Please pray for those in south eastern asia.

[slipper]

Geeze, i just heard on the news 13,000 people were 'lost' after the earthquake induced tidal wave hit south eastern asia. I just met a bunch of flight attendant ladies from Thailand a couple hours before it happened, geeze this just blew my mind when i found out a couple hours later. I hope their families and everyone elses families are ok.

[Xtremehkr]

Exucse my candor, but at this point, I would be cursing the "All Mighty," if I were a religious person.

What is praying going to do?

Enabling those who are providing relief is what is needed right now.

[gwuMACaddict]

that is an amazingly crap post xtreme...

all the guy did was ask for prayer, he's not asking to debate religious issues/spirituality... get a grip... just seems like if you dont have anything nice to say, dont say it :mad:

[Xtremehkr]

My apologies if I offended you, I just think that it is an empty gesture at this point.

Why don't you send something here instead? (http://www.ifrc.org/index.asp)

[edesignuk]

Exucse my candor, but at this point, I would be cursing the "All Mighty," if I were a religious person.

What is praying going to do?

Enabling those who are providing relief is what is needed right now.
Agreed.

Best of luck to all those who are out there and helping in the various rescue efforts and such, but it's a bit late for "prayer" :rolleyes:

[slipper]

This is completely rediculous, do you mourn when a relative passes away? geeze and you people at least be a little sensative to the subject? if you dont care, or sdont have anything nice to say, just dont say it.

btw the death toll is now up to 24,000 and expected to rise. :(

[iGav]

Agreed.

Best of luck to all those who are out there and helping in the various rescue efforts and such

Ditto...

Nature can be so violent and cruel... :(

But I do understand the need for some to pray.

It kind of makes you realise how lucky we are in the UK, where we don't get affected by such events on this scale.

[bousozoku]

This is completely rediculous, do you mourn when a relative passes away? geeze and you people at least be a little sensative to the subject? if you dont care, or sdont have anything nice to say, just dont say it.

btw the death toll is now up to 24,000 and expected to rise. :(

Mourning is for the living. It doesn't help the dead at all. They're much better off, most likely.

If prayer helps you resolve situations, go for it. :)

[edesignuk]

This is completely rediculous, do you mourn when a relative passes away? geeze and you people at least be a little sensative to the subject? if you dont care, or sdont have anything nice to say, just dont say it.

btw the death toll is now up to 24,000 and expected to rise. :(
I'm not having a go at anyone who wants to pray, that's up to you. But there was nothing wrong with Xtremehkr's post, and after gwuMACaddict's response I felt the need to support Xtremehkr's view, as I shared that view.

...anyway...

[slipper]

wow, alright mods shut down this thread.

[winwintoo]

I've been praying for those poor souls both the lost and the living and also for those who have not yet been hit by the aftermath of this devastation.

They've been asking for our prayers.

Take care, Margaret

[applemacdude]

OMG you **** up this thread...if you dun wanna pray dun do it....

[Xtremehkr]

Nevermind the fact that the vast majority are not christians to begin with. Pray all you like but if you really want to help them out, do something that is going to have a tangible effect for the survivors who are going to be dealing with this for months to come.

Another page of links to disaster relief organizations. (http://www.theworld.org/relief.shtml)

[Brize]

Nevermind the fact that the vast majority are not christians to begin with. Pray all you like but if you really want to help them out, do something that is going to have a tangible effect for the survivors who are going to be dealing with this for months to come.

Absolutely. The Red Cross have launched an appeal for $6.8m in order to provide disaster relief. You can donate here (http://www.ifrc.org/helpnow/donate/donate_response.asp) if you feel so inclined, and help to make a small but significant difference.

[solvs]

I get that you aren't religious, but then why did you click the link? I support your position to not believe, but also support those who do and wish do so without persecution. Praying might not help anyone, but it isn't hurting either. It's a good way to deal with the grief of a tragedy, whether the people that died were your faith or not. So just let people pray if it makes them feel better.

(This coming from a man with a bit of a crisis of faith right now. Spiritual, I suppose. Not religious)

[winwintoo]

I don't know if my praying is helping or not, but I do know that your bitching about it isn't (helping that is)

What does it matter if they're Christian or not? And how do you know I am? I'm not by the way.

Take care, Margaret

[Brize]

solvs: I don't have a problem with people praying, however, I'd implore those same caring people to head over to the Red Cross site and spare a few dollars in addition to sparing a few minutes to pray.

[blackfox]

This thread reminds me of two people arguing how best to save a drowning man. Meanwhile, while they debate the merits of their approaches, the man is sinking further below the surface of the waves.

How nice that our lives are so trouble-free, that we can get hung up on windowdressing and formalities of approach.

We all agree it is a terrible event and extend our sympathies and hopefully our assistance. How people choose to present that should be a non-issue.

Come on, people...

[Xtremehkr]

I get that you aren't religious, but then why did you click the link? I support your position to not believe, but also support those who do and wish do so without persecution. Praying might not help anyone, but it isn't hurting either. It's a good way to deal with the grief of a tragedy, whether the people that died were your faith or not. So just let people pray if it makes them feel better.

(This coming from a man with a bit of a crisis of faith right now. Spiritual, I suppose. Not religious)

Praying is an intangible, like I said, pray all you like but if you want to do something tangible than make a donation.

"Bitching" about praying? no, just pointing out the fact that even though it makes you feel like you are doing something, there is absolutely nothing to support any claim that praying does anything for anyone other than the person who has prayed and somehow feels that they have helped. Oh you're praying? wonderful, pat yourself on the back and put it all out of your mind.

[bousozoku]

Nevermind the fact that the vast majority are not christians to begin with. Pray all you like but if you really want to help them out, do something that is going to have a tangible effect for the survivors who are going to be dealing with this for months to come.

Another page of links to disaster relief organizations. (http://www.theworld.org/relief.shtml)

What has Christianity to do with it? Buddhists pray, Muslims pray, Jews pray, even Christians pray. ;)

blackfox: Good point! :)

[Daveman Deluxe]

I know that my prayers affect the things that happen over in Indonesia. I know this because Christ said that when we ask rightly in his name, even mountains can be moved. When we ask for things that are right in God's sight, our prayers are answered. It's not uncommon, especially in the Old Testament, to see that God was moved by prayer and changed his mind because somebody was willing to plead with him to do something differently than his announced intention.

