Dvorak on the iMac Mini

[Vector]

Everyone's favorite columnist John Dvorak has voiced (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?guid=%7B9DE121D7-0280-42AB-92BD-C9E97BD832A8%7D&siteid=myyahoo&dist=myyahoo) his opinions on the release of the new iMac Mini.

Surprisingly he is rather nice in his article unlike the majority of his Apple related diatribes.

[jsw]

Amazingly nice for Dvorak. Aside from possible heat dissipation issues, he says:

The machine in every other sense is close to perfect.

I do believe his column must have been hacked. ;)

[MacNut]

I think he likes it.

[oingoboingo]

Everyone's favorite columnist John Dvorak has voiced (http://www.marketwatch.com/news/yhoo/story.asp?guid=%7B9DE121D7-0280-42AB-92BD-C9E97BD832A8%7D&siteid=myyahoo&dist=myyahoo) his opinions on the release of the new iMac Mini.

Surprisingly he is rather nice in his article unlike the majority of his Apple related diatribes.

Thanks for the link. I was looking forward to reading Dvorak's reaction. I have to say I'm a bit surprised. Basically, he's saying that if the Mac mini doesn't exhibit any kinds of heat or reliability problems, he'll have no problem recommending it to people, especially new users.

Has someone kidnapped the old Dvorak?

[LethalWolfe]

Okay, seriously, who is this guy and what did he do w/ Dvorak?


Lethal

[Flowbee]

Dvorak sez:

Once this unit gets into the field and passes the tests of the real world, I'll have no trouble recommending it as a machine of choice, especially to new users. And I haven't done that with an Apple product for years.

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Hell HAS frozen over.

[baby duck monge]

Dvorak sez:



:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Hell HAS frozen over.

that would certainly help with any cooling issues, though, huh? :D

[virividox]

lets just hope he doesnt take back his initial postive outlook!!

[t300]

Dvorak sez:



:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Hell HAS frozen over.

You can say THAT again! Is it April already?

[bousozoku]

I'm conservatively optimistic about it as well. I know he would never go out on a limb for anything, so that's almost a ringing endorsement.

Now, if I can go into CompUSA 6 months from now and not see a stack of boxes labeled Mac mini, I'd be happy. (After seeing the same thing with G3 iMacs and eMacs, avoiding that with Mac minis would be good.)

[solvs]

Wow...

I'm shocked. Literally, speechless. I mean, I've seen some valid criticisms... but this!?! Speechless.

[maya]

He is still under the effects of Steve's RDF. :)

[joepunk]

Interesting.

Haven't read much of his articles but what I have read he sound very positive and almost endourses the mini mac with his words.

[Mechcozmo]

I think I saw a pig fly past the window...

[apple2991]

Does anyone even still listen to this old badger? I know we don't, because, as we all know, he so frequently insults or completely misses the point on many of Mac-Heads favorite toys.

But does the mainstream media or PC consumer base as a whole still have any respect for this old man? I can't imagine liking him even if I didn't love my Mac.

And I still hate the Dvorak keyboards.

[Sir_Giggles]

Who is this Dvorak? I have been living in Steve Jobs RDF field for the last 7 years, so please enlighten me. THanks.

[rueyeet]

I actually don't see why Dvorak shouldn't be praising the Mac mini. It answers all the usual objections. Everyone said Macs were too expensive; the Mac mini is cheap. Everyone said the Cube was too little power and expandability for the price; the Mac mini is enough computer for surprisingly little money. People said that there should be a consumer-level headless Mac; now there is.

And where the Cube wasn't the right product for the right price at the right time, the miniMac is. Apple put the Cube out when people had never seen a computer that wasn't a huge tower or box. Now, with things like the Shuttle PC gaining popularity, it's not such a foreign idea--but this time, you can't get a PowerMac with better specs for less. And people know about Apple now--they know and like their iPods, and they know and hate Windows.

He's right; this is as close to perfect as Apple could possibly get, and if it works as advertised and there aren't overwhelming first-release problems and it's passably fast enough for casual gamers.....well, this is the "put up or shut up" Mac the analysts have been calling for all along.

Time will tell. Here's to keeping our fingers crossed....

[mouchoir]

Bill Palmer on his website, doesn't seem to like it at all – and he loves apple.

http://www.billpalmer.net/2005/01/apple-can-take-its-idiot-box-and-stick.html

I can kind of agree with most of what he says admittedly...

[jsw]

Well, I sort of agree with Palmer, and I think Apple should have definitely spent the $0.25 to include a couple of USB<->PS2 adapters.

But, had they done so, then I disagree with the rest. The mini would then be exchangeable with their old PC, they could get a monitor at 20 places within a mile of their house, and the included software would blow them away.

