Jet Is an Open Secret in Terror War

[zimv20]

link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A27826-2004Dec26?language=printer)


The airplane is a Gulfstream V turbojet, the sort favored by CEOs and celebrities. But since 2001 it has been seen at military airports from Pakistan to Indonesia to Jordan, sometimes being boarded by hooded and handcuffed passengers.

The plane's owner of record, Premier Executive Transport Services Inc., lists directors and officers who appear to exist only on paper. And each one of those directors and officers has a recently issued Social Security number and an address consisting only of a post office box, according to an extensive search of state, federal and commercial records.

Bryan P. Dyess, Steven E. Kent, Timothy R. Sperling and Audrey M. Tailor are names without residential, work, telephone or corporate histories -- just the kind of "sterile identities," said current and former intelligence officials, that the CIA uses to conceal involvement in clandestine operations. In this case, the agency is flying captured terrorist suspects from one country to another for detention and interrogation.

The CIA calls this activity "rendition." Premier Executive's Gulfstream helps make it possible. According to civilian aircraft landing permits, the jet has permission to use U.S. military airfields worldwide.

Since Sept. 11, 2001, secret renditions have become a principal weapon in the CIA's arsenal against suspected al Qaeda terrorists, according to congressional testimony by CIA officials. But as the practice has grown, the agency has had significantly more difficulty keeping it secret.

According to airport officials, public documents and hobbyist plane spotters, the Gulfstream V, with tail number N379P, has been used to whisk detainees into or out of Jakarta, Indonesia; Pakistan; Egypt; and Sweden, usually at night, and has landed at well-known U.S. government refueling stops.

As the outlines of the rendition system have been revealed, criticism of the practice has grown. Human rights groups are working on legal challenges to renditions, said Morton Sklar, executive director of the World Organization for Human Rights USA, because one of their purposes is to transfer captives to countries that use harsh interrogation methods outlawed in the United States. That, he said, is prohibited by the U.N. Convention on Torture.

(more)

[Thomas Veil]

Given the majority of those destinations, I'd surmise the U.S. is using the planes to transport al-Qaeda suspects to countries which are -- oh, how shall I put it? -- "more forceful" in how they interrogate suspects.

[Desertrat]

For all that I'm not all that concerned over the civil irghts of a known/proven terrorist, those who are merely suspects don't deserve maltreatment. And, for this latter group, even though they may well be hostile to us, I'm not convinced that whatever they might know is all that useful or relevant.

There has long been a mindset among the prosecutorial class that accusation = guilt. This seems to have been spreading during recent decades, and since 9/11 there has been rather a quantum jump. Super-patriots are just as scary as the "talk it all out while people die" crowd, if not moreso. More room for mistaken accusations with the latter group.

'Rat

[Dont Hurt Me]

They been doing crap like this for years, its not new. Look at unmarkeds jets going into area 51 for 50 years and our own so called freedom and liberty loving govt wont even admit it exist. Our Govt is above the Law when it wants to be. look at every administration the past century.

[solvs]

For all that I'm not all that concerned over the civil irghts of a known/proven terrorist
Though most of your post was good, reminding me of the McCarthy-style questionings I think we all abhor, this part did bug me. Nobody likes a terrorist, but we're supposed to be the good guys. Innocent until proven guilty, and all that.

Yeah, terrorists are bad, obviously... but it's hard to blur the line. You can't say well, we think that guy's a terrorist, and he did bad things. So we can torture him. I want us to get info out of these guys too, but where do you draw the line? Do the ends justify the means? We may save lives, but at what cost?

And other cliches that would suit this arguement.

[mactastic]

I wonder how people who advocate the use of torture against proven terrorists would feel about Americans who were caught and 'proven to be terrorists' by another government who then used that as a justification to torture American GIs.

As we all know, the definition of terrorist is fluid from place to place.

[Dont Hurt Me]

If we use torture we are no better but on the otherhand there is nothing to me that shows that these murdering islamic cowards deserve any type of geneva convention protection since they are organized criminals from other countries not in uniform.

[skunk]

Geneva Convention aside, is this the way to treat any person in a supposedly enlightened society? These people are by definition unconvicted, untried, unrepresented. If you believe your system should be leading the drive for universally accepted standards of decency and human rights, then it stands to reason you should demonstrate your bonafides by following your own rules according to the spirit as well as the letter of the law. Twisting the truth and perverting the ideals of the code you claim to be upholding is a cynical, arrogant and downright shameful betrayal of the very codes and conventions which your country helped to formulate.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Just remember that the convention was written up with country vs country in mind not some loose fanatical fringe bent on killing innocent people whereever they can strike. They have to be catagorized and dont deserve the protections the convention gives to honorable soldiers. these are not honorable solders but simply murdering thugs representing only a lunatic fringe in the crazy Islamic world. Untill the U.S can control the borders in Iraq this will continue. Curfew off the freaking country is the first thing our president should have done. They didnt have a clue to what they were doing so here we are. We shouldnt use torture just as we shouldnt give these guys any rights. Maybe we should go after their country of origin???