I have no money to send to those aid organizations. When I have a job and enough money to do so, I plan to send money. But I don't pray just so I can feel that I've done something. I pray because I know that God hears and answers my prayers. Why anybody would attack an honest request and reminder for folks to pray is beyond me.

[Brize]

I have no money to send to those aid organizations. When I have a job and enough money to do so, I plan to send money.

You can't even spare $10?

[edesignuk]

Maybe we should just get a mod in to delete all this? No matter what your beliefs, we can all agree that this bickering is going to get us all no where?

Truce?

edit: either that or just close this thread and move all real discussion over here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=102399).

[Littleodie914]

Maybe we should just get a mod in to delete all this? No matter what your beliefs, we can all agree that this bickering is going to get us all no where?

Truce?

edit: either that or just close this thread and move all real discussion over here (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=102399).Agreed. Like a few others, I'm not religious, and won't be praying. Doesn't mean I'm heartless or don't care, however. The living, dead, and the unfortunately soon to be dead are in my thoughts, and will be for a good long while. Flame all you want, my friends, doesn't change a thing. :(

[Daveman Deluxe]

You can't even spare $10?

I haven't got $10, but I'll rise to that challenge. The next time I would seriously spend $10 on an unnecessary retail item, I'll forego the purchase and send $10 to a relief organization instead.

[Xtremehkr]

What has Christianity to do with it? Buddhists pray, Muslims pray, Jews pray, even Christians pray. ;)

blackfox: Good point! :)

It was in reference to the "they are asking for our prayers" statement I thought that a little funny since they pray to different people.

I think what they are asking for is clean water and shelter.

If people weren't so sensitive about religion they would overlook anything else said and take the links for what they are, an effort to help. And in my opinion, a tangible method. Good luck with your prayers.

[bousozoku]

It was in reference to the "they are asking for our prayers" statement I thought that a little funny since they pray to different people.

I think what they are asking for is clean water and shelter.

If people weren't so sensitive about religion they would overlook anything else said and take the links for what they are, an effort to help. And in my opinion, a tangible method. Good luck with your prayers.

I don't pray anymore but I'm open to people who do. It's just somewhat sad that you can't say anything without being attacked. People here deserve better and deserve to do better.

[virividox]

i have a really goog high school friend who is spending his xmas vacation in phuket with his family. i havent heard from him since the tsunamis, so im really worried i do hope he is okayu

[Brize]

I haven't got $10, but I'll rise to that challenge. The next time I would seriously spend $10 on an unnecessary retail item, I'll forego the purchase and send $10 to a relief organization instead.

Top man. I did the same thing earlier, by donating the small amount of money I received as a Christmas gift.

[topicolo]

Yesterday, one of my friends emailed me from Thailand telling me she was going to Phuket on the next stage of her vacation. Today I saw Phuket on CNN with people being washed out to sea.

Very worrying. :(

[Duff-Man]

Duff-Man says....I went out today...looked around the shops at after xmas sales, came home with only a cd.....watched the news and saw all the destruction....went to redcross.ca and gave them the $75 I might have spent on unnecessary stuff for myself....it ain't much but it all helps....oh yeah!

[stubeeef]

Nevermind the fact that the vast majority are not christians to begin with. Pray all you like but if you really want to help them out, do something that is going to have a tangible effect for the survivors who are going to be dealing with this for months to come.

Another page of links to disaster relief organizations. (http://www.theworld.org/relief.shtml)

boy, x, I thought you had at least some brain. who said you have to be christian to pray? Muslims, jews, hindus, buddests, even satanists pray! And I will bet, on those daily occassions you get in to things knee deep, you probably do to.

sorry, didn't read'm all before reply, good point bous...

[gwuMACaddict]

wow- i leave for a little while and this thread goes to the birds... :rolleyes:

without further debating the effectiveness of prayer, my only point when i posted above was that if you dont agree with praying, fine- but it didnt seem like the proper place to shoot the poor guy down who was asking for prayers. let him have his prayer thread, you can go start a 'give to the red cross instead of pray' thread.

i'm heading to bed...

[stubeeef]

wow- i leave for a little while and this thread goes to the birds... :rolleyes:

without further debating the effectiveness of prayer, my only point when i posted above was that if you dont agree with praying, fine- but it didnt seem like the proper place to shoot the poor guy down who was asking for prayers. let him have his prayer thread, you can go start a 'give to the red cross instead of pray' thread.

i'm heading to bed...

Who needs a give to the red cross thread! I have it in every post! :)

[absolut_mac]

Mourning is for the living. It doesn't help the dead at all. They're much better off, most likely.

Actually, mourning helps the dead as well. And yes, they are in a better place.

When it comes to religion, life after death etc, remember that modern science cannot *see* a persons soul. Of course we know that its there while the person is alive, but there is zero proof anyone can produce to prove that it's there, other than the fact that person is breathing.

On a more fundamental level closer to the hearts of all the geeks on this board, modern science doesn't really *know* why turning a copper coil inside a magnetic field produces electricity. Yes, by observation and experiments we know that it does happen, but we don't really know why.

The bottom line is that modern science doesn't really understand much about life at all. We are only beginning to unravel the mysteries of DNA, let alone the secrets sure to follow.

[stubeeef]

Actually, mourning helps the dead as well. And yes, they are in a better place.

When it comes to religion, life after death etc, remember that modern science cannot *see* a persons soul. Of course we know that its there while the person is alive, but there is zero proof anyone can produce to prove that it's there, other than the fact that person is breathing.

On a more fundamental level closer to the hearts of all the geeks on this board, modern science doesn't really *know* why turning a copper coil inside a magnetic field produces electricity. Yes, by observation and experiments we know that it does happen, but we don't really know why.

The bottom line is that modern science doesn't really understand much about life at all. We are only beginning to unravel the mysteries of DNA, let alone the secrets sure to follow.

Well said!

[solvs]

Praying is an intangible, like I said, pray all you like but if you want to do something tangible than make a donation.
That was not meant as an attack, and as I noted in the other thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=102399), your link to a real way to help was appreciated. But for those who are unable to do much to help, there is nothing wrong with a little prayer. If nothing more than to try and make sense of it all. In times of crisis, some find comfort in their faith. Some of us aren't that lucky, but no sense in raining on their parade.

For some of us, prayers are all we can afford to send. For some, it really isn't enough (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=102473).

