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BlackMangoTree
Oct 5, 2010, 10:42 AM
This has been discussed in other threads, i thought i would start it's own thread in hope it gets more attention and we can all work together to get some solution.

Instead of me explaining the issue i'll just post what hipnetic has said.

Quote:
Just registered so that I could reply to this thread. I did some Googling on stuttering and found this thread. I've reported in the Handbrake forums and in the following Apple support forum thread that I'm having problems even with 720p content:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread....readID=2599423

Note: There are several of us reporting the problem in that thread.

To summarize, the problem is not related to the network. The movie has been fully loaded to the Apple TV's buffer. For those who do not own a new Apple TV, when the status bar is all white, the movie is fully loaded to the buffer. When it is only partially loaded to the buffer, the white portion of the status bar is how much has been loaded to the buffer, and the gray portion behind it, has not.

The interesting thing is that it appears that the stutter/judder/dropped frames are actually *more* frequent when the movie is *fully* loaded to the buffer. That seems counterintuitive, but there you go. One person experiencing this problem theorized that perhaps the Apple TV is getting ambitious once it's loaded the movie to the buffer and is doing some sort of background task.

In any case, the movie that I'm using to test with is Monsters vs Aliens. The opening scene (right after the film stock melts away) shows some part of the universe, with the camera panning through the asteroid rings around a planet, then centering the camera on another planet, which then explodes. That panning sequence is good for noticing stutter/judder. I have a few different flavors of this movie converted via Handbrake. All play perfectly smoothly on my Acer Revo nettop running Windows 7 and XBMC. These 720p files also appear to play perfectly smoothly on my iPhone 4 (but the screen is so small that it's possible that there's a glitch that I'm just not seeing). One person indicated that they did not see the problem on their iPad, which is important because one theory/concern of mine is that the Apple TV's 256 MB of RAM could be insufficient (the iPhone 4 has 512MB). But as I don't have access to an iPad I can't confirm this first-hand.

My hope is to keep that thread towards the top of the Apple support forums and that they'll issue a firmware fix (assuming they
*can* fix it).
End Quote


My experience has been, Video i have encoded for the original Apple TV using Handbrake when played back on the new Apple TV once the file is fully buffered onto the Apple TV it will stutter all over the place.

New encodes i have done using the latest nightly build of Handbrake using the High Profile preset playback perfect with no stuttering.

I am not 100% sure but i suspect this could be an issue with our TV's something to do with the fps and hz.

Anyone experiencing similar issues please post your findings maybe we can put a finger on what is causing this issue.



BlackMangoTree
Oct 5, 2010, 10:59 AM
Has anyone seen this issue with iTunes movie rentals ?

hipnetic, to answer your question, I been using the lastest nightly build SVN3570 64 bit OS X version.

I select the high profile preset i set the the audio one aac one ac3 track, the RF i use is 18, i turn all filters off and set the resolution to 1280 anamorphic set to none.

Some people have reported this issue with the iTunes rentals as well so i don't think it has anything to do with handbrake.

hipnetic
Oct 5, 2010, 02:13 PM
Has anyone seen this issue with iTunes movie rentals ?

hipnetic, to answer your question, I been using the lastest nightly build SVN3570 64 bit OS X version.

I select the high profile preset i set the the audio one aac one ac3 track, the RF i use is 18, i turn all filters off and set the resolution to 1280 anamorphic set to none.

Some people have reported this issue with the iTunes rentals as well so i don't think it has anything to do with handbrake.
Just to clarify, you said that you are *NOT* seeing this problem with the nightly builds (set as you've indicated), but you *ARE* seeing it with older encodes (using the profile setting for compatibility with the older Apple TV), correct?

BlackMangoTree
Oct 5, 2010, 02:15 PM
So far with the latest nightly i have not see the issue using High Profile.

All the videos i have seen the problem with where done with previous nightlies using the Apple TV preset

hipnetic
Oct 5, 2010, 02:20 PM
So far with the latest nightly i have not see the issue using High Profile.

All the videos i have seen the problem with where done with previous nightlies using the Apple TV preset

OK, so you're using *literally* the latest nightly build (as of Oct 5)? Thanks, I'll give that a try and will report back.

pirateRACE
Oct 5, 2010, 02:24 PM
Good thread. Thanks BlackMangoTree.

So is it safe to assume that we all should use the nightly build and the "High Profile" preset? Slide RF to 18?

BlackMangoTree
Oct 5, 2010, 02:24 PM
Yes, downloaded it about 12 hours ago.

I don't know if it's safe, all i can say for now is that i haven't seen any issues yet. RF is up to you depending on what quality you like.

pirateRACE
Oct 5, 2010, 02:31 PM
Great. This is the build that allows DTS to AC3 as well? Man, these guys have an awesome product.

These forums are great if you can sift through all the complaining! :D
I've learned some really cool things with MakeMKV, Handbrake and auto-tagging/adding to iTunes with Automator & Hazel. Making safe backups for my Blu-rays is becoming really simple.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 5, 2010, 02:34 PM
Great. This is the build that allows DTS to AC3 as well? Man, these guys have an awesome product..

Yes DTS to AC3, id been hanging out for it for ages just was added today.

Would be good is Apple put this much effort into their work then we wouldn't be seeing this stuttering issue.

hipnetic
Oct 5, 2010, 04:57 PM
Yes DTS to AC3, id been hanging out for it for ages just was added today.

Would be good is Apple put this much effort into their work then we wouldn't be seeing this stuttering issue.

OK, I'm stuck with Windows, and the latest Windows GUI apparently does not have DTS working yet, so perhaps it also lacks whatever magic might have fixed your problem. I downloaded/installed it, used your settings, and just converted the first 120 seconds of my movie, since that's where I've got the scene I want to closely inspect anyway.

So far, no good. Two things:

1) The movie is playing in the wrong aspect ratio (it's displaying as 4:3 with black bars on the left/right). I believe that this is because I set Anamorphic to "None" per your recommendations. Should I have also then checked the "Keep aspect ratio" checkbox? Or perhaps I should be using a different Anamorphic setting?

2) I'm still seeing the stutter.

I really don't think my problem is related to me not being on quite the latest build, though, as it seems like the only significant change that was made to that build was support for DTS -> AC3. I'm now thinking that the problems you were having before are different than the *very subtle* stutter issues I'm still seeing.

