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thronborg
Nov 2, 2010, 03:57 PM
Steve Jobs talk about Lion scared me. His staff and the young guys have really messed it up. This start to look like a kindergarten.

This is nothing else like playing around with people that seriously work with their computers. If you want to play do it with iPad, or a new iKid.

OSX10.6 and now iPhoto11 have failed and to put a lot of funny interface in Lion will not help.

Stop fore a while and think it over please.

thronborg



spinnerlys
Nov 2, 2010, 04:03 PM
www.apple.com/feedback

Btw, we only saw a tenth of what Mac OS X Lion is, maybe even less.

Btw, how has Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard failed?

thronborg
Nov 2, 2010, 04:21 PM
Sorry i dont made myself clear. Not in the interface, its likely as it always have been.

Is there any other OS upgrades that make so many people frustrated than OSX10.6. My point is that OSX was released to early. How many thousand users has not "@PÖ over 10.6 because their printers and other things stop working, and OSX10.6 still have this problem, I know its always some other company companies problem, Canon, HP etc. But the fact is that everything start to go wrong with OSX10.6 in my opinion.

Thronborg

HLdan
Nov 2, 2010, 04:47 PM
Unfortunately for you 10.6 is running beautifully so your fail comment is moot at this point regardless of any issues upon it's first release. You're saying Stop Lion? Let Mac be a Mac? And how would Lion stop this? You haven't even seen 1/10th of what it's going to do. If you don't like the way Lion is based on what you've seen so far then no worries, stay on Snow Leopard, or maybe Leopard since you think SL is such a failure. I for one am looking forward to Lion and Mac OS X does need changes to stay far ahead of Windows. Too many people (PC Fans) say Windows 7 is on par with SL. I disagree, SL is far better but Apple needs to take it to the next level of computing.

rdowns
Nov 2, 2010, 04:53 PM
Oh look, another in a long line of overreactions to seeing a few eye candy features for an OS due out in 8-9 months. :rolleyes:

iThinkergoiMac
Nov 2, 2010, 04:55 PM
Is there any other OS upgrades that make so many people frustrated than OSX10.6.

You're not looking at the issue very clearly. In raw numbers, more people were frustrated with 10.6 than were frustrated with any other previous release of OS X. However, more people were using Macs and upgraded to 10.6 than were at any time in history before. So, you're right, more people were frustrated with 10.6 than any other release of OS X. The percentage of people having problems, though, was about the same as with 10.5.

10.6 has given me absolutely zero issues, BTW.

What you want is not to let Mac be a Mac. What you want is to keep Mac as what you think a Mac is. Mac is whatever Apple makes it. They made it, they have the right to change it as they see fit. Their history is full of controversial decisions that often (though not always) proved right in the end.

The end result is that you don't have to choose to upgrade to Lion.

roadbloc
Nov 2, 2010, 04:59 PM
I did have problems with my upgrade to Snow Leopard. Fortunately, a clean install instead of an upgrade solved this.

Personally I'm looking forward to Lion.

Mal
Nov 2, 2010, 05:38 PM
Steve Jobs talk about Lion scared me. His staff and the young guys have really messed it up. This start to look like a kindergarten.

Seriously? This post is what looks like a kindergarten.

Sorry, but as other people have now pointed out, this seems like a major overreaction and misinterpretation of the small sneak peak we got, plus a regurgitation of many other uninformed bloggers and forum posters here and many other places who didn't bother thinking it through before they posted either.

Take a second and think about it.

jW

BetaHal
Nov 4, 2010, 12:03 AM
Seriously? This post is what looks like a kindergarten.

this seems like a major overreaction and misinterpretation of the small sneak peak we got, plus a regurgitation of many other uninformed bloggers and forum posters here and many other places who didn't bother thinking it through before they posted either.



Yeah, it looks like many people seem to dislike the general direction that Apple is aiming at with Lion...

But hey, Mal, don't worry!
Just ignore the posts if you don't like them! :D

http://orpheus.ucsd.edu/speccoll/dspolitic/pm/10429cs.jpg

Concorde Rules
Nov 4, 2010, 05:46 AM
10.6 did not fail.

I even booted my MP2009 from day one in 64-bit mode and that worked perfectly too.

Four Macs. Zero Problems.

maflynn
Nov 4, 2010, 06:01 AM
OSX10.6 and now iPhoto11 have failed and to put a lot of funny interface in Lion will not help.

Please provide supporting information on why you think 10.6 has failed. While I'll not argue the case about iPhoto 11, that is more attributed to bugs, then a failed design AFAIK.

I'm running 10.6 and had little problems, in fact I've been quite successful with it on a mac mini, MBP and two hackintoshs. That doesn't sound like its failed.

Mal
Nov 4, 2010, 12:39 PM
Yeah, it looks like many people seem to dislike the general direction that Apple is aiming at with Lion...

But hey, Mal, don't worry!
Just ignore the posts if you don't like them! :D

Wow, you really don't get it. The people that don't like something are the ones that are reading the bogus (made-up) information about where Apple is "aiming" with Lion.

It's all made up. Apple has shown no indications of locking down OS X. They have shown no indication of any of the doomsday predictions out there.

Oh yeah, and you've now invoked Godwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law). This thread can die now.

jW

SandboxGeneral
Nov 4, 2010, 12:43 PM
It's too bad that you seem to have problems with 10.6, but I am not. 10.6.4 on both of my Mac's runs so nice and so smooth that's it's simply amazing. I never have problems.

aimbdd
Nov 4, 2010, 01:21 PM
I had no problems either. I installed a week after release. Two macs, 6 different printers, 4 different cameras.

maflynn
Nov 5, 2010, 05:57 AM
I'm pretty sure you'll be able to, like you could go from tiger to SL.

thronborg
Nov 7, 2010, 11:40 AM
In my view Apple have absolutely changed their direction. Just look at iPhoto, a bad written app, and many of the old features are just gone. And many people got their pictures deleted, or library messed up. And the look, i dont want to talk about it.

