why does macrumors lean liberal?

[gwuMACaddict]

just curious... wondering what about this forum's demographic shows such an obvious bias. the country was pretty evenly split in the last election, but you'd never know it from reading the boards here. any ideas?

(telling me- well the other half of the country are nothing but idiots isnt going to lead to a very intelligent discussion- so dont do that)

[OutThere]

Ok, some stereotypes here, but what the hell eh, don't get offended anyone. :)

I think that MacRumors leans liberal for a couple of reasons:
1) Most of these reasons are rooted in the fact that Macs are a giant minority, favored greatly by...
a) Artists and Designers
b) Video and Audio Professionals
so...It can be said (vaguely) that many of these people are creative, arty types, who are generally quite liberal.
2) I've also noticed from some of the threads that there is a large population of homosexual users on MacRumors, and, to use a couple more stereotypes and generalizations, homosexuals often fit into the creative arty position described above, and often are quite liberal.

Please note that if you are a member of one of the above groups, and don't fit my stereotypes, then don't get mad, I was just noting some common generalizations that are often true in the majority.

I also think that there are more conservative people here than most think, but they are afraid to come out as being so, because they perceive a gross majority of the users to be liberal.

That's my little analysis. :)

[Lyle]

just curious... wondering what about this forum's demographic shows such an obvious bias. the country was pretty evenly split in the last election, but you'd never know it from reading the boards here. any ideas?I am struggling to imagine a scenario where this discussion goes in a positive direction. :rolleyes:

I would say that Macintosh users in general tend to "lean liberal", and thus readers of this forum would tend to do the same. That of course begs the question of why Mac users tend to lean liberal, if you even accept that premise (I mean, Rush Limbaugh is a serious Mac afficianado and talks about Macs a lot on his show).

[gwuMACaddict]

That of course begs the question of why Mac users tend to lean liberal

uhhh... thats exactly what i asked :D


ok, well- not exactly... but a logical extenuation

[Hoef]

hat of course begs the question of why Mac users tend to lean liberal

Influx of foreign minds on this board ... that will set you guys straight :D

[Blue Velvet]

Influx of foreign minds on this board ... that will set you guys straight :D

Exactly... what many Americans tend to see as liberal & left-leaning is pretty centrist by UK standards.

[pseudobrit]

Maybe it has something to do with the high percentage of former Soviet Kommissars on the forums.

[Lyle]

Maybe it has something to do with the high percentage of former Soviet Kommissars on the forums.Well, I thought that went without saying. ;)

[IJ Reilly]

Exactly... what many Americans tend to see as liberal & left-leaning is pretty centrist by UK standards.

There you go, pay attention to Mr. Velvet. Of all the forums on MacRumors, this one seems to include the largest number of regular posters from outside the US. It might be instructive for Americans to learn where the political center resides in Europe and much of the rest of the world, and if they have to find out here, then so be it. Maybe then they'll understand why the US and Americans have become so remarkably unpopular around the world.

[Blue Velvet]

There you go, pay attention to Mr. Velvet.

That's Ms. Velvet to you... :)

[Diatribe]

That's Ms. Velvet to you... :)

Got proof? :D

[IJ Reilly]

That's Ms. Velvet to you... :)

A thousand pardons. I thought it might be presumptuous to call you by your given name. ;)

[skunk]

Exactly... what many Americans tend to see as liberal & left-leaning is pretty centrist by UK standards.
And, by extension, what many Americans see as right-wing is right off our scale....

[Blue Velvet]

Got proof? :D

Hmmm... last time I checked, anyway...

:)

(Clean) pic in profile.
Not anywhere in the Keira league, I'm afraid.

[IJ Reilly]

And, by extension, what many Americans see as right-wing is right off our scale....

Now, now... let's not go overboard. Doubtless you've got your share of far right-wing oiks. I've spent enough time in the UK to know that.

[Blue Velvet]

Now, now... let's not go overboard. Doubtless you've got your share of far right-wing oiks. I've spent enough time in the UK to know that.

The far-right in the UK exist but are a little different and have far fewer mass-media outlets for the dissemination of their views. My perception is, that their overt political views center around racism...

I guess the heady cocktail of guns, views on abortion & religion is something peculiarly American.

[Diatribe]

Hmmm... last time I checked, anyway...

:)

(Clean) pic in profile.
Not anywhere in the Keira league, I'm afraid.

She ain't all that y'know? :D

[Blue Velvet]

She ain't all that y'know? :D

Heh-heh.

That's sacrilege in these here parts... and besides, I guess you're on intimate terms with her?

80+clicks in one day, remember?

[Diatribe]

Heh-heh.

That's sacrilege in these here parts... and besides, I guess you're on intimate terms with her?

80+clicks in one day, remember?

Yeah, I'm prepared to meet the holy Keira protector :D
I think she's too skinny, but that's just me. She doesn't look bad by any means, I just don't think that she is that hot.
(Edesignuk doesn't really frequent the political boards anyway, so I guess I am pretty safe) ;)

[skunk]

(Edesignuk doesn't really frequent the political boards anyway, so I guess I am pretty safe) ;)
Look behind you... :p

[zimv20]

judging from poli forums alone, i can't come to any real conclusions about the political leanings of MR contributors.

i started posting here when the iraq war broke, and it was WAY heavy w/ war supporters. pretty much myself a p'brit, as i recall, questioning what was going on.

as the WMD reports were retracted, as the US body counts went up, the rhetoric started changing. some people, like LethalWolf and BTTM, were bold enough to publicly state that they had changed their minds on some issues.

over the past year or so, it's been about the same 8 "left-leaning" posters and a slew of "right-leaning" trolls. most of the latter are incapable of sustaining intelligent discourse and keeping their cool, and are either banned or stop posting. so it's hard for me to say if it's left-leaning or not, but i can understand why someone, at casual glance, would think that.

btw -- not all the right-leaning posters are trolls.

[IJ Reilly]

The far-right in the UK exist but are a little different and have far fewer mass-media outlets for the dissemination of their views. My perception is, that their overt political views center around racism...

I guess the heady cocktail of guns, views on abortion & religion is something peculiarly American.

Oh yes, I agree -- the right is more mainstream in the US. I was simply qualifying Skunk's remark that the right wing of US politics wouldn't even measure on the UK scale.

[edesignuk]

(Edesignuk doesn't really frequent the political boards anyway, so I guess I am pretty safe) ;)
Knock, knock.

[skunk]

If you've got anything to say, E, you'd better say it to Ms Velvet.... :D

[edesignuk]

If you've got anything to say, E, you'd better say it to Ms Velvet.... :D
Why's that? Blue's cool, and doesn't look too shabby herself in her profile pic :D...it's that Diatribe that's in trouble :p

[Diatribe]

Knock, knock.

