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MacBytes
Jan 12, 2005, 06:52 PM
Category: Opinion/Interviews
Link: Foolish Opinion of the Mac Mini (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20050112195227)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

Photorun
Jan 12, 2005, 07:14 PM
Wow, this guy is a complete and total asshat!

hcuar
Jan 12, 2005, 07:24 PM
Man... I guess this guy is a major PeeCee troll. It makes my blood pressure rise. Reminds me of a guy at work that mentioned buying a Mac Mini to install Linux on. Need I say more?

Bob Knob
Jan 12, 2005, 07:28 PM
I didn't bother reading past the first section:

"Apple's (Nasdaq: AAPL) stock took a bit of a dive yesterday following CEO Steve Jobs' blockbuster presentation at Macworld. The reason was simple. Months of hyperactive speculation have priced the stock at an extreme premium."

This "analyst" doesn't know crap. Apple stock has ALWAYS gone down after a MacWorld, it has nothing to do with what is announced at the Keynote. Do people actually make any money on the market by following Fool.com?

Superhob
Jan 12, 2005, 07:29 PM
Absolutely pathetic. I can't believe the number of so-called analysts who are bad mouthing apple today. I've seen some on Bloomberg, on CNBC, even on Fox news. What the hell is wrong with these people?

It seems to me these foolish morons would be unhappy regardless of what apple comes out with because it's never going to be as cheap as a POS dell. Whoop Dee Doo! I just went to dell's web site, configered the lowest possibly priced system without a monitor and crappy integrated video (a video card with dedicated Vram was not even an option) and it came out to $428.00.

I really think these "fools" are unhappy because they did not get in on the stock when it was in the low twenties and now they're in deep regret and denial.

Anyway, I just wanted to vent after reading and hearing from all these moronic apple-haters.

Nermal
Jan 12, 2005, 08:03 PM
Man... I guess this guy is a major PeeCee troll. It makes my blood pressure rise. Reminds me of a guy at work that mentioned buying a Mac Mini to install Linux on. Need I say more?

It's better than buying a Dell to install Linux on. Once he has a Mac, I'm sure he would eventually give OS X a go.

zoozx
Jan 12, 2005, 08:08 PM
Actually I kind of agree with the article.
I'm not impressed with the new hardware and think these may be history in a year or 2. Similar to the cubes life/death.

jmo after using Mac's professionally since early 80's.

stcanard
Jan 12, 2005, 08:11 PM
Actually I kind of agree with the article.
I'm not impressed with the new hardware and think these may be history in a year or 2. Similar to the cubes life/death.

What's so funny is how many people said that about the iPod.
and the iPod-mini.
and the new iMac.

Keynoteuser
Jan 12, 2005, 08:14 PM
They tore the mini apart and at least one has had to publicly appologize for it once the mini took off. The store here in SF can't keep those things in stock.

By the way, once you've set up the Shuffle on YOUR mac, you can use it as a memory stick on any other mac and it won't try to boot iTunes. Very nice touch.

crazedbytheheat
Jan 12, 2005, 08:23 PM
The author may end up being right about the stock, but I thought the overall tone of the article made him sound like a Mac hater. No professional should use a line like "Mac fans who've been sipping Steve's Kool-Aid" in an article talking about business. And slamming SJ because he supposedly waffled and now thinks the time is right for a flash based is just asinine. Perhaps he's never heard of marketing (not really, this site spams mercilessly if you sign up for an email).

Maybe he should have tuned in for the earnings report before declaring Apple a failure. This is almost as bad as the News.com article. I swear Microsoft pays these guys to start slamming Apple after every new announcement.

Oh well, gotta go check the status of my iLife '05 and iPod shuffle order. Guess I'd also better not tell the guys at work who are going to go buy an iMac mini (first Mac they've ever owned).

CrackedButter
Jan 12, 2005, 08:26 PM
The guy is a fool.

Steven1621
Jan 12, 2005, 08:29 PM
the usual deal from a pc skeptic. once anyone goes to compare the cost of a similarly equiped mac to a pc, it becomes fully apparent that they don't know what they are talking about.

