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Big Dave
Oct 20, 2010, 05:52 PM
I don't usually whine but here goes:
I think that Steve is steadily turning Macs from tools to toys. The app store on the Mac is one step in my opinion to take away the ability to develop your own tools. This might be a stretch, but think about how locked down the iPhone and iPad are. It won't be long until the Mac is on lockdown too. The terminal is on the endangered list in my opinion.



NicoleRichie
Oct 20, 2010, 05:59 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8B117 Safari/6531.22.7)

When it comes to that point jump ship. Developers don't have to distribute in the app store. Tools-toys... Not sure I agree, but that is my opinion. Sure there are limitations on all of the Apple products due to locked abilities. That has not stopped developers to continue developing backwoods and sought after options for the end user. If people want it developers will create options to make it happen.

QuarterSwede
Oct 20, 2010, 06:10 PM
I don't usually whine but here goes:
I think that Steve is steadily turning Macs from tools to toys. The app store on the Mac is one step in my opinion to take away the ability to develop your own tools. This might be a stretch, but think about how locked down the iPhone and iPad are. It won't be long until the Mac is on lockdown too. The terminal is on the endangered list in my opinion.
Maybe I'm being short sighted but I don't agree. The iDevices are locked down mostly due to cell network restrictions. So far Macs don't have built in cell antennas so there is no reason to lock them down. That may happen in the future but Macs and OS X will have to really change before Apple will be able to lock them down like they did with the iDevices.


Sure there are limitations on all of the Apple products due to locked abilities. That has not stopped developers to continue developing backwoods and sought after options for the end user. If people want it developers will create options to make it happen.
Good point. As an example think of SIMBL plugins (http://www.culater.net/software/SIMBL/SIMBL.php). Apple doesn't like or recommend them but they're still out there.

rprebel
Oct 20, 2010, 06:12 PM
This is how they see it.

If the user wants to have access to tools like the terminal and can't easily get to it, they have failed.
If the user doesn't want said access and can't get away from it, they have failed.

It's a balance. So long as the tools are there for the people who want them, they're still doing things right, by their definition and mine.

NT1440
Oct 20, 2010, 07:15 PM
I don't usually whine but here goes:
I think that Steve is steadily turning Macs from tools to toys. The app store on the Mac is one step in my opinion to take away the ability to develop your own tools. This might be a stretch, but think about how locked down the iPhone and iPad are. It won't be long until the Mac is on lockdown too. The terminal is on the endangered list in my opinion.

Right, because everyone knows you won't be able to install things from anywhere other than the mac store. :rolleyes:

racer1441
Oct 20, 2010, 07:16 PM
As long as the option is still there, the Mac App store is the best thing Apple has done in a long time.

It is another step to getting macs into the hands of people with no real computer experience. May not make developers and programmers happy, but Aunt Sally and Grandpa Jones just got a big leap into the mac world with very little effort.

This will drive mac sales, no doubt about it.

-aggie-
Oct 20, 2010, 07:17 PM
Right, because everyone knows you won't be able to install things from anywhere other than the mac store. :rolleyes:

Yeah, just like we canít install anything but App Store apps on the iPhone.:)

NT1440
Oct 20, 2010, 08:05 PM
Yeah, just like we canít install anything but App Store apps on the iPhone.:)

Mac != iphone.

An iPhone simply isn't an actual computer (in the sense we think of them anyway)

Do you guys really believe that apple would EVER try to implement such a stupid rule? No amount of PR spending would keep the press from ripping them to shreds.

Common sense.

VPrime
Oct 20, 2010, 08:27 PM
People who see this as a terrible future are forgetting onething....
3rd party software. Apple only provides so much them selves (iLife, iwork... various included apps).

3rd party software for both iPhone and mac is created on..... You guessed it...... A mac.

If apple was to "close" the OS in the way many people are fearing, that would be the end of the app store. Developers will not develop...... correct that, Developers CAN NOT make applications on a platform that does not provide certain low level access.

So think about it, how can apple create this "closed" system and still have a successful 3rd party appstore... They cant.

That is why there will always be a true UNIX OS for us to use. The fun, user friendly (maybe even toy like) iOS features will only be a layer ONTOP of OSX.. Additional feature, not replacement features.

flopticalcube
Oct 20, 2010, 08:30 PM
Maybe we should wait and see how Apple handles this before we judge? It could simply be one more channel to app delivery rather than the channel.

rprebel
Oct 20, 2010, 08:32 PM
Maybe we should wait and see how Apple handles this before we judge? It could simply be one more channel to app delivery rather than the channel.

No no no no no. That would be reasonable.:rolleyes:

maflynn
Oct 20, 2010, 08:42 PM
I see the progression,
10.7 app store optional
10.8 app store mandatory

Generally speaking I'm very unhappy with the focus and direction of apple is going these days.

goobot
Oct 20, 2010, 08:42 PM
i dont see how apple giving you another option is bad

maflynn
Oct 20, 2010, 08:43 PM
i dont see how apple giving you another option is bad

Today its another option, tomorrow its the only option. Apple has never been about choice and now the closed walled garden of iOS has arrived to OSX

miles01110
Oct 20, 2010, 08:44 PM
The iDevices are locked down mostly due to cell network restrictions.

Comically incorrect.

VPrime
Oct 20, 2010, 08:49 PM
Today its another option, tomorrow its the only option. Apple has never been about choice and now the closed walled garden of iOS has arrived to OSX

That would put an end to any 3rd party support from developers.. With out 3rd party, there is no applications. With out applications there are no customers.

It just isn't logical to close off a system that has to be open for their whole app infrastructure to thrive.

wirelessmacuser
Oct 20, 2010, 08:52 PM
I'm not about to go negative on something that is still an unknown for the most part.

Yes, I watched the presentation live on my MBP today, so I saw it all, yet you never know just how things are going to shake out.

Change is never well excepted by those with closed minds.

I choose to be positive, find the good side of things and if it goes the other direction there are lots of options out there.

miles01110
Oct 20, 2010, 08:52 PM
That would put an end to any 3rd party support from developers..

What are you talking about?

VPrime
Oct 20, 2010, 09:00 PM
What are you talking about?

I will give an example.

I am making a game for iPhone, I use multiple applications. Some of these applications that I use to create the assets for this game would not fall under apples approved apps for a mac appstore.

If I can not use these applications on a mac I will be forced to run a different operating system. I can not create applications for iPhone in windows or linux. So I can not develop for an iPhone.


There are a lot of applications developers rely on. Many of these applications will not be allowed in the mac app store. Denying developers the applications they require to populate the appstore... means less apps across the whole apple line (ipods, iPhone,iPad, macs).

Yr Blues
Oct 20, 2010, 11:09 PM
They should have a 2 tiered system where, like the development tools, power-users can access the fully functioned system if they want and have another OS for general consumption.

I think "finder" has always been clumsy to use. I use Spotlight about 80% of the time. I don't even have any icons on my dock.

deetsnai
Oct 20, 2010, 11:19 PM
I will give an example.

I am making a game for iPhone, I use multiple applications. Some of these applications that I use to create the assets for this game would not fall under apples approved apps for a mac appstore.

If I can not use these applications on a mac I will be forced to run a different operating system. I can not create applications for iPhone in windows or linux. So I can not develop for an iPhone.


There are a lot of applications developers rely on. Many of these applications will not be allowed in the mac app store. Denying developers the applications they require to populate the appstore... means less apps across the whole apple line (ipods, iPhone,iPad, macs).

I completely agree VPrime. I hope those who are worried realize where all this Apple magic and 3rd party software comes from. As long as software and hardware exists, there will be professional tools to build them. These tools require in-depth knowledge and system access for the user.

felt.
Oct 20, 2010, 11:22 PM
I can't wait for installous OSX :p

saxon48
Oct 21, 2010, 12:17 AM
What's even scarier, after digesting all the information from yesterday's hubbub, is what OS 11 may someday look like, if Apple keeps this iOS shenanigan up on the Mac...

applemagic123
Oct 21, 2010, 12:44 AM
We will always be able to jailbreak the mac os because hackers will get root access and will unlock it.

They jailbroke the iPad in less than 24 hours.

SnowLeopard2008
Oct 21, 2010, 12:59 AM
I doubt it. Instead of thinking of the negatives, how about the positives? Many people I know (my age, older and senior citizens) would benefit from the Mac App Store. It won't be the only way to install apps, it's a compliment to that. I know Adobe, Microsoft, AutoDesk, VMWare and even Apple's own Pro apps won't be in the Mac App Store. The Mac App Store is for consumers. Not tech geeks like you and me. It's easier to discover new apps and get updates. It's the last little thing that kind of bugs me. Prosumers will still be able to install and use their stuff unhindered. Apple just made things easier for regular consumers, which is a GOOD thing. Apple used to be more "exclusive" but is opening up a bit towards the consumer market.

robanga
Oct 21, 2010, 01:02 AM
In my opinion it looks like an exciting change to the positive. So many ways to interact with the OS, consistency that extends to the the iOS devices as well.

Jollins
Oct 21, 2010, 01:30 AM
I see the progression,
10.7 app store optional
10.8 app store mandatory

Generally speaking I'm very unhappy with the focus and direction of apple is going these days.
This is fear mongering.

The iPhone & iPad are low-powered devices with small screens, meant for non-advanced computing tasks. The Mac is not, so it won't have the same level of restriction.

mrkramer
Oct 21, 2010, 01:32 AM
They should have a 2 tiered system where, like the development tools, power-users can access the fully functioned system if they want and have another OS for general consumption.

