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Shrek
Aug 29, 2002, 04:14 PM
Dear Apple:

I heard something in the news somewhere that Apple is pressuring it's manufacturers to cut production costs which could lead to price cuts across it's Macintosh line of computers. This would be great for Apple, but I don't think that it's enough. Apple, you all have something like a 30% profit margin right now, but that's kind or ridiculous, wouldn't you think? I think that it needs to come down to about a 10% profit margin. Besides, if you are really going to lure in those PC users, you're going to have make prices more attractive.

I'm proposing that if those manufacturers can cut production costs by at least 20%, and that Apple cuts their profit margin down to 10%, then that would mean a 40% decrease in prices across the line. That would be a very smart move for Apple! :D

Also, the PowerMac line should be marketed as workstations since that clearly fits the definition of what they are and prevents confusion for consumers. And you all should introduce a high-end iMac line (or a totally new high-end desktop machine), too, as right now you have nothing between consumer desktops and low-end workstations.

Don't think that the PC vs. Mac war has been lost, Apple. I think with the right marketing strategy and even better products and services, it can be won back! ;)

GO APPLE!!! :D

Sincerely,



Jason Hughes
Potential Apple Customer

Sound reasonable?

vniow
Aug 29, 2002, 04:23 PM
10%?!!
Not until they get a helluvalot more market share. It's like a chicken and egg thing. Apple can't get more market share unless they cut prices on their machines and they can't cut the prices on their machines without more marketshare. I say somewhere around 20% would be more reasonable. They need to market the hell out of these machines and do it right so they can deal with a reduced profit margin. :)

arn
Aug 29, 2002, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Shrek


I heard something in the news somewhere that Apple is pressuring it's manufacturers to cut production costs which could lead to price cuts across it's Macintosh line of computers.




Link/Reference?



This would be great for Apple, but I don't think that it's enough. Apple, you all have something like a 30% profit margin right now, but that's kind or ridiculous, wouldn't you think?



How do you know what their profit margins are? I think they are closer to 20%, but if you want to write an email like this, you should know.



I'm proposing that if those manufacturers can cut production costs by at least 20%, and that Apple cuts their profit margin by 20%, then that would mean a 40% decrease in prices across the line. That would be a very smart move for Apple!


Um... math doesn't work like this... this is going to get your email into the trash immediately (well, after they're done laughing)

Think about this for a little while... once you figure it out, rewrite the email.

arn

Shrek
Aug 29, 2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by edvniow
10%?!!
Not until they get a helluvalot more market share. It's like a chicken and egg thing. Apple can't get more market share unless they cut prices on their machines and they can't cut the prices on their machines without more marketshare. I say somewhere around 20% would be more reasonable. They need to market the hell out of these machines and do it right so they can deal with a reduced profit margin. :)

No, Apple needs to focus more on getting more market share right now more than ever! Market share comes first, profits come next. As market share rises, their will be more and more profits. Plain and simple. I know how it sounds, but "you've got to take risks in order to get ahead." ;)

strider42
Aug 29, 2002, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Shrek


Sound reasonable?

apple has actually already lowered its profit margin a few points, but that letters is asking for apple to dump 66% of its profits. are you nuts. Apple remains in existence because of its high profit margins, with out them, they went out of business5 years ago. They simply don't have enough market share to compete on price. When an apple rep recently said that they were willing to give up a few points of profit margin to gain market share, he went on to say they would never give up a large part of their margin just for market share. A point or two at most.

People are crazy. time to take a basic high school economics class.

Shrek
Aug 29, 2002, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by arn


Link/Reference?

Don't have one. Can't remember where I saw it, sorry.



How do you know what their profit margins are? I think they are closer to 20%, but if you want to write an email like this, you should know.

I've heard it from several people here on MacRumors.


Um... math doesn't work like this... this is going to get your email into the trash immediately.

Think about this for a little while... once you figure it out, rewrite the email

arn

Sorry about that typo. I fixed it and I am resubmitting.

krossfyter
Aug 29, 2002, 04:34 PM
dont resubmit untill you get all the holes out of it. get refrences etc. etc. like arn said.

Shrek
Aug 29, 2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by strider42

. . .but that letters is asking for apple to dump 66% of its profits.