Apple says "Incredible NEW iLife11", include iWeb and iDVD with no upgrade at all, the same old stuff. iLife consist of 5 apps and if 2 of them are the old one, how can they call it "Incredible NEW iLife11" This is not true!

This is not the way to operate serious and professional in my world.

Remember. Its the same company that makes Lion.

I just dont se how you cant be worried . Is it not obvious that Apple think after the success with iPad and iPhone they just are so sure that this is the way a computer should operate to.

Downgrade man 2.

Mackilroy
Nov 7, 2010, 01:20 PM
They've also released an update for iPhoto to fix that problem. It's not as if they want people's photos to be deleted. As far as features are gone, what features? Please provide evidence instead of opinion.

It is completely true. Who says they have to update all of their apps at the same time? While that would be nice if they did, that doesn't mean they can't issue new apps while keeping the old ones intact to make a complete disc.

You can still use your Mac the way you did before – these are options to use, not the only way. So nope, it's not obvious at all, unless you're easily frightened by FUD.

thronborg
Nov 7, 2010, 07:35 PM
Mackilroy
They've also released an update for iPhoto to fix that problem. It's not as if they want people's photos to be deleted.

Answer
Aha... Of course not. But to release a public version that deletes the customers files is new. No matter if they release a fix. THIS IS NOT ALLOWED 2010,NO WAY!.

Mackilroy
As far as features are gone, what features? Please provide evidence instead of opinion.

Answer
It obviously that you have not seen iPhoto11. The biggest, (my view) is the lack of sending a batch of photos, neither can you send them in smaller files than original, and not without the silly book design. Read more at:
http://forum.hardmac.com/index.php?showtopic=9147

Mackilroy
It is completely true. Who says they have to update all of their apps at the same time? While that would be nice if they did, that doesn't mean they can't issue new apps while keeping the old ones intact to make a complete disc.

Answer
If Apple sell iLife11, a package including 4 apps. and release the package as "Incredible NEW iLife11". Then 99.9% of the user just think that. If they sell them as stand alone apps its ok, but Apple dont. You cant buy just iPhoto. Its a odd view you have, i wonder in what business you are?

Mackilroy
You can still use your Mac the way you did before – these are options to use, not the only way. So nope, it's not obvious at all, unless you're easily frightened by FUD.

Answer
Yes you are right, all users have a lot of choices today. Regarding apps, instead of iPhoto you can use Picasa, Shobox, Aperture, Lightroom, Microsoft Expression etc. But the OS we are dependent of and cant choose. And the Apps we buyed from them must be trusted.

Downgrade man 2.

admanimal
Nov 7, 2010, 08:03 PM
If Apple sell iLife11, a package including 4 apps. and release the package as "Incredible NEW iLife11". Then 99.9% of the user just think that. If they sell them as stand alone apps its ok, but Apple dont. You cant buy just iPhoto. Its a odd view you have, i wonder in what business you are?



If only Apple could come up with some online system where we could just buy and install one app at a time, from some sort of "store" on our Macs. It could look something like this:

http://images.apple.com/mac/app-store/images/appstore_overview20101020.jpg

But we should definitely stop them from releasing Lion, because surely it would never have a great new feature like this!

tjb1
Nov 9, 2010, 12:19 AM
Mackilroy
They've also released an update for iPhoto to fix that problem. It's not as if they want people's photos to be deleted.

Answer
Aha... Of course not. But to release a public version that deletes the customers files is new. No matter if they release a fix. THIS IS NOT ALLOWED 2010,NO WAY!.

Mackilroy
As far as features are gone, what features? Please provide evidence instead of opinion.

Answer
It obviously that you have not seen iPhoto11. The biggest, (my view) is the lack of sending a batch of photos, neither can you send them in smaller files than original, and not without the silly book design. Read more at:
http://forum.hardmac.com/index.php?showtopic=9147

Mackilroy
It is completely true. Who says they have to update all of their apps at the same time? While that would be nice if they did, that doesn't mean they can't issue new apps while keeping the old ones intact to make a complete disc.

Answer
If Apple sell iLife11, a package including 4 apps. and release the package as "Incredible NEW iLife11". Then 99.9% of the user just think that. If they sell them as stand alone apps its ok, but Apple dont. You cant buy just iPhoto. Its a odd view you have, i wonder in what business you are?

Mackilroy
You can still use your Mac the way you did before – these are options to use, not the only way. So nope, it's not obvious at all, unless you're easily frightened by FUD.

Answer
Yes you are right, all users have a lot of choices today. Regarding apps, instead of iPhoto you can use Picasa, Shobox, Aperture, Lightroom, Microsoft Expression etc. But the OS we are dependent of and cant choose. And the Apps we buyed from them must be trusted.

Downgrade man 2.

If you followed everything else as much as you follow the garbage you read about Lion you would see they are releasing an App Store for the Macs...as admanimal pointed out you can buy every piece of iLife individually. Personally I think you should have paid more attention to your english/grammar teacher, just my opinion.

thronborg
Nov 9, 2010, 11:34 PM
I dont listen to garbage talk, i only talk from my own experience, and refer to the source.

Thoose of you that have looked at Steve Jobs introduction to iLife 11 where he also told a little of Lions future and how it will looks. I dont think Steve talk garbage.

About my grammar. I am sorry, i am 53 years old, live in Sweden. We started to learn english in 5 class and i am not use to speak or write english. I hope you understand and respect also non US members.

Best regards

Sdashiki
Nov 10, 2010, 09:33 AM
I dont listen to garbage talk, i only talk from my own experience, and refer to the source.

Thoose of you that have looked at Steve Jobs introduction to iLife 11 where he also told a little of Lions future and how it will looks. I dont think Steve talk garbage.

About my grammar. I am sorry, i am 53 years old, live in Sweden. We started to learn english in 5 class and i am not use to speak or write english. I hope you understand and respect also non US members.

Best regards

the ONLY complaint you see to have is iLife 11 and iPhoto.

I fail to see how thats your deal breaker this early in the game.

Wicked1
Nov 10, 2010, 11:01 AM
I am always open to new ideas especially software that runs better and faster, however the one issue that will concern me is what Apple is looking to do with the iPhone next.

