Mac Hater Arguments

[DanTekGeek]

Im working on a project....
Im compiling a list of the most common blind faced arguments that mac haters make, and specific facts and statistics that we can rebut with.
Im not looking for a discussioin, but just a list of the most common arguments against mac that you guys run into.
thanks,
dan

[tech4all]

You mean ignorant comments like, "Macs only have 1 button mice", "Macs can't play games", "Nothing works with Macs", "Macs cost $3000 while PCs cost $500" ?

[Capt Underpants]

"Most software isn't compatible with macs"

Which is true...

[EJBasile]

I have heard....

Macs have such bad software (Specificly- Appleworks is the only good program apple makes- hahah i think the opposite)
Macs can't play games
Macs are too expensive
Macs are not compadible with windows
Macs are so much slower- PCs fastest are 3.8 while macs are 2.5

These are hard ones that people have told me- hard to justify
Macs Suck
Mac is Wack
If you buy a Mac your on Crack
If you buy a Mac you'll marry a girl with no rack (yea- strange people out there)
Macs are ugly

~EJBasile

P.S. I hope that works. Good luck on your project. When its done have a moderator make a sticky of it lol!

[dejo]

Macs are for artsy people and not getting real work done.

[Blackheart]

No MS Office for Mac
or
Windows Word files aren't compatible with Mac

[Counterfit]

I know there's an anti-Mac website out there that hasn't been updated in a while. I mean, they're bitching about what kind of SCSI it has, and other things that haven't applied to just about any computer made in the last 10 years.

[DanTekGeek]

yeah, those are mostly ones that we can answer easily, without backing it up.

for instance, today i heard
"pcs are better for number crunching"

i pointed out that ppc architectures have more calculations per clock cycle than pcs, but I would like to have been able to give an exact statistic.

[johnbro23]

How about..

Macs just try to be cool with their curved edges.
Only 1.25GHz? thats so slow and outdated!
They're so annoying. I hate the layout. (I hate this one. The only answer is "its just different than Windows. Once you use it for a while its much better")

Also, some things I've noticed while in Chem class (the only class with Macs)

The person new to macs looks at the mouse and says "where's the buttons?"
Our teacher has the dock hidden, so ppl are like... I can't even find IE, this computer is stupid
Our teacher has 2 pro apps running at startup, plus she hasn't upgraded her ram, and everyone thinks theyre slow.

A valid point made about the Mac mini:

Only 2 usb ports? You take up both of them with the keyboard and mouse.

Hope this helps. It'll at least get you started.
:)

[Chip NoVaMac]

I have a co-worker who claims that Windows XP is a more stable OS.

[Daveway]

I've heard:
"They still make those?"
"Aren't they too white?"
"Those are for rich boring people"- not true, hip people
"Too expensive."
"Do you really want that? It doesn't work with anything!"

I switched a few months ago and i'm the happiest computer user around. Everytime I go to recover a PC for someone I tell them about macs.

[sjpetry]

Everytime I go to recover a PC for someone I tell them about macs.

Me too

"Macs are toys." Remember toys are fun, and people call Ferrari but honda arn't ( See a link between the two. ). And Ferrari faster. :D

[quagmire]

Macs can't run windows without a slow emulator.
Macs are for fags( boy, people just love gay bashing)
Macs are for druggies
Macs crash( ahh still lives in the OS 9 days)
Macs are for hippies
Macs are a virus itself
Macs are beauty but, no performance

[Apple Hobo]

• MAC'S don't work with the internet.
Fortunately, I've never heard this in person. Unfortunately, this one has been known to come from the mouths of "professional" computer techs.

• MAC'S have no software.

• MAC'S are slow. d00d, I can get a 3GHz PeeCee for $150, but MAC'S are only like 2.0GHz at $5,000. OMG Tahts stoooopid!!!11.

• MAC'S are only good for working with graphics.

• MAC'S crash every 2 minutes.

• MAC'S don't even have USB or FireWire.
I'm sure I've seen this one somewhere.


*Mac has been intentionally written as MAC'S with the wrong use of an apostrophe. I strive for accuracy when imitating PeeCee kiddies.
:D

[Aldaris]

Often a dinner debate if not war at my house...

My brother in-law is convinced Apple steals... (Linux/Unix).
Apple is no more stable than a PC, Linux, Unix.
Apple is an expensive piece of ****(Word of choice).
Apple is for people who have nothing better to spend an extra $1500.
You spend money for a glowing light that doesn't do anything.
Macs don't have the capabilities my $250 Pentium 4 has.
Macs aren't good for networking.
Macs have very poor security.
Macs can't do anything better than my PC.
My Microsoft Movie Maker can do better than your Final Cut Pro/iMovie.
Macs are for Losers

This is the gist of our conversations/debates -

[DanTekGeek]

the one thing that really gets me is that i bet if these people actually tried os x they would love it. unfortunatly, they, like many, have had bad experiances with the older mac OS's. I have to admit, I despise the early mac OS's. Many of these people make arguments about mac, but are reffering to experiances with early macs, that dont apply to os x. Next time i have an argument, Im going to pull out my laptop and make them try osx., :)

[killuminati]

I admit it, I used to be a mac-basher. Its because the computers in my school all ran OS 9 and were REALLY slow. If only they had os x :rolleyes: . I never started liking Macs until my friend showed me his new powerbook one day. I couldnt believe how different OS 9 and OS X were. I am now a proud windows-basher. :p

[sorryiwasdreami]

This is a good thread and I hope a lot of people jump on it. Then, as one poster said earlier, maybe someone can make a sticky out of it.

I've heard many of the previously posted comments but here are some unique ones:

"Everybody with a mac has to run Virtual PC on it so they can actually do stuff."
"iCrap" -in reference to iLife '05
"Fisher Price computers"
"Macs are gay."
"Piece of junk." -heard at an apple store
"Macs are obselete."
"Who uses macs?"

This all makes me pretty sick.

[DanTekGeek]

I think that switchers appreciate os x a bit more than life-long mac users. (again, this is opinion). We have had to deal with windows for years. You can only appreciate the good when you know the bad.

[dxm113]

"macs don't have solitare"

[applemacdude]

"macs don't have solitare"


they have chess

[MP2]

Macs are slow. (fried of mine suffering from the MHz myth)
Macs crash. (refering to the 8.6, 9.1, and 9.2 iMacs in the computer lab abused by students at least 3+ hours a day... I happen to agree :) (though not OS X if taken care of))
I can build a PC for $500 that will tear your $1500 Mac apart.
Macs don't have any games. (wrong)
Macs have virii/spyware/adware/malware. (haha **** who ever said this to me)
'This isn't an XP vs. OS X debate because 90% of the work we do on computers are in programs like Photoshop witch are the same across different platforms' :rolleyes:
You can't upgrade Macs. (I agree to a certain extent)
Macs have no games. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
'OMFG THSI MAC HAS A VIRUS!111ONE!!!!1' :mad:

The one I get most often is that Macs are for gays/fags/lesbians/homosexuals/bisexuals/hippies. :rolleyes: :mad:

[Flowbee]

"Macs are for people who can't learn how to use a REAL computer."

[virividox]

macs are for girls

[Flowbee]

For a more complete list, just head over to Cnet and read through the negative user comments on the Mac mini. Truly mind-boggling.

[Mav451]

The funny part is that C|Net is essentially a site for novice PC users, like that Dell user in high school who has no idea how to even open his computer. I'm serious, everytime you go to C|Net, you almost always end up getting stupider.

So, its not surprising you find those negative comments on there. The irony is that those C|Net users are probably the ones that really could use a Mac.

[Rod Rod]

A valid point made about the Mac mini:

Only 2 usb ports? You take up both of them with the keyboard and mouse.

That's not quite valid. The keyboard and mouse only take up one USB port, with a net loss of zero USB ports, as long as you're using a keyboard that has a two-port USB hub in it. Plug the mouse into the keyboard, plug the keyboard into the Mac mini, and you still have two free USB ports. :)

To add to the thread's topic:
"You can't build your own Mac."
(the argument against it may be a bit too complicated for the average Windows tolerator).

[PickledSquirrel]

'If I used mac at home, I wouldn't be able to take documents from home and print them at school'

'To darn expensive'

'No floppy drive' (I hear this VERY often, even in the days of flash-storage)


-Squirrel

[EJBasile]

Random:

I was at dells website looking at there Plasma Tvs. If you take a "tour of one" theres a pic of the TV and then underneath it a 12" PB. I could tell from the color, slot loading drive visible, and the mac os 10 blue background. I suggest checking it out, its hillarious.

[clayj]

Random:

I was at dells website looking at there Plasma Tvs. If you take a "tour of one" theres a pic of the TV and then underneath it a 12" PB. I could tell from the color, slot loading drive visible, and the mac os 10 blue background. I suggest checking it out, its hillarious.Do you have a link?

EDIT: Never mind, I found it. Don't forget, though, that Dell are trying to position themselves not only as a vendor of PCs, but also of consumer electronics. They probably don't care whether people who buy their plasma TVs are PC users or Mac users.

[Blackheart]

Random:

I was at dells website looking at there Plasma Tvs. If you take a "tour of one" theres a pic of the TV and then underneath it a 12" PB. I could tell from the color, slot loading drive visible, and the mac os 10 blue background. I suggest checking it out, its hillarious.

For those too lazy to go find the picture, here (http://students.washington.edu/stuartbr/macrumors/dellpb.png) it is. Let me know if this wasn't what you were thinking of EJBasile.

[MOFS]

Random:

I was at dells website looking at there Plasma Tvs. If you take a "tour of one" theres a pic of the TV and then underneath it a 12" PB. I could tell from the color, slot loading drive visible, and the mac os 10 blue background. I suggest checking it out, its hillarious.

i guess you means the ones pictured
here (http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/category.aspx/notebooks?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs) . They look like PBs (except with cheap silver plastic I think!) complete with the photoshopped Mac standard background...

But anyway...
"No one uses Macs" - eh? When in lemmingland... ;)
"They're not compatible with anything" - actually they're compatible with more things than Windows.
"You can't get Media Player/ Office/ (insert random Microsoft program here)" - yeah ya can - just that we don't need Media Player.
"There's no DOS (/other random lettering start-up screen)" - thats cause Apple know how to do a GUI properly - not everyone needs to see that.

[sorryiwasdreami]

Here are some good ones from Cnet about the mac mini.

"More of Steve's RDF spin,& a small box for what is essentially the guts of a 3 year old eMac, without a mouse, monitor, or keyboard. USELESS. For $500, I can get a complete Dell with twice the power."

""Buy into Obsolescence"

Its new on the market! Its gimmicky and it'll look good as a book end.

Cons: Small hardisk, no monitor, usb hub required making it as expensive if not more than a comparable PC. While appple make pretty computers, they must eventually come to realise that we are not all hairdressers! And even then its prettyness will be lost with all the external adaptors and accessories required to hang off the back."

"Looks pretty. Will probably fool a lot of people into trying the Mac experience and then be such a dog they regret it for life."

"I work in Photoshop on my WinPC all the time and need to be able to open images in the 2GB to 4GB size. My motherboard has 8GB installed RAM. I seriously doubt that you could do any real work with this system."

HAHAHAHA! I could keep going but wont. I suggest you guys do as one poster above said and head on over to Cnet to check these out!

[crazzyeddie]

That's not quite valid. The keyboard and mouse only take up one USB port, with a net loss of zero USB ports, as long as you're using a keyboard that has a two-port USB hub in it. Plug the mouse into the keyboard, plug the keyboard into the Mac mini, and you still have two free USB ports. :)

Thats also not quite valid. 98% of keyboards do not have built-in USB hubs (like the Apple keyboard), so with the BYO KB/Mouse idea that Steve has, you end up with 0 ports, not even enough to plug a hub into (I hate plugging my mouse and keyboard into a hub).

[Daveway]

Funniest thing happened a few hours ago.
I Windows using friend came to my house to get a DVD and when I was ejecting the DVD from my iMac he started complimenting on how cool it looked. Then out of nowhere he says, "Dude your computer doesn't even have a clock!" I was like, "WTF?!?! Look up dummy!" And just by pure coincidence a voice came out and said, "It is 1:00pm." My friend was floored that the computer actually had a clock AND told you what time it is every 15mins.

I thought it was quite funny.

[dsharits]

It's hilarious how far these arguments are from the real truth. What do you expect? These statements are coming from PC users, who have already been duped into buying that piece of crap on their desk.

Daniel

[DanTekGeek]

Ill admit, that I used to be one of the mac haters. I wouldent inslut macs, but I still thought that they sucked. I had groundless arguments. The truth is, all of the Mac OS's up till X do have a lot of problems. I personally cant stand them, and would take windows ME (shudder) over them any day. What we really need is to tell these people to stop living in the past, and try the future.

[hikeNM]

Man this computer is stupid!!! There's not even a little blue E to click on!!!

[Bern]

My all time favourite

"If everyone owned a Mac then IT people would be out of a job" and this guy thought this was a vaild argument against Macs.

:rolleyes:

[D*I*S_Frontman]

"Apple? Aren't they going out of business? Why would you buy a computer from a small-time company like that? You're rolling the dice with Jobs--one screw up and they'll be belly-up."

"Too expensive."

"For the rich and trendy fashionistas."

"Strictly for creative types--musicians, film/video, graphic designers. Meat-&-potatoes people use PCs."

"Apple still makes computers? I thought they just make iPods?!"

"But I've learned all these important skills--constantly loading new virus definitions to my AV program, defragging/optimizing my hard drive, scanning for spyware, updating XP service patches, hacking via command prompts when hardware installs go bad, and learning new interfaces for every new program. I am my own tech support guy now--I don't want to start over!"

[solvs]

"Macs are just toys... besides, they can't even play my favorite game." :eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

[ACED]

From a lecturer I got: "Mac is a cult for mindless arty-farty wannbe types, with too much money to splash round, and way too much 'holier than thou' attitude".

When I started about OSX, he said, "It's just a ********* computer program, get over it! ... that a small dwindling % of people use ... so why are you an unpaid saleman for a closed platform, multination company with a lazy $5billion in the bank?"

He then ranted about the "stupid" one button mouse ... (I do use a 2button/wheel mouse, though)

Not a pleasant experience. I now avoid people when I sense any Mac-hatred in them.

[dsharits]

I now avoid people when I sense any Mac-hatred in them.

Really? When I sense that trait, I'm actually drawn toward them. Of course, after the conversation, they wish I hadn't been. :D

Daniel

[Horrortaxi]

"Everybody with a mac has to run Virtual PC on it so they can actually do stuff."

If "stuff" means "getting frustrated and angry at my computer" then the person who said that was right on.

I haven't updated the content for a while, but I've got a thing about this on my website (http://horrortaxi.net/macmyths.html).

