Just was thinking the other day about the new "iMac mini" ($499 headless Mac).... Doesn't it make sense that this will KILL the resale of old G4 PMs? I wouldn't think that the old duals would even fetch more than $100... (At least the 500 Mhz variety)
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New iMac mini == death of resale
- Thread starter hcuar
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hcuar said:
Yeah, maybe...but you gotta admit, they had a much nicer run than a lot of used computer hardware!
But OTOH it also depends. The G4 PM's have expandability. There may still be a market for them for niche uses where the card slots are useful.... You think? I'm honestly not sure. I wonder if my iBook G4 will have any resale value by the time I want to upgrade it....
Of course #2 is you'll have to wait and see exactly what the new computer is.
I didn't read every post in the headless iMac thread, but I wonder. I wonder if they really want to get into the business of making all the necessary matching low-end accessories (esp monitors) to go along with the headless iMac. Although I guess tooling to wrap plastic around an existing 15" LCD couldn't be that bad, but if that's what they're going to do, why not just sell another lower-end all-in-one to begin with? But this isn't the thread for *that*... 
Well, I have a couple of thoughts on this... first off, it's about time. People are selling used Macs for WAY too much. I see some of the MDD PMs going for close to what a G5 refurb PM goes for! That's crazy, especially considerig the refurb gets the standard warranty, as is eligible for Applecare.
If there is a headless mini-mac it will certainly pring the prices down on G4 iMacs, and single CPU G4 powermacs some. Dual G4 PMs will still be grossly overpriced, I'm sure. On the other had, as mentioned by the previous poster, the G4 is upgradable with new video cards, etc, so they will still be valuable.
My other thought is that the new iBooks, which is just as fast, if not faster, than a lot of the older PBs, but they (the PBs) still sell for way more than they are, imo, worth. I was looking at getting a used PM G4, either a fast single CPU or an older dual G4. After searching around for awhile, I decided that an iMac G5 was a better buy. About the same price, all said and done, and more 'future proof'.
I'm not sure what it will finally take for the used Mac market to come down to reality, and hopefully this mini-mac will help, but we'll see.
If there is a headless mini-mac it will certainly pring the prices down on G4 iMacs, and single CPU G4 powermacs some. Dual G4 PMs will still be grossly overpriced, I'm sure. On the other had, as mentioned by the previous poster, the G4 is upgradable with new video cards, etc, so they will still be valuable.
My other thought is that the new iBooks, which is just as fast, if not faster, than a lot of the older PBs, but they (the PBs) still sell for way more than they are, imo, worth. I was looking at getting a used PM G4, either a fast single CPU or an older dual G4. After searching around for awhile, I decided that an iMac G5 was a better buy. About the same price, all said and done, and more 'future proof'.
I'm not sure what it will finally take for the used Mac market to come down to reality, and hopefully this mini-mac will help, but we'll see.
mrgreen4242 said:
Although I (partly) agree with you, surely it's to do with demand and what people are prepared to pay?
If somebody will meet the price, then it's not too expensive.
For me & you, perhaps -- but that's not the way the market works.
MrGreen, why do you want Macs to become worse for resale? I mean yes, it makes it harder to buy a used Mac, but still, it sure feels crappy when your $1,500 PC is worth $400 in a matter of months...
Macs are much stronger against time, and I still see many people using Powerbook and iBook G3's, and still looking up to date. Try using an old PC from 5-7 years ago... You'd be banned from Starbucks
Macs are much stronger against time, and I still see many people using Powerbook and iBook G3's, and still looking up to date. Try using an old PC from 5-7 years ago... You'd be banned from Starbucks
Blue Velvet said:
I meant that those people are like the fashion police, and there's always someone on a Mac laptop in Starbucks. An out of date PC is a fashion no-no, an old Mac will still fly
You must remember that Apple is not selling PM G4s anymore, so they will bring in that market of people wanting cheap Macs.
KevRC4130 said:MrGreen, why do you want Macs to become worse for resale? I mean yes, it makes it harder to buy a used Mac, but still, it sure feels crappy when your $1,500 PC is worth $400 in a matter of months...
Macs are much stronger against time, and I still see many people using Powerbook and iBook G3's, and still looking up to date. Try using an old PC from 5-7 years ago... You'd be banned from Starbucks
It's not that I specifically want used Macs to be worth less, but I think that it would be good for the Mac community if they were more affordable, as getting people to switch by getting an older iBook or something as a second machine would be easier than getting them to buy a $2000 powerbook or something like that.
Hopefully this new machine will help with that by both getting switchers to buy it and also focing the used market to compete at a more reasonable level. I agree that a 4 year old iBook is WAY more valuable than a 4 year PC notebook, but it's not worth what's being paid for them.