They want to track what you do and where you go so they say it is for building a better user experience, but I think it is more an invasion of privacy, but we will see where iOS and the iPhone goes next.

If you do not like Lion, simply stay with OSX 10.5 or 10.6, I am using a uMB from Mid 2009 with 10.5 and it runs perfectly no issues, except I may need a new battery soon but that is it.

Animacnut
Nov 11, 2010, 06:56 PM
I for one am looking forward to Lion and have found Apples innovations thus far in Both Mac OS (X) and iOS very cutting edge and creative.

Now mind you I am not a Trekkie, but if you look carefully as to what Apple is doing, they steering the industry with many of it's innovations, and some of them seem to be straight out of Star Trek.

I mean honestly, how much closer can you get to a Star Trek style tricorder than an iPhone, iPod or iPad? If you don't believe me, go watch How William Shatner Changed The World (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_william_shatner_changed_the_world).

Dumbing down to kindergarten level, I think not. Allowing people to get to and complete what they need to faster and more efficiently. You Bet! All that information at your fingertips, I mean come on, granted it is for iOS, but how is having the ability to monitor the status of your car (points to recent GM commercials) or home security system (ADT) on your iPhone a bad or kindergarten type of thing?

Not to mention all the distribution and packaging costs for apps, that are saved via the iOS App Store and can also be saved once the Mac App store goes live.

As for many of the problems that occurred when people upgraded to 10.6. From what I know the vast majority were with non-apple software and hardware. It is not Apple's responsibility to ensure 3rd party products work with their latest software release, but instead to provide those third parties with the tools to bring their own products up to snuff so they can run with out problems. Now if it is an Apple program/hardware that is not compatible, then yes, Apple needs to put their nose to the grind stone and fix it. But if it is say Adobe's program (there were a lot of complaints of problems with adobe product upon the release of SL if I remember correctly), then Adobe needs to get off their rears and fix it, not Apple (and as for me, forcing me to buy an upgrade to fix the problem is not an acceptable fix, I am still irked that they did not patch Version Cue for CS4 to make it 64 bit).

I have been told that the main reason Microsoft has some many problems with many of their Windows releases is that they actually try to support old hardware and software on their own, not without the help of the manufacturer, though please do not quote me on this.

RT2020
Nov 12, 2010, 11:34 AM
The future of Apple products are dumbed-down idiot devices for passive users.
I don't think Steve Jobs understands that a lot of the people who use Macs are creative professionals who can handle the complexity and power of a proper operating system.

I'm not purchasing anything Apple until I see any evidence that I'm wrong on this.

I definitely will NOT upgrade to Lion, even if its free. It's not even worth the half our upgrade time.

Seriously apple? How many years did you have to work on this?

dscuber9000
Nov 12, 2010, 11:41 AM
The future of Apple products are dumbed-down idiot devices for passive users.
I don't think Steve Jobs understands that a lot of the people who use Macs are creative professionals who can handle the complexity and power of a proper operating system.

I'm not purchasing anything Apple until I see any evidence that I'm wrong on this.

I definitely will NOT upgrade to Lion, even if its free. It's not even worth the half our upgrade time.

Seriously apple? How many years did you have to work on this?

Isn't that why they have Final Cut Studio, Logic Studio, etc? From what I saw from Lion, they didn't take away any functionality, they just made everything easier to do. Personally, I can't wait for LaunchPad because opening Finder and scrolling through a list of Applications is a mess. Quite honestly, if Steve didn't mention iOS and LaunchPad didn't look like iOS, I don't think anyone would be complaining. The new Expose (Mission Control I think it is called?) also looks much more improved. No lost functionality. If anything, we gained a standard full-screen mode that I'll definitely be using.

I think people are over-reacting.

Lordedmond
Nov 12, 2010, 12:04 PM
a different tack

not Apple/mac but

its a good job we did not have the tinternet when we changed from DOS to windows 3 , we that could use DOS were appalled .

we have to progress ,its the way of things

dryjoy
Nov 12, 2010, 12:35 PM
I just can't understand why people get so worked up about something like this. Noone has any real idea what features may be added to or taken away from Lion before release, and no idea what Lion will actually be like to use in the real world.

If you hate it after it comes out and you've tried it, then fair enough - bitch and moan all you like, but it seems such a waste of time and so negative to get all worked up about something that you currently have no real idea about what it will be like to use.

RELOAD911
Nov 12, 2010, 01:00 PM
Mission Control actually makes me miss good old pre-SnowLeopard Expose even more. Uh, I think I'm feeling too nostalgic, gonna go get my fix of Dune 2.

Animacnut
Nov 12, 2010, 05:10 PM
Isn't that why they have Final Cut Studio, Logic Studio, etc? From what I saw from Lion, they didn't take away any functionality, they just made everything easier to do. Personally, I can't wait for LaunchPad because opening Finder and scrolling through a list of Applications is a mess. Quite honestly, if Steve didn't mention iOS and LaunchPad didn't look like iOS, I don't think anyone would be complaining. The new Expose (Mission Control I think it is called?) also looks much more improved. No lost functionality. If anything, we gained a standard full-screen mode that I'll definitely be using.

I think people are over-reacting.

I second this, yes macs are and very much have been the realm of creative professionals. However, how is Apple supposed to grow as a company if they only cater to one, notably small, portion of the market. What makes a mac so great, Lion or not, is that out of the box you have a machine that, for all intensive purposeless, can do practically anything you want, with few if any expensive upgrades.

While this may not be a big deal for the owner of a Mac Pro, the average user is not going to own a Mac Pro. The will own a iMac, Mac Mini, MacBook Air, MacBook or MacBook Pro; all of which are not easily upgradeable. In doing this the useful life of the Mac for the average user is greatly lengthened, thus making the large purchase price easier to swallow.

George Knighton
Nov 14, 2010, 08:01 AM
Steve Jobs talk about Lion scared me. His staff and the young guys have really messed it up. This start to look like a kindergarten.

This is nothing else like playing around with people that seriously work with their computers. If you want to play do it with iPad, or a new iKid.

