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MacBytes
Jan 14, 2005, 03:22 PM
Category: Reviews
Link: No More Internet for Them (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20050114162227)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

the_mole1314
Jan 14, 2005, 03:38 PM
Good and bad for Apple, more people getting fed up with Windows, bad is that there is NO MENTION of Apple anywhere in that article. Zip, zero, nada.

Applespider
Jan 14, 2005, 03:57 PM
There are a lot of people who have no idea that there's another option aside from giving up using the Web.

I mentioned to a guy at work, in passing, that there were no OS X viruses and he spent the next 2 hours online trying to prove me wrong. Eventually he came over and sheepishly said that he was amazed and he might now get his non-techy mother a Mac soon.

nagromme
Jan 14, 2005, 04:38 PM
I mentioned to a guy at work, in passing, that there were no OS X viruses and he spent the next 2 hours online trying to prove me wrong. Eventually he came over and sheepishly said that he was amazed and he might now get his non-techy mother a Mac soon.

No kidding. It's not just that people don't KNOW Macs are safer from viruses.... it's that they KNOW nothing could be safer than Windows!

Talk about blinders.

Superhob
Jan 14, 2005, 04:53 PM
"No one is immune. Microsoft Corp. Chairman Bill Gates discovered spyware on his personal machine not long ago."

Oh the irony.... :)

JCentourage
Jan 14, 2005, 05:45 PM
My question / fear is won't malicious individuals come after Apple and its users if our machines are touted as "Safe" All we need is people saying 'we don't have a problem with that ' a little too loud, and we darn well could have a problem. :eek:

dejo
Jan 14, 2005, 05:45 PM
"No one is immune. Microsoft Corp. Chairman Bill Gates discovered spyware on his personal machine not long ago."

Oh the irony.... :)

Yeah, payback's a bitch, eh Bill?

Anyways, a more correct statement would have been "No Windows-user is immune." Heh heh heh...

neilrobinson
Jan 14, 2005, 05:47 PM
"No one is immune. Microsoft Corp. Chairman Bill Gates discovered spyware on his personal machine not long ago."

Oh the irony.... :)

i though i saw somewhere bill gates had the "best" maybe not? cause he dont own a Mac :D

Applespider
Jan 14, 2005, 05:55 PM
My question / fear is won't malicious individuals come after Apple and its users if our machines are touted as "Safe" All we need is people saying 'we don't have a problem with that ' a little too loud, and we darn well could have a problem. :eek:

Which is why you won't see Apple touting it as an official selling point. But some newspapers have already started picking up on it - and while it would be good to keep quiet, not let anyone know and keep OS X secure, it's not really fair to let our friends and colleagues suffer.

There are many people on the forum better qualified that I to give their opinions on the relative securities of OS X regardless of number of people. I guess at some point, someone will find some loophole. Let's face it, Windows has a 68,751 virus headstart on us, let alone the amount of spyware, so I'd like to think I've got quite a while to enjoy my Mac and encourage others to try the experience too

Nermal
Jan 14, 2005, 06:05 PM
Plus the underlying OS is more secure than Windows, so it's more difficult to create spyware etc. If a Web page asks you to enter your administrator password, then that's a sure sign that it's up to no good!

nagromme
Jan 14, 2005, 06:18 PM
My question / fear is won't malicious individuals come after Apple and its users if our machines are touted as "Safe" All we need is people saying 'we don't have a problem with that ' a little too loud, and we darn well could have a problem. :eek:

We WILL have viruses, someday, no matter what. There's no hiding forever. And this advantage is too big to hide even if we wanted to!

The reason Apple might not want to tout it isn't that it will tempt hackers, I don't think, but rather that WHEN (not IF) there IS a virus for Mac, it will come back in Apple's face.