I think "finder" has always been clumsy to use. I use Spotlight about 80% of the time. I don't even have any icons on my dock.

umm... I think that's pretty close to what they are having, if the app that you want doesn't get approved for the app store then you can go ahead and buy it from the developer. Apple is not doing anything to restrict what you can install on your mac they are just adding another option.

dscuber9000
Oct 21, 2010, 07:15 AM
This reminds me of the tea party movement. People are talking about creating a public option in health care, and they all freak out that they will be forced to use it.

The Mac App Store is an option and it'd be suicide for Apple to make it mandatory. It has strict restrictions because if it is on the store, then it has Apple's stamp of approval. It's as simple as that.

bruinsrme
Oct 21, 2010, 07:28 AM
Perhaps 10.9 will actually be ios6

One way to get a cut on anything developed to run on an apple is to require it to be purchased through an Apple app store.
Apple will make money for simply hosting developers software.
The good of that will be everything is centralized.
If you look at the new data center, did apple ever say what the mission of that really was? If so I missed it.
You develop a program/app and sell it $20. $6 goes to apple.
Also, can anyone tell me if the credit card transaction fees are absorbed into that $6 or is the developer hit with that charge too.

A mac app store may be good for developers and a bragging point for apple, look at us we have 1 million apps for the mac platform.

I would love to see that download stats for all the apps.
>100k downloads
>10k downloads
<1000 downloads and so on.

maflynn
Oct 21, 2010, 08:17 AM
We will always be able to jailbreak the mac os because hackers will get root access and will unlock it.

They jailbroke the iPad in less than 24 hours.

but why should I have to jailbreak my computer to use it the way I want/need to, especially since I could very easily run windows or linux and not need this hassle?


This is fear mongering.

The iPhone & iPad are low-powered devices with small screens, meant for non-advanced computing tasks. The Mac is not, so it won't have the same level of restriction.

I have a right to post my concerns, and that is a valid concern. Its not like I'm the only one to post the idea that apple is building a walled garden for the mac.

eawmp1
Oct 21, 2010, 08:55 AM
I have a right to post my concerns, and that is a valid concern. Its not like I'm the only one to post the idea that apple is building a walled garden for the mac.

Apple has a walled garden for the Mac. You're worried about a smaller walled planter box.

maflynn
Oct 21, 2010, 09:16 AM
Apple has a walled garden for the Mac. You're worried about a smaller walled planter box.

Not yet, anyone can develop an app for OSX, and sell it. They do not need apple to approve and host the application sale. The iPhone/iPad/iPod touch, you need apple's approval process and have them host it.

deetsnai
Oct 21, 2010, 09:26 AM
Perhaps 10.9 will actually be ios6

One way to get a cut on anything developed to run on an apple is to require it to be purchased through an Apple app store.
Apple will make money for simply hosting developers software.
The good of that will be everything is centralized.
If you look at the new data center, did apple ever say what the mission of that really was? If so I missed it.
You develop a program/app and sell it $20. $6 goes to apple.
Also, can anyone tell me if the credit card transaction fees are absorbed into that $6 or is the developer hit with that charge too.

A mac app store may be good for developers and a bragging point for apple, look at us we have 1 million apps for the mac platform.

I would love to see that download stats for all the apps.
>100k downloads
>10k downloads
<1000 downloads and so on.

Apple's goal is not to get a cut of all the sales. 30% is a legitamate overhead. Here is what Apple provides:
- Credit Card Transactions
- Web Hosting
- Bandwidth
- Copy Protection

I love when people say "Why would a developer use the App store when they could sell it there self for FREE".

maflynn
Oct 21, 2010, 09:38 AM
Apple's goal is not to get a cut of all the sales. 30% is a legitamate overhead. Here is what Apple provides:
- Credit Card Transactions
- Web Hosting
- Bandwidth
- Copy Protection

I love when people say "Why would a developer use the App store when they could sell it there self for FREE".
So would 30% represent a decrease in developer's revenue for Panic (maker of Transmit) or Pathfinder, or adobe or Microsoft.

While I agree with you that it apple does provide some good services for the developer, make no mistake, they (Apple) make a tidy profit on the sale. They're not doing this out of altruism, but for the simple fact of creating another revenue stream.

ctyhntr
Oct 21, 2010, 09:57 AM
My impressions from yesterday. I think I'll be staying on 10.6 Snow Leopard for a while. I don't see a reason to move to 10.7, Domesticated Shorthair, eh Lion.

cmChimera
Oct 21, 2010, 10:45 AM
People saying the App store signals the death of Mac OS are getting pretty annoying. It's the download section of Apple.com made prettier, made into a stand alone app, and Apple trying to market it better both to consumers and to developers. The App store is nothing new, people need to get over it. Honestly, it's a godsend for developers.

fabian9
Oct 21, 2010, 10:46 AM
I will give an example.

I am making a game for iPhone, I use multiple applications. Some of these applications that I use to create the assets for this game would not fall under apples approved apps for a mac appstore.

If I can not use these applications on a mac I will be forced to run a different operating system. I can not create applications for iPhone in windows or linux. So I can not develop for an iPhone.


There are a lot of applications developers rely on. Many of these applications will not be allowed in the mac app store. Denying developers the applications they require to populate the appstore... means less apps across the whole apple line (ipods, iPhone,iPad, macs).

What you're forgetting is that the can be be Apple Developer tools in the App Store for developers to use. Just because the iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch are basically gadgets for viewing content, it doesn't mean that the Mac App Store is going to be consumption-centric.

roadbloc
Oct 21, 2010, 10:53 AM
I like the way Apple is headed for once. I've always liked the Ubuntu App Store and after watching the presentation, I'm looking forward to Lion.

dccorona
Oct 21, 2010, 11:03 AM
I can't wait for installous OSX :p

This is a good point I hadn't thought of before

Is this Mac app store going to make it easier for people to "steal" apps? With traditional software, you have to have a lengthy activation code. Sure, those can be generated for free, but for many apps it's difficult or impossible to find them. And/or a crack has to be developed that is both difficult to find and install for basic users.

But installous is easy for most people to use. If it is expanded to support mac app store apps, then pirated software will be so much easier to come buy. Many large companies won't have that.

Software like Photoshop and full games from ea etc probably won't be distributed on this store unless apple forces it.

Macs4u
Oct 21, 2010, 12:13 PM
I honestly think 10.7 is the start of the decline of Apple. The iphone and ipad are so locked down compared to android already. The mac will follow suit. The mac is slowly turning into a cashcow and tbh i think just lately that is the only thing on apples mind. With the new windows7 mobiles coming out (dont laugh , ive seen one in the flesh and they are very very good phones) and windows 8 on the horizon i honestly think that apple is going to lose alot of consumers to windows.

I left apple products last year due to this very reason. I was utterly fed up of being restricted. Yes cheap windows computers get virus's and breakdown blah blah but when you factor in the cost of the mac its not comparable.

I now have a very very fasy computer (intel i7, 8gb ram etc etc ) and it knocks spots of all but the obscenely expensive mac pro). I use the free windows security essentials and i am yet to have a virus. It runs sweet.

This isnt a windows is better than apple post, just a "apple is losing it" post.

TMar
Oct 21, 2010, 12:47 PM
Maybe I'm being short sighted but I don't agree. The iDevices are locked down mostly due to cell network restrictions. So far Macs don't have built in cell antennas so there is no reason to lock them down. That may happen in the future but Macs and OS X will have to really change before Apple will be able to lock them down like they did with the iDevices.



So the ipad is open? It was pointed out that Apple was going down a dangerous path when the ipad was announced. Now I don't buy into so much of the conspiracy theories but weather it's Apple's intentions or it's just the natural course of development, we are being conditioned to accept restrictions on the way we use computers. And it does go against Apple original premise as a company.

Now I can see both sides of the arguments where you need to have certain restrictions to assure a certain measure of consistency in the overall experience but how far do you go? For every program people install on their macs today that cause issues, people with limited understanding of computers, equate that to a poor experience with the OS even it's just crapy third part software. Which in turn effects Apple's customer satisfaction and this is something Apple takes very seriously. Imposing strict restriction on every piece of software installed is not the answer and I hope Apple doesn't continue the trend.

VPrime
Oct 21, 2010, 01:12 PM
What you're forgetting is that the can be be Apple Developer tools in the App Store for developers to use. Just because the iPhone/iPad/iPod Touch are basically gadgets for viewing content, it doesn't mean that the Mac App Store is going to be consumption-centric.

I thought about that as well.. But the thing is, the developer tools them self are a dangerous thing in a closed environment. The tools HAVE to give the developer some low level acces. The developers need to be able to see how the ram is being used, what is being put in ram... How various resources are being used around the OS.
Even the Terminal, a very useful tool for developing applications. As soon as you give access to these tools, the OS is open. You can not remove these tools, you can not reduce their access..