OSX10.6 and now iPhoto11 have failed and to put a lot of funny interface in Lion will not help.

Stop fore a while and think it over please.

thronborg

Although I'm not in as big a panic about it as you seem to be, it is hard to escape the feeling that parts of the visual presentation resembled some very old Windows ideas a little too closely.

And when I refer to old Windows ideas, I mean way back to like Windows 3.11 For Workgroups, stuff like that.

The iOS users seem to want to get their icons off the desktop/home screen, and the OSX people seem to want to get them *on* the desktop.

I dunno....

:-)


its a good job we did not have the tinternet when we changed from DOS to windows 3 , we that could use DOS were appalled .
Wow. I remember that.

But I also remember the Atari-Commodore War.

Mackilroy
Nov 14, 2010, 01:19 PM
Aha... Of course not. But to release a public version that deletes the customers files is new. No matter if they release a fix. THIS IS NOT ALLOWED 2010,NO WAY!.
You have every right to expect an application that doesn't delete your files, but I'll note that Apple does test these – it's not as if they simply release apps into the wild without any concern for their users.

Answer
It obviously that you have not seen iPhoto11. The biggest, (my view) is the lack of sending a batch of photos, neither can you send them in smaller files than original, and not without the silly book design. Read more at:
http://forum.hardmac.com/index.php?showtopic=9147
I have, actually. There's always ways around that – is it less convenient? Yes. But still possible.

Answer
If Apple sell iLife11, a package including 4 apps. and release the package as "Incredible NEW iLife11". Then 99.9% of the user just think that. If they sell them as stand alone apps its ok, but Apple dont. You cant buy just iPhoto. Its a odd view you have, i wonder in what business you are?
As has been pointed out, you'll be able to buy the iLife apps separately upon launch of the Mac App Store.

What business am I in? None currently, I'm an engineering student.

Answer
Yes you are right, all users have a lot of choices today. Regarding apps, instead of iPhoto you can use Picasa, Shobox, Aperture, Lightroom, Microsoft Expression etc. But the OS we are dependent of and cant choose. And the Apps we buyed from them must be trusted.

Downgrade man 2.
You can not upgrade or switch to Windows if you're worried about the direction Apple is taking. Updates are not mandatory. You always have a choice.

karsten
Nov 14, 2010, 08:06 PM
Seriously apple? How many years did you have to work on this?

they've had ios priorities i think the last few years.

jnpy!$4g3cwk
Nov 14, 2010, 10:33 PM
The future of Apple products are dumbed-down idiot devices for passive users.
I don't think Steve Jobs understands that a lot of the people who use Macs are creative professionals who can handle the complexity and power of a proper operating system.

I'm not purchasing anything Apple until I see any evidence that I'm wrong on this.

I definitely will NOT upgrade to Lion, even if its free. It's not even worth the half our upgrade time.

Seriously apple? How many years did you have to work on this?

I will purchase something if I think it will be worth it given an expected lifetime of three years.

I understand how people can be put off by the marketing, but really, Snowleopard has been great. 64-bit almost everything, and, it has all been extremely reliable for me. But, Steve can't sell that to the masses, now can he? It may be a similar situation with Lion, we don't know. Sure, Apple may start destroying what they have built, but, why would they? Something tells me that Apple will add some stuff that will appeal to neophytes, but, allow the rest of us to keep using it the way we have been for the last 6-7 years.

mrsir2009
Nov 14, 2010, 11:40 PM
I'd buy Lion just for the features they showed in the demo! Just can't wait for the app store for Snow Leopard and the remaining 90% of the Lion features to be revealed :D

From what I can see, Lion is not locking the Mac down. Sure, in future versions it may, but not Lion. :p

George Knighton
Nov 15, 2010, 08:24 AM
From what I can see, Lion is not locking the Mac down. Sure, in future versions it may, but not Lion. :p

Although I can see the resemblance between some aspects of the presentation and some old Microsoft ideas from long, long ago, I admit that I will almost certainly move to Lion.

My impression of a large minority of Apple OS users is that we have moved to the Mac systems when we are simply tired of tweaking operating systems, and need to get on with the real work of life. I don't see that Lion will compromise this opinion in any way, so I'll be there right beside you.

MattInOz
Nov 16, 2010, 10:29 PM
The future of Apple products are dumbed-down idiot devices for passive users.
I don't think Steve Jobs understands that a lot of the people who use Macs are creative professionals who can handle the complexity and power of a proper operating system.


Well as a creative professional surely you understand every tool has it's job. You don't use a pencil when you need a pen. The best tools do their job then get out of your way. A hex shaped pencil is better a round one that keeps rolling off the desk.

The roll of the OS is to act a platform to work on. If it can get you to work quicker and keeps you there it's doing it's job.

I mean just think about application updates.
At the moment developers have a number of choices about updates.
When you start the program, stopping you from getting to work.
A little while after you start or some random time, making you stop and restart.
When you quit, stopping you from getting on with the next task or annoying you in the middle of the next task.

Which of these is really that good.

The App store will add the option of dealing as many updates as it can at the same time that you get to choose. Sounds like big potential for an improvement.

Sure maybe as we get more detail it will turn out that it sucks, that there are bad things involved, that dev's aren't going to make use of it due to a bad deal. Just not sure why so many people are going in to this assuming they will be screwed over.

Andeavor
Jan 27, 2011, 04:44 PM
Some people are afraid of change. I used to be like that, too, but I've learnt to give in and go with the flow since I have no say in what they do to the OS I'm using. If an updated OS breaks applications, then you simply wait until those applications are updated. I went through the same ordeal when Vista came out but I survive with patience. :)

JKK photography
Jan 28, 2011, 10:31 PM
Some people are afraid of change. I used to be like that, too, but I've learnt to give in and go with the flow since I have no say in what they do to the OS I'm using. If an updated OS breaks applications, then you simply wait until those applications are updated. I went through the same ordeal when Vista came out but I survive with patience. :)

I hate to sound like a political commercial, but I do think that this is partially correct.