[mactastic]

Just remember that the convention was written up with country vs country in mind not some loose fanatical fringe bent on killing innocent people whereever they can strike. They have to be catagorized and dont deserve the protections the convention gives to honorable soldiers. these are not honorable solders but simply murdering thugs representing only a lunatic fringeWe typically call them criminals in this country and yet a raping, murdering serial killer is more deserving of humane treatment than someone fighting to throw out an occupying force in your eyes? in the crazy Islamic world. This kind of racism doesn't help any. The Islamic world is not crazy, but rhetoric like this is part of what allows people to abuse others whom they view as inferior somehow. Untill the U.S can control the borders in Iraq this will continue. Curfew off the freaking country is the first thing our president should have done. You don't really think cordoning off the country would actually help do you? These aren't foreign terrorists, except for a handful. They are largely Iraqis who were there before the war started.

Can you honestly tell me you wouldn't try to resist an occupying army? They didnt have a clue to what they were doing so here we are. Well here I agree with you. Military decisions have obviously been made be polititians instead of military people. We shouldnt use torture just as we shouldnt give these guys any rights. Well if we don't use torture we're giving them the right not to be tortured. If we take away all their rights, then we can torture them. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Maybe we should go after their country of origin??? You mean Saudi Arabia? Not likely.

[skunk]

these murdering islamic cowards
Where Russian troops massacre Chechens, would you call them "murdering orthodox cowards"? When a GI shoots dead an unarmed, wounded resistance fighter, would you call him a "murdering Christian coward"?

[Dont Hurt Me]

Most of those original were Saudi's were they not? The Saudi Govt allows the brainwashing of its people by fanatical religous zealots who teach children to hate and Kill the Jews and Christians do they not?
Perhaps a very bare set of rules for treatment of these prisoners but nothing close to Geneva convention. Also i would like to know what these terroists countrys of origin are doing to identify or stop these killers? i would bet near nothing so maybe we should hold them to some account Mactastic??? cut off all aid and freebies. Most the world has its hand out to the U.S. but at U.N headquarters we are considered the enemy. These countries have a lot of problems but the biggest one is the brainwashing thats been done to the young under fanatical Islam. Perhaps they should learn to bend a little but fantical Islam doesnt teach turn the cheek or love your neighbor like yourself does it? It teaches kill the infidel,Jihad,and yada yada yada so here we are in the backyard of all these crazies who have been killing and attacking each other for centuries and they live in the same country.
Islam isnt a live and let live religeon, its a live and let die one. Just look at the donations pooring into the region to help these islamic countrys then look at the aid from other Islamic countries. Its pathetic. Look at Saudi's and there aid, its a joke. They dont even care about there own.

[skunk]

Just remember that the convention was written up with country vs country in mind not some loose fanatical fringe bent on killing innocent people whereever they can strike.
This is country vs country: it's the little ol' USA vs the evil, murdering Iraqis. Would you say France in WW2 was embodied in the Resistance and the Free French, or in the Vichy puppet government?

They have to be catagorized
Oh no they don't. Any categorization is a cop-out. These are people, their country is being occupied, and their compatriots, fathers, brothers, children are being killed because of the US and UK collusion in international gangsterism.

...and dont deserve the protections the convention gives to honorable soldiers. these are not honorable solders but simply murdering thugs representing only a lunatic fringe in the crazy Islamic world.
What is an "honorable soldier"? One who only kills in uniform? Is that the only difference? A bit flimsy, isn't it?

Untill the U.S can control the borders in Iraq this will continue.
Without 100,000 extra troops, you'll never control the borders. Besides as I and plenty of others have pointed out several times, these are mostly Iraqis.

Curfew off the freaking country is the first thing our president should have done. They didnt have a clue to what they were doing so here we are. We shouldnt use torture just as we shouldnt give these guys any rights. Maybe we should go after their country of origin???
For Christ's sake, you already are! That's the whole "freaking" problem.

[skunk]

Most of those original were Saudi's were they not?
Link, please. This is crap.

The Saudi Govt allows the brainwashing of its people by fanatical religous zealots who teach children to hate and Kill the Jews and Christians do they not?
The US government also allows the brainwashing of its people by fanatical religous zealots who teach children to hate and Kill the Muslims.