LunaticRed
Oct 5, 2010, 06:36 PM
I posted this in the thread about the Apple TV handling 1080P, but thought I would repost here, in case it helps to figure out what's going on.

--snip--
Some observations of mine, so far.

First, my setup. I've got the Apple TV connected to an Airport Extreme via Wi-Fi, a Mac Mini and a Mac Pro 8 core connected to a Gigabit switch, and a Syswan SW24 Dual WAN router.

I tested the Lion of Judah, and a Harry Potter trailer to see how they played. They both appear to play fine, no dropped frames/stuttering (I've been working in the television industry for over 20 years, so I know what to look for).

Looking at the Mini's processor load, it appears that the host computer is doing the conversion from 1080P to 720P. So, if you have a high load on your host while the video is being converted/streamed it may lead to dropped frames/stuttering, and once loaded into the Apple TVs buffer, it would repeat that same stuttering each time you play it.

Now, I still need to do a lot more testing, so I wouldn't consider my findings definitive by any means. But, if iTunes is having to convert a file to stream to the Apple TV, even if it's already a 720P file, and the host cpu is under heavy load, that may explain why some people are seeing the problem and others aren't.

Just my 2
--snip--

Hope this helps.

IbisDoc
Oct 5, 2010, 06:48 PM
I've also noticed an occasional very subtle stutter with HD iTunes purchases, not enough to disrupt the show or movie, but enough to irritate me a bit. Even though the video appears to be fully buffered, I tried switching from wireless to a wired (powerline) connection. Still happens, but not as often.....I think.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 5, 2010, 07:41 PM
OK, I'm stuck with Windows, and the latest Windows GUI apparently does not have DTS working yet, so perhaps it also lacks whatever magic might have fixed your problem. I downloaded/installed it, used your settings, and just converted the first 120 seconds of my movie, since that's where I've got the scene I want to closely inspect anyway.

I would have to say 100% sure the stuttering has nothing to with handbrake when others are reporting that the iTunes rentals behave the same way and stutter.

I think all we can do is wait and hope that Apple fixes this issue.

hipnetic
Oct 5, 2010, 07:57 PM
I would have to say 100% sure the stuttering has nothing to with handbrake when others are reporting that the iTunes rentals behave the same way and stutter.

I think all we can do is wait and hope that Apple fixes this issue.Now you're confusing me. I thought you indicated previously that the latest Handbrake build fixed the problem for you? I've encoded yet another version, but my daughter's watching something on the aTV over Netflix right now, so I have to wait for her to go to bed. I'm not optimistic, though.

At some point I'm probably going to have to make a decision as to whether to try not to look for the problem and see if I can be happy, or switch back to using my Acer Revo w/XBMC and hope that Apple eventually fixes it via a firmware update.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 5, 2010, 08:25 PM
How can handbrake be causing the issue ? when even the iTunes store Rentals show the stutter ? I doubt very much Apple use handbrake to encode their movies.

To me this seems like some TV's can't convert whatever the Apple Tv is putting out 60fps 50/60hz

hipnetic
Oct 5, 2010, 08:29 PM
How can handbrake be causing the issue ? when even the iTunes store Rentals show the stutter ? I doubt very much Apple use handbrake to encode their movies.I'm not saying that Handbrake is causing the issue (I don't think it is), I'm just confused, because a previous post of yours suggested that the latest build of Handbrake produced videos that didn't have the issue, which would indicate that *you* were suggesting that Handbrake was the issue. What am I missing?

jajohns8
Oct 5, 2010, 08:39 PM
Yes, I am getting this very subtle stutter as well when playing back HD content.

I used the standard ATV preset as well as the high profile, and the stutter persists on both encodes.

My apple TV version 1 handles the ATV standard encode just fine.
This means there is something 'different' about the new apple TV.

The stutter occurs at regular intervals, is very slight, and is not related to graphically intensive scenes.

Others have reported the same stutter with HD Itunes rentals.

Some have suggested that a process that runs in the background at regular intervals is the culprit.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 5, 2010, 09:09 PM
I have only seen the issue with encodes i done for the previous Apple TV.

Strange that you are seeing them with the high profile preset.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 5, 2010, 09:12 PM
I'm not saying that Handbrake is causing the issue (I don't think it is), I'm just confused, because a previous post of yours suggested that the latest build of Handbrake produced videos that didn't have the issue, which would indicate that *you* were suggesting that Handbrake was the issue. What am I missing?

Yea all i meant was the the latest nightly build with the High Profile preset was playing fine with no stutter. I never thought or suggested handbrake was a fault.

I have movies encoded with different apps and they stutter, even a movie i bought from the iTune store a couple years back stutters.

When anamorphic is off you should check Keep aspect ratio

hipnetic
Oct 5, 2010, 09:29 PM
Here's what I just posted in the Handbrake forums...

My latest test still gets the stutter problem. Really aggravating. I just want to reiterate that you probably have to look closely to see this, so I suspect that many people who are reporting that they are getting flawless playback are simply not seeing it but are, I'm sorry, mistaken. I've played *so many* variations of this clip, all encoded with Handbrake at several variations in settings, and they all have the problem. I've also played every single one of these clips on my Acer Revo nettop running Windows 7 and XBMC, and going to the exact same TV (a Sharp 52" 120Hz 1080p LCD), and they all play perfectly smoothly.

So the good news is that Handbrake is pretty great. I can take my 1080p uncompressed Blu-ray rips at 18GB+ and get them down to 3GB 720p files which still look great. The only catch is that I have to play them on my nettop, as my new Apple TV can't play them perfectly.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 5, 2010, 09:41 PM
Strange that you are getting the issue when i am not. Anything i have encoded with High Profile works flawlessly. It's just encodes i have done for the previous Apple Tv that once the movie is fully buffered it starts to stutter.

Have you tired this on another source ?

What happens is you download the 1080p Lion of Juda trailer from the Apple website and encode it with High profile set to 1280 by 720.

