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View Full Version : Bill Palmer thinks the Mac Mini is a lemon


MacBytes
Jan 15, 2005, 06:44 PM
Category: Opinion/Interviews
Link: Bill Palmer thinks the Mac Mini is a lemon (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20050115194423)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

Mudbug
Jan 15, 2005, 06:52 PM
in a nutshell -
Bill's just sore that he got it wrong.

jimsowden
Jan 15, 2005, 07:01 PM
I'm textless. What is this guy's deal? So many inept arguments, and he seems to have no comprehension of how consumers act and think. There's only one way to stick it to him now, lets get selling.

Steven1621
Jan 15, 2005, 07:03 PM
I'm textless. What is this guy's deal? So many inept arguments, and he seems to have no comprehension of how consumers act and think. There's only one way to stick it to him now, lets get selling.

agreed. couldn't have put it better myself

24C
Jan 15, 2005, 07:03 PM
Oh dear, this guy never gets out much. That was a hell of lot bile and rhetoric I just scanned in.

Once you start on that slippery slope it's hard to stop, and that article proved it. Wow

hcuar
Jan 15, 2005, 07:04 PM
Well... since Bill Palmer says so... it must be so. :rolleyes:

brap
Jan 15, 2005, 07:07 PM
Sigh.

I do think Apple would be sensible to offer a slightly reduced KB & Mouse package with the Mini purchase, but it's here nor there. Just look at the number of people on this board, right now who have put in orders for this machine - to add to their collection, to switch, to give to their parents... et cetera.

Sit back Bill, put away that cloudy crystal ball, take a chill pill and watch the real world.

3Memos
Jan 15, 2005, 07:20 PM
Apple can take its idiot box and stick it where the sun don't shine

Seriously, is this guy for real? How can anyone take this guy seriously when the first sentence starts off like this?

24C
Jan 15, 2005, 07:24 PM
Seriously, is this guy for real? How can anyone take this guy seriously when the first sentence starts off like this?

I don't think most people will, but his brashness and simplistic rantings will sadly appeal to some.

3Memos
Jan 15, 2005, 07:27 PM
I don't think most people will, but his brashness and simplistic rantings will sadly appeal to some.

I read the first 2 paragraphs and stopped. It would have been a waste of time. :)

dashiel
Jan 15, 2005, 07:33 PM
yeah, and the ipod is too expensive, and who'd buy a mini when for $50 more they can get a 20GB ipod. i don't recall when in the past 10 years when apple has introduced low priced kit and it failed.

i'd bet $100 on the mac mini becoming the best selling mac this year, if not in history. i know i'll be buying a couple.

as stated above, i think he's just mad that he got his "apple will never release a budget imac" post wrong.

Saad
Jan 15, 2005, 07:36 PM
I think he's right. For $500, I would expect a keyboard and mouse, if not a display. A comparable PC, the T2984 from emachines includes a keyboard and mouse (and comparable software/hardware).

24C
Jan 15, 2005, 07:40 PM
I read the first 2 paragraphs and stopped. It would have been a waste of time. :)

I didn't stop, it was a waste of time, but I was only waiting for the kettle to boil:)

hcuar
Jan 15, 2005, 07:40 PM
I think he's right. For $500, I would expect a keyboard and mouse, if not a display. A comparable PC, the T2984 from emachines includes a keyboard and mouse (and comparable software/hardware).

1) It's an eMachine.
2) I very much doubt that the software is comparable. I don't think any PC comes with anything near iLife.

fabsgwu
Jan 15, 2005, 07:43 PM
they just lowered the price of the apple keyboard and mouse to $29 each, much better than the $60 the keyboard used to cost... and I personnally prefer mice with at least two buttons and at minimum a scroll wheel.

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/72202/wo/rM2NwSTfqIIS3FPekvB2krtJuE8/0.0.11.1.0.6.21.1.6.1.0.0.0.1.0

but you're right, they should offer set packages with the mini.

Sigh.

I do think Apple would be sensible to offer a slightly reduced KB & Mouse package with the Mini purchase, but it's here nor there. Just look at the number of people on this board, right now who have put in orders for this machine - to add to their collection, to switch, to give to their parents... et cetera.

Sit back Bill, put away that cloudy crystal ball, take a chill pill and watch the real world.

Ensoniq
Jan 15, 2005, 07:51 PM
I think he's right. For $500, I would expect a keyboard and mouse, if not a display. A comparable PC, the T2984 from emachines includes a keyboard and mouse (and comparable software/hardware).

As someone who owns an eMachines (T2542), I can definitely say that it's really not comparable to the Mac mini. I use my eMachine for Quicken (since Quicken for Mac is a joke) and some general web use. I don't do anything fancy with it, but since I'm a computer tech I need to know both PCs and Macs. (And have been working with both for over 20 years.) But my recently purchased iBook 1.2 GHz 12" runs circles around my PC.

There is no PC software I've ever seen that comes close to iLife. Windows XP is far from being close to OS X. My PC probably runs faster in some benchmarks, but on a day to day basis I'd rather work on my old 400 MHz G3 iMac (Grape, baby!). And in mosts light tasks, there is no difference between my 5 year old iMac and a recent eMachines model. Only when you start doing serious number crunching or game playing would you notice.

I happen to think the Mac mini is a great machine, for what it is. I think people that are spending close to $1000 for a fully loaded Mac mini when the G5 iMac is only $1300 are wasting their money. But it's two different targets. The Mac mini was built to attract two special crowds...PC switchers who already have the monitor/keyboard/mouse and want the lowest possible price, or the "Cube Lover" type who will buy this "cheap" computer fully loaded for $1000+ with a $1000 20" Cinema Display.

Those people are find with spending $2000 to be part of a special "clique" of people who will knowingly buy a less-powerful machine than the G5s that are available. But right now the Mac mini is Apple's coolest machine, G5 or not, and that itself guarantees Apple's will sell a ton of them.

Power-hounds will buy the iMac or the PowerMac. That's because power-hounds SHOULD do that, and Apple knows for that reason that their iMac and PowerMac lines are not in jeopardy.

Apple's mini slogan should have been:

"Introducing the Mac mini ... for Switchers and Cliquers". :)

mklos
Jan 15, 2005, 08:04 PM
I think he's right. For $500, I would expect a keyboard and mouse, if not a display. A comparable PC, the T2984 from emachines includes a keyboard and mouse (and comparable software/hardware).

I think your both wrong. You get things that aren't even available on most $499 PCs:

1. DVI Port (*VGA too with an adapter) Most PCs come with ONLY VGA...
2. FireWire 400
3. Ethernet (I know some come with it, but most don't)
4. CDRW/DVD Combo Drive (Most $499 PCs come with a 52x CDROM)
5. ATI Radeon 9200 Pro (32 MB of RAM NOT SHARED RAM!) Most if not all $499 PCs use shared RAM for video.

6. iLife '05 (NOTHING on the PC side compares to it)
7. Quicken 2005 (possibly 2004, but you get the point)
8. AppleWorks (yes a crappy office suite, but at least you get one!)
9. AirPort Extreme/Bluetooth ready...PCs don't have it available (PCI Cards yes I know, but not internal)

10. Mac OS X.3.x (Winblows DOES NOT compare to it.)


$499 PCs come with very little, if any software at all. Crap like real player and Winblows Media player don't count as they're free anyways. You don't get any games, office suites, financial software, etc...