Who's there? :rolleyes:
I'm not opening... whoever this is :D

[mactastic]

Why does 'Rat's beloved THR forum lean right? Why can't it lean left like everything else? I mean geez, you'd think the people that complain that this forum is so liberal have never been to one that's conservative by nature. Perhaps I should head over there and complain that they are too conservative and why aren't they more liberal...

[Dont Hurt Me]

Im surprised no one has said Mac users think different. Perhaps more of a live let live crowd then a live and let die crowd hum?

[skunk]

Nicely put, DHM.

[Thomas Veil]

i started posting here when the iraq war broke, and it was WAY heavy w/ war supporters. pretty much myself a p'brit, as i recall, questioning what was going on.

as the WMD reports were retracted, as the US body counts went up, the rhetoric started changing. some people, like LethalWolf and BTTM, were bold enough to publicly state that they had changed their minds on some issues.
Well, I think you're quite a bit correct, there. I have to admit that (though I wasn't with this forum at the time the Iraq was broke out) I was in favor of the war. I'd originally been suspicious of Bush, but went along with things based on Colin Powell's assertions at the U.N. Now I know what a gullible dummy I was. So you can count me among the mea culpa folks.


over the past year or so, it's been about the same 8 "left-leaning" posters and a slew of "right-leaning" trolls.
I can just see our slogan now: "The few. The proud. The eight."

[skunk]

You know who you are...

[skunk]

...and we know where you live.

[superninjagoat]

Sociologically speaking, I see three main reasons for the liberal slant of MacRumors. For the short version, see the last line of this post.

First, as was mentioned before, creatives are demographically more likely to be liberal (by U.S. standards), as are Europeans (again, by U.S. standards).

Building on this idea is the second reason. People of a certain slant tend to seek out other like-minded people that reinforce their perceptions of reality. People also disassociate with those who hold different morays and morals. The more divisive the subject, the more this phenomenon becomes apparent. So, a slight disparity in liberal/conservative world-views is magnified during the tense Iraq/WMD/election combo of the past few months.

Related example: A couple of Mac aficionados get together for MacRumors, and other Mac lovers show up to populate this forum. Although we get a few "WINDOWS RULES" posters from time to time, the vast majority of us hold the Macintosh in high regards. Those who don't like Macs go on their merry way. This is one of the basic ways social groups form.

It is this community spirit that leads to the third reason I see. Once a clear majority is seen, others do not want to appear contrary to the group. No one wants to be ostracized from the larger group of Mac users because of an unrelated issue (politics).

After all, the first and foremost reason to be at MacRumors is the Macintosh. Our community is held together by that fact.

Finally, people who perceive themselves to be downtrodden, oppressed, underdogs or in some way wronged (as was the case with liberals in the U.S. after the 2000 election (What ever happened to Gore? Is he sitting around in his underwear with Kerry smoking cigars and singing another chorus of "We told you so, America?" -- See, there's my liberal slant :) ).

Now, the short version. Pinko Mac users post because they're bitter. Conservatives back off from these wild-eyed, frothy mouthed dingos for fear that their future tech questions will go unanswered. Kerry drinks some ketchup, gives the American electorate the finger and laughs.

[Blue Velvet]

...Now, the short version. Pinko Mac users post because they're bitter. Conservatives back off from these wild-eyed, frothy mouthed dingos for fear that their future tech questions will go unanswered. Kerry drinks some ketchup, gives the American electorate the finger and laughs.

Hilarious... :D

(esp. the dingos)

[superninjagoat]

Hilarious... :D

(esp. the dingos)

Thanks. I read what I had written and realized that I take myself WAY to seriously some times. So I lightened it up a bit.

And if a all Mac users had to be averaged into one animal (furry? plushy? different thread for this post?) I think the dingo has to be it.

[Blue Velvet]

And if a all Mac users had to be averaged into one animal (furry? plushy? different thread for this post?) I think the dingo has to be it.

Dingos are rabid nasssty things that yip in the night...

How can you forget Meryl Streep's tortured cry?
"A dingo's got my baaabyyyy!"

[superninjagoat]

Dingos are rabid nasssty things that yip in the night...
Does this describe how you feel when using Windows? It sums it up for me. :)


How can you forget Meryl Streep's tortured cry?
"A dingo's got my baaabyyyy!"

te hee hee. that's all I could think of when I read your reply.

[3rdpath]

hmmm, i've always felt MR posters behaved more like dingo-eating babies...

why is it if you're not a republican you're a far-right liberal( whatever the heck that is...)? i think the media's constant need to label views as one extreme or the other has limited the ability to truly debate the real issues.

and let me state i was against the war from the get-go. it's hard being right all the time but its a burden i've learned to live with.... ;)

[skunk]

People also disassociate with those who hold different morays and morals.
I would certainly keep away from anybody holding a moray. "Mores" I can handle, vicious eels are quite another thing...

:)

[3rdpath]

I would certainly keep away from anybody holding a moray. "Mores" I can handle, vicious eels are quite another thing...

:)

<singing>

"stick your hand in a crack
and your hand don't come back...that's a moray"

</singing>

sorry, diver humor...

[skunk]

I like that. :D

[zimv20]

and your hand don't come back...that's a moray"

<john cleese>
go to the back!
</john cleese>

[pseudobrit]

judging from poli forums alone, i can't come to any real conclusions about the political leanings of MR contributors.

i started posting here when the iraq war broke, and it was WAY heavy w/ war supporters. pretty much myself a p'brit, as i recall, questioning what was going on.

There are quite a number of right-leaning forum members but they seem to stay out of the political forums except when they're going to war or winning an election.

I do remember the Iraq War Era and it was quite tempestuous in here to say the least. It was very tough to peacefully hold any skeptical viewpoint without being beaten down by the "America, ****, yeah!" crowd in some not-so-polite language.

Perhaps the more... aggressive members are feeling a little stupid after all we whiny hippie liberal ***** scum turned out to be more than correct about the whole Iraq quagmire. I wasn't skeptical enough. I figured we'd find a trivial amount of old WMD stores.

Oh, well, at least it's been awhile since I've heard the "if you don't like it, leave, commie!" sentiment. Oddly enough, I'm taking them up on it.

[IJ Reilly]

Oh, well, at least it's been awhile since I've heard the "if you don't like it, leave, commie!" sentiment. Oddly enough, I'm taking them up on it.

Two weeks, at least. Say, is that official?

[solvs]

why is it if you're not a republican you're a far-right liberal( whatever the heck that is...)? i think the media's constant need to label views as one extreme or the other has limited the ability to truly debate the real issues.
Liberals are Left, but yeah, I get yer drift.

