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Hermes Monster
Nov 17, 2010, 01:54 PM
Hi

I was just wondering if anyone participated in the "contests" on this website?

I have a couple of questions...:p

Thanks



SwiftLives
Nov 17, 2010, 04:02 PM
I have not participated. Maybe it's a personal quirk, but I prefer to get paid when I spend my time conceptualizing, researching, and designing.

ezekielrage_99
Nov 17, 2010, 04:53 PM
Here we go again...

But for the record I don't work for free, neither does any self-respecting designer.

Hermes Monster
Nov 18, 2010, 01:07 AM
Thanks for the useful comments... sigh...

As a novice designer trying to build a portfolio, the site has met my needs so far and I have made some money from my short time using the service. I was hoping to discuss/ get some feedback on the process, but instead you've decided to start patronising me.

I don't recall asking if you worked for free or if you enjoyed wasting your time, but for some reason you felt this was a suitable response to my query.

If this is the wrong place to discuss the subject that's fine, please say so and I will happily let the matter move on.

opeter
Nov 18, 2010, 05:11 AM
I have not participated. Maybe it's a personal quirk, but I prefer to get paid when I spend my time conceptualizing, researching, and designing.

Thats good, but in some countrys we are happy, if we get paid, when the work is finished.

SwiftLives
Nov 18, 2010, 06:38 AM
Thanks for the useful comments... sigh...

As a novice designer trying to build a portfolio, the site has met my needs so far and I have made some money from my short time using the service. I was hoping to discuss/ get some feedback on the process, but instead you've decided to start patronising me.

I don't recall asking if you worked for free or if you enjoyed wasting your time, but for some reason you felt this was a suitable response to my query.

If this is the wrong place to discuss the subject that's fine, please say so and I will happily let the matter move on.

Okay. I can see how that came across as kind of harsh. And it was in no way meant as an attack. But I have a major problem with these crowd-sourcing websites, in that they essentially exploit free labor and, in general, you don't get paid anywhere close to market value — and a lot of young designers aren't aware of that.

There are numerous ways to build up a portfolio that won't result in you providing free work for a client. There are exercise books (which you could probably get from a library) that have faux-creative briefs in them. That's a great place to start. Beyond that, you can even donate your time to a non-profit organization and get the tax writeoff. Your portfolio doesn't need to consist of work you've done for actual living, breathing clients. It can have doodles or personal projects. Most employers are more concerned with the way you think and the way you approach a problem.

I'll try to find the name of some of those logo-exercise books in a bit.

Here's a site that better explains my position on spec work (http://www.no-spec.com/about/).

The analogy I like to use is this - you don't go to 25 different restaurants, order food, and only pay for the entrée that you like. So why should it be any different with design work?

Hermes Monster
Nov 18, 2010, 09:01 AM
Okay. I can see how that came across as kind of harsh. And it was in no way meant as an attack. But I have a major problem with these crowd-sourcing websites, in that they essentially exploit free labor and, in general, you don't get paid anywhere close to market value — and a lot of young designers aren't aware of that.

There are numerous ways to build up a portfolio that won't result in you providing free work for a client. There are exercise books (which you could probably get from a library) that have faux-creative briefs in them. That's a great place to start. Beyond that, you can even donate your time to a non-profit organization and get the tax writeoff. Your portfolio doesn't need to consist of work you've done for actual living, breathing clients. It can have doodles or personal projects. Most employers are more concerned with the way you think and the way you approach a problem.

I'll try to find the name of some of those logo-exercise books in a bit.

Here's a site that better explains my position on spec work (http://www.no-spec.com/about/).

The analogy I like to use is this - you don't go to 25 different restaurants, order food, and only pay for the entrée that you like. So why should it be any different with design work?

I appreciate you have a strong opinion on this, but at the end of the day you're making strong assumptions about people you don't know and have no idea of their background.

Me for example, I have three years of college study (and subsequant qualifications) in design and communication, but have somehow ended up working as a Infrastructure SME for a large UK bank - it pays well but I don't enjoy it. I know all about project lifecycles, I'm ITIL and PRINCE2 qualified so I know how these things work in the real world. BUT I do enjoy design work, and these websites offer an outlet for that- if I get paid then that's great, if not at least I've expressed myself and have something for my portfolio anyway...and also had some more parctise with photoshop...

I'll admit some of the designs on the sites are appauling, but some are really good.

