayed. 1280 x 528 is still 720p but taking into account (and removing) the horizontal black bars at the top and bottom of the screen.

Anamorphic is NOT used on Blu-rays. Coding it at 1744 x 720 is weird; it may play on the Apple TV but the Apple TV will scale it to 1280 x 528 itself and the picture will look exactly the same for a much larger file size.

so if im taking a source that is originally 1920 x 1080 and scaling it down to 1280 x 528 (with anamorphic off) is this correct? im just confused how everyone else is getting 1280x720. the only way i can get these dimensions is by doing what tommylotto suggested and turning anamorphic to custom (still not sure if i should be doing this or not, all of my original blu-ray mkv's are 16:9 which is exactly a 1.78:1 ratio)

peterjcat
Oct 6, 2010, 08:15 AM
But it can be used to enhance the quality of a handbrake encode of wide screen material. With custom anamorphic setting selected and keeping the aspect ratio, you can designate a full 1280x720 encode that has an effective resolution of 1744x720. The 1744 number is not real. It is really 1280, but you can imagine the pixels as being rectangles as opposed to squares, so that 1280 horizontal pixels are 1744 pixels wide. However, you do actually get 720 pixels of real vertical resolution. That is much better than 528 and vertical resolution has a bigger impact on perceived picture quality than horizontal. This gives you more picture information in your encode. These files can be played on your computer, on your old apple tv, on your new apple tv, on your iPhone 4, and your iPad in their proper aspect ratio and they look great.

Yes this is a good point; I would only say that of course you'll only benefit from this if you also want to output the same file at wider than 1280 pixels; if it's just for the iOS devices then you won't see the extra information. A good solution for truly universal encodes though and good to know about.

tommylotto
Oct 6, 2010, 10:47 AM
Actually, the old AppleTV is limited to 720p sources, but outputs 1080p and should take advantage of all that extra resolution.

NightStorm
Oct 6, 2010, 10:56 AM
Actually, the old AppleTV is limited to 720p sources, but outputs 1080p and should take advantage of all that extra resolution.
I'm hopeful Apple eventually adds a 1080p output mode to the new AppleTV as well; this is the main reason I'm continuing to encode using custom anamorphic even though I'm in the process of replacing all of my first-generation AppleTVs with new ones.

canyonblue737
Oct 6, 2010, 11:18 AM
BlackMangoTree... Do you turn off the filters under High Profile when encoding SD DVDs? Why or why not? When should I use filters? Thanks, I am going to encode my SD DVD library first before moving on to my BluRays. This is all for ATV2/iPad/iP4

xibis
Oct 6, 2010, 12:24 PM
For those trying to stream 1080p to their ATV2 are you doing it via a wired or wireless connection?

It is my experience that it is very difficult to wireless stream 1080p content to a non-appleTV device. I can stream 1080p fine via a wired connection. I'm wondering if this is a network issue rather than a Hardware issue.

Sykotic
Oct 6, 2010, 01:36 PM
For those trying to stream 1080p to their ATV2 are you doing it via a wired or wireless connection?

It is my experience that it is very difficult to wireless stream 1080p content to a non-appleTV device. I can stream 1080p fine via a wired connection. I'm wondering if this is a network issue rather than a Hardware issue.

Right now I'm doing it wireless but I have a dual-network router with N traffic completely separated out. I only have a couple of devices that use that stream with the ATV2 being the only constant.

I downloaded today Lion of Judah trailer and do see some stuttering but I've also played 1080p trailers for Harry Potter 7; True Grit; and other 1080p files with zero playback issue. I don't know that it just isn't an issue with that trailer itself. There's some movement in the HP7 trailer and it plays flawlessly.

Ultimately I'll hook it up wired connection but don't see why wireless would be a problem assuming traffic levels and router quality.

thecypher
Oct 7, 2010, 09:46 AM
On a brand new Mac Mini? Are you kidding me??? This is starting to sound quite senseless. Just to make the ATV2 usable we have to jump through these hoops? Easier to stick to the Windows Media Center based HTPC. Takes less than a half hour to rip a blu-ray image to disk and you are done. Full 1080p playback with menus, subtitles, HD Audio, everything. ATV2 is going back to the store I think.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 7, 2010, 10:19 AM
14 hours ? lol

I have a 2009 MacMini takes about 4 hours when i go from 1080 to 720

On my iMac i7 an hour.

Blu ray image, you need mega TB's to store all your movies with them file sizes.

newagemac
Oct 7, 2010, 10:20 AM
Yeah, but you're talking about huge files around 30GB or more in size. I don't know about you but I don't plan on storing huge MKV rips when Netflix and iTunes allow me to access the movie again at any time from their own storage facilities. It's just not worth it to me. Western Digital makes nice hard drives but I don't like them that much. :)

Converting to m4v to get sizes down to something more manageable with near Blu Ray quality makes more sense. It shouldn't take anywhere near 14 hours though on a new Mac Mini. You probably went crazy with your settings. And Handbrake allows you to queue up files to be encoded so you can just let it do its work when you're away from home or sleep. Or use a smartphone app like logmein ignition to access your Mini whenever you're not using it to resume the encoding. Put it to work and get your money's worth out of that little processor! :D

thecypher
Oct 7, 2010, 10:42 AM
ETA shows 14 hours but I am hoping that is incorrect and the actual will be more inline with what you say about 4 hours. It is still cranking away. I did not mess around much with settings. Basically what I read in this forum. I picked the "High Profile" preset and in Picture Settings I set Anamorphic to custom, Width 1744 Height 720 and checked Keep Aspect Ratio. That's it. Is there anything I should do differently?

newagemac
Oct 7, 2010, 10:51 AM
What do you have set for RF?

thecypher
Oct 7, 2010, 10:56 AM
What do you have set for RF?

