Anybody Using The Dx4? (4x SSD In PCIe) [Archive]

JulianBoolean

Oct 16, 2010, 09:03 AM

That will work. :) The card will even include the internal cable you need to connect to the 4x SSD's,
This is really good news! :) But... by "card" you mean the Areca raid card I'm intending to purchase? I'm asking because, when you order the DX4 there is a bundle option to purchase a Rocket Raid 2310 card. Do I need this in addition to the Areca card I"d like to get?
so it's just the card, mount, and drives to buy. It will also leave you 4x ports (1x remaining internal connector).
I've the same uncertainty about which card.
If you want to use the HDD bays with the remaining ports,
Yup.
you'll need the MaxUpgrades kit (http://www.maxupgrades.com/istore/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=189%20) ($129).
My 4 internal bays already have drives in there, and are working fine. I'm not understanding how adding the SSDs to the PCI slot, interferes with the 4 internal bays or what this connector thingy does. I'm lacking a basic understanding of what connects into what. I have it pictured like this. The Areca raid card plugs into one of the two PCI slots. The DX4 sled holding the SSDs, plugs into one of the ports on the Areca card. The four internal HDs also plug into the Areca card, still leaving one PCI slot open. Is this correct? Is the thing you've linked just a way to connect the Internal drive to the Areca Card?
You'd be able to have a second array for your primary data (say RAID 5 if you wish), but use enterprise disks from the HDD Compatibility List on Areca's site, as it will save tons of headache if you end up buying incompatible drives.
Excellent suggestion, I think you've saved me some headaches :) because it appears that the WD velociraptors I've been eyeballing are not on the supported list. Perhaps not suited for raid arrays other than zero? Seems like quite a few folks are using that flavor of raid with the raptors and none seem to be complaining. I'm leaning towards four or five 750GB WD RE4's in a raid 5 at this point. I'm opting for the lower volume drives, because my retouchers get sloppy with their file management when there is lots of space on the local drives, ha!

Thanks for all your help!

Julian

nanofrog

Oct 16, 2010, 11:56 AM

This is really good news! :) But... by "card" you mean the Areca raid card I'm intending to purchase? I'm asking because, when you order the DX4 there is a bundle option to purchase a Rocket Raid 2310 card. Do I need this in addition to the Areca card I"d like to get?
Avoid a Highpoint Card like the plague (support sucks, promises not kept,...).

It comes down to the fact they don't actually design or manufacture any of their gear, but get it from various ODM's (why their products are inconsistent from one another).

I've the same uncertainty about which card.
Think about the following questions, and get back to me (we can work through this):

How much capacity do you need now?
What level of performance do you need?
What is your future expansion requirment (i.e. base this on how much you consume a year)?
Will you need to boot from the array?

If you're not sure on any of these, we can try and work through it (i.e. list out the software you're using, if you're a professional or hobbyist,...). Please understand, I'd prefer to have all the details again, as I've been in so many RAID threads, it's too easy to get your specifics mixed up with someone elses.

My 4 internal bays already have drives in there, and are working fine. I'm not understanding how adding the SSDs to the PCI slot, interferes with the 4 internal bays or what this connector thingy does. I'm lacking a basic understanding of what connects into what. I have it pictured like this. The Areca raid card plugs into one of the two PCI slots. The DX4 sled holding the SSDs, plugs into one of the ports on the Areca card. The four internal HDs also plug into the Areca card, still leaving one PCI slot open. Is this correct? Is the thing you've linked just a way to connect the Internal drive to the Areca Card?

What exactly are you trying to do with what sized drives?
Are you just trying to connect the 4x SSD's to the RAID card? Or will there be mechanical as well?

The MaxUpgrades kit is only meant to allow you to attach the HDD bays to the card so you can use those physical locations (will fit 3.5" or 2.5" drives via adapters). Nothing to do with any sort of interference from a PCIe slot device.

Assuming you're only after 4x SSD's on the RAID card, there's a better way to go about it than the DX4 (here (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816710003&cm_re=2.5%22_backplane-_-16-710-003-_-Product)). It's cheaper, and fits in the empty optical bay. Use this (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812816038&cm_re=sata_to_molex-_-12-816-038-_-Product) from the cable in the optical bay to get power to the cage.

Excellent suggestion, I think you've saved me some headaches :) because it appears that the WD velociraptors I've been eyeballing are not on the supported list. Perhaps not suited for raid arrays other than zero? Seems like quite a few folks are using that flavor of raid with the raptors and none seem to be complaining. I'm leaning towards four or five 750GB WD RE4's in a raid 5 at this point. I'm opting for the lower volume drives, because my retouchers get sloppy with their file management when there is lots of space on the local drives, ha!
Actually, the Velociraptors will work as well (they're enterprise grade, and have been used by other members). What you have to keep in mind, is that they can't test every single drive made, and the newer models take time to complete the testing (why you don't find recently released enterprise disks listed, which was once the case with the 2TB RE4 for example). Enough time's passed however, that it's now passed, and on the list.

SSD's are a tad different, and so far, I don't recall any specific comments that a brand or model number don't work. But the only SSD drives Areca's tested, were Intel's IIRC.

JulianBoolean

Oct 16, 2010, 08:17 PM

Nanofrog

You continue to be amazingly generous with your time and knowledge, it's much appreciated :) I understand you are helping out lots of folks here, and it's alot to remember.

What I'm working on now : I run a 4 seat retouching studio, that lives inside inside an Ad Agency of 155 Employees. We have been making due with four 2006 MPs. It's time to replace these and set up four speed daemons. It's my responsibility to present a plan for 4 new retouching stations. It needs to be something that we'll be happy with for 3-4 years, as that is the typical cycle between upgrades at the agency. In terms of a budget, the retouching studio bills about 100k per month, so I've got quite a bit of leverage here. I'm thinking that something around 16-20K for each workstation will get the green light for funding.

Working Files Capacity Needs : 1TB Minimum, 2.5T Max. Back Up Capacity Needs : 4TB
On the individual retouching stations, I need to keep the capacity low. I know disk space is cheap these days, but If I give my guys too much space on the macs, the file management gets really sloppy. They will put off sending stuff to the shared agency server, and that means I start to get phone calls to go hunt for particular files that we worked on 6 months ago, and by that time nobody can remember the job. Keeping the space to a minimum means they must send stuff to the agency archive sooner, which puts me out of the file management business and keeps me in the making pretty pictures business.

What you helped me with before : I take work home with me, and have purchased a new 6 core for that purpose. You were really generous with your time, and worked with me quite a bit on my home configuration the previous thread linked below. Since I've had a chance to work with my 6 core a bit since that time, one of my major concerns (writing times) present in that thread have largely disappeared. I'm able to save an 8GB photoshop file on my 6core in 3 minutes without doing anything fancy, just saving it to one 7200 RPM HD. That is a real game changer. I wont needing an External PM with an 8 disk RAID 6 array save my final files to. That revelation makes itself present in my current mission as well. The studio at work is a bit warm all year round, and I can't image how hot it would be if I had another 32 drives in the room.
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=998644

Here is what I have so far,

• Mac Pro 12 Core, 2.93 Ghz
$6,200

• OWC Processor Upgrade to 3.33 Ghz
$2059

• 64GB SDRAM
$2,348

• ATI Radeon 5870 Graphics Card
$200

• Areca 1880ix Series Raid Card
• (will determine exact number of ports/model needed)
$700.00 (estimate)

----

Lower Optical Bay : Boot, Apps & Scratch

• Option 1, Boot and apps on one SSD, then stripe the remaining three for scratch.
• Option 2, Stripe all 4 SSDs, then create a small partition for Boot OS & Apps

• 4x 400GB OWC Mercury Extreme Pro RE SSD
$6,800

• Hot Swap Backplane RAID Cage (holds the 4 SSDs)
$50.00

• Nippon Labs SATA to Molex Power Adapter
$6.00

----

Internal Drives : Bays 1-4 Working Jobs
• 4x Disk (RAID5) Array, 600GB WD Velociraptor
$1120

• MaxConnect SAS/SATA BackPlane Attachment, to connect the 4 internal HDs to the Areca Card.
• Need Help which model, looks like 8 versions

----

2 Bay External PM Enclosure : Back Up

• Need help on the enclosure

• 2x WD Caviar Green HDs, JBOD.
• A Small Partition for an Emergency Bootable Clone of the OS and Apps
$220

----

$19,639.00

philipma1957

Oct 16, 2010, 08:49 PM

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816111112&cm_re=sans_digital_towerstor-_-16-111-112-_-Product I had 4 of these they are very good they will boot but they are raid0 and raid1.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816111044R&cm_re=sans_digital_2_bay-_-16-111-044R-_-Product I have two of these but an older model they will do jbod.

JulianBoolean

Oct 16, 2010, 09:40 PM

C. Alan

Oct 16, 2010, 09:56 PM

$19,639.00

Wow! That is a lot of computer horsepower, and it cost more than my car! :cool:

JulianBoolean

Oct 16, 2010, 09:59 PM

Wow! That is a lot of computer horsepower, and it cost more than my car! :cool:

Ha! more than my car too. :)

nanofrog

Oct 17, 2010, 02:05 AM

Working Files Capacity Needs : 1TB Minimum, 2.5T Max. Back Up Capacity Needs : 4TB
So I presume your intent then, is to keep moving files to the archive, and get them off the workstations. Thus not having a need for expansion for each system.

If this is incorrect, let me know.

On the individual retouching stations, I need to keep the capacity low. I know disk space is cheap these days, but If I give my guys too much space on the macs, the file management gets really sloppy. They will put off sending stuff to the shared agency server, and that means I start to get phone calls to go hunt for particular files that we worked on 6 months ago, and by that time nobody can remember the job.
Can't you automate transfers to the archive via software (then delete the originals when necessary)?

• Areca 1880ix Series Raid Card
• (will determine exact number of ports/model needed)
$700.00 (estimate)
If you're going to stick with 8x drives (3 or 4x SSD's in a stripe set, + 4x SATA disks in a level 5), and have no need for additional ports, I'd go with the ARC-1880I.

But I need to know if this isn't correct, as the wrong model is a PITA, and you'd be multiplying that by 4.

----

Lower Optical Bay : Boot, Apps & Scratch

• Option 1, Boot and apps on one SSD, then stripe the remaining three for scratch.
I prefer a separate OS/applications drive, as it's easier to recover from than if the OS is on the array, and it goes south. If the OS fails, then you stuff in a new drive, and restore from a clone.

You won't even need 3x in a stripe set IMO (no need to get scratch space faster than the data location). 3x should at or over the 700MB/s mark. Now assuming your SATA drives can do 100MB/s each, a level 5 is likely to sustain ~340MB/s or so (based on the 1680 series' performance, and the 1880 series is quicker from the available information).

So double the speed of the scratch isn't going to help, as writing the final data is the bottleneck. You've also configured a significant amount of RAM, and scratch probably won't even be needed (I'd be amazed if 64GB of RAM isn't capable of getting the efficiency of Photoshop to 100%).