[SubGothius]

"Macs are just toys... besides, they can't even play my favorite game." :eek: :confused: :rolleyes:
In a related vein, how about any business that refuses to buy or even try any solution from Apple, alleging that it's a "proprietary single-vendor closed system" (which it hasn't been for years, to what little extent it ever was), while at the same time they're buying into all-Microsoft-all-the-time (or worse, Sun!), justifying that strategy on the grounds of "standardization". :eek: :confused: :rolleyes: :cool:

(-adapted from rueyeet's .sig here from ages ago. BTW, nice .sig yrself; and here I thought I'd been clever and original -- and/or mebbe you did too? Guess 'tis long past time I really got around to retiring it in favor of something fresher eneywho... :o )

[killuminati]

I'm in grade 9 and recently we had to do a powerpoint presentation in our classes. I did it in keynote and brought my pb in to show it. I head two kids in my class talking about my pb and one said "Wow thats such a nice computer but its a mac so it sucks." he went on and some of the reasons 'macs suck' are because they dont work with any "common programs" and crash all the time. I just laughed.

I enjoy trying to get people to switch to mac. But some people are just so ignorant its not worth your time. I was happy to let them have to worry about all their viruses and spyware, and adware, and crashes, and blue screens of death - the list goes on.

[Horrortaxi]

You got off sort of lucky being able to use your own software and computer. I took a class (grad school mind you) where we didn't have a choice--Use PowerPoint or fail. I started off in Keynote--and made a kick ass presentation in 10 or 15 minutes. Then I spent the next 2 hours making sure it would look right in PowerPoint in Windows. Of course all the fonts that made it look so good wouldn't work in Windows--or they weren't stock and the teacher wouldn't have them when she viewed it.

I told the teacher I could give her a quicktime file that would do the same thing and look better than anything anybody else turned in. She told me just to do it in PowerPoint and then to be spiteful she gave me an A- in the class. I'd also shown her up on an assignment to create a website. She made a template with grossly outdated code and I fixed it for her. She didn't like that either.

My point is that the anti Mac bias is everywhere. You can't avoid it. This particular class was for teachers--teaching them how to use technology in the classroom. Macs are still really popular among teachers and it's basically what we all have. So to "teach" us how to use tech in our classrooms we had to use programs we don't normally use on a platform we don't normally use.

Windows/Office/Etc are so dominant that most people don't even realize there are competing products--even people who should know better. Even the people making the laws that will dictate how you can and can't use your computer don't necessarily know anything about technology. It's really scary.

[nbs2]

"I've had my computer for a semester and it hasn't crashed. And it's not an Apple" - the silly first year as she admires her dell

"Are you sure you can use word? They can't be compatible with windows" and "Windows is used more, they must be better" - my dad, who means well and may yet turn

as a counterpoint "My next computer will be a Mac" - my fiance as she reboots her PC for the umpteenth time; also, "My next computer will be a Mac" as she prepares to take it into Best Buy for repair/replacement for the 4th time in 6 months

[dr bognus]

if you drop a mac and a pc, it is easier to put the pc back together...

whatever, if you drop a pc you will be on the phone to company support for hours, especially DELL who does not have a record, and the photoshop needing 4gb of ram, i am doing stuff with it with 384mb ram

Dr bognus :)

[dsharits]

I posted a question on the Windows XP forums asking "Why don't you use a Mac?". I want to see some of these arguments first-hand. Sound like fun? You can follow it here: http://www.softwaretipsandtricks.com/forum/showthread.php?p=66565#post66565

Enjoy!

Daniel

[Horrortaxi]

if you drop a mac and a pc, it is easier to put the pc back together...

Have you actually heard somebody use that argument? If you have to give consideration to which will do better in a fall you have bigger problems than "should I get a Mac or a PC?"

and the photoshop needing 4gb of ram, i am doing stuff with it with 384mb ram

I LOVE the Photoshop blowhards who say you can't do anything without the fastest computer and gigabytes upon gigabytes of RAM. I really have to wonder what they're doing becuase the professional design and print world is running on 400-800 mhz G4s with under 1GB of RAM. It's not uncommon to find pre-G3 PowerMacs still in use. These are the computers used to design the magazine ads you see every month, the stupid messages on T shirts, the posters for the big dumb movie that's coming out next month--everything.

The blowhards are probably doing hard core stuff like red-eye reduction on the pictures from their 26 megapixel cameras that they don't know how to use properly.

The goal shouldn't be to win an argument with these people though. Just learn enough about them to recognize them and avoid them when you see them. Arguing why your Mac is better than their PC (and it is better) is pointless. Just be happy using your Mac. If you wanted to get upset over stupid things you'd just use Windows in the first place.

[Horrortaxi]

I posted a question on the Windows XP forums asking "Why don't you use a Mac?". I want to see some of these arguments first-hand. Sound like fun? You can follow it here: http://www.softwaretipsandtricks.com/forum/showthread.php?p=66565#post66565

Enjoy!

Daniel
I'm curious what they'll say, but a troll is a troll (even if I agree with you) so they might not say anything (which is the smart way to deal with a troll).

[dr bognus]

yeah I heard the if you drop a pc stuff from someone who was a website developer in the summer, he obviously didnt have much of a clue, anyway i can use photoshop on an early 01 snow ibook with 500mhz processor and 384mb ram although i dont do much but it is still pretty quick

Dr bognus

[norinradd]

Have you actually heard somebody use that argument? If you have to give consideration to which will do better in a fall you have bigger problems than "should I get a Mac or a PC?"



I LOVE the Photoshop blowhards who say you can't do anything without the fastest computer and gigabytes upon gigabytes of RAM. I really have to wonder what they're doing becuase the professional design and print world is running on 400-800 mhz G4s with under 1GB of RAM. It's not uncommon to find pre-G3 PowerMacs still in use. These are the computers used to design the magazine ads you see every month, the stupid messages on T shirts, the posters for the big dumb movie that's coming out next month--everything.



Thats so true!

I freelance for a major mag based in London and in the studio the machines are all sawtooths with about 256-384 ram in them, running PS 7 and Quark 3.32 :eek:

Still its nice to come home and use my dual G5 ;)

[Mav451]

Have you actually heard somebody use that argument? If you have to give consideration to which will do better in a fall you have bigger problems than "should I get a Mac or a PC?"



I LOVE the Photoshop blowhards who say you can't do anything without the fastest computer and gigabytes upon gigabytes of RAM. I really have to wonder what they're doing becuase the professional design and print world is running on 400-800 mhz G4s with under 1GB of RAM. It's not uncommon to find pre-G3 PowerMacs still in use. These are the computers used to design the magazine ads you see every month, the stupid messages on T shirts, the posters for the big dumb movie that's coming out next month--everything.

The blowhards are probably doing hard core stuff like red-eye reduction on the pictures from their 26 megapixel cameras that they don't know how to use properly.

The goal shouldn't be to win an argument with these people though. Just learn enough about them to recognize them and avoid them when you see them. Arguing why your Mac is better than their PC (and it is better) is pointless. Just be happy using your Mac. If you wanted to get upset over stupid things you'd just use Windows in the first place.

Its true that PShop, if you aren't doing filter work, is hardly a strenuous app. My friend got away with using a 800Mhz Celeron w/ 256MB RAM (on WinME at that) up until her sophmore year in college. She didn't need a G5/Athlon64 to do Pshop. Pshop is more about your skill/talent then computing power. I could have a G5 with 2GB ram, and she would still outdo me b/c I don't know HOW to use Pshop (yet).

I keep telling myself I will learn...but it hasn't happened yet lol.

[ewinemiller]

the one thing that really gets me is that i bet if these people actually tried os x they would love it. unfortunatly, they, like many, have had bad experiances with the older mac OS's. I have to admit, I despise the early mac OS's. Many of these people make arguments about mac, but are reffering to experiances with early macs, that dont apply to os x. Next time i have an argument, Im going to pull out my laptop and make them try osx., :)

But it doesn't always work that way. I bought the wife an ibook G4 about a year ago so she would get a little more exposure to my business. The best description would be that she tolerates it on a good day and on a bad day she's giving me an earful about that "damn Mac". For the things she does, a Windows machine works better, even though she has the same software available on both (CorelDraw 11). Making her use OSX has taken an indifferent attitude and made it bad.

Also keep in mind that some of the things I hear around here about Windows are also based on Windows 95 era experience. XP on auto update with a virus scanner on auto update works just fine, it's just not as bad as your average Mac user makes it out to be.

You may think that all Windows users are tormented souls just looking for you to show them the light, but in reality most are just fine and all you're doing is annoying them by evangelizing the Mac. I like and use Macs, there are some tasks I always do on the Mac even though I've got a PC that is easily 4x faster. However I hate the evangelizing so much that at professional gatherings I tend to avoid the Mac folks just so I don't have to hear it, because it invariably comes up. That kind of thing is why the broader tech community has such a "they are just a bunch of cultist" attitude towards Mac users.

[Mav451]

But it doesn't always work that way. I bought the wife an ibook G4 about a year ago so she would get a little more exposure to my business. The best description would be that she tolerates it on a good day and on a bad day she's giving me an earful about that "damn Mac". For the things she does, a Windows machine works better, even though she has the same software available on both (CorelDraw 11). Making her use OSX has taken an indifferent attitude and made it bad.

Also keep in mind that some of the things I hear around here about Windows are also based on Windows 95 era experience. XP on auto update with a virus scanner on auto update works just fine, it's just not as bad as your average Mac user makes it out to be.

You may think that all Windows users are tormented souls just looking for you to show them the light, but in reality most are just fine and all you're doing is annoying them by evangelizing the Mac. I like and use Macs, there are some tasks I always do on the Mac even though I've got a PC that is easily 4x faster. However I hate the evangelizing so much that at professional gatherings I tend to avoid the Mac folks just so I don't have to hear it, because it invariably comes up. That kind of thing is why the broader tech community has such a "they are just a bunch of cultist" attitude towards Mac users.

Those are exactly the words I would use on this. Very succinctly put.

[Horrortaxi]

Its true that PShop, if you aren't doing filter work, is hardly a strenuous app.

But on the other hand, if you're not using filters then why are you using Photoshop? $650 is a lot of money to spend just to crop and rotate images.

It's a demanding app, but not so demanding that the computer that can run it well has yet to be invented.

[johnbro23]

"Macs are for people who can't learn how to use a REAL computer."

Yea I've heard that one a ton... but is that really a bad thing? I mean all the person is doing is bashing a computer for the fact that its easy to use. :confused:

[Mav451]

But on the other hand, if you're not using filters then why are you using Photoshop? $650 is a lot of money to spend just to crop and rotate images.

It's a demanding app, but not so demanding that the computer that can run it well has yet to be invented.

I meant the more demanding filters, some filters are done quicker than others...

[Blue Velvet]

But on the other hand, if you're not using filters then why are you using Photoshop?

You may be working with A3 450ppi CMYK images with a bunch of masks, channels and layers, that's why...

Even in RGB at those sort of dimensions, many filters are not even usable without at least 512mb of RAM if not more. Particularly the distortion/liquify types.

And although much work is possible on lower-spec machines, a certain philosophical attitude towards the progess-bar rapidly sets in. Or a fondness for coffee breaks...

Don't anyone try and tell me I was just as productive or creative on my old beige G3 as opposed to the dual G5...

[Horrortaxi]

And although much work is possible on lower-spec machines, a certain philosophical attitude towards the progess-bar rapidly sets in. Or a fondness for coffee breaks...
If you're paid hourly and have a certain mindset then a 9600 and a ball mouse might be welcomed on the job. If you're not waiting for the 9600 to apply a filter then you're cleaining your mouse. The end result is that you don't have to do very much work--and you can bitch about how much better you'd be on a G5. It's really a win-win situation.

[Blue Velvet]

If you're paid hourly and have a certain mindset then a 9600 and a ball mouse might be welcomed on the job. If you're not waiting for the 9600 to apply a filter then you're cleaining your mouse. The end result is that you don't have to do very much work--and you can bitch about how much better you'd be on a G5. It's really a win-win situation.

Ha-ha! :D
Paid hourly: those were the days... :)

When you're just a salary–(wo)man, you just want to churn through the stuff, especially if you're distilling that horror-job at the same time.

Once you get up to a certain level of machine it becomes subjective. My dual 1.4G4 at home felt terrifically fast until the G5s arrived at work...

Anyway, enough. I don't want to hijack this thread 'cos it's far more entertaining talking about those pesky PC-loving trolls, bless 'em!

[dejo]

Photoshop is available for Windows, too. And it has the same hunger for RAM as its Mac counterpart. So the point of contention around this would be...?

[Counterfit]

I'm in grade 9 and recently we had to do a powerpoint presentation in our classes. I did it in keynote and brought my pb in to show it. I head two kids in my class talking about my pb and one said "Wow thats such a nice computer but its a mac so it sucks." he went on and some of the reasons 'macs suck' are because they dont work with any "common programs" and crash all the time. I just laughed. Something like that happened to me last year. I was in "Survey of Mechanical Engineering" (or some such rather pointless class), and near the end of the semester, we had to do a presentation on some subject (it was pretty pointless, so I've already forgotten). Anyways, I asked the guy who made it (in PowerPoint) to send it to me when he was done so I could snazz it up in Keynote. Class-time comes the next day (8AM, ugh), and someone else in the class has his laptop with him. Of course, it's a blue plastic HP. He brings it up, and tries to hook it up to the projector, 5 minutes on, and it still doesn't work. So he burns a CD, and uses the laptop the professor had there (some sort of Thinkpad, probably a few years old). My group is the last to go. I bring my PowerBook up, and he says "A Mac?! You didn't want a real computer?" (jokingly of course). I just rolled my eyes, plugged into the projector, and used my T68i as a remote. :D

[Timelessblur]

you have to remeber that a lot of people only impression on a mac are from the one from tehre elementry school and good greif those things where better as a boat anchor than a computer.

Our windows 95 computer at the time where more stable more reible could do more stuff and faster than the ones at school.

but at the same token I hear and read a lot of arguemtns from mac users who only impression of windows is comparing a mac to a windows 95 computer and really poor aguments and mass blown out of propotoin agruements.

Favorit one I heard from a grown man "On OSX I can zoom on on a single part of a screen (I think that pretty cool. Useless but cool) and when playing a movie I can zoom in with out degreeing the movie file you cannot do that on a windows computer it will look bad" Mind you you cannt do that on a XP unless you have a little add in program but it more of gimic than anything else.
I sitting there thinking umm yeah right you have the same problems as you do when you blow something up full screen you are just making the pixial bigger and if the file it self does not have the deteal in it to handle being look at close it well degree in quility. I choose to keep my trap shut because it was clear he had no clue what he was talking about and just another clueless mac head who thinks he knows about computers while knowing next ot nougthign at all.

I hate hearing Mac Zealots state to a windows user who computer is having a problem "Get a mac and you will never have those problems" But they offer no really help and just poke fun at the them. I go over there to help and I stated to them if you not going to offer any real help or you dont know how to help Shut up and get out. if they say it again it goes to forcing them out. Of course I one of mac user who said that have a problem with there mac (hardware failure and a software glight) they come to the computer guy for help (me) I respond to them "I though you had a mac and they dont have problems" I just kept at that for about 20 mins making a point. They got pretty steamed about it. Did go look at it really quickly looked noticed the problem told them how to fix the hardware and just uninstall and reinstall the software and lefts. They never again used said Get a mac after that reliezing that problems happen to everyone and he knew everytime he did it I would point out his problem and ruin all his creitblity.