You may feel that as a designer these sites are taking away work from you, I feel that's slightly short sighted and wonder why should your profession be excluded from the DIY culture. When you DIY at home, is that not taking work from a builder, if you mod' your car is that not taking work from a mechanic...and so on.

Thank you for your feedback and it's certainly something I'll think about, maybe you could do the same with my points?

RebootD
Nov 22, 2010, 04:47 PM
The analogy I like to use is this - you don't go to 25 different restaurants, order food, and only pay for the entrée that you like. So why should it be any different with design work?

This is a great analogy! I usually have the "You don't contract 100 carpenters to build you a home, wait for them all to be built and then decide to only pay for the one you want". If you substitute any other profession people would laugh and think you are nuts for suggesting a crowd-sourced option.

RebootD
Nov 22, 2010, 05:17 PM
You may feel that as a designer these sites are taking away work from you, I feel that's slightly short sighted and wonder why should your profession be excluded from the DIY culture. When you DIY at home, is that not taking work from a builder, if you mod' your car is that not taking work from a mechanic...and so on.

For the most part companies looking for designs via these sites have no intention on paying real money for good, professional design. Plus the only people that benefit from this model are the low-ball clients. The old expression "You get what you pay for" rings true for any profession.

As a 10yr professional the client isn't just paying for my hands to move things around a computer screen but experience, business knowledge, research into their market and being quick and accurate with my designs. This could be said of any other field but designers are commonly overlooked as a 'pair of hands to do what I can't' and that mindset needs to change and go away forever.

Thank you for your feedback and it's certainly something I'll think about, maybe you could do the same with my points?

The answer is NO. There is nothing to think about sorry.

If crowd-sourcing took over I would find a new profession without question. I could not keep a sustainable income where I only made $100 per project, and let's assume I only win 1/10 'jobs' that means to earn what I do now I'd have to submit work to over 5,000 'jobs! FIVE THOUSAND a year. If I spent an average 8hrs on a project that equates to 40,000 hours needed to make my salary goal.. too bad there are only 8,760 hours a year!

To reiterate crowd-sourcing only benefits cheap clients. Even if you are a DIY designer you are gambling with your work and the house always wins as they say in Vegas.

stainlessliquid
Nov 22, 2010, 11:26 PM
This is a great analogy! I usually have the "You don't contract 100 carpenters to build you a home, wait for them all to be built and then decide to only pay for the one you want". If you substitute any other profession people would laugh and think you are nuts for suggesting a crowd-sourced option.

How is it any different than getting a refund? If someone does shoddy work you should get your money back.

ezekielrage_99
Nov 23, 2010, 06:29 AM
How is it any different than getting a refund? If someone does shoddy work you should get your money back.

That is a little different, a refund for shoddy work is one thing getting some else to create a full product with the pretense they *might* get paid is another.

But out of experience crowdsource does nothing for a good professional design cv, you'd be better off creating a few idea and labeling "non-commercial projects" than creating designs for crowdsourced projects which have little to no commercial value long term.

The best way IMHO to build a portfolio is:
- With faux project briefs, the most boring product with an awesome execution is always a killer for a newbies CV.
- Non-profit organisation, not only are you donating a skill it's a great way to build commercial items for a CV and get exposed to numerous good contacts.
- Another good one is take a bad branding project (e.g. Gap comes to mind) and show how you'd have done it better.

@RebootD I completely agree with you, well said about crowdsourcing. One point you did miss is that crowdsourcing also enforces piracy and copyright infringement (and yes I have cleaned up a $25K crowdsource design mess before, long story..). Think about it if you're getting $100 for a logo are you really going to own a legit copy of CS5? Or both doing original work? I think not.

Hermes Monster
Nov 23, 2010, 05:06 PM
I can only speak of this site, but from my experience it's handled well. The site admins are quick to take down copied work and ban designers who do so, this along with other designers alerting of copyright infringement keeps it to a minimum.

I think of it as a job application/interview, if you're good enough youll get the gig if you're not then you haven't lost anything but time.

It's true, you do get what you pay for - that's why the projects offering $150 only get a handful of submissions (generally of low quality), while the ones for $1000+ get upwards of 500, some chaff and some very very good.

Remember, no one makes these people (me included) go on these sites and submit designs, it's our choice and we know what's involved and what the process is. It's this process that will cut the wheat from the chaff, keep "losing" and eventually you'll give up.