• 4x 400GB OWC Mercury Extreme Pro RE SSD
$6,800
See above, and go from there.

If possible, get one system, and do some experimentation on what you actually need, as to not waste funds (makes you look really good to the boss). :D

• Hot Swap Backplane RAID Cage (holds the 4 SSDs)
$50.00

• Nippon Labs SATA to Molex Power Adapter
$6.00
These will contain SSD's perfectly, and allow for easy data connection to the card via an included cable (with the card).

The power adapter is cheap, so there's nothing to worry about (you will loose the data signal from the optical drive cable). But I presume this isn't a problem. If so, there is a solution around that too, so let me know (you have to splice 2x different cables together to make what you need, but there's no modification of the actual system = warranty remains in tact).

Internal Drives : Bays 1-4 Working Jobs
• 4x Disk (RAID5) Array, 600GB WD Velociraptor
$1120
You won't need these, though they are of smaller capacity. I'd go with standard enterprise SATA drives instead, as you're users are generating large files which need sequential throughputs, not random access (they're are fine for this). Say 1TB WD RE3's (granted, the usable capacity is 3TB, but it's not much over what you've listed).

You can can even partition them off if you wish to restrict capacity (not really a short stroke partition, as the used paritition is too large). But it will still have a positive impact on performance (just don't let them get the capacity past 50%, or they're on the inner tracks, and it continuously gets worse the fuller the array becomes).

2 Bay External PM Enclosure : Back Up

• Need help on the enclosure

• 2x WD Caviar Green HDs, JBOD.
• A Small Partition for an Emergency Bootable Clone of the OS and Apps
$220
I'd go with a larger PM enclosure (i.e 4 bay unit; example (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816111136) you'd like in terms of both function and appearance), and the newertech RAID eSATA card (here (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer%20Technology/MXPCIE6GRS/)). The reason is, most of the 2 bay units are fixed. There is a 2 bay unit that's not a PM unit (here (http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/esata/Elite-AL_Pro-RAID_Ready_Dual-Drive); 2x separate eSATA ports on the back). Combine it with a non-PM eSATA card (here (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer%20Technology/MXPCIE6GS2/)), and you'll get off cheaper, but I prefer the larger enclosure (more options).

You can stuff both the backup disks (JBOD is perfect for backups), as well as a separate disk for an OS clone (small unit that fits the bill, say 500GB at most).

Honumaui

Oct 17, 2010, 02:39 AM

been reading :)

but the only thing
Lower Optical Bay : Boot, Apps & Scratch

• Option 1, Boot and apps on one SSD, then stripe the remaining three for scratch.
• Option 2, Stripe all 4 SSDs, then create a small partition for Boot OS & Apps

agree with Nanofrog the boot on its own

with my testing everytime I tried to share the SSD scratch with boot it got slower than dedicated

sounds like they are going to be nice setups :)

also agree if you can build one and test since the testing we did back and forth really gave some real world feedback spending the coin on a test one might be the best way then replicate what you find you really need

gugucom

Oct 17, 2010, 09:16 AM

I have used Intel Gen2 SSDs with Areca's ARC 1210 without problems. You have to be more careful with permissions than using hard disks.

The other point is you cannot make the Mac Pro sleep when the RAID card is fitted.

freshface

Oct 17, 2010, 11:25 AM

Hey guys!

This is my first macrumors post since I am doing my switch from Windows PC to Mac. I have a similar shopping list like Julian so I thought I would share it. I have been discussing it with technical support staff over at OWC and they have been a real help with everything I didn't knew.

1x Mac Pro 6 core 3,3GHz
3x OWC SSD - Boot partition in RAID0, non-RE version here since there won't be much writes. I have been told that this Mac Pro has a bottleneck around 800 MB/s so having 4 or more SSDs would be a waste.
2x OWC SSD RE - Scratch partition in RAID0, mainly for Photoshop. I have been told that PS have a bottleneck around 500 MB/s for scratch partition, so again, 3 or more SSDs would be a waste. RE version here because there will be lots of writes obviously.
2x OWC SSD RE - Project partition in RAID0 - All of the project data I will be working on atm will be stored here, then moved to an offsite backup after finishing. RE version here because there will be lots of writes obviously.
1x 300GB WD VelociRaptor 10K RPM 16MB SATA-II 3 GB/s - For Windows partition - mainly for gaming, I work from home so it will be my main computer. Stuffed in the last Mac Pro bay (4th out of 4) or in the second optical bay.
1x 2TB HDD - Junk Data - Stuffed in the last Mac Pro bay (4th out of 4) or in the second optical bay.
3x ICY DOCK (from OWC here http://eshop.macsales.com/item/IcyDock/MB882SP1S2B/ ) - Will hold the 3xBOOT SSDs in the 3 (out of 4) Mac Pro bays. I believe there can be tons of issues if your boot drives will be hooked to a third party RAID card, so I think it's better to just hook it up in the "official" Mac Pro bays and save the headaches and research.
1x DX4 (from TransINTL) - Will hold the 2xSCRATCH and 2xPROJECT DATA SSDs
1x Sonnet Tempo SATA E4i ( http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Sonnet%20Technology/TSATAIIE4I/
) - This will be hooked the the DX4's 4 SSDs. This was recommended by OWC staff as a really good/affordable solution for DX4, supports RAID0 too. (avoid the mentioned HighPoint cards, it's a crap).

Other than that I will also buy another PCIe card with external 4x eSATA ports, 8TB Qx2 and some more drives in case of crash and as an offsite backup - this part probably doesn't interest you since it's a personal preference.

Here is a nice review of DX4, you can see how it's plugged in, check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhqExgv0vx8

If somebody experienced here have some tips, I would welcome it too, thanks and cheers! :)

nanofrog

Oct 17, 2010, 12:41 PM

3x OWC SSD - Boot partition in RAID0, non-RE version here since there won't be much writes. I have been told that this Mac Pro has a bottleneck around 800 MB/s so having 4 or more SSDs would be a waste.
The I/O Controller Hub has a throughput limit of ~660MB/s, not 800MB/s (no idea where you got that number from).

But running 3x SSD's in a stripe set purely for OS/applications won't be the benefit you expect, as the random access performance won't be much better than that of a single disk. Same goes for mechanical.

It's sustained throughputs that will benefit (large file transfers). So I'd go with a single SSD for this purpose (if the capacity is sufficient that way; as it can be cheaper to stripe for cost/GB reasons, depending on the actual drives considered).

Not sure what you're after here (attempting to boost random access speed or get a getter cost/GB by striping smaller disks), so clarification would help.

2x OWC SSD RE - Scratch partition in RAID0, mainly for Photoshop. I have been told that PS have a bottleneck around 500 MB/s for scratch partition, so again, 3 or more SSDs would be a waste. RE version here because there will be lots of writes obviously.
2x OWC SSD RE - Project partition in RAID0 - All of the project data I will be working on atm will be stored here, then moved to an offsite backup after finishing. RE version here because there will be lots of writes obviously.
This will be fine, as the throughput performance should be the same (similar at worst). Just keep in mind, that you will wear out SSD's for write conditions faster than a mechanical disk (not sure if you're an independent pro or highly active hobbyist).

But whether it's SSD or mechanical, disks will wear out (mechanical and/or electrical), so you have to be prepared to replace disks. If you can't afford the down time waiting for a shipment, you'd be best served by establishing a Mean Time Between Replacement (MTBR) at some fixed point. Figure 3 years for mechanical. SSD's sadly, are uncertian, as your exact usage pattern will matter significantly.

1x 300GB WD VelociRaptor 10K RPM 16MB SATA-II 3 GB/s - For Windows partition - mainly for gaming, I work from home so it will be my main computer. Stuffed in the last Mac Pro bay (4th out of 4) or in the second optical bay.
1x 2TB HDD - Junk Data - Stuffed in the last Mac Pro bay (4th out of 4) or in the second optical bay.
3x ICY DOCK (from OWC here http://eshop.macsales.com/item/IcyDock/MB882SP1S2B/ ) - Will hold the 3xBOOT SSDs in the 3 (out of 4) Mac Pro bays. I believe there can be tons of issues if your boot drives will be hooked to a third party RAID card, so I think it's better to just hook it up in the "official" Mac Pro bays and save the headaches and research.
1x DX4 (from TransINTL) - Will hold the 2xSCRATCH and 2xPROJECT DATA SSDs
I don't think you actually need that many SSD's, so you have an option.

Use a 4x 2.5" Backplane Cage in the empty optical bay, and stuff in the 4x SSD's for the Scratch and Working DATA arrays. Use 1x Icy Dock for the OS X disk in one of the HDD bays, one for the Velociraptor, and another for the Junk DATA disk. That still leaves you with one open HDD bay (future expansion, additional backup disk, or perhaps an OS clone disk).

1x Sonnet Tempo SATA E4i ( http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Sonnet%20Technology/TSATAIIE4I/
) - This will be hooked the the DX4's 4 SSDs. This was recommended by OWC staff as a really good/affordable solution for DX4, supports RAID0 too. (avoid the mentioned HighPoint cards, it's a crap).
Keep in mind, you're wanting to have 2x SATA cards (one being an eSATA model).

What you need to be aware of, is that Slots 3 & 4 share the same 4x lanes via a PCIe Switch located on the backplane board (one with the PCIe slots). So you're sharing the bandwidth, and have a loss due to switching as well. Performance may not be what you'd expect at all.

You can get around this by using Slot 2 for one of the cards, but the card linked is only SATA 3.0Gb/s (not the best for SSD's, as current models can already max out the ports), and it will require system resources to do it (not bad with stripe sets, but just so you're aware of it).

As you seem to be performance oriented, I'd recommend going with the ARC-1880I (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-1880i~7AREC03P.htm) for the 2x SSD stripe sets (put the card in Slot 2). It will take some of the load off of the system, and it will be faster than the ICH or the Sonnet card.

Other than that I will also buy another PCIe card with external 4x eSATA ports, 8TB Qx2 and some more drives in case of crash and as an offsite backup - this part probably doesn't interest you since it's a personal preference.
Why so many eSATA ports?

You only need one for that enclosure, and it doesn't actually have to support Port Multiplier chips, though can open up other options for an additional $30 now (has a hardware RAID controller in it if you use one of it's supported levels).

JulianBoolean

Oct 17, 2010, 12:57 PM

So I presume your intent then, is to keep moving files to the archive, and get them off the workstations. Thus not having a need for expansion for each system. If this is incorrect, let me know.
That is correct, no need for expansion, for the reason you've mentioned. :)

Can't you automate transfers to the archive via software (then delete the originals when necessary)?

That's a great idea in theory, but probably not practical for a number reasons. Some jobs need to stay on local drives longer than others, need to double check correct file naming convention, need to trash the old incremental saves & workups no longer needed etc.

If you're going to stick with 8x drives (3 or 4x SSD's in a stripe set, + 4x SATA disks in a level 5), and have no need for additional ports, I'd go with the ARC-1880I. But I need to know if this isn't correct, as the wrong model is a PITA, and you'd be multiplying that by 4.