66%!!! :eek:

How do you figure?!

Shrek
Aug 29, 2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by krossfyter
dont resubmit untill you get all the holes out of it. get refrences etc. etc. like arn said.

too late.

posterboy81
Aug 29, 2002, 04:41 PM
Actually, Apple's margins last time I listened to their quarterly report was somewhere around 28%. Now 28% does seem a little high doesn't it? Other big manufacturers (HP, Dell, Gateway) are making next to nothing on their hardware, so why doesn't Apple drop their margins and sell more computers? I mean what could they possibly be using all that money for? It's not like they have Huge R&D costs that none of the other big manufacturers don't have, and they don't have development costs for some great digital lifestyle apps that come free with every computer they sell do they?

I mean come on!

[/sarcasm]

--PB

arn
Aug 29, 2002, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Shrek


Sorry about that typo. I fixed it and I am resubmitting.

It wasn't a typo... it was incorrect math logic.

Here's your corrected statement:

I'm proposing that if those manufacturers can cut production costs by at least 20%, and that Apple cuts their profit margin down to 10%, then that would mean a 40% decrease in prices across the line. That would be a very smart move for Apple!


You're ignoring a lot of things... a simplified look:

fixed costs + parts + profit margin + dealer margin = Cost of an iMac

arn

krossfyter
Aug 29, 2002, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by posterboy81
Actually, Apple's margins last time I listened to their quarterly report was somewhere around 28%.
[/sarcasm]

--PB




source please?:D

arn
Aug 29, 2002, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Shrek


66%!!! :eek:

How do you figure?!

Shrek, not to be mean - but I don't think you totally understand percentages.

Let's say their profit margin is 30%.

So, on a $1000 Wholesale machine, they make $300 profit. (30% margin)
10% margin on a $1000 machine is $100. (10% margin)

$100 vs $300

$100 is 33% of $300.

arn

Shrek
Aug 29, 2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by arn

$100 is 66% of $300.


illogical math. look at your numbers. $100 is 33% of $300. $200 is 66% of $300. :p

arn
Aug 29, 2002, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by Shrek


illogical math. look at your numbers. $100 is 33% of $300. $200 is 66% of $300. :p

you caught me before the edit. :)

right - so 66% of profits gone

Here's an exercise:

A + B = C

Let's say I take 20% off A and 20% off B.

How much % off C in the end?

arn

Shrek
Aug 29, 2002, 04:54 PM
They'd still make money. Like someone already said, HP, Dell, and Gateway have profit margins next to nothing. Now if only I could find a source for this. :rolleyes:

edit: I get the idea, arn.

Shrek
Aug 29, 2002, 04:57 PM
My only philosophy is this: countless numbers of PC users complain that Macs have prices that are too high, and that's why they don't buy them. So something has to be done. ;) :p

arn
Aug 29, 2002, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Shrek
[B]They'd still make money. Like someone already said, HP, Dell, and Gateway have profit margins next to nothing. Now if only I could find a source for this. :rolleyes:


How much did Dell and Gateway spend on developing an Operating System last quarter? Industrial Design?

arn

Shrek
Aug 29, 2002, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by arn


How much did Dell and Gateway spend on developing an Operating System last quarter? Industrial Design?

arn

Dell and Gateway sell so many more computers than Apple, so they make a lot of money anyway despite their low profit margins.

quanta
Aug 29, 2002, 05:09 PM
i love Apple, yes i do,
even though they're
slower and more expensive too
if Apple were to rot,
i'm sure i'd be blue,

Consider this, i'm sure that it's true,
The profit they make should make something new.
For instance DDR RAM, by the end of 2002.
Or the iFlop, a computer housed in a shoe.

if it weren't for our small, tight knit crew,
who understand what it is that an OS can do,
Apple would be hurled straight into
a conservative economy's large pile of poo.

Boo hoo.

Thank god for Bondi blue!
It saved Apple, who knew
industrial design enhances the view,
so out the door the imacs flew.

But now the threat's brand new,
and PCs can do the work only Macs used to do—
faster and at a lower cost too!
So take stock Steve Jobs it's time to review:

Microsoft sucks, but they saved the day
And behemoth Intel stands in the way,
And now you're being laughed at by a Gateway?
It's time to act, and act right away.