So in theory, there won't need to be a jailbreak ever. Just install Xcode and you have all the access a jailbreak would give:D (which is just root access)



Now I can see both sides of the arguments where you need to have certain restrictions to assure a certain measure of consistency in the overall experience but how far do you go? For every program people install on their macs today that cause issues, people with limited understanding of computers, equate that to a poor experience with the OS even it's just crapy third part software. Which in turn effects Apple's customer satisfaction and this is something Apple takes very seriously. Imposing strict restriction on every piece of software installed is not the answer and I hope Apple doesn't continue the trend.
The consistency only has to be for the apps Apple provide through the app store. That is why the guide lines are so strict.
On the desktop OS, the app store will be just as strict and provide that same consistency. Apples role of providing working, bug free software which provides customer satisfaction.
Any thing installed from another source will be an "at your own risk" type of thing. Apple has played their role, they provided you a safe source.

Corndog5595
Oct 21, 2010, 04:09 PM
As long as the option is still there, the Mac App store is the best thing Apple has done in a long time.

It is another step to getting macs into the hands of people with no real computer experience. May not make developers and programmers happy, but Aunt Sally and Grandpa Jones just got a big leap into the mac world with very little effort.

This will drive mac sales, no doubt about it.

Things will be easier to find and purchase for the consumer. I know this will make me buy more Mac Apps that are $5 instead of finding free alternatives. I don't want to enter credit card information into 10 different sites to buy 10 different pieces of software.

TMar
Oct 21, 2010, 04:23 PM
The consistency only has to be for the apps Apple provide through the app store. That is why the guide lines are so strict.
On the desktop OS, the app store will be just as strict and provide that same consistency. Apples role of providing working, bug free software which provides customer satisfaction.
Any thing installed from another source will be an "at your own risk" type of thing. Apple has played their role, they provided you a safe source.

Apple hasn't brought the 'use at your own risk' strategy to the iPhone or the iPad. The problem comes when apple hands you a laptop/desktop and the only thing you can put on it is from the app store. This is the trend they are working towards and it's troubling to see so many people ignoring that fact. It's one thing to have control and having complete control. Apple is slowing implementing full control and that's a bad thing for everyone.

goobot
Oct 21, 2010, 04:24 PM
the ios devices were never open. not to mention apple wont sell any more computers if they locked it down. plus apps need other apps to be made. if it is locked down then there is 0 apps.

Trat
Oct 21, 2010, 04:47 PM
Don't fear people: your Mac will always remain jailbroken...

Corndog5595
Oct 21, 2010, 04:55 PM
Man 1: How'd you lose your car man?
Man 2: Well, I let my 10 year old son on my computer when I wasn't home. He went into the App Store and accidentally bought AutoCAD.

lewis82
Oct 21, 2010, 05:18 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_1 like Mac OS X; fr-fr) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8B117 Safari/6531.22.7)

If it is like on iPods, it will require password entry before each purchase ^

Corndog5595
Oct 21, 2010, 05:20 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPod; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_1 like Mac OS X; fr-fr) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8B117 Safari/6531.22.7)

If it is like on iPods, it will require password entry before each purchase ^

Obviously my post was just a joke, but stuff like that does happen. If you watched the keynote you would have seen that there was one-click purchasing. No password was required.

lewis82
Oct 21, 2010, 05:34 PM
Obviously my post was just a joke, but stuff like that does happen. If you watched the keynote you would have seen that there was one-click purchasing. No password was required.

It's so much more elegant when showing it to thousands of persons :P

Also, it could be like in iOS (again), where you only need to enter it the first time. Subsequent purchases do not require password entry until a certain treshold is reached, or the internet connection shut down.

wirelessmacuser
Oct 21, 2010, 06:00 PM
This is fear mongering.
Not really.

The iPhone & iPad are low-powered devices with small screens, meant for non-advanced computing tasks.
True... thus far.

The Mac is not, so it won't have the same level of restriction.
I don't believe that nor do I trust Apple. Period.

This is the first step in dumbing down the Mac... sad but true.

I see the progression,
10.7 app store optional
10.8 app store mandatory

Generally speaking I'm very unhappy with the focus and direction of apple is going these days.
I concur.

I'm not only unhappy, I'm very concerned. It's looking more like dumbing them down like appliances so that as others have said, Grandma and Granny can use them. From Apples perspective it's just pure greed and profit taking.

The iPad was the first step. Apple was so successful in influencing people, even before it's debut, it was widely reported that when asked... many who planned on buying one weren't even sure what for. Now that is the power of Steve Jobs single area of true expertise... selling.

AttilaTheHun
Oct 21, 2010, 06:41 PM
My impressions from yesterday. I think I'll be staying on 10.6 Snow Leopard for a while. I don't see a reason to move to 10.7, Domesticated Shorthair, eh Lion.

Yes me too it look like MBP will stop to be computer it will be moltymedea.
so cool down as long as I can run my WIN 7 on my MBP I am on set.

goobot
Oct 21, 2010, 07:02 PM
Obviously my post was just a joke, but stuff like that does happen. If you watched the keynote you would have seen that there was one-click purchasing. No password was required.

because they are gana fill out a user id and password for the world to see? anyway i believe they do the same with ios demos

TMar
Oct 21, 2010, 10:29 PM
the ios devices were never open. not to mention apple wont sell any more computers if they locked it down. plus apps need other apps to be made. if it is locked down then there is 0 apps.

Yes, it's obvious that the iOS was never open. The point was that Apple's trend is that they are gaining more and more control while the user is slowly losing their ability to have any measure of control. iOS was built off of OS X but look at the figures. ~4 million macs sold to ~27 million iOS devices and now it's coming full circle and the iOS is influencing OS x development. Can we really say be blame them, go with what work right?

We all ways knew the line between the two platforms would become blurred at some point. I for one thought that it would be somewhere in the middle but it's seems the line is favoring the iOS at this point. If Apple keeps with the development trend they are on in 3 years time your Mac will be mostly locked down.


Your other points made absolutely no sense but I'll hit on them. 'Apple wont sell any more computer if they locked it down'. The ipad outsold all macs last quarter, need I say more? 'apps need other apps to be made' What? Hello, xcode on the app store, download it, make apps, put them on the app store. No need to have an open platform for that to work.

VPrime
Oct 21, 2010, 10:47 PM
'apps need other apps to be made' What? Hello, xcode on the app store, download it, make apps, put them on the app store. No need to have an open platform for that to work.
Xcode alone is not enough to write programs, games, and other apps.
Also, xcodes included tool set (along with the termina, which I personal consider part of ANY developer tool set) is what makes the OS open.

There are you have to do when developing apps that require an open OS.. an OS that gives you full access.:rolleyes:

So.. to wrap up.
You give users xcode and the termina...... You give users Freeeeeedommmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!

goobot
Oct 21, 2010, 10:48 PM
Your other points made absolutely no sense but I'll hit on them. 'Apple wont sell any more computer if they locked it down'. The ipad outsold all macs last quarter, need I say more?

the ipad is in a different market and different price range than a mac. if a mac gets locked down people are sure as hell are gana jump/stay on windows.

HLdan
Oct 21, 2010, 10:54 PM
the ipad is in a different market and different price range than a mac. if a mac gets locked down people are sure as hell are gana jump/stay on windows.

Doubt that it will get locked and double doubt that people will jump back on Windows. It's not like people don't have Mac software. Besides Windows 7 is so 1995 against just the small features shown in Lion.

goobot
Oct 21, 2010, 10:57 PM
double doubt that people will jump back on Windows. I

it has happened before. and if apple screws up again, it will happen again.

Big Dave
Oct 21, 2010, 11:03 PM
The worry is not all about the app store on the Mac. The worry is Steve showing slides of merging the iphone with the iPad and now the Mac. Those are the slides that bother me. The Mac is a tool and the iPad and iPhone are toys. Keep them separate.

dejo
Oct 21, 2010, 11:07 PM
it has happened before.
It has? Please elaborate.

TMar
Oct 21, 2010, 11:09 PM
the ipad is in a different market and different price range than a mac. if a mac gets locked down people are sure as hell are gana jump/stay on windows.

Different price range? The most expensive wi-fi ipad and a non-contract iPhone is the same price as the cheapest mac and the cheapest 3g ipad is almost the same price. Apple is doing a good job of blurring the lines between markets. While the ipad is an iOS device it is a tablet computer, with the emphasis on the last part of that.

You've got to look at it from Apple's perspective. iOS devices are outselling Macs plan and simple. So they must be doing something right on that platform that they're not doing on the other. Even if everyone did 'jump ship', what does it matter? Their focus as all ready switch to the iOS devices and they are beating that people will buy computers that are more iOS like.

dukebound85
Oct 21, 2010, 11:09 PM
The worry is not all about the app store on the Mac. The worry is Steve showing slides of merging the iphone with the iPad and now the Mac. Those are the slides that bother me. The Mac is a tool and the iPad and iPhone are toys. Keep them separate.

my iphone is a toy? funny how I use it as anything but:rolleyes:

goobot
Oct 21, 2010, 11:25 PM
It has? Please elaborate.

late 1990's, only reason apple is around now is because Microsoft saved them

Different price range? The most expensive wi-fi ipad and a non-contract iPhone is the same price as the cheapest mac and the cheapest 3g ipad is almost the same price. Apple is doing a good job of blurring the lines between markets. While the ipad is an iOS device it is a tablet computer, with the emphasis on the last part of that.

You've got to look at it from Apple's perspective. iOS devices are outselling Macs plan and simple. So they must be doing something right on that platform that they're not doing on the other. Even if everyone did 'jump ship', what does it matter? Their focus as all ready switch to the iOS devices and they are beating that people will buy computers that are more iOS like.

most dont buy a mac mini. and most dont buy the high end models of ios devices. plus when people buy an iphone they are buying with a contract so they are paying 200-300. most apple computers are in the 1000-1500 range. compare that to a 200/500 dollar device. plus the ipad and mac do have different purposes. also there really isnt a competitive tablet market yet and the ipad is also an e-reader. another point is if you already have a computer most wouldnt update meanwhile the ipad is brand new so no one has one yet.