Yes, 8 drives is correct. 4 SSDs on the Areca card, Bays 1-4 also on the Areca card. The only other drives will be the external 2 or 4 bay units currently under discussion.

I prefer a separate OS/applications drive, as it's easier to recover from than if the OS is on the array, and it goes south. If the OS fails, then you stuff in a new drive, and restore from a clone.

Sounds good. Will do. Done deal. :)

You won't even need 3x in a stripe set IMO (no need to get scratch space faster than the data location). 3x should at or over the 700MB/s mark. Now assuming your SATA drives can do 100MB/s each, a level 5 is likely to sustain ~340MB/s or so (based on the 1680 series' performance, and the 1880 series is quicker from the available information).

So double the speed of the scratch isn't going to help, as writing the final data is the bottleneck. You've also configured a significant amount of RAM, and scratch probably won't even be needed (I'd be amazed if 64GB of RAM isn't capable of getting the efficiency of Photoshop to 100%).

I see what you are pointing to, all the stuff mentioned really underscores the need to do some initial testing on one workstation first. If we assume that 64GB of ram will be sufficient, and I never hit the scratch disks, then the large volume SSDs are wasteful spending.

However, that's not something I'm willing to assume without some testing. Just the other day, I had a 12GB image and a 5GB image open at the same time. If I do run out of RAM, the SSDs will be nice to have. The thinking behind getting the large volume SSDs, rather than the smaller, cheaper ones, is that we might hammering those things 10 hours a day for 3-4 years. More cells to spread out the wear and tear over time. I know the OWC RE versions come with a five year warranty, but not sure how that would work. SSDs will slowly degrade over time. It's not like they suddenly a HD that just dies and is gone for good. I'd hate to go back and ask for more funding in a year and a half because the SSDs I talked everybody into aren't working out.

Regarding the scratch speed of the 3 SSDs being way higher than the HDs I will be reading from and writing to, I see your point, and it's a good one. But consider that I might open an image once in the morning, hit the scratch disk about 100 times (if my history pallete is set to save 100 iterations) and I'm running filters, rotating, merging, brushing etc. I might hit the scratch drive constantly during retouching. But will only open once, and save every 20 minutes or so.

If possible, get one system, and do some experimentation on what you actually need, as to not waste funds (makes you look really good to the boss). :D

Yes! Effing awesome suggestion! :eek: :D I will do this. Some might think it's like being a kid in a candy store, being able to get what ever you want. But it's quite a stressful process for me. I've learned so much in a short amount of time by hanging out here, but I still have a lot to learn. Three months ago, I was like "what's a raid card?". (Giggle) I'm creative by nature, and not technical minded at all. Mistakes can be expensive, and there's a lot of pressure on me to do this right. Especially since the IT guy and I are not not seeing eye to eye on anything. He knows servers, but not much about Macs. I have to sell him on configuration concepts, and a big freaking budget, without making him feel look like an idiot, or myself look like and idiot by setting up something that does not work, or is a misplaced allocation of funds. I'm going slow, not rushing, even with my own system at home, making every upgrade a part of an thought out, overall long term plan.

These will contain SSD's perfectly, and allow for easy data connection to the card via an included cable (with the card).

The power adapter is cheap, so there's nothing to worry about (you will loose the data signal from the optical drive cable). But I presume this isn't a problem. If so, there is a solution around that too, so let me know (you have to splice 2x different cables together to make what you need, but there's no modification of the actual system = warranty remains in tact).

Okay. Agreed. Done Deal. :) I only need to read or write DVDs one in blue moon. I take everything home, and bring it back on a portable FW drive. I do need the top tray some of the time, but the lower optical bay would be empty, if not for the 4 SSDs that are going in there.

You won't need these, (velociraptors) though they are of smaller capacity. I'd go with standard enterprise SATA drives instead, as you're users are generating large files which need sequential throughputs, not random access (they're are fine for this). Say 1TB WD RE3's (granted, the usable capacity is 3TB, but it's not much over what you've listed).

You can can even partition them off if you wish to restrict capacity (not really a short stroke partition, as the used partiition is too large). But it will still have a positive impact on performance (just don't let them get the capacity past 50%, or they're on the inner tracks, and it continuously gets worse the fuller the array becomes).

Sounds good. My first choice would have been the RE3s or RE4s as well. But they would be a nice middle ground compromise for my best guy who really wanted 1500k drives. How can I sell him on the RE3s instead of the Raptors?

I'd go with a larger PM enclosure (i.e 4 bay unit; example (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816111136) you'd like in terms of both function and appearance), and the newertech RAID eSATA card (here (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer%20Technology/MXPCIE6GRS/)). The reason is, most of the 2 bay units are fixed. There is a 2 bay unit that's not a PM unit (here (http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/esata/Elite-AL_Pro-RAID_Ready_Dual-Drive); 2x separate eSATA ports on the back). Combine it with a non-PM eSATA card (here (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer%20Technology/MXPCIE6GS2/)), and you'll get off cheaper, but I prefer the larger enclosure (more options).

Both options look good, :) will consider.

You can stuff both the backup disks (JBOD is perfect for backups), as well as a separate disk for an OS clone (small unit that fits the bill, say 500GB at most).

Agreed. :) Can actually fit the OS and APPS on 25GB, now currently planning to put that on one 50GB OWC RE SSD, Intstead of the 400GB version, will save some green backs on that.

Honumaui, Nanofrog - I'd like you both to PM me a way for me to send you a personal check. You've both been extremely helpful to me, and I think you both should be in / get back into the consulting business. Honomaui would need an assistant to cut the number of smiley face emoticons down by at least 50% in the formal business plans, but other that that, he's good to go. :)

Thanks, is not enough thanks!

- Julian

Honumaui

Oct 17, 2010, 01:09 PM

few thoughts :)

3x OWC SSD - Boot partition in RAID0, non-RE version here since there won't be much writes. I have been told that this Mac Pro has a bottleneck around 800 MB/s so having 4 or more SSDs would be a waste.
as mentioned just use a single :) especially on boot

2x OWC SSD RE - Scratch partition in RAID0, mainly for Photoshop. I have been told that PS have a bottleneck around 500 MB/s for scratch partition, so again, 3 or more SSDs would be a waste. RE version here because there will be lots of writes obviously.
not sure where these numbers are coming from ?
but 2 should do you just fine and more memory also you want to really check efficiency of your files and know why you are getting what you are ? so even 1 SSD might do the job ?

2x OWC SSD RE - Project partition in RAID0 - All of the project data I will be working on atm will be stored here, then moved to an offsite backup after finishing. RE version here because there will be lots of writes obviously.

the time you save then moving stuff around will be lost I bet ? better off just to build up a simple raid 10 get some speed and safety for main data or get a decent raid card and go external :)

they way you say partition ? are you getting 2 discs for working and 2 for scratch meaning 4 total ?
or you saying 2 total and you are going to cut that raid 0 setup into two partitions ? one for scratch one for data ? if so dont do this :)

1x 300GB WD VelociRaptor 10K RPM 16MB SATA-II 3 GB/s - For Windows partition - mainly for gaming, I work from home so it will be my main computer. Stuffed in the last Mac Pro bay (4th out of 4) or in the second optical bay.
sounds fine

1x 2TB HDD - Junk Data - Stuffed in the last Mac Pro bay (4th out of 4) or in the second optical bay.

sound fine

3x ICY DOCK (from OWC here http://eshop.macsales.com/item/IcyDock/MB882SP1S2B/ ) - Will hold the 3xBOOT SSDs in the 3 (out of 4) Mac Pro bays. I believe there can be tons of issues if your boot drives will be hooked to a third party RAID card, so I think it's better to just hook it up in the "official" Mac Pro bays and save the headaches and research.

nanofrog

Oct 17, 2010, 02:01 PM

That's a great idea in theory, but probably not practical for a number reasons. Some jobs need to stay on local drives longer than others, need to double check correct file naming convention, need to trash the old incremental saves & workups no longer needed etc.
I know it's not always possible, so it was just a thought to save some time and aggravation (figured you could set the automation late, based on worst case completion times so you didn't have to do it by hand).

Yes, 8 drives is correct. 4 SSD's on the Areca card, Bays 1-4 also on the Areca card. The only other drives will be the external 2 or 4 bay units currently under discussion.
I'd put 7x on the Areca, and 1x (OS/applications drive) on the ICH.

But the ARC-1880 can boot an array or single disk (you'd have to flash it with EFI firmware file). But there'll be a little more work to do this (involves the flashing, cloning, and perhaps a tad more physical location work), but most importantly, on the remote chance the card dies, you can't boot the system (tends to make a major difference in time and effort spent getting the system back up and running again).

I see what you are pointing to, all the stuff mentioned really underscores the need to do some initial testing on one workstation first. If we assume that 64GB of ram will be sufficient, and I never hit the scratch disks, then the large volume SSD's are wasteful spending.
I'm thinking that 64GB is overkill, not insufficient (suspect with the information provided so far, that 32GB would be quite enough <8x DIMM slots filled>, perhaps 24GB <triple channel per memory controller>; which would allow you to stay with UDIMM's, which are definitely cheaper). :)

However, that's not something I'm willing to assume without some testing.
Which is precisely why I mentioned it. :D RAM, especially 8GB RDIMM's, as well as SSD's are a tad on the expensive side yet.

Granted, overkill will get you some nice systems, but your employers won't be too happy about it if they discover that there were thousands of dollars spent needlessly. Given the current job market, .... well, you get the idea. :eek: ;) :p

Just the other day, I had a 12GB image and a 5GB image open at the same time. If I do run out of RAM, the SSD's will be nice to have. The thinking behind getting the large volume SSD's, rather than the smaller, cheaper ones, is that we might hammering those things 10 hours a day for 3-4 years. More cells to spread out the wear and tear over time. I know the OWC RE versions come with a five year warranty, but not sure how that would work. SSD's will slowly degrade over time. It's not like they suddenly a HD that just dies and is gone for good. I'd hate to go back and ask for more funding in a year and a half because the SSD's I talked everybody into aren't working out.
The RE versions have more memory available for over-provisioning (Pro units = 7%, RE = 28%), so given you're looking for 3 - 4 years, I'd go with the RE versions. What you need to keep in mind, is they're still MLC based, which is aimed at consumer usage. SLC is aimed at enterprise usage, but it's also more expensive per GB, and they're not as common.

What I can't get to the point of, is which you'd really need, as I've no idea what your scratch usage will actually be (how much capacity per day is needed, not hours). Since the scratch space has the entire array do use, it will rotate between every cell before any are written to again, and so on. So if say you use 2x RE 50GB units (100GB total capacity), and only write a fraction of that per day, you'd be fine for 3 years I think. It's when you go over that per day (say 1TB per day), that you're cutting the lifespan. Unfortunately, there's no hard real world data out, so it's a bit hard to predict ("back of envelope" calculations are all that's possible right now).