"Something better is coming, it's soon on it's way
a new plastic Gizmo to brighten your day!"
the next generation is here! we all say,
and rush for our Visas, ready to pay!

So he stands there on stage, sober and sage,
with a look on his face sure to engage...
the geeky, bespeckled, crazy creatives turn to the page...
what is this greatest new something ever kept in a cage?

The curtain is raised, and they gasp, "Oh my God!"
and the popcorn of echoes as they start to applaud,
that smile then from Steve, a wink and a nod...
the newest new greatness is a 20gig iPod.

All of the baiting and the dreaming and waiting,
fails to live up to the needs we're debating.
Our expectations left lying in this pile of feces—
at least the new iPod is compatible with PCs.

We find it hard to believe, despite hustle and jive,
each year carries on, and our hope's still alive...
If you're going to charge more, if you want Apple to thrive,
i think it's quite clear we need a G5.

arn
Aug 29, 2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by Shrek


Dell and Gateway sell so many more computers than Apple, so they make a lot of money anyway despite their low profit margins.

Acutally, gateway sold about 2x as many comptuers as Apple in 2001.

So, if Apple could reach gateway's unit sales, and dropped their profit margins from 30% to 10%, they would make less money then they do now.

arn

posterboy81
Aug 29, 2002, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by krossfyter

source please?:D

http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/apr/17earnings.html

excerpt from above link:
CUPERTINO, California—April 17, 2002—Apple® today announced financial results for its fiscal 2002 second quarter ended March 30, 2002. For the quarter, the Company posted a net profit of $40 million, or $.11 per diluted share. These results compare to a net profit of $43 million, or $.12 per diluted share, in the year ago quarter. Revenues for the quarter were $1.5 billion, up 4 percent from the year ago quarter, and gross margins were 27.4 percent, compared to 26.9 percent in the year ago quarter. International sales accounted for 45 percent of the quarter’s revenues.


Keep in mind this is also their overall margin, not the margin on individual machines. This includes software sales (FCP, DVD SP, etc) and Hardware sales.

As a comparison, you can look at teh Q2 results from HP at this address: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/investor/financials/quarters/2002/q2.htm

excerpt from hp link
Sequentially, pro forma revenue declined 7%, while gross margin increased from 26.9% to 28.7%.


Apple's margins aren't really that high, it's just that companies like HP make it in the Enterprise and Business Markets where prices are way way too high, while Apple makes it on Pro Machines and software. HPs margins on their desktops and laptops is ridiculously low, Apple's is higher but like I was trying to point out before, that is because they have huge R&D costs that companies like HP do not have (what, you think they just pulled Rendezvous and Quartz Extreme out of their butts?) as well as development costs for all of the software they include with their machines (iMovie, iTunes, iDVD, iPhoto to name a few).

You want a cheaper machine, I know so do I. I think that they could probably release one too but it would have to come sans digital lifestyle, and they it would be like a Mac without a soul or purpose.

--PB

[EDIT: P.S., these numbers are all from Q2 this year. I think that Q3 results should be out shortly, if they aren't allready.]

Shrek
Aug 29, 2002, 05:17 PM
Even if Apple didn't make that much money with their low market share, I think they could still make some great new hardware and software products. Dell had to start out small, and in it's earlier days it had a machine that was $1,000 less than a similar machine made by it's number one competitor, IBM. Sure it had a smaller market share and a smaller profit margin, yet it still managed to grow and make it BIG in the industry. ;)

jelloshotsrule
Aug 29, 2002, 05:18 PM
no offense, but it doesn't seem like you've thought through any of these complaint emails. we all would like to see the prices come down so that we can afford bigger and better.

but then the car analogy comes up. bmw's cost more than vw's. it's better. they make more of a margin, they sell fewer cars.

same thing here...

Shrek
Aug 29, 2002, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by posterboy81
Apple's margins aren't really that high, it's just that companies like HP make it in the Enterprise and Business Markets where prices are way way too high, while Apple makes it on Pro Machines and software. HPs margins on their desktops and laptops is ridiculously low, Apple's is higher but like I was trying to point out before, that is because they have huge R&D costs that companies like HP do not have (what, you think they just pulled Rendezvous and Quartz Extreme out of their butts?) as well as development costs for all of the software they include with their machines (iMovie, iTunes, iDVD, iPhoto to name a few).