CrackedButter
Jan 12, 2005, 08:33 PM
The author may end up being right about the stock, but I thought the overall tone of the article made him sound like a Mac hater. No professional should use a line like "Mac fans who've been sipping Steve's Kool-Aid" in an article talking about business. And slamming SJ because he supposedly waffled and now thinks the time is right for a flash based is just asinine. Perhaps he's never heard of marketing (not really, this site spams mercilessly if you sign up for an email).

Maybe he should have tuned in for the earnings report before declaring Apple a failure. This is almost as bad as the News.com article. I swear Microsoft pays these guys to start slamming Apple after every new announcement.

Oh well, gotta go check the status of my iLife '05 and iPod shuffle order. Guess I'd also better not tell the guys at work who are going to go buy an iMac mini (first Mac they've ever owned).

I don't think MS gets that level of stupidity for any price... they get it for free.

I use to believe they did pay for a few shills but not any more, they do it for more whacked reasons.

Stella
Jan 12, 2005, 10:23 PM
I'm getting fed up of people like this. Bitter or what.

They complain about the lack of keyboard, mouse and display: Apple are going after switchers who already have those. Why do they want to buy another? They don't get it.

Looking on the apple discussion boards regarding Mac Mini - some windows users really believe they require a Apple Display ; they don't think their $50 'Windows' monitor will work.

Windows users, really... take my breath away.

jkaz
Jan 12, 2005, 10:28 PM
who doesn't have an extra monitor around?

and speaking of monitors, aren't all crt monitors basically a tv?

couldn't you plug a tv into a computer and do the same thing as with a monitor?

dejo
Jan 12, 2005, 10:39 PM
"Apple's (Nasdaq: AAPL) stock took a bit of a dive yesterday following CEO Steve Jobs' blockbuster presentation at Macworld. The reason was simple.

Yeah, very simple. The rest of the market took a bit of a dive, too. Talk about jumping to conclusions. And we're supposed to take financial advice from this guy? Puh-lease.

nagromme
Jan 12, 2005, 10:48 PM
and speaking of monitors, aren't all crt monitors basically a tv?

Similar technology... but TV's are MUCH lower quality. That's why computer displays cost more than TVs. They have a lower scan/refresh rate, they have interlace flicker, they have lower dot pitch, and they have analog input with a very blurry picture. You don't notice because you're used to it--and because text on TV credits is always large. But plug in a computer to a TV (which the Mac Mini CAN do) and you'll find interface text very difficult to read, unless you use 640x480--which will still be annoyingly blurry.

It's fun for slideshows, games, iTunes visualizer... but not for general productivity.

iceDogg
Jan 12, 2005, 10:50 PM
Where was that guy getting his prices from cause I could get a mac mini running for $605. I found a 17in Flat CRT(kind of an oxymoron) at Circuit City (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/ESA-Monitor--E17CRT1-/sem/rpsm/oid/95496/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do) for $80 and a wireless keyboard and mouse at NewEgg.com (http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=23-126-168&depa=1)
for $25. I went to dell's website to see this amazingly affordable PC and to get it up to par with the mini's specs it would cost $657. Plus it had integrated graphics which on that model is none upgradable.

boardquik
Jan 12, 2005, 11:11 PM
This guy has no clue what he's talking about. For one thing i bet he's never been close to a mac b4, what an ass! :mad:

3Memos
Jan 12, 2005, 11:23 PM
From Fool:

Fun facts for Apple shareholders: Apple diluted your stock 6.6% last year, and nearly a third of the cash the firm took in came not from operations, but from exercise of stock options. Given that people generally only pay to exercise an option when they're pretty sure they can sell the underlying stock at a premium, how do you think that changes the bottom line? For a clue, check the footnotes in the 10-K for the pro forma reconciliation of the result of the firm's generous options plan. For 2003, the $0.19 profit turns into a $0.27 loss. For 2004, the $0.71 profit shrinks down to $0.45. Oh my. Think that's just a little bookkeeping thing? Think again.