This is why the RAM capacity is critical, as if you've enough, you won't need to use the scratch space that often, if at all (ideally, you want the efficiency rating under Photoshop at 100% = scratch never used). I still realize it's a good idea to have it (conditions where the average RAM usage that works say 99.9% of the time will be exceeded). RAM is also faster, so if you get a sufficient RAM capacity, I think you'll be fine with the RE versions.

BTW, I'd plan a 3 year MTBR for your drives (SSD or enterprise mechanical in this case), and it's a good idea to keep a spare on hand. Nothing sucks more (and makes you look like an idiot), than a system that's not running because you're waiting on replacements for parts you spec'd out.

Regarding the scratch speed of the 3 SSD's being way higher than the HDs I will be reading from and writing to, I see your point, and it's a good one. But consider that I might open an image once in the morning, hit the scratch disk about 100 times (if my history pallete is set to save 100 iterations) and I'm running filters, rotating, merging, brushing etc. I might hit the scratch drive constantly during retouching. But will only open once, and save every 20 minutes or so.
See above.

You need to test out the average usage (software, including filters,... on a typical large file) to get your memory usage requirement for a typical job. If the efficiency is under 100%, you can use that to calculate what you'd need, and then round up to the configuration that best fits the new systems (you still add a scratch space, but you don't need to go crazy, and there's other benefits in performance and probably cost savings as well, as SSD's wear out; RAM lasts much longer).

I think your existing equipment can give a good idea, and can let you nail down your memory configuration based (i.e. do you need 4 GB UDIMM or 8GB RDIMM sticks to get the job done without overspending?). Doing this now, will save you headaches, time, and embarrassment down the road.

Yes! Effing awesome suggestion! :eek: :D I will do this. Some might think it's like being a kid in a candy store, being able to get what ever you want. But it's quite a stressful process for me. I've learned so much in a short amount of time by hanging out here. Three months ago, I was like "what's a raid card". (Giggle) Mistakes can be expensive, and there's alot of pressure on me to do this right. Especially since the IT guy and I are not not seeing eye to eye on anything. He knows servers, but not much about macs. I have to sell him on configuration concepts, and a big freaking budget, without making him feel look like an idiot, or myself look like and idiot by setting up something that does not work, or is a misplaced allocation of funds.
Try and see if you can approach him on how to evaluate memory requirements, RAID levels (if you haven't already),... Basically, make the guy an ally, not an enemy. Better for a working relationship down the road too (perhaps the concept of both of you learning would be an approach, as I'll presume for the moment he knows more than just networking, just has a "black hole" in his knowledge when it comes to a Mac; not all do though).

Sounds good. My first choice would have been the RE3s or RE4s as well. But they would be a nice middle ground compromise for my best guy who really wanted 1500k drives. How can I sell him on the RE3s instead of the Raptors?
Explain that the VR's are good for random access, but standard 7200RPM SATA are fine for sustained throughputs and they have a better cost/performance ratio for this area as a result; it is a business afterall... (VR's may be a tad faster than the RE3 for sustained as well, but they're cheaper/GB).

Let him dig up the proof to support his argument if there's logic to it (i.e. he can prove that the independent benchmarks for the VR's are sufficient to warrant using those instead of the REx models).

Honumaui

Oct 17, 2010, 02:33 PM

some thoughts on scratch discs and PS for others that might also be reading ;)

the second you open PS it allocates a piece of scratch so SSD at least one is nice to have since it will speed that up

for smaller things memory as we know is best and when it hits scratch then we want it as fast as we can

going past as we found in other tests you get to a point like writing large files where scratch is playing less a roll and PS is the bottleneck on the large saves

I find the have a size of scratch that fits most of the work that matters and assign a second scratch that carries over the rest if and when it needs it ?

this way you can get away with a bit less on scratch and save the money and really if you are hitting that much chances are so many other things are bottlenecking in the end things are not quicker by that much anyway

nanofrog

Oct 17, 2010, 03:24 PM

the second you open PS it allocates a piece of scratch so SSD at least one is nice to have since it will speed that up
So you're saying that PS goes to scratch even if there's sufficient RAM that there's no need to do so (actually performing page outs)?

Or is it just looking for it?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

for smaller things memory as we know is best and when it hits scratch then we want it as fast as we can
Of course. I'm hoping to help him get a system running that will keep the scratch usage to a minumum though, without overspending on RAM or SSD's.

8GB RDIMM's aren't cheap. So if 4GB UDIMM's will be sufficient to get the capacity where it needs to be (or worst case, 8GB RDIMM's are required, perhaps 1x DIMM can remain open per CPU).

Honumaui

Oct 17, 2010, 03:51 PM

alphaod

Oct 17, 2010, 04:00 PM

JulianBoolean

Oct 17, 2010, 04:47 PM

I see you picked the OWC SSDs for your RAID. Please update when you have tested the Areca ARC1880 for that purpose and I'm looking for a controller that actually works with my SSDs well.

My only concern here is how you'll fit everything. I myself had a very hard time fitting everything in my computer and even finding space for many external enclosures.

alphaod

Yes, no problem. Will be sure to post how the SSDs work with the 1800. :) Fitting everything you need in the box is for sure a dilemma, but the 4 SSDs in the lower optical bay, seems like an elegant, tidy solution to me. I'll be sure to post any problems, successes etc.

-Julian

freshface

Oct 17, 2010, 04:54 PM

Thank you very much for your replies guys, I really appreciate it!

To give you more background about me:

I am an independent creative, I run tons of apps at the same time, I spent most of my time in Photoshop. Each project takes me around 1-4 months so moving the files from PROJECT DATA PARTITION would occur only a few times per year. I need a snappy system in general and a high performance in Photoshop. In Photoshop, I work with lowres files around 2000x4000px, but with hundreds of really small layers in a single file. My PS history is set to 100 states. My last project file had around 300 layers, but only because my PC was laggish. Not to mention I would like to have more than 1 such files opened at the same time. So if I would have an ideal environment (the one I am trying to create right now), I would go with much more layers. That's the workflow that suits me best personally, I can understand someone can't imagine that, especially the huge number of layers.

The thing is I don't have the Mac Pro yet so I can't do any tests. I've already ordered it 2 weeks ago, should arrive in about 2-4 weeks from now (I am from Europe). I also do 3D in C4D, but that's just a hobby since I am still a total beginner at it.

I work from home and I also play latest games, that's why I need a WINDOWS PARTITION and fast boots to switch between. I also need tons of storage for movies, music, photos, etc -> that's why the external 8TB Qx2 from OWC in RAID5 seamed like a good solution, especially because it's external. That's probably all I could say to help understand what I am trying to achieve with this machine.

Now a bit more technical info:

The OSX boot partition should be around 150-300GB (can't be really sure, it will be my first Mac and the huge WINDOWS games will be on another HDD) - that's why my first thought would be to get more smaller SSDs in RAID0. In terms of price, it seams like it doesn't matter much if it's one big or more with smaller size. Please correct me anytime I say something stupid, I don't have much knowledge/experience in hardware, you guys seam like you know what you are talking about.

Scratch space doesn't have to be big, I "think" 50GB SSD should be more than enough in terms of space.

Same goes for one project folder, 50GB (smallest RE SSD) is more than enough.

I've ordered the Hex MP, 5870, with 3GB of RAM - the question is how much RAM I need right?

Can you recommend some software or methods I should try once the MP arrives? MP arrives with only 3GB of RAM - not sure if that's not a problem for testing. I would love to run some tests to be able to precisely decide what I really need and what not. The shopping list I gave you in my first post was just based on what I've collected from reading some stuff online, definitely not final list. That's why I think I will need to run a few tests that will fit to my workflow.

Since I am not from USA, ordering from OWC or TRANSINTL, a few parts a time can be a little pricey and takes longer, but it shouldn't be a problem either, so if you can suggest what parts to buy first and then do some tests on it, I would love to hear your thoughts. I don't want to overshoot it with power I won't use or be just wasted by some bottlenecks in any part of MP.

they way you say partition ? are you getting 2 discs for working and 2 for scratch meaning 4 total ?
or you saying 2 total and you are going to cut that raid 0 setup into two partitions ? one for scratch one for data ? if so dont do this

I've meant 4x SSD by that. 2x SSD for SCRATCH in RAID0 and 2x SSD for DATA in RAID0.

not sure where these numbers are coming from ?
but 2 should do you just fine and more memory also you want to really check efficiency of your files and know why you are getting what you are ? so even 1 SSD might do the job ?

The 500MB/s max throughput of PS's scratch was told to me by OWC tech staff, they said the guy from macperformanceguide.com tested it. It's not exact number of course, just a rough estimate of what I remember from our online chat few weeks ago.

What you need to be aware of, is that Slots 3 & 4 share the same 4x lanes via a PCIe Switch located on the backplane board (one with the PCIe slots). So you're sharing the bandwidth, and have a loss due to switching as well. Performance may not be what you'd expect at all.

You can get around this by using Slot 2 for one of the cards, but the card linked is only SATA 3.0Gb/s (not the best for SSD's, as current models can already max out the ports), and it will require system resources to do it (not bad with stripe sets, but just so you're aware of it).

Again, I was told by OWC that each lane in a PCIe 2.0 slot handles up to 500MB/s. So if it's 4x, then there shouldn't be a problem of running 4 internal SSDs out of it right? Or am I mistaken? Please correct me.

Why do you think the Sonnet E4i wouldn't be good/fast enough for 4x SSD? This card could be plugged in SLOT2 (16x). I was also told that this card doesn't support booting - not an issue since I can have boot SSDs in MP bays.

The external SATA card has only 2 ports (first for Qx2, second for naked HDD dock station for doing backups). I am really sorry I've noted it wrong (I've said it has 4 ports in my previous post). Here it is: http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer%20Technology/MXPCIE6GS2/

Thanks again for taking the time to post your suggestions and help me out, this is one of the best and knowledgeable communities I've ever seen online.

P.S: Not sure if it would be better to start my own thread since I don't want to hijack Julian's one here -> that wouldn't be nice :) So please just tell me and I will move it to a separate thread, thanks.

JulianBoolean

Oct 17, 2010, 05:06 PM

not sure if this was linked to ? but interesting to see the charts and memory

http://macperformanceguide.com/Reviews-MacProWestmere-Photoshop-diglloydHuge.html

Exactly. That is the chart that is often overlooked. Everybody seems in mutual agreement that the Hex core is the thing to have, and 32GB is sufficient. The hex does indeed outshine the competition on the test for medium sized images. But in stands in the middle of the pack (even with 2x SSD for scratch and 32GB of ram) on the test for huge images. For Huge images, and I'll guess 3GB or above, clock speed plays a minor role, and RAM is KING. I routinely work on 3-12 GB images.

Having said all of that, I'm currently typing this on my 6 core with 32GB of ram. I can do some testing and report back about how often, and at what point I run out of ram and hit the scratch.

I know the proposed setup seems like overkill, but spend a week in my shoes and you'd understand. :) I routinely am handed jobs that I've estimated will take 80 Hours. By the time the estimate is approved, and I start working, the job needs to release in 3 days. 80 Hours stuffed into three days is not comfortable. In the meantime, I'm managing three retouchers, and trying to close the deal on another three projects near completion. On top of that, the agency has recently taken on a huge account that will increase the workload by 1/3. It's effing crazy time! I know Honomaui probably gets it, but I don't its easily understood how painful things can get working on big images, unless you've been there yourself.