Yet we'll never have the massive problems what Windows users face. Take comfort!

dejo
Jan 14, 2005, 06:31 PM
I've said this before in other places but don't you think there are enough Apple-haters out there that someone would've tried by now to write the killer Mac virus that would make them famous and make all the Apple zealots eat crow? I don't buy the argument that it's because of Apple's low market share. There's gotta be some hackers out there who have been just dying to disprove this claim.

combatcolin
Jan 14, 2005, 06:35 PM
Yes spy ware is a pain, but ihave these people not heard of Ad Aware?!?

wrldwzrd89
Jan 14, 2005, 06:39 PM
I've said this before in other places but don't you think there are enough Apple-haters out there that someone would've tried by now to write the killer Mac virus that would make them famous and make all the Apple zealots eat crow? I don't buy the argument that it's because of Apple's low market share. There's gotta be some hackers out there who have been just dying to disprove this claim.
Those hackers are probably trying to figure out how to bypass the extensive protections UNIX provides to Mac OS X to make their viruses effective, and failing miserably. Eventually, someone will break through - but Apple's prompt patches combined with their default Software Update auto-update policy will limit the effectiveness of any attack. So the hackers are stuck no matter what they try ;)

vollspacken
Jan 14, 2005, 06:41 PM
the day we'll hit 7.5% user installed base we'll see the first OsX virus... :(

vSpacken

wrldwzrd89
Jan 14, 2005, 06:45 PM
the day we'll hit 7.5% user installed base we'll see the first OsX virus... :(

vSpacken
According to some estimates of Apple's installed base, we're already above that mark. The highest estimates put Apple's installed base at 12% in the USA and 9% worldwide - pretty significant if you ask me.

dejo
Jan 14, 2005, 06:47 PM
the day we'll hit 7.5% user installed base we'll see the first OsX virus... :(

vSpacken

So there's already a virus out there that will be triggered by the user installed base? ;)

dejo
Jan 14, 2005, 06:48 PM
...but Apple's prompt patches combined with their default Software Update auto-update policy will limit the effectiveness of any attack.

Too bad Microsoft only likes to put out their patches once a month...

3Memos
Jan 14, 2005, 06:57 PM
Its also posted as a story on Slashdot.org. Seems with the case of adware and spyware and viruses on the PC platform, and Apple's play for the low-end PC business, looks like Apple is positioning themselves to being relevant again.

Bunzi2k4
Jan 14, 2005, 07:26 PM
well the reason why we don't have many viruses is because we don't have a big market. yet. When apple computers become popular, then we'll start seeing viruses. The average computer user still think Macintosh is some over priced, second-rate machine. As soon as the average user thinks apple is Good, then we'll start seeing some viruses.

why make viruses for the minority when you can screw around with 90% of all computer users?

dejo
Jan 14, 2005, 07:30 PM
well the reason why we don't have many viruses is because we don't have a big market. yet. When apple computers become popular, then we'll start seeing viruses. The average computer user still think Macintosh is some over priced, second-rate machine. As soon as the average user thinks apple is Good, then we'll start seeing some viruses.

why make viruses for the minority when you can screw around with 90% of all computer users?

And it's the AVERAGE computer user that is writing viruses? Puh-lease.

By your reasoning, nobody should be developing any software for the Mac platform either. But they do...

Bunzi2k4
Jan 14, 2005, 07:34 PM
And it's the AVERAGE computer user that is writing viruses? Puh-lease.

By your reasoning, nobody should be developing any software for the Mac platform either. But they do...


People develope software because there's money involved.

dejo
Jan 14, 2005, 07:44 PM
People develope software because there's money involved.

Tell that to many of the open source developers.

Bunzi2k4
Jan 14, 2005, 08:31 PM
Lol I have a feeling that you'll always find a fault in the way I think.

whatever. I don't see why people would make viruses for macs when we're the minority. developers make software so they can make a living. The open source people make software because they want to.

If you're gonna make something harmful, you want it to affect the maximum ammont of people possible.

dejo
Jan 15, 2005, 12:22 AM
Lol I have a feeling that you'll always find a fault in the way I think.

whatever. I don't see why people would make viruses for macs when we're the minority. developers make software so they can make a living. The open source people make software because they want to.

If you're gonna make something harmful, you want it to affect the maximum ammont of people possible.