There are going to be some new UI paradigms behind Lion that haven't really ever been tried in a desktop environment before. That's OK; the desktop market has been pretty stale and slow to react the past couple of years. People have grown complacent in that time, and so any thought of change scares them.

Mission Control alone looks interesting. Apple finally fixed Spaces, or so it seems. Launchpad will be something interesting, as will the inclusion of (hopefully) more robust multitouch gestures. Full screen apps should be optional, so that shouldn't mess with anyone's workflow if they don't like it. Auto saving could become annoying, though I'm sure Apple will allow for some type of version tracking.

Basically, go watch the keynote: OSX isn't dead. It's simply being evolved. The apps that make the platform as great as it is aren't going to change. If they do, it will probably be for the better.

In other words: let's all just wait and see. Jobs repeatedly stated a phrase along the lines of, "We don't have time to show you everything here today, but I'll outline some of the higher up features." I personally take that to mean UI changes, so hopefully more is being done behind the scenes.

chrismacguy
Jan 29, 2011, 07:15 AM
I hate to sound like a political commercial, but I do think that this is partially correct.

There are going to be some new UI paradigms behind Lion that haven't really ever been tried in a desktop environment before. That's OK; the desktop market has been pretty stale and slow to react the past couple of years. People have grown complacent in that time, and so any thought of change scares them.

Mission Control alone looks interesting. Apple finally fixed Spaces, or so it seems. Launchpad will be something interesting, as will the inclusion of (hopefully) more robust multitouch gestures. Full screen apps should be optional, so that shouldn't mess with anyone's workflow if they don't like it. Auto saving could become annoying, though I'm sure Apple will allow for some type of version tracking.

Basically, go watch the keynote: OSX isn't dead. It's simply being evolved. The apps that make the platform as great as it is aren't going to change. If they do, it will probably be for the better.

In other words: let's all just wait and see. Jobs repeatedly stated a phrase along the lines of, "We don't have time to show you everything here today, but I'll outline some of the higher up features." I personally take that to mean UI changes, so hopefully more is being done behind the scenes.

What the keynote basically said was "Were busy rewriting bits of the underside of OS X 10.7, so we can show you the pretty UI bits that dont rely on that bolted onto OS X 10.6" - Personally Ill be upgrading on Launch day, as I have for every major OS Release while Ive been a Mac User - never had a problem under OS X, in fact the only time I really had issues was making the jump from OS 8 to OS 9.0.4 - it caused a few headaches, but nothing major.

Thunderbird
Jan 29, 2011, 04:23 PM
Personally, I can't wait for LaunchPad because opening Finder and scrolling through a list of Applications is a mess.
Is that how you open applications? I just use the dock...much easier. LaunchPad seems utterly redundant.

JKK photography
Jan 29, 2011, 04:53 PM
What the keynote basically said was "Were busy rewriting bits of the underside of OS X 10.7, so we can show you the pretty UI bits that dont rely on that bolted onto OS X 10.6" - Personally Ill be upgrading on Launch day, as I have for every major OS Release while Ive been a Mac User - never had a problem under OS X, in fact the only time I really had issues was making the jump from OS 8 to OS 9.0.4 - it caused a few headaches, but nothing major.

Exactly; they showed the UI off a bit to people who would post it on different web sites where people who don't necessarily care about other changes would see it.

I'll be upgrading on launch day as well.

chrismacguy
Jan 29, 2011, 06:32 PM
Is that how you open applications? I just use the dock...much easier. LaunchPad seems utterly redundant.

Some of us use enough applications semi-regularly for them not to all fit in the Dock, at least not at a size thats comfortable (and I hate zooming). My list: (App Store, Mail, Safari, iChat, iCal, Address Book, Preview, iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie HD, GarageBand, Cinema Tools, Color, Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, LiveType, Soundtrack Pro, Motion, DVD Studio Pro, Flash Pro, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Celtx, TextWrangler, XCode, Interface Builder, Terminal, Messenger, MacTracker, Skype, Pages, Keynote, Numbers, Activity Monitor, Quartz Composer, Photoshop, InDesign, System Preferences, Sims 3, Steam, Firefox, Sketchup, Adobe Reader, Qadministrator, Remote Desktop, MS Remote Desktop and VirtualBox) - Even on my 27" Cinema Display along the bottom having all those in my dock + the 25-30 Windows I Normally have minimized makes it pretty much useless - hence I use the Applications stack (or Spotlight, but generally the stack) to launch many of the apps, while only having the ones I open first in my Dock. The worst part is, I have some other Apps I only use occasionally, which I also use the Applications Stack to get to (WaveBurner, iDVD, iWeb).

Thunderbird
Jan 30, 2011, 05:20 PM
Some of us use enough applications semi-regularly for them not to all fit in the Dock, at least not at a size thats comfortable (and I hate zooming). My list: (App Store, Mail, Safari, iChat, iCal, Address Book, Preview, iTunes, iPhoto, iMovie HD, GarageBand, Cinema Tools, Color, Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, LiveType, Soundtrack Pro, Motion, DVD Studio Pro, Flash Pro, Dreamweaver, Fireworks, Celtx, TextWrangler, XCode, Interface Builder, Terminal, Messenger, MacTracker, Skype, Pages, Keynote, Numbers, Activity Monitor, Quartz Composer, Photoshop, InDesign, System Preferences, Sims 3, Steam, Firefox, Sketchup, Adobe Reader, Qadministrator, Remote Desktop, MS Remote Desktop and VirtualBox) - Even on my 27" Cinema Display along the bottom having all those in my dock + the 25-30 Windows I Normally have minimized makes it pretty much useless - hence I use the Applications stack (or Spotlight, but generally the stack) to launch many of the apps, while only having the ones I open first in my Dock. The worst part is, I have some other Apps I only use occasionally, which I also use the Applications Stack to get to (WaveBurner, iDVD, iWeb).

I understand. Would LaunchPad work better for you than the application stack? It would seem to me to take the same number of clicks, and LaunchPad just seems like a 'stack' spread out over the desktop.

Mork
Jan 31, 2011, 07:29 AM
My two cents...

