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jbg232
Nov 3, 2010, 10:27 AM
OK, for all you longtime apple veterans, I would like a historical analysis of how much apple has "sneak-peaked" in the past. From my recollection, the preview of Leopard actually was pretty complete with them even having to take away major components on initial release (time machine over external hdd linked to airport extreme, and ZFS support which was ultimately canned).

Everyone is saying that we haven't seen 1/10 or ____ (insert fraction of your choosing here) of Lion yet, but I want to know how accurate this claim is. IE, in older versions of OS X 10.1, 10.2, 10.3, 10.4, how much of the actual OS was previewed during the sneak-peak events. I suspect it is far more than less and that the major improvements in Lion are, fortunately or not, the main ones that were demoed already.



maflynn
Nov 3, 2010, 10:36 AM
In prior sneek peaks apple unveiled all of the major features leaving small tweaks and changes to be experienced by the consumer.

So to that end, I believe what was shown off, was a fairly feature complete OS and that we'll not see any new major features.

Tom8
Nov 3, 2010, 02:42 PM
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I'm sure there's one or two pretty major things that didn't make the keynote. I don't think there's going to be a ton more new features. Maybe some new gestures will be announced too.

jbg232
Nov 4, 2010, 06:31 AM
My suspicions are confirmed as I just don't see apple not highlighting a major feature during an event dedicated for Lion itself. I could always be proved wrong though...

mrkramer
Nov 4, 2010, 06:39 AM
We saw all of the main features except for possibly 1 or 2, they may make more interface changes between now and release, like they did with leopard. The rest of the features that we haven't seen will be small optimizations to make it run better.

richard.mac
Nov 4, 2010, 07:01 AM
the features they show at keynotes are the main selling point consumer features. whats good is there are lesser known features added. Leopard had like 300 or so features (although half of them were significant) and Snow Leopard had no selling point features, but many new back-end and usability features.

So they may have shown all the big features of Lion or there may be a few more, but what i am excited about are the lesser known features that Apple may publish or are discovered later by users. one such i saw mentioned here is all edge resizing of windows (mentioned by a user who correctly proposed there will be a Mac App Store), which might be a bore to Windows users, but much needed on Macs.

maflynn
Nov 4, 2010, 07:19 AM
My suspicions are confirmed as I just don't see apple not highlighting a major feature during an event dedicated for Lion itself. I could always be proved wrong though...

That's my perspective. Jobs ever the salesman really wants to show off the new OS. Why have a major feature waiting in the wings and not show it off. Especially given the meager features he was showing off to start with.

I mean with Leopard they were touting 300 new/enhanced features. With 10.7 we have an app store (not really OS dependent), Launchpad, Full-screen apps and Mission Control. Not really an overwhelming list of features to tout, even when you throw in facetime for OSX or autosaving

I mean if apple were to include resolution independence, or a new file system, etc, don't you think they would have used that event to show it off.

In this case what we saw for the most part is what we'll get. Sure there will be some small updates, polishes to existing features but nothing major.

Mal
Nov 4, 2010, 12:36 PM
Apple would definitely hold back demoing a major feature that was going to be included if it wasn't ready in time for the demo. I can definitely see some new features being introduced between now and the actual release date, if they simply weren't ready to be demoed. We know Steve's passion for perfection, and that applies double and triple to his demo's compared to the release of a product.

jW

jbg232
Nov 5, 2010, 03:26 PM
Apple would definitely hold back demoing a major feature that was going to be included if it wasn't ready in time for the demo. I can definitely see some new features being introduced between now and the actual release date, if they simply weren't ready to be demoed. We know Steve's passion for perfection, and that applies double and triple to his demo's compared to the release of a product.

jW

But he did demo time machine saying it would be able to be used with an airport extreme way before it was ready (it took a year after Leopard's release to get that functionality). I think they would want to show everything they can reasonably release. My initial post was asking if anyone knew how what they sneak-peaked in Tiger, Puma, etc, compared to what was ultimately released. I assume the features to be almost identical.

freedevil
Nov 5, 2010, 09:56 PM
I agree, the new features are disappointing. Barely anything new here, why can't they add a simple theming capability.