But I agree - a couple of adapters would have been a very good thing to add.

[mcgarry]

[an earlier search for "Kanellos" turned up nothing recent, so sorry if another link has been posted just recently ...]

CNET's Michael Kanellos isn't happy:
http://news.com.com/Macintosh+Its+a+Madison+Avenue+thing/2010-7354_3-5532698.html?tag=nefd.ac

[maya]

Bill Palmer on his website, doesn't seem to like it at all – and he loves apple.

http://www.billpalmer.net/2005/01/apple-can-take-its-idiot-box-and-stick.html

I can kind of agree with most of what he says admittedly...

I believe Bill Palmer is missing the point of the Mac mini. :)

[maya]

Well, I sort of agree with Palmer, and I think Apple should have definitely spent the $0.25 to include a couple of USB<->PS2 adapters.

But, had they done so, then I disagree with the rest. The mini would then be exchangeable with their old PC, they could get a monitor at 20 places within a mile of their house, and the included software would blow them away.

But I agree - a couple of adapters would have been a very good thing to add.

Vendors are already offering a FREE keyboard and mouse with the purchase of the Mac mini. No argument there. You can also get a low priced LCD. No argument there. :)

Bill Palmer is missing the point, Apple is not the only place making LCD, Keyboard and Mouse. :rolleyes:

And Other vendors are giving free stuff with it. :)

[mcgarry]

Vendors are already offering a FREE keyboard and mouse with the purchase of the Mac mini.

yes: macmall, at least, is already offering free KB and mouse (after mail-in rebate)

I do think some switchers will be surprised to not find a cheap monitor for sale in the Apple Store. But I'm not sure if they'll be a majority, or how much they'll care. It'll just probably seem odd; I don't see it as a deal-killer that they have to buy any monitor they want from another store.

[number9]

I'm pretty sure that Palmer, as well as some other people, are missing the point of the Mac mini completely. They didn't make the mini with the goal of selling Apple keyboards, mice, and Cinema displays with them. Especially with the cinema displays, the people the mini is targeting probably don't need or want a $1700+ display. The idea, which I'm sure someone has pointed out already, is that people who already have an entire Windows PC, or an older Mac, and who may have been contemplating switching due to an experience with the iPod or just their experiences with Window's problems, can easily and cheaply swap out the box and use the majority of the peripherals that they already own. The target audience isn't generally going to be someone who is happy with what they have, but they want to inexpensively make the switch to OS X and the iLife suite, and a freedom from the viruses and spy/ad ware that have plagued Windows increasingly over the last couple years.

It also provides a way for current Mac users to either upgrade an older Mac (like my parents beige G3) or to inexpensively add to the Mac they already have. One good example of this is with my family. My sister is going off to college next year, and wants a mac (I have a G4 iMac) and my parents really don't want to spend a ton on her. So now that the mini is out, they can spend $500 on a more than adequate computer for my sister (and most other normal computer users), and just use the monitor and keyboard/mouse that we already have for one of our two older macs.

[vollspacken]

John, is that you???

maybe Steve got him kidnapped and put Phil in his place ;)

seriously: this one time I agree with him, this one time!!!

vSpacken

[emw]

They didn't make the mini with the goal of selling Apple keyboards, mice, and Cinema displays with them. So true. The Apple website even shows the mini with a PC keyboard and mouse, and a non-ACD.

[LethalWolfe]

Damned if you do damned if you don't.

Before MWSF '05: "How can Apple be so stupid and not have a low-end computer w/o a monitor?!"
After MWSF '05: "How can Apple be so stupid and have a low-end computer w/o a monitor?!"

Not that I think the Mac Mini is perfect, but cripes... Apple could release a G5 PowerMac that comes fully loaded, w/2 30" Cinema Displays, all of Apple's software pre-installed for only $799 and some people would still complain that you have to pay shipping.

It's like yesterday I heard someone say, about the Shuffle, "1gig isn't a lot of space." If you need more space buy a Mini or an iPod, you moron.

It's like geez people. You complain 'cause there aren't enough options so you get more options then complain 'cause all the options are different. It's like people expect Apple to release one uber-product that includes everything everybody wants, does everything everybody wants at a price everybody can afford.


Lethal

[radio893fm]

I believe Bill Palmer is missing the point of the Mac mini. :)

Sorry Maya... you are the one missing the point... to be completely honest is not a crime... the mac mini is a rip off

[Counterfit]

Sorry Maya... you are the one missing the point... to be completely honest is not a crime... the mac mini is a rip off It's a rip off? How in the hell is it a rip off? Because Gateway has a computer for $499 (after rebate) with monitor? Need I remind you that it's a GATEWAY? You're getting a mac for $500, that's a damned steal

[Lord Blackadder]

Damned if you do damned if you don't.