Where's the software/hardware comparison???

Now to get back at me...go out and spend an hour or so looking for a $499 or slightly higher PC with these, or most of these options and make up some kind of story that nobody will buy.

xtbfx
Jan 15, 2005, 08:19 PM
I think everyone is forgetting the point here.

Apple puts out the mini with no monitor, keyboard, mouse because it's primary target is switchers. Everyone that uses a PC already has a monitor, mouse and keyboard that they are familiar with. Why make them 'switch' to a one button mouse and different keyboard?

The whole point of the mini is to buy it, then plug it in to your existing setup, not buy everything else to go with it.

masterthespian
Jan 15, 2005, 08:39 PM
just one thing to say......who is Bill Palmer???????? :D

xtremdav45
Jan 15, 2005, 08:43 PM
Here is a simple solution Apple can do to handle the "PS/2 Keyboard/mouse" problem.

Sell adapters in the store that let you plug in a PS/2 Keyboard and Mouse then plug the adapter into a USB port. I believe Fry's Electronics had them for free after rebate this weekend. It would be a simple, and cheap solution for Apple to sell these in their stores.

And regarding the monitor problem, if Apple was interested in getting as many mac mini's out as possible, they could have their employees tell people that they could go to Best Buy and buy a $100 monitor instead of the $999 display Apple makes.

Finn
Jan 15, 2005, 08:54 PM
Eventually the proof of the pudding is in the eating. And I wonder: will Bill eat his words if he is proven wrong?

Mav451
Jan 15, 2005, 09:02 PM
PS/2 to USB adapters have some serious issues, at least on the PC side. While USB::PS/2 converters have no lag issues, gamers have had problems with PS/2::USB converters giving a shoddy connection. E.g., mouse stops responding for the slightest second, or your keyboard dropping a few letters.

It has been said that the native connection is the best. USB to USB. PS/2 to PS/2.

mklos
Jan 15, 2005, 09:13 PM
Here is a simple solution Apple can do to handle the "PS/2 Keyboard/mouse" problem.

Sell adapters in the store that let you plug in a PS/2 Keyboard and Mouse then plug the adapter into a USB port. I believe Fry's Electronics had them for free after rebate this weekend. It would be a simple, and cheap solution for Apple to sell these in their stores.

And regarding the monitor problem, if Apple was interested in getting as many mac mini's out as possible, they could have their employees tell people that they could go to Best Buy and buy a $100 monitor instead of the $999 display Apple makes.

PS2 to USB adapters aren't very reliable. You can buy a USB keyboard for as little as $10, and a GOOD USB Optical Mouse for as little as $10. So for $20 you can have a good USB keyboard and mouse.

As for a display.... Well I think its time that Apple release a 17" Widescreen Aluminum Display. They already have the screen. Knock off the FireWire ports and just keep the USB ports. Sell it for around $500 to $600, and offer a discount when buying this with the Mini to attract customers to this display. I think this would also help PowerMac sales. I want a PowerMac very badly, and I want a matching display, but paying $2400 for a PowerMac and $1000 for a display is a little much.

2GMario
Jan 15, 2005, 09:14 PM
maybe its just me and the fact that i am in a extreamly ****** mood right now, but does it sound like to anyone else that hes litterally screaming at the reader ?

i havent read the entire article as i cannot even comprehend what this persons problem is with apple. It appears that he thinks every single thing apple has done to date has either been a waste of time, money or both.

im not going to go into everything apple has done right, most of us are apple users and most of us allready know the success of the ipod, g5, etc... but i will offer my 2 cents

i have a use for a mac mini. i have a dual 1.8 G5, and i have a ibook 12 inch.

I have the extreme power on 1 hand, and i have the extreme portability on the other.

BUT, i am also a computer junky, i have numerous spare parts laying around my entire house. litterly, keyboards, hard drives, memory, all kinds of ****

could i walk into the apple store on the 22nd, and walk out with just the mini ? yes, i have the rest of the stuff.

could ur average person do the same ? probably not, but heres my point.

For those of us that have a G5, ibook, powerbook, etc... the mac mini is a nice addition. ur not gonna spend another 2k+ on a g5 when u can easily spend $500 now on a mini and get by for a maybe not primary pc.

your average user on the other hand will see the add in compusa or walk by the store, and say, look, a apple for $500, i've heard of apple before, we need a new pc, lets stop in and check it out.

It is then the sole purpose of the salesman to then educate the buyer and say look, yes this is a mac, yes it runs OS X, no u will never get virus's, and this is a fine pc, but if you have a bit more cash, here is a even better iMac, or a far superior G5.

does this person really think, if you called up dell looking to purchase their crap $500 pc that the salesman is gonna let u go on that alone ? that there would be no chance of a upsale ?

i cannot agree totally with the no keyboard and no mouse deal. seriously, lets face it, i have yet to see a new PC come with a usb keyboard or mouse. i recently installed a brand new Dell at a neighbors house, pretty high end one, not the run of the mill crap $500 job, and it came with a ps2 keyboard and mouse.

in my opinion, for those of us with a Mac of any form allready, this is a pc that we can use as a extra one around the house, etc... without spending a ton on a iMac or G5 again.

for those of you without a Apple allready, prepare for a upsale when u go into the store.

My 2 cents.
-Mario

Littleodie914
Jan 15, 2005, 09:16 PM
I think your both wrong. You get things that aren't even available on most $499 PCs:

1. DVI Port (*VGA too with an adapter) Most PCs come with ONLY VGA...
2. FireWire 400
3. Ethernet (I know some come with it, but most don't)
4. CDRW/DVD Combo Drive (Most $499 PCs come with a 52x CDROM)
5. ATI Radeon 9200 Pro (32 MB of RAM NOT SHARED RAM!) Most if not all $499 PCs use shared RAM for video.

6. iLife '05 (NOTHING on the PC side compares to it)
7. Quicken 2005 (possibly 2004, but you get the point)
8. AppleWorks (yes a crappy office suite, but at least you get one!)
9. AirPort Extreme/Bluetooth ready...PCs don't have it available (PCI Cards yes I know, but not internal)

10. Mac OS X.3.x (Winblows DOES NOT compare to it.)


$499 PCs come with very little, if any software at all. Crap like real player and Winblows Media player don't count as they're free anyways. You don't get any games, office suites, financial software, etc...

Where's the software/hardware comparison???

Now to get back at me...go out and spend an hour or so looking for a $499 or slightly higher PC with these, or most of these options and make up some kind of story that nobody will buy.Couldn't have said it better myself. And I honestly don't see how he can believe that all PC's 3 or 4 years old are using 15" CRT monitors... I have a 15" CRT that came with our 68k powermac nearly 10 years ago :eek:

kugino
Jan 15, 2005, 09:25 PM
I think everyone is forgetting the point here.

Apple puts out the mini with no monitor, keyboard, mouse because it's primary target is switchers. Everyone that uses a PC already has a monitor, mouse and keyboard that they are familiar with. Why make them 'switch' to a one button mouse and different keyboard?

The whole point of the mini is to buy it, then plug it in to your existing setup, not buy everything else to go with it.

well, bill palmer's point is that the PC keyboard won't be compatible...for example, where the heck is the Command key on a PC keyboard? so, they're almost forced to get the keyboard/mouse combo...and that, he argues, is asinine. maybe he's right about that, but i still think it's going to sell well.