Don't get me started on the media. I think Jon Stewart put it best when he said pundits yelling at each other isn't real news (and this coming from a guy who follows puppets making prank phone calls, he makes a good point). Couldn't help but laugh when he told them "you're hurting America". News has become a business and infotainment. People don't want to know what's going on. They want to believe the lies, and remain blissfully ignorant (not stupid... ignorant = uninformed), yet they will defend their ignorance viciously. It is only helped by the media, either way, and both sides tend to cry that the other side is out to get them, even if they're just reporting the truth. There is some Liberal bias, but there is just as much (if not more, sometimes) Conservative bias.

For the record, I'm not a Liberal. I just can't stand the Bush administration, and their deception. At best, they are incompetant. At worst, using the patriotism and faith of good people to further their own agendas, which are often pretty much exactly the opposite. Promise you Heaven, while leading you into Hell. And people are falling for it, just like they do every other time this happens. Read your history, it happens quite a bit.

Socially, I suppose I agree with some of the Liberals ideals. I don't believe I have the right to tell a woman what to do with her body, nor who people should be allowed to love. And God should not be part of the Government, all that tends to do is corrupt both. Of course, a real Republican would agree with that as well, but nowadays that party has been taken over by a very vocal minority. And those in the middle tend not to care enough to lean enough to the other side, despite real Democrats being more in line with their beliefs. Mostly because a vocal minority has taken over that party as well, so some people think they're all like that. In the Ultra-Conservative world, everything is black and white, there is no gray. As Bill Maher says, "I would be a Republican if only they would".

So I don't really align myself with a party. I don't like labels. I only care about what's right, but there are so many gray areas, it's not always easy to know. A good candidate would tell you that, but they are so worried about pleasing John Q or their own selfishness, they forget about the greater good. Just because I think Bush has gone too far, and is doing everything wrong, that doesn't automatically make me a Liberal. Or unAmerican, or against the troops, or for terrorists. I know people over there in Iraq. I'm not easily offended, but don't question my patriotism while you're pi$$ing on the Bill of Rights and Geneva convention. And sending our soldiers to their deaths, while the real terrorist who attacked us is still out there, gaining more support.

But the current administration, and it's neo-con pundit supporters, have a you're with me or your against me attitude. Which is kind-of a put off. Considering this is still America, you should be allowed to criticize those in charge when you feel like they are making mistakes. I did it with Clinton, I'm doing it with Bush, and I'll do it to the next person if they make stupid mistakes or take things too far. Sorry for the long post, but why am I a Liberal just because I think people should be holding Bush and his ilk responsible for their mistakes instead of defending them just because they're "on my side"? Just goes to prove that whole, with me or against me thing.

Not to say I wouldn't vote for a Conservative. McCain 2008! If it's going to be a Republican, I'd rather they not suck!

[Sun Baked]

Not to say I wouldn't vote for a Conservative. McCain 2008! If it's going to be a Republican, I'd rather they not suck!That's if he can be talked into running, of course McCain's brand of ethics would probably be a shock to both parties and the public.

[pseudobrit]

Two weeks, at least. Say, is that official?

Going North? I've not yet begun the process. But I'm dead set on it. I just need a few months to prepare before filing.

I'm waiting to hear the "have fun paying all those taxes, scum!" I'll simply respond with "have fun paying for healthcare, idiot!"

[Durandal7]

There are quite a number of right-leaning forum members but they seem to stay out of the political forums except when they're going to war or winning an election.

A silent majority?

I would say that zimv20 is right. There are a handful of persistent posters in this forum that happen to be liberal.

[IJ Reilly]

Going North? I've not yet begun the process. But I'm dead set on it. I just need a few months to prepare before filing.

You'll have to keep us posted on this process, and your experiences as an immigrant, assuming you go through with it. (I don't doubt your word, but many more think about these things seriously than actually take the plunge.)

[pseudobrit]

You'll have to keep us posted on this process, and your experiences as an immigrant, assuming you go through with it. (I don't doubt your word, but many more think about these things seriously than actually take the plunge.)

:) I'm trying to decide on a target area. Toronto, Ottawa... or take a little longer while I get fluent in French and head for Quebec... hmm.

[skunk]

With global warming coming along nicely, England's getting more suitable for you warm weather wusses every day...

[Thanatoast]

With global warming coming along nicely, England's getting more suitable for you warm weather wusses every day...
uh-oh. What I heard is that if global warming continues, the ice caps melt. If the ice caps melt, a lot of fresh water gets dumped into the North Atlantic. If this fresh water disrupts the ocean currents that currently bring warm water north, Europe's warm weather goes away and England begins to look like Siberia. :eek:

[skunk]

Don't be such a wet blanket! There'll be a small window of opportunity while the ice cap hasn't melted.

[pseudobrit]

With global warming coming along nicely, England's getting more suitable for you warm weather wusses every day...
Don't be such a wet blanket! There'll be a small window of opportunity while the ice cap hasn't melted.

One word: Canada.

You lot already kinda own it, too.

[solvs]

That's if he can be talked into running, of course McCain's brand of ethics would probably be a shock to both parties and the public.
The fact that he has ethics puts him above the rest. If Conservatives won't vote for him over people like Bush, Democrats should. I hope he runs again, and I hope he wins. Better him than someone like Frist.

As for those going to Canada, I don't blame you. But I plan on staying here... unless it gets really bad. I like America, I just don't like the current Government and where it's trying to take us. I'm sure the Neo-Cons will go too far, and then we'll swing back to the other side. Then we'll all complain as the Liberals try to take it too far.

You think it's hard to be a Liberal right now, try being a Moderate.

[Awimoway]

The fact that he has ethics puts him above the rest. If Conservatives won't vote for him over people like Bush, Democrats should. I hope he runs again, and I hope he wins. Better him than someone like Frist.

As for those going to Canada, I don't blame you. But I plan on staying here... unless it gets really bad. I like America, I just don't like the current Government and where it's trying to take us. I'm sure the Neo-Cons will go too far, and then we'll swing back to the other side. Then we'll all complain as the Liberals try to take it too far.

You think it's hard to be a Liberal right now, try being a Moderate.

McCain is too loyal to his own party for his own good. The GOP machine will not stand for him winning because he isn't enough of a corporate stooge (and I don't think he needs to be persuaded to run -- he came close to winning the nomination once already), and McCain's too stubborn/proud/blindly loyal to consider running as a third-party candidate.

