A Democratic Police State?

[Thanatoast]

link (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041228/wl_mideast_afp/usiraqpowell_041228172000)

Insurgency in Iraq 'will not end': Powell

WASHINGTON (AFP) - US Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) said that the insurgency in Iraq (news - web sites) "will not end," as insurgents are determined to derail the country's democratic transition.

Powell reiterated that Iraq's January 30 elections will take place as scheduled and that the US and Iraqi forces are working to have security in place for the polls.

But, he told CBS television, "the insurgency will not end."

"These insurgents are determined to have no representative government. They want to go back to a tyranny," Powell said.

"And so the insurgency will continue and the insurgency will have to be defeated by coalition forces, but increasingly the insurgency will be defeated and brought under control, if not completely defeated, by Iraqi forces that we are building up as rapidly as we can," he added.
Is this a contradiction in terms, or a looming catastrophe? Where is Iraq headed?

[mactastic]

Can't be trusted. What plan are you talking about?
Yahoo is a conservative mouthpiece. Look, I have proof. There's a period, and this:
Results 1 - 10 of about 97,300 for yahoo news conservative bias. (0.95 seconds)

Solid.

[zimv20]

Can't be trusted. What plan are you talking about?
Yahoo is a conservative mouthpiece. Look, I have proof. There's a period, and this:

Solid.
lol

[pseudobrit]

Results 1 - 30 of about 119,000 for yahoo news liberal bias. (0.52 seconds)

By a margin of over 20,000 votes, it's clear that Yahoo! has a liberal bias.

[mactastic]

By a margin of over 20,000 votes, it's clear that Yahoo! has a liberal bias.

Ooo and faster too! Clear proof. I stand corrected.

[blackfox]

<nevermind>

[zimv20]

Is this a contradiction in terms
at this point, it's pretty impossible to say, since no one has really taken the time to figure out what the various insurgency groups want. to this point, the bush administration has characterized them as a single group w/ a single goal: to destroy democracy.

i think that's pretty ludicrous. i couldn't state for certain, but i suspect that what a number of the insurgency groups want is a say in their own affairs, which is the underlying concept of democracy, imo.

sadly, no one prominent is discussing the situation in these terms. instead, we have "evil-doers" and the razing of cities.

[3rdpath]

I am soon off to see "Life Aquatica". Anyone seen it yet? I am excited...

went to a screening awhile back that had a q&a afterwards with wes anderson, owen wilson, jeff goldblum and willem defoe...very enlightening.

you'll like it. subtle, funny and bill murray can do no wrong. for some odd reason, cate blanchette really pulls my string. ;) and the music is great.

on topic, i'm glad i missed the 2nd grade tantrums...

i like the new spin that the elections are just the beginning of the process...and i guess our invasion was the beginning of a procees, as was the training of iraqis that seem hellbent on deserting. this administration has finally come up with a way to avoid not having an end game plan...just call everything a new beginning.

[solvs]

Building a Democratic Police State in Iraq? Testing to see if that kind of thing will work here in the future? The illusion of freedom? Nah, I'm just being paranoid.

Or am I?

[Xtremehkr]

If ordered Democracy isn't freedom then we are in trouble right here at home. We have laws too, just not as many or as powerful.

"Freedom" is not possible in any country that has a government is it?

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):

Freedom \Free"dom\ (fr[=e]"d[u^]m), n. [AS. fre['o]d[=o]m;
fre['o]free + -dom. See Free, and -dom.]
1. The state of being free; exemption from the power and
control of another; liberty; independence.

Made captive, yet deserving freedom more. --Milton.

2. Privileges; franchises; immunities.

Your charter and your caty's freedom. --Shak.

3. Exemption from necessity, in choise and action; as, the
freedom of the will.

4. Ease; facility; as, he speaks or acts with freedom.

5. Frankness; openness; unreservedness.

I emboldened spake and freedom used. --Milton.

6. Improper familiarity; violation of the rules of decorum;
license.

7. Generosity; liberality. [Obs.] --Chaucer.

Freedom fine, a sum paid on entry to incorporations of
trades.