I agree with you on a couple of your points. Paid developers make software so they can make a living. Open source developers make software because they want to. But I don't agree with you on the mentality of virus writers. There are some who do it for recognition within their community. Imagine how much recognition they would get if they wrote a virus that infected the supposedly hack-proof Mac OS X.

paulypants
Jan 15, 2005, 12:30 AM
How many script kiddies out there know enough about UNIX to exploit it? No matter how many users there are it is still harder to create a virus for UNIX than it is for Windows, period.

Chip NoVaMac
Jan 15, 2005, 12:32 AM
My question / fear is won't malicious individuals come after Apple and its users if our machines are touted as "Safe" All we need is people saying 'we don't have a problem with that ' a little too loud, and we darn well could have a problem. :eek:

Popular opinion is that it would take a 20 to 30% market share for that to happen. I personally think that it would take just 15% or better. :eek:

Chip NoVaMac
Jan 15, 2005, 12:36 AM
We WILL have viruses, someday, no matter what. There's no hiding forever. And this advantage is too big to hide even if we wanted to!

The reason Apple might not want to tout it isn't that it will tempt hackers, I don't think, but rather that WHEN (not IF) there IS a virus for Mac, it will come back in Apple's face.

Yet we'll never have the massive problems what Windows users face. Take comfort!

IMO there has been enough hype for it to have happened already. In a small scale. There was talk of a virus in a P2P download of the Office for Mac, but never really heard much more about it.

Chip NoVaMac
Jan 15, 2005, 12:46 AM
So there's already a virus out there that will be triggered by the user installed base? ;)

I think it was a joke as to what mass would be needed for the "malware" people to take note on. I use malware, only because in a different thread I used "hacker", and some told me that was too broad a term.

Chip NoVaMac
Jan 15, 2005, 12:50 AM
well the reason why we don't have many viruses is because we don't have a big market. yet. When apple computers become popular, then we'll start seeing viruses. The average computer user still think Macintosh is some over priced, second-rate machine. As soon as the average user thinks apple is Good, then we'll start seeing some viruses.

why make viruses for the minority when you can screw around with 90% of all computer users?

In the end I think that Apple will be more proactive to protect their users than MS has been. Because Apple realizes that their customers do have a choice.

winmacguy
Jan 15, 2005, 01:37 AM
We WILL have viruses, someday, no matter what. There's no hiding forever. And this advantage is too big to hide even if we wanted to!



Any virus writer out there with an intimate understanding of UNIX could write a virus for OSX. The first ever virus written at Berkely back in the 60s was a UNIX virus and that is waaaay before Windows. Just most virus writers find Windows an easier target.

Eric5h5
Jan 15, 2005, 02:14 AM
The problem with the "OSX doesn't have viruses because it doesn't have enough market share" theory is that OS9 does have viruses. Not vast numbers of them like Windows, but they exist, so explain that, eh?

Here's a hint: it has to do with the security of the OS. Viruses don't "just happen to computers," as if all computers (or OSes) were the same. It would be naive to say that it's impossible for any viruses to ever appear on OSX, but it's not something that will just magically happen if OSX gets more users, either.

--Eric

cwedl
Jan 15, 2005, 03:04 AM
I own a PC and a Mac, at the moment the PC is on the internet, I have broadband, BUT my machine is fine, and always has been. I have an up to date anti-virus, a good 3rd party firewall, I used adware to check for spyware 3 times a week, and make sure the system is updated. What do these people do, open an e-mail attachment wirh an exe or zip extenstion? if they do, they must be stupid! do they go to dodgy websites? if they do they deserve to get spyware. Lastly - I DON'T use internet Explorer, thats just asking for problems, I use firefox.
In fact one of my friends using a Pc gets spyware only because he doesn't do any of the above.

If people are not using windows XP, then good 3rd party software would be able to protect you.

Not all machines are vunverable, only the users are, just more education is needed on how to look after their computer.