Also use another application to encode the video.

monnelly
Oct 6, 2010, 04:59 PM
Hey guys, I had lots of problems with my box stuttering, with my handbrake encodes. I took my box back and got it replaced, and it still stuttered during playback of movies and tv shows - it was even doing it to shows which i paid for in iTunes. I then decided that since the second box was still stuttering, that it wasn't my computer that was at fault, and it wasn't the Apple TV either. The fault is caused by the refresh rate of the Apple TV with certain TV scalers. I have a Sony 46" hx703 and I was getting the problem. To solve the problem, all I needed to do was change the scaling mode from film mode 1 to film mode 2. I think all the stuttering problems are being caused by different pulldown ratios with different tv scalers over the HDMIs. Hope this helps if any one needs help message me and i will see what i can do.

hipnetic
Oct 6, 2010, 06:28 PM
The fault is caused by the refresh rate of the Apple TV with certain TV scalers. I have a Sony 46" hx703 and I was getting the problem. To solve the problem, all I needed to do was change the scaling mode from film mode 1 to film mode 2. I think all the stuttering problems are being caused by different pulldown ratios with different tv scalers over the HDMIs. Hope this helps if any one needs help message me and i will see what i can do.Well, I want to watch my video clip a dozen more times before I say so for sure, but I think you might have nailed it. If so, I feel like a dope, too, because monkeying around with my Acer Revo w/XBMC settings to replicate what the Apple TV is doing (sending 720 @ 60Hz) is something I had meant to experiment with. I kind of discounted the possibility before because I've seen judder on my XBMC box (same scene) and it was more constant. In that panning space scene, it would happen every second (maybe more), whereas with the Apple TV, I was seeing a glitch more like every 10 seconds (I didn't time it, I'm just pulling that number out of the air).

But based on your comments, I cracked open my Sharp Aquos 120Hz LCD manual and looked to see what options were available. There are three 3:2 film-related settings available. The default was labeled "Low" (whatever that's supposed to mean). There's also a "High" setting, so I tried that. If anything, the glitch seemed a bit worse or more frequent, but I can't say for certain (more testing required). And then there's an "Off" setting. With that option set, I *think* that I'm not seeing any glitches, *BUT* the overall motion seems less smooth. Rather than appearing as an occasional glitch, the overall motion feels like it's running at a reduced framerate or something. I'll have to test this out with other clips to see which of these two evils is more bearable, or if they both drive me crazy.

My TV also has a "Fine Motion" (I think that's what they call it) mode which is supposed to be better for fast action. Not sure what that's doing behind the scenes, but I may toggle that on/off see if I can make out any improvements.

One of my next tests will be to hook up my Apple TV to my Panasonic AE-700U LCD projector which is native 720p, to see if things are any better or worse there.

Maybe I'm just spoiled having seen how things look on my Acer Revo w/XBMC. That sends out the native sync rate (24p in this case), though I believe it is upscaling it to 1080p.

FSUSem1noles
Oct 6, 2010, 06:32 PM
Hey guys, I had lots of problems with my box stuttering, with my handbrake encodes. I took my box back and got it replaced, and it still stuttered during playback of movies and tv shows - it was even doing it to shows which i paid for in iTunes. I then decided that since the second box was still stuttering, that it wasn't my computer that was at fault, and it wasn't the Apple TV either. The fault is caused by the refresh rate of the Apple TV with certain TV scalers. I have a Sony 46" hx703 and I was getting the problem. To solve the problem, all I needed to do was change the scaling mode from film mode 1 to film mode 2. I think all the stuttering problems are being caused by different pulldown ratios with different tv scalers over the HDMIs. Hope this helps if any one needs help message me and i will see what i can do.

Where do you find this setting? Is it on the tv end??

BlackMangoTree
Oct 6, 2010, 07:51 PM
I have always suspected the Tv refresh rates had something to do with it.

But why only on some videos and only once the video is fully buffered on the Apple TV. ?

Just tested it now playing a Bluray rip of Coming to America, it plays perfectly but as soon as it has fully buffered on to the Apple TV it starts to stutter.

newagemac
Oct 6, 2010, 08:25 PM
I always turn all that fancy processing crap off on my HDTVs. My Sony has "motionflow" and "motion enhancer" fancy frame interpolation settings too but I learned that these things are more a gimmick than anything else because they usually cause more problems than it is worth. It's basically different ways to interpolate frames and handle the 3:2 pulldown. If you have a 120hz tv you really should turn all that stuff off and let the tv do a straight frame repeat rather than interpolating and inventing frames out of thin air because that is what causes judder and stuttering like people are posting in this thread.

rkuo
Oct 6, 2010, 08:27 PM
Well, I want to watch my video clip a dozen more times before I say so for sure, but I think you might have nailed it. If so, I feel like a dope, too, because monkeying around with my Acer Revo w/XBMC settings to replicate what the Apple TV is doing (sending 720 @ 60Hz) is something I had meant to experiment with. I kind of discounted the possibility before because I've seen judder on my XBMC box (same scene) and it was more constant. In that panning space scene, it would happen every second (maybe more), whereas with the Apple TV, I was seeing a glitch more like every 10 seconds (I didn't time it, I'm just pulling that number out of the air).

But based on your comments, I cracked open my Sharp Aquos 120Hz LCD manual and looked to see what options were available. There are three 3:2 film-related settings available. The default was labeled "Low" (whatever that's supposed to mean). There's also a "High" setting, so I tried that. If anything, the glitch seemed a bit worse or more frequent, but I can't say for certain (more testing required). And then there's an "Off" setting. With that option set, I *think* that I'm not seeing any glitches, *BUT* the overall motion seems less smooth. Rather than appearing as an occasional glitch, the overall motion feels like it's running at a reduced framerate or something. I'll have to test this out with other clips to see which of these two evils is more bearable, or if they both drive me crazy.

My TV also has a "Fine Motion" (I think that's what they call it) mode which is supposed to be better for fast action. Not sure what that's doing behind the scenes, but I may toggle that on/off see if I can make out any improvements.

One of my next tests will be to hook up my Apple TV to my Panasonic AE-700U LCD projector which is native 720p, to see if things are any better or worse there.

Maybe I'm just spoiled having seen how things look on my Acer Revo w/XBMC. That sends out the native sync rate (24p in this case), though I believe it is upscaling it to 1080p.

Whoa. If you have Fine Motion on and it is doing 120Hz frame rate interpolation then you absolutely have to turn it off to do any sort of valid testing.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 6, 2010, 08:44 PM
I still don't buy it being a refresh rate issue. Because the stutter is only there when the movie is fully buffered on the Apple TV.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 6, 2010, 09:09 PM
Noticed the discussion over at the Apple forums has been deleted.