Yvan256
Jan 15, 2005, 10:07 PM
Seriously, is this guy for real? How can anyone take this guy seriously when the first sentence starts off like this?

Well, the Mac mini is small, but not THAT small. ;)

But yeah, his comments do seem to come from an 8-years old who's just mad and can't find any real arguments.

You don't see ME shouting like crazy that a 40GB iPod is just too much room and that NOBODY ON THE PLANET has 40GB of music... or some other crazy nonsense.

Bleh, who's Bill Palmer anyway? Is he a writer for a paper or something, or just a crazy kid with a webpage?

Yvan256
Jan 15, 2005, 10:08 PM
I think he's right. For $500, I would expect a keyboard and mouse, if not a display. A comparable PC, the T2984 from emachines includes a keyboard and mouse (and comparable software/hardware).

That eMachine still doesn't run OS X nor iLife. I think I'll pass.

Besides, I already have my display, keyb... bah, never mind, you don't get it either. :cool:

Yvan256
Jan 15, 2005, 10:11 PM
The Mac mini was built to attract two special crowds...PC switchers who already have the monitor/keyboard/mouse and want the lowest possible price, or the "Cube Lover" type who will buy this "cheap" computer fully loaded for $1000+ with a $1000 20" Cinema Display.

Wouldn't they need to stack two or three Mac mini's in order to replace their "cube"? (unless they want a flat square!) :D

Yvan256
Jan 15, 2005, 10:17 PM
PS2 to USB adapters aren't very reliable.

Hum, not that I doubt you, but do you have proofs of what kind/type/IC chip works bad, and which ones work ok?

Or are they ALL bad?

Maybe you only tried adapters that weren't good, but there's good ones out there?

macFanDave
Jan 15, 2005, 10:22 PM
Oh, yeah, it's Bill Palmer's credibility going away like that load of crap he just inflicted on us.

>> Who is Bill Palmer?

He's some guy with a Web site who recently switched to the Mac platform and had written some interesting stuff. Frankly, I'm shocked by this rant. I wonder what kind of personality meltdown he suffered that led to this.

And the real question is: Who is John Galt?

rjwill246
Jan 15, 2005, 10:26 PM
Why on earth would you guys even think of giving this piece space? This is NOT an official article from anyone. It is absolute scatological detritus.
Please... if your going to headline something at least consider the source!!!
It would be like posting something from Aiden as a headline... get a grip!!!

legalnut
Jan 15, 2005, 10:27 PM
Read his well thought out and eminently rational piece and you'll see he makes valid points all around. I find it very disheartening that mac faithful don't value differing points of view and are very quick to flame or disparage anyone who doesn't drink the Apple kool ade....

Where is Apple's affordable monitor for 1st time buyers or folks who would simply like to buy a new monitor ? Answer that one smart asses ?

Why does Apple charge exhorbitant amounts for additional ram ?

Do your own pricing for an optimal system and you'll see that his arguments are right on the mark ...

I'll grant you one thing the mac mini will be successful amongst Apple's current installed base as they may use it in conjunction or in a complementary fashion with their current set ups ... and it'll be successful as a media PC (DVI connection on Plasma and LCD TVs) but in it's stated goal of converting users of Windows-based systems it'll be an abysmal failure ... jmho (spare me the flames)

macnulty
Jan 15, 2005, 10:38 PM
Who is Bill Palmer and why should I care ?

nagromme
Jan 15, 2005, 10:39 PM
I will throw in one more vote against eMachines. A client recommended them to me, and the prices was right... and the machine is utter garbage. Multiple component failures--and of course they didn't stop when the warranty did. Service was astonishingly bad too--although I hear they've improved that. Maybe. I doubt they've improved on using cheap parts.

Also, one of the most masochistic Windows-addicted people I know vowed this week to get a Mac--maybe a Mini. I was astonished.

The Mini's appeal really does seem to be magically breaking through the shroud of ignorance. At least for some, that "4" after the dollar sign has the desired effect.

narco
Jan 15, 2005, 10:45 PM
I don't particularly agree with the article, but he does make a couple good points. There are people who would get frustrated if his scenarios did occur, but that's only if the salesperson was not doing his job. The whole point of salespeople is to educate the consumer -- I have faith that Apple employees will ask all the necessary questions in order for the buyer to have the perfect switching experience.

If anything, the dedicated Mac users wanting to upgrade their old G4's will be enough to make the mini Mac an instant success.

Fishes,
narco.

Yvan256
Jan 15, 2005, 10:47 PM
well, bill palmer's point is that the PC keyboard won't be compatible...for example, where the heck is the Command key on a PC keyboard? so, they're almost forced to get the keyboard/mouse combo...and that, he argues, is asinine. maybe he's right about that, but i still think it's going to sell well.

Won't Control, Alt, Windows or "Windows right-click" be mapped to the Mac's "command" key?

nagromme
Jan 15, 2005, 10:50 PM
I find it very disheartening that mac faithful don't value differing points of view and are very quick to flame or disparage anyone who doesn't drink the Apple kool ade....

Nice troll attempt--but we're SO used to that around here :o

Bill's "points of view" were buried in masses of his very OWN flames--that's why people are calling him on it. Better-crafted flames than your average troll can manage, though :)

nagromme
Jan 15, 2005, 10:53 PM
Won't Control, Alt, Windows or "Windows right-click" be mapped to the Mac's "command" key?

You're right of course, the keys are mapped--that's why you can buy any old keyboard you want, for ANY Mac. You can be sure that the Mini comes with an explanation of the Command key.

Bill Palmer's point is that an older PC has PS/2 devices, and the Mac needs USB. That's clear at Apple.com--and printed right on the box too. People can buy a USB keyboard cheap if they need to.

Yvan256
Jan 15, 2005, 11:00 PM
Read his well thought out and eminently rational piece and you'll see he makes valid points all around. I find it very disheartening that mac faithful don't value differing points of view and are very quick to flame or disparage anyone who doesn't drink the Apple kool ade....

First of all it's Kool-Aid (http://www.kraftfoods.com/koolaid/), secondly the guy is not only argumenting, he's flamming and trolling in a very childish way.

Where is Apple's affordable monitor for 1st time buyers or folks who would simply like to buy a new monitor ? Answer that one smart asses ?

It's nowhere. Apple doesn't offer a low-cost monitor. The Mac mini ain't aimed at people without a monitor. It's aimed at people who already have a monitor, keyboard and mouse. My proof? Apple doesn't even include a keyboard and mouse. Those new buyers should either get the iMac, or a Mac mini with a third-party display, keyboard and mouse. Nobody who buys the Mac mini based on price will buy a LCD display (too expensive). Apple does include a DVI->VGA adapter, so I'd suggest a good 15" CRT to go with their new Mac mini. And a nice Logitech keyboard and mouse.

Why does Apple charge exhorbitant amounts for additional ram ?

That, I have no idea. But even Mac zealots say the same thing: buy a Mac, upgrade the RAM from somewhere else. Almost nobody is on Apple's side for that particular point.

Do your own pricing for an optimal system and you'll see that his arguments are right on the mark ...

His arguments are only valid if you put OS X and iLife aside, which are the main points in choosing the Mac. Stop looking at hardware specs, that's not what makes your computer useful. Would you take a 1GHz P3 with 256MB RAM and Windows XP, or an Athlon XP 4000+ with 4GB and Windows 3.11? If this sounds stupid to you, understand that comparing OS X and Windows XP is basically the same thing.