Soom though I will get a MAC mini and use that for the internet, I won't then have to worry about this anyway! :)

wrldwzrd89
Jan 15, 2005, 04:50 AM
I own a PC and a Mac, at the moment the PC is on the internet, I have broadband, BUT my machine is fine, and always has been. I have an up to date anti-virus, a good 3rd party firewall, I used adware to check for spyware 3 times a week, and make sure the system is updated. What do these people do, open an e-mail attachment wirh an exe or zip extenstion? if they do, they must be stupid! do they go to dodgy websites? if they do they deserve to get spyware. Lastly - I DON'T use internet Explorer, thats just asking for problems, I use firefox.
In fact one of my friends using a Pc gets spyware only because he doesn't do any of the above.

If people are not using windows XP, then good 3rd party software would be able to protect you.

Not all machines are vunverable, only the users are, just more education is needed on how to look after their computer.
<snip>
Therein lies the problem. A surprisingly large proportion of Windows users simply don't know what it takes to be fully protected - fortunately for you, you know how. My advice to you is spread the wisdom and hope people listen to you. Personally, I just disconnect my PC from the Internet, since I don't need it for anything Internet-related that my Mac can't handle - this measure alone severely limits my exposure to malware, and also stops it from spreading should I get infected.

Mord
Jan 15, 2005, 04:57 AM
i dissagree about mac users getting viruses when it becomes more popular, there are more mac users than linux users but there are linux viruses (bliss and staog) but there are none for the mac os, it's because the mac os is a BSD, the most secure operating system in the world, it will take a hell of allot of work to be able to get a virus root access without a user giveing it to it.

when my mac is infested with viruses/spyware i'm going to run solaris.

The problem with the "OSX doesn't have viruses because it doesn't have enough market share" theory is that OS9 does have viruses. Not vast numbers of them like Windows, but they exist, so explain that, eh?

Here's a hint: it has to do with the security of the OS. Viruses don't "just happen to computers," as if all computers (or OSes) were the same. It would be naive to say that it's impossible for any viruses to ever appear on OSX, but it's not something that will just magically happen if OSX gets more users, either.

--Eric

unless you count word macro viruses no it did not, the only mac os viruses were for system 6/7

Vonnie
Jan 15, 2005, 05:13 AM
Ok, let's be honest here, even if Apple doubles their market share, it is still only 10%. It's going to be very hard to spread viruses or worms if only 10% of the computers are vulnerable/compatible. Suppose a virus infects your mac, and sends itself to all the people in your adres book. How many of them also use a mac? How many of those mac users will blindly run the attached program? So I doubt we will have to worry about virusses or worms in the next 5 years.

There might develop a problem with spyware and adaware, because it doesn't really require a big market share. Now if we all pay fairly for our programs, developers won't feel the need to put in spyware in their programs to get *some* advertising money.

When a developer does come out with an adaware infested program for the mac: REACT. Mail him, warn everyone you know about this program, post extremely critical reviews on your blogs and websites. Force him to change his business model if he wants some customers!
We are mac users, by definition we do not accept crap on our machines!

wrldwzrd89
Jan 15, 2005, 05:19 AM
Ok, let's be honest here, even if Apple doubles their market share, it is still only 10%. It's going to be very hard to spread viruses or worms if only 10% of the computers are vulnerable/compatible. Suppose a virus infects your mac, and sends itself to all the people in your adres book. How many of them also use a mac? How many of those mac users will blindly run the attached program? So I doubt we will have to worry about virusses or worms in the next 5 years.

There might develop a problem with spyware and adaware, because it doesn't really require a big market share. Now if we all pay fairly for our programs, developers won't feel the need to put in spyware in their programs to get *some* advertising money.

When a developer does come out with an adaware infested program for the mac: REACT. Mail him, warn everyone you know about this program, post extremely critical reviews on your blogs and websites. Force him to change his business model if he wants some customers!
We are mac users, by definition we do not accept crap on our machines!
Uh...I thought Apple's market share was around 1.25%. To get to 10% we'd have to octuple (8x), not double (2x).

Patmian212
Jan 15, 2005, 05:28 AM
Yes spy ware is a pain, but ihave these people not heard of Ad Aware?!?