TMar
Oct 21, 2010, 11:55 PM
most dont buy a mac mini. and most dont buy the high end models of ios devices. plus when people buy an iphone they are buying with a contract so they are paying 200-300. most apple computers are in the 1000-1500 range. compare that to a 200/500 dollar device. plus the ipad and mac do have different purposes. also there really isnt a competitive tablet market yet and the ipad is also an e-reader. another point is if you already have a computer most wouldnt update meanwhile the ipad is brand new so no one has one yet.

It's not a big leap from a $6-700 3g ipad to a $999 macbook. The point is that the price points overlap in the different lineups. We have to admit that power users aren't the focus group of computer makes we use to be. The vast majority of macs sold are use to get on the internet, email, office tools, and maybe the occasional game. Those are the exact selling points for the ipad so I don't see where they have different purposes. While you and I might have different uses for our computer then for our devices, we are the minority in the bigger picture. For every mac sold for a 'different purpose' there is 100 sold that will only ever have safari/mail opened on it regardless of the fact that's it's capable of more, sad fact.

I think the competition isn't limited to tablets. Most people that are buying ipads are doing so over buying a laptop because it serves the purposes they were going to use the laptop for. 4.19 millions ipads sold last quarter, that's probably ~3.9 million laptops that didn't get bought.

Weepul
Oct 22, 2010, 01:29 AM
I'm not too worried by the inclusion of more consumer-focused features. So far, it hasn't looked like they will be mandatory to use. It's things like the possible replacement of useful scroll bars with rubber-bandy auto-hiding thin ones, which would make everyday use just a little more annoying if you use your computer more seriously, that are troubling. (Past examples: removal of the ability to navigate subdirectories from docked folders [although later reinstated], the blandification of home folder icons making visual recognition slower...)

In the end, though, even if "prosumer" and "professional" users are a minority, they still need to be considered important by Apple. Who makes the apps they market? Who produces the songs and the movies and the e-books? Which platform would Apple rather have them use? Which brand would Apple like to have them associate with? Which brand would Apple like power users to have so their less tech-savvy family and friends will buy the same brand so they can readily get help as necessary?

I'll be surprised if Apple does anything too utterly onerous to utilitarian usage, because Apple doesn't seem that stupid or suicidal. ...although the worst-case scenario is plausible: that the App and iTunes stores prove profitable enough to content creators that they are willing to put up with a toyish OS out of economic-driven necessity, leaving "prosumers" and power users on the shaft given by Apple... :eek:

Another possibility is the introduction of "OS X Pro", now with less annoying features!, but Apple has been pointedly staying away from making tiers of their desktop OS.

aeaglex07
Oct 22, 2010, 09:03 AM
if M$ were doing this there would be alot of "AntiTrust" ruckus

netdog
Oct 22, 2010, 09:08 AM
late 1990's, only reason apple is around now is because Microsoft saved them

Funny how people forget this.

Of course Gates wanted Microsoft to tower over all the others, but he has always applauded the Macintosh, and even copied it.

Yep, Gates saved Apple. There was no doubt about that. Their money and their commitment to the Mac platform was vital to Apple surviving.

alent1234
Oct 22, 2010, 10:12 AM
the ios devices were never open. not to mention apple wont sell any more computers if they locked it down. plus apps need other apps to be made. if it is locked down then there is 0 apps.

yes they will

apple isn't marketing to the young and hip anymore, now it's the baby boomers. my mom lives 2000 miles away and i look at her dell laptop when i see her. few years ago i installed logmein so i can do it remotely.

if she needs something i have to get on the phone, spell out a website to download a program, listen to her read crap, etc. with the mac app store old people will just use it to easily find software.

the whole iphoto is geared towards old people showing off pictures of their grand kids and family functions. when i got married my wife had the photographer make a wedding album book. after the keynote i was wondering if it would be cheaper next time to just buy a Mac and have Apple do it.

most of the luxury cars are driven by older people. once you get rid of your kids and pay off the house you have a lot of money lying around so people find ways to spend it. at the very least people in their 50's will make more than what they did while their housing costs will grow at a slower rate. Apple knows what they are doing.

da-vid
Oct 22, 2010, 12:10 PM
Ugh, seriously? Why is the Mac App Store controversial?

This is what's happening with the App Store: *no changes whatsoever* to how OS X works, but Apple is just rolling out a new marketplace that allows Mac users to more easily find and purchase applications.

You don't have to use it if you don't want to.

In fact, Steve Jobs explicitly stated during the keynote that this will only be "one" way -- "not the only" way -- to get apps for the Mac. Did everyone miss that or something?

Seriously. This is ridiculous. No further discussion needed.

lewis82
Oct 22, 2010, 12:49 PM
Ugh, seriously? Why is the Mac App Store controversial?

This is what's happening with the App Store: *no changes whatsoever* to how OS X works, but Apple is just rolling out a new marketplace that allows Mac users to more easily find and purchase applications.

You don't have to use it if you don't want to.

In fact, Steve Jobs explicitly stated during the keynote that this will only be "one" way -- "not the only" way -- to get apps for the Mac. Did everyone miss that or something?

Seriously. This is ridiculous. No further discussion needed.

For now there is no problem. As long as it is optional, I'm happy. But maybe, maybe, 10.8 will make this mandatory. I think it won't, but Apple has a known history of controversial decisions and yet they are still in business. There is a very slight possibility of this happening, in which case I'm downloading Ubuntu.

unixperience
Oct 22, 2010, 02:28 PM
Ugh, seriously? Why is the Mac App Store controversial?

This is what's happening with the App Store: *no changes whatsoever* to how OS X works, but Apple is just rolling out a new marketplace that allows Mac users to more easily find and purchase applications.
.........
Seriously. This is ridiculous. No further discussion needed.
slightly paraphrased hope I don't offend you

In any event I agree. i think the real problem is that he kept emphasizing like iOS iOS iOs if they just said, hey heres a mac apstore, most people wouldn't care, but once they put mac appstore and iOS in the same sentence they screwed themselves over, hence the mass panic, of locked down macs.

Corndog5595
Oct 22, 2010, 02:42 PM
slightly paraphrased hope I don't offend you

In any event I agree. i think the real problem is that he kept emphasizing like iOS iOS iOs if they just said, hey heres a mac apstore, most people wouldn't care, but once they put mac appstore and iOS in the same sentence they screwed themselves over, hence the mass panic, of locked down macs.

They showed that graph and people went, "oh ****."

da-vid
Oct 23, 2010, 03:34 AM
For now there is no problem. As long as it is optional, I'm happy. But maybe, maybe, 10.8 will make this mandatory. I think it won't, but Apple has a known history of controversial decisions and yet they are still in business. There is a very slight possibility of this happening, in which case I'm downloading Ubuntu.

And maybe, maybe, someone you know will become a serial killer and murder everyone in your neighborhood.

What's your point?

You're making completely baseless speculation. There is literally no semblance of evidence whatsoever to support your line of thought.

kuwisdelu
Oct 23, 2010, 03:51 AM
There were three arrows in that Mac/iPhone/iPad circle.

Is it impossible to consider that in addition to OS X getting some iOS features, maybe some of OS X's freedoms and power will eventually make its way to iOS?

GuntherS
Oct 23, 2010, 04:55 AM
I think the Mac App Store would be good for developers. Especially for the new developers.

With the Mac App Store it's so easy to find new software, just like on the iPad and iPhone/iPod touch. You can take a look at the top selling apps and people can share experiences with each-other by reviewing the apps. When you have a lot of positive reviews, people will be more motivated to buy your app.

It's a great way to easily install software and keeping it up to date. That's good news for new Mac users who like the simplicity of this.

You don't have to use the Mac App Store if you don't like it. You can just keep installing software the way you do it now.

kingv84
Oct 23, 2010, 05:11 AM
All the people on this thread who are scared and do not trust Apple, just pack your bags and move over to Redmond. The App store is not the only way to install apps, it is basically a digital download service like Steam and the old Windows Marketplace.

Most of the users on this forum are just spreading FUD about Apple planning to lock down the Mac. I do not see this happening, this would just spell the end of the Mac and force users toward Windows.

Let's all wait and see what happens. Let's not spread crap. :apple:

mrblack927
Oct 23, 2010, 08:04 AM
...this would just spell the end of the Mac and force users toward Windows...

For everyone spouting this line over and over. First of all, you don't know that. That's just as speculative as the idea that they would lock it down in the first place.

As others have pointed out, Apple does not market to us, the "power users". The vast majority of their consumer base is as computer illiterate as most of our parents and grandparents. The iPhone and iPad have enjoyed incredible success due to their simplicity and inability to "break", ie. you can't corrupt any files if you don't have access to the filesystem. Following this line of thought, I see no reason why they wouldn't want to apply this same business model to the Mac. If they do it right, not only would they not lose customers, they would probably see a massive boost in market share.

Just look at all the Windows 7 commercials... all they do now is advertise simplicity. That's what the majority wants. Blind, drop-dead obvious, simplicity. So Apple, being a for-profit corporation, has to choose whether to alienate a few million users (us) in order to gain tens of millions of users (the average consumer). What do you think they will choose?



