entry level MP vs loaded PC

[frocco]

Hello,

I am having a hard time justifying the MP, (even through I want it) as compared to a loaded PC like:

http://www.shopping.hp.com/product/computers/desktops/HPE460z_series/rts/4/computer_store/BM429AA%2523ABA

Am I missing something? I know the MP is built better.

I do some gaming, finance and programming (PHP,c#)

I already ordered a Dell UltraSHarp 23" and need a deaktop soon.

Thanks

[Hellhammer]

The main question is, do you want/need OS X? If you don't, just get the PC as it's much cheaper though inferior compared to MP (you don't really need the extra features that MP has). Or is iMac out of question?

[frocco]

I already ordered the dell monitor, so I would have to return it if I got the imac.
Why is the PC inferior? Is it just because of OSX? (which I like alot), but need windows for decent gaming.

[Hellhammer]

I already ordered the dell monitor, so I would have to return it if I got the imac.
Why is the PC inferior? Is it just because of OSX? (which I like alot), but need windows for decent gaming.


No support for ECC RAM
Only one PCIe x16 + 3 PCIe x1 (Mac Pro has two PCIe x16 and two PCIe x4)


For you, the only disadvantage would be single PCIe x16 as you cannot have multiple GPUs.

If you're going to use Windows for most of the time, then just get a PC. It sounds pointless to spend +1000$ more on Mac Pro and then use it to run Windows.

I would recommend you to build the PC yourself. It's cheaper, you have more choices and at least I find it fun. You also get better warranty. You could also take a look at Hackintoshing it.

[glay78]

I already ordered the dell monitor, so I would have to return it if I got the imac.
Why is the PC inferior? Is it just because of OSX? (which I like alot), but need windows for decent gaming.

If you buy a MP you can bootcamp for gaming too, but you can't run OSX on a PC although u can have better specs.

[kernkraft]

Only 4 RAM slots (Mac Pro has 6)
No support for ECC RAM
Only one PCIe x16 + 3 PCIe x1 (Mac Pro has two PCIe x16 and two PCIe x4)


For you, the only disadvantage would be single PCIe x16 as you cannot have multiple GPUs.

If you're going to use Windows for most of the time, then just get a PC. It sounds pointless to spend +1000$ more on Mac Pro and then use it to run Windows.

I would recommend you to build the PC yourself. It's cheaper, you have more choices and at least I find it fun. You also get better warranty. You could also take a look at Hackintoshing it.


I have been following your comments and I have to say that if I'll ever need advice about computing hardware, I'll ask yours.

Keep on the good work! :)

[Hellhammer]

you can't run OSX on a PC although u can have better specs.

Installing OS X on PC is easier than it has ever been before. You just have to do little research before buying the components to ensure the best compatibility.

I have been following your comments and I have to say that if I'll ever need advice about computing hardware, I'll ask yours.

Keep on the good work! :)

Comments like these keep me going ;) :)

[glay78]

Installing OS X on PC is easier than it has ever been before. You just have to do little research before buying the components to ensure the best compatibility.

Yea I know and I've built one before, but I still buy a used MP in the end because I wanted the stability and I really like the built of a MP internally. For hackintosh its always a headache when comes to OSX update. Thats the only problem.

[kernkraft]

Comments like these keep me going ;) :)


But at one point, you'll have to charge. :)

[sochet]

If you're using finance apps professionally (I'm assuming here by finance you mean commodity/stock trading) then I wouldn't build your own. Sure it's cheaper but if something goes wrong (and let's face it, it very might well do) then you're on your own to fix it.

My MP died on my a while ago (several times I might add) and the moment I mentioned I made a living off the machine Applecare were really good. They even offered to loan me a MP while mine was being fixed (which I haven't heard of them doing before)

I know nothing of finance apps, so I can't comment on how well the software runs on OSX vs. Windows, but there are people here that use a MP to trade online as their main source of income and they don't seem to be complaining!

The only real downside I think with getting a MP would be having to re-boot to get to either OS, my cousin works in financial trading and for him speed is the key.

I think ideally you'd have a windows gaming machine, and a MP to do finance/coding/gaming next to each other. You can keep an eye on the finance tickers and game at the same time! Then of course you could load the finance software on windows and watch that while you do all the coding work :p

Just for the ease of upgrading, the fact that the whole environment is stable out the box, and having the option to bootcamp I'd go with the MP.

[frocco]

Sorry, I did not specify correctly. I only use home finance like budget, moneywell or YNAB.

I do some web programming using PHP mostly.
If I get the imac, it would only be about 500 dollars more than a PC.