I'll grant you one thing the mac mini will be successful amongst Apple's current installed base as they may use it in conjunction or in a complementary fashion with their current set ups ... and it'll be successful as a media PC (DVI connection on Plasma and LCD TVs) but in it's stated goal of converting users of Windows-based systems it'll be an abysmal failure ... jmho (spare me the flames)

The iMac was already a good seller, and the major points of complain about switchers was the price (fixed with the Mac mini) and not wanting to pay for gear we already have (also fixed with the Mac mini).

tocoolcjs
Jan 15, 2005, 11:02 PM
ok, this guy is really messed up.

did anyone else notice this guy, who seems to hate apple, actually pays for .mac? Doesn't that cost around $100 a year? I f he hates apple why pay tham any money?

(of course it could be a free trial account)

beg_ne
Jan 15, 2005, 11:24 PM
Don't value differing points? From what I can tell Bill Palmer is little more than a ranting lunatic with a bruised ego because he was wrong about there not being a Mac mini. See Mac360 for more on it ( http://www.mac360.com/index.php/mac360/more/mac_predictions_opinions_crow_eating_time/ )

Apple doesn't need to make their own afordable (aka. cheapo) monitors. The presumption is that switchers will already have one. And if not you can pick up a monitor at any store for cheap, including cheap CRT's during the online Apple Store checkout process. I don't really think Apple care's at all about people simply looking for a place to buy cheap CRT displays and IMO they shouldn't. It's like ranting why a Mercedes Dealership doesn't cater to people only looking to buy Mercedes branded $1.00 air fresheners for their cars.

RAM from Apple is ALWAYS more expensive, its a fact of life, but $75 extra to bump up to 512MB isn't THAT bad. Now the price for 1GB seems insane, but who would want to put a Gig in a machine like an Mac mini?

Pricing for an optimal system? Do you want us just to bump all the options to the max in the cart? Or make our own?

My optimal system doesn't include a Mac mini, mine is more along the lines of upgrading from a single processor PowerMac G5 to a dual one, with matching 20" displays.

For my dad, or sister, or friend the base model with 512MB of ram would be more than enough for them. And my opinion for most every Joe Nobody computer user out there.

I think the Mac mini will be a very big hit, among Mac and PC users alike.

Read his well thought out and eminently rational piece and you'll see he makes valid points all around. I find it very disheartening that mac faithful don't value differing points of view and are very quick to flame or disparage anyone who doesn't drink the Apple kool ade....

Where is Apple's affordable monitor for 1st time buyers or folks who would simply like to buy a new monitor ? Answer that one smart asses ?

Why does Apple charge exhorbitant amounts for additional ram ?

Do your own pricing for an optimal system and you'll see that his arguments are right on the mark ...

I'll grant you one thing the mac mini will be successful amongst Apple's current installed base as they may use it in conjunction or in a complementary fashion with their current set ups ... and it'll be successful as a media PC (DVI connection on Plasma and LCD TVs) but in it's stated goal of converting users of Windows-based systems it'll be an abysmal failure ... jmho (spare me the flames)

legalnut
Jan 15, 2005, 11:49 PM
Apple doesn't need to make their own afordable (aka. cheapo) monitors. The presumption is that switchers will already have one. And if not you can pick up a monitor at any store for cheap.

Why should someone (especially 1st time buyers) have to go elsewhere to put together a hodge podge fugly (mismatched monitor etc) system ? Don't underestimate the value of having an esthetically pleasing matching system. Apple should offer a cheap, comprehensive system if the demographic they're going after is the 1st time buyer or the switcher .... if they're aiming it at the installed base or media PC crowd then the mini is fine (as I already mentioned in my original post) ....

Why do other manufacturers (Dell, emachines, HP etc) deem it appropriate to offer full systems .... have they all collectively fallen on their heads ? I think not ... I believe it's Apple who has committed a faux pas here

Belly-laughs
Jan 15, 2005, 11:59 PM
the mini will cause a lot of interest, but for the majority of potenitial buyers i see the ibook or emac better choices. the mini is actually quite expensive once you start adding features.

i sort of agree with bill, it doesnt have what it takes. its rather disappointing. of course the hype will prove me wrong.

to me its utter bolloks. but, ooh no, im not among the target audience. but it could have been. easily.

legalnut
Jan 16, 2005, 12:09 AM
Besides what is exactly Apple's rationale in not offering a comprehensive system ? Their purported motivation is that switchers will have what it takes .... it's more likely that Apple wants to add to their bottom line (profits) by excluding monitor, keyboard and mouse OR they want to upsell people to the iMac when they figure out that a fully configured system doesn't stack up well from a pricing point of view with the iMac .... that my friends is very cynical but unfortunately TRUE

3Memos
Jan 16, 2005, 12:15 AM
I just had my brother-in-law over for dinner, and I showed him the Keynote where Steve intros the Mac mini. He definitely expressed a strong interest in buying one. And this is from someone who has never bought a PC new, always gets old PCs from work. He is still using a Pentium 200Mhz computer, which I think the Mini would be at least, at least 10x faster than what he is currently using.

Mav451
Jan 16, 2005, 12:38 AM
Wow...200Mhz P1's are like '96-97. I don't think even browsing is possible on that (Flash apps in web brwoser will kill it). If he's coming from 95/98 (which is all that it can run), he's in for a helluva surprise.

The mini will be like a G5 from his perspective =D

3Memos
Jan 16, 2005, 12:43 AM
Wow...200Mhz P1's are like '96-97. I don't think even browsing is possible on that (Flash apps in web brwoser will kill it). If he's coming from 95/98 (which is all that it can run), he's in for a helluva surprise.

The mini will be like a G5 from his perspective =D

I had been getting him to buy an iMac since 2001! His excuse was always that it was too expensive... I tended to agree with him, but still... If Mac mini can get to my brother-in-law, I'm 100% certain the mini will be a smashing success, and Apple will be kicking themselves for why they waited so long to introduce a low-cost, yet elegant computer.

He's a dentist by the way. Last year, they bought a half-million dollar house and furnished it with over 50K worth of furniture. Still, Macs seemed to expensive to be of value to them. Can you believe that?

Blue Velvet
Jan 16, 2005, 01:43 AM
"I'm going to eventually be proven right about this being a terrible idea."

:D

Watch this space...

24C
Jan 16, 2005, 03:05 AM
I don't particularly agree with the article, but he does make a couple good points. There are people who would get frustrated if his scenarios did occur, but that's only if the salesperson was not doing his job. The whole point of salespeople is to educate the consumer -- I have faith that Apple employees will ask all the necessary questions in order for the buyer to have the perfect switching experience. ...snip... narco.

He only makes 'good' points from a distorted point of view. Once you start from that point you just keep on sliding, although they might seem lucid enough, it is really only a comedic device from that point on.

OTH, your point about the sales experience at the AppleCentre is the key to dissolving his rantings, which is important, because that customer doesn't have to come into your retail store again.

BUT my real gripe with his diatribe is BYOKDM Mac mini is NOT a first time buyer arena...that's eMac/iMac territory. The Mac mini is for people who perceive it's a small, lower cost alternative, but only with a BYOKDM philosophy. For these folks finding low cost equipment, if their's aren't up to scratch, it's not an issue only a slight inconvenience.