I find adware way more annoying than spyware. . . Im running a PC now so I cant wait to get my Mac so I wont have to worry about spyware and adware again. . . Although I must say Windoze service pack 2 with windoze firewall has helped alot.

crazedbytheheat
Jan 15, 2005, 07:33 AM
On this topic, I was wondering if anyone knows anything about the security model in Dashboard. According to the ADC site you can "[e]xecute system commands, such as shell scripts or command-line tools" from a widget :eek: (http://developer.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html). This seems like a prime opportunity for trojans. That's why Java applets don't let you directly interact with the OS. I realize this should only effect at the user level, but I have a lot of stuff I prefer not get distributed (passwords, financial data, work files, etc.). What I'd like to see is some sort of control that lets me specify the access permissions on a per widget basis. Ones I trust (or create) can access the OS, general ones downloaded from the web can't.

macnulty
Jan 15, 2005, 08:43 AM
We WILL have viruses, someday, no matter what. There's no hiding forever. And this advantage is too big to hide even if we wanted to!

The reason Apple might not want to tout it isn't that it will tempt hackers, I don't think, but rather that WHEN (not IF) there IS a virus for Mac, it will come back in Apple's face.

Yet we'll never have the massive problems what Windows users face. Take comfort!

I think you are really close to the answer. If they did ads of no virus, I can imagine the lawsuits if one did pop up, someone sued over misrepresenting the true size of hard drives. Also I don't think advertising that your product is "safer" is smart unless you have a third party stamp of approval, such as the government's (or is it insurance industry's) star ratings for cars , UL or even Consumer Reports. It gives a company cover in case of the unknown popping up.

macnulty
Jan 15, 2005, 08:55 AM
Uh...I thought Apple's market share was around 1.25%. To get to 10% we'd have to octuple (8x), not double (2x).

Whatever the number, "market share" generally refers to percentage of sales in a given period of a given product. Some have said the installed user base is around 12% in the US.

wrldwzrd89
Jan 15, 2005, 09:23 AM
Whatever the number, "market share" generally refers to percentage of sales in a given period of a given product. Some have said the installed user base is around 12% in the US.
That was me. You defined market share correctly. The definition of installed user base is the number of products currently in use from that manufacturer (when they were bought is not relevant).

macnulty
Jan 15, 2005, 04:26 PM
The article really reveals Apple's challange. The people giving up on the internet are not exploring a different solution. For a supposedly savy computer user not to have occurred to him why not to check into Macintosh or Linux I think says a lot about computer users in general. It is Apple's challange to not only sell machines but at least create an awareness in consumers that there is an alternative out there. Do you think any one associated with Apple marketing is paying attention? Quite frankly, Apple not being Windows scares people. It means leaving their comfort zone. (BTW, I think windows on Apple would kill Apple.) Just when I think I know everything, I realize I'm married.

bertagert
Jan 15, 2005, 05:20 PM
I find adware way more annoying than spyware. . . Im running a PC now so I cant wait to get my Mac so I wont have to worry about spyware and adware again. . . Although I must say Windoze service pack 2 with windoze firewall has helped alot.
He was talking about Ad Aware...not adware. Ad Aware is a program that gets rid of spyware. Go here to check it out Lavasoftusa.com (http://www.lavasoftusa.com/)

narco
Jan 15, 2005, 06:32 PM
I don't even really know what spyware is -- I know it's annoying and it's a huge problem, but it really doesn't effect me so I don't need to read up on it.

Since I work with macs for my job, family members and some co-workers immediately assume that I can fix all computer problems. It's such a great feeling telling them: "I have a Mac, I don't have those problems."

Fishes,
narco

Mainyehc
Jan 16, 2005, 01:16 AM
Ok, let's be honest here, even if Apple doubles their market share, it is still only 10%. It's going to be very hard to spread viruses or worms if only 10% of the computers are vulnerable/compatible.