This paragraph from the article worries me. The Motley Fool is highly regarded by the investment community, so I'm assuming what they wrote here was not on a lark. Is it possible Apple cooked the books? I'd hate to see our fanaticism blind any objective scrutiny of these stock options.

NEOFEX
Jan 12, 2005, 11:50 PM
Please someone with some sense find this idiot's email address so we can bomb him.

Oh, and apple stock is trading at 73 in after hours.

Looks like you are a complete and total dick.

outerspaceapple
Jan 13, 2005, 12:20 AM
Ok, I emailed him with this response:




Hi Seth,

I'm a Mac zealot, and just had to respond to your article. First off, I really enjoyed reading it except for the fact that you made a few faulty claims. First, lets take a look at the tech specs of the new low end Mac Mini:

1.25GHz PowerPC G4
256MB of PC2700 DDR SDRAM
ATI Radeon 9200 w/ 32MB of DDR SDRAM and AGP 4X support
40GB hard drive
Slot-loading Combo Drive (DVD player, CD Player, and CD Burner)
Firewire 400 port
2 USB 2.0 port
10/100 BASE-T Ethernet
56K V.92 modem
Headphone/audio line out
90 days of tech support
$499

Now lets take a look at the low end Dell:
2.40GHz Intel Celeron
512MB shared DDR SDRAM
40GB Hard Drive
Integrated Intel Extreme Graphics Card (we'll talk about RAM and performance later)
USB 1.1 (not stated, but I believe this is the case)
17" Monitor
Keyboard & Mouse
90 days of tech support
$399 after two $50 rebates

Just at its face value, what are we looking at here. The dell is $100 cheaper, comes with a 512MB RAM, monitor, mouse, and keyboard. Those are the only things it has going for it. Now what's against it? Well lets start at the top. First off, as you'll notice it does not ship with Firewire 400 and is not even an upgrade option on Dell's website! It also doesn't ship with USB 2.0. Now, you can obtain both of these in a single after-market PCI card for around $50, so now we're up to $449.

Now lets talk about the "Integrated Intel Extreme Graphics" card. This puppy is so weak, it steals memory from the main system, and does it with the help of the computer's celeron, in order to make your graphics run. This decreases performance drastically; in fact these chips are so bad that you can bearly run any of today's 3D games. Even Halo (a Microsoft game) runs on this Mac Mini (and very well to might I add), but you'd be happy just to get The Sims to run on this Dell hunk of junk.

Also the processor itself. Have you ever read performance reviews of the celeron? It's been nicknamed the "Cripple Chip" mostly because a ton of the core features commonly found on other chips have simply been discarded to make this thing as cheap as possible. Take the GHz of this computer and cut it in half - thats roughly the performance you'd get as compared to the Mac Mini (before the dell gets infested with malware of course).

Next lets move on to the RAM issue. The Dells got us beaten here since that Intel Integrated graphics card steals so much ram they installed 512MB already. This will bring the price of our Mac Mini up to $574. Next lets add a monitor. I chose the 17" one made by "Famous Brand" since thats about the quality you'd be getting anyways with dell, and that puts us up another $70. Any USB keyboard and mouse? $10 easy. Now we're up to $654 for Mac Mini, and only $449 for the Dell.

Next, the optical drive. The Mac Mini comes with a CD burner, and a DVD player. In order to upgrade the Dell to match our ever-so-cute little Mac, we need to spend $79 AND WE END UP WITH 2 DRIVES, not a slick combo like our Mac. The score? $649 Mac vs. $528

Now lets talk about software and total cost of ownership. Your Mac will never get a virus, never popup adware, spyware; any type of malware. Soooo, what can we do to protect ourselves from these pesky problems with our Dell? How 'bout adding 2 and 1/2 years of virus protection since most people wait that long between upgrade cycles. Slap on another $138 for either a Norton antivirus, or McAfee subscription for a total of $666 now.

Starting to sound a bit more even now? So there we go - $649 Mac that takes up about as much space on your desk (note, not under your desk) as an external CD burner vs. a $666 Dell that probably won't see the light of day ever, since you'll have it generally hidden under your desk with the rest of your trash.This isn't even counting the fact that you'd have to upgrade the graphics card to match the Mac Mini which would cost another $59 and have us up to $725!