[bizzle]

Only 4 RAM slots (Mac Pro has 6)
No support for ECC RAM
Only one PCIe x16 + 3 PCIe x1 (Mac Pro has two PCIe x16 and two PCIe x4)


For you, the only disadvantage would be single PCIe x16 as you cannot have multiple GPUs.

If you're going to use Windows for most of the time, then just get a PC. It sounds pointless to spend +1000$ more on Mac Pro and then use it to run Windows.

I would recommend you to build the PC yourself. It's cheaper, you have more choices and at least I find it fun. You also get better warranty. You could also take a look at Hackintoshing it.
So what mystery prototype Mac Pro do you have that has 6 RAM slots. It's 4 or 8 on current models.

[Hellhammer]

Sorry, I did not specify correctly. I only use home finance like budget, moneywell or YNAB.

I do some web programming using PHP mostly.
If I get the imac, it would only be about 500 dollars more than a PC.

How often and how intensive is your gaming? iMac is okay at gaming but if you're after great graphics and insane FPS, then iMac is not the way to go. It also lacks upgradeability. If you're just a casual gamer and graphics are not that important, then iMac should be just fine.

So what mystery prototype Mac Pro do you have that has 6 RAM slots. It's 4 or 8 on current models.

My bad, I guess I was thinking X58 chipset in general :o Fixed it.

[Asylum Design]

If you buy a MP you can bootcamp for gaming too, but you can't run OSX on a PC although u can have better specs.

Not quite. Check the sig. You have to roll your own... I wouldn't try and install it on any pre-built Dell, HP, etc... the bios doesn't have the (usually) needed OS-X compatibility that, say, every P55 Gigabyte Motherboard has out of the box (for instance, 64-Bit HPET).

That said... if the OP is looking at buying a HP vs. building his own... the OP most likely isn't a hackintosh suitable customer.

EDIT: OP... you are NOT comparing Apples (hah) to Apples. You are comparing an AMD 6-Core CPU to a XENON Workstation Class CPU. The friggin' CPU in the Mac Pro costs twice as much as that entire HP rig. That's what you are missing. Amongst other things... the Industrial Design, for starters.

The XENON Mac Pro Class CPUs can cost you $1200 to $3000 for JUST THE CPU in the "PC WORLD"... This is no $300 AMD CPU. (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=safari&rls=en&q=E5670&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=450452964705952915&ei=lLyyTPvZIMSclgfgjMHnDw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=11&ved=0CDUQ8wIwCg#ps-sellers)

[Transporteur]

EDIT: OP... you are NOT comparing Apples (hah) to Apples. You are comparing an AMD 6-Core CPU to a XENON Workstation Class CPU. The friggin' CPU in the Mac Pro costs twice as much as that entire HP rig. That's what you are missing. Amongst other things... the Industrial Design, for starters.

The XENON Mac Pro Class CPUs can cost you $1200 to $3000 for JUST THE CPU in the "PC WORLD"... This is no $300 AMD CPU. (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=safari&rls=en&q=E5670&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=450452964705952915&ei=lLyyTPvZIMSclgfgjMHnDw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=11&ved=0CDUQ8wIwCg#ps-sellers)


Just FYI, XENON is a noble gas, amongst others used in light bulbs for cars.

The processors are called XEON, and they price range for Mac Pro compatible ones goes up to $1700 (X5680), not $3000.

[nanofrog]

Am I missing something? I know the MP is built better.
Not really. :eek: :( Both systems are made by Foxconn, and both HP's and Apple's computers have suffered as a result of it (not like it was back in the PPC or earlier MP's, which had boards ODM'ed by Intel).

Spend some time looking around MR, and you'll notice various issues from 2009 and newer (frequency of hardware and software bugs are increasing).

[Hellhammer]

EDIT: OP... you are NOT comparing Apples (hah) to Apples. You are comparing an AMD 6-Core CPU to a XENON Workstation Class CPU. The friggin' CPU in the Mac Pro costs twice as much as that entire HP rig. That's what you are missing. Amongst other things... the Industrial Design, for starters.