Didn't mess with it. Left it at the preset default of 20.

pedz
Oct 7, 2010, 11:19 AM
I had posted on another thread too but this one seems more active :)

I also use the custom anamorphic setting suggested in this thread and it seems to work great. When playing it on the computer you can clearly see the image is bigger at 100%. And it plays fine on all my apple devices (atv2, iphone4, ipad) and it looks great.

Just to jump into the quality setting conversation, I have been using 23 for my 720p blu ray conversions and the results look great, can't see a difference between it and 21. Haven't gone lower than that but can't imagine it getting any better.

One other think i wanted to mention, curious if others had to do this as I haven't seen it on other threads (though haven't read them all). When I first played my ripped movies on the new atv i wasn't getting dolby digital on my receiver. After a lot of fussing around I change the dolby setting in the audio menu on the atv to 'on' instead of 'auto'. And that worked. Not sure if anyone else ran into that.

Thanks,
Peter

SirNickity
Oct 7, 2010, 08:58 PM
You guys are asking way too much out of this poor box. Blu-ray spec is 40Mbps and something like 4 or 5 reference frames.

With bitrate, you can increase the limit as high as you want. If your source material is existing BD/HD-DVD/HDTV content, you won't go over whatever the original was. There's no point trying. If you render your own video (CG or raw HDMI from some HD camera), then it may be worth it for archival, but not for your viewing library.

With reference frames, you can re-encode with 20 RFs, but lemme tell you... you ask a lot of your video decoder. That means 20 * 1920x1080 frames need to be kept in the decoder's buffer for reference in case some frame later uses a portion of previously-encoded data. The ONLY advantage you get is marginally smaller files because you can re-use encoded macroblocks more often. Stick to 4 reference frames. If the motion estimation doesn't get what it needs in the last four frames, your chances of getting something reusable go way down anyway. You're stressing out the codec for no good reason.

And *NO*, it is not higher quality to use fewer RFs -- that shows a complete ignorance of what reference frames are and do. It is not higher quality to use more either. Your encode may be slightly more efficient in terms of space used (up until about 5) but visual quality is going to be about the same. (Obviously, if you have your encoder set to output a specific file size, and change bitrate to suit, then that's a different matter. But don't do that unless you're putting it back onto optical media or a thumb drive.) EDIT: Nevermind -- I misunderstood. RF != "reference frames". Sorry -- there are files on the web that badly abuse ref. frames.

As to this new ATV, I'm disappointed. I don't see the point in buying one if your intentions are to hack or jailbreak it. The jury is out on pure hardware capability, due to it being a proprietary design. The original ATV has, for sure, 1080p output capability, and (if you're willing to give up WiFi) a PCIe slot you can reclaim for outboard decoding to make up for the neutered nVidia accelerated video decoder. Add to that a well-supported CPU, hard drive (which the ATV2 does. not. have. -- I'm looking at you Mr. Mango ;)), and tons of I/O (including full-size USB port)... If you don't plan on using the ATV2 as Apple intended, why bother? I don't get it. It's so much less flexible.

Can this thing even support HD Audio if... *IF*... some team manages to write a bootloader to put a custom OS on it? If not, you're going to be re-encoding at least the audio specifically for compatibility. AC3 is the only real option. DTS isn't supported in MP4/M4V. You need a receiver capable of HD Audio for 5.1+ PCM. Very very very few receivers support bitstreamed AAC, so it must be converted to 2-channel PCM. Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are both out for the same reasons. Sheesh. Just buy a WDTV or Popcorn Hour or Dune.

I guess it'll make (yet another) OK Netflix streamer though. Just like a Wii, or PS3, or iPhone, or computer...

BlackMangoTree
Oct 7, 2010, 09:09 PM
Did you read his whole post? He is saying when streaming 1080p to the new Apple TV, the actual computer the file is streaming from is doing the conversion to 720p. So if you have a less powerful machine or if you are doing processor intensive stuff while streaming 1080p, then you might get stutters.?

ITunes doesn't convert on the fly.

ovrlrd
Oct 7, 2010, 09:12 PM
As to this new ATV, I'm disappointed. I don't see the point in buying one if your intentions are to hack or jailbreak it. The jury is out on pure hardware capability, due to it being a proprietary design. The original ATV has, for sure, 1080p output capability, and (if you're willing to give up WiFi) a PCIe slot you can reclaim for outboard decoding to make up for the neutered nVidia accelerated video decoder. Add to that a well-supported CPU, hard drive (which the ATV2 does. not. have. -- I'm looking at you Mr. Mango ;)), and tons of I/O (including full-size USB port)... If you don't plan on using the ATV2 as Apple intended, why bother? I don't get it. It's so much less flexible.

Can this thing even support HD Audio if... *IF*... some team manages to write a bootloader to put a custom OS on it? If not, you're going to be re-encoding at least the audio specifically for compatibility. AC3 is the only real option. DTS isn't supported in MP4/M4V. You need a receiver capable of HD Audio for 5.1+ PCM. Very very very few receivers support bitstreamed AAC, so it must be converted to 2-channel PCM. Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are both out for the same reasons. Sheesh. Just buy a WDTV or Popcorn Hour or Dune.

I guess it'll make (yet another) OK Netflix streamer though. Just like a Wii, or PS3, or iPhone, or computer...

Well said, my intentions for my ATV2 are purely for the concept of AirPlay, and the future possibilities of running apps and such. I am not expecting it to do 1080p or anything better than AC3 audio. Thankfully I have a PS3 if I want to do that stuff, plus I can play Blu-ray.

AirPlay is going to be awesome though, and well worth the $99 price alone for me. If I was looking to buy a streamer for 1080p I would not buy the Apple TV (old or new), it is clearly not what it is intended for.