Before MWSF '05: "How can Apple be so stupid and not have a low-end computer w/o a monitor?!"
After MWSF '05: "How can Apple be so stupid and have a low-end computer w/o a monitor?!"



So, So true.

And this is the time of year when you see tons of newly registered users slamming the MR site with some variation of "the new product is crap, it is overpriced/underspecced/ugly/heavy/too big/too small" etc. etc. Talk about people speaking out of the wrong end.

After which Apple sells loads (ahem, c.f. iPod Mini and others).

Oh, and to be on-topic for a second, Dvorak is a pretentious twit, and his opinion is a matter of supreme indifference to me. Still, this is unusually nice for him. :confused:

[zelmo]

Dvorak - The troll peaks out from under the bridge. Who knew you had it in you?

Palmer - Must admit that the scenario he paints is going to happen on occasion.

Clearly, the Mac mini is not for everyone. But it'll be popular with a lot of people, and it'll get people into the Apple Store to look at more than the iPod line-up. I mean, OS X, iLife, and Appleworks is a great software package, and you get a decent computer for only $200 more.

Personally, I'm responsible for the 23 Macs in our prepress department. I can't wait for a few to go up so I can get a couple of these mini's in here. They're more than sufficient for our needs, and a heckuva lot cheaper than the single processor 1.8GHz PowerMac G5.

[stcanard]

And this is the time of year when you see tons of newly registered users slamming the MR site with some variation of "the new product is crap, it is overpriced/underspecced/ugly/heavy/too big/too small" etc. etc. Talk about people speaking out of the wrong end.

Tell me about it, I guess some people really do get a kick out of mindless trolling (a good troll is something to behold, but the general quality these days is sadly lacking).

My prediction: the iPod shuffle and Mac Mini will be as much of a disappointment as the iPod Mini and the G5 iMacs were.

[maya]

Sorry Maya... you are the one missing the point... to be completely honest is not a crime... the mac mini is a rip off

Sure there was another product by another company 10 years ago, however that is technology for you.

You would not say that Palm ripped off Apple's Newton.

M$ ripped off Mac OS, etc.... you get the point.

In this industry if its 10 years that is an eternity alone. Sure I never said it was a new concept then again in this industry very little is. :)

[maya]

It's a rip off? How in the hell is it a rip off? Because Gateway has a computer for $499 (after rebate) with monitor? Need I remind you that it's a GATEWAY? You're getting a mac for $500, that's a damned steal


Individual posting before you has forgotten about good old x86 and PPC machines. :)

If Dell copied Gateway yes that is copying on the same x86 base. However there is no competitor for PPC at present. :)

Though the whole computer in a small box is not new either it has been done 10 years back by another company. Why did people not state the same for the Cube. :)

[MattG]

Wow...if this guy's been won over, there's hope for pretty much anyone :)

[Inspector Lee]

On occasion, I read the diatribes of Dvorak and "Turdott" right before I go to the gym because it gets the blood up. Much more natural than a coffee, soda, powerbar or line of toot.

[spins]

I'm a lifetime Windows/PC user. I have experimented with Mandrake and Redhat because of desperation to get off Windows. The Mac has always been a little expensive from a hardware perspective; however, it has always been about the software. To me, it always seemed to be too much of a price to pay, to simply ditch wintels. Therefore, I view the Mac Mini as a hedge - not too much of an investment to jump outside of the matrix. It's an experiment, if you will. One I think I am going to enjoy. If not, it will be a huge bust for Apple, since I am a target customer.

However, after reading both the blogger and the reporter, I may delay my decision for about a month or so. Because I want to do DV, it's only a matter of time before I go Mac anyway...

[dejo]

Damned if you do damned if you don't.

Before MWSF '05: "How can Apple be so stupid and not have a low-end computer w/o a monitor?!"
After MWSF '05: "How can Apple be so stupid and have a low-end computer w/o a monitor?!"

What's even worse is that some people don't want to pay extra for what they perceive to be a crappy, single-button mouse that's they're just going to throw in a drawer and replace with the mouse they like anyways and others complain they are getting ripped off if a mouse isn't bundled. There's just no pleasing everyone. I'm glad Apple has taken this bold move that doesn't seem like what you'd expect them to do.

[3Memos]

Vendors are already offering a FREE keyboard and mouse with the purchase of the Mac mini. No argument there. You can also get a low priced LCD. No argument there. :)

Bill Palmer is missing the point, Apple is not the only place making LCD, Keyboard and Mouse. :rolleyes:

And Other vendors are giving free stuff with it. :)

PC keyboards are pretty inexpensive. You can find some generic ones for about $5. As for mice, some vendors give them away with a mousepad when you buy promotional games and what not. Apple is wise in offering a low-cost Mac that gets people hooked on using OSX.