[killuminati]

I read this one in a forum. Im not sure but I think he was trying to diss mac users :p

"People who own macs are usually cleverer, or have beards and camp in the woods at weekends."

[Horrortaxi]

I read this one in a forum. Im not sure but I think he was trying to diss mac users :p

"People who own macs are usually cleverer, or have beards and camp in the woods at weekends."

Yeah, calling somebody "clever" is fighting words back in the old country. It's interesting what some people think will hurt your feelings--it reveals a lot about them.

I'd much rather be a smartass than a dumbass.

[killuminati]

I'd much rather be a smartass than a dumbass.

I second that

[nbs2]

I was just thinking about why I didn't swtich from Windows for so long. I think a lot of it has to do with application in schools. Yeah I used it in school, but either it was rahter expensive or a IIe. I remember when the iMac came out, it was touted as a machine to surf the internet - something that I figured was only part of what I needed and robust enough. My primary argument against the Mac while I was doing my undergrad was what happens in a crash. I always figured a Mac would "fix itself" when there was an error, while Windows would let you know the error and you could go about debugging whatever you needed to. My main reason for switching? I realized I was not as capable at software repairs as I thought myself to be, my roommate's Mac didn't fix itself when it crashed - it just didn't crash, and I was sickof having so many opportunities to debug my computer.

For some windows users (I don't speak for all), I think the fact that the machine feels well built makes the machine feel expensive, and the price sort of validates that. They assume that the Mac line is what rich people can afford. It's sort of like luxury cars for the rich - I can't imagine seeing <famous movie actor> on the side of the road trying to figure out why his/her 1984 Accord just died. Really, the best way for people to learn about this option is to spend time with a user and see how much easier life is and how nice the operating system is. A bit of fun cajoling is ok, but it sould be in jest, not mean spirited. It's one thing for me to tell my fiance "Hmm....I can't remember my PB doing that" when her Toshiba crashes or her work computer develops a pop-up problem that ad-aware can't fix, it would be another for me to insult her....just a thought

I don't mean to steer control of the thread, but I would like to hear other personal mac hater reasoning from when people switched a little more than the usual comments that users hear. It's kind of like religion (which I'm not getting into) and politics (same) - hearing the usual argument from outsiders who don't want to change is usually not as interesting as hearing "before thoughts" from those who changed.

[carpet]

Me too

"Macs are toys." Remember toys are fun, and people call Ferrari but honda arn't ( See a link between the two. ). And Ferrari faster. :DWhat? :rolleyes:

[ClarkeB]

I posted a question on the Windows XP forums asking "Why don't you use a Mac?". I want to see some of these arguments first-hand. Sound like fun? You can follow it here: http://www.softwaretipsandtricks.com/forum/showthread.php?p=66565#post66565

Enjoy!

Daniel

I just looked at the main page of that forum and out of 13 titles on the main page, 6 had the word problem, error, or crash in them. Windooooooze.

Not really an argument but I had a computer class for a semester and like on the first day the teacher asked if anyone used Macs (wicked Windoze dependent) and I raised my hand and said something like "Well I use this (pointing to computer) children's OS now, but my new Mac is on the way! The future is here!" and he was like, sarcastically "Good luck with that" and I was like "Good like with these". Anyway, every single class I had after that one or more (sometimes more than half of the 30 computers) computers had crashed and he would be fixing them.

We also had to write a paper about what computer we would want w/ what stuff etc. So...I wrote mine about a dual 2.5 PowerMac G5 w/ dual 30" Cinema Displays...8GB RAM...dual 250 gig hds..etc. And like I had a whole paragraph about how OS X is the (or more appropriately...the) most stable, most user-friendly, most powerful OS on the market.

I got a 90 on it :rolleyes:

[chanoc]

All this Mac bashing are the results of an uneducated society, with a 95% illiteracy in science, reason and logic. Logic should be a required class - not an elective- in high school and college. :rolleyes:

Sad to hear these logical fallacies in institutes of higher education. :(

My favorite: "You better learn to use a PC because that is what you will use on the job."

Rebuttal: My first office job used Macs running OS-X. :p

[Timelessblur]

you know you can say the same thing about some of the Mac users who are windows bashes. To make it worse for them a lot of the basher are apple Zealots who think they understand computer windows and computer really well but in reality they dont understand jack.

I am sorry but I dont think logic should be a required class. Mainly because the people who teach it bother me and they go about proving things that are impossible with logic. By the I doing then the number is as high as 95% to much of hte country is collage educated and I know for a fact any of them that are doctors or engineers have to have a strong grasph of sciences. (engineers also have a strong grapsh of math)

Logic is a worthless class that I will never have to take. The people who every really take that class are people who dont understand math and sciences. They take it and it counts for there math creited. The menumal science class is a joke.

[Horrortaxi]

Just for the record, I was simultaneously a Windows user and basher. My hatred for the platform is based on years of experience. They earned my contempt.

Logic--I enrolled in that class thinking that logic=common sense. I was just a little bit wrong. It's not a useless class, but the problem is that it's really hard to find somebody who can teach it well--just like math. Take something real, make it abstract, use a lot of jargon, and act superior when talking about it. The fewer students who understand you the better. Luckily debate fills the same requirement in many universities.

[afields]

slow,expensive......that pretty much covers it.

[chanoc]

Logic is a worthless class that I will never have to take. The people who every really take that class are people who dont understand math and sciences. They take it and it counts for there math creited. The menumal science class is a joke.

A science class? A math credit? At my school it counts as a philosophy class, not math or science. Logic in math and computer science is different from the meaning of logic as a study of reason - as in logical fallacies, objectism, etc..

[angelneo]

Logic is a worthless class that I will never have to take. The people who every really take that class are people who dont understand math and sciences. They take it and it counts for there math creited. The menumal science class is a joke.
I would have to disagree with you.

Logic in terms of math and science is very important as it teaches you how to visualise your thoughts in a systematic order that you can put down in a machine or a proof. For example, when you are programming a accounting system where there are many rules and logic to adhere to, you need to be able to put all these in terms of symbols and codes.

Logic in philosophy gives you a foundation to learn how to put forth your argument and be able to reason with more clarity.

[Timelessblur]

when a goverment and pholiphy major can take logic as a math class it gets bump down to a worthless class in my book. It counts for a math crieted in collage. Plus the teachers of those class general tick me off and I hate pholiphy class. They go about making arguemtns that are impossible and false and yet they prove them right inagurment.

Someone who has a heavy end math in there degree will quickly see that it is a worthless class to them because we go to a higher lv of logic in our work and we are tought how to write up the stuff.

I not going ot move from my veiw on it because I think ti is a worthless and the room is full of idoits. I know some engineers who taken it. They hated it because they understood all of it and they already could think that way. Then when something went against sciencefic pinples and they tread to be proven wrong. They also hated because the class was full of some of the biggest idoits in the world who had no clue how to think logicly if there life depended on it

[notjustjay]

Couple thoughts...

As a Christian I find it remarkably uncanny how similar the culture and attitudes are between religious people who have "seen the light" and Mac users. Just a thought.

I have one friend who seems to see his Apple hardware through rose-coloured glasses. He'd point out the LCD panel on his PowerBook, for example, and state how Apple's display panels are categorically so much brighter and crisper than anything you'd get on a Windows laptop.

Now, last time I checked, Apple used the same Samsung-made panels as everybody else, no?

(In fact my PowerBook has a dead pixel, the first one I've ever had in four laptops...)

I also identify with the folks who do Keynote presentations (and use my t68i as a remote as well). Fun!

[angelneo]

when a goverment and pholiphy major can take logic as a math class it gets bump down to a worthless class in my book. It counts for a math crieted in collage. Plus the teachers of those class general tick me off and I hate pholiphy class. They go about making arguemtns that are impossible and false and yet they prove them right inagurment.

Someone who has a heavy end math in there degree will quickly see that it is a worthless class to them because we go to a higher lv of logic in our work and we are tought how to write up the stuff.

I not going ot move from my veiw on it because I think ti is a worthless and the room is full of idoits. I know some engineers who taken it. They hated it because they understood all of it and they already could think that way. Then when something went against sciencefic pinples and they tread to be proven wrong. They also hated because the class was full of some of the biggest idoits in the world who had no clue how to think logicly if there life depended on it
As I say, it is a foundation or groundwork. Just because you feel that you know it all and you do not need it, doesn't make others, who feel they could benefit from it, idiots. Your bashing of others whom you do not know much about contradicts your previous statement that you dislike mac zealots bashing windows which they know nothing about.

I believe there are a few macrumors members with philosophy majors, maybe they can help you with your hatred for philosophy.

[Timelessblur]

They can take it all it does is lay the ground work for logic for people who dont do any real math classes or science class for that matter.

I think there is no point for any one who degree is heavily based on Math and/or Science to even take that class. They general get more tick off about those to class than any thing else because the teacher general try to say things that are false true and things tha are true False. They are not allowed to use a lot of the princples there world and eduction is based around. The people in those classes geneal are idoits. there are a few bright apples that just suck at math and science but then their are to many student in their that just waste the eniter class period argue Logic points that are false based on sciencetific prinples which I for one would never give up.

I hate the way they teach philosophy. There is philosophy and then there is learnign about it. My person philosophy is based around math and sciendes. Those are my foundtion for most everything I believe in and hold true but when I have to agure with out those 2 tools I not going to win simplely because I know noughting of the world with out them.

[nbs2]

1) The topic of the the thread is "Mac hater arguments"
2) Logic class does not relate to "Mac hater arguments"
3) Recent posts discuss logic class
4) Going too far off topic is bad
5) Bad things should be fixed
6) When things are fixed, they are usually brought back to their previous state

Q.E.D. Maybe we should end discussing logic classes and get back to the point of the topic :D

That said, ignore the following:
I was a non-math major who took a logic class. It actually is a good class for all people to learn to express their thoughts in a manner that flows smoothly. But, I hated the class. But, I'm sure some people enjoyed it and some benefiteed. Therefore, while I did not enjoy logic class, there was a benefit that some recieved, making the class like any other - reviled by some, loved by others.

[angelneo]

Well, its tough to preach to the non-believers. (hmm...) If they refuses to see our point, telling them otherwise would only make them more defensive and harder to change.

Most of the time I get from other people is that "Macs just look pretty and cost too much and I could get an equivalent of a PC for half the price", some (not really haters) just say "but I don't know how to use a Mac"

[h0e0h]

When we started our freshmen semester, we both came from the same highschool and both from the same church, and that's why we roomed together. He bought a new Windows machine for gaming, and i bought my powerbook. Well, by the end of the semester one of his switcher quotes based on using my powerbook and his prostar was "I hate windows, but i like a challenge..." By that he meant, i really like your powerbook dude, but times is hard and i can't afford one right now

[5300cs]

"there's no software available" - there are now over 10,000 apps available for OS X

"no one uses a Mac." - according to Apple, there are over 10,000,000 users of OS X (who knows how many pre-X users there are.)

"they're too expensive." - Well, if you want to buy a peecee for $400, be my guest:
1.) but remember I charge by the hour to fix things
2.) "another virus?" see #1
3.) "spyware? your system's running slow?" see #1
4.) you get what you pay for...
5.) if it works, good. Then I won't hear from them again.
(Why do windows people always talk to me about their windows problems? 'my machine runs slow', 'it boots slow', 'where can I get this?', 'what's a good anti-virus program?')

"Macs are for arsty-fartsy fags." - I don't have an answer for that. I refuse to get into discussions with people who make moronic comments like that. You'll get no where with them anyway.

I remember talking to a kid in college and he said "windows pcs?? dude you can't do ANYTHING on those!!" :D

[5300cs]

"Apple is loosing money everyday." - Really? You must be their accountant then. Can you give me some 'tips' on stock investment? ;)

[solvs]

"Apple is loosing money everyday." - Really? You must be their accountant then. Can you give me some 'tips' on stock investment? ;)
I remember recommending Apple to a friend who was looking for some stocks to purchase a little while ago. I told him they had these things called iPods that were becoming really popular and that they were about to release this thing called the iTunes Music Store. He laughed, didn't invest because Apple sucks.

The stock was around 16 then. It's considerably higher now, and still rising. I'm glad my uncle listened to me. He's seen a pretty big return.

[Mav451]

The first time I really got interested in iPods were when they repeatedly emphasized how celebrities, specifically singers were using them on the set. This was on an MTV show >> yes, I used to watch this in high school :eek:

Anyway, for high school students, iPods were way out of my price range, and of course back then there was no iTunes for Windows. I can tell you, the minute iTunes was released to PCs, iPod purchasing rose exponentially (bigger market). Can't say that's a bad thing either, cuz when "hell froze over" was the minute I started using iTunes.

The same time I had already "switched" to Firefox, and was already posting on Macrumors too...

[Platform]

I have heard....

Macs have such bad software (Specificly- Appleworks is the only good program apple makes- hahah i think the opposite)
Macs can't play games
Macs are too expensive
Macs are not compadible with windows
Macs are so much slower- PCs fastest are 3.8 while macs are 2.5

These are hard ones that people have told me- hard to justify
Macs Suck
Mac is Wack
If you buy a Mac your on Crack
If you buy a Mac you'll marry a girl with no rack (yea- strange people out there)
Macs are ugly

~EJBasile

P.S. I hope that works. Good luck on your project. When its done have a moderator make a sticky of it lol!

Tell the peopl that say that the Ghz=speed. Ghz speed of the cpu has got very very little to do with actual performance. The PowerPC cpu's get more done in each cycle than the x86 once and are actually at lot faster than the P4+ the 2.5 version from mac has a 1.25Ghz FSB wich is a lot higher and they come in Dual configuration not single such as the P4 :D

[redeye be]

A valid point made about the Mac mini:

Only 2 usb ports? You take up both of them with the keyboard and mouse.
not an excuse ;)

You can also connect the mouse to one of the 2 ports on the keyboard, or go bluetooth and use none. :p

Cheers

[dotdotdot]

"Macs suck because everyone uses Windows"
"You can't use AIM to IM your friends on a Mac"

AND The two best ones:

1) "You can't use an iPod on a Mac" - my friend said this like two days ago. I'm like "are you an idiot? Who do you think MAKES the iPod!?!?" and hes like "But on my friends [Mac] computer when I plugged in my iPod it didnt work" Edit: In case it wasn't understood, this is because when he plugged it into his Windows, he set it up for Windows, so in a Mac, it didn't work...

2) "I already have a Windows and whenever it breaks my neighbor can fix it but he can't fix Macs" - Well... you get the picture...

-----

5300cs said: "'no one uses a Mac.' - according to Apple, there are over 10,000,000 users of OS X (who knows how many pre-X users there are.)"

I just wanted to add that I need to apply for highschools next year - I applied for two that i really want to go to. One is using Windows 2000 Server Edition as their servers and all the computers are using Windows 2000, and the second one uses Apple OS9 on iMacs. Well, the ones using Apple OS9 had all the information I needed on four different computers and within seconds printed all the information because it was networked to all four computers. The Windows 2000 Server didn't "want" to give me the information, so I had it mailed to me at home.