-JB

Pressure

Oct 17, 2010, 05:13 PM

I've ordered the Hex MP, 5870, with 3GB of RAM - the question is how much RAM I need right?

3GB is a laughable amount given your workload. So the short answer is as much ram as you can afford.

But I would really try and open one of your projects and look under Activity Monitor to see how many Page Outs you are getting, due to insufficient memory causing swapping to the harddrive (although it does sound it will be speedy if your scratch drive is a Solid State Disk array).

freshface

Oct 17, 2010, 05:41 PM

3GB is a laughable amount given your workload. So the short answer is as much ram as you can afford.

But I would really try and open one of your projects and look under Activity Monitor to see how many Page Outs you are getting, due to insufficient memory causing swapping to the harddrive (although it does sound it will be speedy if your scratch drive is a Solid State Disk array).

I've only ordered the 3GB because I couldn't order 0GB. I of course intent to trash all the Apple RAM and buy a third party modules, probably from OWC (they have 8GB modules for Hex MP) here: http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memory/Mac-Pro-Memory#1333-memory

Apple RAM is just overpriced...

I will probably buy 1 or 2 of these 8GB RAM modules at first, then do some tests like you've suggested, thanks for that!

nanofrog

Oct 17, 2010, 05:41 PM

yes it creates a small write to disc creating the scratch forgot how many megs but does write to disc :) on open this is the key thing not on the first document but the second you open PS so not using it as much as setting it up to be used if needed :)

think of it as finding and testing the drive so its in the ready state if it needs to go to scratch :)
So it's just an initialization process, not performing page outs when they're not needed.

That's fine. I'm just trying to help come up with a system that's going to run as quickly as possible and use the equipment/budget as efficiently as possible.

alphaod

Yes, no problem. Will be sure to post how the SSDs work with the 1800. :) Fitting everything you need in the box is for sure a dilemma, but the 4 SSDs in the lower optical bay, seems like an elegant, tidy solution to me. I'll be sure to post any problems, successes etc.
There is some risk involved with SSD's, as there's little information of tested drives (Intel only from Areca, and the card series is rather new). So there's not a lot of independent information available.

Another reason to get a single system up, and test (not just the RAM, but even just getting a pair of the OWC SSD's to see if they'll even work with the card). Saves more hassle down the road if there's a problem (fewer returns, less $$$ in terms of restocking fees and shipping costs).

Again, I was told by OWC that each lane in a PCIe 2.0 slot handles up to 500MB/s. So if it's 4x, then there shouldn't be a problem of running 4 internal SSDs out of it right? Or am I mistaken? Please correct me.

Why do you think the Sonnet E4i wouldn't be good/fast enough for 4x SSD?

You also have to take the card into consideration (what PCIe spec does it comply with?). In this case, it's only good for 250MB/s per lane, and as you load the controller, it will slow down in RAID when running SSD's (same thing happens with the ICH when running SSD's; the controllers weren't designed for SSD - they're too old). As it's a 4x port card, you'd only be able to eek out 1GB/s max, but you won't see that either (latency).

Which is why you want 6.0Gb/s if possible. The RAID card linked is more than that of course, as it has separate processors and cache as well (combined with additional features you can't get for a software implementation, though for RAID 0, they won't really help you, as their aim is primarily recovery).

The Sonnet would work, but not as well as you'd expect. You'll have to weigh your budget and requirements, and choose the best balance (the hard part at this stage).

This card could be plugged in SLOT2 (16x). I was also told that this card doesn't support booting - not an issue since I can have boot SSDs in MP bays.
See above. As per booting, No, it can't do that either. So if you use it, you'll need a separate boot disk attached to the ICH in the MP.

The external SATA card has only 2 ports (first for Qx2, second for naked HDD dock station for doing backups). I am really sorry I've noted it wrong (I've said it has 4 ports in my previous post). Here it is: http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer%20Technology/MXPCIE6GS2/
The newertech cards are decent, though they won't boot OS X either (something to keep in mind). The only bootable eSATA card I'm aware of is from Highpoint, and I wouldn't recommend using their gear (I don't trust them well at all, as they use multiple ODM's for their products, and tend not to have a clue when contacting them for support).

P.S: Not sure if it would be better to start my own thread since I don't want to hijack Julian's one here -> that wouldn't be nice :) So please just tell me and I will move it to a separate thread, thanks.
Might not be a bad idea.

Exactly. That is the chart that is often overlooked. Everybody seems in mutual agreement that the Hex core is the thing to have, and 32GB is sufficient. The hex does indeed outshine the competition on the test for medium sized images. But in stands in the middle of the pack (even with 2x SSD for scratch and 32GB of ram) on the test for huge images. For Huge images, and I'll guess 3GB or above, clock speed plays a minor role, and RAM is KING. I routinely work on 3-12 GB images.

Having said all of that, I'm currently typing this on my 6 core with 32GB of ram. I can do some testing and report back about how often, and at what point I run out of ram and hit the scratch.

I know the proposed setup seems like overkill, but spend a week in my shoes and you'd understand. :) I routinely am handed jobs that I've estimated will take 80 Hours. By the time the estimate is approved, and I start working, the job needs to release in 3 days. 80 Hours stuffed into three days is not comfortable. In the meantime, I'm managing three retouchers, and trying to close the deal on another three projects near completion. On top of that, the agency has recently taken on a huge account that will increase the workload by 1/3. It's effing crazy time!
If you can prove it's beneficial to have all of it (64GB of RAM), then go for it. It's justifiable for the company you work for. :D

Yet another reason for starting with one unit, test the devil out of it, and go from there. Nothing beats real world testing under your specific usage conditions. ;)

Your system at home may actually be able to act as a test bed beautifully in this case, as it's the from the same architecture family (just one CPU, so only a single QPI channel v. 2x the Core counts, QPI channels, and cores, if comparing equal core per die parts).

I await the results. :)

Honumaui

Oct 17, 2010, 05:59 PM

Exactly.

I know the proposed setup seems like overkill, but spend a week in my shoes and you'd understand. :) I routinely am handed jobs that I've estimated will take 80 Hours. By the time the estimate is approved, and I start working, the job needs to release in 3 days. 80 Hours stuffed into three days is not comfortable. In the meantime, I'm managing three retouchers, and trying to close the deal on another three projects near completion. On top of that, the agency has recently taken on a huge account that will increase the workload by 1/3. It's effing crazy time! I know Honomaui probably gets it, but I don't its easily understood how painful things can get working on big images, unless you've been there yourself.

-JB

I hear ya :)

lucky for me no more big images :) but lots of 300 GB size these days 100+ a day ? efficiency in things where I can shave a second per image adds up

I know big stuff its the grind !!!!!!!!!!! those seconds that become minutes become hours that pressure of clients I WANT IT NOW !!!! WHERE IS IT !!!!

AHHHHHHHHH

looking at my job list for this week :)
10 clients 23 jobs and the week has not started since I will get more every day :) and I am already behind !!!!!
and trying to finish up last weeks tonight :)

I hear your pain :)

freshface

Oct 17, 2010, 06:08 PM

I've made a new thread here http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1032398 so I won't clutter this one. Thanks again guys for your help so far and sorry Julian for using your thread here. If anybody has some tips on how should I proceed and what tests/apps to run to decide what to buy, I would love to hear them, thank you! :)

JulianBoolean

Oct 17, 2010, 09:51 PM

JulianBoolean

Oct 17, 2010, 09:55 PM

Nano,

I did read your post, really good stuff in there, thanks! and got your PM. I'm currently testing out my ram and scratch disk. Trying to figure out exactly when and how the scratch kicks in, and when ram runs out. Will be back with answers to that question and ready to discuss further.

JB

nanofrog

Oct 18, 2010, 02:29 AM

JulianBoolean

Oct 18, 2010, 10:18 PM

Okay,

I'm back after having done a little testing, and a little more digging around the Mac Performance Guide. The clear answer is that I will need, and use, 64GB of RAM. Nanofrog has suggested I should be able to prove this to my employer who will be footing the bill here, and that's a great suggestion. I found pretty clear evidence on the MPG site, and confirmed it with my own system (hex core with 32GB ram) at home.

1st Test, RAM Usage : I used the down loadable script for the "photoshop huge" test. Studied the script, and found It's a 6 GB file. Opened it as a six GB file and without doing anything, it opened and my info pallete shows 81% efficiency. Something is hitting the scratch right away, automatically. I think this is what honomaui was mentioning previously.

Interesting thing happens after that. I make a brush stroke, and create a new guide, and the efficiency goes to 100%. Go figure. So I continue making brush strokes and the efficiency goes down to 98 - 97 - 96... after like 20 brush strokes I get it down to 94%. I convert the whole thing to CMYK color, run a filter, then BOINK it drops to 32%! And I'm also watching the green area on the activity monitor shrink as well. After a few more moves, I've got it down to 18%, and a razor thin sliver of green on my activity monitor. I killed my 32GB of ram in about 10-15 minutes. These big files are just killers. I actually don't need the info pallete, or the acitivity monitor. I can hear that scratch drive purring away like cat in the morning sun.

I'm planning on printing and art boarding some of these findings so as to have it as part of the upgrade proposal. The IT guy wanted to give me a 12 core with 6GB of ram. He figured the extra cores would help out. Needless to say, I need to do some convincing on this matter.

http://macperformanceguide.com/Reviews-MacProWestmere-Photoshop-diglloydHuge.html
http://macperformanceguide.com/OptimizingPhotoshop-TestResults.html

- Julian

nanofrog

Oct 18, 2010, 10:49 PM

I'm back after having done a little testing, and a little more digging around the Mac Performance Guide. The clear answer is that I will need, and use, 64GB of RAM. Nanofrog has suggested I should be able to prove this to my employer who will be footing the bill here, and that's a great suggestion. I found pretty clear evidence on the MPG site, and confirmed it with my own system (hex core with 32GB ram) at home.

1st Test, RAM Usage : I used the down loadable script for the "photoshop huge" test. Studied the script, and found It's a 6 GB file. Opened it as a six GB file and without doing anything, it opened and my info pallete shows 81% efficiency. Something is hitting the scratch right away, automatically. I think this is what honomaui was mentioning previously.

Interesting thing happens after that. I make a brush stroke, and create a new guide, and the efficiency goes to 100%. Go figure. So I continue making brush strokes and the efficiency goes down to 98 - 97 - 96... after like 20 brush strokes I get it down to 94%. I convert the whole thing to CMYK color, run a filter, then BOINK it drops to 32%! And I'm also watching the green area on the activity monitor shrink as well. After a few more moves, I've got it down to 18%, and a razor thin sliver of green on my activity monitor. I killed my 32GB of ram in about 10-15 minutes. These big files are just killers. I actually don't need the info pallete, or the acitivity monitor. I can hear that scratch drive purring away like cat in the morning sun.