[bousozoku]

What's even worse is that some people don't want to pay extra for what they perceive to be a crappy, single-button mouse that's they're just going to throw in a drawer and replace with the mouse they like anyways and others complain they are getting ripped off if a mouse isn't bundled. There's just no pleasing everyone. I'm glad Apple has taken this bold move that doesn't seem like what you'd expect them to do.

True. When I was buying my Blue and White machine, I picked up a three button scroll mouse before I left the store. I've never used it or the optical Pro Mouse (which came with my QuickSilver) except for diagnostic purposes.

I like the fact that you save money on the two because I'm pleased with my Logitech equipment.

It's not nearly as bad as the days when Apple sold the Quadra line without a keyboard and the Extended Keyboard II was $159 but they included the mouse then.

I think they've done the right thing with the packaging, except for the user-inaccessible RAM. It's a great little machine.

[coolsoldier]

Wow. For once I agree with Dvorak!

I do wonder, though -- if they are marketing these things to work with PC users' existing keyboards, how does that work with a mac in terms of modifier keys? How many PC converts will be hopelessly searching their PC keyboards for a command key?

[G4scott]

Does anyone even still listen to this old badger? I know we don't, because, as we all know, he so frequently insults or completely misses the point on many of Mac-Heads favorite toys.

Maybe this is a sign that Apple did something right. If Dvorak understands the point of the mini, maybe simple PC users will too.

As far as Palmer, he focuses on one bad scenario, and blows it WAY out of proportion. I mean, think about it, if I wanted to save money on my computer, but still get a Mac, would I buy the Apple display, keyboard, or mouse? Heck no. I'd go buy the $30 keyboard/mouse combo, and the $100 CRT Blue Light Special.

If Apple were to put that stuff into the package, you'd have a $1600 computer, which costs $300 more than the cheapest iMac, which already has a screen, keyboard and mouse.

Palmer needs to realize that Apple did the smart thing, by not providing the parts of the system that they can't sell cheaply. If Apple were to sell an Apple branded $100 CRT, they'd be selling them at a loss, and investors would wonder what the heck Apple was doing.

Lets face it, the Mini's aren't all going to be bought at Apple stores. People are going to see them online, or in a CompUSA, where they will have more of a choice with what monitor and keyboard/mouse to get. Apple's stuff doesn't always fit in with everybody's lifestyle, or paycheck, so by only selling the computer, they're allowing people to buy the things they want, not what Apple tells them to buy. This, if you ask me, makes it more comfortable for new users coming to the Mac from the PC world. Besides, if they're coming from a world of Microsoft, understanding what you need for the Mini can't be harder than using the computer they already have.

[pinto32]

The Mac mini is exactly what was needed: its got plenty of power (for a consumer machine), and is priced so low that there is no excuse for someone NOT to buu it.

As far as them not including a keyboard/mouse, I think it is a good idea. While I would like to see them included for my purposes, it is a good way to keep the price down. Most Windows people dont like the one-button mouse anyway, so the more-privey among us will see it as a deal: not being forced to pay for something I dont want anyway.

As long as Apple doesnt try to hide the fact that the keyboard/mouse aren't included, this is gonna work great.
The only thing I would say is they REALLY should include a couple of PS/2 adapters....someone else made a very good case for that already...

Now I'm off to get my girlfriend to sell her Compaq and get a Mac mini!

[pinto32]

One other thing...now, more than ever, is the time for the "Mac evangelizing" that we are all so famous for....

In addition to my normal pitches, I am going to be going to labs around my college campus and putting up the Mac mini's homepage for the next user to see.

[asphalt-proof]

I actually don't see why Dvorak shouldn't be praising the Mac mini. It answers all the usual objections. Everyone said Macs were too expensive; the Mac mini is cheap. Everyone said the Cube was too little power and expandability for the price; the Mac mini is enough computer for surprisingly little money. People said that there should be a consumer-level headless Mac; now there is.

And where the Cube wasn't the right product for the right price at the right time, the miniMac is. Apple put the Cube out when people had never seen a computer that wasn't a huge tower or box. Now, with things like the Shuttle PC gaining popularity, it's not such a foreign idea--but this time, you can't get a PowerMac with better specs for less. And people know about Apple now--they know and like their iPods, and they know and hate Windows.

He's right; this is as close to perfect as Apple could possibly get, and if it works as advertised and there aren't overwhelming first-release problems and it's passably fast enough for casual gamers.....well, this is the "put up or shut up" Mac the analysts have been calling for all along.

Time will tell. Here's to keeping our fingers crossed....