One final thing, to go back to the carpenter analogy, you wouldn't get 100 of them to do the work, but I would hope/assume you would get numerous quotes beforehand, then pick the best from them? Or if You were shopping online, you would google the item and find the best price - choice is king.

Other than that, we'll agree to disagree :D

designguy79
Nov 24, 2010, 10:15 AM
One final thing, to go back to the carpenter analogy, you wouldn't get 100 of them to do the work, but I would hope/assume you would get numerous quotes beforehand, then pick the best from them? Or if You were shopping online, you would google the item and find the best price - choice is king.

But... don't you have to submit a full-designed logo to enter?

When someone researches a designer, they can (and should!) look at their portfolio and ask for quote. But to ask them to do the work is, well, backwards.

The carpenter analogy isn't bad, although building a house requires a whole crew of people, lots of physical materials, and (usually) more time than a logo design.

Maybe a better example would be "would expect 100 programmers to create a custom program for you and then just pay the one who does the best?" You can tell them that "all you will be out is your time."

Maybe you don't value your time, but I sure do mine! (which is why I took 5 minutes to write this post, BTW ;) )

Good luck!

chrono1081
Nov 26, 2010, 03:38 PM
Maybe a better example would be "would expect 100 programmers to create a custom program for you and then just pay the one who does the best?" You can tell them that "all you will be out is your time."


Omg I hear things like this all the time! "Make me an iPhone app for my business and if I like it I'll pay you." um...no

To the OP: Basically what everyone is saying is that in the end you are ripping yourself off. Every industry has sites like this. Graphic design, 3D modeling, programming, photography, etc.

These sites only attract low paying clients and the designer works his/her ass off and still gets screwed in the end. $100 - $150 is absolutely nothing for the time and effort it takes in graphic design. Graphic design is HUGELY under-appreciated and is often a lot of time and work and research but since the end product "looks" small to most people they undervalue it. (Kind of like they do in the photography business, people assume the photographer just has to press a button).

Creating some companies identity through graphic design should always pay well. If you undercut yourself this way it is only showing clients you don't value your work, and they won't value your work either.

lucidmedia
Nov 28, 2010, 12:46 PM
http://justcreativedesign.com/2008/05/22/why-logo-design-does-not-cost-5-dollars/

Hermes Monster
Nov 28, 2010, 01:31 PM
the NIKE logo only cost $35 (http://www.junkmails.org/how-much-did-nikes-swoosh-logo-cost/50/), they appear to have done quite well despite this ...

This thread has completely gone off on a tangent that has nothing to do with my op. Search for the "designers are snotty" thread, if anyone wants to carry on with this topic

Thanks

stainlessliquid
Nov 28, 2010, 08:03 PM
These sites only attract low paying clients and the designer works his/her ass off and still gets screwed in the end. $100 - $150 is absolutely nothing for the time and effort it takes in graphic design. Graphic design is HUGELY under-appreciated and is often a lot of time and work and research but since the end product "looks" small to most people they undervalue it. (Kind of like they do in the photography business, people assume the photographer just has to press a button).
Youre exaggerating, it doesnt have to be hard or time consuming and for $100 it shouldnt be. Any good designer can churn out an attractive logo in under an hour. If the designers who do work for these sites were smart theyd have templates set up to churn out stuff quickly and easily (and Im sure a lot do), for $100 theres no point in worrying about originality and those sites have time limits which make revisions minimal (which take up the bulk of design time in a job). The people who make money from those sites have strategies on how to play the system, theres low turnover (looking at the stats of the users its between 10-20% success) so you have to spend very little time on each logo, theres probably a lot of copy and pasting and then changing things a little, or you should only choose ones with bad competition and then wait until the last day and make a quick logo thats much better than the other crap submitted. I would play a ringer and avoid the highest paying ones and just go for the lowest ones where all the amateur looking logos are submitted.

$100 logos are easy money, I dont know why people dont take advantage of them, you just need to set rules for yourself and the client, if I had the offers Id do them all the time for some extra money each month.

Virago
Jan 3, 2011, 05:54 AM
I've been using myroburst for the last month and have done well. It's not something I'd recommend to make a living off of, but if you're a decent designer you'll make a few hundred bucks a month to enjoy.