PurrBall
Nov 5, 2010, 10:18 PM
Seeing how buggy the features they demoed were, they probably didn't want to commit to anything else until they can get it relatively stable.

lewis82
Nov 6, 2010, 11:00 AM
Seeing how buggy the features they demoed were, they probably didn't want to commit to anything else until they can get it relatively stable.

None of the features were buggy. If you're talking about the gestures not responding, then it's the guy's shaky hands who are at fault.

rjheys
Nov 6, 2010, 11:14 AM
None of the features were buggy. If you're talking about the gestures not responding, then it's the guy's shaky hands who are at fault.

There were quite a few bugs I noticed during the keynote, one that immediately springs to mind was when he clicked out of a folder in Launchpad and it would cause the list of apps to zoom to the last page. this happened three of four times during the keynote.

jaw04005
Nov 6, 2010, 11:58 AM
I think Lion will be as big of an OS X update as Leopard (and cost $129 accordingly), and I bet they hold a WWDC event for Mac developers before its release next summer that will showcase the more geeky features (new Core frameworks, etc) and previously unannounced user features.

Jobs even hinted at that in an e-mail reply to a Mac developer:

"We are focusing primarily (though not exclusively) on iPhone OS this year. Maybe next year we will focus primarily on the Mac. Just the normal cycle of things. No hidden meaning here."

http://www.macstories.net/news/steve-jobs-email-apple-design-awards-wwdc-2010/

There's been some discussion about splitting up iOS and Mac conferences. Who knows if that's true. I think many would prefer that, but Apple basically shuts down the week of WWDC to allow its engineers to teach at that conference.

That's thousands of personnel that aren't doing their day jobs because they're either preparing for or attending WWDC. Not to mention, the engineering ramp up to have things ready for WWDC and iOS and Mac OS X share a lot of the same frameworks.

HelveticaNeue
Nov 6, 2010, 04:58 PM
There were quite a few bugs I noticed during the keynote ... when he clicked out of a folder in Launchpad and it would cause the list of apps to zoom to the last page.

I also noticed when he made a folder in Launchpad, when he dropped Keynote onto Numbers to make a folder, the folder icon only showed Numbers. Then when he added Pages to the same folder, the folder then showed Numbers and Keynote but not Pages.

Lord Appleseed
Nov 7, 2010, 06:56 AM
I also noticed when he made a folder in Launchpad, when he dropped Keynote onto Numbers to make a folder, the folder icon only showed Numbers. Then when he added Pages to the same folder, the folder then showed Numbers and Keynote but not Pages.

That also reminds me of the missing light indicators in the dock...bug or none?
But then again...if they chose to remove the indicators, how will you be able to see what programs are running/frozen state? I dont feel like bringing up the Activity-monitor all the time.

maflynn
Nov 7, 2010, 07:56 AM
I think Lion will be as big of an OS X update as Leopard (and cost $129 accordingly), and I bet they hold a WWDC event for Mac developers before its release next summer that will showcase the more geeky features (new Core frameworks, etc) and previously unannounced user features.
Waiting until June for WWDC to showcase 10.7 will be too late. Developers need more advance warning to update their apps for the new OS.

I'm a doubting thomas on this, apple underwhelmed us with SnowLeopard, and so trying to generate excitement they failed to really showcase 10.7. I mean if the purpose of the event was to highlight OSX and decided not to show off all major features (even those that are not finished) they messed up. Why showcase a product and not highlight all major features.

As it stands the excitement level on 10.7 is not that high (from where I sit)

HelveticaNeue
Nov 7, 2010, 08:59 AM
...if they chose to remove the indicators, how will you be able to see what programs are running/frozen state?