The entire school uses OS9 - like maybe 60-100 computers - while thats not a lot, thats only ONE High School, which is very good because it is very SMALL.

[dsharits]

"I already have a Windows and whenever it breaks my neighbor can fix it but he can't fix Macs" - Well... you get the picture...


I've heard that one before, and I told the guy, "Well, do you think it's right to have a computer that needs to be fixed?" He said, "Aww come on, everyone has the occasional virus that they need fixed, and we all have crashes once in a while."
Microsoft has ruined the general public.

Daniel

[jsalzer]

Believe it or not, I still hear:

"I used those Apple IIe's back in gradeschool, and Windows 98 (2000, xp) is sooooooo much better!"

I hear the generic, "it's a toy", or "we don't use those here." (I bring my own Mac to work - it's where the real work gets done.)

As for Logic, I'm a math teacher who used to teach one-day "Logic" seminars to adult learners returning for their BA degrees. It's all in who's teaching it and what their goals are. Personally, my students enjoyed it (as much as you can enjoy a Saturday seminar), and their papers and speeches improved as a result of the emphasis I put on logical arguments, avoiding falicies (sp?), etc.

It can be done well. I'm not sure how often it is, but..... ;)

I'm not sure why anyone would think a math major wouldn't need such a course. It's the basis for proofs. And symbolic logic is just plain fun! :)

Of course, there are always those people who will take it too far. Heck, anyone who attempts to pretend to understand Cantor's theorems ends up blindly spewing out faulty arguments. And some philosophy folks are just as bad. But, it doesn't negate the importance of the topic.

[Balin64]

Couple thoughts...

As a Christian I find it remarkably uncanny how similar the culture and attitudes are between religious people who have "seen the light" and Mac users. Just a thought.

I have one friend who seems to see his Apple hardware through rose-coloured glasses. He'd point out the LCD panel on his PowerBook, for example, and state how Apple's display panels are categorically so much brighter and crisper than anything you'd get on a Windows laptop.

Now, last time I checked, Apple used the same Samsung-made panels as everybody else, no?

(In fact my PowerBook has a dead pixel, the first one I've ever had in four laptops...)

I also identify with the folks who do Keynote presentations (and use my t68i as a remote as well). Fun!

Man... You and your kind never rest! Most of my aquintances and friends who are Christians are extremely unforgiving and judgemental: too bad, really. No: george w may use a Mac (shudder to think) but most evangelical Christians I know are married to Windows becasue they often adopt social norms: buy expensive-gas-guzzing cars, get in debt, use a computer just as ar work: Windows. I respect your mac loyalty, but Christians are Windows users... they are sheep after all!

Your other points are right on; you make us proud!

[Rod Rod]

I respect your mac loyalty, but Christians are Windows users... they are sheep after all!

I have to reject that statement because the implication is if Christians and Windows users are sheep, that would mean Bill Gates is Jesus. :eek:

[Mav451]

Lol Christians are Windows Users? Hahaha.

One of the biggest advocates of the Mac was someone I met at Church. Considering Christians, believers, are as diverse as the human race, it would illogical to say that all Christians are Windows users.

[tech4all]

I've seen some comments about Macs that may be somewhat reasonable. But these are just -> :rolleyes: (especially the first one):

"if u used a MAC for ur entire life then u are screwed because u dont know how to use them..."

That doesn't make sense.


"macs suck, i mean, seriously, 1 button mouse? thats for pre schoolers!"

I didn't know pre schoolers worked at PIXAR :rolleyes: (I'm not totally sure if they still do, but didn't they switch to the G5?)

Sometimes you gotta feel sorry for people who make these comments. I mean they obviously have no idea what they are talking about, and they talk utter non-sense.

[Horrortaxi]

Christians are Windows users... they are sheep after all!

One man's insightful comment is another man's flamebait.

[xsedrinam]

Man... You and your kind never rest! Most of my aquintances and friends who are Christians are extremely unforgiving and judgemental: too bad, really. No: george w may use a Mac (shudder to think) but most evangelical Christians I know are married to Windows becasue they often adopt social norms: buy expensive-gas-guzzing cars, get in debt, use a computer just as ar work: Windows. I respect your mac loyalty, but Christians are Windows users... they are sheep after all!


Way off base with world view and prejudice, shaken, not stirred. I happen to know quite a few of those generalized "sheep", and a good percentage drive Camrys, maintain a life style that's solvent, have a work ethic and computer use which go beyond the job description 24/7, and are Mac enthusiasts. Baaa, humbug ;)
X

[generationxwing]

I feel the need to defend *some* (but not all) of the ignorant Windows users here and the anti-Mac arguments. I've been a Windows user since 1993, but I have decided to make the switch and am saving up for an iBook. I used to be duped by some of these arguments, but I got myself educated and now am willing to try a Mac. Anyway...

Price: Let's face it, Macs DO cost more than PCs. Alot of people just can't afford the quality that comes with a Mac.

Crashing: I haven't used a Mac since 1995 (my junior high computer lab had the old old old school ones) but it crashed all the time. Stupid bomb. And if every version of the OS has been schytee until OSX, there's going to be a perception, no matter how innacurate, that Macs are all schytee. Look at Star Trek: Enterprise. It's a decent show now, but it sucked for 2 years and as a consequence has lost an audience and has been cancelled. After 10 years of crappy products, it can be hard to convince people again.

Windoze iz better mofo!!!111@!: 90% of computer users don't know too much. They go with what's there, and it's almost ALL windows. Go into a computer store, it's Windows. Go to a computer website, and it's like "We reccomed Windows XP!" Most people are just gonna say "Well, Windows has gotta be good and Macs must suck, if they're still around." Apple needs a greater presence.

The Ghz argument: For a couple years I wondered wtf was with slower processor speeds. I was, I admit, duped by that. And I'm not great with computers, but I know a bit more than the average computer user. I think it is a serious marketing problem that Apple has to overcome. It sucks, and Macs aren't slower, but to the average Joe, that's what they see. Not everyone can just go and try out a Mac to see that Macs are indeed faster and better.

Mac Mini USB: I have to admit, I really don't like the # of USB ports. They should've dropped at least 4 in there. People like my Dad only have old school keyboards and mice that aren't even USB. If the point of the Mini is to convert people, there should have been more USB ports, or even old school keyboard and mouse ports. And yes, I do realize this would have affected price, etc. But how many people will buy it, then have to get a new keyboard and mouse? Then if they don't get a kb w/ USB ports in it, they need to get a USB hub. Phew. It gets to be a pain. I'll just stick with Windows. All hail Dark Overload Gates! I think you see my point.

Apples not compatible with Windows: Millions of people have Windows, and have paid for software for Windows. They can't afford to pay the money for a new Mac (even though it will be better than their PC) and then have to drop cash for new software. Obviously there's no way for Apple to fix this, unless they had some program where people can send in their Windows software, and get equivalent Mac software, or a discount or something. That would actually be a good idea. Hmm. Listening, Steve?

That's all I got now. Remember, I am preparing to make the Switch. I want a Mac, you all probable have them. This whole problem, and it is a problem for Apple, is that most people don't know too much. Apple needs ways to deal with this, without compromising the quality that has made Macs superior to Windows. Since all Mac users are "arty farty" and creative, they should be able to do it! And the Mini is a good start, I think. Once I get my iBook (by summer, before I graduate uni) I'm gonna get my Dad converted and get him to buy a Mac Mini.

Cheers!

Sean

[dsharits]

Price: Let's face it, Macs DO cost more than PCs.

Oh really? How so? If you compare a dual processor G5 to a $399 Gateway, maybe. Macs do not cost more than PC's. PC's, while around the same starting price, will eventually cost more with antivirus subscriptions and the like. When you compare a Mac and a PC and close to the same performance level, the PC will be more expensive.

Daniel

[generationxwing]

Oh really? How so? If you compare a dual processor G5 to a $399 Gateway, maybe. Macs do not cost more than PC's. PC's, while around the same starting price, will eventually cost more with antivirus subscriptions and the like. When you compare a Mac and a PC and close to the same performance level, the PC will be more expensive.

Daniel
Sticker prices are more expensive. I'm looking at this from the point of view of the average computer user, who has no classes in computers, no degree, just wants a computer for email and porn. He or she doesn't care about performance level. They see numbers: bigger Ghz is good, bigger price is bad. I agree that Macs are superior; after 12 years of Windows believe me, I know. But to counter these anti-Mac arguments, and even expand Apple's market share, we need to see it how Joe Sixpack sees it.

[Applespider]

Apples not compatible with Windows: Millions of people have Windows, and have paid for software for Windows.

Excellent post but was wondering about this point.

How many consumers have bought a lot of programs for their PCs these days? If most people just use their PCs for surfing web and checking mail (free software) and writing their CV (any word processor), then although your point certainly holds true for a proportion of users, I'd think there's a considerable percentage who wouldn't have to spend much at all.

When I switched, I lost my copies of Word (came with PC and needed updating anyhow), Paint Shop Pro (was considering Elements anyhow), a few games and my AV/internet security software. Most other programs I ran on it were freeware/low fee shareware apps which I've found free/low fee alternatives for on the Mac.

[Mav451]

Excellent post but was wondering about this point.

How many consumers have bought a lot of programs for their PCs these days? If most people just use their PCs for surfing web and checking mail (free software) and writing their CV (any word processor), then although your point certainly holds true for a proportion of users, I'd think there's a considerable percentage who wouldn't have to spend much at all.

When I switched, I lost my copies of Word (came with PC and needed updating anyhow), Paint Shop Pro (was considering Elements anyhow), a few games and my AV/internet security software. Most other programs I ran on it were freeware/low fee shareware apps which I've found free/low fee alternatives for on the Mac.

If my millions, he was talking about Adobe/MS Office kind of suites, then I'm sure the corporations could easily make a deal to just "switch" to the Mac version. On the otherhand, "switching" on the personal level may not be so easy.

[Applespider]

If my millions, he was talking about Adobe/MS Office kind of suites, then I'm sure the corporations could easily make a deal to just "switch" to the Mac version. On the otherhand, "switching" on the personal level may not be so easy.

Adobe already do. They will switch your Windows software to Mac software - although there are some restrictions regarding versions of the software

[Mav451]

Adobe already do. They will switch your Windows software to Mac software - although there are some restrictions regarding versions of the software

Ah sweet.

[applebum]

This comes from my brother-in-law, who is a history teacher, debate coach, and one of the smartest people I know.

"Microsoft owns Apple." He is pretty sure that he read in an article somewhere that MS bought Apple and is now making their OS. I told him that MS had once had some Apple shares, but no longer held them. He said that wasn't it. He is sure MS is making OSX. I told him to find that article and send it to me. Needless to say, I have yet to see that article.

[dsharits]

"Microsoft owns Apple."

Oh yeah, 'cause that's even possible. Why then do Apple and Microsoft always oppose each other, why isn't Windows better, and why haven't we heard about it? Wow, some people...

Daniel

[saunders45]

Man... You and your kind never rest! Most of my aquintances and friends who are Christians are extremely unforgiving and judgemental: too bad, really. No: george w may use a Mac (shudder to think) but most evangelical Christians I know are married to Windows becasue they often adopt social norms: buy expensive-gas-guzzing cars, get in debt, use a computer just as ar work: Windows. I respect your mac loyalty, but Christians are Windows users... they are sheep after all!

Your other points are right on; you make us proud!

Wow Adolf.. that wasn't unbiased, judgemental, or completely rude. Thats like saying all linux users are Muslim, unix users are Hindu, and OSX users are rich Jews.....

[Blue Velvet]

Wow Adolf.. that wasn't unbiased, judgemental, or completely rude. Thats like saying all linux users are Muslim, unix users are Hindu, and OSX users are rich Jews.....


Stop!


By using Adolf Hitler's name you have invoked Godwin's Law. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)


:D


p.s. It may be poor form to even bring it up. I don't mind breaking this law myself as I frankly, don't give a damn, my dear...

[frescies]

...just wants a computer for email and porn....


Wait.... There's other things you can do with your computer???

.... What's this "email" about?

[applebum]

Stop!


By using Adolf Hitler's name you have invoked Godwin's Law. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)


:D


p.s. It may be poor form to even bring it up. I don't mind breaking this law myself as I frankly, don't give a damn, my dear...

Blue - thanks for posting that, it was a great read. So, if you lose for invoking Godwin's Law, and Saunders loses for invoking Hitler, what do I win???

[Chappers]

My latest one was from our IT guy who said - you can't back up a mac without spending £2500 on software.

[Bob21]

Stop!


By using Adolf Hitler's name you have invoked Godwin's Law. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)


:D


p.s. It may be poor form to even bring it up. I don't mind breaking this law myself as I frankly, don't give a damn, my dear...

Ha ha ha - Good Call :D

[notjustjay]

One man's insightful comment is another man's flamebait.

Yeah, I wasn't going to go there. That sheep quote could be interpreted in two ways, and I smile at the first way, but I'm not sure that's the one he meant.

I'm sorry if that poster was earnest in saying "Most of my aquintances and friends who are Christians are extremely unforgiving and judgemental". I'm sorry some of us are like that (whatever religion). I'm sure that's not a personal attack on me, because I'm not like that at all :D

Anyway, card-carrying Christian though I may be, there is a time and a place for proselytization, and now's not the time... oh wait, yes it is, we're talking about switching to Macs ;)

[notjustjay]

I'll address Sean's points and give some of my thoughts, but because I'm lazy I won't use the quoting feature, I'll just write using the same categories as he did.

Price: Yes, higher perceived sticker price, though in the end if you do a value comparison, the Mac usually ends up being on top. Also don't forget the higher resale value of Macs. Here in Ottawa we have a thriving Usenet community for selling computer goods, so it's very easy to see what machines are worth. Today I saw people selling Pentium II 233 machines, complete minitowers, for $15. Someone posted his original bondi iMac for $75, and it sold practically instantly. He said to me later, "I had no idea it was worth much more than that!" Someone else was selling a 350 MHz iMac for $350, and a 450 MHz PowerMac G4 (AGP Graphics) sold for $450. An equivalent spec'ed PC tower probably resells for $150 or less.

Someone posted an 867 MHz TiBook and sold it for $1400. Crazy.

(Canadian dollars.)

To the person who retorted "if you compare a dual processor G5 to a $399 Gateway, maybe" - well, that's exactly what people are doing. People see $399 Gateway, then they go to Apple and see $2000 computers, or $1500 computers. It's the PowerMac G5 towers that everyone's got their eye on, people tend not to notice the eMac, for example.

Crashing:
Agreed. People need to hear about OS X and how great it is, in particular how much better it is than older Mac OS's.

"Apple needs a greater presence" -- absolutely! Just look at the success of the iPod and iTunes. You'd think if the Macs were advertised as well as that, they'd sell better too. (It's been a LONG time since I saw ads on TV or in magazines for Apple products.)

The Ghz argument:
We're hitting a wall now that PCs are "stuck" not moving far past where they are now, and machines are so ridiculously fast now anyway, nobody cares. It'd be like car manufacturers trying to sell you on the fact that the new model Ford can go 800 mph while the new Toyota can only do 450. When nobody needs to go that fast anyway, nobody really cares anymore.