As for moving to Canada... I desperately, desperately want to get off this sinking ship. But I can't. I just can't quit. I can't imagine what I'd say to people when I got to Canada (or the Netherlands, Britain, New Zealand or anywhere else I've dreamt of moving to): "America was getting too fascist, so I left, ensuring it would be even more fascist." Oh yeah, they'll be really glad to see me. :rolleyes:

America may be a sinking ship, but as an unrivaled military superpower and formiddable economic power, it can only drag the rest of the world down with it. I don't see the world accepting American liberals with open arms. They'd rather we stay and try to fight this thing, change some minds, and get America on a path to responsible environmental policy and a foreign policy that builds less bombs and more bridges.

I also think that in ten to twenty years people who advocated leaving America after the 2004 election will become the new punching bag for the right -- anyone who even mentions a wistful thought of leaving now will be held up then as evil, communistic, loathsome and despicable. Maybe I shouldn't take the right's bait and worry about something so trivial and unjustified, but I don't want to give them more fuel with which to distract Americans from the real issues.

[Awimoway]

In fact, my last post gets me thinking...

Maybe we've got it all wrong. Instead of fleeing America and making it more right-wing, maybe we should start recruiting our foreign friends to become American citizens and turn back the imbalance of power.

[solvs]

In fact, my last post gets me thinking...

Maybe we've got it all wrong. Instead of fleeing America and making it more right-wing, maybe we should start recruiting our foreign friends to become American citizens and turn back the imbalance of power.
Why not, it seems to be working for the GOP. They have a lot of support from Latinos, and even Arabs (yes, Arabs... you'd be surprised). But how would we get them to want to come here? Considering how many of them hate us now.

Well, 51% of us.

[Xtremehkr]

MacRumors, or those who visit MacRumors. I think the website as an entity goes out of its way to make things bi-partisan.

/More on that thought to come.

[skunk]

MR simply reflects a balance of the thoughtful. We should not confuse the election preferences of US voters with the philosophical preferences of MR posters. Much of the Bush vote came from "gut feelings" and targeted emotional response: once analysis is applied, these things tend to lose their power. Many people of any persuasion will be turned off by the dangerous excesses and posturing of this Administration. Besides, those who vent their gut feelings too vehemently here tend to be "disappeared"... ;)

[takao]

In fact, my last post gets me thinking...

Maybe we've got it all wrong. Instead of fleeing America and making it more right-wing, maybe we should start recruiting our foreign friends to become American citizens and turn back the imbalance of power.

interesting but if it works on short time scale is highly doubtable ;)

i personally wouldn't vote for democrats either ..and i still have to do some voting here (our conservatives screw up the education system at the moment... together with other things...)... and perhaps make a vacation there first ;)

perhaps in 7-10 years ...

[Thomas Veil]

As for moving to Canada... I desperately, desperately want to get off this sinking ship. But I can't. I just can't quit. I can't imagine what I'd say to people when I got to Canada (or the Netherlands, Britain, New Zealand or anywhere else I've dreamt of moving to): "America was getting too fascist, so I left, ensuring it would be even more fascist." Oh yeah, they'll be really glad to see me. :rolleyes:
Don't count on that. Do you think Germans who fled their homeland just before the Nazi party took over would be unwelcome in other parts of the world? On the contrary, you'd probably be viewed sympathetically, as would any refugee.

[Daveway]

Hmmm... last time I checked, anyway...

:)

(Clean) pic in profile.
Not anywhere in the Keira league, I'm afraid.

(caugh) i'm always turned on by a woman mac user.. haha just kiddin'. I'm glad to see women users at MR.

I think the reason many are liberal here is because of the arty and homo people but also with the fact that our hero, Steve Jobs, is very democratic and liberal. Lets not forget he funds the democrats. Remember Al Gore?

[superninjagoat]

I would certainly keep away from anybody holding a moray. "Mores" I can handle, vicious eels are quite another thing...

:)

After reading your post, I though about editing mine; but then I thought, no. It's just too damn funny. lol

[blackfox]

Happy New Year's.

I have just returned from my much needed-vacation.

As to topic,

If wanting to constructively discuss an issue of perceived importance is left-leaning, well I raise my hand.

I am too tired to continue...

Happy '05

[mactastic]

Welcome back BF. Hope you had a relaxing vacation.

[blackfox]

Welcome back BF. Hope you had a relaxing vacation.
Thanks. I did my best impression of Yeltsin on "free-day" at the local Vodka factory. Uggh. It was fun, though...

As to topic,

I do not see anything partisan/ideological about questioning/analyzing issues that seem to be of importance. Traditionally Liberalism has been about reform and progress, which imply a concentration on those things which seem the most broken.

In an age where the average citizen is less apt to become involved with issues of govenance or civics, and where the Media gives anemic and somewhat inaccurate analysis of important issues, it would seem that forums like this one are an important outlet for understanding an issue through discussion.

While some of us are certainly left-leaning ideologically (by US standards), I think it is a mistake to look at these threads and their contributions as an ideological battle of Left vs Right. I believe it is merely an attempt to ascertain possible solutions to pressing problems and concurrently to raise general political awareness.

I do not think that the pursuit of truth or knowledge is a partisan issue.

It has always seemed to me that it is more important to contribute to a debate with intelligent analysis and criticism to aid in understanding complex issues, than to concentrate on a purely ideological solution.

The best members of this board (imo) all make well-argued and intelligent points, which should be considered, regardless of whether you agree with the perceived politics behind their posts. To dismiss opinions merely as "left" is to miss the point and to miss out.

Unfortunately, we seem to have fewer conservative posters who are willing or able to argue their cases in the way that the "lefties" here do. I am not sure why. Some perhaps feel overwhelmed by the barrage of questions leveled at their positions, but it is hard to deny that this encourages reflection, which at least for me is the point. The conservative posters who do put in effort(s) which extend above pure ideology or hyperbole are well-regarded and respected, if not always agreed with.

I find this forum to be a tremendous educational tool on the issues, but like many things, it is dependent on what you choose to put in and to take from.

For my part, I am considerably centrist. The fact that I disagree with an Administration who is Republican does not make me a Liberal, it just make me a concerned citizen, at least imo.

Think as you will. There are some astute and intelligent minds on this board, and I appreciate that considerably.

[MOFS]

The far-right in the UK exist but are a little different and have far fewer mass-media outlets for the dissemination of their views. My perception is, that their overt political views center around racism...

I guess the heady cocktail of guns, views on abortion & religion is something peculiarly American.

I agree with ya there, BV. If any of you Americans want to see a prime example of the differences between European (well...British) politics and American, just compare the Liberal Democrats (British) to the "liberal" Demcrats (USA):

War
Lib Dems ANTI!!! Democrats seem for

Politic placement
Lib Dems Left-centre Democrats centre

Party Leader/ candidate
Charles Kennedy cuddly funny person (very popular with a lot of people despite being leader of 3rd party!) :p
John Kerry "he's a bit boring..."