However in the last week, I suddenly have been able to upload files on my mac. I can upload to other websites, so it's not the internet. I was able to use my boyfriend's PC, until I got this error message: " there was a problem with the upload. the server did not accept it". Has anyone else have this problem? I've emailed support, and they haven't been very helpful. If anyone reading this has a solution, I'd be eternally greatful. My username on Mycroburst is MarenMay. Thanks!

Hermes Monster
Jan 3, 2011, 01:50 PM
I've been using myroburst for the last month and have done well. It's not something I'd recommend to make a living off of, but if you're a decent designer you'll make a few hundred bucks a month to enjoy.

However in the last week, I suddenly have been able to upload files on my mac. I can upload to other websites, so it's not the internet. I was able to use my boyfriend's PC, until I got this error message: " there was a problem with the upload. the server did not accept it". Has anyone else have this problem? I've emailed support, and they haven't been very helpful. If anyone reading this has a solution, I'd be eternally greatful. My username on Mycroburst is MarenMay. Thanks!

I've had this issue using firefox, for a change IE has been the only one to work for me - means I have to email it to myself at work tho!

wittejoe
Mar 9, 2011, 02:05 PM
Full disclosure--- I'm a co-founder at Mycroburst.

Here's the good- we pay our designers on time, and we pay them 90% of the prize money- while other sites pay much less. We take pride in customer service, and are hiring more staff to have phone service available for around 18 hours a day, M-F. We'll continue to move towards 24/7 support.

Now, on to the debate. Couple things- on Mycroburst.com, all a designer has to do is design. Design, and design more. It's great for new designers, people who want to do it part time for some extra money or experience, and it's changing the way people live with our international design community.

If someone wants to freelance, or start their own company, there are incredible expenses and additional headaches. I'm a business owner, I know. On top of that, finding customers, sitting with them, pitching them your service, hashing out agreements, (trying to) collect money... all this takes time and money. We simplify the process, and allow designer to do what they do best.

Now, we understand that if someone lives on SF, NYC or LA, that they can't sustain this as a full time job. But if someone lives in Western PA, Eastern Europe, Asia... and they are good designers, they can make good money. We have a group of designers in the Philippines who are now able to travel, and had Mycroburst T-shirts made up that they wear. We've changed the way they live. They have probably doubled their income, and no longer have to work for "the man".

Also, we dont discourage designers from doing business with our clients after they win a project for additional work. It's a marketplace- go for it.

And finally, i'd say, to all the skeptics, 1) this isnt going away 2) it's just the beginning. Mycroburst understands that our design community is what makes us special, and we are looking at ways to get designers EVERYWHERE more work, and connect with project holders. Give us some time, and we'll hopefully help make the design world a little better for everyone.

thx,

joe

wittejoe
Mar 9, 2011, 02:10 PM
Hi Virago, call James on our support extension, 267-852-2121.

ezekielrage_99
Mar 9, 2011, 05:55 PM
@wittejoe Ummm No, fail imho.

Crowd sourcing creates taxing issues in countries likes Australia and New Zealand, furthermore basing the argument of the old chestnut "you just design" or "you can build a CV" isn't very valid mainly because it gives the perception of payment when that clearly isn't guaranteed.

The issue I have with the whole concept or crowdsourcing is purely from an economic stand point, computer equipment and software cost money. Thus the system is flawed by the concept that a newer designer or a person with some interest with design wouldn't be paying for software like Illustrator or Photoshop.

The sheer economics of it makes little sense either, I have read in a design article (Creative Arts, will post like it I can find the digital version) that the average success rate on crowdsourcing designer is around 10%-12% while the average submission is 20.

An average logo take 3 hours worth of work (for something very very semi polished) not including revisions, you're putting in 60 hours worth of work for something that *may* pay.

Now lets say I win 2 comps out of 20 (10%) I've noticed the average "prize" is $300, my hourly rate is $10 per hour without ANY other benefits and without a 100% guarantee I'll get paid. It doesn't make sense and doesn't allow for reinvestment for plant. For the record we pay interns more than that, plus they get benefits.

Furthermore I've notice on the crowdsource sites they do strip away the rights for the designs to the designer. Upon enter I loose legal rights to what I produce, no decent freelancer/agency would ever do away with these basic right.

The issue also being the "we want to help designers get more work" is also invalid, talented designers will always find work in my experience. The reason why the bottom feeders fail and hopefully leave the industry is because their skills don't cut the mustard.