Freedom of the city, the possession of the rights and
privileges of a freeman of the city; formerly often, and
now occasionally, conferred on one not a resident, as a
mark of honorary distinction for public services.

Syn: See Liberty.

-----------------

From WordNet (r) 2.0:

freedom
n 1: the condition of being free; the power to act or speak or
think without externally imposed restraints
2: immunity from an obligation or duty [syn: exemption]

-----------------

From U.S. Gazetteer (1990):

Freedom, CA (CDP, FIPS 25576)
Location: 36.94003 N, 121.78932 W
Population (1990): 8361 (2374 housing units)
Area: 4.2 sq km (land), 0.0 sq km (water)
Zip code(s): 95019
Freedom, IN
Zip code(s): 47431
Freedom, ME
Zip code(s): 04941
Freedom, NH
Zip code(s): 03836
Freedom, NY
Zip code(s): 14065
Freedom, OK (town, FIPS 27850)
Location: 36.76652 N, 99.11256 W
Population (1990): 264 (147 housing units)
Area: 0.7 sq km (land), 0.0 sq km (water)
Zip code(s): 73842
Freedom, PA (borough, FIPS 27712)
Location: 40.68465 N, 80.25336 W
Population (1990): 1897 (774 housing units)
Area: 1.5 sq km (land), 0.3 sq km (water)
Zip code(s): 15042
Freedom, WY
Zip code(s): 83120

-----------------

From Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary:

Freedom
The law of Moses pointed out the cases in which the servants of
the Hebrews were to receive their freedom (Ex. 21:2-4, 7, 8;
Lev. 25:39-42, 47-55; Deut. 15:12-18). Under the Roman law the
"freeman" (ingenuus) was one born free; the "freedman"
(libertinus) was a manumitted slave, and had not equal rights
with the freeman (Acts 22:28; comp. Acts 16:37-39; 21:39; 22:25;
25:11, 12).


-----------------

From THE DEVIL'S DICTIONARY ((C)1911 Released April 15 1993):

FREEDOM, n. Exemption from the stress of authority in a beggarly half
dozen of restraint's infinite multitude of methods. A political
condition that every nation supposes itself to enjoy in virtual
monopoly. Liberty. The distinction between freedom and liberty is
not accurately known; naturalists have never been able to find a
living specimen of either.

Freedom, as every schoolboy knows,
Once shrieked as Kosciusko fell;
On every wind, indeed, that blows
I hear her yell.

She screams whenever monarchs meet,
And parliaments as well,
To bind the chains about her feet
And toll her knell.

And when the sovereign people cast
The votes they cannot spell,
Upon the pestilential blast
Her clamors swell.

For all to whom the power's given
To sway or to compel,
Among themselves apportion Heaven
And give her Hell.
Blary O'Gary




What we have here in the U.S. is 'ordered liberty,' I believe.

From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913):

Liberty \Lib"er*ty\ (l[i^]b"[~e]r*t[y^]), n.; pl. Liberties
(-t[i^]z). [OE. liberte, F. libert['e], fr. L. libertas, fr.
liber free. See Liberal.]
1. The state of a free person; exemption from subjection to
the will of another claiming ownership of the person or
services; freedom; -- opposed to slavery, serfdom,
bondage, or subjection.

But ye . . . caused every man his servant, and every
man his handmaid whom he had set at liberty at their
pleasure, to return, and brought them into
subjection. --Jer. xxxiv.
16.

Delivered fro the bondage of corruption into the
glorious liberty of the sons of God. --Bible, 1551.
Rom. viii. 21.

2. Freedom from imprisonment, bonds, or other restraint upon
locomotion.

Being pent from liberty, as I am now. --Shak.

3. A privilege conferred by a superior power; permission
granted; leave; as, liberty given to a child to play, or
to a witness to leave a court, and the like.

4. Privilege; exemption; franchise; immunity enjoyed by
prescription or by grant; as, the liberties of the
commercial cities of Europe.

His majesty gave not an entire county to any; much
less did he grant . . . any extraordinary liberties.
--Sir J.
Davies.