*Side note: I only say this to point out the other side to this argument. Not necessarily that I think Apple will completely lock-down the Mac. I don't think they will. The fact is they have to support their developers, and their developers will always need low-level system tools. I do however think that they will continue "dumbing down" the mac as much as they can, and it's going to piss a lot of people off. We may not be headed for "full lock-down", but maybe something close to that. Only time will tell. All I'm saying is it seems to make good business sense, regardless of what we (the original Apple geeks) want. It's a shame.

RobeeSVK
Oct 23, 2010, 08:27 AM
As others have pointed out, Apple does not market to us, the "power users". The vast majority of their consumer base is as computer illiterate as most of our parents and grandparents. The iPhone and iPad have enjoyed incredible success due to their simplicity and inability to "break", ie. you can't corrupt any files if you don't have access to the filesystem. Following this line of thought, I see no reason why they wouldn't want to apply this same business model to the Mac. If they do it right, not only would they not lose customers, they would probably see a massive boost in market share.


Well, I am not sure. First of all, simplicity is just one of the key factors, I assume you know it. What you said would be completely true if the Mac OS X was a standalone system for any x86 based device. But it is not and there are no signs of planning the opposite. Mac OS X comes with special and above-average priced hardware.

With iDevices flourishing, those "average" customers have discovered an alternate world of smaller and smart devices, capable of features that were previously known in PC world. Plus simplicity as bonus. Many of these customers would eventually move solely to these devices combined with TV probably. Even if not, PC market is well established, if Windows is not up to the task, why not for example Ubuntu in following years? Why to buy Apple, reasonably expensive hardware (do not mistake for overpriced)? The pros of mobile iDevices are clear (although competition is expected to minimize the gap). But why should an average user buy a Mac? Simplicity? To pay the double price to have something with similar capabilities of iPad?

Computer market (educated guess) will start to shrink and become again more professional place, with limited number of customers of course, but probably also with more added value. The question is whether Apple wants its cut. But I doubt that consumers will move to Mac in large numbers for simplicity. Even if they would find themselves in a need of standard computer, they will choose Windows like nowadays. More likely.

Bottom line, I cannot see a reason to fight a battle for average customer on computer market. Either for AC with mobile/simple devices (Apple is doing well) or for prof. users with appropriate hardware (Apple was doing well and we hope it will continue)

lewis82
Oct 23, 2010, 10:55 AM
And maybe, maybe, someone you know will become a serial killer and murder everyone in your neighborhood.

What's your point?

You're making completely baseless speculation. There is literally no semblance of evidence whatsoever to support your line of thought.

Jobs kept mentionning "iOS" all the time. iOS going "Back to the Mac". I don't think he said it in these works, but it seems he wants to close the gap between OS X and iOS. It's not hard to imagine a closed OS X after that.

Now I know it looks like a conspiracy theory. It's not. I know Lion will still allow apps downloaded from the web and I am confident that 10.8 and all other successive versions will support it. However, I can't predict the future, and neither can you, so we may be surprised.

da-vid
Oct 23, 2010, 12:11 PM
Jobs kept mentionning "iOS" all the time. iOS going "Back to the Mac". I don't think he said it in these works, but it seems he wants to close the gap between OS X and iOS. It's not hard to imagine a closed OS X after that.

Now I know it looks like a conspiracy theory. It's not. I know Lion will still allow apps downloaded from the web and I am confident that 10.8 and all other successive versions will support it. However, I can't predict the future, and neither can you, so we may be surprised.

How the hell is Apple going to profit from making OS X closed off like the iPhone? No Adobe, Microsoft, or other big companies' software; there goes 90% of your userbase.

Why is being "closed" the only feature of iOS? You do realize that there are other significant differences between iOS and OS X, right? One being the home screen app launcher, which is being introduced to Lion. How does an iPhone-like app launcher make the OS more "closed"? How does having, for example, iPhone-like scrollbars make the OS more "closed"?

Once again: iOS's feature list extends far beyond being "closed."

mrsir2009
Oct 26, 2010, 01:07 PM
If Apple locked down the Mac in any way, hacks would come out for it instantly, and we'd all use them to break our Mac free again!

tharris0101
Oct 28, 2010, 06:08 PM
No need to worry unless Apple totally rewrites OS X to not use any open source code. OS X is great because its a UNIX based OS. I think Apple knows that and won't mess with its main strength (a rock solid foundation). As long as its UNIX (especially using FreeBSD and NetBSD code) based, it will remain open.

Matt T
Oct 28, 2010, 08:22 PM
I really don't see what all the fuss is about - I like the idea of the Mac app store. Apple would be stupid to make it the only way of installing software for OS X, and they're not stupid - this is just a new way for people to discover and purchase new software, just like iTunes let's us discover new music, and the iOS app store let's us discover new apps. This is a good thing.

Take the iWork applications, for example. I'm sorry to say that, as much as I love Pages, I have never purchased it because A$129 is waaay too much to pay just for a word processor, and I will never in my life have a need for Keynote or Numbers - it was too much of a waste. And then even after purchasing it, you would have to wait for the disks to arrive in the mail, unpackage it all and wait for them to install off the disk (slow). It kind of seems silly in 2010. Now with the app store, I can simply purchase Pages by itself (which I am more than happy to do, especially since buying the apps individually appears to be cheaper than buying the set) and it installs in 10 seconds. THAT is the way software should be these days.

My only concern is Apple's strict submission guidelines. It's a shame that applications such as Transmission probably won't be allowed into the store because Apple isn't a big fan of torrents. On the plus side, Transmission will still be available as a download from their web site. As I said before, Apple aren't stupid - they aren't going to cripple their Mac developer base by locking everything down into the Mac app store.

For "safe" apps, this is going to be great exposure to new customers. For other apps, nothing changes. I don't see any problems here at all.

Everyone relax! :cool:

8CoreWhore
Nov 4, 2010, 07:58 PM
It would be illegal for Apple to say, "You can only purchase Mac software through us and not Amazon and Newegg, etc".

They are walking a tight rope doing that with the phone, but won't get away with it for a full blown computer. And they sure as hell would never get away with that in Europe.

People are seeing a "trend" where none exists. Apple is merely adding to OS X, not taking away from it. Stop listening to boobs like Leo LaPorte.

Jobs said nothing that should lead one to believe this silly fear.

ImperialX
Nov 4, 2010, 09:43 PM
That would put an end to any 3rd party support from developers.. With out 3rd party, there is no applications. With out applications there are no customers.

It just isn't logical to close off a system that has to be open for their whole app infrastructure to thrive.

Really? iOS doesn't seem to lack developers.

goobot
Nov 4, 2010, 09:49 PM
Really? iOS doesn't seem to lack developers.

Because they make them on a Mac. If they close it where the hell are they gana get any apps? Windows?!

CosmicChild87
Nov 4, 2010, 09:58 PM
Everyone is speculating massively here - and personaly I'm excited about the possibility of some great new features.

At no point has it been said that apple are going to close down OSX and until they say that they are going to Im more than happy to embrace new features

Bernard SG
Nov 4, 2010, 10:45 PM
While I agree with you that it apple does provide some good services for the developer, make no mistake, they (Apple) make a tidy profit on the sale. They're not doing this out of altruism, but for the simple fact of creating another revenue stream.

I don't think so. As of today, the iTunes Store - with songs and gazillion downloads of iOS Apps - is reportedly at break-even, and the revenue itself is a tiny portion of Apple's revenue.
They are more looking for long-term indirect benefits. They are seeing, probably with some surprise, that Macs are growing in sales, despite competing with the iPad, to some extent. However, such an unexpected surge might just be a fad if Apple doesn't do something serious to consolidate it and create a long term trend, and the only way to achieve that is by increasing the offer of applications for the Mac, giving the end users more choice and, even better, new interesting things that they can do on their computer.
I predict that there will be a whole bunch of very successful freeware hitting the e-shelves of the Mac App Store. The model of free "Lite" versions and pay full version will flourish as well.
Energizing the Mac Community - developers as well as users - is much, much more important to Apple than making a few more bucks through the App Store model.
Just look at how iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad users enthusiastically share information on the apps they use and, therefore, promote the products by word of mouth and also create curiosity with people who don't own those devices. It's absolutely amazing and magical - to use a Jobs-esque rhetoric-style. Now imagine the same inside the Mac Community at large --> profit with Macs selling like hotcakes.

Michaelgtrusa
Nov 5, 2010, 12:26 AM
I'll need more time, but for now, no!:apple:

wkw
Nov 8, 2010, 01:02 AM
just do whatever steve says! he's the man!

kntgsp
Nov 10, 2010, 08:31 PM
Maybe I'm being short sighted but I don't agree. The iDevices are locked down mostly due to cell network restrictions. So far Macs don't have built in cell antennas so there is no reason to lock them down. That may happen in the future but Macs and OS X will have to really change before Apple will be able to lock them down like they did with the iDevices.

Hey yea, that's why all those laptops that have been on the market for years and years and years with built-in GSM/CDMA modems are all locked down right?

Or Android. Because all that side-loading is imaginary and it's due to cell network restrictions.


Cell networks have absolutely nothing to do with it. It is about control and revenue. That's it. Stop trying to invent things to make it seem like poor innocent Apple is being strong-armed into locking down their OS.

kntgsp
Nov 10, 2010, 08:35 PM
How the hell is Apple going to profit from making OS X closed off like the iPhone? No Adobe, Microsoft, or other big companies' software; there goes 90% of your userbase.