I also think that Apple machines are in kind of a flux state right now. The G5 is just getting into the affordable machines, and the early G5 PMs are starting to appear in the used market. I think that this makes the value of G4 machines go down (don't misunderstand, the G4 is still a very usable and capable machine, it's just "last years technology"), however the prices haven't fallen accordingly.
That's just my opinion. I think that a lot of other people agree with me, but the people sellign old Macs probably don't.
Rob
I Agree...
My first gen flat panel iMac is looking less and less powerful. At 700mhz, it may soon be time to give it to my daughter to play with. Besides the 15in screen, it is so much less a computer now, but still runs all my hard apps good enough. I was going to sell it for $600 to a friend but with this low-end machine I don't think I could anymore. I still think that everyone is wrong in thinking that this is just some inexpensive "headless" iMac, I think it is a specific device that hooks up to your TV. What cheap Windows user would pay $1000 more for an iMac G5 then. If there is a cheap headless Imac, they would spend all there time complaining about what it isn't, instead of what it is. I am probably wrong but see this as some sort of DEDICATED device, not just a cheap computer.
I think I'm the only one who is not looking forward to a cheaper Mac. Since buying my Mac at the beginning of the OS X era, we have all experienced this "Cult of Mac". It's the cool kids club! I don't want to see market share increase if it's going to sacrifice our percieved status. Kinda like when we spent $400 on the original iPod, it was the coolest thing. Now since everyone has one, the allure of being an early adopter has faded. Now it's, "So, you gotta iPod TOO huh, everybody has those." The notion of a cheap computer just doesn't feel right to me and our Mac culture. It will seriously undermine the percieved qualities and value of older used Macs. Though bottom line Apple is a bussiness, I don't want them to sacrifice us, their user base too much, just to get more cheap Windows users.
My first gen flat panel iMac is looking less and less powerful. At 700mhz, it may soon be time to give it to my daughter to play with. Besides the 15in screen, it is so much less a computer now, but still runs all my hard apps good enough. I was going to sell it for $600 to a friend but with this low-end machine I don't think I could anymore. I still think that everyone is wrong in thinking that this is just some inexpensive "headless" iMac, I think it is a specific device that hooks up to your TV. What cheap Windows user would pay $1000 more for an iMac G5 then. If there is a cheap headless Imac, they would spend all there time complaining about what it isn't, instead of what it is. I am probably wrong but see this as some sort of DEDICATED device, not just a cheap computer.
I think I'm the only one who is not looking forward to a cheaper Mac. Since buying my Mac at the beginning of the OS X era, we have all experienced this "Cult of Mac". It's the cool kids club! I don't want to see market share increase if it's going to sacrifice our percieved status. Kinda like when we spent $400 on the original iPod, it was the coolest thing. Now since everyone has one, the allure of being an early adopter has faded. Now it's, "So, you gotta iPod TOO huh, everybody has those." The notion of a cheap computer just doesn't feel right to me and our Mac culture. It will seriously undermine the percieved qualities and value of older used Macs. Though bottom line Apple is a bussiness, I don't want them to sacrifice us, their user base too much, just to get more cheap Windows users.
AdamZ said:
So you mean you have apps that you're not happy with on it anymore? I don't play any games on my iBook G4/800, but if I'm honest, I guess that the issue is more that there are faster computers out there and I want them, than that there's anything mine can't do that I want to do. Is it the same way with you? Geek tech lust sucks ... don't get me wrong ... I feel it too, but the problem is there'll always be something altogether too soon that you'll want instead.
And just to beat a dead horse...how much do you think you'd get for a Win PC that you'd bought at the same time for the same price? Hmm ... maybe it'd be more, but I tend to doubt it. I guess it *is* worse for desktops than notebooks too....
I do feel your ambivalence about Mac marketshare upping though. I wouldn't worry about it skyrocketing exactly...if it hit 10% of the consumer market, I think that would be close to miracle land. With the iPod, it's a little different, I guess.... But just think. You actually know how to *use* yours....
People still look at me like I'm Merlin when I use Bluetooth on my cell to sync contacts or use a wireless headset.
And they're like, you have a space-age amazing whiz-bang phone. And most of them have S-E T6xx's in their pocket that can do basically everything my phone can, if they knew how to use it. The cult of Mac to which you belong, in other words, is in part the cool products Apple makes, but in larger part, your ability to appreciate and use that quality and technology.
AdamZ said:
No, no, no... the way I understand it, at least, is... that the original concept was the computer for everybody. The computer that was easy to use... the computer for the family. That was the original ethos.
Somewhere along the line it acquired iconic status and combined with the perceived hipness of its main users (graphic designers) it became this... this... this (lets be honest) status symbol.
Back to the roots!
That's what I say...
hcuar said:
Doesn't matter to me... I'm never selling my Cube!
