Firewire 2 (1394b)

[arn]

While widely suspected, Firewire 2 ports were indeed designed/evaluated for the most recent PowerMac design that was released in August. This is based on an Apple design PDF which was unintentionally exposed on Apple's servers. The PDF was quickly removed.

1394b (or Firewire 2) was approved this year in March, however, due to the lag time before finalization it was not expected until late summer (http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2002/05/20020523082020.shtml) at the earliest.

For whatever reasons, Firewire 2 did not make its way into the most recent revisions. This, however, does seem to indicate that Firewire 2 will be coming soon.

[arn]

Please do not post the PDF in question.

[G4scott]

Hmm... Maybe Apple's waiting to put Firewire 2 in their computers until they release their next generation Mac... (I'm not going to call it a G5 until I'm sure :p )

[whfsdude]

hehe, quick someone send me the PDF and it will be all over Carracho :D

Well it's about time for FW 2 :-) I wonder what Apple will use it for, its faster than your hd can spin so.

[rice_web]

Well, it's good to see that it is coming along. Perhaps the announcement of the G5 isn't as impressive as everyone is hoping, so they want FireWire2 to be announced along with the G5 (or at least a new G4 with full DDR implementation).

Maybe processor clock speeds won't be seeing much of an increase for some time...

[zed]

anyone can feel free to send that pdf on over to
[removed]

if ya feel like it :cool:

[admin edit: just don't want this thread to become a "send to this email address" thread... sorry]

[whfsdude]

Originally posted by zed
anyone can feel free to send that pdf on over to
[admin edit: just don't want this thread to become a "send to this email address" thread... sorry]


if ya feel like it :cool:

lol you wake up and find a mailbox full of apple legal letters lol ;)

[exbox]

the pdf really does not show much. In the pdf, there is only one picture labled 1394b. The rest of the pdf is composed of design and circutry diagrams from various places in the powermac. All this pdf proves is that 1394b exists, and Apple has designs or working units of prototype powermacs with 1394b.

[King Cobra]

>(rice_web) Perhaps the announcement of the G5 isn't as impressive as everyone is hoping, so they want FireWire2 to be announced along with the G5 (or at least a new G4 with full DDR implementation).

I will go even further than that. Remember when the PowerMac G3 B&W cam out with Firewire? That was Jan. 1999. The iMac adopted Firewire in October. I'm thinking that the PowerMac (assuming it's a G5 we see in Jan.) will get a Firewire upgrade, followed by the iMac in late 2003 or early 2004.

[nickmcghie]

Originally posted by King Cobra
I will go even further than that. Remember when the PowerMac G3 B&W cam out with Firewire? That was Jan. 1999. The iMac adopted Firewire in October. I'm thinking that the PowerMac (assuming it's a G5 we see in Jan.) will get a Firewire upgrade, followed by the iMac in late 2003 or early 2004. [/B]


I'm not so sure Apple will wait so long to introduce 1394b in the iMac after its in the PowerMac. Remember, in 1999, FireWire was a relatively new technology with not very many products.. thus, they first introduced it into their professional machines to get it out the door so people would start developing for it. Also, FireWire was a lot more expensive to put into machines that it is now.

Now, more than 3 years later, FireWire is big and growing rapidly in popularity. Apple realizes this, and, to keep the FireWire momentum going, they will release 1394b in their entire line-up as soon as its feasible for them to do so.

[Vector]

Is that one of the pdf files that i mentioned in the thread i posted yesterday? There were several on the private server and they are no longer there.

[arn]

Originally posted by Vector
Is that one of the pdf files that i mentioned in the thread i posted yesterday? There were several on the private server and they are no longer there.

yep...

arn

[oldMac]

Heh, heh...

Maybe Apple got a little closer than they intended to the "firewire" name and that explains all that cooling power in the new G4s. :)

[Vector]

Originally posted by arn


yep...

arn

Did apple send you something or did you just take down the attachments that others put up preemptively? I kind of wish i had not posted that thread yesterday, maybe they would not have noticed that they had been leaving alot of interesting documents on a public site.

[arn]

Originally posted by Vector

Did apple send you something or did you just take down the attachments that others put up preemptively? I kind of wish i had not posted that thread yesterday, maybe they would not have noticed that they had been leaving alot of interesting documents on a public site.

it was preemptive.

arn

[yankeedoodle]

Just my 2 cents:

Since Apple is expected to come up with the XServe RAID unit (already pre-announced by master Seve himself) really soon that is said to deliver mind-blowing data throughput rates, I could imagine that Apple is going to premiere FireWire II in this device first -- probably along with a FireWire II PCI card that fits into the XServe main unit or with an updated XServe (dual 1.25 GHz) unit.

Whaddoyathink?