Part of the difference between the Macmini and the Cube was the price. If I remember correctly, the CUbe was outrageously expensive. I'm thinking $3000+ but I may be thinking of something else. Its one thing to pay sub $500 prices on a expansion limited computer another to spend

I think that Dvorak is so hip to this because he has been harping for Apple to create a cheap mac (oh and switch to the X86 chipset) for the past... forever. I think that he secretly surfs Mac orentied sites the way some people surf porn sites. Lots of heavy breathing, tissue in hand, and furtive glances towards the door to make sure nobocy walks in on him.

[mouchoir]

I believe Bill Palmer is missing the point of the Mac mini. :)

I don't think he's missing the point at all.

He's just concerned potential switchers will miss the point, and then spread their 'missed point' to all the friends, leading the mini to go the way of the cube.

This product will have to be really well advertised to do well.

And is damn expensive if you max out the ram, add bluetooth and a wireless card. Around £900

[coolsoldier]

And is damn expensive if you max out the ram, add bluetooth and a wireless card. Around £900

Every product is expensive if you max out the RAM. And for day-to-day personal-user activities it isn't necessary. I use the iLife and MS Office suites on my iBook with the factory 256mb RAM, and the performance is just fine.

[radio893fm]

Ohhh well... let's come back to this thread in a year... we'll see.

My guess: Apple will have to lower the price on this baby to U$399 for the high end model... then it makes sense, so we can add a nice display... who wants to attach this beauty to an ugly beige U$100 CRT?

Me? I am ok with my G5 and my Thinkpad for now. And my wife can browse the internet and use Office with a U$499 (monitor, keyboard, mouse included, 512mb, wireless) Dell...

[3Memos]

How about Apple selling a Mac mini at $399. No RAM included, and no warranty. Or would that be against federal law, to not include warranty support? So at $399, I could crack open the case myself, play around with upgrading at my own risk, and Apple wouldn't be liable for support if I broke it. Sounds good to me. :p

[clayj]

I ordered a Mac mini on Tuesday, about 2 hours after they were announced. Before I tell you why I did this, let me tell you what I already have here in my home office:

2 Sony VAIO desktop PCs (3.4 GHz, 3.2 GHz)
2 Sony LCD monitors (23", 15") multimonitored to the desktop PCs
USB KVVM (dual monitor) switch box
USB Microsoft wireless keyboard and mouse
Microsoft wireless 802.11b/g router
2 Sony VAIO notebook PCs (2.2 GHz, 850 MHz)
and a whole RAFT of other PC gear behind the scenes

My desktop is VERY clean, with no visible wires ANYWHERE.

I've been interested in messing around with a Mac for a while, but there are some problems with that: First, iMacs are right out, because I don't want ANOTHER monitor... for the same reason, eMacs are right out. Second, I don't want to spend a ton of money to just be able to play with a Mac, so I'm not gonna buy a G5 Mac (as nice as they are... Apple's designs are top-notch).

The Mac mini is PERFECT for a PC power user like myself who wants to dip his toes into the Mac swimming pool... I'll be able to hook it into my existing monitor, keyboard, and mouse (all linked through a switch box), and its presence on my desk will be minimal (practically invisible). I'll always be a PC/Windows person, but this at least lets me see what working with a Mac would be like.

The Apple mantra of "Switch" needs to be expanded to "Switch or at least dabble". Mac mini allows us PC users to dabble, for a quite reasonable price.

[mactastic]

I ordered a Mac mini on Tuesday, about 2 hours after they were announced. Before I tell you why I did this, let me tell you what I already have here in my home office:

2 Sony VAIO desktop PCs (3.4 GHz, 3.2 GHz)
2 Sony LCD monitors (23", 15") multimonitored to the desktop PCs
USB KVVM (dual monitor) switch box
USB Microsoft wireless keyboard and mouse
Microsoft wireless 802.11b/g router
2 Sony VAIO notebook PCs (2.2 GHz, 850 MHz)
and a whole RAFT of other PC gear behind the scenes

My desktop is VERY clean, with no visible wires ANYWHERE.

I've been interested in messing around with a Mac for a while, but there are some problems with that: First, iMacs are right out, because I don't want ANOTHER monitor... for the same reason, eMacs are right out. Second, I don't want to spend a ton of money to just be able to play with a Mac, so I'm not gonna buy a G5 Mac (as nice as they are... Apple's designs are top-notch).

The Mac mini is PERFECT for a PC power user like myself who wants to dip his toes into the Mac swimming pool... I'll be able to hook it into my existing monitor, keyboard, and mouse (all linked through a switch box), and its presence on my desk will be minimal (practically invisible). I'll always be a PC/Windows person, but this at least lets me see what working with a Mac would be like.