That makes absolutely no sense? Apple has to approve all the applications made available to OSX users if they go completely closed. You really think they're not going to approve Office or Creative Suite for the OSX App Store? :rolleyes:



Why is being "closed" the only feature of iOS? You do realize that there are other significant differences between iOS and OS X, right? One being the home screen app launcher, which is being introduced to Lion.

Yea because that whole "dock" thing at the bottom with all your programs listed was inefficient. What we need is all of our programs turned into square icons and strewn across the screen like digital cat barf anytime we need to launch a program.

How does an iPhone-like app launcher make the OS more "closed"? How does having, for example, iPhone-like scrollbars make the OS more "closed"?

Once again: iOS's feature list extends far beyond being "closed."

Correct. It extends into restrictive, stifling, oppressive, archaic, etc. etc.

barkmonster
Nov 10, 2010, 08:43 PM
I'm sure it's no more than an extension of the Widgets we already have in Dashboard but a paid for version with the ability to run the apps full screen and have more complex applications than simple web based news apps etc...

v5point0
Nov 10, 2010, 10:49 PM
If things really get worse on OS X, I will be dual booting Chrome OS on my machine.

applemagic123
Nov 11, 2010, 12:28 AM
If things really get worse on OS X, I will be dual booting Chrome OS on my machine.
I already have 2 partitions on my iMac: The biggest for 10.5 leopard and the smallest being 10.6 snow leopard. Snow leopard SUCKS huge donkey chunks. I only use it for torrenting and for more intensive 64 bit stuff.

applemagic123
Nov 11, 2010, 12:33 AM
What you guys are failing to see is that even though the mac app store will not be the only way to install apps, there are STRICT rules as to what the mac app store can and cannot accept. Most people switching over to mac from PC who are not computer savvy do not realize this. They just think, "Oh, how convenient, a mac app store." They don't see the bigger picture. If the mac app store is anything like iOS app store, it will become apparent pretty fast that there are a surge of useless apps made by some random nobody in japan, or a large number of the same app but only with a different name and interface.

There are some really good apps that will not be allowed on the mac app store that all those un-computer savvy people will never know existed. I think that is a real big shame on the part of the developer.

v5point0
Nov 11, 2010, 12:50 AM
I already have 2 partitions on my iMac: The biggest for 10.5 leopard and the smallest being 10.6 snow leopard. Snow leopard SUCKS huge donkey chunks. I only use it for torrenting and for more intensive 64 bit stuff.

I am happily using 10.5.8 as well, don't really find a need for 10.6. Maybe I will get a new computer when 10.7 releases but somehow I feel Apple has gone lazy after Leopard. I don't want iOS on my desktop :(

iRovaedne
Nov 11, 2010, 02:56 PM
Well I think app store will be ok,
cuz it enables u to get a number of apps and u can also develop ur own tools at the same time.

roadbloc
Nov 11, 2010, 03:03 PM
Man 1: How'd you lose your car man?
Man 2: Well, I let my 10 year old son on my computer when I wasn't home. He went into the App Store and accidentally bought AutoCAD.
Man 1: Oh, so you didn't set up your parental controls?


Is this Mac app store going to make it easier for people to "steal" apps? With traditional software, you have to have a lengthy activation code. Sure, those can be generated for free, but for many apps it's difficult or impossible to find them. And/or a crack has to be developed that is both difficult to find and install for basic users.
Just like iTunes and Steam have made it easier for people to "steal" digital products? :rolleyes:

MattInOz
Nov 11, 2010, 11:22 PM
I see the progression,

Generally speaking I'm very unhappy with the focus and direction of apple is going these days.

You mean the direction of Opening stuff up and bring opportunities for developers as they do?

Yes the only way to Install native on the iDevices is via Apple and they aren't likely to open that up anytime soon*. Plus this move on the Mac is about promoting access to customers. Apple will keep them as their customers for various reasons good and bad, but it's still an extra opening.

If look a little deeper than just the surface then each new version of iOS has brought a more open development environment. Plus Apple have been sponsoring improvements to WebApps which are fully open, the whole time.

So I'm confused, if your unhappy, and would like them to reverse direction, does that mean you want them to be more closed, like the Original Mac Days?

*there are some fun ways around it like starting a co-op and buy an Enterprise Account or Jailbreaking take your pick.

v5point0
Nov 12, 2010, 12:35 AM
If look a little deeper than just the surface then each new version of iOS has brought a more open development environment.

It could just be that Apple is trying to bring developers from the iOS on to Mac OS X by providing an easier transition via Apple's guidance - The Mac App Store.

Lord Appleseed
Nov 12, 2010, 07:45 AM
Time changes everything, including Harware and Software. The New Mac OSX Lion just goes with this change. Apple would be stupid not to take this course when it's obvious that it leads to success.
Pople that say Mac OSX becomes more like a toy are a bit frozen in time from my point of view.

limo79
Nov 16, 2010, 02:43 PM
I don't usually whine but here goes:
I think that Steve is steadily turning Macs from tools to toys. The app store on the Mac is one step in my opinion to take away the ability to develop your own tools. This might be a stretch, but think about how locked down the iPhone and iPad are. It won't be long until the Mac is on lockdown too. The terminal is on the endangered list in my opinion.

I agree. Apple goes in direction to create toys because it is easier and they can earn more money via iTunes and control developers (AppStore) etc Thus we have iPad, iPod, iPhone.

Macs loose regularly all Pro attributes from the past - matte displays, express card slot. They still have lack of the newest technology BluRay, USB 3.0 etc We heard about stop selling XServe.

It is funny that such brave company like Apple started presentation of new OS describing changes in interface.

wrldwzrd89
Nov 16, 2010, 05:39 PM
I agree. Apple goes in direction to create toys because it is easier and they can earn more money via iTunes and control developers (AppStore) etc Thus we have iPad, iPod, iPhone.

Macs loose regularly all Pro attributes from the past - matte displays, express card slot. They still have lack of the newest technology BluRay, USB 3.0 etc We heard about stop selling XServe.

It is funny that such brave company like Apple started presentation of new OS describing changes in interface.
First point: Spot-on.

Second point: Spot-on about matte displays and expresscard slots. However, USB 3.0, as fast as it is, won't be needed on the Mac when Light Peak debuts. Personally, I wish Apple implemented Blu-Ray data support only, as watching BD movies doesn't appeal to me. There are upsides and downsides to Apple's approach to Blu-Ray, but I firmly believe Apple has a reason besides just the often-trotted iTunes ecosystem to skip it.

MattInOz
Nov 16, 2010, 06:32 PM
It could just be that Apple is trying to bring developers from the iOS on to Mac OS X by providing an easier transition via Apple's guidance - The Mac App Store.

Exactly, especially the one with Enterprise iOS Developer Accounts.

dejo
Nov 16, 2010, 06:43 PM
late 1990's, only reason apple is around now is because Microsoft saved them
Um, that's hardly the only reason. And besides, what does that have to do with people jumping back to Windows?

admanimal
Nov 16, 2010, 06:50 PM
I agree. Apple goes in direction to create toys because it is easier and they can earn more money via iTunes and control developers (AppStore) etc Thus we have iPad, iPod, iPhone.



If it's so easy to create "toys" like the iPad, iPod, and iPhone, why have all attempts by other companies to make products that are as popular failed? Could it have something to do with the fact that they are all too complicated and packed with features that are useless to most people?

I would be as annoyed as anyone if the ability to run command line tools suddenly disappeared from Mac OS, but on the other hand, 95% of people who have Macs probably have no clue that Terminal or X11 even exists, so I can't really blame Apple for making a product that is more suited to the needs of the majority of its user base.

One day in the not-too-distant future most people will own computers that are way more like iPads than Macs in the sense that they could be considered an appliance rather than a computer by today's standards. All of the people freaking out about change in this forum might as well come to grips with this fact sooner rather than later.

mox358
Nov 16, 2010, 08:52 PM
Maybe it's just me, but I think this situation is much simpler than it's being made out to be. Apple isn't planning world domination by locking down Mac OS, that would be stupid. But one area where OSX, despite how amazing it is, falls short is software. There is such a large amount of software that is available for Windows and can be easily acquired. Mac software tends to be much more difficult to come by unless you live near an Apple Store or Apple reseller. Where I live it's a 1 hour drive to the nearest shop that sells Mac software. The App Store has proven to be a winning formula, so why not provide an easy way to get software in front of Mac users so they can easily purchase it?

For the average user, it's much less scary to give Apple your CC # and buy apps from the App Store (with the option to still goto an Apple Store and buy DVDs of software as well) than buy programs from Mac software companies websites that you may have never heard of, even if they're legit. It's all about attracting more developers, making users feel more secure, increasing the quantity of available Mac software, and growing the platform.