The HUGE point to all of this, you might end up with a lower cost Apple system, using lower cost/borrowed peripherals, but essentially for most of these people the perceived Apple experience on the screen and day to day will be the similar to an iMac.

If you don't like it, you've tried and blown a lot less, but if you do...hello market share :)

Slightly off topic, If Apple were to offer a low cost 17" display, it's unlikely to be competitive to please the naysayers ;)

aswitcher
Jan 16, 2005, 04:10 AM
"I'm going to eventually be proven right about this being a terrible idea."

:D

Watch this space...


I think that sums it up...although I figure Bill will put his own spin on the next quaterly stats.

I read his stuff...have been reading it for a year+... and I cynically wonder if he went off the deep end to promote traffic to his site...He is not that selfunaware.

jvaska
Jan 16, 2005, 05:52 AM
I think he's right. For $500, I would expect a keyboard and mouse, if not a display. A comparable PC, the T2984 from emachines includes a keyboard and mouse (and comparable software/hardware).

Stupidest comparison I've ever read. An emachine?

People are in a fury over this Mac mini - most of them PC people. Why fight it? It's just another computer...

Which leads me to believe this could be just as big as some people predict. I'm still skeptical but I hope I'm proven wrong...

Mord
Jan 16, 2005, 08:35 AM
see there is a nice little box in the online apple store for adding a keyboard and mouse for $40 which is very cheap, most pc's come with usb keyboards and mice in the last two years, even my school uses usb keyboards and mice and that says allot, the moniter thing is silly apple sells 17" crt's just not at there retail store and i presume you can order one from a retail store.

the whole point of the mac mini is it's a drop in replacement to a pc tower he is an idiot not to see that, mini's will fly off the shelves.

Mord
Jan 16, 2005, 08:36 AM
well, bill palmer's point is that the PC keyboard won't be compatible...for example, where the heck is the Command key on a PC keyboard? so, they're almost forced to get the keyboard/mouse combo...and that, he argues, is asinine. maybe he's right about that, but i still think it's going to sell well.

it's the key with the windows icon on it :rolleyes:

Dont Hurt Me
Jan 16, 2005, 08:48 AM
I think the minimac is just what we thought it would be a watered down crippled old G4 based machine in new clothes. nothing more nothing less. It will help get some new mac users but was the monitor in emac worth 300 bucks?? these are some big questions and when you compare a minimac to a iMac the imac wins hands down when needing a monitor,keyboard and mouse and something else called memory. Compared to the emac you can see how apple charges crazy for what is a $100 monitor or less.The author makes some very good points. Its clear Jobs didnt show much emotion on this one. Since the cpu's arent moving forward apple is moving backward to introduce something it can call new. Another all in one machine without a monitor is still another all in one. Fact is apple is using handicapps and very poor old video soldered on to differentiate between one model from another and of all Apple products NOT one comes with a standard videochip/card that the industry would considerer modern. The 2.5 G5 at $3000 still only comes with a 9600 which is only ho hum in todays tech world. Pushing 9200s & fx5200s is so out of character for what is suppose to be the cream of the crop of the computing industry. MiniMac will get some switchers but doesnt seem to be the value you think it is at first glance.

Blue Velvet
Jan 16, 2005, 08:53 AM
when you compare a minimac to a iMac the imac wins hands down when needing a monitor,keyboard and mouse and something else called memory....

The 2.5 G5 at $3000 still only comes with a 9600 which is only ho hum in todays tech world. Pushing 9200s & fx5200s is so out of character for what is suppose to be the cream of the crop of the computing industry. MiniMac will get some switchers but doesnt seem to be the value you think it is at first glance.

Mini Mac costs a fraction of the iMac. How can you compare them?

As mentioned before, everywhere else on this forum, your usual PC at this price has integrated graphics...

I use a dual 2.5 every day at work. How is the latest video-card going to help with design or video-editing? How many people went out to buy a dual 2.5 for gaming?

Get real.

Dont Hurt Me
Jan 16, 2005, 09:01 AM
Mini Mac costs a fraction of the iMac. How can you compare them?

As mentioned before, everywhere else on this forum, your usual PC at this price has integrated graphics...

I use a dual 2.5 every day at work. How is the latest video-card going to help with design or video-editing? How many people went out to buy a dual 2.5 for gaming?

Get real.Take a mini add the required memory, keyboard and mouse and monitor what do you end up with?add bluetooth? its no longer a $500 machine is it.
Consumers game anyone who thinks they dont better look at the Mac site and this sites gaming threads. Consumers are gamers fact. No spin some people use their machines for something other then boring work. :eek: I know this isnt a gamers machine but then Apple doesnt make one machine with video that consumers can game on. not one.. hence they seem to go backwards on video to get any kind of seperation from its growing line of all in ones. Mini is another all in one without a monitor.

Blue Velvet
Jan 16, 2005, 09:07 AM
Take a mini add the required memory, keyboard and mouse and monitor what do you end up with?add bluetooth? its no longer a $500 machine is it.
Consumers game anyone who thinks they dont better look at the Mac site and this sites gaming threads. Consumers are gamers fact. No spin some people use their machines for something other then boring work. :eek: I know this isnt a gamers machine but then Apple doesnt make one machine with video that consumers can game on. not one.. hence they seem to go backwards on video to get any kind of seperation from its growing line of all in ones. Mini is another all in one without a monitor.

256mb RAM is OK for people who this machine is marketed at. Most people don't care about Bluetooth either.
Apple Keyboard & Mouse: US$58 tops, some places are bundling them for free.
"Consumers are gamers fact" Complete BS. Most people I know that own Macs are not gamers... where did you get this 'fact' from?

Dont Hurt Me
Jan 16, 2005, 09:13 AM
how many billions did the gaming industry make last year? If most people you know dont game what are they old farts?or toddlers? Apple has some big problems at the moment with all the money they have. One they dont see the TV for some reason and dont think people Game. Maybe this is why they have the love affair with fx5200 and lesser video. I know I know mini isnt aimed at the gamer, if you want to game you need a powermac or xbox.

Blue Velvet
Jan 16, 2005, 09:19 AM
If most people you know dont game what are they old farts?or toddlers?

What a stupid, childish, moronic thing to say.

All of them are busy people many of them are design professionals, journalists and managers none of them really want to spend hours in front of another screen zapping things when they could be having a life...

Grow up.

Dont Hurt Me
Jan 16, 2005, 09:25 AM
What a stupid, childish, moronic thing to say.

All of them are busy people many of them are design professionals, journalists and managers none of them really want to spend hours in front of another screen zapping things when they could be having a life...

Grow up.
Lighten up, Let go for a little. :D work all day ...........well you know the rest. Pick up a good game title and chill and enjoy. In Fact its about time for me to jump in my P-40 :D

Fredstar
Jan 16, 2005, 09:35 AM
I wish people didn't complain about the graphics card in the mini. And stopped saying things like the FX 5200 (that i have and use on my imac) makes games unplayable. They don't, unreal tournament plays nicely at native resolution on my imac with the full settings. But i did not buy the imac as a gaming machine, i represent a huge majority of the market who game occasionally and i can do that. I have an Xbox to game. It makes sense.
A HUGE majority of the computer owners and buyers do NOT game, it is a simple fact. Ok some of that group occasionally do but it really isn't that big. If i or any of my friends play games it is mostly on the PS2/Xbox. I am sorry to say this but if most of your friends spend a majority of their time playing games on the computer then you have a bunch of geeks as friends (i don't have a bunch of old farts as u say) and if they want to game then they should buy a crud pc with a graphics card or fork out for a Powermac if they want really good game performance.
The only reservation i have is that i can't use Motion AS effectively with my imac but it is still useable.

abhishekit
Jan 16, 2005, 10:30 AM
That was Bill Palmer ? :eek:
Having seen his 'developers developers developers speech' I thought may be the man is good in writing his thoughts down rather than saying it out loud. Afterall one has to be good at some kind of presentation to reach to the top of an organization..
I was so wrong.