The Apple mantra of "Switch" needs to be expanded to "Switch or at least dabble". Mac mini allows us PC users to dabble, for a quite reasonable price.

Paint a crosshairs on yourself, you are the bullseye for the mac mini. Us mac people are in the target zone, but you're dead center of what they were aiming at.

[clayj]

Paint a crosshairs on yourself, you are the bullseye for the mac mini. Us mac people are in the target zone, but you're dead center of what they were aiming at.

To be sure. I'm NEVER* going to "Switch", but at least this way Apple picks up a user (one of many, I'm sure). It'll be interesting to play with the Mac mini, and the relative lack of HD space (just ONE of my PCs has 750 GB of disk space, and the others all have large HDs) and total inability to expand the machine too much will keep it in "hobby" status. Like I said, it'll be fun.

Now, if only Apple would add WMA support to the iPod, I *might* consider getting one.

* I know, I know. Never say never. But I like my PCs way too much to ever switch to the Mac platform.

[MSmilor]

In this case Dvorak is on the mark. Heat issues may be a problem which is why I am personally waiting for the rev 2 (I figure September time frame).

I have a rev 1 B&W and upgrading the processor is now off the list of potential upgrades. With the Mac Mini, I get a desktop computer more or less equivalent to the 1.2 GHz Ibook I just purchased and for home use that's plenty. I already have a 17" studio monitor, USB keyboard and mouse. It's cheap people like me that are waiting as long as possible to buy a new Apple desktop that are part of the target audience.

[Les Kern]

Bill Palmer on his website, doesn't seem to like it at all – and he loves apple.
"Doesn't SEEM to?" No, he's about to suffer an infarction, and for nothing. Does he think Apple didn't get data on PC sales in the last few years? Does he think Apple has no idea what the data says on the computer experience of these users? Does he think Apple has no idea that the PRICE tag draws shoppers, like the $699.00 they happily spent for a Celeron-powered craptastic Gateway? Apple is smarter than he thinks.
This computer was MADE for PC users. Not us. Not him. But my mother-in-law. Lots of my friends. My neighbor. All casual users who are tired as hell of PC woes. It may start with the Mini, then, like was my experience, the machines became more powerful, more often.
If Apple can sell a million or two this next year, it will be considered a hit.

[solvs]

Now, if only Apple would add WMA support to the iPod, I *might* consider getting one.
Well, iTunes supports unprotected WMA. It converts it to MP3 or AAC, but it will read it. As far as protected WMA (or unconverted), I have to ask why? I mean, it may be a little better than MP3, but not much, and AAC is so much better.

And blame M$ for no Mac support for protected WMAs.

* I know, I know. Never say never. But I like my PCs way too much to ever switch to the Mac platform.
Well, no one says you have to completely switch. A lot of us still have PCs for various other things. But don't be surprised if the next computer you buy is a Mac. They can be addicting. ;)

[clayj]

Well, iTunes supports unprotected WMA. It converts it to MP3 or AAC, but it will read it. As far as protected WMA (or unconverted), I have to ask why? I mean, it may be a little better than MP3, but not much, and AAC is so much better.

And blame M$ for no Mac support for protected WMAs.

Well, no one says you have to completely switch. A lot of us still have PCs for various other things. But don't be surprised if the next computer you buy is a Mac. They can be addicting. ;)Conversion is, IMHO, totally unnecessary. This is the same reason I haven't bought one of Sony's Network Walkmans (Walkmen?)... they insist on converting music into ATRAC format. I want an HD-based player that will just let me drop my 21 GB of music files onto it WITHOUT any lengthy conversion process. And it really doesn't matter to me whether lack of WMA support on the iPod is Microsoft's fault, Apple's fault, or (more likely) some combination thereof. Plenty of other players (Rio Riot, for example) support WMA natively, so it's not that Microsoft won't license the format to anyone else.

I sincerely doubt that I'll buy another Mac after the Mac mini. I am what you would call a hardcore PC user... been using them since I got my first IBM PC XT in 1986. I've owned PCs by IBM, Tandy, Northgate, Dell, and Sony. I'm not Switching, but I will Visit. :)

[3Memos]

In this case Dvorak is on the mark. Heat issues may be a problem which is why I am personally waiting for the rev 2 (I figure September time frame).

Heat issue shouldn't be much of a problem as a hotter running G4 is present in the PowerBook line. Unless you push it really hard, it stay cool most of the time.

[stcanard]

And blame M$ for no Mac support for protected WMAs.

You're not doing any favours by spreading pure BS.

Everyone knows that Apple is perfectly free to license WMA, and Microsoft would love to have it on the iPod.

It is Apple's choice not to license WMA. They could if they wanted to, they have decided not to.

I agree with the choice, but trying to blame it on Microsoft just sounds bitter.