Apple's Mac sales are at all time highs every quarter... you really think they want to kill that by locking down the platform?

wirelessmacuser
Nov 16, 2010, 09:59 PM
No other computer company has veered off into the entertainment arena like Apple. Using their brilliant marketing, their existing and unusually compliant fan base, they've proven the depth of their influence and persuasiveness. By dumbing down devices they've joined WalMart in the mainstream. Appealing to a very broad customer base with fool proof toys has paid them extremely well. As these same customers realize the smartphone is replacing the computer for those who didn't truly need a computer in the first place, Apple is well positioned. Apple's got the game of building toys for kids & adults down cold. It's a game of numbers, no one knows better than Jobs, the advantage of appealing to those who find a computer too overwhelming or too expensive.

admanimal
Nov 16, 2010, 11:58 PM
I don't get this whole pejorative "toys" label that so many people here give to iOS devices. If the Mac was locked down iOS style but still had desktop-class apps (i.e. Word, Pages, Excel, etc.) I guarantee you that 95% of people using them would still be able to do the same work on them that they currently do. I assume the people throwing the "toys" label around wouldn't apply it to an Android device, yet the people with those devices probably do exactly the same things with them that people with iOS devices do in 99% of cases.

xxxamazexxx
Nov 17, 2010, 12:45 PM
I'm deciding on migrating to Mac and this freaked me out ! I never thought of Apple being so stealthy and evil !

I would definitely welcome the Mac Store as a channel to get orthodox softwares, but there must be a little back door where we deal with other businesses. For example, I got an indispensable makeshift application on my Windows that corrects faulty mp3 files and which if Windows ever disapproved of, I would abandon the computer altogether.

admanimal
Nov 17, 2010, 12:57 PM
I'm deciding on migrating to Mac and this freaked me out ! I never thought of Apple being so stealthy and evil !

I would definitely welcome the Mac Store as a channel to get orthodox softwares, but there must be a little back door where we deal with other businesses. For example, I got an indispensable makeshift application on my Windows that corrects faulty mp3 files and which if Windows ever disapproved of, I would abandon the computer altogether.

Don't listen to FUD these people are spewing. Get a Mac and you'll love it. People on this forum are famous for their negative overreactions.

netdog
Nov 17, 2010, 01:00 PM
I don't usually whine but here goes:
I think that Steve is steadily turning Macs from tools to toys. The app store on the Mac is one step in my opinion to take away the ability to develop your own tools. This might be a stretch, but think about how locked down the iPhone and iPad are. It won't be long until the Mac is on lockdown too. The terminal is on the endangered list in my opinion.

It's a stretch.

We barely know anything about Lion. Really we probably only know what Apple figured the folks in Redwood couldn't copy quickly.

Lion is going to be great, and nobody is locking down the Mac. For developers, however, the Mac App Store is going to be great. It will drive a lot of sales.

hachre
Nov 17, 2010, 06:37 PM
If Apple locks down Mac OS, I'm going back to Linux. That being said. Steve Jobs isn't stupid...

thomasslaughter
Nov 27, 2010, 09:46 AM
Am I seriously the only person on this forum with the mental capacity to see that the 'App Store' which will be included on 10.7 is basically going to be a fancy version of the application repository system on linux.

Like this:
http://www.ubuntu.com/files/u1/addopera9.png

hachre
Nov 27, 2010, 09:56 AM
Am I seriously the only person on this forum with the mental capacity to see that the 'App Store' which will be included on 10.7 is basically going to be a fancy version of the application repository system on linux.

Like this:
http://www.ubuntu.com/files/u1/addopera9.png

Linux has 800 app repository systems, 800000 repositories and 80000 versions of the same app packaged for each of those repository systems and each linux distribution out there. It's a big ****ing mess.

greenmeanie
Nov 30, 2010, 07:16 AM
But will we be able to delete the Mac Store since I never need it now?

Right, because everyone knows you won't be able to install things from anywhere other than the mac store. :rolleyes:

greenmeanie
Nov 30, 2010, 07:17 AM
No I told my wife Linux has been doing this for awhile now LOL.

Linux has 800 app repository systems, 800000 repositories and 80000 versions of the same app packaged for each of those repository systems and each linux distribution out there. It's a big ****ing mess.

wrldwzrd89
Nov 30, 2010, 10:06 AM
But will we be able to delete the Mac Store since I never need it now?
You could always opt not to install it on Snow Leopard. However, you won't have that option on Lion.

Blondie :)
Nov 30, 2010, 11:15 AM
I don't think that apple will take the direction that everyone is thinking it will. Apple is definitely money hungry, we all know that, and all of our wallets know that. But it would be extremely difficult to make it so that apple users can only download stuff from the mac store. People will always make Mac compatible software and put it out on the internet. And as far as for developing on the Mac, apple would have to be seriously stupid in order to cut all developing applications from mac users. It's just not logically economical for apple to do that sort of a thing. Maybe one day that type of a thing will happen, but definitely not for a while

mikelegacy
Dec 5, 2010, 04:34 PM
late 1990's, only reason apple is around now is because Microsoft saved them

Do you REALLY think Microsoft invested 500 million dollars into Apple to save their competition? If so, I'd hate to see how fast your business fell if you started one. Microsoft knew that Apple was going uphill when Steve Jobs came back and I'm sure he had some sort of inside knowledge of the soon to be released Macintosh, so investing in Apple stock wouldn't really seem like a saving grace if you look at it that way would it? It's just smart business.

krravi
Dec 7, 2010, 12:38 AM
I dont know why there is so much confusion about the Mac App Store. If you really think about it, the APP STORE was what made Apple what it is today(*).

The iPads and the iPhones arent magical and revolutionary. Its the Apps that make them so. And having tried the App Store they became instant hits and finally Apple knew a way to sell its products to the masses. Remember this is a 30 + year old company that has constantly struggled with its demons(jobs and his eccentric ways).

So what made Apple tick after 30 years? Was it the MacOSX? Was it NeXT? Was it Unix underneath that OS X? Was it the eye candy of the OSX? Was it the sunflower like Mac? None of it. It was the frigging App Store.

Developers around the world, made Apple a household name. Its more like a open source project with revenue and "open" is a metaphor.

Having said that, i have always wondered why the Mac has languished while their other products took off and even joked among friends who had mac's that time that their machine was going to become one huge iTunes/App Store brick and forget all that regular computing stuff.

I think Apple wants to share some of its "magic" or success in the Mac side of things by brining the App Store. Finally thousands of brilliant developers for Mac will see the light of day. I love my Onyx App and cant believe its free.

Its about time these developers got paid for their work and this success is crucial for Apple to cement their position for their initial dream, which is to "put a computer in everyones home" a mac that is.

Windows was successful for this very reason. OS Lion is a roar that Mac is back in the game with Microsoft to win the hearts and minds of average people when it comes to desktops. While Microsoft has already captured the world, its only natural for the empire to eventually collapse under its own weight and Apple wants to be right there when it happens.

I personally dont care for the ease or simplicity of the Mac Store Apps. I can find my way around. But if its so easy for anyone to download a App and enjoy it like they do on their iPads/iPhones, i think its a good start.

Whats an app store for the mac anyways? A glorified "Dashboard" as we know it.

MacHamster68
Dec 14, 2010, 12:18 AM
but the fear is that ONLY apple approved app's can be installed in the future , a very small step away of getting told what you are allowed to install on your Mac and what not , which would actually be a good thing , finally a way for authorities to control what every Mac user is doing on their Mac , its only a small step away , think of it the next step is that app's can only be installed via the app store and by no other means
it then comes down to local laws , when you get a message
"sorry this app is not allowed to be installed in your country "

like you get already these messages when just watching youtube when you cant listen music in a video there because of copyright issues in certain countries ,
so some countries could do the same with the app store ..limit access to certain apps

Ifti
Dec 14, 2010, 07:37 AM
The way I saw it is that the MAC store is a great opportunity to increase the software librray on the MAC platform. People will be creating MAC apps and games, like they do on the app store for the iPad and iPhone. Lets face it, the OSX platform is lacking in software titles, and the MAC Store should help get round that.

Now, I dont understand why people assume the normal MAC interface will be over-run with an iOS interface??
From the videos Ive seen, the MAC interface stays almost the same. You have an extra icon in the dock to launch the MAC store (which will be available to Snow Leopard users also), and you have an extra icon which launches the iOS type interface, where you can easily see and run your apps. Where is the mention of the standard finder interface etc vanishing???

From what I see, Lion is an update to Snow Leopard, with the additon of a few modules, such as the MAC store, the iOS interface launcher, and some other extra features such as the way we view which applications we have open etc.

So why the fuss??
Am I missing some major announcement or something?

MattInOz
Dec 14, 2010, 02:37 PM
but the fear is that ONLY apple approved app's can be installed in the future , a very small step away of getting told what you are allowed to install on your Mac and what not , which would actually be a good thing , finally a way for authorities to control what every Mac user is doing on their Mac , its only a small step away , think of it the next step is that app's can only be installed via the app store and by no other means
it then comes down to local laws , when you get a message
"sorry this app is not allowed to be installed in your country "

like you get already these messages when just watching youtube when you cant listen music in a video there because of copyright issues in certain countries ,
so some countries could do the same with the app store ..limit access to certain apps

It's not the country that limits access its the copyright holder. The only apps I've seen locked out are the regional gps apps probable due maps license.

doshirj
Dec 15, 2010, 05:55 PM
I don't think Apple will ever lock down Macs to the same degree as iOS devices. I do think that the App Store will become the de facto means of acquiring apps for users. Thus, comercial apps that are ineligible for the App Store will begin to suffer (open source and freeware apps should still be ok).

Joseph Meltzer
Dec 20, 2010, 02:53 AM
There is NO WAY that the Mac OS will be 'closed in' like iPhone OS. People will not want a new version of an OS that can't do what the previous version could, even if it does look cooler.

