PDA

View Full Version : Macintosh Justification


MacBytes
Jan 21, 2005, 04:35 PM
Category: Reviews
Link: Macintosh Justification (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20050121173558)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

balconycollapse
Jan 21, 2005, 04:52 PM
what boggles my mind is how all my relatives who basically all use their computers for simple things like to buy things at amazon, sell at ebay, send campy flash greeting cards, and print word docs have them crash constantly or fry the machine!!!

They are doing some of the most low impact computing that one can do but still as a result of garabe windows software manage to have perpetual problems. Furthermore most were on dialup connections (certainly helping with some spyware/virus issues) utnil recently.

The problem with windows is that very humble computer usage sends it into shambles. I think it is more an issue of people who just can't admit their wrong or made a bad purchase, or unwilling to look at alternatives in many areas of their lives.

My most recent theory is that it has something to do with getting a certain joy out of trading computer horror stories or macho ideals of fixing the computer (hacker fantasy from watching too many movies). It seems as though they actually enjoy the hours of tinkering with disk fixing/virus software as if it were something like a video game because most certainly they don't have anything of value on their computer to worry about being destroyed. They don't really need a computer so viruses and the like provide a reason to use it. Make sense?

brap
Jan 21, 2005, 05:03 PM
Pointing out to him that the Linux administrator could accurately predict his next service shutdown several weeks in advance while the Wintel people can barely limp through a day without a reboot was like throwing water on a duck -- it generated vague resentment but no behavioral change.
Bwahahahaha! (Where's that animated laughing 'gif, hm?)

Earendil
Jan 21, 2005, 05:10 PM
What boggles my mind, and makes me laugh because of the irony, is the random (I hope) add that appears in the article-

"Why pay more for Linux than Microsoft® Windows®?
Through a variety of tests and comparisons, major third-party research and analysis firms found Windows to be less expensive than Linux in the long run. Read all the studies and see for yourself. Click here to get the facts."


:rolleyes:

~Earendil

Applespider
Jan 21, 2005, 05:25 PM
My most recent theory is that it has something to do with getting a certain joy out of trading computer horror stories or macho ideals of fixing the computer (hacker fantasy from watching too many movies).

Sadly, I think it's worse than subconscious masochistic tendencies. I think they honestly don't realise that a computing experience does't have to be that way. I've spoken to people at work (who are reasonably techy) who don't believe that I don't have to run anti-virus/spyware programs. The concept that there is a system out there that does everything I need it to do and doesn't crash appears to be beyond comprehension.

appletalk
Jan 21, 2005, 05:42 PM
the funny thing about the "linux is more expensive than windows" add is that if you click on "get the facts" it links you to who? Microsoft :rolleyes:

I am sure there is no biased info to be found... uh huh... :p

nagromme
Jan 21, 2005, 08:44 PM
I think that author is letting out a long-running personal issue with that guy, that finally just boiled over until he couldn't take it anymore and.... wrote a column :D

Anyway, here's my latest theory about why some people can see AND believe all the reasons to choose Mac, and STILL keep fighting to keep their Windows systems afloat, never being willing to improve their lot:

1. They are afraid of anything new or different or unknown. A common condition!

2. They are afraid of computers--even ones they know well--precisely BECAUSE Windows is such trouble.

3. Combine 1 and 2 and you have a DEATHLY PHOBIA about new and unknown computers!

But when they finally make the leap, they realize both fears were needless. What a relief!

EodLabs
Jan 21, 2005, 08:49 PM
What boggles my mind, and makes me laugh because of the irony, is the random (I hope) add that appears in the article-

"Why pay more for Linux than Microsoft® Windows®?
Through a variety of tests and comparisons, major third-party research and analysis firms found Windows to be less expensive than Linux in the long run. Read all the studies and see for yourself. Click here to get the facts."