{edit} Just noticed... two David Lynch-themed 'tars in a row. A MacRumors first?
mkrishnan said:
Your right. Besides Motion and inexpensive Airport, there is nothing I can't do on my older iMac. As you said we just want newer. I too use Salling Clicker and a SE610 and people are amazed at what I can do with it, like simply say out load "Call Roy at work" and the Mac finds the number in Address book and dials it for me. To us this is normal. The real culture stems from understanding our technology, and using it as our most trusted tool. We just get it. I just don't want Apple to dull it down for the highest denominator. BMW doesn't do that to get new drivers, and that's why this headless iMac feels like some kind of dedicated device, not a PC. For instance, I think now that the iPod has caught on, mostly to Windows users, there should be a slightly more candylicious version of iTunes for us Mac users. Is Apple going to keep iTunes antiquated just so it can run on Windows? Probably. Change is a scary thing, I just want to hold on to what we have. I am even kinda embarrased now to wear my white headphones.
AdamZ said:
Rock 'em my friend, and be unembarrassed to pwn any1 who has them connected to their über discman.
There will always be a rebel faction for people like you.KevRC4130 said:MrGreen, why do you want Macs to become worse for resale? I mean yes, it makes it harder to buy a used Mac, but still, it sure feels crappy when your $1,500 PC is worth $400 in a matter of months...
Macs are much stronger against time, and I still see many people using Powerbook and iBook G3's, and still looking up to date. Try using an old PC from 5-7 years ago... You'd be banned from Starbucks
Macs are only stronger against time because new tech doesn't come out as fast as it does for PC's. Also my laptop from 5-7 Years ago will run faster than your ibook from 5-7 Years ago because I'm not limited by the OS I'm running or the OS tech. (e.g. Quartz)
Flowbee said:
Your Cube won't go down in value as much becaue the cube is a completly different commodity.
AdamZ said:
Oh No? Go drive an X3. Can't offroad and because it's an SUV it handles like crap.
AdamZ said:
How would that make sense from a business standpoint? The majority of iPod users are PC users why shouldn't we get the better version of iTunes?
Also the white ear buds the iPod comes with have crappy sound quality, so it doesn't really matter.
I agree with the people who said they aren't looking forward to a cheap Mac. One nice thing about owning a Mac is that they DO have excellent resale value. When I was buying a laptop and deciding between a Centrino or an iBook, this was the factor that ultimately made me want the Mac. For all you people complaining how used Macs are overpriced, one day you will want to sell your Mac. How will it feel if your 3-year-old $1500 computer is worth $300?
I also think this will ruin iMac G5 sales. The G5 is not THAT much more powerful than the G4, and a 1.25 GHz G4 is still a very good processor, IMO. My eMac 1GHz G4 is just as fast as my 2.5 GHz Dell where it matter for me (both rip at 14x, load Photoshop in the same time, render webpages fast, etc). My point is, it is more than enough for the average consumer, so the market for the iMac is going to become extremely small and no one in their right mind would buy the eMac, if it's not discontinued completely. Apple is smarter than this--the rumors of a cheap, headless Mac must be missing something.
I also think this will ruin iMac G5 sales. The G5 is not THAT much more powerful than the G4, and a 1.25 GHz G4 is still a very good processor, IMO. My eMac 1GHz G4 is just as fast as my 2.5 GHz Dell where it matter for me (both rip at 14x, load Photoshop in the same time, render webpages fast, etc). My point is, it is more than enough for the average consumer, so the market for the iMac is going to become extremely small and no one in their right mind would buy the eMac, if it's not discontinued completely. Apple is smarter than this--the rumors of a cheap, headless Mac must be missing something.
It's not a Mac users "right" to higher resale values than in the Windows PC world. Its not as if Apple gave this any thought before producing a cheap, headless Mac. "Oh wait, what is this going to do to the resale values of used Macs!!!" They don't care. They don't owe it to the customer to ensure high resale values. If you have benefitted from high resale values for a long time (ie: selling used Macs regularly for a high price to get newer Apple gear), then congratulations. However, it's not something that anybody is owed, and if Apple brings out cheaper Macs that people can afford, then fantastic. It's better for consumers who want to get into Macs without spending $1500 on an iMac.
To me, the problem is that I don't want the Apple marketshare to grow a lot.
To me, the problem is that I don't want the Apple marketshare to grow a lot.