Apple made a dud or a turn as someone else put it.

hipnetic
Oct 6, 2010, 09:35 PM
Noticed the discussion over at the Apple forums has been deleted.

Apple made a dud or a turn as someone else put it.
The thread has not been deleted. It's still there. Here's the link:
http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2599423

It hasn't been replied to in the last 24+ hours, so it's on page 10 as of this moment.

Regarding the way that it seems to present the problem more frequently when the movie is fully loaded to the buffer, I can't explain that and I do agree that I'm fairly certain that my experience was in line with that. However, unlike some others, I definitely *did* see the problem even when it wasn't fully loaded to the buffer. It did appear to be more frequent when it had, but it still occurred even when it hadn't.

Anyways, here's my update:
1) I played one or two of my video clips a few times with the two TV options I previously described turned on, and a few times with both options turned off. With the options turned off, the problem has either gone away completely or it's so infrequent as to be a non-issue. After the 2nd or 3rd test with the options turned off, I decided to skip ahead and watch a couple of minutes of my movie where there are a couple of people talking to eachother so that I could "just watch" the movie and see if I was bothered by anything once I'd been paying attention to the movie, and not looking for problems. Again, it either wasn't happening, or it was so infrequent/minor so as to not impact my enjoyment of the movie. Switching back to having both options on caused the problem to reappear (every 5-10 seconds, and I played the clip a few times).

2) I might have gotten a bit greedy at that point, as I then decided to try out the 1080p encode I did early on. That played, but there were noticeable dropped frames fairly frequently. It wasn't "horrible" (I've seen worse), but it would certainly be unwatchable for me. If the Apple TV eventually gets totally jailbroken and they can overclock the A4 chip, perhaps it will be up to the task. They'll obviously also need to hack it to output 1080p instead of 720p.

Oh, the only other comments I'll add at this time are that I had a few different clips to test out (different encodes I had done with Handbrake). My 720p, High Profile, RF16, no filters encode looked the best. The iPad (adjusted for 1280 width) encode didn't look as good. If time allows, I'll do some more head-to-head comparisons on those sorts of things so that I can settle down on some specific encoding settings to use.

For now, I'm cautiously calling this a success. Playing this on my projector and 92" screen will be my next test. Wish me luck.

DoFoT9
Oct 6, 2010, 09:43 PM
so much for backwards compatibility, eh? :rolleyes:

so 1080p films actually play? what is the max observable bitrate that the AppleTV can decode?

BlackMangoTree
Oct 6, 2010, 10:32 PM
Thanks for the update.

The link in your original post was showing Apple forum doesn't exists thats why i thought it was deleted.

I am still at a loss to why it stutters only once the movie is fully buffered and only old encodes of mine, anything i encode with the High Profile Preset does not stutter ever.

I will bring this unit down to my brothers place when i get a chance and try his Tv and see if it's actually a refresh problem.

The original Apple TV plays back all my old encodes perfectly.

This is a very frustrating issue and i am thinking of returning the Apple TV.

hipnetic
Oct 6, 2010, 11:12 PM
I am still at a loss to why it stutters only once the movie is fully buffered and only old encodes of mine, anything i encode with the High Profile Preset does not stutter ever.Again, I personally experienced the stutter even before the movie was fully loaded to the buffer, but it did appear to be more frequent/noticeable when fully loaded. FWIW, one of the encodes I made recently was using the old Apple TV preset (albeit, via a recently nightly build of Handbrake). So, I just tried that out and I'm still seeing the same results. Even after fully loading to the buffer, my movie which previously had stutter/judder/glitch issues is now playing back fine (or, if it does have any issues, they're very, very minor). I don't have an old Apple TV, so I can't compare the two, but I'm increasingly confident that the problems are related to the sync rate differences and/or some of the advanced settings that TVs use to "improve" things. I still place most of the blame on Apple, since they would ideally output the video at its native framerate, but it seems (at least for me, so far) that I can diminish/eliminate the issue by toggling some settings on my TV.

As I previously noted, I still need to test out my new Apple TV when plugged into my projector, so we'll see how that goes.

Hopefully Apple will improve things (assuming it's even possible with the current hardware) by issuing a firmware update which allows for sending out some resolutions/sync rates other than just 720p @ 60Hz.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 6, 2010, 11:37 PM
Hopefully Apple will improve things (assuming it's even possible with the current hardware) by issuing a firmware update which allows for sending out some resolutions/sync rates other than just 720p @ 60Hz.

720p @ 60Hz is what i set my original Apple Tv and don't see the stuttering.

monnelly
Oct 7, 2010, 05:26 AM
Hi guys, I'm back. After more experimenting with my old Samsung 40" 1080p TV - which has no scaling options and very bare-basic processing - I encountered no stuttering at all. As for my Sony, I never use motion flow or any motion enhancers, as I feel they make the picture look unrealistic. However, you do have separate scaling options, which I do leave active for standard def content because it does make a huge difference. But by changing the scaler settings I managed to alleviate all stutter on my TV. I don't know why it stutters more for some people when the buffer is completely full, but mine used to stutter when the buffer was empty as well; it just always stuttered regardless of how much content was in there, but never did it for standard def content.

This whole problem reminds me of when the first blu ray players came out, with 1080p at 24fps. it caused stuttering and catch-up moments just like what we're seeing here. I think it must be caused by the refresh rate not being perfectly in sync with what TVs are used to, ie. instead of syncing at 60hz at 720p, it might be doing it at 59HZ or 61HZ. But, if everyone who has an issue with stuttering can post what TV they're using, and if it's a pal set or ntsc set - then if we get enough information together, we might be able to figure out the key reason why some sets stutter and others don't.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 7, 2010, 06:05 AM
Panasonic Plasma Model No. TH-42PX7A