[Daveman Deluxe]

I think that what is offending those of us who are offering our prayers is the continued implication that praying isn't really doing anything to help. I have no problem with others believing that prayer does nothing, but the condescending attitude that belief (unbelief?) seems to be delivered with in this thread is very hurtful.

[Xtremehkr]

That was not meant as an attack, and as I noted in the other thread (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=102399), your link to a real way to help was appreciated. But for those who are unable to do much to help, there is nothing wrong with a little prayer. If nothing more than to try and make sense of it all. In times of crisis, some find comfort in their faith. Some of us aren't that lucky, but no sense in raining on their parade.

For some of us, prayers are all we can afford to send. For some, it really isn't enough (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=102473).

I didn't think you were. I took no offense and didn't mean to sound offended.

Stu, I think you've missed my point. Lack of brain noted though.

[Mechcozmo]

To save this thread from the Wastland [maybe]!

Personally, I don't see what praying can do. But I respect people who pray because they believe in something.

I don't know if I believe in G-d. Things like this makes me wonder. But if someone is committed enough to what they believe, then pray.

So, please, everyone, stop fighting. No matter what you believe in, I think we can agree that this was bad and we are lucky to be alive-- over 25 thousand people aren't.

[MacFan26]

This thread reminds me of two people arguing how best to save a drowning man. Meanwhile, while they debate the merits of their approaches, the man is sinking further below the surface of the waves.

:) lol, my thoughts exactly

you know guys, Xtremehkr said 'excuse my candor' before he said what he did, so what's was the big deal to begin with...much worse could have been said.

I have the people over there in my thoughts, even though (personally) I don't think it helps, if they don't have food and water and a roof my thoughts aren't going to make a difference.

[MacFan26]

Well said!
I agree :D That got me all excited about the mysteries of DNA :D

[Littleodie914]

So, please, everyone, stop fighting. No matter what you believe in, I think we can agree that this was bad and we are lucky to be alive-- over 25 thousand people aren't.Agreed. Pray, send supplies, geez fly over there and save them yourself if you feel so inclined. Whatever you think will help those people, instead of bickering about which one is "more right" than the other, just DO IT. Everything and anything can help at a time like this.

[iGav]

I don't know if I believe in G-d. Things like this makes me wonder.


That's an understandable position to be in. I find it difficult to understand why people would pray to the same god that presumably allowed this disaster to happen in the first place, if god didn't care enough to prevent the loss of atleast 38,000 people, what makes people think that god would be interested in helping out now? guilt maybe??

However if people feel that praying will make a difference to the situation then more power to them, as solvs said earlier in the thread, praying might not help anyone, but it isn't hurting either.

[Mechcozmo]

However if people feel that praying will make a difference to the situation then more power to them, as solvs said earlier in the thread, praying might not help anyone, but it isn't hurting either.

Pretty much how I feel about it. Over 45K dead confirmed now.

[railthinner]

Normally I get annoyed when someones thread gets sidetracked or hijacked, but the title of this says "please pray" so I don't think you're too far off the mark by questioning the notion of praying. Praying may do yourself some good and make you feel a little calmer which is fine and good -- seriously, but I sure hope it doesn't make you feel like you actually did something to help anyone out because no matter how much faith you have that's absurd and it's a total cop out. You might as well ask us to light a chicken on fire for the people in Asia. Get off your knees and act.

[Littleodie914]

Normally I get annoyed when someones thread gets sidetracked or hijacked, but the title of this says "please pray" so I don't think you're too far off the mark by questioning the notion of praying. Praying may do yourself some good and make you feel a little calmer which is fine and good -- seriously, but I sure hope it doesn't make you feel like you actually did something to help anyone out because no matter how much faith you have that's absurd and it's a total cop out. You might as well ask us to light a chicken on fire for the people in Asia. Get off your knees and act.Amen to that. (No pun intended)

[candan9019]

We need to give them what they ask for, if they want prayer then ok but they don't. They want clean water and food, that costs money. If you think prayer helps then pray but I have never heard of god hearing a prayer and going to wal-mart to buy some supplies for people in need. Just don't use prayer as an excuse not to do more.

They need to get what they ask for not what we think they need. Thats about as absurd as when they airlifted pop-tarts to people in Afganistan.

[winwintoo]

We need to give them what they ask for, if they want prayer then ok but they don't. They want clean water and food, that costs money. If you think prayer helps then pray but I have never heard of god hearing a prayer and going to wal-mart to buy some supplies for people in need. Just don't use prayer as an excuse not to do more.

They need to get what they ask for not what we think they need. Thats about as absurd as when they airlifted pop-tarts to people in Afganistan.

How do you know what I do with my time and money??

I can't believe the number of folks just waiting around to pounce so they can feel superior. I give up. You don't pray, you must be superior. I bow down to you.

[candan9019]

How do you know what I do with my time and money??

I can't believe the number of folks just waiting around to pounce so they can feel superior. I give up. You don't pray, you must be superior. I bow down to you.

Sorry what I meant is it should be about them. You can always do more than pray. Look at it from the other way. Yes I don't think praying does anything but I will try to help out and I will hope (my praying) that people can get through this. People who pray can do it the other way, pray and then try to help out if they can. A matter of personal importance.

No I don't think I'm superior and I didn't mean to attack those who pray I just think we should be listening to those who need help.

[winwintoo]

Apology accepted.

It's sad that in this thread at least it seems that an offer to pray has been misunderstood as an unwillingness to also fill sandbags. I've done my share of filling sandbags in the past and will again.

Canada is sending a bunch of money and some supplies have already been airlifted and more will follow. My tangible assistance will be in there with the rest.

Take care, Margaret

[wdlove]

I think that what is offending those of us who are offering our prayers is the continued implication that praying isn't really doing anything to help. I have no problem with others believing that prayer does nothing, but the condescending attitude that belief (unbelief?) seems to be delivered with in this thread is very hurtful.

Try to keep your chin up. Jesus himself said that many will suffer because of my name. The world does not know me. Those that know me will be known to the father. They criticized him and so it will happen to those that follow him. All you can do is to follow your beliefs. I am saying a prayer for the victims many times during the day.

We are just expected to follow him. This thread really should just be to help the victims of the disaster in any way that each of us feel appropriate. An attack on others belief or person just isn't appropriate. Just remember the times that your feelings have been hurt.