I share your concern and I don't think it's a bug. I believe Apple seeks to dissolve the boundary between an app being open and closed, thus no indicator is needed. I am mostly fine with that part. However, what about apps that don't utilize freeze states but remain running in the background, like Mail? How will I know if Mail is running in the background or closed?

I am also concerned with some apps re-opening from saved states like Preview and Pages. When I close document in Pages, I don't want it to reopen the next time ... that seems annoying. And what about looking at porn ... the next time your girlfriend opens Preview or VLC she'll see what you were looking at.

Oh well, I suppose I will just trust Apple to design an elegant solution that just works and save by complaints until I experience the final build.

Zackmd1
Nov 7, 2010, 10:33 AM
Did anyone else notice the missing icons in the menubar? When I was watching the keynote I noticed there were no wifi, time, time machine, and bluetooth icons in the menubar, the only icon that was there was spotlight. Is this a bug or a feature of Lion?

Lord Appleseed
Nov 7, 2010, 11:55 AM
I share your concern and I don't think it's a bug. I believe Apple seeks to dissolve the boundary between an app being open and closed, thus no indicator is needed. I am mostly fine with that part. However, what about apps that don't utilize freeze states but remain running in the background, like Mail? How will I know if Mail is running in the background or closed?

I am also concerned with some apps re-opening from saved states like Preview and Pages. When I close document in Pages, I don't want it to reopen the next time ... that seems annoying. And what about looking at porn ... the next time your girlfriend opens Preview or VLC she'll see what you were looking at.

Oh well, I suppose I will just trust Apple to design an elegant solution that just works and save by complaints until I experience the final build.:eek:!

Did anyone else notice the missing icons in the menubar? When I was watching the keynote I noticed there were no wifi, time, time machine, and bluetooth icons in the menubar, the only icon that was there was spotlight. Is this a bug or a feature of Lion?I guess thats just because it is alpha/beta(whatever state),a lot things didnt work properly like the folder-creation thingy, as previously mentioned.

lewis82
Nov 7, 2010, 03:12 PM
And what about looking at porn ... the next time your girlfriend opens Preview or VLC she'll see what you were looking at.

That is part of Apple's strategy to bring freedom from porn™ to everyone! You can't block these websites, but you can set things up so that viewing porn is discouraged...

:p

Nermal
Nov 7, 2010, 03:23 PM
As it stands the excitement level on 10.7 is not that high (from where I sit)

I have the same feeling. I haven't watched the video, but I did read the live notes from a couple of different sites and didn't see much in there at all. Fullscreen support, updated Exposé, a launcher... and what else? This is a serious question; the notes I read didn't list any other new features.

I'm sure that more will be added before release but as it stands, the announced features are absolutely not convincing me to buy the upgrade.

canyonblue737
Nov 8, 2010, 03:58 PM
I think the major "ideas" were shown. He left out demos of the autosaving, program state saving etc. which are very, very significant so that leaves a lot out to show. I also think there is a very good chance for a significant redesign of the overall theme, away from aqua, and toward what you are seeing in iOS / iTunes / iLife for better or worse, that is always good for a last minute demo and similar to what they did for Leopard/SnowLeopard (show major developer needed features a year off, then show some consumer "wow" features about 3-4 months prior to release.)

daleycss
Nov 8, 2010, 07:39 PM
What happened to this magical feature they were hiring someone for???? You would think that there must be something really big about lion that would make it really worthwhile. I mean, all of the features they showcased werent that outstading. I really dont think they were. So what is the big item they wrote about in their job application, There is something lurking out there.

Zackmd1
Nov 8, 2010, 08:25 PM
What happened to this magical feature they were hiring someone for???? You would think that there must be something really big about lion that would make it really worthwhile. I mean, all of the features they showcased werent that outstading. I really dont think they were. So what is the big item they wrote about in their job application, There is something lurking out there.