The XENON Mac Pro Class CPUs can cost you $1200 to $3000 for JUST THE CPU in the "PC WORLD"... This is no $300 AMD CPU. (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?client=safari&rls=en&q=E5670&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=450452964705952915&ei=lLyyTPvZIMSclgfgjMHnDw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=11&ved=0CDUQ8wIwCg#ps-sellers)

W3530 which can be found in base Mac Pro costs 294$. AMD Phenom II x6 1090T costs around 260$, no big difference... And there are even more expensive CPUs from AMD

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819105272

[johnnymg]

I'd like to nominate Hellhammer to write a sticky for this "should I buy a MP or (insert name) PC" question. This question is asked about once a week and the answer is nearly always the same. Having a good canned response (sticky) would certainly take some redundancy out of the initial replies.

good luck to the OP whichever way you go!
JohnG

[frocco]

[QUOTE=I'd like to nominate Hellhammer to write a sticky for this "should I buy a MP or (insert name) PC" question.[/QUOTE]

+1

[frocco]

I also looked at the Dell I7-870 from Best Buy that is in the price range as the HP.

From the responses, I still am unclear if the entry level MP is worth the additional 1000+ dollars.

Thanks

[dissolve]

One thing few people consider is the support you'll get with the MP. The proliferation of Apple Stores has made it really easy to get repairs done. I've already gotten a free PSU with little hassle at all. I know you can't really figure this into the price, but it at least helped me justify the purchase ;)

EDIT: I should have clarified that I got mine with an education discount + free iPod touch (which I sold right away). This helped bring the price down significantly. I'd have a hard time buying a base, stock MP too. To the OP, look at the refurb site. They have great deals. Amazon is selling 2009s as well at a crazy low price...$1829 for the base model :eek:. I don't know how warranty works out with that though.

[Transporteur]

One thing few people consider is the support you'll get with the MP. The proliferation of Apple Stores has made it really easy to get repairs done. I've already gotten a free PSU with little hassle at all. I know you can't really figure this into the price, but it at least helped me justify the purchase ;)

Actually the support you get with your MP is pretty much the worst you can get for a workstation!

Keep in mind that you get exactly one year without additional costs and you are only eligible for home repairs when you're located in range of 80km from a local AASP or Apple Store. And even then, there is no clear statement how long such a repair will take.

Other workstation manufactures like Dell or HP have much better hardware support than Apple does!

[Hellhammer]

Actually the support you get with your MP is pretty much the worst you can get for a workstation!

Keep in mind that you get exactly one year without additional costs and you are only eligible for home repairs when you're located in range of 80km from a local AASP or Apple Store. And even then, there is no clear statement how long such a repair will take.

Other workstation manufactures like Dell or HP have much better hardware support than Apple does!

Have to agree with this. Dell offers things like 4-hour service etc. With Apple, you're stuck with normal warranty and service system that means you have to bring it to the store or ship it to Apple. This is one thing that Apple should definitely improve in products like Mac Pro.

And to the sticky thing, even though I'm happy that my input is appreciated, I don't think it's a good idea. "What to buy" things are always personal, we all have a bit different usage, so it's hard to give "general advice" that helps everyone. There is also new hardware and software coming all the time so it should be updated frequently. My opinion is also just one opinion from one point of view, it's good to have opinions from different point of view and other members also make excellent posts (like the one I quoted).

And one thing I like MR is that it's not bloated with stickies. Some forums I visit have this policy that all questions go into one massive sticky, like "basic questions about Mac Pro". I hate that as the topic changes all the time and some posts are left without a reply. Plus you have to go through three pages of stickies to find something :eek:

[dissolve]

Actually the support you get with your MP is pretty much the worst you can get for a workstation!

Keep in mind that you get exactly one year without additional costs and you are only eligible for home repairs when you're located in range of 80km from a local AASP or Apple Store. And even then, there is no clear statement how long such a repair will take.

Other workstation manufactures like Dell or HP have much better hardware support than Apple does!

Good point, I was comparing to building yourself or buying a consumer system from Dell or HP. Isn't that the type of system the OP linked to? I can't comment on their workstation support as I have no experience with it.

[Hellhammer]

Good point, I was comparing to building yourself or buying a consumer system from Dell or HP. Isn't that the type of system the OP linked to? I can't comment on their workstation support as I have no experience with it.

First of all, you shouldn't compare Mac Pro to a regular desktop as it's a workstation. However, Dell offers in-home service even for regular desktops. For workstations, they offer pretty much anything you want.

[dissolve]

First of all, you shouldn't compare Mac Pro to a regular desktop as it's a workstation. However, Dell offers in-home service even for regular desktops. For workstations, they offer pretty much anything you want.

I know and I completely agree with you. But, the OP (and many others with this question) compare it to a desktop. I'm only trying to offer a suggestion as to how one can justify the MP price when 'only' a desktop is required.

But, I did not know that Dell offers in-home service. Is that free? Seems like a great deal. I've had experience with HP service second-hand and it wasn't good. But that was with a laptop so maybe they have different policies than a desktop.