[stubeeef]

Be confident, MILLIONS of all faiths ARE praying for comfort to those who have suffered so much.

[solvs]

You might as well ask us to light a chicken on fire for the people in Asia.
Not sure if you were trying to be ironic, but you know some of the people there are sacrificing chickens in the hopes it will bring back missing loved ones. We all know that's probably not going to work, but who are we to judge. Like I said, it seems to be more of a coping mechanism.

Get off your knees and act.
No ones says you can't do both.

I still wonder why so many non-religious people felt the need to post here. If you don't want to pray, don't pray. If you want to pray, and you think it helps, or just want to feel better, who does it hurt? Especially if you send a few bucks too.

[Xtremehkr]

How do you know what I do with my time and money??

I can't believe the number of folks just waiting around to pounce so they can feel superior. I give up. You don't pray, you must be superior. I bow down to you.

At no point did I think this had anything to do with feeling superior to anyone. That accusation is pretty low imo, I just that praying is futile compared to what else can be done.

Stu, how does praying for someone help them when they are thirsty, starved and facing disease?

If someone could turn a couple of fish into many they probably would have done it by now but no one has done anything like for thousands of years.

[stubeeef]

Stu, how does praying for someone help them when they are thirsty, starved and facing disease?


In a previous thread I told the story of an old coworker I called to give money too. He will tell you the power of prayer. he had prayed for the money to help a family for a couple of days, mostly the day before I called. You may call it co-incedence, I think it was devine.

Let me guess, Mother Teresa should not have been doing any praying either. Few if any living will accomplish as much in helping their fellow man, and I am sure she prayed a lot!

Praying asks for God's intervention, to request relief or understanding, and God calls on man to help his fellow man.

But using your logic, show me where Prayer hurts the situation?

[candan9019]

It's sad that in this thread at least it seems that an offer to pray has been misunderstood as an unwillingness to also fill sandbags. I've done my share of filling sandbags in the past and will again.


I was not targeting you or anyone in perticular just saying some people would use it as an excuse. I don't want to make anyone mad. Although you must understand I have my own opinion and I don't like being considered a bad person or ignorant because my belief doesn't agree with everyones. My beliefs mean as much as yours. I just don't understand the importance put on praying, nothings wrong with it. I'll send money you can send money and pray.

I am sure people over there would look on us with disgust if they were listening to us quarrel over how to help them insted of helping (whatever that may be) so I think I'll just shut my mouth and help them my way.

[Xtremehkr]

In a previous thread I told the story of an old coworker I called to give money too. He will tell you the power of prayer. he had prayed for the money to help a family for a couple of days, mostly the day before I called. You may call it co-incedence, I think it was devine.

Let me guess, Mother Teresa should not have been doing any praying either. Few if any living will accomplish as much in helping their fellow man, and I am sure she prayed a lot!

Praying asks for God's intervention, to request relief or understanding, and God calls on man to help his fellow man.

But using your logic, show me where Prayer hurts the situation?

Can you provide any evidence that praying for something achieves anything?

Other than in certain medical examples where it has been shown that both prayer and optimism have positive results.

The need right now revolves around immediate medical care as in terms of injuries and communicable dieseases. And meeting peoples immediate need for fresh water, food and shelter.

Show me that prayers will meet these needs and I will throw in a few myself.

Prayer may not hurt, but what exactly does it do? you pray to a christian god for help and they pray to their gods. Who allowed this to happen? God or nature?

If it was a god, why and for what purpose. If god allowed this to happen obviously it wanted the deaths that follow.

If it was nature, the next most important steps involve secular activities.

this is the edit:

Religious organizations can still do more than offering prayers.

[gwuMACaddict]

Can you provide any evidence that praying for something achieves anything?


FOR CRYING OUT LOUD PEOPLE, THIS IS RIDICULOUS. THIS THREAD WASN'T SUPPOSED TO ARGUE THE MERITS OF RELIGIOUS PRAYER. all the poor kid who started the thread wanted to do was to implore the spiritual among us to offer their thoughts and prayers.

does it REALLY make all of you feel so much better to jump all over him and tell him he's wasting his time? its absurb! im about the calmest, most laid back person you're ever gonna meet, but the way this thread has gone just blows my mind!

all of you are saying that we should spend less time praying and more time sending aid. well, i'm praying AND sending aid- try that on for size. and maybe all of you should SPEND LESS TIME ARGUING ABOUT WHETHER PRAYER MAKES A DIFFERENCE AND SEND AID.

i cant believe i'm usisng this many capital letters, but this ust boggles my mind, that so many of you can be so insensetive and unwilling to let someone ask the forum for help like this. there wasnt ever any need to turn this in a prayer debate...

[Xtremehkr]

FOR CRYING OUT LOUD PEOPLE, THIS IS RIDICULOUS. THIS THREAD WASN'T SUPPOSED TO ARGUE THE MERITS OF RELIGIOUS PRAYER. all the poor kid who started the thread wanted to do was to implore the spiritual among us to offer their thoughts and prayers.

does it REALLY make all of you feel so much better to jump all over him and tell him he's wasting his time? its absurb! im about the calmest, most laid back person you're ever gonna meet, but the way this thread has gone just blows my mind!

all of you are saying that we should spend less time praying and more time sending aid. well, i'm praying AND sending aid- try that on for size. and maybe all of you should SPEND LESS TIME ARGUING ABOUT WHETHER PRAYER MAKES A DIFFERENCE AND SEND AID.

i cant believe i'm usisng this many capital letters, but this ust boggles my mind, that so many of you can be so insensetive and unwilling to let someone ask the forum for help like this. there wasnt ever any need to turn this in a prayer debate...

It may not have started that way, but it has gotten to that point. For being such a laid back person you have reacted in an extraordinary way to the suggestions that I have made. Accept my point or don't, it's your choice and no amount of debate will change that if you are unwilling to accept it.

[Xtremehkr]

I'll take the position that it was still one step away from being political. Not that you can seperate politics from religion these days. So in light of that, it was probably a good call.

[Mechcozmo]

I'll take the position that it was still one step away from being political. Not that you can seperate politics from religion these days. So in light of that, it was probably a good call.

Two things you aren't supposed to discus in polite conversation:
Religion
Politics

I can separate them. Maybe you can't see how to do that. Well, I'm angry because when this thread got moved I lost post counts. Meh.

