Graphics Card Compatibility for Windows/Linux [Archive]

jujoje

Oct 23, 2010, 08:31 AM

Hi,

I'm currently looking to buy a new graphics card for my 2006 Mac Pro. I'm not going to be using OSX at all on the computer, only Windows/Linux, so I'm wondering what PC graphics cards I can use on if OSX drivers aren't an issue?

I've done a search and found a fair few answers, most of which have been more than a little contradictory and have got me somewhat confused. So any clear answer as to what's what on this would be much appreciated.

As a quick aside, just to explain why I'm doing this, in case anyone can think of a better idea, the situation is thus:

I work in VFX, primarily using Houdini. The main reasons to switch to Linux/Windows were OSX's lack of support for OpenGL 3 and 4 and the overpricing and unavailability of the new Ati 5870. Also Houdini is just that much snappier on Linux. So this mac pro is becoming a render/work box and I'm going to replace it for everyday stuff with a mac mini.

Thanks,

Julian

Hellhammer

Oct 23, 2010, 08:40 AM

Any GPU that uses PCIe interface should work. Not sure what GPUs are good for Linux though

cluthz

Oct 23, 2010, 08:53 AM

Any GPU that uses PCIe interface should work. Not sure what GPUs are good for Linux though

Over the years nVidia has had much better linux performance and support,
then again I've heard several reports that ATI/AMD is really shaping up these days with drivers for linux.

I'd go with nvidia anyways, since they have always had the best linux support.

jujoje

Oct 23, 2010, 08:53 AM

That's really good to hear :)

Just to make doubley sure, the two main things I was worrying about were whether the I have the appropriate power connectors in the mac power the card and what would happen if I got an nvidia card - the whole efi 32/64 only applies to booting in osx I assume?.

I just want to check that it'll all be good before I rush out and buy an expensive shiny new card...

Oh and on the linux front my Ati 4870 is currently doing a stellar job, although I suspect nvidia would be better.

Hellhammer

Oct 23, 2010, 08:57 AM

I have the appropriate power connectors in the mac power the card

What is your current GPU? IIRC Mac Pro has only two power connectors so if those are already in use, then you need to get some splitters or take power from SuperDrive etc. Someone else should be able to help you with this.

jujoje

Oct 23, 2010, 09:56 AM

Hellhammer

Oct 23, 2010, 10:08 AM

I've currently got an ati 4870, which is using one power connector. I think I'd probably go with an nvidia cards and remove the ati one. So that shouldn't be an issue. Looks like I should be relatively set :)

Thanks for you help.

Ahh, so you would get rid of the ATI 4870 and only have the PC card in it? In that case, you will be fine because no current GPU uses more than 2x8pin, I think. You will need some power adapters but those won't cost much.

What GPU are you getting? Or what is your budget?

cluthz

Oct 23, 2010, 11:03 AM

The 4870 is still a very fast GPU, unless you'll get a GTX480 you won't upgrade much

jujoje

Oct 23, 2010, 11:19 AM

Looks like I'm out of luck (I was vaguely suspicious that there was reason I hadn't done this before): the monitor I'd be hooking it up to is a 24" Apple Cinema Display which uses a mini display port. I might be wrong, but I don't think that there's any way I can connect the mini display port from the monitor into the hdmi/dvi port on the video card?

In terms of games and general performance, I'm still more than happy with the 4870, but with the new release of Houdini pretty much requires a card with 1GB of memory on the card. Aside from plain drawing speed a lot of programmes (particularly Mari and gpu based renderers such as Octane), are all unfortunately using CUDA and thus simply don't work on Ati cards. Which is really frustrating. Oh and the card that I would have been looking at is the 470GTX, since it seems to offer decent price/performance.

Anyways, this is kinda a moot point if I'm correct on the hdmi/dvi -> mini display port connection. Had a look on google and apples site but the adaptors appear to be from mini display port to hdmi/dvi not the other way around. Have a missed something?

Transporteur

Oct 23, 2010, 11:26 AM

I've currently got an ati 4870, which is using one power connector.

Just BTW, the 4870 uses two power connectors.

I might be wrong, but I don't think that there's any way I can connect the mini display port from the monitor into the hdmi/dvi port on the video card?

Check out the Atlona (http://www.atlona.com/Atlona-DVI-to-Mini-DisplayPort-Converter-p-17859.html) converter.