I was wondering about that too. I bet there is some big feature that wasn't showcased because it wasn't ready. We all can do is just wait and see... there might be something in January at the normal event.

Jasoco
Nov 9, 2010, 05:50 AM
Did anyone else notice the missing icons in the menubar? When I was watching the keynote I noticed there were no wifi, time, time machine, and bluetooth icons in the menubar, the only icon that was there was spotlight. Is this a bug or a feature of Lion?It's a demo machine. It doesn't need WiFi, Bluetooth or Time Machine.

HelveticaNeue
Nov 9, 2010, 06:20 AM
I think the killer feature they were hiring for is the Dropbox-killer Gruber mentioned. It remains to be seen if this will make it into Lion.

However, we have to consider the position advertised may have been intended for the NEXT version of Mac OS X (XI?). I mean, the job was advertised July 29 2010, a little late to be adding a feature to an OS that ships a year later.

maflynn
Nov 9, 2010, 06:52 AM
I think the killer feature they were hiring for is the Dropbox-killer Gruber mentioned. It remains to be seen if this will make it into Lion.
Dropbox killer?

Given the poor performance of iDisk, I don't think dropbox is all that worried.

HelveticaNeue
Nov 9, 2010, 07:49 AM
Given the poor performance of iDisk, I don't think dropbox is all that worried.

I love my iDisk. It used to be really buggy, but it has worked flawlessly for me for the last year. I haven't seen any error messages, had any hang ups, or deleting issues since before last Christmas. I think the bugs have been crushed or at least they have for me, using it on 3 Macs, 1 iPad and two iPhones.

Nishi100
Nov 9, 2010, 01:33 PM
I hope there is more.

However, I think that they've shown us the main features, apart from iWork.
In WWDC, I think they will concentrate on the possible touch screen iMac and I think - for the next 8 months - Apple will make everything bigger - bigger glowing orbs, bigger secondary click menus; like in iPhoto, in full screen mode, the share buttons are very spaced out and large!

tkermit
Nov 11, 2010, 06:22 PM
As far as I can see, the Leopard Sneak Peek site at the beginning of 2007 advertised as main features of the OS update basically:

- Time Machine
- Mail 3
- iChat (video backdrops / ichat theatre)
- Spaces
- Dashboard improvements
- Spotlight for Leopard
- iCal for Leopard
- Accessibility
- 64bit-ness
- Core Animation

What "big" end-user features did they ship and advertise in October 2007 in addition to that?

- transparent menu bar
- shiny dock
- Stacks
- Quick Look
- improved Coverflow Finder


Draw your own conclusions…

Personally I'm always excited about the little things that are added or changed to improve the everyday usability of the OS.

jbg232
Nov 11, 2010, 08:57 PM
As far as I can see, the Leopard Sneak Peek site at the beginning of 2007 advertised as main features of the OS update basically:

- Time Machine
- Mail 3
- iChat (video backdrops / ichat theatre)
- Spaces
- Dashboard improvements
- Spotlight for Leopard
- iCal for Leopard
- Accessibility
- 64bit-ness
- Core Animation

What "big" end-user features did they ship and advertise in October 2007 in addition to that?

- transparent menu bar
- shiny dock
- Stacks
- Quick Look
- improved Coverflow Finder


Draw your own conclusions…

Personally I'm always excited about the little things that are added or changed to improve the everyday usability of the OS.

Man Leopard had some good stuff compared to Lion (so far at least)

MattInOz
Nov 11, 2010, 10:28 PM
I think Lion will be as big of an OS X update as Leopard (and cost $129 accordingly), and I bet they hold a WWDC event for Mac developers before its release next summer that will showcase the more geeky features (new Core frameworks, etc) and previously unannounced user features.