Screen Size (cm viewable) 106
Screen Size (inches viewable) 42
Screen Type Plasma
Panel Type Progressive HD Plasma Panel
Panel Aspect Ratio 16:9 (Widescreen)
Aspect Ratio Control Modes (TV/AV modes) 4:3, 4:3 Full, 14:9, 16:9, DVB-T 16:9 Fixed, Just, Zoom1, Zoom2, Zoom3
Aspect Ratio Control Modes (PC mode) 16:9, 4:3
Comb Filter 3D Digital
100Hz Technology Yes
Progressive Scan Yes
TV Tuner Receiving System DVB (Digital), PAL-B/G (Analogue)
Tuner Type Integrated SD/HD DVB-T 7MHz Australia, PAL B/G
Electronic Program Guide (EPG) Support1 Yes - 7 Day
Channel Preset/s -
Colour System PAL, NTSC
Picture In Picture (PIP) No
Multi-Window -
CATV/Hyperband Tuner No
Stereo PAL 2CS Stereo
Horizontal Resolution (pixels) 1024
Vertical Resolution (pixels) 768
Contrast Ratio:1 - Native 10000
Contrast Ratio:1 - Dynamic TBC
Picture Adjustment Modes / Film Modes Normal, Dynamic, Cinema
Colour Temperature Control Normal, Cool, Warm
Picture Quality Improvement Functions 3D Comb Filter, Picture Noise Reduction, MPEG Noise Reduction
Teletext Yes
Audio Output Power - Total (Watts RMS) 20
Speakers 2
Audio Features Bass/Treble, Balance, Headphone Volume
Auto Timed On/Off Switch Off Only
On Screen Display Languages English
DTV Parental Guidance Info No
Remote Control Standard
SD Card Slot No
Component Video Input x2
Applicable Component Video Input Signals 576i @ 50Hz (15.63KHz), 576p @ 50Hz (31.25KHz), 720p @ 50Hz (37.50KHz), 1,080i @ 50Hz (28.125KHz), 480i @ 60Hz (15.73KHz), 480p @ 60Hz (31.47KHz), 720p @ 60Hz (45KHz), 1,080i @ 60Hz (33.75KHz)
HDMI Input/Output Input Only, x1
Applicable HDMI Video Input Signals 576i @ 50Hz (15.63KHz), 576p @ 50Hz (31.25KHz), 720p @ 50Hz (37.50KHz), 1,080i @ 50Hz (28.125KHz), 480i @ 60Hz (15.73KHz), 480p @ 60Hz (31.47KHz), 720p @ 60Hz (45KHz), 1,080i @ 60Hz (33.75KHz)
S-Video Input 1
Combined I/O Scart Terminal(s) -
PC Input 1x VGA (15 pin Mini-D-Dub)
Applicable PC Input Signals 4:3 ASPECT RATIO:, 640400 @ 70Hz (31.46KHz), 640480 @ 60 Hz (31.47KHz), 640480 @ 75 Hz (37.50KHz), 800600 @ 60 Hz (37.88KHz), 800600 @ 75 Hz (46.88KHz), 800600 @ 85 Hz (53.67KHz), 1,024768 @ 60 Hz (48.36KHz), 1,024768 @ 70 Hz (56.48KHz), 1,024768 @ 75 Hz (60.02KHz), 1,024768 @ 85 Hz (68.68KHz), 1,2801,024 @60 Hz (63.98KHz), Macintosh 13 inch 640x480 @66.67Hz (35KHz), Macintosh 16 inch 832x624 @74.54Hz (49.72KHz), Macintosh 21 inch 1152x870 @75.06Hz (68.68KHz)
A/V Input 3 - Rear
A/V 1: Stereo-in L&R [RCA], Video-in [RCA], S-Video-in [S terminal]
A/V 2: Stereo-in L&R [RCA], Video-in [RCA], Component Video Input [Y, Pb, Pr]
A/V 3: Stereo-in L&R [RCA], Video-in [RCA], Component Video Input [Y, Pb, Pr]
Digital Audio Out Optical Terminal, DVB-T Only
Monitor Out Stereo L&R [RCA], Video [RCA]

What is strange i only see this stutter once the movie is fully buffered. It's once every now and then, sometimes it plays fine for 10 mins then a slight stutter for a sec then plays fine again got 5 mins then a slight stutter for a sec.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 7, 2010, 12:35 PM
Oh well i have tried everything over the last few days to resolve this issue, different handbrake settings different apps different tv's different hdmi cables.

I am giving up.

The Apple Tv is going back to the store for a refund.

jajohns8
Oct 7, 2010, 01:29 PM
Blackmango, I have a Panasonic 42" plasma too. I forgot the exact model number, but will post later when back home.

Something.... X1 maybe? Bought it last year.

I hate to have to return my Apple TV 2, but I cant deal with the stutter anymore.

Interesting that people have reported the same stutter with rented Itunes HD videos.

I rented an HD version of a Family guy episode and it played ok. Would like to test this out more though.

chriso89
Oct 7, 2010, 01:36 PM
What is Video stutter?

SonicStomp
Oct 7, 2010, 03:52 PM
I am convinced that it is related to TV motion processing features.

I have a Sony KDL40W5500 Bravia 3 - I was noticing stutter regularly, so tried turning off motion flow - no change. Then I tried turning off 'Film Mode'. Hey presto - problem solved!! :)

'Film Mode' apparently provides "improved picture movement when playing DVD or VCR images taken on film, reducing picture blur and graininess."

Genuinely, this has solved the problem (or improved it to the point when I don't notice it anymore.)

BlackMangoTree
Oct 7, 2010, 09:13 PM
I think that we are dealing with two different issues.

For some of us we only see the issue arise once the movie has fully buffered onto the Apple TV, then it's only a very minor stutter more like a quick 1 second glitch that happens very infrequently, maybe once every 10 mins.

SonicStomp
Oct 8, 2010, 04:12 PM
Blackmango - the way in which you have described the problem is exactly how I would have described mine. Except mine is NOT related to buffer at all and has been solved by turning off my tv's motion processing feature.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 8, 2010, 10:15 PM
I have use 3 Apple TV's on 3 different TVs one TV was a sony turned off all its video enhancers, fixed the issue of stutter but did not get rid of the 1 sec glitch every now and then once the movie is fully buffered.

The way i see it 3 tv's 3 Apple Tv's all have the same issue, this is a Apple fault and needs to be fixed ASAP.

I feel it's bullsiht that Apple release a product with this kinda flaw, not to mention all the other issues. (Freaking subtitles don't work at all)

Whats happened to their QA ?

Maybe they'll release a bumper for the Apple TV.