Apples not compatible with Windows: Millions of people have Windows, and have paid for software for Windows.

I like the trade in idea, I wonder if individual manufacturors couldn't be convinced to do this. Send Microsoft your old copy of Office for Windows, get a huge discount on Office:Mac. Some programs came with both Mac and PC versions on the same CD, so you might actually already have it.

As for the idea of millions of people having paid for Windows software -- yes, of course, but I wonder if there's a bigger hidden number of people who have NOT paid for their software for Windows -- who pirate off friends, work, BitTorrent, etc... if they switch to Macs, where are they going to get their WarEZ from?

[evilernie]

Price.

Price.

And oh yeah,

Price.

Many people just think pc's are a better bang for the buck. I'm not saying it's a valid argument, I'm just saying people look blindly and ignorantly at the price vs. features. On paper it looks like they are getting a lot more for their money with a cheap-ass Gateway compared to a comparible (again, on paper) mac.

Of course we all know that's not true, but it can be tough to convince people of that.

[dsharits]

And of course on paper, people see this: Mac=1.2 GHz, PC=2.5 GHz, 2.5 GHz>1.2 GHz, so PC>Mac, and Mac=crap.

Daniel

[saunders45]

Stop!


By using Adolf Hitler's name you have invoked Godwin's Law. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)


:D


p.s. It may be poor form to even bring it up. I don't mind breaking this law myself as I frankly, don't give a damn, my dear...



i knew i should have said Himmler or Goering...

[mac-er]

i knew i should have said Himmler or Goering...

They were Nazi's too, and Godwin's law includes the whole party.

[Mord]

"MSN sucks on the mac and thats all i use my computer for"

they had a 3.4GHz EE dell with a radeon 9800 pro and akll they used it for is msn and solitare :mad:

[Platform]

"MSN sucks on the mac and thats all i use my computer for"

they had a 3.4GHz EE dell with a radeon 9800 pro and akll they used it for is msn and solitare :mad:

:p

I have a feeling that most people with mac's acually use their comp to the full extent but as you said the wintel people use 1/100000 of their Pee Cee :confused:

[angelneo]

Adobe already do. They will switch your Windows software to Mac software - although there are some restrictions regarding versions of the software I was peasantly surprised when I recently bought Macromedia Studio MX2004 and found out that It came with both the windows and mac installer.

[Les Kern]

Im working on a project....
Im compiling a list of the most common blind faced arguments that mac haters make, and specific facts and statistics that we can rebut with.

Personally I tire of supporting "the cause", stopped quite some time ago. My tact is different now... more like cutting off any comments or attempts to engage with one simple statement. For instance, a few weeks ago I actually let a salesman in. He was from a company that wanted to latch on to some of our dough. He was there for the networking portion of my plans, but had an eye on the rest of my operation. When I told him that we're going to do some capital purchases in 1.5 years (I have one million bucks to spend), he saw an opening. He wanted to sell me PC's of course. Lots of them. I told him "thank you but we are Mac-based in total". He then said he didn't want to get into a philosophical debate with me. That was MY opening. Here's what I said to him almost verbatim: "It's not a philosophical difference, it's about productivity, total cost of ownership and security. It is certainly not about fitting in to some misguided PC mantra. Further, folks who come in here offering to "change us" are not thinking of our needs, but of their bottom line."
The conversation broke down further afer that.
Later that day I called another vendor.

[Yvan256]

That's not quite valid. The keyboard and mouse only take up one USB port, with a net loss of zero USB ports, as long as you're using a keyboard that has a two-port USB hub in it. Plug the mouse into the keyboard, plug the keyboard into the Mac mini, and you still have two free USB ports. :)

That's still basically valid. The keyboard takes one USB port, the mouse takes another one. The fact that you can buy a keyboard with a built-in port is the same argument as me saying I already have a 7-port USB hub. Keyboard + mouse does take 2 ports, but there is a way around it.

That doesn't mean there's more than 2 ports on the Mac mini, though.

[dsharits]

But it's still not an excuse. Besides, there are PC's out there that only have two USB ports.

Daniel

[Yvan256]

Man this computer is stupid!!! There's not even a little blue E to click on!!!

Eh, some people are not even close-minded to computers, but to software as well.

This guy would have a hard time even on my Windows XP computer... There's only a "little red O" to click on. ;)

[Mav451]

*shaking head*

Not really. I got my A7N8X is early 2003, and that alone has 4-onboard USB2.0 ports. Additionally, my case AX-01BLD, also form early 2003 has 2 front-panel USB2.0 ports + Firewire connection on the front panel.

That is from the year 2003. The case cost me maybe $60? We are now in the year 2005. If i had a USB Mouse, KB, Gamepad, Thumbdrive, iPod, and of course a printer, I would NOT be comfortable putting all of those into a hub. The iPod and Thumbdrive, already need dedicated connections. Having a non-dedicated connection for your KB may not be a good idea down the line either (if your bandwidth gets saturated >> erratic typing).

[Yvan256]

My all time favourite

"If everyone owned a Mac then IT people would be out of a job" and this guy thought this was a vaild argument against Macs.

:rolleyes:

Well, think about it for a second. He's right.

In fact, I've had a discussion just a few days ago with the owner of a PC store, and one fact they don't like to sell Macs is because the profit margins are too low and (especially) since they're pratically maintenance-free (compared to PCs, anyway).

The big bucks are in the maintenance and tech support fees, not the hardware.

That's why there's so few resellers... No cash to make. Except for Apple, who makes the whole thing (hardware and software).

The only sad thing about this is that most people seem to accept this as the only possible way to do computing. If the same were true with cars, you'd see lots of KIAs or LADAs on the road (no offense intended to KIA or LADA owners).

[Yvan256]

"Macs are just toys... besides, they can't even play my favorite game." :eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

Funny, I thought game consoles were the supposed toys. And both my Xbox and Gamecube can't play my favorite game either (World of Warcraft, for now anyway).

[Yvan256]

Yea I've heard that one a ton... but is that really a bad thing? I mean all the person is doing is bashing a computer for the fact that its easy to use. :confused:

Remember, a lot of PC users are like those folks who keep working and tuning their cars. They're proud of it, and think Macs are lame because you can't tweak it.

Regular people, however, just drive their cars around instead of fiddling with the mechanics. And that's what a car should be.

Those mac bashers simply don't get that you can actually do something with the computers, they're too busy adding neon lights and similar crap.

I laugh at computers with neon lights the same way I laugh at moded cars. They don't look cool, they look stupid.

[dsharits]

*shaking head*

Not really. I got my A7N8X is early 2003, and that alone has 4-onboard USB2.0 ports. Additionally, my case AX-01BLD, also form early 2003 has 2 front-panel USB2.0 ports + Firewire connection on the front panel.

That is from the year 2003. The case cost me maybe $60? We are now in the year 2005. If i had a USB Mouse, KB, Gamepad, Thumbdrive, iPod, and of course a printer, I would NOT be comfortable putting all of those into a hub. The iPod and Thumbdrive, already need dedicated connections. Having a non-dedicated connection for your KB may not be a good idea down the line either (if your bandwidth gets saturated >> erratic typing).

I didn't say all, I said some PC's only have two USB ports, but nobody is making a big stink about them, are they? People only make this argument because it's a Mac. If a PC manufacturer made a PC as small and as cool as the Mac Mini, and it only had one USB port, people would still be saying what a great concept it is, and how it is just perfect for the average consumer, blah, blah, blah. Because it's a Mac, you get all of this nit-picking. "Well it only has two USB ports, but my Super Duper Gateway Box-O-Crap has four, and I only paid $399 for it." It's the same thing as the stupid single mouse button argument. People complain endlessly about it, when they can fix the problem with a ten-dollar trip to Best Buy, just as they can with the USB port complaint. Like all PC vs Mac arguments, they can't compare along the same level. If they're talking about price, it ends up being a comparison between a dual 2.5 GHz Power Mac G5 and a junk $299 Dell special. If they're arguing performance, it's always a comparison between a dual AMD processor gaming machine and a Mac Mini. The bottom line is that the Mac Mini runs OS X, and all of those PC's run Windows. That is the single advantage that puts the Mac Mini far above any deal that any PC manufacturer can come up with, bottom line.

Daniel

[Mav451]

Nah, but if it had 4 USB2.0 ports, this argument would not even be occuring. Honestly, 2 ports >> maybe 1" by 1" area.

I already know that there's OSX on there (its a given), its just that this is an extra hassle. Joe User would connect his KB and mouse, and suddenly realize he's out of ports already. If he has a Thumbdrive, iPod, Printer, Scanner, Camera >> the list goes on, where does he connect it to?

Sure, forcing Joe User to buy a USB Hub would be good for business, but for Apple customers, I say this is another hassle. The equivalent of a PC user having to buy a Firewire PCI card for his computer from '99.

[dsharits]

Remember, a lot of PC users are like those folks who keep working and tuning their cars. They're proud of it, and think Macs are lame because you can't tweak it.

Regular people, however, just drive their cars around instead of fiddling with the mechanics. And that's what a car should be.

Those mac bashers simply don't get that you can actually do something with the computers, they're too busy adding neon lights and similar crap.

I laugh at computers with neon lights the same way I laugh at moded cars. They don't look cool, they look stupid.

In that case, their argument is that Apple products are already too cool to add neon lights and all that stuff. Which is true, by the way. The only appearance modding I have ever done to any Mac is add a blue LED fan to the power supply of my B&W. Even then, it wasn't necessary to look good, I wanted a quieter fan, and it was all that Best Buy had in stock. I can't stand talking to those hardcore PC users, who think that adding lights and crap their Dell is cool and fun. :rolleyes:

Daniel

[Mav451]

Remember, a lot of PC users are like those folks who keep working and tuning their cars. They're proud of it, and think Macs are lame because you can't tweak it.

Regular people, however, just drive their cars around instead of fiddling with the mechanics. And that's what a car should be.

Those mac bashers simply don't get that you can actually do something with the computers, they're too busy adding neon lights and similar crap.

I laugh at computers with neon lights the same way I laugh at moded cars. They don't look cool, they look stupid.

Well, that's usually the junior high/high school group. I don't think I've seen a single college guy with "neon lights". Now, water-cooling or silent-PC modifications, I've seen alot more of those. Those are useful. W/C >> for the overclockers + those who can't stand the noise of high CFM air-coolers. And silent-PC modders? Those that want to sleep within 10 feet of there machine (dorm room).

[Yvan256]

Well, its tough to preach to the non-believers. (hmm...) If they refuses to see our point, telling them otherwise would only make them more defensive and harder to change.

Most of the time I get from other people is that "Macs just look pretty and cost too much and I could get an equivalent of a PC for half the price", some (not really haters) just say "but I don't know how to use a Mac"

There's two kinds of people (on all sides, Microsoft, Apple, Sun, Amiga, etc):
- haters (even if you put proofs in front of them, they'll still hate)
- victims of FUD (if you put proofs in front of them, they can change their minds)

Haters are a hopeless case. Victims of FUD are the ones who are potential switchers.

Apple isn't perfect. But when compared to the alternatives, it might seem that way.

[Mav451]

In that case, their argument is that Apple products are already too cool to add neon lights and all that stuff. Which is true, by the way. The only appearance modding I have ever done to any Mac is add a blue LED fan to the power supply of my B&W. Even then, it wasn't necessary to look good, I wanted a quieter fan, and it was all that Best Buy had in stock. I can't stand talking to those hardcore PC users, who think that adding lights and crap their Dell is cool and fun. :rolleyes:

Daniel

LOL. Before you continue to throw mud at PC users, you need to realize that not a single Dell computer case has a window.

[dejo]

The equivalent of a PC user having to buy a Firewire PCI card for his computer from '99.

Or even his computer from '05! (Not many cheap PCs come with FireWire ports).

[dsharits]

Joe User would connect his KB and mouse, and suddenly realize he's out of ports already. If he has a Thumbdrive, iPod, Printer, Scanner, Camera >> the list goes on, where does he connect it to?

Well, it sounds like Joe User needs to wake up and realize that he's not in Micro-land any more, and he can connect his iPod to a FireWire port at least. For the other peripherals, I would just use an Apple Keyboard and mouse, and plug a hub into the other USB port. It would be more convenient than having the USB ports in the back, anyway.

Daniel

[dsharits]

LOL. Before you continue to throw mud at PC users, you need to realize that not a single Dell computer case has a window.

Why do you think they add 'em? :p

Daniel

[Yvan256]

Tell the peopl that say that the Ghz=speed. Ghz speed of the cpu has got very very little to do with actual performance. The PowerPC cpu's get more done in each cycle than the x86 once and are actually at lot faster than the P4+ the 2.5 version from mac has a 1.25Ghz FSB wich is a lot higher and they come in Dual configuration not single such as the P4 :D

Even better, stay in x86 land to make your comparisons. Why is my "Athlon XP 2400+" running at "only" 1.92GHz? (according to XP). There's a reason why AMD went this way (rating instead of actual clock speed).

Another exemple: I'm running the World Community Grid client, and the comparison device is a Pentium 4 @ 1.5GHz for a score of 100.

Why is my Athlon XP 1.92GHz getting a score of 192? That's 92% more results for only 33% more clock speed.

After showing him these numbers (WCG client numbers for a x86 processor on Windows XP), then he'll be more aware and more open about the MHz myth. It happens on the very platform he's (probably) currently using.

[Yvan256]

not an excuse ;)

You can also connect the mouse to one of the 2 ports on the keyboard, or go bluetooth and use none. :p

Cheers

It's a good and real-world excuse. Most USB keyboards don't have a built-in hub. And that's if you have a USB keyboard to begin with.

After all, isn't the Mac mini supposed to be targeting potential switchers?

I do agree with the bluetooth options, but considering most PC users are still on PS/2 keyboards (with USB mouses), bluetooth only adds cost to the Mac mini, it doesn't apply for switchers, why is the main goal.

So yes, it's not impossible to connect more than a USB keyboard and mouse on the Mac mini (bluetooth, keyboard with built-in hub, external usb hub, PS/2 adapter that only use one port), but for most people, this is exactly what will happen. Keyboard + mouse = no ports left.

[Yvan256]

"1) "You can't use an iPod on a Mac"

LOL, that has to be the funniest anti-Mac argument I've ever seen. Thanks for the quote. :D

In case it wasn't understood, this is because when he plugged it into his Windows, he set it up for Windows, so in a Mac, it didn't work...

Isn't OS X supposed to read FAT32 drives? Isn't a Windows-formatted iPod supposed to work on a Mac? (unless it was OS 9, in which case I have no idea if it should work).

2) "I already have a Windows and whenever it breaks my neighbor can fix it but he can't fix Macs" - Well... you get the picture...

Indeed. People are so used to Windows, they now expect the computer to be a source of constant problems.

[Mav451]

Originally Posted by dotdotdot
"1) "You can't use an iPod on a Mac"


Lol, that is too much. Like the Miller Light "Taste Loss" commercial:

There are no stupid questions regarding taste loss.
"Can I get taste loss from a fooseball table?"
I stand corrected.