In the end when you buy a dell, you really are buying a 666 computer. It will takeover your life, and be about as lucky as you in Vegas.


~~Eddy~~



Sound ok? this guy was really full of himself (and his ignorance).

fabsgwu
Jan 13, 2005, 01:20 AM
That's why the stock crashed today... oh wait, it soared to a new high, that's right I forgot. Thank you fool.com, you're so insightful.


I didn't bother reading past the first section:

"Apple's (Nasdaq: AAPL) stock took a bit of a dive yesterday following CEO Steve Jobs' blockbuster presentation at Macworld. The reason was simple. Months of hyperactive speculation have priced the stock at an extreme premium."

This "analyst" doesn't know crap. Apple stock has ALWAYS gone down after a MacWorld, it has nothing to do with what is announced at the Keynote. Do people actually make any money on the market by following Fool.com?

fabsgwu
Jan 13, 2005, 01:37 AM
Displays last FAR LONGER than computers. It's a fact. That's why some criticize Apple for the iMac - The LCD will happily outlive the rest of the machine. If you bought a PC 3 years ago, with a nice LCD display, and your keyboard is still in good condition, and you have a 5 button mouse that you've fallen in love with, you're pretty much set for the Mac Mini.

After three years of XP, your computer has most likely been host to hundreds of viruses, had (a lot of) spyware, and been proven insecure almost weekly.

If you skimped when you bought the PC and got the "bargain PC," the components and processor were probably of very poor quality (the stock Dell etc. parts are very cheaply made). By now, you may be desperate for a change. Each iteration of XP demands more and more processing power, if you got the low end three years ago, you're probably suffering now. Now there's a true alternative to get you into the stability, functionality, and beauty of Mac OS and its bundled software without ditching your gear (make sure to pick up a USB Hub, tho)...

P.S. Schools are gonna love the Mac Mini. Many already have the displays and keyboards, and with a sweet education discount, they will be able to quickly and easily deploy a fleet of Macs

3Memos
Jan 13, 2005, 01:47 AM
If you skimped when you bought the PC and got the "bargain PC," the components and processor were probably of very poor quality (the stock Dell etc. parts are very cheaply made). By now, you may be desperate for a change. Each iteration of XP demands more and more processing power, if you got the low end three years ago, you're probably suffering now.

Thats one of the arguments PC users like to make about PCs. -- That it is upgradeable. But in my experience, the moment you want to upgrade the processor, you end having to upgrade both the MB and the chipset, and probably the RAM as well. You really end up with a new computer. Apple realizes this, but PC users like to make a point of it.

macidiot
Jan 13, 2005, 02:23 AM
This paragraph from the article worries me. The Motley Fool is highly regarded by the investment community, so I'm assuming what they wrote here was not on a lark. Is it possible Apple cooked the books? I'd hate to see our fanaticism blind any objective scrutiny of these stock options.

Actually, they are not highly regarded at all. They are the worst about investing advice. They couch their advice as being impartial and "for the little guy." But as they are trying to sell their products and services, especially their stock picking skills, they are like every other brokerage or mutual fund. Worse in fact, since they claim to be impartial. Shills.

They did not cook the books. Please. They did not expense employee stock options. Perfectly legal at the time. In fact the information is there, you just have to calculate it yourself. Where do you think this troll Seth got his information? I'm actually for accounting for options. However, I buy Apple's previous position: that since there was no GAAP for expensing options, they chose not to do it.

Don't take this personally, but I'm tired of ill-informed, uneasiness regarding Apple's stock performance. Things like "cook the books," mentions of Enron, etc. are absurd. Apple stock has gone up because they are making more money from moving more product. They sold 9 million iPods in 2004 that weren't sold in 2003. Unless they are lying about ipod sales and secretly storing millions of ipods in a warehouse, trust the numbers. Additionally, Apple's senior financial management is highly respected. And finally, companies "cook the books" to make estimates. Not to blow past them by 21 cents.

jvaska
Jan 13, 2005, 04:14 AM
Regarding Apple stock he's probably right. However, it's clear that a new bubble is beginning to emerge on the horizon. This time, Apple is at the vanguard of this new happening - it's not only Apple. It will correct itself when the time is right.