PS: nice photo, Ms Blue Velvet. Maybe I should saunter down souff for a holiday... ;)

[Blue Velvet]

Maybe I should saunter down souff for a holiday... ;)

I can't wait...

[SPG]

Unfortunately, we seem to have fewer conservative posters who are willing or able to argue their cases in the way that the "lefties" here do. I am not sure why.
Perhaps because the current administration's policies are indefensible?

Seriously though, beyond the "Macs are used by artists and artists are liberal" thing, the PC is the choice of the mainstream. Don't know or care about computers? Just want the same thing as everyone else? Probably won't wind up with a Mac.
I like to believe that the Mac is the weapon of choice of the free thinking set. Besides the artists, the people who really do think for themselves and aren't content to just do what everybody else always does. Amongst the professional snowboard crowd Macs have a better than 90% market share...a very small demographic to be sure, but not your usual group of people either.

[jefhatfield]

the internet, as witnessed by the hoards of howard dean supporters online, is a liberal medium to say the least

now for a conservative medium, look to talk radio which is just right of center

in either case i would not call the internet far left or talk radio far right :)

[Thomas Veil]

Actually, smart use of the internet has been credited with much of the success of the neo-cons. You don't have to look too far to find right wing wackos on the internet.

Howard Dean is merely one of the first liberals to discover the power of the internet.

I certainly won't argue your point about talk radio, however.

[jefhatfield]

Actually, smart use of the internet has been credited with much of the success of the neo-cons. You don't have to look too far to find right wing wackos on the internet.

Howard Dean is merely one of the first liberals to discover the power of the internet.

I certainly won't argue your point about talk radio, however.

i actually have tremendous respect for the old conservatives, even though i may not agree with a lot of their agenda...but for the most part, they were big believers in education or at the very least learning how to cleverly debate with liberals by understanding every nook and cranny of the liberal agenda

today's neo-conservatives for the most part are idealists who shun education and trying to understand the other side...even the age old practice of debate is lost on them while they think they can bulldozer their point of view

the neo cons were so smug in 80, 84, and 88 that they got hit broadside in 92 and 96 when they underestimated that liberals could actually be liberal and fiscally conservative/responsible

unfortunately, the liberals are now in the back seat and if someone had said in the late 90s that bush jr would go on to win 2000 and 2004, i would have not believed it...the neo cons uneducated bulldozer approach worked but as history repeats itself, it will backfire again

as a democrat, my fear is that conservatives will wisen up, become moderate, become educated, and take on the persona of an all inclusive george f will type and then go on to dominate the white house for a 20 year stretch

[Dont Hurt Me]

I dont see moderation coming, both partys are being ran by the extreme. Republicans far right, Demo's left and America is split almost 50-50 on these two parties. I dont see Moderates gaining ground in either iam sad to say.

[blackfox]

I dont see moderation coming, both partys are being ran by the extreme. Republicans far right, Demo's left and America is split almost 50-50 on these two parties. I dont see Moderates gaining ground in either iam sad to say.
Are you looking at the same Democrats I am? I don't mean to be contentious on a Sunday morning, but I don't see the Left being extreme at the moment.

Please explain.

[skunk]

Since from a European point of view both parties are somewhat to the right of Attila the Hun, this "extreme left" business makes little sense to me.

[Dont Hurt Me]

Are you looking at the same Democrats I am? I don't mean to be contentious on a Sunday morning, but I don't see the Left being extreme at the moment.

Please explain.well to middle America and the Southeast. Remember we just had Kerry run for president and he was a far left one you have to admit then look at the primaries any moderate was ran out of of town ask Lieberman. The Democrats arent pro God,arent pro Gun,and arent pro Nascar. Thats called extreme left were i now live :eek:
Then with George and God talks to me and Rice a Yesman if you will and Bible thumper association behind the party its ran and funded by the Far right.

[takao]

Since from a European point of view both parties are somewhat to the right of Attila the Hun, this "extreme left" business makes little sense to me.

LOL... attila the hun....





...the real sad thing is that i would have to agree

[zimv20]

Remember we just had Kerry run for president and he was a far left one you have to admit then look at the primaries
what did it for you? his proposed tax cuts or his bellicose campaigning?

[relimw]

In fact, my last post gets me thinking...

Maybe we've got it all wrong. Instead of fleeing America and making it more right-wing, maybe we should start recruiting our foreign friends to become American citizens and turn back the imbalance of power.

I know! I know! Let's force them to all be Church of England members. It sure worked in the old days!

Oh, wait, maybe we'll drive all the conservatives out of Europe and they'll become crackpot nations who dream up the Hitlers, the Stalinists and the Mussolinis of the world.

Naw, that'd never happen again would it?

[skunk]

???? :confused:

I'm afraid you'll have to be slightly less subtle: I haven't a clue what you're on about.

[Dont Hurt Me]

what did it for you? his proposed tax cuts or his bellicose campaigning?
bellicose campaigning :D

[blackfox]

I know! I know! Let's force them to all be Church of England members. It sure worked in the old days!

Oh, wait, maybe we'll drive all the conservatives out of Europe and they'll become crackpot nations who dream up the Hitlers, the Stalinists and the Mussolinis of the world.

Naw, that'd never happen again would it?
I am not sure what you are on about either...but if you are implying that an exodus of conservatives from Europe would create the breeding-ground for despots such as you mention, I would remind you that Hitler and Mussolini were Fascists and Nationalists, which is a right-wing extreme, not a left-wing one. Stalin is not European, and is a far-cry away from Marx or Lenin, as he just found the ideology useful as a means to power.

In any case, care to decipher what you meant mate?

[jefhatfield]

Are you looking at the same Democrats I am? I don't mean to be contentious on a Sunday morning, but I don't see the Left being extreme at the moment.

Please explain.

and in my neck of the woods, the gop, in california, is controlled by the moderates via arnold the terminator

he not only terminated the democrats, but he obliterated and crushed the social conservatives in california...and the social conservatives hate arnold more than the democrats...and i wouldn't even say that the democrats hate arnold since he seems a lot like a democrat more than a republican

like politics has been for decades, the win comes from the fight in the middle...that's where the majority is and majority wins every time

[IJ Reilly]

and in my neck of the woods, the gop, in california, is controlled by the moderates via arnold the terminator

he not only terminated the democrats, but he obliterated and crushed the social conservatives in california...and the social conservatives hate arnold more than the democrats...and i wouldn't even say that the democrats hate arnold since he seems a lot like a democrat more than a republican

like politics has been for decades, the win comes from the fight in the middle...that's where the majority is and majority wins every time

IMO, it is way too soon to say whether any of this is a fact. The govenator is in the process of burying himself in a huge credibility pit of his own making. He has succeeded at very little to date, far too little to say that he's "terminated" anybody, except perhaps himself.