[Yvan256]

Stop!


By using Adolf Hitler's name you have invoked Godwin's Law. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law)


:D


p.s. It may be poor form to even bring it up. I don't mind breaking this law myself as I frankly, don't give a damn, my dear...

Nope, it was timely and spot-on.

Even made me laugh. Like you almost were waiting for such a comment to show up to be able to shout "stop". :D

[Yvan256]

Wait.... There's other things you can do with your computer???

.... What's this "email" about?

That's the thing you receive your porn with. At work, even. :eek:

[Yvan256]

Price.

Price.

And oh yeah,

Price.

Many people just think pc's are a better bang for the buck. I'm not saying it's a valid argument, I'm just saying people look blindly and ignorantly at the price vs. features. On paper it looks like they are getting a lot more for their money with a cheap-ass Gateway compared to a comparible (again, on paper) mac.

Of course we all know that's not true, but it can be tough to convince people of that.

Exactly. People only see numbers and never do comparisons. They see high GHz, low price. The only things regular users can compare (and be right) is the RAM, HD size, GPU, VRAM, number of ports, etc. Anything else cannot be directly compared.

If you want one more proof that people only see numbers: most people really believe that USB 2.0 (480mbps) is faster than FireWire (400mbps). All tests and benchmarks show the opposite. And that's not even taking into account the CPU % used up by USB 2.0 compared to FireWire...

[Yvan256]

But it's still not an excuse. Besides, there are PC's out there that only have two USB ports.

Daniel

Yes, but PCs with only two USB ports are usually old computers and/or also have PS/2 ports.

[dsharits]

I saw a PC a few months ago that had two PS/2 ports and two rear USB ports, and it came with a USB keyboard and mouse.

Daniel

[Yvan256]

I didn't say all, I said some PC's only have two USB ports, but nobody is making a big stink about them, are they? People only make this argument because it's a Mac.

Absolutely not. Apple really is to blame in this case. Let me explain you why.

When they announced the Mac mini, it was clearly aimed to potential switchers (no keyboard or mouse included to cut costs and allow people to re-use their existing keyboard and mouse).

However, the mistake Apple made is they were still in Apple-land when they added the ports. Apple keyboards have 2 ports built-in. Apple offers bluetooth. With these two options you end up with two free USB ports.

But in reality, most switchers won't even HAVE a USB keyboard (most mices are USB though). So even if they DO buy a USB keyboard (non-Apple), they're not likely to have a hub in it.

Which means that either Apple should've made the Mac mini with a minimum of 3 ports (keyboard, mouse, printer) and ideally 4 ports (keyboard, mouse, printer, scanner/camera/etc). It should also have included a Dual-PS/2-to-USB adapter, just like they included the DVI-to-VGA adapter.

Granted, you can fix the whole problem with either a hub and/or a PS/2-to-USB adapter, but that means that out-of-the-box, most switchers will end up with either zero USB ports left or not even being able to connector their keyboard (Apple never said you could use your PS/2 gear, but for something aimed at switchers, they didn't really look at what people had at home either).

And lastly, Apple is proud of the form factor of the Mac mini. As a user I'd be annoyed to have even more cables/boxes (adapter, hub) around the Mac mini just to be able to use the computer, it ruins the whole idea of "small, compact, neat".

If you want to talk about stupid things on the PC side, let's talk about the hot-plug HD cartridge some computers now have. Some idiot decided to use USB 2.0 instead of FireWire... Because "480mbps is faster than 400mbps", I suppose. :rolleyes:

[Yvan256]

I saw a PC a few months ago that had two PS/2 ports and two rear USB ports, and it came with a USB keyboard and mouse.

Daniel

And I bet your found that to be both funny and stupid.

Same thing applies for the Mac mini. For the target, it misses the boat for PS/2 connectivity (easily fixed with Apple adding the adapter in future shipments) and USB ports (they need to add at least two ports in the back).

We're not bashing it because it's Apple. That PC you just mentionned is in fact even more stupid because they not only shipped USB gear for a PC with PS/2 connectors but also because that computer won't have any ports left once you connect the keyboard and mouse.

[dejo]

Same thing applies for the Mac mini. For the target, it misses the boat for PS/2 connectivity (easily fixed with Apple adding the adapter in future shipments) and USB ports (they need to add at least two ports in the back).

I don't think there really is any more room on the back for another two USB ports. And putting them on the back isn't always convenient. I'd rather see Apple add a couple of USB ports to the sides of the mini (one on each side). Don't want to disrupt the clean look of the front, so I suggest the sides instead.

[dsharits]

Something just occurred to me. Why does nobody complain about every Power Mac since the B&W's with the sole exception of the G5? The B&W's and every single Power Mac G4 only has two USB ports, and they all shipped with USB keyboards and mice.

Daniel

[Nickygoat]

1) "You can't use an iPod on a Mac" - my friend said this like two days ago. I'm like "are you an idiot? Who do you think MAKES the iPod!?!?" and hes like "But on my friends [Mac] computer when I plugged in my iPod it didnt work" Edit: In case it wasn't understood, this is because when he plugged it into his Windows, he set it up for Windows, so in a Mac, it didn't work...

Not true - Windows iPods are formatted using FAT32. Mac iPods use HFS+ OSX can read FAT32 but not the other way round. If you connect a Windows formatted iPod to a Mac it will work perfectly. I did this the other day for a friend who was having trouble with his iPod (Windows). iTunes gave me the message that it was associated with another iTunes library and did I want to change it. I clicked no and could add and delete songs onto his iPod. This is not supported by Apple but it does work.

[Yvan256]

Something just occurred to me. Why does nobody complain about every Power Mac since the B&W's with the sole exception of the G5? The B&W's and every single Power Mac G4 only has two USB ports, and they all shipped with USB keyboards and mice.

Daniel

You answered your own question without realizing it. All Apple computers ship with an Apple keyboard, which has a built-in 2-port USB hub.

The Mac mini, on the other hand, doesn't have any keyboard or mouse. It's targeted at switchers who probably won't have a hub in their keyboard, if the keyboard is USB in the first place (which, in all probability, won't be).

But yes, now that you mention it, only having two USB ports (even with a keyboard with a built-in port) seems kinda weak.

The iMac G5 does have more ports too (see http://asia.cnet.com/i/r/2004/pg/39192080/sc009.jpg), even though there's two ports on the keyboard. It also have two FireWire ports. While I understand Apple for putting less ports on the Mac mini, it should at least have 3 ports (keyboard, mouse, printer).

[Kreamy]

You answered your own question without realizing it. All Apple computers ship with an Apple keyboard, which has a built-in 2-port USB hub.

The Mac mini, on the other hand, doesn't have any keyboard or mouse. It's targeted at switchers who probably won't have a hub in their keyboard, if the keyboard is USB in the first place (which, in all probability, won't be).

But yes, now that you mention it, only having two USB ports (even with a keyboard with a built-in port) seems kinda weak.

The iMac G5 does have more ports too (see http://asia.cnet.com/i/r/2004/pg/39192080/sc009.jpg), even though there's two ports on the keyboard. It also have two FireWire ports. While I understand Apple for putting less ports on the Mac mini, it should at least have 3 ports (keyboard, mouse, printer).

NTM that in the days of the early G4s, the USB functionality was nowhere near as large as it is now. Apple was much bigger on firewire than USB (they have reason to as well, they invented firewire many years ago and its still faster than USB2 today)

[dsharits]

NTM that in the days of the early G4s, the USB functionality was nowhere near as large as it is now. Apple was much bigger on firewire than USB (they have reason to as well, they invented firewire many years ago and its still faster than USB2 today)

But even the MDD's had only two.

Daniel

[Daveway]

Has the, "Where's the rest of the keyboard?!" comment come up yet?

[~loserman~]

Mac's have a stupid menu bar at the top. That you cant get rid of.
When you close an App on a Mac it doesn't really close it just closes the active Window.
When you download compressed files on a Mac they automatically unzip on your desktop and clutter everything up.
The finder interface for navigating to your programs is lame.
A one button mouse is lame. Especially when all the context menus are there to use if you had a 3 button mouse.
No one can figure out what half the stupid symbols are for using keystrokes instead of the mouse.
Powerbook displays are too dim.
They didn't include a ps2 port for a keyboard on the mini.
Appletalk was and is awful.
rendezvous is too chatty.
The darwin kernel is very inefficient and has poor memory management
There are very few games on the Mac.
Nvidia 5200
Unless you do graphics art, video editing or desktop publishing you have very few software choices.
Mac OS 1 thru 9
No serial port.
No built in SD card reader
Al Gore on board of directors.

[dsharits]

Al Gore on board of directors.
As much as I hate to admit it, that actually is a decent argument for using a PC. :p

Daniel

[Mav451]

Lockbox baby. 'nuff said. I mean, lockbox + FileVault, how much more safe could you be?

That's a plus dude.

[iKnezek]

Macs can't be customized like pcs can
iLife isn't that great, and can be matched very cheaply on pc
Mac harware is way overpriced
Macs aren't compatible with...(insert random thing here)
Macs are vastly slower
Macs suck at games (kinda true, hopefully it will be better in Tiger)
You can't find any peripherals that work with Macs.
Os X is a toy operating system (???):confused:
Os X is just a less-customizable Linux

These are just a few, I know I've heard more, but I can't remeber them now.

[chaosbunny]

Have you actually heard somebody use that argument? If you have to give consideration to which will do better in a fall you have bigger problems than "should I get a Mac or a PC?"



I LOVE the Photoshop blowhards who say you can't do anything without the fastest computer and gigabytes upon gigabytes of RAM. I really have to wonder what they're doing becuase the professional design and print world is running on 400-800 mhz G4s with under 1GB of RAM. It's not uncommon to find pre-G3 PowerMacs still in use. These are the computers used to design the magazine ads you see every month, the stupid messages on T shirts, the posters for the big dumb movie that's coming out next month--everything.

The blowhards are probably doing hard core stuff like red-eye reduction on the pictures from their 26 megapixel cameras that they don't know how to use properly.

The goal shouldn't be to win an argument with these people though. Just learn enough about them to recognize them and avoid them when you see them. Arguing why your Mac is better than their PC (and it is better) is pointless. Just be happy using your Mac. If you wanted to get upset over stupid things you'd just use Windows in the first place.

I'm with you! I often wonder what they are doing to get 2 GB Photoshop files, layouting books in Photoshop? Maybe they should learn some Illustrator, InDesign, XPress to call themselves graphic designers. I'd call them "filter users" :D

[Horrortaxi]

I read something interesting last night: Both in the US and worldwide Apple has a higher market share than Sony on both desktop and laptop computers. So if someone tells you Apple is going to go belly up from lack of market share the logic of that argument dictates that Sony will too.

Most likely the explanation is that Sony and Apple are both makers of premium of computers. Most people don't care about "premium" so both have low market share (while Dell ranks at the top by a wide margin). If you do care about "premium" you're probably more inclined to buy a Mac.

I just offer this as an interesting fact. I still say it's not a good idea to argue whether the Mac or PC is better. Just be comfortable in your choice. If you do need to show up some Windows users, do it by having your slow, overpriced, pretty, non-compatible computer do more work than their computers.

[eroda]

i dont really get this argument Windows/Mac/Linux i use all the 3 platform types
(when refering to mac not osx but os9 like)

its all the same to me i can swithc from one to another like changing underwear

[Chappers]

and

Macs are not real computers

Its not real unix in macosx

[jefhatfield]

"Most software isn't compatible with macs"

Which is true...

but there are a lot of pc titles that work with macs that i find in a pc store like office depot or staples...it's buried in the fine print

[ct77]

Im working on a project....
Im compiling a list of the most common blind faced arguments that mac haters make, and specific facts and statistics that we can rebut with.


You might find this thread at Macintouch interesting:

http://macintouch.com/macjust.html

[Stefanlod001]

do you know WHY pc vendors almost always have just a background on the screen of computers in their ads?! its because windows now looks so unappealing now that it doesn't even go with the design of the computer. and with apple computers, it always shows the desktop (except for a couple of powerbook ads). and about mac hating comments, someone i know said he LIKED fixing windows when it stuffed up. another funny instance: some people were printing off some things to a usb printer - one guy was using an ibook was asked "you sure that'll print on your fancy mac?" and it printed just fine and it didn't even need time to load drivers. the other guy plugged in his pc and after about 30 seconds of loading drivers, it wouldn't print. the guy with the ibook said "you sure that'll print with your fancy pc?"

[JRM PowerPod]

Really? When I sense that trait, I'm actually drawn toward them. Of course, after the conversation, they wish I hadn't been. :D

Daniel

Those sort or people seem to have the same problem with me too

[Plymouthbreezer]

From the thread "Why don't you use a Mac?" at that other forum:
I do agree that Macs don't have as many problems with spyware/viruses as PCs do, but software for Macs is more expensive, and finding the right software can be a little more difficult since there are more sites for PC software out there.Umm, d'oh! And about the finding software part... That's just lazy.

The best analogy that I can find for the comparison between Macs and PCs:

Macs = cushy luxury cars with automatic transmissions for people who don't want to deal with maintenance.

PCs = Honda Civics with standard transmissions. A little work and TLC and they'll blow anything else out of the water.
This is funny... First off, the idea is sorta true... Where it gets messed is the part where he says "Civics with work are fast!" Okay, I don't know about anyone else here, but Ricer cars are ghay, and NOT fast. A nice "cushy luxury car" with a big V8 will "blow anything else out of the water." As a self proclaimed car nut (my user name, the Plymouth Breeze is a car in case you didn't know) and overall guru of the automotive industry all-around, I feel confident in making these claims (that Civic's are not fast cars). If you know anything about real car stuff (not what this guy thinks he knows), then you know he's wrong.

Anywho, I've also got the "Mac's are for fags" a lot. Being an art student in a high level art class at school, I get this even more from stupid kids who relate art=gay. Regardless, this doesn't really bother me, because I'm not gay.

A have one friend who is your typical Mac Hater. She dismisses my arguments for Macs and against Windows as me being a "Mac Fanboy." She does the common, "Macs are for rich artsy snobs who don't do 'real computer stuff'." What's funny is I find most advanced (or at least most of us here who are "geek" enough to post on this forum :P) Mac folks use more of their computers then most Windows people do. With iLife and other time saving apps, there's no reason why WE shouldn't. On the other hand, Windows users have to spend their time dealing with viruses, spyware, and crashes - what they consider "real computer stuff." Oh the irony.

About the price argument. I really don't see a reason we need to defend Apple in this regard. If you can afford the better quality product, then there's no reason you shouldn't have it. I'm grateful I'm able to afford a Mac, an iPod, and OS upgrades as well as good software, if not, oh well, I guess that's life. Bottom line is the Macs are better engineered products, and while they may cost more, the final result is better. Kinda goes back to the car analogy: Apple makes the cushy, fast BMWs or Mercedes, while your bread and butter brands are Wintels. You pay more for the high end, but you get what you pay for. While everyone can't afford it (or even have a desire for it), it's a reward for those who are "doing better."