Timelessblur
Jan 16, 2005, 11:04 AM
There is really one 2 things that I think are stupid about the mini mac. One no keyboard and mouse comes with it.
2nd is there are only 2 USB ports on it. Now the problem of the over price apple keyboard and mouse not coming with is people general are not going to pay that much for it. So they get there own USB keyboard and mouse and each of them there own USB slots. I think 2 USB slots on a mondarn computer is not enough 4 should be the min on a modarn computer. (keyboard, mouse, printer and then one free one)
Beyond that I think the mini is really good at it target market.

Dont Hurt Me
Jan 16, 2005, 11:11 AM
He makes very valid points about the monitor situation in a Apple store. you want a monitor may i show you the $1000 20" or may i show the $300 dollar more emac. That is a fair argument and i know this is aimed at those with these things allready but still a fair argument. Not selling a real 17" LCD in todays world is silly as is asking $300 for the same thing with monitor/mouse Emac.

wrldwzrd89
Jan 16, 2005, 11:15 AM
There is really one 2 things that I think are stupid about the mini mac. One no keyboard and mouse comes with it.
2nd is there are only 2 USB ports on it. Now the problem of the over price apple keyboard and mouse not coming with is people general are not going to pay that much for it. So they get there own USB keyboard and mouse and each of them there own USB slots. I think 2 USB slots on a mondarn computer is not enough 4 should be the min on a modarn computer. (keyboard, mouse, printer and then one free one)
Beyond that I think the mini is really good at it target market.
This is one the few posts of yours I agree with. Bundling the Apple Keyboard and Apple Mouse as well as doubling the number of USB ports would make the Mac mini MUCH more appealing to me (and I'd assume to you too). That still doesn't mean the Mac mini is in my target market though ;)

Mord
Jan 16, 2005, 11:17 AM
how many billions did the gaming industry make last year? If most people you know dont game what are they old farts?or toddlers? Apple has some big problems at the moment with all the money they have. One they dont see the TV for some reason and dont think people Game. Maybe this is why they have the love affair with fx5200 and lesser video. I know I know mini isnt aimed at the gamer, if you want to game you need a powermac or xbox.


that is plain out of line, ultimatly playing games is a complete waste of time and the world as a whole would be better off without it, think of the wasted man hours spent essentially twiddleing your thumbs, it's a dead end habbit, i play games on my xbox because i use it to play xbox live with my friends (not wierdos s meet on xbox live but real life people i know), you know most girls dont play games (sterotype but true) are you saying that they all need to pay the premium for a high end video card?

the number of people i know that spend there lives sitting behind a screen playing counterstrike or whatever scares me mainly because i know i could have very easyly become like that if i owned a pc.


none of this is an excuse for apple pushing crappy cards they still need to keep up but to say that all people that dont play games are old farts of toddlers a gross misconception of the world, look around the screen of your alienware box and see the world.

Blue Velvet
Jan 16, 2005, 11:22 AM
Have been spending some time recently on other forums, particularly UK tech ones where Mac users are hugely outnumbered.

There have been loads of people saying...
"I want one. They're so cheap & so good-looking etc."
or "I haven't used a Mac in years but I might get one of these..."

Mark my words. Apple know what they're doing...

Dont Hurt Me
Jan 16, 2005, 11:28 AM
Have been spending some time recently on other forums, particularly UK tech ones where Mac users are hugely outnumbered.

There have been loads of people saying...
"I want one. They're so cheap & so good-looking etc."
or "I haven't used a Mac in years but I might get one of these..."

Mark my words. Apple know what they're doing...
Dont be so sure if you have followed them for years then you know they can screw up. I dont think the mini is a lemon and i do think it will bring in new users but you know there will be those buyers who walk into a Apple store wanting a monitor to go with it. That is going to be an interesting situation for the Mac salesman isnt it.

24C
Jan 16, 2005, 11:32 AM
There is really one 2 things that I think are stupid about the mini mac. One no keyboard and mouse comes with it.
2nd is there are only 2 USB ports on it. Now the problem of the over price apple keyboard and mouse not coming with is people general are not going to pay that much for it. So they get there own USB keyboard and mouse and each of them there own USB slots. I think 2 USB slots on a mondarn computer is not enough 4 should be the min on a modarn computer. (keyboard, mouse, printer and then one free one)
Beyond that I think the mini is really good at it target market.

Fair comment, maybe they didn't want to puts 4 ports on it for max power considerations? I dunno, maybe we'll get a small 17" monitor with a few ports on it, or fit an internal bluetooth option or we just use a powered 4 port hub.

Personally my gripe with the input devices, is I'd like to be able to buy the internal bluetooth module, and have a wireless keyboard with a trackpad/trackball built in...cos it's hard balancing the keyboard on one knee and placing the mousemat on the other, whilst it's hooked up to my DVI TV input ;)

Blue Velvet
Jan 16, 2005, 11:32 AM
Dont be so sure if you have followed them for years then you know they can screw up. I dont think the mini is a lemon and i do think it will bring in new users but you know there will be those buyers who walk into a Apple store wanting a monitor to go with it. That is going to be an interesting situation for the Mac salesman isnt it.

There are billions of places to buy monitors... and I'm sure Mini resellers will have a good range to recommend from, if not a bundled deal.

The Apple Store staff are usually well-trained and will point people inthe right direction.

Also, don't forget that Apple already sells 3rd-party accessories on its website. Nothing stopping them from offering monitors there...

There aren't that many people that actually need a Cinema Display... honestly.

cslewis
Jan 16, 2005, 11:48 AM
I believe apple should release 17'' and 15'' monitors, $599 and $399 respectively. It seems as though the Dell buying drones don't care that they're that small. In fact, i'm perfectly content with my 17'' eMac.

narco
Jan 16, 2005, 12:10 PM
I just find it funny how people have been complaining about the Mac price for years, now they're complaining about the low-end mini Mac. I think people are afraid of change -- when they see a company not adding a monitor, keyboard and mouse to their computer, it's just absolutely insane to some.

But it is amusing, watching people trying to dig up any negative dirt -- seems like they're getting desperate.

Fishes,
narco.

settledown
Jan 16, 2005, 12:12 PM
I just have to say one thing,

Bill is a jackass. In the simplest of definitions of that word.

Mord
Jan 16, 2005, 12:16 PM
it will and has been read.

narco
Jan 16, 2005, 12:25 PM
I believe most people buy consoles for gaming; I always thought playing games on a computer was kind of nerdy.

Fishes,
narco.

dejo
Jan 16, 2005, 01:03 PM
I just find it funny how people have been complaining about the Mac price for years, now they're complaining about the low-end mini Mac. I think people are afraid of change -- when they see a company not adding a monitor, keyboard and mouse to their computer, it's just absolutely insane to some.

But it is amusing, watching people trying to dig up any negative dirt -- seems like they're getting desperate.