[Xtremehkr]

I agree, Ahnolds PR team can't keep it up for too much longer. All he is doing is borrowing money like the President has been. He's taking "special interest" money like no other despite his claims and acting like a staunch conservative by refusing to consider taxes of any kind.

The budget has increased by 8 Billion on top of that. Ahnolds a fake, he's not doing as well in real life.

[mactastic]

The Democrats aren't being led by the exteme left, just the extremely greedy center left.

[IJ Reilly]

I agree, Ahnolds PR team can't keep it up for too much longer. All he is doing is borrowing money like the President has been. He's taking "special interest" money like no other despite his claims and acting like a staunch conservative by refusing to consider taxes of any kind.

The budget has increased by 8 Billion on top of that. Ahnolds a fake, he's not doing as well in real life.

The worst part about it is, despite the fact that I don't particularly like the man and didn't vote for him, I hoped he'd succeed where his predecessors had failed. This state is in desperate need of being governed, and if it takes an outsider with star power to restore order, then so be it. But instead, he's basically reneged on every major pledge he's made, from the taking of special interest money to the budget. I'm beginning to think he's just our "acting governor."

Note to Republicans: Good luck getting this guy into the national spotlight. Here in California, he's already carrying more baggage than a Pullman porter.

[zimv20]

Pullman porter.
i don't know what you're on about here, but i like the alliteration.

[mactastic]

His popularity level is still sky-high here though. The public is still impressed with him by and large, although we'll see what happens after his budget starts getting talked about.

[Xtremehkr]

I think Arnold has already started to consider being President, which automatically makes hard political decisions something to avoid should he put a foot wrong. Unless of course, he were brave and had some confidence in what he was doing. So rather than get his hands dirty trying to make anything better in California he is just going to use it to improve his image.

The media are treating Arnold with kid gloves too. He is getting an easy ride compared to Jesse Ventura.

But that is apart of California I guess, image is everything. Though that is not just a local thing anymore it seems.

[relimw]

I think Arnold has already started to consider being President, which automatically makes hard political decisions something to avoid should he put a foot wrong.

Umm, Arnold can't be President. He wasn't born here.

[Rower_CPU]

Umm, Arnold can't be President. He wasn't born here.

Some people are trying to change that (http://amendforarnold.com/).

[solvs]

I think a lot of people thought he was going to be like Jesse Ventura. People are still hoping, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen. We're just so fed up with all the garbage from both sides. The Dems are loosing it as well, and you'd think they'd learn from their lessons. Up here, I didn't like Rossi, but I don't really trust Gregoire either. She is a lot like Gray was down there.

Meanwhile, neither party sees what gold they have in Moderates like McCain or Dean. Say what you want about Howard Dean, but he was very fiscally responsible in his own state. And very passionate about his beliefs, that he actually :gasp: believes in, not just says to get votes. Some of us actually like passion (Clinton, before the Monica thing).

But the left swings left, the right swings right, and those of us in the middle look to the moderates, knowing their own parties do not support them enough.

[relimw]

In any case, care to decipher what you meant mate?

Hmm, I had a really good response to this, and then mozilla started acting goofy on me and wouldn't let me post... I'll try to remember the gist of what I was going to post.

I was hoping that you could make the leap and understand that dictators of whatever variety (left or right), are caused in part by cultural and demographic shifts. That by surpressing one group over another, you create the shift that allows crackpot dictators to come to power. For instance, during the Puritian years, a great number of them fled England and came to settle in what is now the US. There by creating a cultural shift.

[blackfox]

Hmm, I had a really good response to this, and then mozilla started acting goofy on me and wouldn't let me post... I'll try to remember the gist of what I was going to post.

I was hoping that you could make the leap and understand that dictators of whatever variety (left or right), are caused in part by cultural and demographic shifts. That by surpressing one group over another, you create the shift that allows crackpot dictators to come to power. For instance, during the Puritian years, a great number of them fled England and came to settle in what is now the US. There by creating a cultural shift.

I am not sure what you mean. Many things are caused by demographic/cultural shifts, including Democracy, Nationalism, Fanaticism and the creation of Despots. This is fairly obvious.

If, as you say, one group is being suppressed creates a shift that allows dictators to come to power, then who is doing the suppressing in the first place? Would it not be accurate to say that such a policy allows for the continuation of Authoritarian modes of government, more that the creation of one? I mean, insofar as one assuming that said oppressed group gains power and freedom through political, military or demographic means, this will probably first lead to anarchy/chaos, with a chance of this group consolidating their power as an Authoritarian government.

What is the point of bringing up immigration to America, btw. Was it an attempt to clarify the similar statement in your previous post? Of course such an action caused a reaction, but not one necessarily relevant to your main argument.

Sorry Mozilla is making your life difficult.

[Xtremehkr]

The Puritans who "fled" England to come to the US were not a majority of the settlers. There is also some doubt about the story concerning all of the religious persecution. More likely it was an opportunity to expand their religion, that's what Zinn suggests and he provides some good reasons as to why that is likely.

The Puritans arrived with wealth, came upon an Indian settlement wiped out by influenza, called it divine providence and survived by the crops left behind. They were slightly more civilised towards the natives but did basically the same things. Despite getting lost, there were charts on the ship which suggest that story may not have been true either.

Puritan may be a misnomer as well, or maybe it only applies in how they chose to interperet religion. They traded rum and drinking was not a social taboo at all.

The whole "religious persecution" thing sounds like a motivator to get people to move and provide bodies for the new settlement.

The majority of settlers were people who came for the opportunities that existed. Most as indentured labor who acquired ridiculous debt for the voyage over.

[Les Kern]

Mac users tend to lean liberal, if you even accept that premise (I mean, Rush Limbaugh is a serious Mac afficianado and talks about Macs a lot on his show).

No, no, no. It isn't indicated by what computer, what newspaper they read, what they think of Bush. I would submit that before dear patriots like Limbaugh himself made the word "liberal" a moniker for "commie", that in core belief most everyone is, ehem, liberal. But why call it liberal? Let's say "progressive". It's more accurate anyway. Those who regard such "liberal" ideals as naive today should remember that America in the twentieth century was build on liberal policy, from the Progressive Era through the New Deal, the Fair Deal, the GI Bill, and the Great Society. The modern economy--a private enterprise system that relies on government safeguards against depression and extreme poverty--is the legacy of liberal leadership from Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson to Franklin D. Roosevelt and Lyndon B. Johnson. (And more recently Bill Clinton, who erased Republican deficits that were sending the economy into a spiral of recession and began to pay down the national debt) Liberal policies made America the freest, wealthiest, most successful, and most powerful nation in human history. Conservatism in power always threatens to undo the national progress, and is almost always frustrated by the innate decency and democratic instincts of the American people. Bottom line: We take care of our own. A conservative survival-of-the-fittest says "good luck to you".