5. The place within which certain immunities are enjoyed, or
jurisdiction is exercised. [Eng.]

Brought forth into some public or open place within
the liberty of the city, and there . . . burned.
--Fuller.

6. A certain amount of freedom; permission to go freely
within certain limits; also, the place or limits within
which such freedom is exercised; as, the liberties of a
prison.

7. A privilege or license in violation of the laws of
etiquette or propriety; as, to permit, or take, a liberty.

He was repeatedly provoked into striking those who
had taken liberties with him. --Macaulay.

8. The power of choice; freedom from necessity; freedom from
compulsion or constraint in willing.

The idea of liberty is the idea of a power in any
agent to do or forbear any particular action,
according to the determination or thought of the
mind, whereby either of them is preferred to the
other. --Locke.

This liberty of judgment did not of necessity lead
to lawlessness. --J. A.
Symonds.

9. (Manege) A curve or arch in a bit to afford room for the
tongue of the horse.

10. (Naut.) Leave of absence; permission to go on shore.


A Democracy decides which freedoms are advantageous and which are not, which is not exactly freedom.

Not to dispute the original point. I have always wondered how much freedom Iraqis have when we have 100,000+ troops there to ensure that Iraqis are free by our definition.

Rememeber the pre-reqs required for an effective insurgent force to exist. It requires the support of the people to hide and help them. How are we ever going to win against that?

the edit:

will take out the irrelevant parts tomorrow.

[Thanatoast]

Building a Democratic Police State in Iraq? Testing to see if that kind of thing will work here in the future? The illusion of freedom? Nah, I'm just being paranoid.

Or am I?See, I think that if anything, that's giving the administration too much credit. If they couldn't see why Iraqi's wouldn't want an occupying army in Iraq, why would they see the consequences of the policies they're pursuing domestically? Constitutionalizing inequality, keeping the public in a constant state of fear and skirting international law are all de facto agendas for the Bush administration. I don't think they see these things as dangerous. They can't see that the long term consequences of these policies are anger and instability. They only see them as opportunities to cement and grow their own power-base.

[Taft]

Can't be trusted. What plan are you talking about?
Yahoo is a conservative mouthpiece. Look, I have proof. There's a period, and this:


Solid.


Good work.

We need to get the word out: the elite internet media is hijacking our democracy by indoctrinating the masses with conservative ideals.

Taft

[pdham]

Unfortunately I have, as of late, tended to learn towards the looming catastrophe angle. Not as in sudden, unexpected catastrophe but a slow downhill grind to complete ruin. I think the truth is that there are too many individual groups within the borders of Iraq that will not, either because of the inherent power strucutre, or by their own doing, have a voice in the representitive governemnt. And even if they did, their aspirations do not even begin to line up with each other. What people seem to forget is that the borders of Iraq were, and are, a political action, not a reflection of an especially similar group of people. Dividing it up into multiple mini countries is an option, but because of ideological alliances that would be formed among other middle eastern countries and the newly created states, the situation would most likely be no less desperate. Plus I am sure our admin wouldn't allow it. Below is a link to a National Geographic article that discusses some of this stuff.

Ok, I think most of us would agree that Iraq is a problem and has a very dim, if any, light at the end of the tunnel. But I would be curious to here some of your own ideas as to how to go about creating a non-violent Iraq.


Paul

P.S. lets try not to let this thread become about media bias. Natl Geo (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/04/0423_030423_iraqcultures.html)

[solvs]

See, I think that if anything, that's giving the administration too much credit. If they couldn't see why Iraqi's wouldn't want an occupying army in Iraq, why would they see the consequences of the policies they're pursuing domestically? Constitutionalizing inequality, keeping the public in a constant state of fear and skirting international law are all de facto agendas for the Bush administration. I don't think they see these things as dangerous. They can't see that the long term consequences of these policies are anger and instability. They only see them as opportunities to cement and grow their own power-base.
I forgot the ;) in my post, but... yeah, pretty much. I keep hoping that when the administration goes too far, more people will wake up. But it hasn't happened yet.