Jobs even hinted at that in an e-mail reply to a Mac developer:

"We are focusing primarily (though not exclusively) on iPhone OS this year. Maybe next year we will focus primarily on the Mac. Just the normal cycle of things. No hidden meaning here."

http://www.macstories.net/news/steve-jobs-email-apple-design-awards-wwdc-2010/



I think your right, all we've seen so far are the Themes of the update, with not a lot of detail.

There will be the standard MacBookPro event in April/May which will probably launch another feature targeted at those machines.

It's shaping up that we'll see a MacPro Campus Event end of January which would have a feature or two to talk about. What they plan for Lion Server hopefully?

Then WWDC will be the detail event more for Developers in detailed sessions with a Keynote Selling targeted at a mix of Developers and media but knowing the public is watching, as it will also launch iPhone5.

Plus the Two iOS events (Roadmap/Music) which will ignore OSX completely.
With Lion onsale around the time of Music so Steve can say how fast the take up has been at the in the update at the start of MacBookAir event.

drewyboy
Nov 19, 2010, 05:21 PM
Sometimes it frustrates me because it seems that more and more people on these forums are expecting apple to always make something revolutionary every year or two and that so many people are underwhelmed by the os's. Snow Leopard was a huge leap forward, but as a normal consumer you can't see that. It has set the foundation for a LONG time. Lion demo I honestly don't think is the place to dump all cool new features. Media doesn't care, developers do, who was at the event??? the media. Also Apple needs to have a rabbit in the hat. So as I've stated before, I'll wait till a full feature demo at WWDC w/ a GM in the hand of devs to make up my mind

Nishi100
Nov 20, 2010, 06:10 AM
As far as I can see, the Leopard Sneak Peek site at the beginning of 2007 advertised as main features of the OS update basically:

- Time Machine
- Mail 3
- iChat (video backdrops / ichat theatre)
- Spaces
- Dashboard improvements
- Spotlight for Leopard
- iCal for Leopard
- Accessibility
- 64bit-ness
- Core Animation

What "big" end-user features did they ship and advertise in October 2007 in addition to that?

- transparent menu bar
- shiny dock
- Stacks
- Quick Look
- improved Coverflow Finder


Draw your own conclusions…

Personally I'm always excited about the little things that are added or changed to improve the everyday usability of the OS.

Unless I buy a new Mac, or an "touch Mac", then I won't upgrade to 10.7, as this seems like an optimisation for touch-screens.

Lion has done:
- Mac App store
- Launchpad
- Full-screen apps
- Mission Control

I think they will, in WWDC 2011, focus on the GUI:
- More optimisation for touchscreen, bigger space between menus.
- New look
- I'm hoping for a GUI / UI clean up, especially with iTunes and iLife - consistently.
[I want the colour back, look at iTunes 10, new colourful logo, dull sidebar :(]

MattInOz
Nov 20, 2010, 07:54 PM
Unless I buy a new Mac, or an "touch Mac", then I won't upgrade to 10.7, as this seems like an optimisation for touch-screens.

Lion has done:
- Mac App store
- Launchpad
- Full-screen apps
- Mission Control

:(]

plus from the preview
-Autosave which teamed with Time machine gives you a mild document versioning.
-App parking and relaunching
plus hidden in app store as a feature there are features that in other presentation would be a feature in themselves.
-Like improved Updating.
plus Facetime will be non-beta.

So By sneak peek standards it wasn't that far off the mark on features.
Plus left a lot of interesting questions for the Technical preview to come.

Nishi100
Nov 21, 2010, 08:10 AM
plus from the preview
-Autosave which teamed with Time machine gives you a mild document versioning.

That could be a good feature.

-App parking and relaunching

I don't like that, I like to see what apps are open and what apps are closed. And doesn't 10.6 do that anyway: when you open an app (like Safari), then click the red button, when you click on the icon again then it opens instantly.

plus hidden in app store as a feature there are features that in other presentation would be a feature in themselves.

I have nothing to say but: LOL.

-Like improved Updating. Plus Facetime will be non-beta.