:rolleyes:

~Earendil

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but finding a windows admin is alot easier and cheaper then a linux system admin. Does this make your system any faster, more stable or better, thats a question for the system at hand. Working in a microsoft shop, we have some people that can click like demons through active directory, but at command line they are as smart as paris hilton and a dv camera, but guess what you pay them a quarter what an experienced linux admin wants. So take this into account

1 smart well paid windows operator and 10 dumb ones getting **** for salaries

VS

5 Well paid *nix ones. The numbers will run, trust me, i see it everyday.

Quality doesn't always come with quantity, pay sure does. :eek:

rjwill246
Jan 21, 2005, 10:17 PM
This article and the thread that has developed make more sense than much of the rubbish that is posted and commented re: UNIX et al vs Windows. The inertia is enormous due to all the things mentioned: fear of change, imbedded rewards for staying with Windows, as long as it causes such enormous grief, and perception that other platforms might be worse, since those are in a minority.
One of my medical colleagues is constantly upgrading his Wintel computers (the notion of incremental upgrades by changing internal devices seems only to apply to 'nerds' or some IT folks) and has them 'hand-made' by his local Adelaide PeeCee cheapo store, a scenario he considers to be a bargain (yearly PC purchases???) but he just cannot switch to the Mac platform, despite his being down by software or hardware glitches much of the year (he gets up again by frequent re-installs or visits to the PeeCee store), because the Mac doesn't have enough software, specifically, he can't use WordPerfect!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And he is meant to have a brain!!!
Once you meet people like this (and the minions of ilk kind), you realize that hope and logic have by-passed a significant portion of Wintel computer users.
The lemming ad was sooooooo right. :mad:

EodLabs
Jan 21, 2005, 10:42 PM
Upgrading isn't always an option either. Alot of people speak grief (I'm in no way, pro ms) of upgrades, but upgrading a win box and a nix box is basically the same, if your installing the latest and greatest then your an idiot. Security patches are one item, but they on an Enterprise level are done seperatly. I know many places that still use win2k adv. server simply because moving to 2003 doens't make sense. New licenses, new training and new problems. Why not stick with time tested solutions. Same with workstations, alot running w2k pro, why you ask... Because XP although isn't new, has issues of being new. Now once LongHorn comes out, some will move to XP as they figure it has had it's beating and should be stable. Then again, I know lots of places that go with the trend in technology, but in my experience, stability dwarfs performance when it comes to non-tech business IT departments (ie anything not tech related, but still needing an IT department and custom apps)

ZipZilla
Jan 22, 2005, 01:24 AM
I think what causes people to not consider a Mac are a few things...some already touched on, some not.

1.) The perception that Mac users are all snobs, and that they think their computers are better than everyone else's.

2.) The fact that everybody uses Windows, and therefore it is the standard. It's what everybody else uses, so why use anything different?

3.) The compatibility myth....everybody wants to be compatible, and Macs aren't. Besides, Macs cost $10,000!

4.) Ignorance...most people who hate Macs have probably never used one (at least one running Panther.)

It's just people with a closed mind. But when you tell someone that Macs have zero:

-Spyware

-Adware

-Trojans

-Keyloggers

-Viruses

They think you're lying!

Nermal
Jan 22, 2005, 01:44 AM
1.) The perception that Mac users are all snobs, and that they think their computers are better than everyone else's.

Ugh, yeah. I've seen a few posts on here where people have said 'I just emailed company XYZ and sent them this:' - often the messages some Mac users send to companies make me cringe! It's hardly good for the Mac platform when people send out elitist emails :(

sord
Jan 22, 2005, 03:59 AM
I think they honestly don't realise that a computing experience does't have to be that way.
Yea I had to show one of my mom's friend's how to get her email (her popup blocker was blocking her emails from showing up) and I explained to her that a brand new 2.8GHz system shouldn't run like computers did 5 years ago (as hers does due to spyware/adware/viruses). I explained that I use a Mac and don't have to worry about any of that junk and get all of my performance.

She responded saying well you know everything, you can maintain a computer like that.

I told her a child could maintain a Mac, and of course she replied thinking Macs have nothing saying things like
"Well does the Mac have the Internet?"
"You can't burn a CD on a Mac"
"You can't play music on a Mac"
"You can't play games on a Mac"
"You can't use Word on a Mac"
Throughout the conversation she said each of those (not those words, I don't remember how she phrased them).

Why do the computer illiterate have to be so stupid?!

redAPPLE
Jan 22, 2005, 06:50 AM
i think the best way is to SHOW the pc users that Macs are better.

and not TELL them.

Yvan256
Jan 22, 2005, 08:42 AM
i think the best way is to SHOW the pc users that Macs are better.

and not TELL them.