[tjwett]

this is a perfect example of Apple hiding technology and getting blood from a stone. the "stone" being us. the whole drip method of releasing technology blows. i know it's not just Apple but it still sucks.

[Vector]

Originally posted by yankeedoodle
Just my 2 cents:

Since Apple is expected to come up with the XServe RAID unit (already pre-announced by master Seve himself) really soon that is said to deliver mind-blowing data throughput rates, I could imagine that Apple is going to premiere FireWire II in this device first -- probably along with a FireWire II PCI card that fits into the XServe main unit or with an updated XServe (dual 1.25 GHz) unit.

Whaddoyathink?

I thought steve said something about using fibre channel connections in that when he first announced it and the xserve. Fibre channel would be sending 2gigs and not 800 megabytes like firewire 2.

[arn]

Originally posted by tjwett
this is a perfect example of Apple hiding technology and getting blood from a stone. the "stone" being us. the whole drip method of releasing technology blows. i know it's not just Apple but it still sucks.

Um.... no - it simply means it wasn't ready for reasons that you and I don't know.

arn

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by arn
Please do not post the PDF in question.

While it would NOT be appropriate to post the document here and involve MacRumours, perhaps posting it to a private site and emailing it to anyone who emails the poster might work?

Or simply post any truly relevent summary, like tech specs and feedback on negative issues to indicate how far we are from prime time.

Most people beyond idle curiosity mainly want to know a preview of comong attractions, possibly including the plug style too.

Rocketman

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by arn


it was preemptive.

arn

Wise.

We want Apple happy with you so you DO get occasional blessed leaks.

One reason for Firewire2 is a Tivo like connection and an interface for devices with optical (fiber optic) connections. Also solid state drives are still faster than even woderful hard discs and I would not be surprised with the lowering cost of memory to see a return to solid state drives. I used to have a solid state drive on my Mac+ and programs in ramdisc (only 4mb) and that thing was faster than any other conventional Mac I used till the Power PC came out.

I can only imagine what a Jagwire DP G4 machine would do with everything in ramdisc and saving processing results to a solid state drive. It would be bandwidth limited, not drive speed limited.

Rocketman

[yankeedoodle]

Originally posted by Vector


I thought steve said something about using fibre channel connections in that when he first announced it and the xserve. Fibre channel would be sending 2gigs and not 800 megabytes like firewire 2.

FW2 specifications include optical links via fibre channel... And FW2 doesn't necessarily have to be limited to 800 mbps; it could aswell run at higher bandwiths (1200? 1600? 2000?). So could it be that his Steveness is bringing us FW2 a bit late but in a really sophisticated form (2 Gigabit) and with fibre channel possibilities in form of the Xserve/RAID this fall?
:confused:

[Carl Norum]

Originally posted by yankeedoodle
FW2 specifications include optical links via fibre channel... And FW2 doesn't necessarily have to be limited to 800 mbps; it could aswell run at higher bandwiths (1200? 1600? 2000?).

The spec is public... 1394b tops out at 3.2 Gb/s. Just like FireWire has S100, S200, and S400 speeds, FW2 has 800 Mb/s, 1600 Mb/s and 3200 Mb/s speeds.

[arn]

Originally posted by Rocketman

Or simply post any truly relevent summary, like tech specs and feedback on negative issues to indicate how far we are from prime time.

Most people beyond idle curiosity mainly want to know a preview of comong attractions, possibly including the plug style too.


There is nothing of interest in the PDF to end users except that there was a Firewire 2 connector pinout in it.

arn

[King Cobra]

>(nickmcghie) I'm not so sure Apple will wait so long to introduce 1394b in the iMac after its in the PowerMac....Also, FireWire was a lot more expensive to put into machines that it is now.

True. But I also do not see many products advertised for sale using the 1394b hardware port.

>Now, more than 3 years later, FireWire is big and growing rapidly in popularity. Apple realizes this, and, to keep the FireWire momentum going, they will release 1394b in their entire line-up as soon as its feasible for them to do so.

That's also true. But Apple usually does this with their products if they feel such a hardware port/addition/whatver is necessary. (That's why you don't see the slower USB 2.0 on Macs, although it's been out for a while on consumer products, such as CD-RWs.) Also, to fit a combo drive into the Powerbook Apple had to wait for appropriate technology/lower prices before it could be added on to the Powerbook, a month after the Rev. B. DVD model came out.

[zed]

hey np arn :)

so how fast is firewire 2 supposed to be exactly?

[gotmac]

The reason Apple and no other company has released 1394.b products is that the silicon is not ready. Texas Instruments is ahead of all other chip makers but their chips are still not ready for commercial release. I would not expect to see any products until 1st or more likely 2nd quarter next year. As soon as the chips are done Apple will be ready to add them to their line up.