[Mechcozmo]

I sincerely doubt that I'll buy another Mac after the Mac mini. I am what you would call a hardcore PC user... been using them since I got my first IBM PC XT in 1986. I've owned PCs by IBM, Tandy, Northgate, Dell, and Sony. I'm not Switching, but I will Visit. :)

You know what they say... They come to visit and end up staying longer than that.

Oh wait, that's in-laws. :p

In any case, you might just like it a lot. Once you get really intimate with the OS, you can do anything you want to with it.

[hob]

Pattersons articled made my neck hurt. I was physically shaking my head... maybe it's different in the UK... OK, SOME people are like this* but on the whole I don't think many people are gonna be too annoyed by the fact they have to walk, oh a coupla steps to another store to pick up a monitor. Big deal. Apple don't seem to stock a massive amount of Video-cameras. If I was a SERIOUS video producer I sure wouldn't buy them from Apple. (i do film production)

One thing he did say that I don't think many people have considered - connecting a mac to a windows-designed usb keyboard MAY be a little confusing, though I'm sure they've already thought of it and written instructions. My brothers MS bluetooth keyboard worked great with my Powerbook but it took me a coupla seconds to work out what button did what (and I'm not the target market (i.e. dumb) for this product)

Hob

*I was in the Apple Store regent street and a woman was getting particularly aerated because apple don't sell any straight 4-port hub/routers. Even when the guy gave her directions to about 2 dozen decent stores (in nearby techcentric Tottenham Court Road) that would help her. She just was do pissed she couldn't buy EVERYTHING in one store. Some people are too spoilt for choice.

[Counterfit]

You're not doing any favours by spreading pure BS.

Everyone knows that Apple is perfectly free to license WMA, and Microsoft would love to have it on the iPod.

It is Apple's choice not to license WMA. They could if they wanted to, they have decided not to.

I agree with the choice, but trying to blame it on Microsoft just sounds bitter. Apple doesn't have to license it for Microsoft to put out a player that runs on OS X and supports protected WMA files. ;)

[solvs]

Apple doesn't have to license it for Microsoft to put out a player that runs on OS X and supports protected WMA files. ;)
Exactly. iPod, maybe. But why would they? Plus, it actually is Microsoft's fault there is no decoding for protected WMA on Macs. I suppose Apple could license Fairplay, but that's a whole other issue. At least it works on PCs, but I guess it would kinda have to.

And why would you have WMAs? I've had several PCs and I (nor anybody I know, even hardcore Wintel users) have any WMAs. I guess it's all about choice, and if you want them for whatever reason, you are more than welcome to buy a competitor. Maybe if someday the iPod's marketshare drops, they can add support for WMAs if they want, but for now most of us will stick with MP3s (and the occasional AAC).

I mean, it's fine if you have WMAs, I just don't understand why anyone would.

[dermeister]

You know what makes this Bill Palmer an idiot?

The Mac Mini comes is a tiny box

How are customers going to think it comes with a keyboard and/mouse? The box can barely fit a computer.

Oh this makes his story retarded too: the salesman in his story won't say "no we don't have cheaper than the $999 20inch", he'll say "yeah the monitor isle is that way".

This guy's far-fetched story has two fundamental flaws that make it essential impossible from unfolding in real-life. He can take his stupid melodrama where the sun don't shine.

[duklaprague]

Bill Palmer on his website, doesn't seem to like it at all – and he loves apple.

http://www.billpalmer.net/2005/01/apple-can-take-its-idiot-box-and-stick.html

I can kind of agree with most of what he says admittedly...

nah. not convinced. the "market" is pretty clear. the switcher in the shop doesn't have to buy an apple display, one can be picked up anywhere for far less. offering a G4 iMac for a lot less than a G4 iMac 6 months ago.

and people should be smart enough to know its USB mice and keyboards. which are cheap enough to buy if you need to.

and look how "pick upable" the thing is - for not much more than the price of an iPod.

£339 for panther, iLife 05 and a computer? its a steal.

the cube was altogether different - it looked great, but that was about it.

the mini has a lot going for it, there seems to be a real buzz about it and can see it doing really well.

Iain

[Palad1]

* I know, I know. Never say never. But I like my PCs way too much to ever switch to the Mac platform.

Well

I'd rather have my b**s ripped-off, deep fried and then served to me on a plate than use a Macintosh. I just love my PC.


I don't really feel comfortable in the kitchen anymore...

[stcanard]

nah. not convinced. the "market" is pretty clear. the switcher in the shop doesn't have to buy an apple display, one can be picked up anywhere for far less.

I'm hoping the salespeople will be smart enough to push a $120 KVM on them. Then you use your existing monitor/keyboard/mouse, don't lose desk space, and keep the safety blanket.