MARKETSHARE ≠ INSTALLED BASE

Mac OS, be it 9, X 10.2/3 user base is larger than Mac marketshare, for the simple reason that Macs seem to last forever. Since they have a superior hardware quality to that of x86 systems, and Mac OS X versions can't even be compared to the usual bloatware crap that Windows is, you can keep them running with up-to-date OSs. But I can see from your post you already know that, you just used the wrong term. Though, I still think that their installed base is maybe above 10%, IMHO

Anyway, while on the subject... Apple sells less computers than their competition, but I'm preety sure that their standalone OS sales should pay off at least a little bit for their strategy... I'm about to fork over 150 for Tiger, I'm not even thinking twice about that. And a lot of people will be doing that too. Just look how many people are using Panther vs. those who are still using Jaguar! ;)

Btw, does anyone here know how the Mac OS installed base stacks up against Windows and Linux though? I'm curious about that, I'd like to know wether I'm right or not about it being more than 10%. :cool:

takao
Jan 16, 2005, 04:44 AM
MARKETSHARE ≠ INSTALLED BASE

Mac OS, be it 9, X 10.2/3 user base is larger than Mac marketshare, for the simple reason that Macs seem to last forever. Since they have a superior hardware quality to that of x86 systems, and Mac OS X versions can't even be compared to the usual bloatware crap that Windows is, you can keep them running with up-to-date OSs. But I can see from your post you already know that, you just used the wrong term. Though, I still think that their installed base is maybe above 10%, IMHO

one question for you: if one company has a marketshare around 1,5-2,5 for more than 10 years in a market where most products are replaced every 3-5 years (yes even macs) do you think that that the installed base will be 10 % ? marketshare and installed base are not as disconnected as you think...

wrldwzrd89
Jan 16, 2005, 05:48 AM
one question for you: if one company has a marketshare around 1,5-2,5 for more than 10 years in a market where most products are replaced every 3-5 years (yes even macs) do you think that that the installed base will be 10 % ? marketshare and installed base are not as disconnected as you think...
One question for you:

You probably were not aware that one thing peculiar to Macs is not that people replace them every 3-5 years but that Mac users often keep their old Mac after buying a new one. This is one of the ways Mac collectors build up collections of old Macs, and it's a surprisingly common hobby among Mac users, hence the Mac Collectors area on these forums. Therefore, the installed base for Macs tends to be higher than it otherwise would be due to these extra Macs lying around - most of them are still in use as hand-me-downs or file servers.

takao
Jan 16, 2005, 07:06 AM
One question for you:

You probably were not aware that one thing peculiar to Macs is not that people replace them every 3-5 years but that Mac users often keep their old Mac after buying a new one. This is one of the ways Mac collectors build up collections of old Macs, and it's a surprisingly common hobby among Mac users, hence the Mac Collectors area on these forums. Therefore, the installed base for Macs tends to be higher than it otherwise would be due to these extra Macs lying around - most of them are still in use as hand-me-downs or file servers.

the same thing happens on the x86 side too ;) it's not like that's something mac isolated... it's more a "enthusiasts thing" ..sure there might be more enthusiasts on the mac side but it's far from going to add up to 9 to 12% installed user base

according to the german c't the average mac on the used-pc market is _younger_ than the average x86 (3-4 months as far as i remember)..they were surprised by this as well ;)


(personally i'm still having lot's of old hardware around which still get's used once in a while ... in september i needed a sound card..i simply took out the old from my 486.. 2-3 weeks ago i got a pc (1,2 ghz athlon,128 mb ram, 50 gb) for my little brother for free..according to him it's the best birthday present he ever got (he's 13 now ;) )... my aunt has been using win 3.11 +word on a 386 untill 2002
1,5-2 weeks ago i had to fix a pc from a family friend as well and when he picked it back up he asked me if i could need his 17" crt ... i said "sure" because of the headless-mac rumour at that time ;) turned out to be right answer
so far i haven't had to throw away pcs but next summer i either have to get myself another room or start deciding... not even mentioning the huge pile of stuff marked as "still needs to be checked"

and yes i tried to find macs out there in the wild but i haven't seen any in a while ..from my expierence they might have ~3.5 percent installed user base at best if i'm doubting my personal expeirence where it is rather close to the 1.75% market share..while iPods have gotten a lot more popular in the last few months ...)