[Hellhammer]

But, I did not know that Dell offers in-home service. Is that free? Seems like a great deal. I've had experience with HP service second-hand and it wasn't good. But that was with a laptop so maybe they have different policies than a desktop.

Looks like it's free as even the basic warranty includes in-home service.

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/services/learn_more?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

I don't have any experience with that though, Dell doesn't offer it in Finland. It says that the technician may be from a 3rd party thus the quality of service may vary. It sounds nice though

[nanofrog]

Looks like it's free as even the basic warranty includes in-home service.

http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/services/learn_more?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

I don't have any experience with that though, Dell doesn't offer it in Finland. It says that the technician may be from a 3rd party thus the quality of service may vary. It sounds nice though
The techs are always 3rd party, as HP, Dell, and most others have all gone to contracted service providers (Apple's the only exception I can think of for Intel based systems).

[darlenea]

Yes Dell has in home service - but how trained are their service techs? I and several friends have had techs who knew very little - one tech was going to over write the good drive on my Raid zero setup - second drive was bad. I had to have a temper tantrum for him to stop and then I made him call to Dell to verify I was right = and I was! He left mad but I had my data. Darlene

[Transporteur]

Yes Dell has in home service - but how trained are their service techs? I and several friends have had techs who knew very little - one tech was going to over write the good drive on my Raid zero setup - second drive was bad. I had to have a temper tantrum for him to stop and then I made him call to Dell to verify I was right = and I was! He left mad but I had my data. Darlene

Pretty sure that you meant RAID 1, not 0.
If it had been a RAID 0, all your data would have been lost in case of a drive failure.

Anyway, who has experience with the Apple technicians that come to visit you?
I've heard some really bad things about them as well (which is why I always take my machines to my local AASP).

[nanofrog]

Yes Dell has in home service - but how trained are their service techs? I and several friends have had techs who knew very little - one tech was going to over write the good drive on my Raid zero setup - second drive was bad. I had to have a temper tantrum for him to stop and then I made him call to Dell to verify I was right = and I was! He left mad but I had my data. Darlene
It can vary widely. Some are excellent, others, well... not so much. Your location has a lot to do with it, as does the service provider, and the problem. Once you put in a call, the service provider contacts their techs, who agree/disagree to take the job based on the problem, and the payment amount.

For the low paying (less desirable stuff), the best techs tend to avoid it, as the provider company (who Dell, HP,... hires for the calls), tends to rip them off.

Location comes into this, as they're usually stuck paying their own fuel,... (tend not to get any reimbursement for travel expenses, even if its outside their normal service range).

It gets complicated, but if you're curious, look up a company called Barrister Global Services (example (http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/barrister-global-services-network-c130986.html)). They tend to make their real profits off the backs of their techs due to all the methods they've in place to rip them off. :eek: :( :mad:

[thunderboltspro]

why don't you get the pleasure of both worlds?
Get a macbook/pro/mini and build a desktop(it's pretty easy) or a prebuilt with windows.

[dryjoy]

From the responses, I still am unclear if the entry level MP is worth the additional 1000+ dollars.

Thanks

I think think you need to accept that your question is very subjective and can only be answered by you. The Mac Pro, component for component, can seem expensive in comparison to another manufacturers PC (although when you take into account the Xeon processors, a bit less so). But it is a Mac, and only one company makes Mac, so there is no choice or comparison (excluding Hackintoshes). For some this makes perfect sense and there is no question to be asked. For others it just does not. If you are still unclear if the entry level MP is worth the extra money, then I would suggest you are in the latter category and you should spend your money on the Windows PC with the better spec.

[frocco]

why don't you get the pleasure of both worlds?
Get a macbook/pro/mini and build a desktop(it's pretty easy) or a prebuilt with windows.

I think I may go this route, but will wait for the MBP to refresh.
I ordered an HP 470f and Dell u2311h monitor.

Dell dropped their price by 10 dollars and I emailed them and said I just ordered it and they will not adjust the price. They said I had to ship it back and pay for the shipping and may incur a 15% restock fee. I have owned HP before and never had any issues like this.

[mjsmke]

If you use windows then go for the PC. But if your like me and can't stand windows and like OSX then go for the Mac Pro. Both machines can be upgraded. The Mac will hold its price more than the PC....just look on ebay.

I was deciding between a £2200 Mac Pro or £1400 PC. The PC will loose most its value in 2-3 years but the Mac Pro's sell for 50 - 60% of the original price when 3-4 years old. So over time Mac Pros are cheaper than PC's.