Indeed. Where I used to work, we had a few Macs. I was impressed a bit, but not much. Macs didn't seem that much better.

Then Apple made iTunes for Windows. I was mad at the fact that it moved my files around (though I did tell him to manage it all, so I knew something would happen). How was I supposed to play my files now that iTunes moved them around? How was I expected to find them? And then it hit me like a brick. I'm not supposed to be the administrator of my music files, the damn computer is supposed to work for me. And that's exactly what iTunes did. I was now aware of "the Apple way": the computer is there for me, not the other way around.

Now, I'm just waiting for the Mac mini to ship with Tiger...

So don't try to blindly convince people that Apple is better. Just make them try iTunes for a month or so. It's a free download and it's available for Windows. And it could open their eyes to the fact that their computer should work for them.

When iTunes works and their other apps get in the way, they'll start thinking. And next thing you know they'll be the ones asking you about Macs. And when that happens, they'll be in listen mode, not denial mode.

Mainyehc
Jan 22, 2005, 09:32 AM
Indeed. Where I used to work, we had a few Macs. I was impressed a bit, but not much. Macs didn't seem that much better.

Then Apple made iTunes for Windows. I was mad at the fact that it moved my files around (though I did tell him to manage it all, so I knew something would happen). How was I supposed to play my files now that iTunes moved them around? How was I expected to find them? And then it hit me like a brick. I'm not supposed to be the administrator of my music files, the damn computer is supposed to work for me. And that's exactly what iTunes did. I was now aware of "the Apple way": the computer is there for me, not the other way around.

Now, I'm just waiting for the Mac mini to ship with Tiger...

So don't try to blindly convince people that Apple is better. Just make them try iTunes for a month or so. It's a free download and it's available for Windows. And it could open their eyes to the fact that their computer should work for them.

When iTunes works and their other apps get in the way, they'll start thinking. And next thing you know they'll be the ones asking you about Macs. And when that happens, they'll be in listen mode, not denial mode.

You are SO DAMN RIGHT!!
This makes me wonder wether the ultimate trojan horse is the iPod, which creates the well-known "iPod halo effect"... We seem to be forgetting the equally important "iTunes halo effect"! iTunes is free, and almost every iPod user has it installed, which means there are a lot more people using iTunes than iPod owners ;)

Some people may just bypass the "iPod step", and go directly for the Mac mini after trying iTunes. It's so obvious... After using iTunes for a while, someone (or an Apple store employee) tells them that iLife apps are just like iTunes, and the OS is just as easy to use as iLife, and... You know how the story ends :cool:

Oh, by the way... It's funny you mention how you had a gripe with iTunes organizing the stuff for you. A friend of mine switched to iTunes from WMP, and she just couldn't grasp the concept of making a playlist. "BUT I WANT TO ORGANIZE MY FILES AND "PLAY" FOLDERS!!" she kept saying. But she was delighted with its interface, and that alone was enough for her to give it a try, and eventually use it as the primary app for music management... I can understand Windows users' pleasure in organizing stuff in folders and subfolders, I've been a Windows user myself for years. But I think there is a limit where we just should stop doing that and, like you said, let the computer work for us. I absolutely love the way iTunes organizes stuff, it's the simplest, clearest system.

OTOH, I still can't understand why iPhoto doesn't organize stuff into identifiable folders like iTunes... It should at least divide pictures by roll, and number them accordingly :rolleyes:. One thing that would be awesome would be having iTunes and iPhoto integrate seamlessly with Tiger, by also displaying their regular/smart playlists and albuns in the filesystem, in the form of regular folders full of aliases and smart folders. That would be very cool, since some applications don't fully support drag'n'drop. Take aMSN, for example: it is a port of a Linux app, so everytime I have to send a file to someone, I have to search through the filesystem. When sending iTunes tracks, I can find them easily; when sending photos, I have to create a copy of them on the desktop so I can find them... :o By the way, while I am at it, has anyone here tried iLife '05 already? If so, do you know how does iPhoto organize stuff now? ;)

jbembe
Jan 22, 2005, 09:52 AM
Showing is much better than telling. I spent months trying to convince a couple friends about the Mac. They didn't get it. They had a video camera for months that they could never do anything with because the software on the PC was so difficult to manage. Finally, they wandered in a Mac store. The clerk took their camera, plugged it into a mac and immediately started playing with their footage making a movie.