[DaveGee]

Originally posted by zed
hey np arn :)

so how fast is firewire 2 supposed to be exactly?

100Mb/s 200Mb/s 400Mb/s 800Mb/s 1600Mb/s and 3200Mb/s

Those are all of the official speeds that 1394b will do. Cable type and distance are what will dictate the speed you hit.

Example

Cat5e at 100 meters will do 100Mb/s
Plastic Fiber at 100 meters will do evey speed except for 3200Mb/s
Glass Fiber at 100 meters will do everything.
Standard cable we use now at 4.5 meters will do 100Mb/s 200Mb/s 400Mb/s and 800Mb/s
New cable with new connector at 4.5 meters will do 400Mb/s 800Mb/s 1600Mb/s and 3200Mb/s

I've read that the 1st rev of 1392b will not support 3200Mb/s at first but that was a written a while ago (2000 I think).

Edit....

Here is a quote from a paper (Current - June 2002) that better explains some of the speed details. From the reading it would seem 800Mb/s will be here 'NOW' and 1600Mb/s and 3200Mb/s are in the later rev's.

---------------------------------
1394b technology builds on the strengths of 1394a and adds critical new capabilities, notably; added bandwidth – to 800 Megabits/second all the way, eventually, to 3.2 Gigabits/second. It incorporates networking capabilities over distances of 100 meters over CAT-5 and plastic optical fiber. It also improves overall network efficiency. These new features have been created with 1394a compatibility in mind, while maintaining the vital architectural characteristics of plug and play (PnP), peer-to-peer connectivity, and isochronous channels. This will keep 1394 in line with bandwidth demands currently required by CE, PC and peripheral applications, and ahead of competing standards.

For a 1394 network in the home, 1394 had to enable transmission past the 4.5-meter length originally set by 1394a. This is accomplished by 1394b, which also serves a variety of home network demands and potential requirements through a set of specifications for a multitude of cables. These include unshielded twisted pair CAT-5 cable; plastic optical fiber (POF); hard polymer clad fiber (HPCF) also known as glass optical fiber (GOF); and shielded twisted pair (STP). Each cable/ interconnect type is specified for specific lengths and associated data rates.
---------------------------------

Also here is another interesting quote from that paper that details some of the bandwidth needs of different video related items.

---------------------------------
The 1394 bus in its 1394-1995 and 1394a versions provides speeds of 400 Megabits/second over distances of 4.5 meters. These performance capabilities that have led to 1394’s design into almost all high end camcorders and digital cameras, along with a long list of hard disk drives, printers, scanners, and other peripherals. Almost all new notebook PCs and many desktop versions also are now 1394-enabled. Some typical bandwidths for application are as follows: MPEG-2 for DTV requires, on average, 8 Mbps; typical IP transfer rates range between one and five Mbps; digital video in camcorders uses 25 Mbps; and high definition DTV requires approximately 20 Mbps. As a result, IEEE 1394a offers a high bandwidth network that can support many applications concurrently. North American analysts estimate that by the end of 2001, more than 60 million products worldwide were equipped with 1394. Projections now are for that number to reach 100 million – including PCs, DTVs, printers, drives and other products – by 2003.
---------------------------------



Dave

[Rocketman]

Originally posted by DaveGee


100Mb/s 200Mb/s 400Mb/s 800Mb/s 1600Mb/s and 3200Mb/s

Those are all of the official speeds that 1394b will do.

Dave

Firstly, thank you Dave for the sensational post. I understand alot of might have been cut and paste, but it was timely and answer specific.

It seems "Gigawire-tm" might be Firewire 3 or 1600Mb/s Firewire.

Firewire is 400, Firewire 2 is 800 (and does not have a comercial release name yet), so Firewire 3 at 1600 seems logical to be rumoured Gigawire-tm :)

If Firewire is going to be my in-home HDTV network one wonders how a typical family is going to retrofit old, bogus unwired homes for this without alot of plaster and drywall removal.

Rocketman

http://www.v-serv.com/-upload/avatar.jpg

[bousozoku]

I would expect that Apple is waiting for two things in order to release IEEE-1394(b):

Video products which make use of the extra speed.

A motherboard design to allow it to integrate smoothly...faster bus, faster system throughput.

[yankeedoodle]

Just a thought:

If Apple is not going to come up with 2 GBit FW (aka GigaWire), how do you think are they going to connect their RAID device to the XServe?

[arn]

Originally posted by yankeedoodle
Just a thought:

If Apple is not going to come up with 2 GBit FW (aka GigaWire), how do you think are they going to connect their RAID device to the XServe?

XRaid uses Fibre Channel

http://www.fibrechannel.com/

arn