[edesignuk]

...glad to see all is going well in this thread...

[Mechcozmo]

...glad to see all is going well in this thread...
<sarcasm>Perfectly well.</sarcasm> No macros? :( You could do it on deterioration or rot or something.

[edesignuk]

<sarcasm>Perfectly well.</sarcasm> No macros? :( You could do it on deterioration or rot or something.
I don't think this is really an occasion for taking the piss with funny images :(

[EJBasile]

If you want to pray then pray. If you want to mourn then mourn. People have ways of trying to help people religously. You shouldn't try to put down the people who are saying to pray. You don't have to if you don't wany to.

[Lyle]

all of you are saying that we should spend less time praying and more time sending aid. well, i'm praying AND sending aid- try that on for size.Well said; these aren't mutually exclusive options. Christians most of all should recognize that while Jesus certainly prayed when he was here on Earth, he was just as likely to (as railthinner put it) get up off his knees and act.

[winwintoo]

It's interesting about being the one out there "filling sandbags" - which I've done a lot of from time to time.

We were at a camp-out with about 30 5th grade students when a horrendous downpour started in the middle of the night. The campsite did have a small cabin on the property, but all the kids were staying in tents. Another mother and I slogged through the rain and carried all 30 of those charming youngsters (most of whom weighed more than I did) through the rain and hail and delivered them to the safety and warmth of their parents who were waiting in the comfort of the cabin.

By the time we got the last child to safety, there was about 3 inches of water on the floor near the doorway, and we were soaked to the skin, dead tired and stone cold. We looked around and asked where we were to sleep. By the door we were told.

Me, being pretty forthright, asked why we couldn't be offered the comfort of the bedroom or at least a chair by the fireplace after the ordeal we'd just experienced. There erupted the most horrendous outrage. Just who did I think I was. Those other parents had had their sleep interrupted and already had the beds and chairs staked out.

The next day, there was me and my assistant from the nightmare before making sandwiches for the little darlings and doing the dishes while the rest of the upper-crust mothers sat around sunning themselves and bitching about the humidity.

I very much doubt if they were in the cabin praying for us the night before. If they were, they might have turned a thought to thanking us and saving a dry blanket for us to use.

Have you been watching the earthquake maps?

There was a 5.6 in Japan earlier today. It's moving. You could be next. I'll be praying for you to. And if you're close enough, I'll come and hold your hand or fill some sandbags for you.

Margaret

[railthinner]

Anyone else get a smirk from the Google ads (edit:sp.) at the bottom of the page? :rolleyes:

[absolut_mac]

Me, being pretty forthright, asked why we couldn't be offered the comfort of the bedroom or at least a chair by the fireplace after the ordeal we'd just experienced. There erupted the most horrendous outrage. Just who did I think I was. Those other parents had had their sleep interrupted and already had the beds and chairs staked out.

Sorry about that :(

Sounds like they were a bunch of wealthy ingrates. But if it's any comfort to you, most *normal* people would have been very grateful for your efforts.

[pseudobrit]

There was a 5.6 in Japan earlier today. It's moving. You could be next.

The two events are unrelated. It's a totally different fault. The idea that "it's moving" is absurd.

The area of the original 9.0 has experienced dozens of aftershocks, though.

Tsunamis are not caused by earthquakes themselves but by a massive shift in the sea floor. Not every earthquake causes a tsunami.

I was in L.A. when the Parkfield quake hit this year and I didn't even feel it.

[Ugg]

The two events are unrelated. It's a totally different fault. The idea that "it's moving" is absurd.



No, it's not absurd. Although a better way to put it would be that it has triggered earthquakes elsewhere. This quake was big enough to cause the earth's axis to wobble, so I don't believe that it's absurd to think that it could have triggered other earthquakes. I've read, sorry no links, that in the Pacific ring of fire at least, that earthquakes in one area may trigger quakes in another.

[winwintoo]

Look at history - there's a major quake in Turkey, 2 weeks later a major quake in Mexico, A major quake in China, a month later a major quake in California

I might have the locales wrong, but without fail, if there's a major quake on one side of the earth, there's another major one on the other side of the earth soon after - it stands to reason, that big of a shift in the earth's crust must cause a shift elsewhere.

If your cats start disappearing and your dog runs away, throw your photo albums and your jewelry in your car and come on up and visit me, we never get earthquakes here.

Margaret

[pseudobrit]

No, it's not absurd. Although a better way to put it would be that it has triggered earthquakes elsewhere. This quake was big enough to cause the earth's axis to wobble, so I don't believe that it's absurd to think that it could have triggered other earthquakes. I've read, sorry no links, that in the Pacific ring of fire at least, that earthquakes in one area may trigger quakes in another.

It's possible, sure. But it's unlikely, unprovable and unpredictable.

Therefore, to unequivocally state that the earthquakes are moving is an absurd and gratuitous statement.

A 5 or 6 magnitude earthquake off the coast of Japan or Alaska is a weekly occurence, not a sign that portends doom.

[winwintoo]

I really hope you're right and I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong if I am - only time will tell.

Margaret

[amnesiac1984]

Exucse my candor, but at this point, I would be cursing the "All Mighty," if I were a religious person.

What is praying going to do?

Enabling those who are providing relief is what is needed right now.

Xtreme, whatever you think about religion, don't knock the power of prayer. There are serious scientific studies that suggest that prayer can have both a positive and negative effect on the world (depending on the prayer). The great thing about it is that it has nothing to with what religion you are, but only on what intentions you have in your mind. Thats the power of intention, and praying is just a way of intending things on a deeper level.

link to get you started (http://www.indiaoz.com.au/hinduism/articles/quantum_physics_modern.shtml)

rinky dink link (http://www.jewishealing.com/healing_really_works.html)

[amnesiac1984]

Praying is an intangible, like I said, pray all you like but if you want to do something tangible than make a donation.

"Bitching" about praying? no, just pointing out the fact that even though it makes you feel like you are doing something, there is absolutely nothing to support any claim that praying does anything for anyone other than the person who has prayed and somehow feels that they have helped. Oh you're praying? wonderful, pat yourself on the back and put it all out of your mind.

What you are saying about prayer is actually wrong. Doctors have done studies published in the the American heart journal proving that there is something it. Physicists are starting to understand the quantum processes involved with why prayer works. In short, basic spirituality and the idea of consciousness is starting to be slightly understood. Flat out denying that their is anything in it is just not good science.