Since I'm seeing a 2 port KVM figured prominently on Apple's site, this seems to be the direction.

[sushi]

I'm not Switching, but I will Visit. :)
Good to hear!

I believe the the Mac mini is for folks like yourself who want to experiment, and possibly delve deeper into the Mac side as time goes one depending on your experience.

Sushi

[mfacey]

I'm pretty sure that Palmer, as well as some other people, are missing the point of the Mac mini completely. They didn't make the mini with the goal of selling Apple keyboards, mice, and Cinema displays with them. Especially with the cinema displays, the people the mini is targeting probably don't need or want a $1700+ display. The idea, which I'm sure someone has pointed out already, is that people who already have an entire Windows PC, or an older Mac, and who may have been contemplating switching due to an experience with the iPod or just their experiences with Window's problems, can easily and cheaply swap out the box and use the majority of the peripherals that they already own. The target audience isn't generally going to be someone who is happy with what they have, but they want to inexpensively make the switch to OS X and the iLife suite, and a freedom from the viruses and spy/ad ware that have plagued Windows increasingly over the last couple years.

It also provides a way for current Mac users to either upgrade an older Mac (like my parents beige G3) or to inexpensively add to the Mac they already have. One good example of this is with my family. My sister is going off to college next year, and wants a mac (I have a G4 iMac) and my parents really don't want to spend a ton on her. So now that the mini is out, they can spend $500 on a more than adequate computer for my sister (and most other normal computer users), and just use the monitor and keyboard/mouse that we already have for one of our two older macs.


I agree that he seems to be exaggerating somewhat. However, there is one argument that I agree with. That's the one about there only being 2 usb ports. That really wasn't a very clever move by Apple. Where do you plug in your printer without a usb hub? If you were considering buying a macmini and ended up all the extra you'd have to buy:
LCD monitor (17" seems fairly standard now) @ a regular store. $250
keyboard and mouse: free if you keep your own. otherwise say $50
usb hub $20
Suddenly your bargain $500 mac sets you back $820. Sure its a bargain compared to an imac. But dell is offering pc's at $600 after shipping and you don't have to shop around for 3rd party products. That's 25% savings. I think i know what an uninformed pc user would do!

[stcanard]

LCD monitor (17" seems fairly standard now) @ a regular store. $250
keyboard and mouse: free if you keep your own. otherwise say $50
usb hub $20

KVM -- $125
Printer shared off PC -- free ("hey, cool I can use shared printers! Gotta tell my friends that does work")

And you still have a USB port free.

[dongmin]

nah. not convinced. the "market" is pretty clear. the switcher in the shop doesn't have to buy an apple display, one can be picked up anywhere for far less. offering a G4 iMac for a lot less than a G4 iMac 6 months ago.

and people should be smart enough to know its USB mice and keyboards. which are cheap enough to buy if you need to.

and look how "pick upable" the thing is - for not much more than the price of an iPod.

£339 for panther, iLife 05 and a computer? its a steal.

the cube was altogether different - it looked great, but that was about it.

the mini has a lot going for it, there seems to be a real buzz about it and can see it doing really well.

IainAlthough I have my gripes with the mini, this Bill Palmer guy loses all credibility when he puts the Mini and the Cube in the same sentence. Other than the small form factor (the Mini is actually about a third the size of the Cube), there is ABSOLUTELY no comparison. Apple was a different company back when it made the Cube. They could care less about the low end. But now, with the success of the ipod and ipod mini, Apple has learned a lesson or two. It's possible to live in the low end and make money and have the stock go through the roof and still put out a good product.

It's clear that the Mini is a repackaged iBook: that explains the 4200 RPM drive, only two USB ports, etc. Apple's game plan was pretty simple: take their most popular product (the iBook), strip away everything nonessential (display, keyboard, trackpad, and battery), fold the remaining body on itself to create a smaller footprint, and voila, you have the Mac mini. Whatever shortcomings you see in the Mini are the shortcomings of the iBook.

Why did they do this? Well, they knew that most consumer-level users are happy with the feature set and performance of the iBook so it was a logical starting point. AND if they recycle an existing product, they're saving a ton of money on R&D and manufacturing. Clearly, Apple was aiming for the lowest price point they knew how. This repackaged iBook minus the peripherals was the only way for Apple to meet the sub-$500 price point.

One last thing: don't underestimate the impact of the tiny form factor. Apple could've easily taken the eMac base and made a new pizza box, but that would've had ZERO sex appeal. For better or worse, Apple sells a lot of computers based on the sex appeal. For brute performance, people can always go to PCs. They needed a design that turned heads and created a media buzz, and that was with the ultra-small form factor of the Mini.