As a Java developer, I am very concerned (though there are "Java alternatives") that Apple has deprecated Java.

By all rights, Java is, and has been, the #1 programming language out there for a long while. I realize Apple may just be saying that somebody else ("Sunacle") may need to support it, but still...

Add to the Java deprecation, the (possible) dumbing down of the interface in 10.7 where the finder "could" go away, among other "enhancements", and these changes could make it more difficult for power users to get their job done.

I'm just saying .... "could".

Trying to use iPhoto 11, for example, if this is any indication of what's coming, was maddening, bugs or no bugs.

I do not want a giant ipad!

Although I have no way of knowing what will actually be coming, and it may be great, there's still enough been said (and already done with the Java deprecation) to make me start looking at Windows machines again... :(

I don't like Windows, but it doesn't force me to program in Objective-C (ugh!) or stay up at nights wondering if somebody will eventually step in and support Java.

-------------

Many users have no idea what a hierarchical filing system is, how to open a terminal window and do an "ls", etc.. Fine.

But!!! Please don't take this capability away from those of us who are developers/power users and use this all the time.

Perhaps a "power users mode" would work?

A giant database of everything may be the way things are going (perhaps I'm stuck in an old way of thinking), but I'm not yet convinced.

For a giant database to store everything (no more folders, etc.) I always think about what a raving success the "Registry" is in Windows (NOT!)

Even the experts can't currently agree on where things are going.

So far, only Mission control looks good to me as it fixes the fragmented ways of doing spaces and such in 10.6.x.

This is all unnerving and I'm no longer convinced Apple is headed the same direction, as a software developer and power users, that I want to be.

:(

-- M

ZilogZ80
Jan 31, 2011, 07:35 AM
the (possible) dumbing down of the interface in 10.7 where the finder "could" go away
do you really think there is any possibility of this actually happening? Possibly it might be pushed to the background (in the same way Terminal is now) but I cannot see it disappearing entirely.

Mork
Jan 31, 2011, 07:42 AM
do you really think there is any possibility of this actually happening? Possibly it might be pushed to the background (in the same way Terminal is now) but I cannot see it disappearing entirely.

(Good screen name, BTW!)

They actually discussed the finder going away in a screen cast on the Mac World site: (http://www.macworld.com/article/157507/2011/01/mwpodcast228.html)

Listen to this screen cast and you'll hear the experts echo many of the same concerns.

------------------

I'm a little more concerned than some folks perhaps given what Apple has already done to deprecate Java. I have spent many thousands of dollars on Macs (Macs seem to be like cats: you can't have just one...) to find that I still need to run a Windows VM for some programs.

To your question though, I have no idea what Apple is thinking.

I think many Java developers already feel slighted by the "deprecation" decision and after the "Back to the Mac" event, it looks like a giant iPad could be in store (of course you still get to program in Objective C).

I get the idea of making computers more accessible to people, and based on how much time I support users with the same basic concepts over and over (even on the Mac), I see the benefits of simplification.

Still, as someone who runs multiple IDEs for Java development, does database development, runs Photoshop, OpenOffice for lots of documents, and tons of other real software (none of which would work well on an ipad), I continue to be concerned by Apple's great "new ideas" and how they'll affect someone like me who works in the "document model".

Considering how wonderful the Mac currently is, I hope my concerns are unfounded.

Time will tell.

- M

chrismacguy
Jan 31, 2011, 07:47 AM
(Good screen name, BTW!)

They actually discussed the finder going away in a screen cast on the Mac World site: (http://www.macworld.com/article/157507/2011/01/mwpodcast228.html)

Listen to this screen cast and you'll hear the experts echo many of the same concerns.

------------------

I'm a little more concerned than some folks perhaps given what Apple has already done to deprecate Java. I have spent many thousands of dollars on Macs (Macs seem to be like cats: you can't have just one...) to find that I still need to run a Windows VM for some programs.

To your question though, I have no idea what Apple is thinking.

I think many Java developers already feel slighted by the "deprecation" decision and after the "Back to the Mac" event, it looks like a giant iPad could be in store (of course you can still program in Objective C).

I get the idea of making computers more accessible to people, and based on how much time I support users with the same basic concepts over and over (even on the Mac), I see the benefits of simplification.

Still, as someone who runs multiple IDEs for Java development, does database development, runs Photoshop, OpenOffice for lots of documents, and tons of other real software (none of which would work well on an ipad), I continue to be concerned by Apple's great "new ideas".

Time will tell.

- M

This is why Ive said this before and Ill say it again: The Mac isnt going anywhere, its just going to become a true professional system (While losing Java might be sad, lets be frank, we can just install the Java stuff back anyway - once it finally jumps, it will be brought back by everyone - there are enough people for it to be around on the Mac for years to come), with iOSX for Consumer devices.

Mork
Jan 31, 2011, 07:49 AM
This is why Ive said this before and Ill say it again: The Mac isnt going anywhere, its just going to become a true professional system (While losing Java might be sad, lets be frank, we can just install the Java stuff back anyway - once it finally jumps, it will be brought back by everyone - there are enough people for it to be around on the Mac for years to come), with iOSX for Consumer devices.

Here here.

I hope you're right! :)

ZilogZ80
Jan 31, 2011, 07:58 AM
(Good screen name, BTW!)
Thanks!

They actually discussed the finder going away in a screen cast on the Mac World site: (http://www.macworld.com/article/157507/2011/01/mwpodcast228.html)

Listen to this screen cast and you'll hear the experts echo many of the same concerns.
Thanks for the link. Haven't got time for a 49min video right now, but I may watch it later. None of that is direct from Apple though is it? All conjecture.

I think many Java developers already feel slighted by the "deprecation" decision and after the "Back to the Mac" event, it looks like a giant iPad could be in store (of course you still get to program in Objective C).
I'm sure (read: I hope!) it won't be as bad as all that. I suppose only time will tell though!

iPhoneCollector
Jan 31, 2011, 08:00 AM
Four Macs. Zero Problems.
That is what the op doesn't get. By the way did you hear windows 8 is going to fix all the problems windows7 had

Mork
Jan 31, 2011, 09:00 AM
Thanks!