They bought a powerbook within a week.

dsharits
Jan 22, 2005, 10:38 AM
Yea I had to show one of my mom's friend's how to get her email (her popup blocker was blocking her emails from showing up) and I explained to her that a brand new 2.8GHz system shouldn't run like computers did 5 years ago (as hers does due to spyware/adware/viruses). I explained that I use a Mac and don't have to worry about any of that junk and get all of my performance.

She responded saying well you know everything, you can maintain a computer like that.

I told her a child could maintain a Mac, and of course she replied thinking Macs have nothing saying things like
"Well does the Mac have the Internet?"
"You can't burn a CD on a Mac"
"You can't play music on a Mac"
"You can't play games on a Mac"
"You can't use Word on a Mac"
Throughout the conversation she said each of those (not those words, I don't remember how she phrased them).

Why do the computer illiterate have to be so stupid?!

I absolutely hate it when people are like that! It is actually companies like Microsoft and Dell that are responsibe for that type of mentality, however, because they put out this idea that Windows is the only OS for normal people, and only code-writing geeks can use anything else. Then we have people that hate Macs because they've used one before, and they just "couldn't stand the instability of it, and it didn't have any programs, yatta, yatta, yatta." The problem with these people is that they used a Mac when they were running, oh say, System 6 or 7, so of course it's going to be unstable and have no programs. What they don't tell you about is their experience with Windows 3.1 at that time. ;) The absolute worst, by far, are the people that say that all Mac users are just stuck up VW driving weirdos, who just want to buy the style that Apple brings and rebel against the mainstream, just to be different. My dad used to say this to me all the time after I got my first iBook at a garage sale and I switched to OS X. He always told me about this supposed attitude of Mac users, and how I shouldn't want to be associated with that group, etc. Now, however, he has used OS X and seen what you can do with it that is not possible with Windows, and I think he is actually regretting buying a Presario a few years ago. It also helps, because he got a new job about a year ago, and EVERYONE in the shop is a die-hard Mac fan. I haven't heard his little speech on the Mac mentality for quite some time. :p
I guess my whole point is just that I hate PC's, and it bugs me to no end when people try to tell me something that is coming from these stupid PC companies, something that is coming from someone else's bias, and something they obviously know absolutely nothing about. As far as justification for using a Mac, I think that what I have been able to do with my computers up to this point is enough justification on its own. The reasoning I want to see is why people use PC's. Except for a few games, there is no justification, bottom line.

Daniel

nagromme
Jan 22, 2005, 02:53 PM
OTOH, I still can't understand why iPhoto doesn't organize stuff into identifiable folders like iTunes... It should at least divide pictures by roll, and number them accordingly
It does :) Even in the first iPhoto. Choose to show Film Rolls from the menu. Within the rolls, photos are sorted by date.


That would be very cool, since some applications don't fully support drag'n'drop. Take aMSN, for example: it is a port of a Linux app, so everytime I have to send a file to someone, I have to search through the filesystem.
Tip: You always have drag and drop access via this workaround: open the file dialog.... and then drag ANY file or folder INTO it. Cool! :) I do that to drag an open folder window from Finder into an app Save dialog for instance: hold down on the proxy icon in the folder window title bar, then drag it to the dialog. No room to get to both? Use Exposé mid-drag. I find myself working this way a lot, integrating Finder with other apps in ways other than plain drag-and-drop.


has anyone here tried iLife '05 already? If so, do you know how does iPhoto organize stuff now? ;)

I'm using it now :) I'm too hooked on GarageBand to bother with anything else yet, but I have heard that iPhoto FINALLY allows subfolders! They can contain albums, smart albums, books, slideshows etc.

Earendil
Jan 22, 2005, 03:13 PM
It does :) *snip*
Tip: You always have drag and drop access via this workaround: open the file dialog.... and then drag ANY file or folder INTO it. Cool! :) I do that to drag an open folder window from Finder into an app Save dialog for instance: hold down on the proxy icon in the folder window title bar, then drag it to the dialog. No room to get to both? Use Exposé mid-drag. I find myself working this way a lot, integrating Finder with other apps in ways other than plain drag-and-drop.
*snip*

I consider myself a power user. I didn't know you could Expose mid drag. I am indebted to you, my liege. *bows*
And I LOVE Apple :D

billyboy
Jan 22, 2005, 03:17 PM
I think that the only people it is relatively safe to talk to Mac versus a PC, is a kid up to the age of 15 or 16. They have open minds, and like cool, and graphic oriented things. I am a teacher, and th visual is very very important.