MrJohnson said:
Well from your response I am only guessing that you don't own a Mac, so it would be difficult for me to explain what I mean by this "Apple Culture". If I am wrong I am truly very sorry. But the whole point is that we are attracted to the Mac platform for a large number of reasons. An important one for me is the very tight integration between hardware & software that Apple gives us. Things tend to work. Elegantly. Just like Microsoft Office is just more elegant on the Mac, I think Apple should really let PC users drool just a bit more when using iTunes on a Mac versus PC. It is not a matter for PC users having the same experience because ultimatly, you CAN'T. Thanks to that very tight integration from Apple and OS X, our experiences with iTunes are dramatically different allready when you use Garageband and the rest of iLife. I am just saying that Apple shouldn't make iTunes less than it could be just cause it wouldn't run on your PC. iTunes should grow faster than iLife actually, and we have been waiting a long time for a version 5.
But back to the main topic of the thread. I was only speaking that the very core of our community has not been a cheap/inexpensive computer. Rather we see the value in having a choice. We pay extra to have a computer alternative to the rest of the world, and a better one to boot. That's why this headless cheap imac thing has to me some dedicated device like a set top box or something. Anything else and I start to wonder. But altimatly you are absolutly right because yes, Apple is a business.
I want to take this a new direction
Everyone is forgetting about people like me... I am a college student who enjoys mac OS X and does not enjoy having to fix the home computer every 2 min because windows has some sort of adware or spyware or virus... so i try and convince my parents to buy a mac...
My dad is somewhat up to date with technology (for and older person), but my mom is clueless. My mom is the type that needs written instructions for how to turn the computer on and off.
My dad seems to like the mac idea (the 17inch 1.6ghz imac + airport + wireless mouse and keybored + applecare + 512 mb of 3rd party ram)...
the problem...
All that will cost around 1600 dollars, which is a good price for the package i would be getting (with education discount), but, my mom sees those pesky dell commercials advertizing 300 dollar computers and she says that we dont need anything better than "one of those". Her budget seems to be maxed out at around 600-800 dollars (she wants to use the familys money to redo a bathroom or something like that)...
the solution...
a cheap mac... and once the rents experience a cheep intro into Mac OS X, it opens the floodgates for buying more powerful more expensive machines with the confidence of knowing that macs are neither overpriced or underperforming.
Please let this rumor be true.
Everyone is forgetting about people like me... I am a college student who enjoys mac OS X and does not enjoy having to fix the home computer every 2 min because windows has some sort of adware or spyware or virus... so i try and convince my parents to buy a mac...
My dad is somewhat up to date with technology (for and older person), but my mom is clueless. My mom is the type that needs written instructions for how to turn the computer on and off.
My dad seems to like the mac idea (the 17inch 1.6ghz imac + airport + wireless mouse and keybored + applecare + 512 mb of 3rd party ram)...
the problem...
All that will cost around 1600 dollars, which is a good price for the package i would be getting (with education discount), but, my mom sees those pesky dell commercials advertizing 300 dollar computers and she says that we dont need anything better than "one of those". Her budget seems to be maxed out at around 600-800 dollars (she wants to use the familys money to redo a bathroom or something like that)...
the solution...
a cheap mac... and once the rents experience a cheep intro into Mac OS X, it opens the floodgates for buying more powerful more expensive machines with the confidence of knowing that macs are neither overpriced or underperforming.
Please let this rumor be true.
jamdr said:
100% agree. Imac G5 sales would tumble and I think that is the product Apple wants to sell. I have been following various rumors about Apple for a long time. Very recently they pulled a Quicktime Analyst meeting where Jobs and Phil spoke in great length about Media Center PCs and how computers diverge, not come together. They went on for awhile about it. Remeber all those Tablet rumors from so long ago. Remember how everyone wanted an iMac with a removable wireless screen that you could take around the house and use for streaming. Or possible the remote control for Airport Express that everyone wants. If you take all these pieces and random events together it starts to paint a picture. Just do a search for tablet here on this site and you'll see how a headless iMac just really doesn't fit ito the picture. But boy a dedicated unit for your living room with the option for a wireless screen sure does. Remember these rumors from a couple of years ago now. http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,713606,00.asp http://tonytalkstech.com/2003/12/02/apples-tablet-computer/
As for resell value. Of course it guides our decision to buy. I think Apple does care about the perception of there products, and a cheap mac would lessen it. My mother probably would not have bought a BMW if she new it would be undervalued by compition from BWM itself!
Apple has never had a cheap anything, with a new cheap headles imac it would kill off a lot of imac G5 sales. Given a G5 with fx5200, a G4 with a fx5200 can do everything that machine can do except hard gaming which the G5 cant do anyways with its poor fx5200. Imac G5 sales will tumble down to little to nothing if this machine is made. Why apple doesnt give the consumer a total upgradeable machine like powermac only with1 cpu and half the size is beyond me ands lots of Macrumors members. If this machine does show itself you can be sure it will be crippled in many ways in typical Apple fashion. Just build a modern Cube you engineering morons over at Apple an dont price it out of the galaxy like the last one.