Thanks for the link. Haven't got time for a 49min video right now, but I may watch it later. None of that is direct from Apple though is it? All conjecture.


I'm sure (read: I hope!) it won't be as bad as all that. I suppose only time will tell though!

That's exactly the problem: it's all conjecture!

If Apple had taken 5 seconds during any of the presentation(s) to just say something like: "Power users will still be able to use the Mac like they always have." (or words to that effect), it would have made a huge difference.

Again, this (Power User) oversight combined with conjecture and the actual deprecation of Java is troubling (that is, the direction in which the Mac may be headed)...

-- M

superstrikertwo
Jan 31, 2011, 10:37 AM
Most of you "power users" are overreacting. You don't know what's going to happen so you're coming up with these elaborate ideas that Apple is going to remove everything and just make it a giant iPad. Apple isn't going to do that if anything, as someone said above, Apple will just push the "power user" stuff to the background so the average user isn't confused. It'll still be there but the OS will function better for the majority of their users.

I realize you're worried but there isn't anything to be worried about. There have been no signs that Apple is going to dumb the whole thing down.

Mork
Jan 31, 2011, 10:54 AM
Most of you "power users" are overreacting. You don't know what's going to happen so you're coming up with these elaborate ideas that Apple is going to remove everything and just make it a giant iPad. Apple isn't going to do that if anything, as someone said above, Apple will just push the "power user" stuff to the background so the average user isn't confused. It'll still be there but the OS will function better for the majority of their users.

I realize you're worried but there isn't anything to be worried about. There have been no signs that Apple is going to dumb the whole thing down.

Yes, you could be right. But the Back to the Mac event looked more like the ipad is coming to the mac (ios).

Unless you have inside information you could share, I can only go on what I've seen from Apple. Otherwise, you're also conjecturing and guessing along with the rest of us. :)

However, assuming you're right, then OS/X 10.7 will be better overall. I just need to make sure I can get work done...

I didn't consider myself a power user, per se, until I considered the ipad as a model for computing.

Java is _already_ problematic. AFAIK, nobody has yet stepped up to take over distributing it to the mac. IDE vendors are readying contingency plans I know, but nobody is happy about the state of Java on the Mac that I know.

Hopefully, as your post suggests, the whole issue is a communications failure by Apple. However, as good as Apple is at communicating, this too is surprising.

Thanks for your posting.

Mackilroy
Feb 5, 2011, 11:34 AM
It's more of iPad ideas coming to OS X, rather than iOS replacing OS X.

Treeman574
Feb 8, 2011, 02:10 AM
When updating my imac previously, I have always waited to see if the improvement is worth it or if there were any steps backwards.

These subtle differences in the way the os works mean almost nothing to me but have previously caused problems when updating the os. (10.2 to 10.4 everything dies and must use a backup. Grrrrr! took even longer with usb 1.1 back then...)

JKK photography
Feb 8, 2011, 07:32 AM
Yes, you could be right. But the Back to the Mac event looked more like the ipad is coming to the mac (ios).

Unless you have inside information you could share, I can only go on what I've seen from Apple. Otherwise, you're also conjecturing and guessing along with the rest of us. :)

However, assuming you're right, then OS/X 10.7 will be better overall. I just need to make sure I can get work done...

I didn't consider myself a power user, per se, until I considered the ipad as a model for computing.

Java is _already_ problematic. AFAIK, nobody has yet stepped up to take over distributing it to the mac. IDE vendors are readying contingency plans I know, but nobody is happy about the state of Java on the Mac that I know.

Hopefully, as your post suggests, the whole issue is a communications failure by Apple. However, as good as Apple is at communicating, this too is surprising.

Thanks for your posting.

You aren't going by what you have seen, you are going by what you haven't seen.

They show some features that look like some of the design and UX aspects of the iPad will be coming to their computer lineup. And people go crazy, thinking that Lion -- and the Mac -- will be closed, that the Mac App Store will be the only way to get software. I don't see the logical jump there.

r0k
Feb 8, 2011, 02:01 PM
It's a bit early to scream "Stop Lion!". I use OS X and iOS. I prefer iOS for simple tasks like web browsing, games, looking up phone numbers, etc. In fact, Address and iCal feel downright clunky next to my iPhone and iPad for those tasks. I would love to see dashboard turned into an "iOS" for the desktop where I could run the iOS apps I purchased for my iThings on my Mac if I wanted to. But I definitely don't want to see, nor do I expect to see the entire OS "dumbed down". Sure they might hide the finder. Big whoop. I'll find and unhide it first thing just like I used to go pick "show file extensions" immediately whenever I got a new windows box.

I may not agree with everything Apple does, but I do agree with their approach to providing a near flawless end to end user experience. I know this is a bit of a reach but it reminds me of the difference between going to Disney World versus going to Cedar Point. Sure I can ride bigger coasters at "the Point", but the hotel selection and food selection is rather spotty just like those other OS appear to have more user customization and less of a "walled garden" approach. Much like iOS, everything at DW is rigidly controlled, more expensive, and the coasters aren't as big, but I can easily observe at all times that I am being taken care of by an outfit that is dedicated to making sure I'm delighted during my entire stay. So if Disney decides to take out the fast pass system and institute some sort of wireless reservation system for the rides, I'm not going to run around screaming "Give me back my fastpass!" like the lunatic fringe that gets all worked up every time Apple so much as hints at changing OSX. Change is good and I'd rather have those changes being made by a company that cares about whether or not I like their product.

I watched the entire panel discussion and I don't think the sky is falling on OS X and neither do any of the panelists. I'm glad that video was linked here as it adds value to this otherwise alarmist thread.

Mork
Feb 8, 2011, 02:13 PM
It's a bit early to scream "Stop Lion!". I use OS X and iOS. I prefer iOS for simple tasks like web browsing, games, looking up phone numbers, etc. In fact, Address and iCal feel downright clunky next to my iPhone and iPad for those tasks. I would love to see dashboard turned into an "iOS" for the desktop where I could run the iOS apps I purchased for my iThings on my Mac if I wanted to. But I definitely don't want to see, nor do I expect to see the entire OS "dumbed down". Sure they might hide the finder. Big whoop. I'll find and unhide it first thing just like I used to go pick "show file extensions" immediately whenever I got a new windows box.