[tech4all]

Anywho, I've also got the "Mac's are for fags" a lot. Being an art student in a high level art class at school, I get this even more from stupid kids who relate art=gay. Regardless, this doesn't really bother me, because I'm not gay.

I usually hear that comment from 'children', which gets really old after a while.

A have one friend who is your typical Mac Hater. She dismisses my arguments for Macs and against Windows as me being a "Mac Fanboy." She does the common, "Macs are for rich artsy snobs who don't do 'real computer stuff'."

I wonder how she defines "real computer stuff". Maybe scanning for viruses and spyware everyday? Or actual REAL work without the worry of viruses and spyware.

What's funny is I find most advanced (or at least most of us here who are "geek" enough to post on this forum :P) Mac folks use more of their computers then most Windows people do. With iLife and other time saving apps, there's no reason why WE shouldn't. On the other hand, Windows users have to spend their time dealing with viruses, spyware, and crashes - what they consider "real computer stuff." Oh the irony.

I didn't even read when I made my last comment :p

[Mav451]

On the other hand, Windows users have to spend their time dealing with viruses, spyware, and crashes - what they consider "real computer stuff." Oh the irony.

You know what most people (well outside of your one-sided RDF) call that statement?

FUD.

If you used XP everyday (like I do), I have yet to deal with viruses. Even since '97, I have yet to pick up a virus. Spyware? I use Firefox. I don't waste a signle minute "dealing with viruses/spyware/crashes." I've wasted more time restarting the Dual 2.0G5 boxes at the university library than I have restarting my XP box in my dorm room.

Restarts at the WAM lab? Easily 6-8 on KPs alone. My own? 0.

When I was tweaking my overclock, of course, but when I found my sweet spot (as you can see in my sig), I never had to do a hard restart.

[Plymouthbreezer]

I usually hear that comment from 'children', which gets really old after a while.
Yeah, I get it from the kids at my High School. I'm 15 (Freshmen).

I wonder how she defines "real computer stuff". Maybe scanning for viruses and spyware everyday? Or actual REAL work without the worry of viruses and spyware...

...I didn't even read when I made my last comment :p
We were both thinking the same thing. Hah. :)

You know what most people (well outside of your one-sided RDF) call that statement?

FUD.
Reality-Distortion Field - Nope, just my humble opinion. I wasn't asking you for an agreement. Nor do I ask my friend for one. If she's content with dealing with that stuff, so be it. I won't accept inferior, half a***d "solutions" that Windows provides.

FUD - Oh how I'm so scared of Windows users and doubtful of my Macs capabilities!

Let me ask you, why do you post here? Obviously you don't come to a Mac forum and attack users (like you did me) who enthusiastically support their products on our "home turf." Feel free to flame Macs on Wintel boards.

[jsalzer]

Regardless, this doesn't really bother me, because I'm not gay.

Hold it, hold it, hold it. You mean there are practicing breeders out there who are using Macs? That's not how the switch campaign was supposed to work.

There go our plans for world domination!

It was a key part of the plan.

A) Get breeders to fall in love with the Mac and switch teams so they can get one.

B) Use a superior computer. Be more productive. Take over all major corporations. Buy all seats in the Congress.

Now we'll have to go back to the long-term plan of using the Teletubbies. Darn. :(

:)

[Plymouthbreezer]

Hold it, hold it, hold it. You mean there are practicing breeders out there who are using Macs? That's not how the switch campaign was supposed to work.

There go our plans for world domination!

It was a key part of the plan.

A) Get breeders to fall in love with the Mac and switch teams so they can get one.

B) Use a superior computer. Be more productive. Take over all major corporations. Buy all seats in the Congress.

Now we'll have to go back to the long-term plan of using the Teletubbies. Darn. :(

:)Eh? I assume you were kidding...?

[Mav451]

Yeah, I get it from the kids at my High School. I'm 15 (Freshmen).


And think that sums up your perspective perfectly. When you are more mature and have legitimate experience with both, then come back and talk.

[Plymouthbreezer]

And think that sums up your perspective perfectly. When you are more mature and have legitimate experience with both, then come back and talk.With both what?

I find it comical that because you now know I'm "only 15," you feel you can easily find faults in my views. My age doesn't make my opinion any less valid then yours.

If it's any consolation, I'm a straight A student, National Honor Society member, serve on student council, class secretary, Senior Patrol Leader of my Boy Scout Troop, Student Liaison to my city's school committee, four time technology fairs first place winner, nationally honored youth artist, admin of my own website (no, it's not about videogames, sex and drugs as you would assume, I mean after all, that what most 15 year olds do all day :rolleyes: ) and moderator of another Mac forum. How foolish of you to use ones age to underestimate ones “maturity.”

[Mav451]

With both what?

I find it comical that because you now know I'm "only 15," you feel you can easily find faults in my views. My age doesn't make my opinion any less valid then yours.

If it's any consolation, I'm a straight A student, National Honor Society member, serve on student council, class secretary, Senior Patrol Leader of my Boy Scout Troop, Student Liaison to my city's school committee, four time technology fairs first place winner, nationally honored youth artist, admin of my own website (no, it's not about videogames, sex and drugs as you would assume, I mean after all, that what most 15 year olds do all day :rolleyes: ) and moderator of another Mac forum. How foolish of you to use ones age to underestimate ones “maturity.”

All of that has no bearing on your knowledge of PCs or Macs. Your diction/language/tone from your prior posts reveals your immaturity.
If you talked more like you just did in your most recent post, I would actually listen.


Let me ask you, why do you post here? Obviously you don't come to a Mac forum and attack users (like you did me) who enthusiastically support their products on our "home turf."


See? That's the post of a fanboy. On the otherhand, your most recent post at least shows that you have a brain. If you most of your posts look like that, then it lends a ton more credibility to your posts. There is a difference to attacking PC users and attacking the system itself. And then there is a difference in supporting your allegations.

[jsalzer]

Eh? I assume you were kidding...?

Yup - no worldwide conspiracy - just poking a little fun at implications that there is. Though it's a nice thought that Steve would help in the conspiracy. Um, I mean, alleged conspiracy. :)

Not sure what's up with Mav - I'd put it out of your mind until he comes back and explains what he meant.

You're quite well-spoken for a 15-year-old in the U.S. Are you sure you went through our education system? ;)

(Edit - sorry, Mav, we criss-crossed.)

[Plymouthbreezer]

All of that has no bearing on your knowledge of PCs or Macs. Your diction/language/tone from your prior posts reveals your immaturity.
If you talked more like you just did in your most recent post, I would actually listen.


See? That's the post of a fanboy. On the otherhand, your most recent post at least shows that you have a brain. If you most of your posts look like that, then it lends a ton more credibility to your posts. There is a difference to attacking PC users and attacking the system itself. And then there is a difference in supporting your allegations.
My last post was in response to this thread's topic, not directed towards you (let me remind you that you replied to MY post).

Once again, you're still taking advantage of my age, as you condescending tone regarding my ONE post you read is very apparent. I love how you so effectively used “RDF” in this last post, and it's mind-blowing how you claim I attacked you when you posted this:
You know what most people (well outside of your one-sided RDF) call that statement?

FUD

And this:
And think that sums up your perspective perfectly. When you are more mature and have legitimate experience with both, then come back and talk.

If you weren’t so quick to make allegations towards me (based on my age... Your claim that my “diction/language/tone” from my prior posts "revealed my immaturity” is pure BS), then maybe I would actually have listened.

[Plymouthbreezer]

Yup - no worldwide conspiracy - just poking a little fun at implications that there is. Though it's a nice thought that Steve would help in the conspiracy. Um, I mean, alleged conspiracy. :)

Not sure what's up with Mav - I'd put it out of your mind until he comes back and explains what he meant.

You're quite well-spoken for a 15-year-old in the U.S. Are you sure you went through our education system? ;)

(Edit - sorry, Mav, we criss-crossed.)Ah. I'm sure Steve might aid in such a conspiracy... :D :p

Many thanks. I have gone through "our" education system (amazingly, I go to a public school!). I've taken many advanced writing/public speaking classes in the past few years that have all improved my eloquence (so my teachers say...) to a level where I can have intellectual conversations with most adults and leave them saying "My god, you're only 15?!" I also enjoy reading very much. They are correct when they say "read, read, read!" :)

[Mav451]

My last post was in response to this thread's topic, not directed towards you (let me remind you that you replied to MY post).

Once again, you're still taking advantage of my age, as you condescending tone regarding my ONE post you read is very apparent. I love how you so effectively used “RDF” in this last post, and it's mind-blowing how you claim I attacked you when you posted this:


And this:


If you weren’t so quick to make allegations towards me (based on my age... Your claim that my “diction/language/tone” from my prior posts "revealed my immaturity” is pure BS), then maybe I would actually have listened.


Look, I once was 15, and I once was a fanboy too. When you get older (i.e. 20-23) in college, you start to notice things. These things could mean meeting new people, new beliefs, cultures, etc.

I'm just saying that one should not be so firm in their beliefs that you dismiss ANYTHING that says something negatively against your view.

[Horrortaxi]

See? That's the post of a fanboy.

Wow, a fanboy on a website dedicated to rumors, gossip, and the minuita of Apple Computers. Should we alert the authorities? Who would read this site BUT a fanboy and why would YOU with 1400+ posts not have realized that already?

Mav, you should really leave the kid alone. You're telling him his opinion doesn't matter because he's 15. He needs to live a little before opening his mouth. That's just silly. What's going to stop me from telling you the same thing? I was a college know-it-all once too and my advice is to take it easy on that attitude. And I'm right, aren't I? You know...because I'm older than you are. :rolleyes:

[Mechcozmo]

If you buy a Mac you'll marry a girl with no rack (yea- strange people out there)

I do believe that can be summed up with a good old "What the hell?" statement. It doesn't even bother trying to connect to computers or anything. Oh well...

To add to the thread's topic:
"You can't build your own Mac."
(the argument against it may be a bit too complicated for the average Windows tolerator).

You can upgrade a Mac but you can't really go out and build a brand-new one like you can a PC. But Macs are amazingly easy to upgrade and work on. Any G4 PowerMac is opened with a flip up of that switch thingy and then RAM gets pressed in, etc. Far easier than working on a PC but then again, the PC is brand-new. This G4 isn't.

I have to reject that statement because the implication is if Christians and Windows users are sheep, that would mean Bill Gates is Jesus. :eek:

Please don't scare me.... although it is interesting to wonder if Steve Jobs is, in fact, the Maccies savior? (Maccies, pronounced "Mac-ees" is a word that a friend of mine uses to describe people who use Macs. I actually like it...)

Wow Adolf.. that wasn't unbiased, judgemental, or completely rude. Thats like saying all linux users are Muslim, unix users are Hindu, and OSX users are rich Jews.....
Alright, ignoring the amazing amount of stupidity and racism that this comment gives out... next time, think before you start involving religion and mass murders.

"MSN sucks on the mac and thats all i use my computer for"

they had a 3.4GHz EE dell with a radeon 9800 pro and akll they used it for is msn and solitare :mad:

Read my signature, people! :D

See? That's the post of a fanboy.
I am a huge fan of the Mac. I impress them onto a number of people. And I am usually quite a bit younger than them. I'd suggest letting people mature for a few years and just take what they say if they are young a bit cautiously.

[dotdotdot]

I heard a few new ones from new iPod owners:

"I never used a Mac and everything I dont use sucks"
"Didn't Microsoft make the iPod" (I heard this and thought of Bruce Springsteen... :p )
"Windows works"

[DaveP]

You have to pay $2000 bucks to get a PCI slot.

[tech4all]

"I never used a Mac and everything I dont use sucks"

Hilarious, yet sad :rolleyes: It actually made me laugh aloud.

"Windows works"

Isn't it "Microsoft Works" as in the application software? :confused: But yours works fine to ;)

[Mord]

mav451, he has a point most people are not as sensible as you or I when it comes to looking after an XP box, they download pr0n and open attachments and sometimes outright refuse to use firefox, for the masses they do get spyware and viruses and it's a large problem.

i too have a pc running XP and have yet to have a virus, but my school's system admin has to deal with 3 viruses that get past all the security at my school, and the pc's bluescreen because of faulty hardware, however the techs were smart enough to return them to RM and have the ram replaced, most school/college techs dont know jack about macs so if there is a hardware problem they blame it on the instability of the software most places buy macs and don't hire the staff just leave it to the pc techs, so they fall into disrepair not knowing that macs will never crash unless there is a hardware problem or the OS is seriously messed up which is usually hardware inflicted (dodgy HD ect).

my ibook has never crashed unless i was overclocking it, ever. then again neither has my pc. again unless overclocking it.

and Plymouthbreezer no one likes a fanboy, try to be more even and fair, when people slag off macs on a pc/gameing forum i tend to try and set them straight pointing out clear provable fallacies in there opinions, if the same situation was revced you being on a pc forum and you stumbled on a "pc hater aguements" with posts like "i love my mac better because it matches with my shoes" or "the mac os is pretty so it must be better" it'd piss you off no doubt about it.

what you need to do is be tech support for a few people useing both macs and pc's and you find what it's like for the average person, we are geeks most people are not.

[Plymouthbreezer]

mav451, he has a point most people are not as sensible as you or I when it comes to looking after an XP box, they download pr0n and open attachments and sometimes outright refuse to use firefox, for the masses they do get spyware and viruses and it's a large problem.

i too have a pc running XP and have yet to have a virus, but my school's system admin has to deal with 3 viruses that get past all the security at my school, and the pc's bluescreen because of faulty hardware, however the techs were smart enough to return them to RM and have the ram replaced, most school/college techs dont know jack about macs so if there is a hardware problem they blame it on the instability of the software most places buy macs and don't hire the staff just leave it to the pc techs, so they fall into disrepair not knowing that macs will never crash unless there is a hardware problem or the OS is seriously messed up which is usually hardware inflicted (dodgy HD ect).

my ibook has never crashed unless i was overclocking it, ever. then again neither has my pc. again unless overclocking it.

and Plymouthbreezer no one likes a fanboy, try to be more even and fair, when people slag off macs on a pc/gameing forum i tend to try and set them straight pointing out clear provable fallacies in there opinions, if the same situation was revced you being on a pc forum and you stumbled on a "pc hater aguements" with posts like "i love my mac better because it matches with my shoes" or "the mac os is pretty so it must be better" it'd piss you off no doubt about it.

what you need to do is be tech support for a few people useing both macs and pc's and you find what it's like for the average person, we are geeks most people are not.Guys, I appreciate the support, why do you still fell I'm a "Fan Boy??" I have used Windows over the years, and even was a fan of Windows 98 and the early versions... My personal experiences with Windows XP have been negative, and I know so many people who have also had a negative experience with that OS. If some have good luck with it, all the better! I love Fedora Red Hat and a few years ago owned a Sony Desktop, which I liked very much... Please, please do not label me a fan boy and "just another 15 year old with false, biased views," because it's very foolish considering you don't know any facts about me. Many thanks to Horrortaxi for supporting me in the face of a blind attacker who answers with typical non answers.

With that, this post isn't on topic, so, I'm done discussing my "maturity" with a user who clearly lacks some them self.