Perhaps a very bare set of rules for treatment of these prisoners but nothing close to Geneva convention. Also i would like to know what these terroists countrys of origin are doing to identify or stop these killers? i would bet near nothing so maybe we should hold them to some account
Why would they? You've given them a perfect excuse to turn a blind eye to the few who get through to help stick one in the eye to an overbearing superpower.

Mactastic??? cut off all aid and freebies. Most the world has its hand out to the U.S. but at U.N headquarters we are considered the enemy.
The US is already responsible for 76% of the outstanding debt of the UN General Fund. How much more can you cut off? If you mean "stop selling them arms and teaching their police and military how to oppress their own people futher", that might not be a bad idea.

These countries have a lot of problems but the biggest one is the brainwashing thats been done to the young under fanatical Islam. Perhaps they should learn to bend a little but fantical Islam doesnt teach turn the cheek or love your neighbor like yourself does it? It teaches kill the infidel,Jihad,and yada yada yada so here we are in the backyard of all these crazies who have been killing and attacking each other for centuries and they live in the same country.
It depends which bit you look at: there are some very cruel and bloodthirsty passages in the Bible, but you don't characterize the whole Judaeo-Christian tradition as cruel and bloodthirsty, do you? Look at what has been done, both to Muslims and to "fellow Christians", in the name of Christianity.

Islam isnt a live and let live religeon, its a live and let die one. Just look at the donations pooring into the region to help these islamic countrys then look at the aid from other Islamic countries. Its pathetic. Look at Saudi's and there aid, its a joke. They dont even care about there own.
This is ridiculous, unfounded, uninformed and offensive. The whole point is that the regimes the US supports are precisely those which least represent their people, since their political agendas are concentrated on remaining in power through oppression and disenfranchisement.

[mactastic]

Also i would like to know what these terroists countrys of origin are doing to identify or stop these killers? i would bet near nothing so maybe we should hold them to some account Mactastic??? cut off all aid and freebies.

Sure but then you get into the debate over engagement vs. sanctions. Are we changing China's behavior by engaging with them? Have we changed Cuba's behavior by embargoing them? And do you really see this country holding the Saudi's feet to the fire when we get so much oil from them?

[Dont Hurt Me]

Sure but then you get into the debate over engagement vs. sanctions. Are we changing China's behavior by engaging with them? Have we changed Cuba's behavior by embargoing them? And do you really see this country holding the Saudi's feet to the fire when we get so much oil from them?
Your right i was just making a few points to stir things up ;) I think the root of the problem is fanatical Islam. Hate is being taught. Now what do we do about it.

[Thanatoast]

Your right i was just making a few points to stir things up ;) I think the root of the problem is fanatical Islam. Hate is being taught. Now what do we do about it.
I disagree, I agree with skunk on this - the root of the problem is short-sighted foreign meddling by our ideologically-driven administration. Of course, this isn't the first administration to meddle, it's just the stupidest.

[pseudobrit]

Your right i was just making a few points to stir things up ;) I think the root of the problem is fanatical Islam. Hate is being taught. Now what do we do about it.

I think an opposing and equally dangerous problem is fanatical nationalism.

Which is being taught, with the same hateful aspects of fanatical Islam, in the USA.

[solvs]

I think an opposing and equally dangerous problem is fanatical nationalism.

Which is being taught, with the same hateful aspects of fanatical Islam, in the USA.
And yet they can't see the similarities. I hope we never get that bad, but somedays I wonder. It's a slippery slope.

Those who say it can never happen here, you're the reason it can.

(Has anyone mentioned Nazis yet?)

[takao]

And yet they can't see the similarities. I hope we never get that bad, but somedays I wonder. It's a slippery slope.

indeed it is...

personally i find it already confusing with the pledges "to the flag" in school you have in the US (at least i did see that in TV)..the only time i had to do something like that (during my service) i was crossing fingers because i wouldn't do such a thingto a flag, book or whatever

(Has anyone mentioned Nazis yet?)

nazis aren't needed to know that militarism,nationalism, and blind patriotism isn't really that nice after all

[solvs]

nazis aren't needed to know that militarism,nationalism, and blind patriotism isn't really that nice after all
Figured I'd invoke Godwin's Law. Somebody ought to.

I'll invoke the Microsoft Law as well. Who else thinks bundling Patriotism with Christianity is about as good of an idea as building IE into Windows? Loving your country = good. Having a belief system built on love and compassion = good. Forcing people to love your country no matter what, at all costs, and making them believe what you believe at the cost of their own beliefs, even if it perverts the original ideas of that belief system = eh... not so good.

But hey, if we over-abuse our powers, and poorly keep secret all the things that make them hate us, we can just criticize those who catch us being guilty, calling them unAmerican and against God. :rolleyes: Hate to Blame America First, but, well... only in America. And places like Afganistan. Funny how much we have in common.

I know, how dare I point that out just because it's true.