Fishes,
narco.

Hear, hear, narco. Had Apple included a keyboard and mouse, I bet we would've hear the same number of complaints along the lines of: "I already have a keyboard and mouse; why do I have to pay extra for something I don't need?" or "I don't want Apple's stupid one-button mouse; why can't I choose my own?" Apple is damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

24C
Jan 16, 2005, 01:13 PM
Naysayers exist everywhere, and it's always the same with any new Apple product or even an update...it should have this or why did they do this.

Most recent was the iPod mini, that was slagged to death, and look what a turn around that was...but whatever we write it'll never change, sometimes it's amusing what gets typed up, sometimes it's not...maybe we should all stop posting and play games instead ;)

montex
Jan 16, 2005, 02:07 PM
I know I'm late to this discussion, but here are my 2 cents. Bill Palmer is not a Mac-hater by any means and is, in fact, a Mac fanatic of the highest order. True, his latest posts have been a bit... dark. But try to read between the lines. He spent months thinking of reasonable, logical and economic reasons for why the headless iMac was a bad idea. He's invested a great deal of time and thought on this issue and took a stand on what seemed like a solid theory.

I think he's fallen into the same trap that many people, convinced of thier own infallible logic, have regarding evidence contrary to their ideas. History is full of smart people who are too attached to their own brilliant ideas. Remeber how it took the Catholic Church 500 years to admit Galileo was right? Bill will come along. Eventually.

I should also point out that last year Bill Palmer devoted quite a few bytes talking about the latest Mac he bought, a titanium Powerbook G4 (I think). It must not feel that great to know the Mac Mini is a more powerful computer than the obsolete computer he spent more money on.

So, yeah, Bill is in a bit of a snit right now. But don't get too down on him. He's a good blogger and his heart is in the right place.

kugino
Jan 16, 2005, 03:48 PM
Hear, hear, narco. Had Apple included a keyboard and mouse, I bet we would've hear the same number of complaints along the lines of: "I already have a keyboard and mouse; why do I have to pay extra for something I don't need?" or "I don't want Apple's stupid one-button mouse; why can't I choose my own?" Apple is damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

yes. while i do wish a keyboard/mouse were included, you are correct in that no matter what apple did, complaints would have surfaced. "why only 2 USB instead of 3?" "why no optical output for my home entertainment system?" if apple had put in a 9600 pro, people would have asked, "why not the 9800?"

but it's one thing to quibble about specifics...bill palmer acts as if the whole company is in trouble because of the mac mini. not only is the MM a bad product, he says, but everyone at apple (save jobs) should be fired immediately? but not only that, palmer seems to argue that they should be fired regardless of how the MM sells...

3Memos
Jan 16, 2005, 03:53 PM
The sad twist of all of this is that now that Apple has gone ahead and made the mistake, I'm going to eventually be proven right about this being a terrible idea, but the whole time I'll be wishing like heck that I was wrong. I can't tell you how much I'd like to see the Mini Mac succeed. I could care less about being wrong or right. But as much as I'd like to be wrong about this, I know I'm not.

This is guy is a wussy. He hopes he is not wrong, but in case he isn't, he'll rub it in our faces. This guy is too much.

tech4all
Jan 16, 2005, 04:11 PM
Hear, hear, narco. Had Apple included a keyboard and mouse, I bet we would've hear the same number of complaints along the lines of: "I already have a keyboard and mouse; why do I have to pay extra for something I don't need?" or "I don't want Apple's stupid one-button mouse; why can't I choose my own?" Apple is damned if they do, and damned if they don't.

I do agree with that. To me it seems many 'Mac haters' will find anything they can to put down Apple/Macs. Because in their mind Apple sucks, but they really don't have a reason for it. So even when you give them an affordable machine with overall good specs they say it sucks. People have to be open-minded and do some research on computers and really see what they're getting for the money.

People will also say, "256MB ram", WTF can I do with that. I can't play games those specs. Well not $h!t, Apple is targeting gamers with the Mac mini, they are targeting people would use M$ Office, email, internet, and other low processer intense apps. If you want a gaming rig, get a G5 or a PC.

:)

And oh yeah, Bill Palmer, reminded me of Steve Ballmer :rolleyes: :D

billyboy
Jan 16, 2005, 04:57 PM
I think old or young Bill got all twisted up on specs and forgot OSX and iLife. He also made a good point that a lot of "disinterested in IT but we need a bloody home PC for emailing and letter writing in the 21st century" users will not have a compatible keyboard and mouse. But come on, for a few dollars more you can pick up really cheap USB crap, plug it into a Mac mini and feel like a whole new computer walked into your life.

I sit here working happily with my works new Mac maxi (aka a PowerMac G5) and plugged into it I have a logitech keyboard with an alt key, a gyroscopic mouse for PC (no sign of Mac compatability anywhere on the box) and a 17" VGA monitor, ie everything I am using is compatible with the crappy PC now gathering dust under the desk. I look forward to plugging the same sort of hand me down perip`herals into a new Mac mini.

Timelessblur
Jan 16, 2005, 05:17 PM
yes. while i do wish a keyboard/mouse were included, you are correct in that no matter what apple did, complaints would have surfaced. "why only 2 USB instead of 3?" "why no optical output for my home entertainment system?" if apple had put in a 9600 pro, people would have asked, "why not the 9800?"

but it's one thing to quibble about specifics...bill palmer acts as if the whole company is in trouble because of the mac mini. not only is the MM a bad product, he says, but everyone at apple (save jobs) should be fired immediately? but not only that, palmer seems to argue that they should be fired regardless of how the MM sells...


I think the 2 USB ports are really not enough. There really need to be 4 since right now you loose them both to keyboard and mouse. So where are you going ot plug in your printer? or a USB flash drive. 4 is personly I think the most well round number. for me it not enough but after 4 I can under stand the need for a hub. I am using a minal of 4 of the one in the back of my computer at all time on my computer and some times up to 6 but I have more stuff plug in

Blue Velvet
Jan 16, 2005, 05:20 PM
...and feel like a whole new computer walked into your life...

Nice... :) I like it.

You're not in advertising/copywriting are you?

daveL
Jan 16, 2005, 06:20 PM
I think he's right. For $500, I would expect a keyboard and mouse, if not a display. A comparable PC, the T2984 from emachines includes a keyboard and mouse (and comparable software/hardware).
Comparable software? What are you smoking? What does the T2984 offer that compares to OS X and iLife '05? Get real!

powermac99
Jan 16, 2005, 06:59 PM
I think the 2 USB ports are really not enough. There really need to be 4 since right now you loose them both to keyboard and mouse. So where are you going ot plug in your printer? or a USB flash drive. 4 is personly I think the most well round number. for me it not enough but after 4 I can under stand the need for a hub. I am using a minal of 4 of the one in the back of my computer at all time on my computer and some times up to 6 but I have more stuff plug in

You forget that the keyboard has two on it so you essentially don't lose any ports with the keyboard and mouse. 1 of 2 on the Mac mini is taken up by the keyboard, 1 of 2 on the keyboard is taken up by the mouse. That leaves you with 2 available USB ports.

wrldwzrd89
Jan 16, 2005, 08:16 PM
You forget that the keyboard has two on it so you essentially don't lose any ports with the keyboard and mouse. 1 of 2 on the Mac mini is taken up by the keyboard, 1 of 2 on the keyboard is taken up by the mouse. That leaves you with 2 available USB ports.
That statement assumes that Mac mini buyers use Apple's keyboard, which is far from certain to be the case. Therefore, Timelessblur's complaint is still valid.

afields
Jan 16, 2005, 09:08 PM
Well I do agree with bill on one thing. This mini absolutely needs to have a mouse and keyboard with it, thats pretty ridiculous. I think that by the next revision apple will wise up.