The great thing about this, is that the prayer has an effect regardless of what religion you are, its all about having good intentions.

. http://www.suddenlysenior.com/prayerinmedicine.html

http://suewidemark.netfirms.com/prayerheals.htm http://www.hssrd.org/journal/spring2003/healing.htm

http://www.impactednurse.com/nutsandbolts/Prayer.html

Dr Larry Dossey is a longtime advocate of the potential of IP.(intercessory prayer) Unlike traditional western medicine that believes the mind is localized in the brain, Dr Dossey suggests that we need to undergo a paradigm shift to the possibility that the mind may not be localized to the brain, the body or even the present moment. He defines IP as "positive, distant, non-local manifestation of consciousness." He notes that how the prayer is performed is an intimate personal thing with “no correlation in studies between religious affiliation and the effects of prayer in the laboratory. The factors that seems to work are love, compassion, empathy and deep caring.”

This is just one of a host of scientists starting to change the way we look at the world. Look up the "global consciousness project" for a slightly different approach.

[Xtremehkr]

Xtreme, whatever you think about religion, don't knock the power of prayer. There are serious scientific studies that suggest that prayer can have both a positive and negative effect on the world (depending on the prayer). The great thing about it is that it has nothing to with what religion you are, but only on what intentions you have in your mind. Thats the power of intention, and praying is just a way of intending things on a deeper level.

link to get you started (http://www.indiaoz.com.au/hinduism/articles/quantum_physics_modern.shtml)

rinky dink link (http://www.jewishealing.com/healing_really_works.html)

Yout lost me at this point... serious scientific studies that suggestthat prayer can have both a positive and negative effect on the world (depending on the prayer).

There are similar studies that suggest positive thinking and optimism have similar effects to prayer and that there may be little difference. Though it has more to do with medicine and not Tsunami relief.

How is prayer going to get clean water, food and shelter to people in Asia? There is absolutely no comparison between praying for health and praying for relief aid to reach people in Asia. I hope that was an honest mistake on your part.

The great thing about it is that it has nothing to with what religion you are, but only on what intentions you have in your mind. Thats the power of intention, and praying is just a way of intending things on a deeper level.

Ah yes, that makes a lot of sense to me. Whatever makes you feel good about yourself but like i asked for earlier, just one example that prayer provides tangible relief in disaster situations.

[Xtremehkr]

What you are saying about prayer is actually wrong. Doctors have done studies published in the the American heart journal proving that there is something it. Physicists are starting to understand the quantum processes involved with why prayer works. In short, basic spirituality and the idea of consciousness is starting to be slightly understood. Flat out denying that their is anything in it is just not good science.

The great thing about this, is that the prayer has an effect regardless of what religion you are, its all about having good intentions.

. http://www.suddenlysenior.com/prayerinmedicine.html

http://suewidemark.netfirms.com/prayerheals.htm http://www.hssrd.org/journal/spring2003/healing.htm

http://www.impactednurse.com/nutsandbolts/Prayer.html



This is just one of a host of scientists starting to change the way we look at the world. Look up the "global consciousness project" for a slightly different approach.

Doctors have done studies published in the the American heart journal proving that there is something it.

No, not conclusively, it is just as likely optimism or positivity. "Something to it" is not proof of anything, especially since you can't discern whether it is the praying or the opimtimistic thinking.

Physicists are starting to understand the quantum processes involved with why prayer works.

Link? :rolleyes:

In short, basic spirituality and the idea of consciousness is starting to be slightly understood. Flat out denying that their is anything in it is just not good science.


There is no logic in faith. "Basic spirituality and the idea of consciousness" have been understood for quite some time.

Read and adress my posts or don't bother. I don't care if people have faith, but I don't think that prayer is an appropriate relief for peoples physical needs. Especially when people start acting like it is really accomplishing something.

[winwintoo]

X - I think you've missed the point that I and others have tried to make - just because we pray for the victims doesn't mean that we're unwilling to also do the tangible things that will help them.

Some of send money and pray.

Others just send money.

Some don't have any money so all they can do is pray - maybe we should be sending them money closer to home?

Some don't send money or pray and bitch about the ones who are praying.

I do what seems right for me. You do what seems right for you. If bitching about me praying is helping you - then go for it.

Take care, Margaret

[gwuMACaddict]

i'd like to say 'ditto' to margaret's previous post. exact point i've tried to make over and over again in this thread. i cant believe that it got this out of hand... ridiculous.

[Xtremehkr]

And that despite the initial indignity, that was my point. Don't just pray. If everyone is hoping that the recovery recieves the aid it needs we are all praying in our own way. I apologize for the indignity, but not if people are only hoping or praying. I would have said the same if someone were to suggest that everyone hope something is done, rather than do something about it, or call for those (the government for one) to do something about it.

Though calling for government action in such a blunt manner would have made it obviously political, which it is now anyway. In this forum at least. Still, given the wealth of the nation, there is still the very real possibility that public sector donations could far outstrip Government actions. Even though that is considered public as its funds are raised from the public, the public is easily capable of giving more as not all funds are accounted for. And this nation has more wealth than any other.

Even though this is obviously a political hot potato hopefully it is handled sanely and the political gain that could be had is minimalized. But given the current atmosphere, actions taken and rhetoric espoused it is already beyond that stage.

Still, I suggest that people do more than simply hope or pray. If you have done your best and hope and pray for more, than it is all good.

[solvs]

Well, nm, it's cool. We get what you meant. You re-iterated your point in a dignified manner. I think we can all *hug* now and let it go. (I mean that figuratively, of course)

If nothing else, tragedies like this can bring out the best in people, and bring (most of) us all together. It's a small consolation, but it's good to see how (some) people have banded together to help. I just wish it didn't take something as bad as this for that to happen.

[absolut_mac]

No, not conclusively, it is just as likely optimism or positivity. "Something to it" is not proof of anything, especially since you can't discern whether it is the praying or the opimtimistic thinking.

That's a silly thing to say IMHO. As I mentioned in my earlier post in this thread, there are very few things that modern science can prove absolutely conclusively.

For example, I can't cut open your head to *conclusivley* show the world your thought processes, or even your soul. We only know that they are there by a reasonable assumption, but it is not something where one can show 100% conclusive eveidence that it exists.