Is crowdsource here to stay, well yes. Is it a good thing for design, absolutely not.

bellinghamarts
Dec 21, 2011, 03:48 PM
My experience with this company was a nightmare! The hours and hours of work I won my first job. I completed all my files on time but never received payment. I'm still fighting with the company to get paid. I called and sent 10 emails before getting 1 very short email saying I didn't make their deadlines. However I did, sent the files the same day I won the job. Additionally I've had my design coppied twice by other designers. I've reported both times and received no reply. I still can't get the issues resolved. DON"T design for this company!!!

ILikeTurtles
Dec 27, 2011, 02:25 PM
I appreciate you have a strong opinion on this, but at the end of the day you're making strong assumptions about people you don't know and have no idea of their background.

Me for example, I have three years of college study (and subsequant qualifications) in design and communication, but have somehow ended up working as a Infrastructure SME for a large UK bank - it pays well but I don't enjoy it. I know all about project lifecycles, I'm ITIL and PRINCE2 qualified so I know how these things work in the real world. BUT I do enjoy design work, and these websites offer an outlet for that- if I get paid then that's great, if not at least I've expressed myself and have something for my portfolio anyway...and also had some more parctise with photoshop...

I'll admit some of the designs on the sites are appauling, but some are really good.

You may feel that as a designer these sites are taking away work from you, I feel that's slightly short sighted and wonder why should your profession be excluded from the DIY culture. When you DIY at home, is that not taking work from a builder, if you mod' your car is that not taking work from a mechanic...and so on.

Thank you for your feedback and it's certainly something I'll think about, maybe you could do the same with my points?

Ok if/when you need your appendix removed or (god forbid) brain surgery; why don't you visit a DIY hobbyist who thinks their a doctor?

Hermes Monster
Jan 1, 2012, 09:46 AM
Ok if/when you need your appendix removed or (god forbid) brain surgery; why don't you visit a DIY hobbyist who thinks their a doctor?

Thanks for dragging this back up. You're right, brain surgery is totally the same thing.

SvP
Jan 1, 2012, 04:32 PM
the NIKE logo only cost $35 (http://www.junkmails.org/how-much-did-nikes-swoosh-logo-cost/50/), they appear to have done quite well despite this ...

This thread has completely gone off on a tangent that has nothing to do with my op. Search for the "designers are snotty" thread, if anyone wants to carry on with this topic

Thanks

It's BS!.
Don't throw in a crappy misinformed argument and then argue the thread has gone off on a tangent. It's like hitting someone and then arguing violence is bad.

A "lucky" idea with is paid $35 dollars for is great, but not anywhere near a proper comparison to ripping off hard working people:

12 years later in 1983, Davidson got an invitation to lunch by Nike where Knight surprised her with a gold Swoosh ring embedded with diamond and an envelope containing Nike stock. How much Nike stock remains a secret between Knight and her, but the stock has split three times since she received it!

wittejoe
Jan 26, 2012, 09:00 AM
Thanks for dragging this back up. You're right, brain surgery is totally the same thing.

Really a bad analogy. no one has ever died from graphic design, that i know of. Also, design is not an exact science, it's a matter of opinion (ie, art). When Scott Stratten, PandoDaily, Terry Jones and other major marketing experts, tech giants and entrepreneurial experts endorse crowdsourcing and the results... you know it works.

Option A: Pay $300 and get 100 concepts, 25% are good= 25 good concepts.
Optoin B: Pay $300 and get 3 concpets

Bottom line, our Net Promoter Score is over 70, which puts us above Apple and Amazon. Why? Because it works and our clients are thrilled.

Apple Key
Jan 26, 2012, 09:48 AM
Submitting to these design sites is really like playing the lottery (or playing bingo). You could be Paul Rand and still not win the prize money. If you have the time to gamble and want to give it a chance, or if you're looking to expand your portfolio, then go for it. But, if you want to develop a high quality portfolio, then you need to follow the standard design process. Meet with the client to begin to understand their needs, do your research, ask the client more questions, do more research, begin sketching, etc.

And to answer your original question, no I have not participated in these design contests. But, I will admit that I have been tempted to give it a try in the past.

I also bought one lottery ticket a couple weeks ago...