Posterboy, can you provide some links that tell us what Dell and Gateway's profit margins are, please.

posterboy81
Aug 29, 2002, 05:25 PM
I'd also like to jump in here and say that I am tired of the freaking Apple vs. Dell comparison. Dell sells computers with less margin and still makes moeny because they are a factory direct dealer, a wholesaler, an OEM build your own shop, whatever you want to call them. They havae no distribution costs, they have no retail markup, they have no development costs.
Apple is a retailer, they have all of these added costs. It makes the comparison a little unfair for lack of a better word. Why not compare Apple to Sony (whom Apple considers the real competition anyway) or HP or at least another retailer?

--PB

Shrek
Aug 29, 2002, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
. . .they sell fewer cars.

same thing here.

Of course, and that's the problem. In order to make more money Apple needs to lower prices to increase their market share; that will spread word-of-mouth advertising (the most effective advertising of them all), and they will make more money in the long run. ;)

oldMac
Aug 29, 2002, 05:30 PM
-----------------------------------------------------
Apple (Quarter Ending June 29, 2002)

http://biz.yahoo.com/fin/l/a/aapl.html
-----------------------------------------------------
Revenue: $1.4 Billion
Cost of Revenue: $1.04 Billion
Gross Profit: $391 Million
Profit Margin: ~ 28% Gross Margin

R&D Costs: $106 Million
S&A Expense: $272 Million
(Selling General And Administrative Expenses)

Net Income*: $32 Million
After taxes, other income/ expenses, non recurring events, etc

-----------------------------------------------------
Gateway (Quarter Ending March 31, 2002)

http://biz.yahoo.com/fin/l/g/gtw.html
-----------------------------------------------------
Revenue: $992 Million
Cost of Revenue: $867 Million
Gross Profit: $124 Million
Profit Margin: ~ 12.5% Gross Margin

R&D Costs: $0
S&A Expense: $338 Million
(Selling General And Administrative Expenses)

Net Income*: ($126 Million)

*After taxes, other income/ expenses, non recurring events, etc

-----------------------------------------------------
Dell (Quarter Ending May 3, 2002)

http://biz.yahoo.com/fin/l/d/dell.html
-----------------------------------------------------
Revenue: $8.01 Billion
Cost of Revenue: $6.68 Billion
Gross Profit: $1.4 Billion
Profit Margin: ~ 17.5% Gross Margin

R&D Costs: $110 Million
S&A Expense: $691 Million
(Selling General And Administrative Expenses)

Net Income*: $457 Million

*After taxes, other income/ expenses, non recurring events, etc

arn
Aug 29, 2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Shrek


Posterboy, can you provide some links that tell us what Dell and Gateway's profit margins are, please.

I'm not sure what this will prove.

I bet I can find a company selling PC's with lower profit marings than Dell... and yet far fewer sales.

Lower margins doesn't automatically equal market dominance. If so, why doesn't gateway just drop their prices even more? Then, they will sell more computers than Dell.... right?

arn

quanta
Aug 29, 2002, 05:38 PM
You want Porsche at a Pinto price? Dream on.

You want the best? Pony up. Apple is doing just fine as a business which is designed to do what it does best: make money. There aren't many of us who would willingly convert to WindowsXP. On a sarcastic note:

"I'm switching to a Gateway because it just looked so attractive sitting there in that cow-skin box. And besides, Macs only come with one mouse button... it's like I'm getting two for the price of one!"

By the way, out of all of the computers which are still usable which my family has acquired over the years, mine is the longest in the tooth. i got it in 1996 and i can run 9.2 with no problem. It's not even a G3. It's not as tight on the corners in P-shop, but it doesn't crash, it doesn't whine, and it does me just fine. i really would love to see the Pentium MMX (which came out the same time as my computer was being replaced by the line of beige G3's) take Windows ME for a stroll around the block while i watch the varnish dry on the cabinet i started sanding when it set out for its walk. To boot, we have a Mac SE with a 9 inch monochrome built in monitor and a 20 Meg HD which still kicks butt and even went so far as to be my girlfriend's full time word processor for school last year.