Hellhammer

Oct 23, 2010, 11:34 AM

There is GTX 470 with DisplayPort

http://cgi.ebay.com/Palit-nVidia-GeForce-GTX470-1280MB-DDR5-/190459794785?pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item2c5849d561#ht_7588wt_778 (sorry, couldn't find it from anywhere else but eBay)

Several GTX 460s with DP as well

Getting a GPU with DP will be cheaper than paying 200$ on the Atlona adapter

jujoje

Oct 23, 2010, 12:04 PM

Just BTW, the 4870 uses two power connectors.

I checked a few minutes before you posted that and, yup, two six pin power connectors.

There is GTX 470 with DisplayPort

The GTX 470 has a display port not a mini-display port. I thought it would be relatively easy to get an adaptor that goes from one to the other (since I think it's just a smaller connector at the end, nothing else), but there doesn't seem to be any straightforward way.

The Atlona adaptor seems to be the main solution, but it's really expensive here in the uk ($280+).

Hellhammer

Oct 23, 2010, 12:07 PM

The GTX 470 has a display port not a mini-display port. I thought it would be relatively easy to get an adaptor that goes from one to the other (since I think it's just a smaller connector at the end, nothing else), but there doesn't seem to be any straightforward way.

Mini DisplayPort to DisplayPort (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10246&cs_id=1024606&p_id=6006&seq=1&format=2) cable costs a whopping 4 bucks.

jujoje

Oct 23, 2010, 01:55 PM

My google skills are full of fail today: spent a fair while going around in circles looking at entirely the wrong cables. Thanks for the link.

As Apple decided to build the cable into the the monitor I think it's something like this (http://ukhdmi.com/cablesson-mini-displayport-female-to-displayport-male-adapter_QQ102779) that I'll need (sadly not 4 bucks, but not too bad). Just in case someone comes across this thread a bit later :).

Looks like my search for a decent graphics cards at a reasonable price are at an end (I hope): the 470 GTX is.

Thank you all for all your help.

incubator01

Oct 23, 2010, 02:42 PM

I too am thinking about getting the PC version of the ATI HD 5870 to replace my Mac version of the ATI HD 4870 since the apple store keeps saying its unavailable.

I have no problem with running windows only since I still use mac on my macbook pro at work and am using windows lately mostly for games :p

However Since I read that 8-pin power connectors are needed, I was wondering if this is really required?
Can't I just plug the 6-pin power connectoprs that are currently connected to my ati hd 4870 into the pc version of the hd 5870?

and if not, which specific part connector type) do I need? I have no idea which part nr it has nor do I know which kind of store would have this since its not a common thing, right?

As for my current specs: I have the mac pro 2009 BTO with ati hd 4870, and I feel duped by apple because the 5870 is out for a year now and I can't have it yet and now AMD is about to release the 6 series :(

Mackilroy

Oct 23, 2010, 03:57 PM

incubator01

Oct 23, 2010, 04:00 PM

Thanks, that's good to hear :)

Hellhammer

Oct 23, 2010, 04:42 PM

It's a non-issue - buy the 5870, plug it in, and it'll work. 8-pin connectors are not required.

Just in case you're doubting me, I ran a 4890 in my Mac Pro that 'required' one 8-pin and one 6-pin and I always used two 6-pin connectors. Didn't have an issue.

That is correct. PCIe slot can provide 75W and 6-pin PCIe power is designed to provide 75W so that would be 75W (PCIe slot) + 2x75W (2x6-pin power) and that equals to 225W. ATI 5870 has TDP of 188W so 6-pin power adapter are more than enough to fulfill the power needs of 5870.

Just wanted to backup your statement with the technical point of view ;)

incubator01

Oct 25, 2010, 05:56 AM

Interesting :)

Will this also be enough for the 5970?

Hellhammer

Oct 25, 2010, 09:05 AM

Interesting :)

Will this also be enough for the 5970?

ATI 5970 has TDP of 294W. However, according to this (http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html#pciexpress), 6-pin PCIe power cables can provide more than 75W.