Hence if you tried to prove to somebody that you think, you can't say to them, "well, I think, therefore you must too - right?" That wouldn't be acceptable 100% conclusive proof.

Most scientific *proof* relies on careful observation and the fact that once the process or experiment is reasonably well understood, proof can be used to predict with reasonable accuracy and certainty what the outcome will be.

Keeping the above in mind, it's therefore not too hard to see why scientists and inventors don't accept the *known accepted truths*. They are always thinking outside of the box, literally.

[Xtremehkr]

there are very few things that modern science can prove absolutely conclusively.



Are you kidding me? The modern world is built on proven science. Everything you use is built on conclusions science reached. Even the keyboard you used to share that poorly thought out comment.

[absolut_mac]

Are you kidding me? The modern world is built on proven science. Everything you use is built on conclusions science reached. Even the keyboard you used to share that poorly thought out comment.

Okay - here's one.

The keyboard that I use uses electricity in order to work, right? Without it, it absolutely cannot function.

Now prove to me conclusively why when a copper coil is turned inside a magnetic field, an electric current is produced? There is no conclusive proof of why this should be. If you have it, please post a link!

True, we do know by observation that it happens. It's also true that we can even predict with a fair amount of accuracy how much electricity will be produced if we know how many coils there are and the strength of the magnetic filed etc. But we cannot predict with 100% certainty how much will be produced due to too many variables eg losses through heat etc and also because there is still so much about electricity on a molecular level that we don't know about or fully comprehend. In support of my last statement - any cell phone users worried about getting brain tumors from talking on them too much?

And when you get to light, DNA, even life itself, science becomes even more hazy. Heck we don't even understand the exact process of why penicillin kills some individuals, but saves other. And you think science is exact and has all the answers.

Maybe you personally have all the answers, but modern science is struggling along right now trying to find them.

Edited for additional info; By the way, the above info is the reason for building prototypes and testing them extensively - in order to reconcile the theory (known or otherwise) with practical reality.

[Xtremehkr]

Wait, electricity and code are a mystery still?

If it takes such extraordinary proof for something to become fact than you are going to have a hard time justifying God(s). There isn't just one God is there? prove that one first.

[solvs]

Oh, for the love of Buddha people, let it go. Think of what you are arguing over. How many are dead now? Does it really matter anymore, what you're still debating? Some of you believe in God, some of you don't, some aren't sure. LET. IT. GO. Please.

Thank you, and good night.

[absolut_mac]

Wait, electricity and code are a mystery still?

If it takes such extraordinary proof for something to become fact than you are going to have a hard time justifying God(s). There isn't just one God is there? prove that one first.

hahaha end of argument, answering a question that you cannot answer with another question :rolleyes:

[Xtremehkr]

hahaha end of argument, answering a question that you cannot answer with another question :rolleyes:

Not really, I am imposing the same requirements you are asking for. If you cannot support your argument then theoretically I cannot support mine. But science is based upon a method that requires proof. What proof are you using?

[Xtremehkr]

Though given scientific method and all of the science based technologies we are using to have this argument, I ask you to prove your assertions before questioning mine. Is that avoiding the question or is it asking for quid pro quo?

[Xtremehkr]

Oh, for the love of Buddha people, let it go. Think of what you are arguing over. How many are dead now? Does it really matter anymore, what you're still debating? Some of you believe in God, some of you don't, some aren't sure. LET. IT. GO. Please.

Thank you, and good night.

I am thinking of what we are arguing over and that is why I called for more than hope or prayer, thank you very much.

[skunk]

If I may, tentatively, stick my fork into this hot potato, I would venture that for those living in the richest countries in the world, who spend the average annual income of those in the affected areas on cigarettes, candy bars, alcohol, recreational drugs, gas, luxury food or entertainment, it is not sufficient to offer prayers, however effective they may be. While prayer and good thoughts may well help the victims in some way or another, they are often of more benefit as a salve to the pious conscience of the giver. Anyone in this hemisphere who claims to be too poor to give is lying. A mite will do.

I'll get my coat....

[amnesiac1984]

I think you're missing one important point about science. Scientifics proofs are not proofs, They are theories based in the disproven. You can 'prove' how something works based on an understanding of how the world works but that proof may be disproven at a later stage when knew evidence is found from research elsewhere.

We may know an awful lot about this universe, but there is an awful lot that we can only try to "prove" based on assumptions. AS we delve deeper into quantum physics these assumptions may well change, its happened in the past.

Very fact that science can't disprove the existence of some form of God/Force or whatever, may well be old **** but it's important, regardless of what your beliefs are.

[absolut_mac]

Not really, I am imposing the same requirements you are asking for. If you cannot support your argument then theoretically I cannot support mine. But science is based upon a method that requires proof. What proof are you using?

You made a blanket statement saying that the modern world is built on *proven science*. I gave you an example that the modern world uses electricity, even although it has yet to be proven and that certain things that we know about it haven't been fully understood.

Your retort was what's the mystery of electricity? So, according to you, if there are no mysteries about elecricity, then it really shouldn't be too hard for you to find the proof that I requested, right? Especially in light of the fact that magnetism is one of the basic fundamentals of elecricity.

So please don't answer my question with a question. I gave you an example, so I'm requesting the same from you.

PS Good luck finding that proof, because last I looked, modern science still didn't fully understand why turning a copper coil in a magnetic field produces elecricity.

[Xtremehkr]

You made a blanket statement saying that the modern world is built on *proven science*. I gave you an example that the modern world uses electricity, even although it has yet to be proven and that certain things that we know about it haven't been fully understood.

Your retort was what's the mystery of electricity? So, according to you, if there are no mysteries about elecricity, then it really shouldn't be too hard for you to find the proof that I requested, right? Especially in light of the fact that magnetism is one of the basic fundamentals of elecricity.

So please don't answer my question with a question. I gave you an example, so I'm requesting the same from you.

PS Good luck finding that proof, because last I looked, modern science still didn't fully understand why turning a copper coil in a magnetic field produces elecricity.

Than give me some examples of what you consider to be unproven science that we use. You aren't supporting your assertion. You are claiming that everything in the world is working on unproven science and that science has yielded no answers which is ridiculous.

What is unproven about Electricity? Television? the Internet? the cloths you are wearing, the food you eat, the car you drive, the seat you are sitting in etc etc etc.