What a joke. Seriously this is pathetic.

PS. My original Apple TV plays all my movies over HDMI without an issue. (subtitles work)

jajohns8
Oct 10, 2010, 07:44 AM
FWIW, my tv is a panasonic tcp42x1.

Blackmango, did you take yours back, or are you still testing?

I am curious to read the consensus of the handbrake community. Is this a widespread issue that rears it's ugly head only with HD (particularly with HD handbrake encodes, but has been reported with HD iTunes rentals.) material? Television specific?

One thing is for sure. It's not "just me."

This is definitely a problem with the device or a process unique to Atv2.

My atv1 plays back the same material flawlessly.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 10, 2010, 08:08 AM
It has been reported to be happening on iTunes rentals too. I have had it happen on SD dvd rips as well. I am 100% sure it is not handbrake related at all.

I think all we can do is wait for Apple to hopefully fix this issue.

elliotclowes
Oct 11, 2010, 01:07 AM
Lot's of great advice in here for me to try when I get back home. But I think I have a different issue. I don't see occasional stuttering at all, but on certain movies streamed over Home Share, every 10 minutes or so they'll be 10 seconds of 2fps then it will just freeze completely. Exiting the movie and resuming it fixes it, but only for another 10 minutes. I had to do that all the way through Lord of the Rings!

It doesn't occur with rents and as far as I can tell only with longer movies, 90 minute ones are fine, but that that's likely just a coincidence. This might be a known issue with a fix and I've just missed it in the forums, but any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

DoFoT9
Oct 11, 2010, 01:10 AM
It has been reported to be happening on iTunes rentals too. I have had it happen on SD dvd rips as well. I am 100% sure it is not handbrake related at all.

I think all we can do is wait for Apple to hopefully fix this issue.

it is likely that a a firmware/OS update will fix the issue - at this point in time we dont actually know where the problem lies by the looks of it, as we arent able to debug at the lowest levels.

n0ah87
Oct 12, 2010, 05:54 PM
Lot's of great advice in here for me to try when I get back home. But I think I have a different issue. I don't see occasional stuttering at all, but on certain movies streamed over Home Share, every 10 minutes or so they'll be 10 seconds of 2fps then it will just freeze completely. Exiting the movie and resuming it fixes it, but only for another 10 minutes. I had to do that all the way through Lord of the Rings!

It doesn't occur with rents and as far as I can tell only with longer movies, 90 minute ones are fine, but that that's likely just a coincidence. This might be a known issue with a fix and I've just missed it in the forums, but any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

This is exactly the same problem that I am having. I thought it might have been because I was using wireless so I ordered an Ethernet cable but it has done exactly nothing. It is extremely irritating and i've considered bringing my at2 back as well. When I get home i'll try out changing the TV settings and some of the encodings on handbrake to see if I have any success and let you know. Hopefully apple puts out a fix for this soon :mad:

BlackMangoTree
Oct 12, 2010, 10:51 PM
This Issue Has Nothing To Do With Handbrake.

JeffLebowski41
Oct 15, 2010, 12:21 PM
I'm seeing this too. very quick, half second at most stutter every few minutes after the movie has been buffered. Calibrated Panasonic s1 plasma..no motion enhancement or anything like that.

jajohns8
Oct 19, 2010, 08:59 AM
The Official Apple support page thread for this is up to 4 pages now. (just google 'Apple TV 2 video stutter' to find it. It's the top listing.)

One of the main things people are recommending is to fill out the Apple TV Feedback form, located here:

http://www.apple.com/feedback/appletv.html

The thread mentioned above also has the link.

Hopefully we will see a resolution to this through a firmware update.

badweasel
Oct 22, 2010, 06:55 AM
Before finding this thread I had already started another one at:

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1034558

Then hipnetic was kind enough to direct me over here. If you have not seen my comments over there you should give it a read also.

There are different kinds of playback problems and we shouldn't get them confused. One of my friends had issues with a total video freeze lasting for several seconds and then it catching up. He fixed that by doing a reset all. I never had this problem.

Then there can be problems introduced by using different tv digital filters (a setting in some tv's) which do motion smoothing and things like that. However, typically these types of problems would be completely repeatable given the same source material. Play a movie twice and you should see the same types of artifacts each time you play it and in the same scenes in the movie each time. Repeatable. Oh.. and also I would expect this type of problem to show up no matter if you're playing off the old or new apple tv. Our problem is on the new but not on the old.

A problem with a handbreak encode might be repeatable and might be intermittent depending on why. If you set the bit rate slightly too high you could see a dropped frame anywhere, back up play again and it might be ok. This theoretically could drop a frame even if the movie is fully cached, say if the h264 decoder or the bus from the cache just choked on the bit rate. A problem like that COULD be intermittent but more likely would be repeatable. Since the two atv's are different hardware and software, this could be an issue that plays different on different hardware. Still I suspect something else (other than handbreak) since movies purchased from apple exhibit this problem.

I suspect it can be fixed with an AppleTV software update.. which we think will be coming in early november when apple releases iOS 4.2 for iPad.

hipnetic.. are you seeing any skipping on netflix? I've always thought netflix streaming was crap anyway but have not tried it in a while, so not sure you'd notice a difference. I suspect that the netflix player is completely different code, so maybe it doesn't have the problem.

hipnetic
Oct 22, 2010, 07:51 AM
Hopefully a mod will merge the two threads, since there's some very good information in that other thread now (though there's also too many posts which unfortunate/unnecessary arguing as to whether the problem exists or not).

I'm ashamed to say that since playing with test files the first few days of buying mine (around 10/1), I haven't played with mine much in the last week or so, simply because I've been busy with work, and also because I got sidetracked on another issue (trying to figure out how to deal with forced/necessary subtitles from a Blu-ray disc - a la Avatar).

I did play some Netflix stuff (my daughter played much more), and didn't really notice the issue, but also didn't look too closely for it. As you said, Netflix quality is pretty bad, so I don't expect too much out of it anyway. The big things I look for with Netflix are video tearing, because that's something that I got a lot of when trying to get Netflix playing back well on my Acer Revo nettop (Atom and NVIDIA ION GPU). I could never get it playing back on that without tearing, so I gave up on it. The other issue (which I see on my TiVo HD and Apple TV) is macroblocking (hopefully I'm using that term correctly) and/or artifacting with any degree of motion, but I chalk that up to Netflix's overcompression (low bitrate).