I'm planning on printing and art boarding some of these findings so as to have it as part of the upgrade proposal. The IT guy wanted to give me a 12 core with 6GB of ram. He figured the extra cores would help out. Needless to say, I need to do some convincing on this matter.
Is your typical project file that size or larger? Or smaller?

Just curious, as you may need to bring in some jobs that have been done at work (specific usage), rather than DigiLloyd's test file (more accurate test).

JulianBoolean

Oct 18, 2010, 11:00 PM

nanofrog

Oct 18, 2010, 11:09 PM

.

2nd Test : Speed

1. The fastest recorded time on the MPG site for running the Huge image test is 112 seconds. The speed champ is a 2009 2.93 Nehalem 8 core with 64GB of ram, CS5, and 2x SSDs for scratch. Interesting to note that the 12 Core 3.33 is slower by a hair. Too much overhead.

2. The slowest time is 500 seconds (8.33 Minutes), from a 2010 imac with with 16GB of RAM, CS5, and 2x SSD scratch.

3. Now this is a real eye opener. My 2006 MP with 8GB of RAM, CS4, and 2x HD for scratch does that same test in 2,925 seconds(48 Minutes) :eek:

4. Also an eye opener. My 2010 Hex Core, with 32GB ram, CS3, and 1x HD scratch, completes the test in 1,172 seconds. Twice as slow as a pimped out imac! The gap is easy to explain here however. CS4 is 17% faster than CS3. CS5 is (depending upon the task) 1.4 to 2.5 times faster than CS4. And 1x HD vs 2x SSDs for scratch just isnt a fair fight at all.

5. My Hex Core with 8GB ram = 1,704 seconds.

6. My Hex Core with 3GB ram = 2,181 seconds.

My personal take away from this is, that a six core with the stock 3GB of ram is faster in a way that is very perceptable compared to the 1st Gen mp with more than double the ram. However, 64 Bit CS5, and 2x SSD scratch disks are a huge piece of the speed puzzle. Just throwing the 32GB on there only gets you so far. And not as far as you might think.
Not a problem. I'm just trying to get you to test out existing work that's been generated by your company, rather than just DigiLloyd's test files, as they may not be that similar, save being large (no idea as to layers,...).

Expanding your test data will give you a clearer picture as to the system resources needed for what the system's you're creating will actually be used for.

In the end, it just gives you more proof to support your case at work (walk them through all the testing,...). Reduces the potential of anyone claiming fault with your methodology, which would result in wasted financial resources. ;)

JulianBoolean

Oct 18, 2010, 11:17 PM

Is your typical project file that size or larger? Or smaller?

Just curious, as you may need to bring in some jobs that have been done at work (specific usage), rather than DigiLloyd's test file (more accurate test).

Yup, I already have those items in hand to demonstrate that we do routinely work on 6GB files. I have screen grabs of historical released jobs on the server and screen grabs of recently released projects. And I'll make my screen grabs more about actual jobs, that they can relate to, and less about the MPG tests. All due to good coaching on your part. :)

Thanks!

nanofrog

Oct 18, 2010, 11:22 PM

Yup, I already have those items in hand to demonstrate that we do routinely work on 6GB files. I have screen grabs of historical released jobs on the server and screen grabs of recently released projects.
Great. :)

Run tests on those files, and see what happens (likely will correlate with DigiLloyd's results, but there may be differences as to the details, such as filters, layers,...) that could make a significant difference enough to change the results. But specific testing for your usage is always best, not on a test file generated by others when possible.

At any rate, you'll have sufficient proof to support your recommendations (they may not like the sticker shock, but you've done your research properly). :D

JulianBoolean

Oct 18, 2010, 11:34 PM

I've also been working on the pricing, and by going with the Re3 drives instead of the raptors, and by going with 200GB SSDs instead of 400GB, I've gotten the price down by 5K.

- Currently investigating 1880 card suitablility with owc SSDs, I've posted at the Areca forum.

- Currently investigating whether or not photoshop has a 500MB/s bottle neck with scratch. Hadn't heard that before.

I'm off to bed, will be back tommorow pm. Thanks again for your continued support. :)

-Julian

• Mac Pro 12 Core, 2.93 Ghz
$6,200

• Apple Care Protection Plan
$200.00

• OWC Processor Upgrade to 3.33 Ghz
$2059

• 64GB SDRAM
$2,348

• ATI Radeon 5870 Graphics Card
$200

• Areca 1880ix Series Raid Card
• (will determine exact number of ports/model needed)
$700.00 (estimate)

----

Lower Optical Bay : Boot, Apps & Scratch

• Boot and apps on one SSD, then stripe the remaining three for scratch.

• 1x 50GB OWC Mercury Extreme Pro RE SSD (OS + Apps)
$190.00

• 3x 200GB OWC OWC Mercury Extreme Pro RE SSD
$1,950

• Backplane RAID Cage (holds the 4 SSDs In the lower optical bay)
$50.00

• Nippon Labs SATA to Molex Power Adapter
$6.00

----

Internal Drives : Bays 1-4 Working Jobs

• 4x Disk (RAID5) Array, 750GB Western Digital RE3
$440

• MaxConnect SAS/SATA BackPlane Attachment, to connect the 4 internal HDs to the Areca Card.
$120

----

2 Bay External PM Enclosure : 4TB Back Up

• OWC Mercury Elite-AlPro, Dual Drive External, Quad Interface
$380.00

------

$ 14,843.00

nanofrog

Oct 19, 2010, 12:10 AM

I've also been working on the pricing, and by going with the Re3 drives instead of the raptors, and by going with 200GB SSDs instead of 400GB, I've gotten the price down by 5K.
Drive selection can have a substantial influence on cost. ;)

Good job shaving off $5k per system = $20k total savings (boss should like that). :D

- Currently investigating 1880 card suitablility with owc SSDs, I've posted at the Areca forum.
You'd be better off looking at Xtreme systems (here (http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=258008&page=11) in particular) or Storage Review.

I've noticed they've gotten the Vertex2's, C300's, and Intel models (X-25M and E models, as well as the 40GB Value models), to work. But it's also PC centric, so OWC would be a stretch IMO.

So you may end up being the guinea pig. :eek: :p

- Currently investigating whether or not photoshop has a 500MB/s bottle neck with scratch. Hadn't heard that before.
I'm not sure of the accuracy of that, and IIRC, Honumaui has stated it's false (may be worth going back into the thread to see). If it's in another thread, you may have to search if he doesn't get a chance to post on it in this one.

• Mac Pro 12 Core, 2.93 Ghz
$6,200

• Apple Care Protection Plan
$200.00

• OWC Processor Upgrade to 3.33 Ghz
$2059

• 64GB SDRAM
$2,348

• ATI Radeon 5870 Graphics Card
$200

• Areca 1880ix Series Raid Card
• (will determine exact number of ports/model needed)
$700.00 (estimate)

Looks good. :)

We can get into the card later (simplest is the ARC-1880I (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-1880i~7AREC03P.htm), but you can add a 4GB DIMM (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-3404gb~7AREC03W.htm) to the ARC-1880ix12 (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-1880ix-12~4AREC03T.htm) for additional speed due to the larger cache).

You'd also want to have a UPS if you're not already using a good one (for this much system, get an Online/Double Conversion unit; don't skimp here), and ideally, the BBU (Battery Backup Unit; there's 2x different units, so the exact card model will matter as to which one you need) per system.

Lower Optical Bay : Boot, Apps & Scratch

• Boot and apps on one SSD, then stripe the remaining three for scratch.

• 1x 50GB OWC Mercury Extreme Pro RE SSD (OS + Apps)
$190.00
You could skip the RE version for an OS/applications drive, as the writes to it will be very low in comparison to the others (scratch space).

• 3x 200GB OWC OWC Mercury Extreme Pro RE SSD
$1,950

• Backplane RAID Cage (holds the 4 SSDs In the lower optical bay)
$50.00

• Nippon Labs SATA to Molex Power Adapter
$6.00
All fine. :)

Internal Drives : Bays 1-4 Working Jobs

• 4x Disk (RAID5) Array, 750GB Western Digital RE3
$440

• MaxConnect SAS/SATA BackPlane Attachment, to connect the 4 internal HDs to the Areca Card.
$120
I'd go with the 1TB versions (seen them for $130 on newegg) if possible, as they are a tad faster, and as you fill capacity, the throughputs do slow down (hitting inner tracks).

BTW, don't buy all your drives from the same place, as you want to avoid the same batch (or worse, sequential serial numbers), just in case you get hold of a bad batch. Data loss tends to occur when that happens, so please take that into account (split your drive orders to a few vendors; say 4x disks from 4x vendors for example, then one from each order per system).

I realize this isn't always possible, but do try if you can. You'll appreciate the lack of headaches from a bad batch. Trust me. :eek: ;)

2 Bay External PM Enclosure : 4TB Back Up

• OWC Mercury Elite-AlPro, Dual Drive External, Quad Interface
$380.00
Looks good. :)

JulianBoolean

Oct 19, 2010, 08:54 PM

Regarding the issue of Photoshop scratch and the optimal, and or, maximum number of striped SSDs suitable for that purpose, I did some digging around LLoyd's site, and found some benches.

USING SOLID STATE DRIVES FOR SCRATCH, Jan 8, 2010
"For truly enormous jobs, the quad-SSD setup cuts another big chunk of the time down. In this test, there is no benefit to using two eSATA cards over just one card for a quad-SSD setup, but there is benefit to using an eSATA card, since the Mac Pro Nehalem’s internal SATA ports throttle performance with four of these SSDs. The optimal number of SSDs appear to be three (3). While small gains are possible with four drives, this is likely to be of little significance for most jobs. Two (2) drives looks to be a price/performance sweet-spot."

--Mac performance Guide
http://macperformanceguide.com/OptimizingPhotoshop-SSD.html

- Julian

JulianBoolean

Oct 19, 2010, 09:21 PM

nanofrog

Oct 19, 2010, 09:50 PM

I've been thinking about a plan B, if it turns out that OWC raid edition SSDs are not suited for an Areca 1800 series card, how about this:

Connected to the ICH and physically located in the optical bay :
3x 200 GB OWC RE version SSD for photoshop scratch. that should just about saturate, but not throttle the internal available bandwidth.
The ICH isn't the best way to go about this, as it won't scale as you'd like (test results in another thread). So it's best to use another controller (card) if possible.

In your case, an ARC-1880 series card would be best for this, as you can benefit from the cache, and keep the overhead on the system as low as possible for the application suite.

Connected to the raid card and sitting in the optical bay :
1x 40GB OWC SSD, for Boot and Apps
Can I boot off the card?
Yes, you can boot off of the card, but the ICH is fine for the OS/applications disk.

Using the ICH keeps the throughput of that particular drive off of the card's bandwidth (better to split it up where possible IMO, as it reduces the risk of throttling when all ports are used simultaneously).