All of these products are produced in ways and are using materials that were either developed or improved through science.

You are making a blanket statement about all of science that is a ridiculous assertion considering the fact that we live our modern lives are saturated in conclusions reached by science that are proven.

Proof

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):

Proof \Proof\, a.
1. Used in proving or testing; as, a proof load, or proof
charge.

-----------------

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):

Proof \Proof\, n. [OF. prove, proeve, F. preuve, fr. L. proba,
fr. probare to prove. See Prove.]
1. Any effort, process, or operation designed to establish or
discover a fact or truth; an act of testing; a test; a
trial.

2. That degree of evidence which convinces the mind of any
truth or fact, and produces belief; a test by facts or
arguments that induce, or tend to induce, certainty of the
judgment; conclusive evidence; demonstration.


Note: Properly speaking, proof is the effect or result of
evidence, evidence is the medium of proof. Cf.
Demonstration, 1.

3. The quality or state of having been proved or tried;
firmness or hardness that resists impression, or does not
yield to force; impenetrability of physical bodies.

6. (Math.) A process for testing the accuracy of an operation
performed. Cf. Prove, v. t., 5.


Syn: Testimony; evidence; reason; argument; trial;
demonstration. See Testimony.

-----------------

From WordNet (r) 2.0:

proof
adj : (used in combination or as a suffix) able to withstand;
"temptation-proof"; "childproof locks" [syn: proof(p)]
n 1: any factual evidence that helps to establish the truth of
something; "if you have any proof for what you say, now
is the time to produce it" [syn: cogent evidence]
2: a formal series of statements showing that if one thing is
true something else necessarily follows from it
6: the act of validating; finding or testing the truth of
something [syn: validation, substantiation]

-----------------

From The Free On-line Dictionary of Computing (27 SEP 03):

proof

1. <logic> A finite sequence of well-formed formulas, F1,
F2, ... Fn, where each Fi either is an axiom, or follows by
some rule of inference from some of the previous F's, and Fn
is the statement being proved.

See also proof theory.

[Xtremehkr]

Scientific Method, Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method)

Scientific Method, U of Rochester. (http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html)

The Scientific Method Today (http://www.scientificmethod.com/)

Now, quid pro quo, start showing me all of your proof for god(s) and/or why there is only one god or drop it already.

[skunk]

I'm pleased to report that UK contributions from the public have now reached over £100 million, or $195 million
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4152933.stm

[zimv20]

You are claiming that everything in the world is working on unproven science and that science has yielded no answers which is ridiculous.
i wouldn't say it's ridiculous, but i would say he's playing a rather tedious game of philosophy.

he's being the radical empiricist. and if science can't be proven, nor can anything else, like that china exists right now, or that there's a universe outside my front door. how can i know? i'm in my office right now and can only speculate based on prior experience. but i cannot prove that universe exists.

tedious.

[absolut_mac]

Scientific Method, Wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method)

Scientific Method, U of Rochester. (http://teacher.nsrl.rochester.edu/phy_labs/AppendixE/AppendixE.html)

The Scientific Method Today (http://www.scientificmethod.com/)

Now, quid pro quo, start showing me all of your proof for god(s) and/or why there is only one god or drop it already.

This argument is getting stale, but to answer your statement once again.

Are you kidding me? The modern world is built on proven science.

You made a blanket statement which I refuted with the example given above. Yes, my position was extreme, only in response to your all encompassing statement.

I never mentioned anything about proving anything about one or multiple gods. I only gave that example to show you that there are many processes that we use today because of a reasonable understanding of how they work, not because we can prove why they work. There is no need to prove why they work in order to enjoy the benefits that that they offer.

Again, as mentioned above, when it comes to things that cannot be seen (magnetism) or dynamic processes (light) it is very difficult if not impossible for modern science to prove why they work, or even exactly how they work.

Thanks for a spirited debate, and thanks also for keeping it civil.

And yes, I sure hope that my prayers an donations do help the victims.

[absolut_mac]

I think you're missing one important point about science. Scientifics proofs are not proofs, They are theories based in the disproven. You can 'prove' how something works based on an understanding of how the world works but that proof may be disproven at a later stage when knew evidence is found from research elsewhere.

We may know an awful lot about this universe, but there is an awful lot that we can only try to "prove" based on assumptions. AS we delve deeper into quantum physics these assumptions may well change, its happened in the past.

Very fact that science can't disprove the existence of some form of God/Force or whatever, may well be old **** but it's important, regardless of what your beliefs are.

Thanks for putting it far more eloquently than me :)

[Xtremehkr]

Tedious is right, cause he has far less chance of proving religion.

So what are you proving with this point anyway?

Where are semantics getting you?

You can take things to a philosophical level and try to find proof that you wake up every morning but that's kind of a waste of my time.

Maybe the Tsunami is just a figment of our imaginations too. Boring.

[pseudobrit]

There is a theme we've seen from a few people here recently.

I think the key to is a sentiment of "I can't understand the science behind ______, therefore no one else can either, therefore it's not true"

I've never tried to get my head around quantum physics, but if I tried and failed, I would not conclude the problem was with quantum physics.

[solvs]

So what are you proving with this point anyway?
Our point exactly. This is not the place to be arguing about religion. You made your point, prayers are nice and all, but more is needed. We get it. But there is a right way to make it and a wrong way, no need to insult people just because they believe differently than you. And just because something isn't proven, doesn't mean it's disproven.

That being said, do you really think this is the place to be talking about this? I mean, really? Isn't it as much a disservice to not allow people to properly grieve in their own way? Coping mechanism, remember?

[Xtremehkr]

Our point exactly. This is not the place to be arguing about religion. You made your point, prayers are nice and all, but more is needed. We get it. But there is a right way to make it and a wrong way, no need to insult people just because they believe differently than you. And just because something isn't proven, doesn't mean it's disproven.

That being said, do you really think this is the place to be talking about this? I mean, really? Isn't it as much a disservice to not allow people to properly grieve in their own way? Coping mechanism, remember?

Apparently I didn't, I had to prove science too. Insulting? I never saw it as being that, just a call for action, in tangible terms. Broken record set to repeat ad infinitum. Argue with the message not me, I've stated my position.

Calling on to proof of science in that face of asking for more than prayer? a reason for not believing in my book. Represent your religion as you will, but don't expect anything other than an honest response from me.