Older folks tend to see good graphics as "eye candy", with no practical value. Show a kid the genie effect and the expanding dock and movies playing in the dock and so on, and they like it. Then say the Macs are a doddle to maintain, absoultely virus free at the moment, and for multi media the software is integtrated out the box, now you have an interested party, starting to enjoy the possibility of using something new, pretty, and different but still a computer, so not that different.

Contrast that to my mate aged 48, a Mac fan from afar, but a total Windows user and a very accomplished one at that. He has my Powerbook now with a vanilla install of Panther, he wants to be able to use it like I can, but he is literally scared of it. I thought he was making progress when he said it was quite intuitive. But he blew that with - because the Finder is like Explorer.

He went straight to the music folders in Finder and asked how he went about organising folders with his favourite selections of tracks. I hope he follows the lead and plays with iTunes a lot, because it really is a great ice breaker into how OS X thinks. But I dont know. Not even Office was a resounding success, his first impression being it was very different to what he uses day in day out on a PC. will hear if the Mac version really is better than Windows. I dont know personally because I only installed that complex bloaty software for his benefit, and my first impression looking at it over his shoulder is that it looks like it is something that needs to be learnt. Ugh. Why cant you just get on and use it!

. I know he will make the effort, and also his wife is telling him he must get over this idea that trying something different isnt worth the effort. If he gets to use some iLife apps properly, he will be impressed I am sure, but will he get that far?

Mav451
Jan 22, 2005, 03:29 PM
I'd extend that age to college students, 18-21. The first time I had seen a Mac (since I was 4 in elementary school), was my sophmore year (the year of the G5). The way to convince them to use a Mac is to simply offer them the choice.

Do NOT insult them. Do not tell them that "MS brainwashed you". That is condescending and hardly what I call "open-minded". In some ways, this is a reflection of religions. Who would listen to someone if they told you "you're going to hell, you're not saved" vs. "do you want learn about the Word" w/o the condescending tone?

There is a huge difference. The "you're going to hell, you're not saved!" group is one of the least effective groups in bringing switchers (that's Apple or religion). They say you attract more bees with honey than vinegar...remember that.

takao
Jan 22, 2005, 03:39 PM
I'd extend that age to college students, 18-21. The first time I had seen a Mac (since I was 4 in elementary school), was my sophmore year (the year of the G5). The way to convince them to use a Mac is to simply offer them the choice.

hey i'm 21 and finally buying the first one ;)

i gotta agree you on this ...the 15-16 age group (at least the boys) are too concerned about games to be interested in mac os x ...

crazedbytheheat
Jan 22, 2005, 04:52 PM
... when sending photos, I have to create a copy of them on the desktop so I can find them...

Or you could just send them directly from iPhoto. It will even resize them into small pictures if you want so that your friends and family with dial-up can download them in minutes instead of hours. (Not a new feature).

billyboy
Jan 23, 2005, 04:08 AM
hey i'm 21 and finally buying the first one ;)

i gotta agree you on this ...the 15-16 age group (at least the boys) are too concerned about games to be interested in mac os x ...

So why is there a queue of lads to get on 6 eMacs so they can use iMovie? The kids seem to have X boxes for games anyway.

24C
Jan 23, 2005, 05:45 AM
i think the best way is to SHOW the pc users that Macs are better...and not TELL them.
Agreed, in selling Macs in the past, I don't sell them. I ask questions like "What do you want a computer for'"...then "have you looked at these?"

Yeah, the're Mac's/Apples, but they don't run Microsoft etc

"Why do you need to?" Pick up on computer uses given in conversation and show, but I am always HONEST about the product...

Normally folks are always surprised, but I never pushed, just reasoned in a friendly way, even told them other places where to get a Windows PC...A week or two, with the most skeptical, they come back, and marketshare is increased:D

That was the nicest part about selling Macs, the breaking down of peoples' perceptions and they were always grateful for the honesty.