If the App Store becomes the only means of getting applications, then how are frameworks such as Adobe Flash and other things Apple doesn't approve of supposed to survive? No more Photoshop? No more Carbon C++ applications?

Anyway, if the operating system is to be closed in, then the Finder will disappear. Well, not completely, but you won't have any sophisticated info and access to all folders. Also, we won't be able to get 'potentially law-breaking' apps such as BitTorrent clients and other similar programs.

Denarius
Dec 20, 2010, 11:14 AM
I don't usually whine but here goes:
I think that Steve is steadily turning Macs from tools to toys. The app store on the Mac is one step in my opinion to take away the ability to develop your own tools. This might be a stretch, but think about how locked down the iPhone and iPad are. It won't be long until the Mac is on lockdown too. The terminal is on the endangered list in my opinion.

I definitely agree with this sentiment. The rot started to set in in my view when the MacBook Pro lost the ExpressCard for all but the most expensive model with the largest screen. Even there it was an extra option. ExpressCard is often useful in a pro environment (I use a MOTU video capture system that requires ExpressCard) so upgrading my MacBook pro is not desirable as I have no wish to pay the extra for the larger screen. Seeing as MS seem to have got their act together of late, I suspect I'll be, regrettably, migrating to PC when my MBP 3,1 reaches the end of its useful life. But I guess Apple must have already considered the ramifications when they made the decision so there's really no point moaning. Microsoft here I come (unless Adobe fancy making a Red Hat version of Premiere maybe?).

It's no surprise that the philosophy is filtering into the OS: Just more gimmicks and more attempts to use your own machine to sell you more stuff through a machine you've already paid a premium for.

intervenient
Dec 21, 2010, 05:02 AM
What I'm not getting is so many of you saying that Apple is losing the "hardcore" or the "true fans". When has Apple been anything more than a money maker? I can't think of any time during Apple's history that it hasn't tried to appeal to a mass market, or charge a premium for their products by exchanging the latest and greatest chipsets and processors for things like build quality. I, for one, do not believe that Lion is testing the waters for a full-on walled garden, one stop shopping for apps. When people suggest that it is, I can't help but feel that someone took their stupid pills that morning. It's an insane idea that Apple would take away so many ubiquitous Mac features and make iOS ones take over. The App Store is a simple way to get more applications in the hands of consumers. And lets face it, if it's anything like the iOS app store, they might as well call it "Steam for Mac by Apple", because we all know that your hardcore productivity and business apps won't make it on the store.

That said, I would definitely jump ship if OS 11 was anything like these horror stories describe. I think Windows is at the point where it's use about equal to OS X in terms of simplicity and security, and laptop manufacturers are actually starting to take a pages from Apple on the design front.

Blakeasd
Feb 6, 2011, 02:39 PM
Mac OS X will probably never be on "lock-down". Macs create IOS and Mac apps, so it has to have terminal and other non-app store apps for developers to use. Unless Steve Jobs wants Mac and IOS development to be done on Windows there is no reason to worry.

flipster
Feb 6, 2011, 07:22 PM
I was actually thinking like the same thing haha. I for some reason feel like, there going mobile. I can't really explain it, but I feel like they directed all of their attention towards there mobile line (ex. iphone, ipad). They need to start pushing out better graphics cards drivers, and working on Mac OSX a little more, from what it seems.

applemagic123
Feb 7, 2011, 12:04 AM
I see the progression,
10.7 app store optional
10.8 app store mandatory

Generally speaking I'm very unhappy with the focus and direction of apple is going these days.

Me too. If you notice, most of the software they have come out with AFTER leopard 10.5 has been glitchy, buggy, and/or doesn't use the full advantage of the hardware. A lot of pro users complain about the final cut suite. Something about carbon or something like that.

Apple is losing focus. They used to focus on creating smoothly operating software, but now all they care about are the mobile devices. Sorry but I think I will stick with leopard. I really do not like the whole "launchpad" concept, and I really do not like "mission control" concept either. Sorry, but I think those 2 things are SOOOOOOO stupid!! I like spaces and expose MUCH MUCH more. Mission control looks VERY unorganized and scattered. I don't think I will upgrade to lion ever. And if I do, it will definitely be something that I wait until after the hype is over and all the problems/issues are known.

Apple better get with the program here.

And as per the "mac app store" the concept is okay, but you HAVE to have snow leopard. That cuts out all the millions of people who are still on panther, tiger, or leopard, and definitely all the people with power pc processors. I hate that apple is doing the whole "forcing people to upgrade" crap. I will NOT play their game.

RubbishBBspeed
Feb 19, 2011, 05:32 PM
Apple has definitely entered the realm of Profit before Product. (many here will say but that's what business is all about) except I fear Apples current attitude and arrogance will come back with a sting in the tail. Perhaps the successor to Lion will be Black Widow as it kills it's mate. or in apples case kills it's customers and market with over priced under spec unreliable products.

I love my macbook, it works with relentless conviction no matter what abuse I throw at it, I've killed several PC's yet never a mac. OS X is a dream compared to the fiasco that have been various renditions of windows. And even as I write this there is no way I would go back to a windows PC. ack horrible.

With the eventual departing of Mr Jobs hopefully years away and not months I think we will see the demise of Apple. As direction of Apple vision is confused with balance sheet curves, quarterly reports and MBA buzz words as the company inevitably fills up with more and more white collar toffs of established hereditary destined for seven figure salaries, country club memberships and private jets on standby with the champagne on chill.

Certainly a club I and anyone else would love to join but perhaps not with a company like Apple, Apple used to stand for something a bit different but sadly that seems to have become lost in recent years. Not that writing this will change anything

j-a-x
Feb 24, 2011, 09:39 PM
people who see this as a terrible future are forgetting onething....
3rd party software. Apple only provides so much them selves (ilife, iwork... Various included apps).

3rd party software for both iphone and mac is created on..... You guessed it...... A mac.

If apple was to "close" the os in the way many people are fearing, that would be the end of the app store. Developers will not develop...... Correct that, developers can not make applications on a platform that does not provide certain low level access.

So think about it, how can apple create this "closed" system and still have a successful 3rd party appstore... They cant.

That is why there will always be a true unix os for us to use. The fun, user friendly (maybe even toy like) ios features will only be a layer ontop of osx.. Additional feature, not replacement features.

+1

JKK photography
Feb 24, 2011, 09:52 PM
So, to those who have/are using the developer release, do you still feel like it's a stepping stone to a closed OS, where Apple rules everything, where the App Store is the One Store to Rule Them All, and that all of the new ideas that have been taken from iOS and the iPad are ridiculous and fail miserably on the desktop OS that is Mac OS X?

Serious question, because everything that has been said so far (both sides of the issue) has been nothing more than speculation.

/V\acpower
Feb 25, 2011, 12:35 AM
The claim that OS X will be "locked down" like iOS is absolutely crazy. It wouldn't make any sense from a "usability" standpoint, in the sense that the Mac is more work oriented, the iPad/iPod/iPhone is not. It wouldn't make any sense from a developer community standpoint, for the reason expressed on the first page of the thread (Apps are developped on Macs), and it wouldn't make any sense from an economic standpoint, since such a move would in the end make them lose a lot of costumer.

I mean, there is absolutely no reason why Apple would make such a move.

BerGaur
Mar 10, 2012, 05:59 PM
The claim that OS X will be "locked down" like iOS is absolutely crazy. It wouldn't make any sense from a "usability" standpoint, in the sense that the Mac is more work oriented, the iPad/iPod/iPhone is not. It wouldn't make any sense from a developer community standpoint, for the reason expressed on the first page of the thread (Apps are developped on Macs), and it wouldn't make any sense from an economic standpoint, since such a move would in the end make them lose a lot of costumer.

I mean, there is absolutely no reason why Apple would make such a move.

Exactly, no speculation there. Here is the quote you are referring to:

Originally Posted by VPrime

That would put an end to any 3rd party support from developers.. With out 3rd party, there is no applications. With out applications there are no customers.

It just isn't logical to close off a system that has to be open for their whole app infrastructure to thrive.

So, even IF Apple "closes" OS X, which is a HUGE if, they WILL have a version for developers and that will make jailbreaking OS X a breeze to do. The fact that anyone wanting to provide a jail break will have the developer's version to use and take code from to make it possible and even work better than the jailbreaks for the iDevices.:apple::):):apple:
Now that this has been looked at under this light. How could "closing" OS X be financially beneficial for Apple. Did you nay-sayers ever consider the FACT that Apple gets input from users like you and I, and uses it for their decisions. There are people who like the iPhone just the way it is, I'm one of them, but there is NOBODY who wants Apple to "close" Mac.
:eek:So, what do you think?:rolleyes: They see %99.998 saying, "Don't close it.", and %0.002 saying, "Close it.", and think, "Hmmm, we will close it, just to screw with everyone...because we are the malicious ass wholes everyone thinks we are." :apple::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::apple::confused:
Consider this, they didn't become the #1 electronics company in the WORLD for no reason. Not to mention that, (I don't know if you noticed) but, Mac's are becoming ever MORE popular and MORE people are buying them. I know, because, not 5 years ago I HATED Apple and Owned a Windows (which started crashing less than a year after buying it) when I decided to give Mac a chance and now I will NEVER go back.
This is NOT speculation, everyone calling the shots in that company would have to go crazy or something to make such a bad decision. :D:D:D