The PCI Express specification is, unfortunately, not a free, public specification. So most people have never seen it. Including me. ATX specification: freely available to all. PCI Express specification: expensive so hardly anyone has seen it. ATX: good. PCI Express: bad. It's a shame when a widely used standard isn't freely available to the public. Nonetheless, information leaks out from the specification and the 6 pin PCI Express power cable is actually rated at an extremely conservative 75 watts. I have no idea why the wattage is rated so low because the specifications from Molex clearly allow substantially more power. Part of the reason may be that pin 2 (listed above as a 12 volt line) may be listed as not connected in the specification. I've never seen a 6 pin PCI Express power cable with pin 2 not connected. They've all had a 12 volt line connected to pin 2. I've also seen claims that there may be unimplemented sense lines in the specification. Welcome to the uncertainty which happens when you don't have freely available specifications. Even with only two 12 volt lines the standard implementation of PCI Express power cables use large enough gauge wire and a good enough connector to provide much more than the three amps per wire required to provide 75 watts. Nonetheless, the 6 pin PCI Express power cable officially provides only 75 watts. In all likelihood, however, real implementations of this power cable can provide far more than 75 watts.

They would need to provide 109.5W each, hard to say can they do that. It would work since the TDP is the theoretical maximum power consumption but it might not be able to run at full speed. If you draw the power from SuperDrive, then it should work. No idea how you do that though

incubator01

Oct 25, 2010, 09:09 AM

Hmm, ok, then I'll play safe and get the 5870 :)

incubator01

Oct 25, 2010, 01:47 PM

Hellhammer

Oct 25, 2010, 01:51 PM

Apparently this seems to be a problem.
I contacted all the stores in belgium I know and looked even at XFX's site in UK but all models of the HD 5870 1Gb are out of stock or listed as discontinued.

The 2 Gb model is a bit more readily available, "requires" 1x6 and 1x8pin and as you described should work, however in case I might want to flash it, might not work.

Plus I can't take XFX's model since it has 6 DisplayPorts and I only have DVI-I :s

Is eBay (http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?rt=nc&LH_PrefLoc=1&_nkw=ati%205870&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m283) an option? Looks like 58xx is being replaced by 68xx and 69xx so stores are no longer getting them. BTW, 2GB version of ATI 5870 has the same TDP, I don't know why it requires 8-pin but you can connect 6-pin to 8-pin connector and it should work. Dunno if the 2GB version is harder to flash but the power won't be an issue

incubator01

Oct 25, 2010, 02:05 PM

Not really, had bad experience with it.

The only card that is still not out of stock is this:
Sapphire ATI 5870 1GB DDR5 (11161-10-50R)
There is a rom for it but the fan is quite noisy apparently

nanofrog

Oct 25, 2010, 03:48 PM

ATI 5970 has TDP of 294W. However, according to this (http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html#pciexpress), 6-pin PCIe power cables can provide more than 75W.
It's possible for the cable itself to actually handle more than the 75W rating, but it's dependent on the +12V rails it's getting power from (total load on that rail), if there's sufficient power. In the case of the MP, the PCB traces are important as well, as they're used to move power from the PSU connector to the graphics card connector (mini 6 pin connectors on the logic board/backplane board <one that has the actual PCIe slots on it>).

So it's not a good idea to expect or attempt to draw more than 75W over those cables in a MP (Hot Air Leveled Solder over the traces will melt, causing a short; this has happend according to at least one post on MR IIRC).

Fortunately, there is an inexpensive solution if needed in the form of a 5.25" Graphics card PSU (450W), here (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817101044&Tpk=5.25%22%20power%20supply). For only $20USD, it's not a bad solution, and is cleaner than running a normal computer PSU outside of the system, and having to jump the green and black wires together in order to get it to turn on (but this is still workable, if the user is willing).

Transporteur

Oct 25, 2010, 03:57 PM

Fortunately, there is an inexpensive solution if needed in the form of a 5.25" Graphics card PSU (450W), here (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817101044&Tpk=5.25%22%20power%20supply). For only $20USD, it's not a bad solution, and is cleaner than running a normal computer PSU outside of the system, and having to jump the green and black wires together in order to get it to turn on (but this is still workable, if the user is willing).

The only problem I see with these kits is the thickness of the PCIe cables.
They seem to be really thick and the hole between PCIe section and ODD bay isn't really big. I recon that one cable will fit, but I wouldn't be so sure about two of them.

nanofrog

Oct 25, 2010, 04:01 PM

The only problem I see with these kits is the thickness of the PCIe cables.
They seem to be really thick and the hole between PCIe section and ODD bay isn't really big. I recon that one cable will fit, but I wouldn't be so sure about two of them.
I'm not sure if it's a problem or not (IIRC there's a user or two that's used one of these, and not indicated a problem, but the actual system would matter I expect), but if a user wants to do this, I'd also suspect they'd be willing to file/drill/dremel out some space from the ODD carrier/mount if needed.