3Memos
Jan 16, 2005, 09:15 PM
Well I do agree with bill on one thing. This mini absolutely needs to have a mouse and keyboard with it, thats pretty ridiculous. I think that by the next revision apple will wise up.

It at least needs the keyboard for sure. There are labels for volume and disk eject. I would wish Apple re-introduced the power button on the keyboard. Sometimes Apple will make such wacko decisions.

xsedrinam
Jan 16, 2005, 10:51 PM
Bill Palmer? Is he the chubby, CEO hyper-ventilator who ranted around the stage chanting "developers" at a M$ Convention some time ago? I have the movie link if anyone's interested. Or was that Steve somebody?
X

dejo
Jan 16, 2005, 11:03 PM
Well I do agree with bill on one thing. This mini absolutely needs to have a mouse and keyboard with it, thats pretty ridiculous. I think that by the next revision apple will wise up.

No, it does not ABSOLUTELY NEED to come with a keyboard and mouse. There are plenty of people purchasing it who already have these peripherals and don't want to pay extra for them. I believe Apple will not reverse this decision and include a keyboard and mouse with every Mac mini, whether you want them included or not. Now, they might go ahead and offer some 'bundles' but they will never remove the option to purchase a Mac mini without them.

solvs
Jan 17, 2005, 12:41 AM
Bill is an Apple lover, and he hates it. But he isn't the intended target. I doubt a lot of what he says will happen. People can be dumb, but they aren't that dumb. I won't use it myself, but I know a couple of people it would be perfect for. Even after you add a $29 kb. Everything else (monitor, speakers, mouse), they have. He makes some good points, but his delivery isn't great.

On the contrary, Dvorak and Thurott love it. And that says A LOT! Stupid people are going to love this, and that is the market Apple needs to go after. There are so many of them, and their tired of having to work on their PCs, instead of them just working. Bill is usually a good judge, but this time he is dead wrong.

Lancetx
Jan 17, 2005, 09:36 AM
I guess my friends and family must be morons, but in just the last week, I've had 3 separate friends and family members decide to switch to Apple thanks to this "idiot box." :rolleyes:

Of course, they're not power users, they just want something virus/spyware free to surf the net with, use iTunes and iPhoto, plus handle some simple spreadsheets and other basics, etc. For what they actually use a computer for, they really can't justify spending much over $600, so the mini is perfect.

For each of them this will be their first ever Mac. I'm also willing to bet that when they're ready to buy a new computer in 2-3 years, there is a 99% chance it'll be another Mac because they will have completely fallen in love with OS X by then. Bill is entitled to his own opinion, but we're just as entitled to ours that he is absolutely dead wrong about the Mac mini.

dejo
Jan 17, 2005, 08:37 PM
On the contrary, Dvorak and Thurott love it. And that says A LOT! Stupid people are going to love this...

Hmm, was that a subtle shot at Dvorak and Thurott?

3Memos
Jan 17, 2005, 09:33 PM
Bill is an Apple lover, and he hates it.

His whole rant is over the fact Apple hasn't included a keyboard and mouse. Over $29? People shopping at the Apple store could just as well pick up the components they want. I'd recommend a potential switcher to buy 512MB RAM, Apple Keyboard along with their choice of the two models of mini.

goku
Jan 18, 2005, 03:32 AM
That statement assumes that Mac mini buyers use Apple's keyboard, which is far from certain to be the case. Therefore, Timelessblur's complaint is still valid.

Well depends I have 4 USB keyboards MS natural pros and logitech pro all keyboards come with built in two port usb hubs.

One could always get a 5 or 6 port USB hub/switch to increase the number of connections for non hub keyboards.

I am buying a Mac mini. I have powermac G4, and when I was in the store buying it, I noticed that my kids liked to use the emac(Apple did a smart thing with there store setup for kids). My son has an old 1GHZ PIII and a bought my daughter an Emac. Now i can switch out the PC tower for the mac mini( USB mouse, logitech keyboards and 17 inch CRT monitor) Just need memory and airport.

wrldwzrd89
Jan 18, 2005, 04:52 AM
Well depends I have 4 USB keyboards MS natural pros and logitech pro all keyboards come with built in two port usb hubs.

One could always get a 5 or 6 port USB hub/switch to increase the number of connections for non hub keyboards.

I am buying a Mac mini. I have powermac G4, and when I was in the store buying it, I noticed that my kids liked to use the emac(Apple did a smart thing with there store setup for kids). My son has an old 1GHZ PIII and a bought my daughter an Emac. Now i can switch out the PC tower for the mac mini( USB mouse, logitech keyboards and 17 inch CRT monitor) Just need memory and airport.
It's completely possible that some keyboards have 4 free USB ports. Like you said, it depends on the keyboard manufacturer (and it's gotta be USB - PS/2 just won't do).

3Memos
Jan 18, 2005, 04:57 AM
It's completely possible that some keyboards have 4 free USB ports. Like you said, it depends on the keyboard manufacturer (and it's gotta be USB - PS/2 just won't do).

I wonder if you could use a USB to PS/2 adaptor?

wrldwzrd89
Jan 18, 2005, 05:04 AM
I wonder if you could use a USB to PS/2 adaptor?
This was already discussed (I'm not sure if it was in this thread or not). USB-to-PS/2 adapters (and their cousins, PS/2-to-USB adapters) are unreliable. Your best bet is PS/2-to-PS/2 or USB-to-USB.

3Memos
Jan 18, 2005, 05:06 AM
I have a USB mouse that I use to connect to my old PS2 PC. It seems to work out alright. I was wondering about doing it in the opposite direction > going from a PS2 mouse to USB computer. I think you lose the powered bus... and the ability to daisychain?

solvs
Jan 18, 2005, 06:22 AM
Hmm, was that a subtle shot at Dvorak and Thurott?
No... it wasn't subtle. ;)

His whole rant is over the fact Apple hasn't included a keyboard and mouse. Over $29? People shopping at the Apple store could just as well pick up the components they want. I'd recommend a potential switcher to buy 512MB RAM, Apple Keyboard along with their choice of the two models of mini.
I would have to agree, it seems the best bet. A little over $600 plus tax and/or shipping if you already have a monitor, speakers, and USB mouse. Which, those who are upgrading from a PC, probably do.

aswitcher
Jan 18, 2005, 01:47 PM
Bill's just written an open letter to Apple...

Whilst I agree there are some good ideas, his highly insulting tone and heavy bias make me think his site is going to be deleted from my bookmarks pretty soon. He seems to be trying to act strong and make points (and show off to us), rather than really sway them to his agenda. I have little time for writers whose ego takes over their intellect... oh well.

solvs
Jan 18, 2005, 03:32 PM
I have little time for writers whose ego takes over their intellect...
Yeah, it's too bad. I used to like him. Maybe he'll wise up in a few months and eat crow. John Gruber (sp?) of Daring FireBall has, and he makes a good argument. But then again, he always does.

Hey, at least As The Apple Turns got a good joke about it in. :D