[IJ Reilly]

i don't know what you're on about here, but i like the alliteration.

Which part don't you get, California politics or the Pullman porter reference?

[kettle]

Now, now... let's not go overboard. Doubtless you've got your share of far right-wing oiks. I've spent enough time in the UK to know that.

I think what covers it is that anyone on MRs with a right leaning is automatically an "oik" and "racist", and anyone who has a left leaning can do no wrong.

That is just the way this site is, can't change it, the lefty "oiks" just won't stand for it. :rolleyes:

remember, you're a friend of card carrying commies or you're a "neo"-whatever racist bigoted sexist ageist homophobic ignorant ill educated republican sympathising SUV driving gun toting redneck with no moral gauge of right and wrong.

did I miss any...?

oh yeah, never return to a lighted firework.

[IJ Reilly]

Obviously, this is not what I was saying. If you are going to respond to months-old posts, the very least you could do is respond within the context of the discussion. Otherwise, you will be classified as a troll -- and on this board at least, trolls get themselves banned in short order.

[zimv20]

the Pullman porter reference?
it was that one. but i get it now.

[pseudobrit]

I think what covers it is that anyone on MRs with a right leaning is automatically an "oik" and "racist", and anyone who has a left leaning can do no wrong.

That is just the way this site is, can't change it, the lefty "oiks" just won't stand for it. :rolleyes:

remember, you're a friend of card carrying commies or you're a "neo"-whatever racist bigoted sexist ageist homophobic ignorant ill educated republican sympathising SUV driving gun toting redneck with no moral gauge of right and wrong.

did I miss any...?

oh yeah, never return to a lighted firework.

Thanks again for another turd.

Go the hell away, please, troll.

(I can't help but feel as though I should have used one of the commas before "turd")

[Xtremehkr]

No, no, no. It isn't indicated by what computer, what newspaper they read, what they think of Bush. I would submit that before dear patriots like Limbaugh himself made the word "liberal" a moniker for "commie", that in core belief most everyone is, ehem, liberal. But why call it liberal? Let's say "progressive". It's more accurate anyway. Those who regard such "liberal" ideals as naive today should remember that America in the twentieth century was build on liberal policy, from the Progressive Era through the New Deal, the Fair Deal, the GI Bill, and the Great Society. The modern economy--a private enterprise system that relies on government safeguards against depression and extreme poverty--is the legacy of liberal leadership from Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson to Franklin D. Roosevelt and Lyndon B. Johnson. (And more recently Bill Clinton, who erased Republican deficits that were sending the economy into a spiral of recession and began to pay down the national debt) Liberal policies made America the freest, wealthiest, most successful, and most powerful nation in human history. Conservatism in power always threatens to undo the national progress, and is almost always frustrated by the innate decency and democratic instincts of the American people. Bottom line: We take care of our own. A conservative survival-of-the-fittest says "good luck to you".

I like your optimism, but don't underestimate the power of propaganda, if it didn't work there would be no advertising industry. The progressive era was a triumph, but there was a time before that era. Nothing should be taken for granted and I am a little disappointed in the Democrats of the last 25 years. Hopefully this will make them stronger in years to come.

[solvs]

I think what covers it is that anyone on MRs with a right leaning is automatically an "oik" and "racist", and anyone who has a left leaning can do no wrong.
Though I'm sure some people do that, I'd wouldn't say it was a vast conspiracy. DesertRat might disagree with such a blanket statement. ;) Plus, I've never heard anyone use the term "oik". I think we just hate the BS, and right now the Neo-cons are shoveling the most of it. Not Republicans, Neo-cons. Big difference.

Bottom line: We take care of our own. A conservative survival-of-the-fittest says "good luck to you".
And see, I never got that about the neo-cons. Republicans are supposed to be comprised of Christians, and the Christian belief system. Which is the exact opposite of survival of the fittest, and preaches peace above all else. But then again, the Crusaders called themselves Christian, and the terrorists call themselves Islamic, so I guess you could just say they were missing the point. Pick and choose, wrap your self in a flag or a religion and people will follow you to Hell because they want to believe. Meanwhile those evil, baby-killing, gay-loving, filth mongering Liberals are preaching love and tolerance, taking care of your weakest, poorest, sickest, fellow man, and of God's green Earth. Jesus was nothing like that. :rolleyes:

I'm sure Jesus was all about the rich getting richer and taking advantage of the poor getting poorer and polluting the Earth as much as you want and waging wars over oil... as long as the upper class get tax cuts and 2 people who love each other can't get married because of a vague passage in Leviticus. As a McCain supporter I'm pleased to know he is pro-enviroment, anti-Big Business, and fiscally conservative... among other things. Which is more than I can say for a couple of hippy tree huggers who drive SUVs, while sipping their latte's, and are basically all around hypocrites.

See, not all of us are extremists either way.

[Lyle]

I am struggling to imagine a scenario where this discussion goes in a positive direction. :rolleyes:Don't I get bonus points for making this prediction?

[skunk]

Don't I get bonus points for making this prediction?
Godwin's Law?

[kettle]

Though I'm sure some people do that, I'd wouldn't say it was a vast conspiracy. DesertRat might disagree with such a blanket statement. ;)I wasn't pointing out that it was a "vast conspiracy", I was mearly trying to demonstrate how the liberal tendency is to congregate in discussion groups applauding eachother on how splendidly "right on" their collective liberalism is.
This thread is an excellent example of what happens when a liberal think tank runs out of potentially useful ideas to discuss and resorts to conversations, more or less about the weather.

Plus, I've never heard anyone use the term "oik"....try post number 15 of this thread.

I am struggling to imagine a scenario where this discussion goes in a positive direction.:rolleyes:
Don't I get bonus points for making this prediction?Probably not, although that was such an unproductive comment ;) , you may get your name on the "C" list of most wanted Trolls.

The question was "why does macrumors lean liberal?"

The answer should be obvious.

that means (smart arse comment aside), it may seem that way to the casual onlooker, but the answer could easily be "it doesn't."

I think the truth is, Macrumors just stands there, holding us all safely in place while we lean in any direction that takes our fancy.

thanks to pseudobrit and IJ Reilly for being eager participants in my demonstration. :)

[Xtremehkr]

That's an inflammatory assertion, Liberals are rarely all on the same page all of the time.

I find it hard to believe that you have not noticed that republicans all have the same argument these days. Between the Dittoheads and other pundit followers there is no longer any deviation in right wing philosophy, no matter how wrong or inaccurate it is.