I can get the "Mac app Store" for 10.6.

So By sneak peek standards it wasn't that far off the mark on features.
Plus left a lot of interesting questions for the Technical preview to come.

The only features I like, so far is: nothing; I don't like the "Mac App Store" and I won't use it. I don't use FaceTime.

A feature that I may like is: App parking and "Autosave."

The "features" that I hate, so far is:
-Big menu spaces - I can see them updating more things to have the big spacing, by WWDC 2011. Why have big spacing for mouses? Why not have a switch that changes the OS between big everything to normal size everything, for the possible "touch mac"?
-Lack of colour.

I was hoping for a new GUI, but not everything with less colour. I always loved the "Mail" icons, why couldn't they have made them "flashy icons" system wide? All I can hope is that they will see the light by WWDC.

Zackmd1
Nov 21, 2010, 09:01 AM
I was hoping for a new GUI, but not everything with less colour. I always loved the "Mail" icons, why couldn't they have made them "flashy icons" system wide? All I can hope is that they will see the light by WWDC.

Apple could still add a new GUI by WWDC 11. They did that with leopard, with the new dock, stacks, and the translucent menu bar from tiger.

Nishi100
Nov 21, 2010, 11:31 AM
Apple could still add a new GUI by WWDC 11. They did that with leopard, with the new dock, stacks, and the translucent menu bar from tiger.

They *are*/ have already started to create a new GUI. Unfortunately, it's dull, boring and looks like Windows 95/98 - OK, maybe that was a bit of an overkill.

They are now limiting us with our apps:
We cannot drag and drop pictures in to mail from iPhoto, we have to make it in iPhoto - which is good if you want to make a cool looking HTML email, but if you just want to send them as attachments, with a little bit of text. Before, it was so simple, open up iPhoto, click on photo, edit at bit, drag and drop in to mail, now, to do a "normal" email, we have to find it in the finder - hard for me, as I have 5000 pics in one giant folder - not organised - I know. Just wait untill next year - you won't be able to secondary click and "Open in Finder"

mrsir2009
Nov 21, 2010, 11:39 AM
The OS isn't actually finished yet, so who knows? Steve may think up a brilliant idea a couple of days before release and the programmers will be scrambling night and day to fit it in before release time :p

lostngone
Dec 8, 2010, 02:25 AM
I think(i hope) we should see more under the hood things with Lion at WWDC. I am hoping we well see OpenGL upgrades/improvements, better support for OpenCL.

bristleworm
Dec 10, 2010, 04:09 PM
We cannot drag and drop pictures in to mail from iPhoto, we have to make it in iPhoto

I don't know which version of iPhoto you are using, but on my machine (10.6.5, iPhoto 9.1, Mail 4.4) this still works fine…

MattInOz
Dec 12, 2010, 07:57 PM
Re-watched the Back to Mac and Lion preview the other day.
Steve answers this question when he said there was another 90minutes of keynote material to show but they cut back to just the five features they did show.

Mal
Dec 12, 2010, 10:31 PM
Re-watched the Back to Mac and Lion preview the other day.
Steve answers this question when he said there was another 90minutes of keynote material to show but they cut back to just the five features they did show.

Yep, this was my take-away from that as well. They're proud of these features, but more importantly, they fit the theme of iOS advancements coming back to the Mac. There will likely be another 5-7 new features they will promote in addition to the ones they showed.

jW

Dalton63841
Dec 12, 2010, 10:43 PM
They're proud of these features, but more importantly, they fit the theme of iOS advancements coming back to the Mac.
jW

LOL This got me thinking...Perhaps they should explain a little more about the iOS-type advancements being made in Lion.

I have read SEVERAL posts on this and other sites of people thinking the Mac App Store, and the Launchpad, being used for actual iOS apps on Mac. That is just NOT the case. They are simply iOS modeled features being applied to the Mac OS for Mac applications.