Connected to the raid card, and sitting in the 4 internal bays
4x WD RE3, raid5, working files. Same as original plan A

External Backup
Same 4Tb box.
This is fine. :)

Honumaui

Oct 20, 2010, 12:57 AM

nanofrog

Oct 20, 2010, 02:59 AM

some tests I did with 3 SSD
might be the ones Nano was mentioning but thought I would post my findings here ;)
There's a couple others as well IIRC (Virtual Rain and Transporteur).

JulianBoolean

Oct 20, 2010, 10:10 PM

There's a couple others as well IIRC (Virtual Rain and Transporteur).

Sorry to be daft - What's IIRC mean? and what others?
-JB

JulianBoolean

Oct 20, 2010, 10:20 PM

some tests I did with 3 SSD
might be the ones Nano was mentioning but thought I would post my findings here ;)

same discs the faster was hooked up to my Areca the slower was when on the HCI trays 2,3,4

so you can see they are quite a bit slower just good to know its best to get them on its own :)

I was thinking of that firmtek 4 port card rather than two cards :)

Now that is some information that alters the viability of plan B. Thanks man. :)

What firmtek card?

Is there something else (instead of the Areca 1800) that I could hook three SSDs into, and get some write times that would kinda look like there's 3 ssds in there and not two?

I'm willing to be the resident guinea pig for testing out the 1800 card, and I think that time might be at hand, just want to feel like I've looked at all the other options.

-JB

philipma1957

Oct 20, 2010, 10:25 PM

IIRC = If I Remember Correctly

nanofrog

Oct 21, 2010, 12:32 AM

Is there something else (instead of the Areca 1800) that I could hook three SSDs into, and get some write times that would kinda look like there's 3 ssds in there and not two?
Areca and ATTO Technologies (R6xx series (http://attotech.com/products/category.php?id=1&catid=10)). Of the two companies, Areca is a better price/performance ratio (extremely similar performance, cheaper, and even better, Areca will include Fan-out cables per internal connector on the card). ATTO makes a non-RAID version (H6xx series (http://attotech.com/products/category.php?id=1&catid=3)), which is cheaper, but you'd have to use Disk Utility to create the RAID set (physically, they look nearly identical, but they're not; the H series doesn't have the RAID processor or recovery options that go with it). But it is cheaper (need to verify if it will boot EFI (I'd think so, but it's not explicitly stated), but it does have drivers for OS X.

Other options are just SATA cards, and those that are 6.0Gb/s compliant, are 2 port eSATA versions (none yet with internal SATA ports that have OS X drivers). The 4 port SATA versions are all still 3.0Gb/s.

Sadly, there's just not a lot of options right now (may never be, as the MP market is rather small). :(

JulianBoolean

Oct 21, 2010, 04:23 PM

Nanofrog -

I just got the green light for funding on the following upgrade proposal. :) Will get 1 workstation up and running first, then the following three workstations after. Talked to the IT guys and mentioned my concerns about the areca card playing nice with the SSDs. They seemed open to working out the issue.

Request: Just need help finalizing the exact model of areca 1800. Interested to hear about the battery thingy and the cache thingy options available. Currently planning a need for 7 ports on the card (4 HDs and 3 SSD) The Boot and apps would go on the ich. Also intrested in adding more ports for a bit of future proofing.

Thanks! :)

• Edits / Revisions In Blue

• Mac Pro 12 Core, 3.33 Ghz

• Apple Care Protection Plan
• Probably N/A, given the processor upgrade

• OWC Processor Upgrade to 3.33 Ghz
• 1 year limited warranty on processor(s) only
• Link (http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/turnkey/MacPro/2009_2010_Xeon_Processor/Apple_Mac_Pro_2010_2)

• 64GB SDRAM
• Link (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/1333D3X8M64K/)

• ATI Radeon 5870 Graphics Card

------------

RAID Card

• Areca Raid Card, Model ARC-1800 ix-16
• Link (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-1880ix-16~7AREC03U.htm)

• 4GB Cache Upgrade
• Link (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-3404gb~7AREC03W.htm)

• Battery BackUp
• Link (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-6120ba-t113~7AREC03X.htm)

------------

Lower Optical Bay : Boot, Apps & Scratch

• 1x 240GB OWC Mercury Extreme Pro SSD (OS + Apps)
• Connected To The ICH
• Link (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/SSDMX240/)

• 3x 200GB OWC OWC Mercury Extreme Pro RE SSD (Scratch)
• Connected To The RAID Card (RAID 0)
• Link (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/SSDMXRE200/)

• Backplane RAID Cage
• Holds the 4 SSDs In the lower optical bay
• Link (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816710003&cm_re=2.5%22_backplane-_-16-710-003-_-Product&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-RSSDailyDeals-_-na-_-na&AID=10521304&PID=3160356&SID=)

• Nippon Labs SATA to Molex Power Adapter
• Link (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812816038&cm_re=sata_to_molex-_-12-816-038-_-Product&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-RSSDailyDeals-_-na-_-na&AID=10521304&PID=3160356&SID=)

------------

Internal Drives : Bays 1-4 Working Jobs

• 4x 1000GB Western Digital RE3 (RAID5)

• MaxConnect SAS/SATA BackPlane Attachment
• Connects the 4 internal HDs to the Areca RAID Card.
• Link (http://www.maxupgrades.com/istore/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=189)

------------

4x 1TB External Back Up

• OWC Mercury Elite-AlPro, Qx2 (RAID 5)
• Link (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/MEQX2T4.0S/)

• MaxPower 6G PCIe 2.0 RAID Controller Card
• Link (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer%20Technology/MXPCIE6GRS/)

• Remember to run this external BU thru the UPS

-----------

Extras

• APC Smart-UPS
• Link (http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=SMT1000)

• Two Spare Hard Drives, 2x 1TB Western Digital RE3

• One 22" NEC Rotating Monitor,
• For Application Palettes
• Link (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824002458)

.

Transporteur

Oct 21, 2010, 04:37 PM

Just a quick question from my side.
Are you sure that you wanna settle with a 40GB drive for the OS AND apps?

Seems to be a little on the small side to me. I've got no idea which applications you'll run, but keep in mind that SSD's want to have spare space for levelling.
In addition to that, unless you've found out how to move the systems swap files, those are also going to be written to the OS drive.

During my work, which doesn't involve any media files whatsoever, the swap files can easily get to 20GB during a week. But then I've got only 12GB of RAM, which although more than sufficient for my work, doesn't prevent the system from creating massive swap files.

All I'm saying is that you have to be very certain on how to configure and use your system with a 40GB OS and app drive.

JulianBoolean

Oct 21, 2010, 05:06 PM

nanofrog

Oct 21, 2010, 05:48 PM

I just got the green light for funding on the following upgrade proposal. :) Will get 1 workstation up and running first, then the following three workstations after. Talked to the IT guys and mentioned my concerns about the areca card playing nice with the SSDs. They seemed open to working out the issue.
Good. Now to wait for all the parts, and let the testing begin... :D

Request: Just need help finalizing the exact model of areca 1800. Interested to hear about the battery thingy and the cache thingy options available. Currently planning a need for 7 ports on the card (4 HDs and 3 SSD) The Boot and apps would go on the ich. Also intrested in adding more ports for a bit of future proofing.
Ah, so now you're interested in adding ports. :rolleyes: What happened to not needing more than 8? :eek: :D :p

Now you see the potential and the beginnings of a potential addition to RAID?
Wait 'til you test the card and drives.... then you're screwed.... er.... hooked. Muhahaha :D

• Areca 1880i Series Raid Card
Will determine exact model needed when configuration is finalized
Well, in this instance, I'd go with the ARC-1880ix12 (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-1880ix-12~AAREC03T.htm) as a bare minimum. By going with this card (or the 16 (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-1880ix-16~7AREC03U.htm) or 24 (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-1880ix-24~7AREC03V.htm) port versions), the cache is contained on a DIMM rather than soldered to the board. Which allows you to upgrade the cache capacity to 4GB (here (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-3404gb~7AREC03W.htm)). I wouldn't go past the 16 port version for what you've listed so far (presuming say adding 4x SSD's to the stripe set, and 4x HDD"s to the mechanical RAID 5 set for capacity/performance expansion).

I'd recommend bookmarking the links, as they're the correct P/N's to do what you need (especially the battery and DIMM). BTW, I've used Provantage many times, and haven't had any problems with them (great prices and decent packaging, especially when compared to newegg for HDD's).

The ARC-1880ixY models are the ones that use the newer BBU (higher mA rating than previous cards). You can find it here (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-6120ba-t113~7AREC03X.htm) (P/N ends in T113; ARC-6120 (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-6120~7AREC02W.htm) version would be used with the other models in the series, such as the ARC-1880I). Please note, that they're new enough, that it's special order for most of these Areca products.

• 1x 40GB OWC Mercury Extreme Pro SSD (OS + Apps)
I'm with Transporteur here; get a bigger drive.

• OWC Mercury Elite-AlPro, Qx2
Don't forget the eSATA card to get this working (go with one of the newertech cards from OWC; you don't have to have the PM capable version, but it could open up other options later, and the cost difference is only $30).

Newertech (non RAID version) $50 (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer%20Technology/MXPCIE6GS2/)
Newertech RAID version (has PM support) $80 (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer%20Technology/MXPCIE6GRS/)

JulianBoolean

Oct 21, 2010, 11:37 PM

Good. Now to wait for all the parts, and let the testing begin... :D

(Barry White Voice Here) Oooooh baby, …. testing... that'sa ma faaavorite word. I'm downright giddy at the prospect of building four of these killer retouching machines.

Ah, so now you're interested in adding ports. :rolleyes: What happened to not needing more than 8? :eek: :D :p
Now you see the potential and the beginnings of a potential addition to RAID?
Wait 'til you test the card and drives.... then you're screwed.... er.... hooked. Muhahaha :D

Yeah man, I got the fever. Speed fever they calls it. And regarding the 8 ports, I'm deserving of any humorous ridicule thrown my way, fine sir. That was the first question you asked me on day one. But... that's how we roll in ad agency land! :) We change direction on ya two feet from the goal line. The good news is that nothing is ordered at this point. I can still work out the finer points and am currently collaborating, conversing with the IT guys. Ordering won't happen until next week friday. I was also very clear that the exact model of card is yet to be determined and mentioned the battery backup and cache upgrade options. It's all good. :)

Well, in this instance, I'd go with the ARC-1880ix12 (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-1880ix-12~AAREC03T.htm) as a bare minimum. By going with this card (or the 16 (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-1880ix-16~7AREC03U.htm) or 24 (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-1880ix-24~7AREC03V.htm) port versions), the cache is contained on a DIMM rather than soldered to the board. Which allows you to upgrade the cache capacity to 4GB (here (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-3404gb~7AREC03W.htm)). I wouldn't go past the 16 port version for what you've listed so far (presuming say adding 4x SSD's to the stripe set, and 4x HDD"s to the mechanical RAID 5 set for capacity/performance expansion).

The 16 Port is 50 bucks more than the 12, so I'll go with the 16, and the 4GB upgrade. We'll be living with this configuration for at least three years, and while I don't currently see any need for expansion, I also thought my Beige G3 with 32MB of ram was all the computer I'd ever need. Lesson learned.