wrldwzrd89
Jan 16, 2005, 07:55 AM
the same thing happens on the x86 side too ;) it's not like that's something mac isolated... it's more a "enthusiasts thing" ..sure there might be more enthusiasts on the mac side but it's far from going to add up to 9 to 12% installed user base

according to the german c't the average mac on the used-pc market is _younger_ than the average x86 (3-4 months as far as i remember)..they were surprised by this as well ;)


(personally i'm still having lot's of old hardware around which still get's used once in a while ... in september i needed a sound card..i simply took out the old from my 486.. 2-3 weeks ago i got a pc (1,2 ghz athlon,128 mb ram, 50 gb) for my little brother for free..according to him it's the best birthday present he ever got (he's 13 now ;) )... my aunt has been using win 3.11 +word on a 386 untill 2002
1,5-2 weeks ago i had to fix a pc from a family friend as well and when he picked it back up he asked me if i could need his 17" crt ... i said "sure" because of the headless-mac rumour at that time ;) turned out to be right answer
so far i haven't had to throw away pcs but next summer i either have to get myself another room or start deciding... not even mentioning the huge pile of stuff marked as "still needs to be checked"

and yes i tried to find macs out there in the wild but i haven't seen any in a while ..from my expierence they might have ~3.5 percent installed user base at best if i'm doubting my personal expeirence where it is rather close to the 1.75% market share..while iPods have gotten a lot more popular in the last few months ...)
Your post just proves how hard it is to get a reasonable estimate of the installed base of Macs, or just about anything else that can't easily be tracked. For all I know, that 12% estimate could be way off - the true number is probably lower, but I doubt anyone knows for sure.

Mord
Jan 16, 2005, 11:24 AM
remember it's very different in european countrys than to america, i think norway or sweeden has the highest national mac market share of 12-15%.

solvs
Jan 17, 2005, 12:15 AM
well the reason why we don't have many viruses is because we don't have a big market.
This is a common argument that's been discussed here ad naseum. I'm sure it is a combination of both low market share and more secure OS, but a lot of it has to do with the security. There are a lot of people who hate Apple for whatever reason, who would love to take us down a notch and be the first to write a real virus for OS X, as mentioned. Windows viruses are a dime a dozen, but to take down a Mac, you're talking real geek fame here.

Even if we do get some malware here and there, it would still never be as bad as Windows. Apple could have 99% marketshare, it's still more secure. Not perfect, but still better than M$.

shamino
Jan 17, 2005, 02:44 PM
On this topic, I was wondering if anyone knows anything about the security model in Dashboard. According to the ADC site you can "[e]xecute system commands, such as shell scripts or command-line tools" from a widget :eek: (http://developer.apple.com/macosx/tiger/dashboard.html). This seems like a prime opportunity for trojans. That's why Java applets don't let you directly interact with the OS.
There's one critical point you're missing.

People embed Java applets in web pages, where they are auto-executed.

Dashboard widgets are like standalone applications. They are not embedded in web pages or mail messages. They are installed just like normal apps. The fact that they use the WebKit libraries does not change this fact.

Yes, a widget can have a Trojan. So can that web browser or file utility you downloaded from an internet server. But you don't see people pushing for some way to prevent applications (even ones written in Java) from making system calls.
I realize this should only effect at the user level, but I have a lot of stuff I prefer not get distributed (passwords, financial data, work files, etc.). What I'd like to see is some sort of control that lets me specify the access permissions on a per widget basis. Ones I trust (or create) can access the OS, general ones downloaded from the web can't.
If you're worried about this WRT widgets, you should be just as worried about it from everything else as well.

If you are afraid the widget you download may be malicious, then you should also worry about the application you download. There is no fundamental difference between the two.

But unlike applets (Java, ActiveX, whatever), widgets and applications do not auto-install when you visit web pages.

crazedbytheheat
Jan 17, 2005, 03:10 PM
There's one critical point you're missing.

People embed Java applets in web pages, where they are auto-executed.

Dashboard widgets are like standalone applications. They are not embedded in web pages or mail messages. They are installed just like normal apps. The fact that they use the WebKit libraries does not change this fact.


Good point. Thanks for the response.