Back to the Apple TV stutter issue...As you said, there's a few different issues going on and I tried to steer people in that Apple TV support thread towards keeping it focused on the issue of the occasional minor stutter/judder type of issue, and not the type of issue where someone's bandwidth isn't fast enough and the movie pauses for several seconds. As you've noted, the occasional stutter/judder issue does not impact the audio at all.

As I mentioned in the other thread in these forums, I seemed to have fixed or at least greatly reduced the issue for me by turning off the advanced 3:2 pull-down settings on my 52" Sharp Aquos 120Hz LCD TV. Once the problem *seemed* to have gone away for me, I decided that if there was still an issue, other people would also be seeing it, and report it, and hopefully Apple could and would fix it. But if it seemed to be greatly improved for me, then I wanted to try to just "be happy" and stop looking for it, because it was driving me crazy.

So at that point I bought a 2nd unit (for my daughter's room) and got back into figuring out the best RF settings to use in Handbrake and, more recently, trying to figure out how to deal with Blu-ray subtitles. I do not own the older Apple TV, but instead am coming from having used a classic XBox running XBMC and playing a large collection of standard-def DVDs ripped as .ISO files. Then I got a couple of Acer Revos and started experimenting with Blu-rays and MakeMKV which, obviously, result in .mkv files. So I've got my work cut out for me to have to now convert all of those movies using Handbrake into .m4v files.

As a side note (in case anyone's wondering), I've made the decision (we'll see how that goes) of going with the Apple TV because of the end result simplicity of it all, even though that will require more up-front angst in terms of having to encode movies in a multi-step (and rather long) process of ripping/downconverting the movies. I can live with 720p and non-lossless audio since my current projector is only 720p anyway, and I like the idea of the filesizes being tiny and the ability to stream these movies wirelessly over the Apple TV's 802.11n without worrying about network hiccups causing stutters there.

jajohns8
Oct 22, 2010, 09:19 AM
I know, I am hoping the threads will be merged.

It sucks that a few (mostly trolls) are trying to dispute the fact that the problem exists, because it's a distraction from trying to find a solution.

Everyone wins if/when Apple fixes this.

All I care about is being able to watch my HD encodes without this crazy, subtle stutter.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 22, 2010, 10:58 PM
More discussion here http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1544924&p=23

badweasel
Oct 23, 2010, 03:41 AM
As a side note (in case anyone's wondering), I've made the decision (we'll see how that goes) of going with the Apple TV because of the end result simplicity of it all, even though that will require more up-front angst in terms of having to encode movies in a multi-step (and rather long) process of ripping/downconverting the movies. I can live with 720p and non-lossless audio since my current projector is only 720p anyway, and I like the idea of the filesizes being tiny and the ability to stream these movies wirelessly over the Apple TV's 802.11n without worrying about network hiccups causing stutters there.

I agree with your whole post. Even though it's off topic I want to say why I prefer Apple TV over something like popcorn hour (which I have 2) or Xbox, etc.

On the downside AppleTV is only 720P and I would prefer to have a solution that can play 1080P. Popcorn Hour does and so do other streamers and some game systems. But the thing is, for 1080P to really be any better than 720P it needs to be at a much higher bit rate. When I was authoring BD's we never went below 18 or 19mps or you'd get a lot of macroblocking, dirty blacks, compression artifacts. And if I were the type to rip movies.. and of course I'm not - right? - because that would be illegal and wrong - but if I were, being the quality freak that I am, I would want the full quality of the BD disc. 1080 is about quality - and BD is already h264 - you can't make it smaller without losing the quality that you were going after in 1080. But that would mean that every movie would take up between 25 and 40 Gigs! That category of file size belongs on physical media. Well.. even if it's on a hard drive it's physical media - but you know what I mean: discs. Ultimately a choice has to be made between the full 1080P full quality version or something less that is more convenient.

AppleTV is super convenient! Along with iTunes it keeps track of what I have and have not watched. I can watch half a movie on one tv, stop, and go to another unit and it knows where I left off. Same with tv series.. I don't have to remember which episode I'm on. ATV/iTunes tells me. The quality of HD movies purchased and rented from Apple are much better than what I had previously seen on netflix. I have a 13 foot projection screen and 1080P looks AWESOME!.. but many movies look almost as good in 720P. Some movies you really can't tell the difference because they don't have the source quality to need 1080P. Even still, a few minutes into the movie your mind forgets to notice any differences between 720 and 1080. For certain movies I prefer to watch on the full 1080 BD experience. 7.1 is nice when it's available. But for most other things 720 5.1 is fine.

And of course SD material looks awesome on ATV. (Well, let's say it CAN look awesome on ATV).

Other players are just not as convenient. I need one file format that plays on iPad, iPhone, computer, and whatever streamer I'm using. And the streamer needs an easy interface so that my kids and parents can use it (popcorn hour is text based menus).

Back on topic. I trust that this issue will be resolved within a week or two. Then my two new ATV's will be joined with one for every TV in my house and my parents house.

BlackMangoTree
Oct 23, 2010, 06:15 AM
This issue doesn't really exist it's all in our heads. The forum i posted earlier i was banned from arguing that this problem is real. I was told i was a troll nt to make things up and was baned.

hipnetic
Oct 23, 2010, 07:39 AM
badweasel (and everyone else experiencing this problem), have you tried testing out your Apple TV on multiple TV's, and ensuring any advanced video processing (e.g., 3:2 pull-down) features are turned off? If not, please do and report back, even providing specific makes/models of the TVs/projectors you're using.

benoitgphoto
Oct 23, 2010, 09:43 AM
badweasel (and everyone else experiencing this problem), have you tried testing out your Apple TV on multiple TV's, and ensuring any advanced video processing (e.g., 3:2 pull-down) features are turned off? If not, please do and report back, even providing specific makes/models of the TVs/projectors you're using.

Well I don't know what settings you are talking about. I don't seem to have that on my Samsung plasma PN42C450.