The point is that you get what you pay for. If you invest in a quality machine, in a few years it won't be the fastest, but it will definitely be steadfast. Besides, a mac is like a dog... if you treat it well it will reward you in ways you never knew a computer could. It's your best friend, a companion for life. It's not something you salvage parts from when you fry the damned motherboard because some penny pinching jack-ass decided that they could save ten cents by using an imitation architecture, or you burn the CPU cause you overclocked it to get the Quake 3 frame rate up to 60fps. A mac is to be respected and treated with care, to be understood and even coddled. Take it from me, i have to baby 45 of them every day, and i've seen the devlish little tricks they play on people who don't "know." They can smell fear, and in conjunction with a printer, can smell a deadline too. But now you know. And knowing is half the battle.

So just go ahead and drop the "potential" from potential mac buyer
and become a man.

A Mac Man.

You'll never have to see a .dll file again.
And that in and of itself is worth it.

posterboy81
Aug 29, 2002, 05:39 PM
You can find Dell's Q2 results at this address: http://www.dell.com/us/en/gen/corporate/press/pressoffice_us_2002-05-16-aus-001.htm

You will have to scroll down quite a ways to find the gross margin, but it as of may 3rd this year:
Gross margin 17.2%

For another comparison, here is Compaq (pre merger, Q2):
http://www.compaq.com/newsroom/pr/2002/pr2002041801.html

excerpt from Compaq Q2 financial press release:
First quarter gross margin, as a percentage of revenue, was flat sequentially at 20.6 percent,


I will find Gateway later, but if you really wanted you could just go to Gateway.com and search up investor information and find it yourself too.

--PB

arn
Aug 29, 2002, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Shrek

Of course, and that's the problem. In order to make more money Apple needs to lower prices to increase their market share; that will spread word-of-mouth advertising (the most effective advertising of them all), and they will make more money in the long run. ;)

Ah... a simple concept... lower profits, and sell more machines... but wait! Gateway's margins are lower than Dells'. Yet Dell out-sells them... obviously there are more variables involved shrek.

arn

quanta
Aug 29, 2002, 05:43 PM
i think Shrek should go and net 32 million and then come back and tell us what would work and what wouldn't.

oldMac
Aug 29, 2002, 05:45 PM
As you can see, Apples margins are currently keeping them "floating" in the economic downturn. They have kept revenue flat over the past 4 quarters and managed $176 million in profits. (Between $32 million and $66 million per quarter.)

Gateway, on the other hand, has had 4 straight quarters of diminishing revenues (ie, they're probably losing a lot of marketshare). They have lost about $656 million in that timeframe.

Dell is maintaining a higher profit margin and kicking butt in the PC market.

quanta
Aug 29, 2002, 05:46 PM
This is my forty first post and it's only the thirty fifth post that was part of a pointless discussion speculating on how someone some day could get their mac cheaper.

quanta
Aug 29, 2002, 05:47 PM
but it's still highly entertaining.

quanta
Aug 29, 2002, 05:50 PM
Hey Arn, are you a network type of guru? i have a coupla ?s that i outlined in the Help section under "Network for 30+ macs" or something like that. If you have some time in the next few days, could you take a look?

thx.

oldMac
Aug 29, 2002, 06:06 PM
Assuming that Apple had a 17% gross margin (similar to Dell) and didn't manage to sell any more computers than they sell today, they would have lost $107 Million last quarter.

Assuming that Apple had a 17% gross margin and increased revenues by 10% (unlikely), then they would have lost $153 Million last quarter.

(Yes, this is an over-simplification. It assumes that Apple would not spend any money to sell 10% more machines.)

It's definitely a chicken and egg problem. Right now, Apple's strategy seems to be to "wait out the poor economic climate" while investing their margin in R&D.

Shrek
Aug 29, 2002, 06:20 PM
What exactly is R&D by the way? What does it stand for?

posterboy81
Aug 29, 2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Shrek
What exactly is R&D by the way? What does it stand for?

Research and Development, IE all the time and money invested in Apple developing cool new technologies such as FireWire, SCSI, Quartz Extreme, Rendezvous, etc.