I'd recommend bookmarking the links, as they're the correct P/N's to do what you need (especially the battery and DIMM). BTW, I've used Provantage many times, and haven't had any problems with them (great prices and decent packaging, especially when compared to newegg for HDD's).

Cool beans, all links have been bookmarked. Big thanks on this man.

The ARC-1880ixY models are the ones that use the newer BBU (higher mA rating than previous cards). You can find it here (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-6120ba-t113~7AREC03X.htm) (P/N ends in T113; ARC-6120 (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-6120~7AREC02W.htm) version would be used with the other models in the series, such as the ARC-1880I). Please note, that they're new enough, that it's special order for most of these Areca products.

Slight confused here, but now that the exact model has been selected, is it apparent which option would be better?

I'm with Transporteur here; get a bigger drive.

Good catch Transporteur, much appreciated, and will do. I'm thinking either the 200GB OWC RE's for $649.00, or the 240GB for $569.00. So that's basically a more cells & capacity vs. 27% over provisioning but less capacity, and fewer cells. Both are in the price range. Thoughts?

Don't forget the eSATA card to get this working (go with one of the newertech cards from OWC; you don't have to have the PM capable version, but it could open up other options later, and the cost difference is only $30).

Newertech (non RAID version) $50 (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer%20Technology/MXPCIE6GS2/)
Newertech RAID version (has PM support) $80 (http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Newer%20Technology/MXPCIE6GRS/)

Good catch. I'm liking the RAID version as I'll be running 4 disks in the external back up box in a RAID5. Reading from the promotional blurbs.. those thinga ma jiggles make the transfer speeds double yes? instead of ~300MB/s I'd get ~600MB/s, correct? But… (obvious black hole in my knowledge base, and being intellectually curious) this goes in one of two PCI slots, and there is one pci slot that is a 4 lane, and one that is an 8 lane?

Thanks to all for all the continued support!

-Julian

philipma1957

Oct 22, 2010, 12:24 AM

Julian see this thread http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1035193

If you are getting all that gear from OWC you could ask them >

nanofrog

Oct 22, 2010, 01:43 AM

We change direction on ya two feet from the goal line.
That's almost always the case. So don't go feelin' special. :D :p

I can still work out the finer points and am currently collaborating, conversing with the IT guys.
Glad to hear it's collaboration, not "staring daggers" at each other. ;)

The 16 Port is 50 bucks more than the 12, so I'll go with the 16, and the 4GB upgrade. We'll be living with this configuration for at least three years, and while I don't currently see any need for expansion, I also thought my Beige G3 with 32MB of ram was all the computer I'd ever need. Lesson learned.
These cards can also be moved from one system to another, so the additional ports could allow them to be functional for than the system they're planned in.

They could also be re-tasked to say an archival storage system in the future (even a SAN, if the archival capacity needs to be available to more than 4 systems, on the presumption of expansion).

Slight confused here, but now that the exact model has been selected, is it apparent which option would be better?
What I meant was, the ARC-1880ix12, ARC-1880ix16 (one you seem to want), and the ARC-1880ix24 must use the T113 (http://www.provantage.com/areca-technology-arc-6120ba-t113~7AREC03X.htm) version for the BBU (one with the higher current rating; mA = milli Amps).

Good catch Transporteur, much appreciated, and will do. I'm thinking either the 200GB OWC RE's for $649.00, or the 240GB for $569.00. So that's basically a more cells & capacity vs. 27% over provisioning but less capacity, and fewer cells. Both are in the price range. Thoughts?
Go with the Pro version = 240GB model. Both actually work out to 256GB of total storage capacity, which includes the over-provisioning (200 * 1.28 for the RE, 240 * 1.07 for the Pro).

Given they're the same total capacity and the Pro is cheaper, the cost/GB is lower (wear leveling for the same capacity fill = same for both drives).

Good catch. I'm liking the RAID version as I'll be running 4 disks in the external back up box in a RAID5. Reading from the promotional blurbs.. those thinga ma jiggles make the transfer speeds double yes? instead of ~300MB/s I'd get ~600MB/s, correct? But… (obvious black hole in my knowledge base, and being intellectually curious) this goes in one of two PCI slots, and there is one pci slot that is a 4 lane, and one that is an 8 lane?
Unfortunately, you won't get 600MB/s for a few reasons (bottlenecks due to the specifications).

The card is a single PCIe Gen 2.0 = 500MB/s max over the PCIe slot. Unfortunately, this isn't the slowest bottleneck, so it will be worse.
The Qx2 is spec'd out at SATA 3.0Gb/s, and the best real world throughput over 3.0Gb/s is ~270 - 275MB/s.
There will be a bit of overhead with the controller (built to be cheap, not performance oriented), so it will probably be less. I'd figure 200 - 250MB/s realistically (actual disks used will have a notable effect on this).

But it's sufficient for a backup solution, and it's inexpensive. BTW, make sure it's attached to the UPS as well.

JulianBoolean

Oct 22, 2010, 11:27 PM

Thanks for above info and follow up, much appreciated.

Q: I'm guessing the cache upgrade to 4GB on the card is for faster reads/writes? This is like ram?

Q: I'm guessing the Battery Back up thingy option on the card is for power failure?

-Julian

JulianBoolean

Oct 22, 2010, 11:31 PM

If you are getting all that gear from OWC you could ask them >

Good idea, thanks. :)

nanofrog

Oct 22, 2010, 11:54 PM

Q: I'm guessing the cache upgrade to 4GB on the card is for faster reads/writes? This is like ram?
Yes.

The larger cache can allow the system to move data to be written to the card, and allow the system to keep running. This can help with large files up to the capacity limit of the DIMM (4GB is currently the largest capacity available right now, but will be able to handle 8GB sticks when available).

Q: I'm guessing the Battery Back up thingy option on the card is for power failure?
Yes.

It keeps the data stored on the cache active in the even there's a power outage (UPS runs out of power). It's not fool-proof, as you can find yourself in a situation that the processed data is larger than the cache, and the application cannot automatically resume (pick up where it left off). In such cases, there will be a need to re-perform work that was running when the power was lost.

BTW, you can use the Multi Quote icon (far right; see below for the image), and reply to multiple posts in one (there's a rule on this, so it will keep the mods happy). ;)

JulianBoolean

Nov 1, 2010, 12:41 PM

Nanofrog - Your reply below was in response to this question: "Is there something else (instead of the Areca 1800) that I could hook three SSDs into, and get some write times that would kinda look like there's 3 ssds in there and not two?"

Areca and ATTO Technologies (R6xx series (http://attotech.com/products/category.php?id=1&catid=10)). Of the two companies, Areca is a better price/performance ratio (extremely similar performance, cheaper, and even better, Areca will include Fan-out cables per internal connector on the card). ATTO makes a non-RAID version (H6xx series (http://attotech.com/products/category.php?id=1&catid=3)), which is cheaper, but you'd have to use Disk Utility to create the RAID set (physically, they look nearly identical, but they're not; the H series doesn't have the RAID processor or recovery options that go with it). But it is cheaper (need to verify if it will boot EFI (I'd think so, but it's not explicitly stated), but it does have drivers for OS X.

Other options are just SATA cards, and those that are 6.0Gb/s compliant, are 2 port eSATA versions (none yet with internal SATA ports that have OS X drivers). The 4 port SATA versions are all still 3.0Gb/s.

Sadly, there's just not a lot of options right now (may never be, as the MP market is rather small). :(

So... If it turns out that the 1800ix16 card does jive with 3x RAID0 SSDs, some plan B options would be those you've listed above.

Question: But would those options be in addition to, or instead of, the 1800ix16? I'm not hip to how these thingys plug into the 2 avail PCIe slots.

Thanks!

nanofrog

Nov 1, 2010, 05:30 PM

Nanofrog - Your reply below was in response to this question: "Is there something else (instead of the Areca 1800) that I could hook three SSDs into, and get some write times that would kinda look like there's 3 ssds in there and not two?"

So... If it turns out that the 1800ix16 card does jive with 3x RAID0 SSDs, some plan B options would be those you've listed above.

Question: But would those options be in addition to, or instead of, the 1800ix16? I'm not hip to how these thingys plug into the 2 avail PCIe slots.

Thanks!
They're separate cards (not used in tandem, but as alternatives to what we've discussed before).

They come in 2x basic "flavors"; RAID, and non-RAID HBA (HBA = Host Bus Adapter). The first version (RAID), have separate processors, cache, and the firmware to handle RAID levels (that cannot be done on the MP or XServe without such a card, as Disk Utility is limited to 0/1/10). The second (non-RAID), is essentially a SAS/SATA card (really good one, but there's no RAID functions; it will however work with Disk Utility to do 0/1/10 at a light/small expense of system usage to handle the RAID functions/calculations,...).

So a non-RAID HBA has it's uses (i.e. less expensive way to get SSD's on 6.0Gb/s ports than one of the 6.0Gb/s RAID cards), but the for an 8 port model, you can get the RAID version for ~$150USD more (gives you more options in terms of RAID levels and features <recovery and transferability>, as well as takes the load off of the system).

For Atto's products, there's the R series = RAID (i.e. R608), and the H series = non-RAID version (i.e. H608). Be careful, as the letter is the distinction in the model number, though the price is also a major clue (H models are cheaper).

In the case of Areca, they've 6.0Gb/s RAID cards out (1880 series), but no 6.0Gb/s non-RAID units yet (they do have 3.0Gb/s non-RAID versions; ATTO went the reverse, so the H models came out first).

Hope this helps. :)

JulianBoolean

Nov 7, 2010, 12:14 PM

They're separate cards (not used in tandem, but as alternatives to what we've discussed before).

They come in 2x basic "flavors"; RAID, and non-RAID HBA (HBA = Host Bus Adapter). The first version (RAID), have separate processors, cache, and the firmware to handle RAID levels (that cannot be done on the MP or XServe without such a card, as Disk Utility is limited to 0/1/10). The second (non-RAID), is essentially a SAS/SATA card (really good one, but there's no RAID functions; it will however work with Disk Utility to do 0/1/10 at a light/small expense of system usage to handle the RAID functions/calculations,...).

So a non-RAID HBA has it's uses (i.e. less expensive way to get SSD's on 6.0Gb/s ports than one of the 6.0Gb/s RAID cards), but the for an 8 port model, you can get the RAID version for ~$150USD more (gives you more options in terms of RAID levels and features <recovery and transferability>, as well as takes the load off of the system).

For Atto's products, there's the R series = RAID (i.e. R608), and the H series = non-RAID version (i.e. H608). Be careful, as the letter is the distinction in the model number, though the price is also a major clue (H models are cheaper).

In the case of Areca, they've 6.0Gb/s RAID cards out (1880 series), but no 6.0Gb/s non-RAID units yet (they do have 3.0Gb/s non-RAID versions; ATTO went the reverse, so the H models came out first).

Hope this helps. :)

Awesome, this makes total sense! I'm often missing the meaning behind acronyms, having that stuff spelled out really helps me. Thanks for your continued assistance. :)

- Julian