----------

Really a bad analogy. no one has ever died from graphic design, that i know of. Also, design is not an exact science, it's a matter of opinion (ie, art). When Scott Stratten, PandoDaily, Terry Jones and other major marketing experts, tech giants and entrepreneurial experts endorse crowdsourcing and the results... you know it works.

Option A: Pay $300 and get 100 concepts, 25% are good= 25 good concepts.
Optoin B: Pay $300 and get 3 concpets

Bottom line, our Net Promoter Score is over 70, which puts us above Apple and Amazon. Why? Because it works and our clients are thrilled.

More is not always better. You only need one great logo. You will never receive the quality of work from this site, as you would from an experienced professional designer.

How many globally recognizable logos have been created and sold on the site?

----------

Thanks for dragging this back up. You're right, brain surgery is totally the same thing.

You get what you pay for.

----------

the NIKE logo only cost $35 (http://www.junkmails.org/how-much-did-nikes-swoosh-logo-cost/50/), they appear to have done quite well despite this ...

And I'm sure that countless hours were spent on concept sketches and designing the logo. The price you pay for a logo doesn't matter though. Are you implying that if I design a logo for you for free that the logo is then worthless?

freespiritwenz
Jun 27, 2013, 11:24 PM
Seems like quite an old post but interesting debate & thus I 1 2 add in my 2cents too. :)
- I named mycroburst supporter (MBS); Anti-(A-MB) & co-founder (MB)

1st of all, for Hermes Monster (MBS) when u started this thread, u seek opinions fro all but yet u became argumentative wen most doesn't sing with u. We all come fro diff BG; diff countries; newbies or experienced but coming tgt here, I believed all of us wanted to learn fro each other or give the best advices (be it historical detours, hicups & experiences). What I believed is to always learn/listen humbly, whether u use it or not is up to ur own discretion.
Every designer is unique (stubborn too), who believe they r right(at all times) & that is exactly what makes us special. The creators & not followers....We tell the clients what is best for them based on the researches we did, experiences (market/public response) & stick with our own principals though we try to customize as much as clients need but......still u r the designer & not the client, pls dun get dictated fro how it goes endpoint. Anyway we have all diff standpoints.

MBS: Understand their concerns as they take it as a platform to start, to experiment & challenge themselves. As always, it is ur self worth. If you feel that putting in 60hrs for a $50 job, u felt good cos u learn sth along the way & u felt satisfied with urself, the design & $, so stick with what makes u feel is right cos is ur time & not others. So what if u have to design 100 to get the basic 20designs pay-out of a free-lancer charges, so long as u deem is worth it. When u design more than 2000 & think is time to up ur worth, then u can always change, no obligations. (Btw, isn't it frustrating if an engineering student came up & said to u: Hey, i started learning illustrator recently, i think i can design now, might b just as good as u).

A-MB: Yes it is totally frustrating & de-value us somehow or rather. (I'm totally with ur, *wink*) Juz like there's always ppl who buy authentic Gucci & others who buy fake & claim classy (ppl here meant customers). So there are still co & also clients that will appreciate the quality work, the effort & details that we put in. But thinking of the new designers, is scary to face the market with or without mentors. Ur know how demanding clients can be.....& for them without proper channels (contacts), how to market themselves without exisitng clientele. Still must eat or pay bills, so i reckon no choice. Without the extensive portfolio that most have here, is difficult to even get referrals, let alone be known.

MB: FOR marketing perspectives, it is definitely good! Cos u r looking at the customers' perspectives when they have more choices & doesn't have to pay more for revisions. But u cannot claim that it is for the benefits of the designers. Cos u have never come in as the angle for designers but you need them. Without them, the sites can't survive. Yes it will be there to stay & I might also design when I'm bored or desperate, u r not wrong either as all these are consenting designers. And if you do want to fight for a balance (as u claim) now or future, for both designers & clients, what is ur directions? Clients perspective mostly or? Basic for designers - give up their full copy rights on logo(as stated in website), can they even publish as their work in their portfolio?

Last but not least, for newbies like me, the exposure is out there, how u seek exposure is how u market urself. The internet makes it so easy nowadays with twitter, behance, AIGA etc.... dun compromise too much bcos of the GIANT out there, ur vision & passion is what led u to continue, grow on it.

*i'm forever & will always be a newbie cos everyday, there is sth new to learn fro someone, something or somewhere* (sometimes I think I might b more of a writer than designer.....:eek:)