It's cleaner than a standard system PSU anyway, as those cables have to be routed inside the system somehow (either through a PCI bracket or through/under the removable side panel).

Transporteur

Oct 25, 2010, 04:09 PM

It's cleaner than a standard system PSU anyway, as those cables have to be routed inside the system somehow (either through a PCI bracket or through/under the removable side panel).

Can't argue with that. :D

But the hole in the '09/'10 systems really is tiny, enough for a bunch of SATA cables but that's pretty much it.

I don't say that it's not possible, I doubt it works without some adjustments, though.
Whoever has this setup running, me want pictures! :p

nanofrog

Oct 25, 2010, 06:10 PM

But the hole in the '09/'10 systems really is tiny, enough for a bunch of SATA cables but that's pretty much it.

I don't say that it's not possible, I doubt it works without some adjustments, though.
I don't doubt the opening is a bit small, as it's not intended for cable routing. So I expect that modifications would be necessary. But better to mod the ODD carrier than the side panel or back of the case IMO (the ODD carrier can be replaced easily if necessary, and swapped out, say in the event of selling the system off once it's been out-grown). ;)

Hellhammer

Oct 26, 2010, 12:04 PM

Fortunately, there is an inexpensive solution if needed in the form of a 5.25" Graphics card PSU (450W), here (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817101044&Tpk=5.25%22%20power%20supply). For only $20USD, it's not a bad solution, and is cleaner than running a normal computer PSU outside of the system, and having to jump the green and black wires together in order to get it to turn on (but this is still workable, if the user is willing).

Thanks for the link, never heard of those :p

But the external PSU is so sexy, isn't it? :D

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTORt0gf71QCLiyqmeVDOkqisC_z6oQUmVGxBmuCuHqSctanhk&t=1&usg=__Y4VcmoRKC2a8FUzQa0VwmQbjvoo=

nanofrog

Oct 26, 2010, 01:36 PM

But the external PSU is so sexy, isn't it? :D

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTORt0gf71QCLiyqmeVDOkqisC_z6oQUmVGxBmuCuHqSctanhk&t=1&usg=__Y4VcmoRKC2a8FUzQa0VwmQbjvoo=
Absolutely gorgous.... in a rats nest kind of way. :D :p

incubator01

Oct 26, 2010, 10:42 PM

The only problem I see with these kits is the thickness of the PCIe cables.
They seem to be really thick and the hole between PCIe section and ODD bay isn't really big. I recon that one cable will fit, but I wouldn't be so sure about two of them.

If i would get one of these and insert it in my SATA drive,
How do i connect it then to the PSU? With the existing 6-pin cables?
And ifcso with which cables can i connect the grapchics card then?

Is it possible then to connect both my existing ati 4870 for osx and a ati 5970 for windows using this 5.25" PSU ?

nanofrog

Oct 26, 2010, 11:18 PM

If i would get one of these and insert it in my SATA drive,
How do i connect it then to the PSU? With the existing 6-pin cables?
And ifcso with which cables can i connect the grapchics card then?

Is it possible then to connect both my existing ati 4870 for osx and a ati 5970 for windows using this 5.25" PSU ?
The device I linked is a separate PSU for the graphics card. It has a total of 4x PEG cables (2x 6 pin, and 2x 6+2 pin cables) that come out of the unit that connect directly to the graphics card/s it will be used for.

It's rated for 450W, so keep that in mind (cards can get up to 75W from the PCIe slot itself). But don't exceed the power limit.

You also still have the 2x mini 6 pin connectors on the logic board you can use to help power graphics cards via the cables you already have connected there (I'd go ahead and use these for the 4870, which will keep the load smaller for the add-on unit, and run the 5970 off of that).

Hope this clears things up.

incubator01

Oct 27, 2010, 04:02 AM

The device I linked is a separate PSU for the graphics card. It has a total of 4x PEG cables (2x 6 pin, and 2x 6+2 pin cables) that come out of the unit that connect directly to the graphics card/s it will be used for.

It's rated for 450W, so keep that in mind (cards can get up to 75W from the PCIe slot itself). But don't exceed the power limit.

You also still have the 2x mini 6 pin connectors on the logic board you can use to help power graphics cards via the cables you already have connected there (I'd go ahead and use these for the 4870, which will keep the load smaller for the add-on unit, and run the 5970 off of that).