Getting liberals to agree on something can be like herding cats sometimes.

Being a conservative in the US is much easier of late, just listen and repeat ad infinitum.

[kettle]

That's an inflammatory assertion, Liberals are rarely all on the same page all of the time.

I find it hard to believe that you have not noticed that republicans all have the same argument these days. Between the Dittoheads and other pundit followers there is no longer any deviation in right wing philosophy, no matter how wrong or inaccurate it is.

Getting liberals to agree on something can be like herding cats sometimes.

Being a conservative in the US is much easier of late, just listen and repeat ad infinitum.

That's not the point either, I don't expect one or other political thinking to be any easier to agree upon. The point is the liberal thought process goes to the lowest common appeasement of a question, that's why they're liberal and that's why people who dilute process to a mediocrity find the "committee" process so rewarding.

Any one with an aversion to the diluting of ideals rarely sees value in discussing ideals with a committee. So I tend to think liberals see a greater value in discussion even if they in fact spend as much time as anyone trying to agree.

I think you wanted that to be an inflammatory assertion. :) Fire's out my side.

[zimv20]

The point is the liberal thought process goes to the lowest common appeasement of a question, that's why they're liberal and that's why people who dilute process to a mediocrity find the "committee" process so rewarding.

Any one with an aversion to the diluting of ideals rarely sees value in discussing ideals with a committee. So I tend to think liberals see a greater value in discussion even if they in fact spend as much time as anyone trying to agree.

wow.

anyone else detect a twinge of anti-intellectualism?

[skunk]

The point is the liberal thought process goes to the lowest common appeasement of a question, that's why they're liberal and that's why people who dilute process to a mediocrity find the "committee" process so rewarding. Any one with an aversion to the diluting of ideals rarely sees value in discussing ideals with a committee. So I tend to think liberals see a greater value in discussion even if they in fact spend as much time as anyone trying to agree.

I think you wanted that to be an inflammatory assertion. :) Fire's out my side.
Inflammatory or not, I fail to see what you are driving at: are you saying that consensus is a bad thing? Are you saying that liberals are appeasers? Are you saying that undiluted ideals are a good thing?

[Lyle]

Godwin's Law?Does that apply here? Technically speaking, Thomas mentioned Nazis in an earlier post in this thread, but I don't think that he met the spirit of the law.

[kettle]

Inflammatory or not, I fail to see what you are driving at: are you saying that consensus is a bad thing? Are you saying that liberals are appeasers? Are you saying that undiluted ideals are a good thing?Why do you want me to say? one way is good or bad? or some one is good or bad depending on what they think an any particular issue any second of the day.

committee decisions are usually ok, rarely bad, rarely excellent.

individual based decisions can be bad as often as they are excellent rarely average. The individual usually goes for an option of least loss of popularity.

How much further does this need going over?
committee power hates individual power?
a consensus is just individuals receiving equally poor/great solutions to a common situation?
the difference between tolerance and allegiance?

Are you saying that liberals are appeasers?In some respects of the term and in general yes, but it all depends on what principles are involved. can't really say yes or no. either way you'll probably want to say I'm wrong. that's ok.:)

Are you saying that undiluted ideals are a good thing? Yes, but diluted ideals are good too.

I would ideally be liberal but it's not a static ideal, it just turns everything into a murky neutral density soup that doesn't make anyone happy or sad. The same as undiluted individual ideals, except some will be happy some will be sad.

I rather like the idea that no one part of society has control, I like the tug to and froe. It will always happen. If there were only "liberals" on earth, the same dynamic would re manifest itself. very george orwell.

people may have different politics, but we're all part of the same twisted game of life. Everyone has a part to play, even if it were the last few people on earth.

[daveL]

just curious... wondering what about this forum's demographic shows such an obvious bias. the country was pretty evenly split in the last election, but you'd never know it from reading the boards here. any ideas?

(telling me- well the other half of the country are nothing but idiots isnt going to lead to a very intelligent discussion- so dont do that)
Six years ago, I wasn't a liberal. Now, two layoffs after the first Bush win, I wouldn't vote to the right to save my soul. Bush has singlehandedly polarized the world along a religious axis and created a completely no-win situation for all of us. What a ********** idiot. And Clinton was a bad guy? Give me a break! Bush: The most damaging President is US history. I can't imagine that I live in a country where more than 50% of the voters picked Bush, twice (well, almost). My entire perception of the US population has changed forever, and it's not in a good way.

The Walmart crowd voted in Bush; the Walmart crowd loves Windows (cheap, but inferior). I don't go to Walmart, 'nuf said.

I should know better to reply to these threads. The whole things makes my blood boil. Sorry for the rant.

[mactastic]

I was mearly trying to demonstrate how the liberal tendency is to congregate in discussion groups applauding eachother on how splendidly "right on" their collective liberalism is.

Umm... ever visited the forums of the Free Republic (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/browse)?

Your attempted slander of liberals holds no water, for there are just as many right wing congregations that gather to pat themselves on the back and applaud each other for their collective wisdom as well.

[skunk]

Why do you want me to say? one way is good or bad? or some one is good or bad depending on what they think an any particular issue any second of the day.
It wouldn't change my opinion of you one way or another - I don't know you. Your post was rather an oblique, scattershot affair, the drift of which was unclear.

committee decisions are usually ok, rarely bad, rarely excellent.

individual based decisions can be bad as often as they are excellent rarely average. The individual usually goes for an option of least loss of popularity.
Truisms garnished with a pessimistic view of human nature.

How much further does this need going over?
committee power hates individual power?
a consensus is just individuals receiving equally poor/great solutions to a common situation?
the difference between tolerance and allegiance?
What exactly needs "going over"? Are you having a go at anybody in particular, or just MR posters in general? I am certainly aware of the limitations of committees, but what does that tell you?

In some respects of the term and in general yes, but it all depends on what principles are involved. can't really say yes or no. either way you'll probably want to say I'm wrong. that's ok.:)
You just contradicted yourself. Say what you want, not what you might imagine I wanted you to say. What's the point of being here otherwise?

Yes, but diluted ideals are good too.

I would ideally be liberal but it's not a static ideal, it just turns everything into a murky neutral density soup that doesn't make anyone happy or sad. The same as undiluted individual ideals, except some will be happy some will be sad.

I rather like the idea that no one part of society has control, I like the tug to and froe. It will always happen. If there were only "liberals" on earth, the same dynamic would re manifest itself. very george orwell.

people may have different politics, but we're all part of the same twisted game of life. Everyone has a part to play, even if it were the last few people on earth.
Well, I can't say I'm any the wiser about your political or philosophical positions, if indeed you hold any. It all sounds rather depressing, though.