--PB

vniow
Aug 29, 2002, 06:25 PM
Research & Development. One of the reasons Apple needs that 30% profit margin right now. :)

posterboy81
Aug 29, 2002, 06:31 PM
If you are still interested, Gateway's Q2 report for 2002:
http://gateway.com/about/ir/qtrly/20020718.html

excerpt from Gateway.com:
POWAY, Calif. (July 18, 2002) - Gateway, Inc. (NYSE: GTW) today reported second quarter 2002 revenue of $1 billion and a net loss attributable to common stockholders of $61 million, or $0.19 per share.


and their margin was:

Another excerpt from the same page:
Pre-Tax Loss

Gateway's gross margin for the quarter was 14.3 percent, compared to 14.1 percent in the previous quarter, which excludes first quarter special charges. This increase resulted primarily from product mix changes and cost reductions.



--PB

rainman::|:|
Aug 29, 2002, 06:49 PM
Okay, nothing personal, but anyone that doesn't know what R&D stands for (it's pretty widely used) shouldn't be talking about profit margins. That simple. Sure, I wish i could buy an iMac for $700-- and i'd like to buy a lexus for $14,999. Neither is going to happen. Lexus isn't going out of business, neither is Apple. And you know what? If a lexus cost $15 grand, it wouldn't be a luxury car anymore. And Lexus wouldn't have the resources (or the drive) to build a better, smoother-riding, more high-tech car next year.

Secondly, this thread is kinda cool, cause it's the most i've seen Arn post... :)

pnw

jelloshotsrule
Aug 29, 2002, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by quanta
You want Porsche at a Pinto price? Dream on.

You want the best? Pony up.

exactly

it's a matter of sales and margin. i'm pretty sure that apple has business folks working on the numbers and they know just a bit more than you do... sorry to say, but i agree with paul here. if you don't know what r&d is, no need to embarrass yourself by trying to tell a profitable, cult followed company what to do....

quanta
Aug 29, 2002, 07:28 PM
if anyone who is reading this thread (excepting Shrek) knows a little bit more than average about the workings of the Macintosh System and it's relationship to the HD (that's Hard Drive for the acronymically impaired) and the HD's name, please check my thread about the network issue i am having.


http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=140592#post140592

Much Thanks in Advance. And there's a cookie in it for the winner. Mmmmm.

BTW (By the way), how old are you Shrek? There might be some leniency in the degree of our scorn if the number is right....

Shrek
Aug 29, 2002, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by quanta
BTW (By the way), how old are you Shrek? There might be some leniency in the degree of our scorn if the number is right....

Too young to be true
Put two and two together my friend
And you'll be ridin' smooth

:D

quanta
Aug 30, 2002, 05:21 PM
i guess you're doing pretty good for a four-year-old....:p

i like the spirit of your letter, and with a bit of editting you should send it, but maybe just stick to supporting Apple's pressure to drive down production costs rather than asking Apple to make such a drastic change in it's profit margin.

i was also wondering....

have you seen .... the Muffin Man?

posterboy81
Aug 30, 2002, 05:32 PM
Yes, I know the Muffin Man, who lives on Drury Lane?


--PB

Shrek
Aug 30, 2002, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by quanta
have you seen .... the Muffin Man?

Quanta is missing someone. How embarrassing?! How embarrassing?!

jefhatfield
Aug 31, 2002, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by Shrek


Sound reasonable?

excellent, i could not agree more

in mba school, apple with it's high profit margin and its exclusivity, is unmatched for its financial stupidity

great innovation, but not always good business decisions

jefhatfield
Aug 31, 2002, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by paulwhannel
Okay, nothing personal, but anyone that doesn't know what R&D stands for (it's pretty widely used) shouldn't be talking about profit margins. That simple. Sure, I wish i could buy an iMac for $700-- and i'd like to buy a lexus for $14,999. Neither is going to happen. Lexus isn't going out of business, neither is Apple. And you know what? If a lexus cost $15 grand, it wouldn't be a luxury car anymore. And Lexus wouldn't have the resources (or the drive) to build a better, smoother-riding, more high-tech car next year.

Secondly, this thread is kinda cool, cause it's the most i've seen Arn post... :)

pnw

same goes with B and D, or B and B, or R and R, or D and D:p