Hope this clears things up.

Yes it does :)
However I am still puzzled as how to install this thing.
Do I have to screw it in an empty hard drive bay or plug it somewhere in a PCI-E slot,... ?
And how do I feed it power, does it have its own power cable like a standard PSU or does it get power from one of those pin connectors?
I couldn't figure that out from the screenshots of the device

nanofrog

Oct 27, 2010, 12:10 PM

Yes it does :)
However I am still puzzled as how to install this thing.
Do I have to screw it in an empty hard drive bay or plug it somewhere in a PCI-E slot,... ?
And how do I feed it power, does it have its own power cable like a standard PSU or does it get power from one of those pin connectors?
I couldn't figure that out from the screenshots of the device
You'd install the unit in the empty optical bay (made specifically for that, so it's a perfect fit). You will have to pull off a PCI bracket (slot cover) in the rear in order to route the power cable to the unit (say slot 4 for example). You could also run it out of the side panel if you can't run it out of a slot (not as clean looking, and may require a bit of modding the side panel or main part of the case to make a notch/hole to route it through).

But this should clear things up a bit. ;)

incubator01

Oct 27, 2010, 12:16 PM

hmm, so that leaves a permanent hole in the back for the power cable to go through :s

I'll have to think about that then, besides, it apears newegg doesn't ship to EU and I'm unable to find similar devices here

berkut

Oct 28, 2010, 03:51 PM

In terms of games and general performance, I'm still more than happy with the 4870, but with the new release of Houdini pretty much requires a card with 1GB of memory on the card. Aside from plain drawing speed a lot of programmes (particularly Mari and gpu based renderers such as Octane), are all unfortunately using CUDA and thus simply don't work on Ati cards. Which is really frustrating. Oh and the card that I would have been looking at is the 470GTX, since it seems to offer decent price/performance.

Mari doesn't need CUDU - it will be working on ATI cards in a future version.
It *does* need OpenGL 3.0 however, which Apple still doesn't fully support.

Regarding Linux drivers, NVIDIA's drivers are much better than ATI's (although ATI release the specs so decent open source ones are being created).
The only issue with them is that their TwinView system for multiple monitors is a bit crap with older kernels - if you're using something like CentOS, you'll have a few issues with regards to that. More modern systems, Fedora 12+, Ubuntu 10.04+ work nicely with TwinView.

jujoje

Nov 4, 2010, 04:57 PM

Hey all,

I eventually went with the 470 GTX.

I installed it fine, but when I turn the computer on, all I get is a white screen. This is the same if I use the dvi or display port connection So it appears to be working, kinda. Anyone have any idea? Kinda freaked out at having spent so much money on something that doesn't work...

jujoje

Nov 4, 2010, 05:01 PM

Mari doesn't need CUDU - it will be working on ATI cards in a future version.
It *does* need OpenGL 3.0 however, which Apple still doesn't fully support.

Regarding Linux drivers, NVIDIA's drivers are much better than ATI's (although ATI release the specs so decent open source ones are being created).
The only issue with them is that their TwinView system for multiple monitors is a bit crap with older kernels - if you're using something like CentOS, you'll have a few issues with regards to that. More modern systems, Fedora 12+, Ubuntu 10.04+ work nicely with TwinView.

That's good to know about mari supporting ati in future versions. I've been having a look at the beta of Mari for windows at work and it looks really nice. It does really want a card with at least 1GB of ram though.

I've currently got ubuntu 10.04 (well when I actually had a working computer), and it display port speed in houdini (which uses OGL 3) compared to in OSX is impressive, even on my old Ati card.

berkut

Nov 5, 2010, 02:40 PM

That's good to know about mari supporting ati in future versions. I've been having a look at the beta of Mari for windows at work and it looks really nice. It does really want a card with at least 1GB of ram though.

I've currently got ubuntu 10.04 (well when I actually had a working computer), and it display port speed in houdini (which uses OGL 3) compared to in OSX is impressive, even on my old Ati card.

It *needs* more than 512 MB - it will possibly run with a 768 MB card depending on what you're doing, but 1GB is safest. Yeah, most of the people who want Mari in OS X are indies in small companies who balk at the thought of using Linux - all the big houses are already running Linux in some form or another, so it fits right in there.

OS X is really starting to lag in the graphics department these days, it's already holding back some of the stereoscopic playback in Nuke on OS X.