Done some other tests yesterday and definitively the stuttering only happens when the movie is fully downloaded into the ATV buffer. Here are the conditions where I see it :

It happens on iTunes store HD rentals.
Doesn't happen on SD rentals.
It seems to happen on streaming from computer for HD content only too but need to repeat tests on that. Doesn't happen on SD content for sure.
Doesn't happen with Netflix HD streaming

Stuttering is very short and can easily be missed. I changed ATV1 for ATV 2 and this bug was not on the ATV1.

I don't think it is defect hardware as a defect one won't work at all I guess. And it's certainly not a network issue as the stuttering occurs only WHEN THE MOVIE IS FULLY DOWNLOADED TO the Atv buffer. Also, given those conditions, looks to me that software update will easily fix it.

I'm a big Apple fanboy. For example, I have an iP4 and I think the antenna is a non issue. BUT, this issue with Apple TV 2 is real and based on Apple support forum, it looks like Apple is aware of it and I'm sure this will be corrected in november with the release of iOS 4.2

rz22g
Oct 23, 2010, 10:42 AM
I have tested this across 5 different 2010 Apple Units, using a different HD rental on each one, and found that it worked 100% of the time. This is just a temp fix but it will allow you to watch your movies without the jitter issue. I have not testing this on local content such as movies contained in your iTunes library.

1. Rent Movie and begin watching.
2. Keep track of buffer level by checking white progress meter (up or down arrow on remote)
3. White progress bar is the buffer. When it reaches the end (100%), this is when the jitters will start.
4. Reboot the ATV (Unplug power then plug back in)
5. Restart the movie. The buffer should still be full and it will playback without issue.

You may also be able to just rent and not start watching until the buffer fills. Not sure how that works. Point is let the movie buffer completely then reboot your ATV for smooth playback.

IbisDoc
Oct 23, 2010, 11:51 AM
LOL at the people saying it's a video settings issue. An old Apple TV, a PS3, an XBOX 360, a DVR, and a Blu-Ray player have no problems with video stuttering (on ANY setting), but this new POS needs a special video setting so that it works? This is almost as criminal as Apple's first generation MacBook Air failures.

"It just works." LOL.

jajohns8
Oct 25, 2010, 10:06 AM
First off, I apologize for the length of this post. I think it's necessary to describe what I did in detail though.

So, I managed to bust out some old gear and try a few different setups in the hopes that I could isolate a component, other than the Apple TV 2.

Setup one is my standard setup of a custom built Windows XP machine, Linksys WRT320N Router, with CAT5E wire throughout my house.
(If you care, I used genesis systems/Honeywell Cat5E through out. Have had zero problems with it.)

The wrt320N was reset using the standard reset button on the back of the device to reset it to system defaults.
The only router configuration change was to apply a wireless password on the wireless network after the reset.

The machine that acts as my media server is a Windows XP box, with ASUS P5B Deluxe motherboard. The processor is a Core 2 Duo E6600 at 2.4.
I have overclocked in the past, but at present, this machine has been completely restaged and is 'stock.' (Win XP Pro with all current updates.) I have 2gb of Crucial Ballistix DDR2 PC2 5300 RAM.

I have a fresh install of the latest version of ITunes, whatever that is as of Sunday evening.

So the components are the: the wrt320N router, my Windows XP box, the Apple TV 2 and my TV, which is a Panasonic TCP42X1.

Again, I went with the wired ethernet approach because wireless is very flaky in my experience. I did however test it with Wireless N (on the wrt320n and G with the WRT54GL) just for giggles on both setups, and there was still the stuttering issue.

The test content:

I used a handbrake encode of my Ironman 2 Bluray. The handbrake version is a nightly build from the middle of last week.
The handbrake setting is the Apple TV preset, and then dimensions changed to 1280 x XXX.
The source fed to handbrake is the resulting .m2ts file from clownbd/tsmuxer's extract from my Bluray.
This is my standard practice for my blurays and have had no problems with it. (The apple TV 1 has no problem with it either.)

In addition to the above mentioned content, I have noticed the stutter with a similarly encoded version of the Lost in Space Bluray, and my son's first baseball game home movie footage taken with a Flip Mino HD camera.
The official Apple support thread (8 pages now and growing) has instances of Itunes Store HD material also stuttering/jittering/dropping frames.

Another encode of the Iron Man 2 source has also been made with Handbrake's High Profile preset, with the dimensions changed appropriately.
There is talk that this preset takes more advantage of the ATV 2 hardware.

The test:
So, I started playback with the standard Apple TV preset encode. The video looks great. We see Ivan Danko's house in Moscow, etc. Everything is beautiful.
During this playback I am hitting pause to see how the buffer looks. Buffer is not quite full yet.

Then, I notice that the subtle frame drop is occurring. It's very faint and very subtle, but noticeable. I hit pause again, and sure enough, the buffer is now completely full.

Then, just for giggles, I try the High Profile encode. Same results. Buffer gets full, frames start dropping. But man, oh man, until the buffer is full and the frames drop, it looks FANTASTIC.

So then, I switch out the Apple TV 2 for my trusty old Apple TV 1, 160 GB model.

No problems. Plays back the standard apple tv encode SMOOTH AS SILK. (Did not try the High profile on the Apple tv 1.)


I go back to the Apple tv 2. This time I decided to change the router.
I try my trusty old linksys wrt54GL, again with a system reset, only wireless security added.
Same results.
This router, the WRT54GL is the most generic, standard router out there. It is the 39X customer award winner from Newegg.

You can't find a more 'commonly used' router. It has a well earned, positive reputation.

I repeat the experiment, this time with my mid 2010 15" macbook pro, COre i7, 4 GB RAM. I love this machine. I have a fresh install of Windows 7 64 bit (using bootcamp.) I installed an Intel x25m SSD instead of the stock hard drive. It is my dream laptop for development work.

I downloaded the 64bit verson of Itunes and transferred my 2 test movies over to this machine.

I then performed this test with this machine as the workhorse.

Same results.

I try every combination of hardware in the mix. I try wired ethernet, I try wireless. Still have the problem.

What happens, is the buffer fills, and then something happens that causes the frames to drop on the Apple TV 2.

The Apple TV 2 drops the frames when the buffer is full, but the Apple TV 1 plays them back just fine.

EDIT:
Also want to add 2 ITunes store HD purchases are stuttering too. The shows purchased were The Tudors (one episode) and Grey's Anatomy. (also one episode.)

These were purchased first on my desktop and then streamed to the ATV 2.