The author clearly has a beef with Apple - good for him. But coming from "analysts" I can understand this perception since Apple has fallen short before. History repeating itself - let's hope not.

I keep thinking back to the day that the iPod mini was released. I remember telling people that no way in hell would it ever sell - too expensive and didn't give people what they really wanted. It seemed to be outside of the general convention. I was flat wrong (and I'm quite happy I was).

I feel the same way about Apple's newest products - they are outside the normal convention (at this time). However, given all the information they have earned from selling iPods I think Apple is getting some very good demographic info about just who is buying. I can be a doubter, but I think Apple will prove my own thoughts wrong (and I hope they do).

All in all, I think this guy is just trying to raise a red flag to stock prices and at the same time being an ass about the new products because as an analyst he's telling people "don't buy, it's hyped right now (but so are some other companies too)". It doesn't bother me one bit...expect to take some blows while you're on top and Apple is clearly in a driving position right now.

My two cents...

PS: In this year I will both buy an iPod shuffle and a new mac of some sort (owning two already).

Chip NoVaMac
Jan 13, 2005, 06:16 AM
Actually I kind of agree with the article.
I'm not impressed with the new hardware and think these may be history in a year or 2. Similar to the cubes life/death.

jmo after using Mac's professionally since early 80's.

Some may be less than impressed with the Mac mini. In the end it will the "real" consumers that will decide. Like with the iPod, many said it was too expensive, too "closed" in typical Apple fashion. But it sparked something in the consumer.

And so what if the Mac mini survives only two years in the market? Apple is sure to come up with something else that will spark the consumers imagination.

Also this will help consumers in the PC world. For I think that you may find Dell and others coming up with their own barebones boxes at the $299/$300 level by the end of this year. Finally the idea of affordable computers for most everyone will be become a closer reality.

zoozx
Jan 13, 2005, 08:11 AM
What's so funny is how many people said that about the iPod.
and the iPod-mini.
and the new iMac.

Many did, I didn't, those items made sense.

bluedevil97
Jan 13, 2005, 09:00 AM
>>Most of the dozens of competitors allow you to see your tunes, and many have sophisticated interfaces for using and modifying playlists. They also work with Microsoft's Media Player.

>>Yes, yes, I know. "Boo! Hiss!" But the fact is, better interoperability with the world's dominant OS would help Apple make more money. I can't be the only Windows user out there who didn't get an iPod because he didn't want to reconvert his entire collection of music files and get locked into iTunes as his only online music source.

Hmm. .last I checked, iTunes worked great with Windows. There is no problem working with the World's most dominant OS. . .unless he is saying te windows media player is part of the OS - an argument that even Microsoft wouldn't want him to make, as it goes back to their monopoly lawsuits. Windows Media player is (at least I thought) portrayed as a seperate program, that just happens to be made by Microsoft, not part of the OS.

Phobophobia
Jan 13, 2005, 09:49 AM
Also this will help consumers in the PC world. For I think that you may find Dell and others coming up with their own barebones boxes at the $299/$300 level by the end of this year. Finally the idea of affordable computers for most everyone will be become a closer reality.

It is not computers themselves that people have a hard time affording.

dsharits
Jan 13, 2005, 09:58 AM
a $666 Dell that probably won't see the light of day ever, since you'll have it generally hidden under your desk with the rest of your trash

That line is just priceless! I'll have to use that one on my PC friends. Let us know if he writes back.

Daniel

nagromme
Jan 13, 2005, 04:09 PM
Seth is the rare commentator who CAN admit when he's wrong:

http://www.fool.com/news/commentary/2005/commentary05011301.htm

"As recently as yesterday, I suggested that the firm might not live up to its skyrocketing stock price. You can read the full argument here. Then you can ignore most of it. Apple smacked the ball out of the park with yesterday's earnings release, and let me be the first to say that I was way wrong about a few things."