I may not agree with everything Apple does, but I do agree with their approach to providing a near flawless end to end user experience. I know this is a bit of a reach but it reminds me of the difference between going to Disney World versus going to Cedar Point. Sure I can ride bigger coasters at "the Point", but the hotel selection and food selection is rather spotty just like those other OS appear to have more user customization and less of a "walled garden" approach. Much like iOS, everything at DW is rigidly controlled, more expensive, and the coasters aren't as big, but I can easily observe at all times that I am being taken care of by an outfit that is dedicated to making sure I'm delighted during my entire stay. So if Disney decides to take out the fast pass system and institute some sort of wireless reservation system for the rides, I'm not going to run around screaming "Give me back my fastpass!" like the lunatic fringe that gets all worked up every time Apple so much as hints at changing OSX. Change is good and I'd rather have those changes being made by a company that cares about whether or not I like their product.

----------------------

No rant meant toward you in my reply below and this thread was not meant, by me, anyway, to be "alarmist" as you said above :)

I assume you're not a Java developer, right?

If you were, you'd see that you can't even debug a Java application in Eclipse without first becoming an Apple developer and agreeing to, in full, an onerous multi-multi-multi-....-page agreement - which you have no ability to modify as you see fit (Apple: take it or leave it).

The debugging issue seems to be a missing JDK jar file from the standard Java download that you can only, apparently, get if you're an "Apple Developer".

My experience has, sadly, been far from perfect -- at least with work related application development.

I make my living writing software. As good as the Mac platform should be for Java (THE #1 language on the planet), Apple appears to have made Java a deprecated language in favor of its own preference (Objective C).

Therefore, I have to do actual "work" in Windows. Great (NOT).

Had I known all this before I bought the Mac, I would not have.

(My Windows friends will get a real kick out of this...., but hey, they're too busy actually getting work done!)

I now probably going to find somebody who just wants a cute machine (my mac) and who wants whatever 10.7 has coming.

The Mac is a great machine, and it's NEVER CRASHED. But, for the special things I need to do (like Java development and running some programs), it's just not there for me.

Java may not even exist in 10.7 requiring a yet-to-be-identified company to pick up the ball.

I'll probably just get a Windows laptop. I won't enjoy Windows like I enjoy the Mac (10.6, anyway), but at least I'll get my work done without all the stress of things not working for NO GOOD REASON.

And, there are lots of programs that only run on Windows that I miss (and due to Apple's relatively small "PC" market share may never be on the Mac).

Thanks for your note.

- M

thronborg
Nov 11, 2012, 03:36 PM
Times goes fast and i swallowed deep and installed OSX Lion eight months ago when i brought a new MacBookPro. Today i am so happy i let my other Macs continue running 10.6.8.

My history with Mac.
I brought my first Macintosh 128 where the operating system 1.0 come on a 400 kb floppy. I still have the disk. From this point Apple had some problem with the OS i think it was version 6 or 7 that Apple had to totally rewrite from the beginning. From the switch to 32bit, and then to Intel from Motorola processors was just so smooth. Amazing work from the Apple guys. Apple has time after time proved to me that they are to trust and they do a professional work. That was the past 25 years.

Now its different
OSX 10.7... Lion is a mess. YES both in GUI, programming and what the hell, lets delete some old things that has been in a Mac since the start. Yes i talk about the "Save as..." There is so many many things that just sucks so listing them here i am afraid the server will go down.

I hav now downgraded from my Lion experience to 10.6.8 on all my 5 Macs. Maybe in the future i will update to 11.2. This time Apple went to far out in nowhere.

Thats from my heart opinion.

Simplicated
Nov 11, 2012, 10:19 PM
Times goes fast and i swallowed deep and installed OSX Lion eight months ago when i brought a new MacBookPro. Today i am so happy i let my other Macs continue running 10.6.8.

My history with Mac.
I brought my first Macintosh 128 where the operating system 1.0 come on a 400 kb floppy. I still have the disk. From this point Apple had some problem with the OS i think it was version 6 or 7 that Apple had to totally rewrite from the beginning. From the switch to 32bit, and then to Intel from Motorola processors was just so smooth. Amazing work from the Apple guys. Apple has time after time proved to me that they are to trust and they do a professional work. That was the past 25 years.

Now its different
OSX 10.7... Lion is a mess. YES both in GUI, programming and what the hell, lets delete some old things that has been in a Mac since the start. Yes i talk about the "Save as..." There is so many many things that just sucks so listing them here i am afraid the server will go down.

I hav now downgraded from my Lion experience to 10.6.8 on all my 5 Macs. Maybe in the future i will update to 11.2. This time Apple went to far out in nowhere.

Thats from my heart opinion.

Your eight month MacBook Pro old should be able to run Snow Leopard actually, if it's the early 2011 or late 2011 model.

thronborg
Nov 12, 2012, 02:58 AM
Your eight month MacBook Pro old should be able to run Snow Leopard actually, if it's the early 2011 or late 2011 model.

That can be the reason i dont know but it come with Lion installed brand new. So you mean you should not install Lion on a Mac older than early 2011?

That can be the performance reason. But it has nothing to do with the Messy everything else. Sorry to say.

OT

Simplicated
Nov 12, 2012, 07:52 AM
That can be the reason i dont know but it come with Lion installed brand new. So you mean you should not install Lion on a Mac older than early 2011?

That can be the performance reason. But it has nothing to do with the Messy everything else. Sorry to say.

OT

Which model of MacBook Pro do you have? You can find that out in System Information.

WSR
Nov 12, 2012, 04:57 PM
I'm planning to stick with 10.6.8 until a grid based Spaces is returned and Full-Screen with multiple monitors is fixed.
I also don't like the loss of "Save As..." Though it did return as a keystroke in ML.
Plus, I don't like the limited control over Resume, Versions and AutoSave.