[Timelessblur]

You have to pay $2000 bucks to get a PCI slot.

well it is a very vaild argument. Well it used to be now you have to by 1500 to get a PCI slot and an upgradeble APG slot compared to a PC where for under 1 grand you can get a pretty good computer with OS that has PCI slot, APG (maybe even PCI-e) and a monitor.

Guys, I appreciate the support, why do you still fell I'm a "Fan Boy??" I have used Windows over the years, and even was a fan of Windows 98 and the early versions... My personal experiences with Windows XP have been negative, and I know so many people who have also had a negative experience with that OS. If some have good luck with it, all the better! I love Fedora Red Hat and a few years ago owned a Sony Desktop, which I liked very much... Please, please do not label me a fan boy and "just another 15 year old with false, biased views," because it's very foolish considering you don't know any facts about me. Many thanks to Horrortaxi for supporting me in the face of a blind attacker who answers with typical non answers.


At the same time I know a quite a few windows users who have had only negitive expernce on a mac. I for the most part have had a very good experice with XP.

[Horrortaxi]

what you need to do is be tech support for a few people useing both macs and pc's and you find what it's like for the average person, we are geeks most people are not.

Right. He needs to do that so that he can find out what he already knows.

In all my years on Windows I didn't have the epidemic virus and security problems. But there's the Geek Factor you talked about. I knew how to keep that stuff under control. As you pointed out, most people don't have the Geek Factor working for them. Most people can't do their own tech support. Most people are not security experts. Most people just want to turn on their computer and use it without worrying about anything. Unfortunately most people use Windows.

Here's a non-geek story. My mom used to use Windows--a straight out of the box installation. She liked using the internet and scanning pictures. Then her Win 98 got hopelessly buggered up. I reinstalled the OS and put some antivirus/security software on the computer. She was then getting pissed off because the antivirus was always bugging her because it was always finding viruses in her email. She desperately wanted me to turn off the antivirus. I said "are you crazy, that's antivirus! Your computer is going to go back to the way it was if I turn that off." I left it on, and she used the computer less becuase she didn't want to be harassed all the time.

After that I got her a used iMac. She started to use the computer more and do more things with it. I stopped having to troubleshoot "this week's computer problem" every time I went to her house. She's <i>figuring out herself</i> how to do things and fix things now. She's 76 years old and for her birthday I just got her a Mac Mini, which she loves. She has zero geek factor and I have to do virtually zero tech support on her computer.

That's not the extent of my tech support experience. Windows always takes more time to maintain and fix and it breaks far more often. My new mantra is "I don't do Windows". So in my classroom when a kid messes up a PC I don't fix it. I ask for a Mac replacement and since every school has a stack of old Macs sitting around somewhere I always get one. Then I set up the Mac and do very little suport on it--even in OS 9. No frustrated kids without a computer, no pissed off teacher doing tech support, no more problems.

[Mav451]

Guys, I appreciate the support, why do you still fell I'm a "Fan Boy??" I have used Windows over the years, and even was a fan of Windows 98 and the early versions... My personal experiences with Windows XP have been negative, and I know so many people who have also had a negative experience with that OS. If some have good luck with it, all the better! I love Fedora Red Hat and a few years ago owned a Sony Desktop, which I liked very much... Please, please do not label me a fan boy and "just another 15 year old with false, biased views," because it's very foolish considering you don't know any facts about me. Many thanks to Horrortaxi for supporting me in the face of a blind attacker who answers with typical non answers.

With that, this post isn't on topic, so, I'm done discussing my "maturity" with a user who clearly lacks some them self.

Plymouthbreezer: I guess to make a point, my Mac experience, like my XP experience, has been great overall. Now, I have had more kernel panics than BSODs (cumulative of working in the university G5 lab and on my iBook) than my XP box and 98SE box ever had.

Does it make the Mac bad? Heck no. My iBook was a GIFT (a drawing actually) at my university book store. It was literally like God wanted me to use a Mac. Yeah, all I do is 'Net surf and watch movies on it, but that's essentially what I do on my PC as well (+ gaming of course).

I guess, if I were to be a mature adult I would apologize, and right now I am doing that. Plymouthbreezer, I made a horrible judgement call--essentially an emotional "jump to conclusion". I am sorry.

[Plymouthbreezer]

Plymouthbreezer: I guess to make a point, my Mac experience, like my XP experience, has been great overall. Now, I have had more kernel panics than BSODs (cumulative of working in the university G5 lab and on my iBook) than my XP box and 98SE box ever had.

Does it make the Mac bad? Heck no. My iBook was a GIFT (a drawing actually) at my university book store. It was literally like God wanted me to use a Mac. Yeah, all I do is 'Net surf and watch movies on it, but that's essentially what I do on my PC as well (+ gaming of course).

I guess, if I were to be a mature adult I would apologize, and right now I am doing that. Plymouthbreezer, I made a horrible judgement call--essentially an emotional "jump to conclusion". I am sorry.Thank you so much. ;)

With that cleared up, shall we continue the rational, mature debate? :)

[Bobak]

.

[Horrortaxi]

look at this jerk on this site - http://notebookforums.com/showthread.php?t=73414

i gave him his reply.

Exactly the kinds of jerkoffs I try to avoid. Just use your Mac and be happy. You don't need to convince anyone of anything.

[Timelessblur]

look at this jerk on this site - http://notebookforums.com/showthread.php?t=73414

i gave him his reply.


Well you just shown a text book example of why people hate the zeolots and the mac commintty looks like a cult and they want to stay out of it. Btw so the arguments you are using so hard to fight with are either weak or wrong.

[ezekielrage_99]

Read my signature, people! :D


Got to love the signiture.....how true....


One Dell XPS 600 - $2,694

Delivery - $99

A machine plagued by viruses, spyware, crashes, and an XP favourite "Illegal Function Calls", but you can still play Solitare.... Priceless;)


The sad thing is the ABSOLUTE only thing I miss about XP is that annoying time filler Solitare;)

[Josh]

Yesterday, while I recommended Firefox to a Windows user who was having problems, somone said the three most absurd things I've ever heard said all at once:

1) Use IE. It's the best browser there is.

2) IE is the standard for which websites are built. It defines the standards.

3) Only fools use macs.


Honestly...a keyboard and mouse should not be used so freely by some people. *bangs head on wall*

[840quadra]

Honestly...a keyboard and mouse should not be used so freely by some people. *bangs head on wall*

From now on don't hurt yourself for a person posting or saying such idiotic things, hurt THEM!

http://forums.macrumors.com/image.php?u=47064&dateline=1127904880&type=profile Does not promote violence, just punishment! ;)

[Kernow]

The sad thing is the ABSOLUTE only thing I miss about XP is that annoying time filler Solitare;)

Have a peek at Solitaire XL (http://lavacat.com/) then. Now you can waste time on your Mac too (and it looks better than the XP version). :D

[greatdevourer]

Something I noticed while talking to a friend about the possibility of MGS 4 on 360 (which Kirojima says is possible, maybe going to happen - w00t! :D), how many M$ haters are there on this site? Yes, I know, they don't innovate that much and their PC products are crap, but how many are there who refuse to beleive that they make some good products?

[Kernow]

Something I noticed while talking to a friend about the possibility of MGS 4 on 360 (which Kirojima says is possible, maybe going to happen - w00t! :D), how many M$ haters are there on this site? Yes, I know, they don't innovate that much and their PC products are crap, but how many are there who refuse to beleive that they make some good products?

It's a fair point, but certainly from my point of view being a fan of Apple doesn't automatically make me a Microsoft hater.

Having said that, it's our playground and if we want to make fun of the smelly kids down the block then we can. It's just outrageous when they do the same to us. :p

[Horrortaxi]

2) IE is the standard for which websites are built. It defines the standards.

That's partially true. IE REdefines the standards and forces web developers to comply because most users use IE. Call it a monopoly, call it having the public by the balls, call it what you want--it's not a good thing.

You encountered what I like to call "an idiot." Don't waste your time trying to fix him--just refuse to fix his computer when it breaks.

[freeny]

I posted a question on the Windows XP forums asking "Why don't you use a Mac?". I want to see some of these arguments first-hand. Sound like fun? You can follow it here: http://www.softwaretipsandtricks.com/forum/showthread.php?p=66565#post66565

Enjoy!

Daniel
Nice!

allready only into about four posts and this is one of my favorite anti mac quotes;
"Macs = cushy luxury cars with automatic transmissions for people who don't want to deal with maintenance.":rolleyes:

[freeny]

you know you can say the same thing about some of the Mac users who are windows bashes. To make it worse for them a lot of the basher are apple Zealots who think they understand computer windows and computer really well but in reality they dont understand jack.
Im probably one of them. Ive been using macs since 1988 and would consider myself PC illiterate. the few times I have used a PC I was amazed at the hoops you had to go through to do the same things you would do on a mac in a click or two.

[freeny]

I have to reject that statement because the implication is if Christians and Windows users are sheep, that would mean Bill Gates is Jesus. :eek:
No, Jesus is still Jesus. Bill Gates is Billy Grahm...

[Josh]

That's partially true. IE REdefines the standards and forces web developers to comply because most users use IE. Call it a monopoly, call it having the public by the balls, call it what you want--it's not a good thing.

You encountered what I like to call "an idiot." Don't waste your time trying to fix him--just refuse to fix his computer when it breaks.

I see the point you're making, but I disagree.

The web standards are completely seperate from IE - they are controlled by the W3C.

The hacks and tweaks we developers do to make IE work are quite common and 'typical', but I wouldn't go as far as calling them 'standards.'

Whike IE may be the most used browser, if IE is the only browser that developers write special code for just to make it work, I think that puts IE in the minority as far as standards go. I've never written a CSS file specifically for any other browser, but I do it often for IE.

[Horrortaxi]

I see the point you're making, but I disagree.

The web standards are completely seperate from IE - they are controlled by the W3C.

The hacks and tweaks we developers do to make IE work are quite common and 'typical', but I wouldn't go as far as calling them 'standards.'

Whike IE may be the most used browser, if IE is the only browser that developers write special code for just to make it work, I think that puts IE in the minority as far as standards go. I've never written a CSS file specifically for any other browser, but I do it often for IE.

I know that W3C sets the standards and that Microsoft doesn't comply with the standards. But they call their stuff the standard (and because they've got the muscle it becomes the de facto standard regardless of what W3C says). Most end users don't know this or don't care so nothing changes. Try to explain to them that you have to hack compliant code to make the page look right in IE and they don't get it. Ignorance is bliss.

By the way, IE on Mac is dead now. Will this actually affect anybody's life?

[XNine]

I was just leaving a christmas party (I knew NO ONE there, and was getting bored with all of these older rich people around me) and as I was going through the house to get to the coat closet, I ran into a guy tlaking to a girl abotu macs. HE was enthusiatstic and so I dipped in "sorry, I used to work for Apple" and we started talking and I told the girl about the intel move, what to look for when it happens, why macs are better than PC's (cos WINDOWS CAN SUCK IT!).

The guy that was tlaking said he moved from MS to Linux, then to OS X cos it kicks linux's ass (mostly true). We talked for a good 20 minutes before I left.

But it's nice to see that there are some intelligent people that try before they start making stupid comments about it.

Anyone that bashes Macs at my office I threaten with physical harm for their stupidity after I yell at them about how pompous and ignoratn they are judging a system that they last used on an APPLE II.

[jhu]

I was just leaving a christmas party (I knew NO ONE there, and was getting bored with all of these older rich people around me) and as I was going through the house to get to the coat closet, I ran into a guy tlaking to a girl abotu macs. HE was enthusiatstic and so I dipped in "sorry, I used to work for Apple" and we started talking and I told the girl about the intel move, what to look for when it happens, why macs are better than PC's (cos WINDOWS CAN SUCK IT!).

The guy that was tlaking said he moved from MS to Linux, then to OS X cos it kicks linux's ass (mostly true). We talked for a good 20 minutes before I left.

But it's nice to see that there are some intelligent people that try before they start making stupid comments about it.

Anyone that bashes Macs at my office I threaten with physical harm for their stupidity after I yell at them about how pompous and ignoratn they are judging a system that they last used on an APPLE II.

so you went to a party and talked about macs? you had the perferct opportunity right there to get a number. what's this world coming to?

[Seasought]

My co-workers have initially made some passing comments about Mac in a sort of condescending sort of tone. It's funny to see their faces when I tell them what I'm doing/have done with it. An example would be setting up VNC so I don't even have to directly use the Dell box on the floor under my desk.

We just have to educate others (at the least the one's whose minds haven't completely turned off).

[Avialan]

No MS Office for Mac
or
Windows Word files aren't compatible with Mac

what ever happened to microsoft office 2004 for mac
-or-
apple works being able to read all word files

[Avialan]

I think that switchers appreciate os x a bit more than life-long mac users. (again, this is opinion). We have had to deal with windows for years. You can only appreciate the good when you know the bad.

you know what I have always thought that in my head

I mean look at me I don't even have a mac yet :( and I love them

[Avialan]

die hard linux fan:

"Mac is just linux that has been locked down" - actually somewhat true
"If you have poor people (not so poor) and you gave them computer hardware which operating system would they get a free one or one that costs money" - okay :confused:

windows fan (my father):
"we're a (Microsoft) office based family" - :confused:
"Macs are only good for graphics and aren't good for normal use" - :p
"where just staying with windows, we're not switching" - afraid of change; possible (been working with computers (windows) almost all his life)

friend's family (father):
"you know how much money we spend on spyware and virus protection a month"
"she (wife) once downloaded an attachment because it said it came from the FBI" - :p :D

the friend's family are going to be my first switchers

[d_and_n5000]

My family usually says stuff like this, with commentary my me:
"Macs and their software look good, but try using it. It sucks."
To each his own. I find both quite useful, easy to use, and pretty.
"Macs are good for creative stuff, like music and stuff, but I can't stand using (insert non creative program) on a mac."
Apparantly Word for Mac sucks, according to the guy who said this. I've only ever tried it on OS 8.6, so i can't comment, only that ClarisWorks 4.0 works for my school, and i don't like Word for Mac either. Please no comments on how old this software is, we haven't updated a good hunk of our hardware in 10 years.
"You have to use Apple software, cause it costs too much to buy other stuff"
Most of Apple's stuff is good enough for me, so I can't comment on it.
"Everyone I know only got Tiger cause it's pretty"
Then they know nothing.
"OS X is just Steve Job's pretty version of Unix"
I'm not gonna comment, cause i don't wanna sound stupid and concieted.
"Windows is better, cause there's more software"
Yeah, but a good hunk of that software doesn't work.
"You're only getting an iBook cause it's pretty."
That, and it works, and I know Macs just as well as Windows. O, the joys of going to an all-Mac school. Plus, security is factored is as well. You know there's a problem when i can get a new playlist in iTunes consisting of Joshe's Limewire Hits, when i haven't added any new playlists.
"iPod's suck cause you gotta use iTunes, which also sucks."
My older cousin said this, after i told him my iPod wouldn't work at his house when it wasn't working because the version was like 4.0. He said that they never used it, cause it sucked, so they never updated it. All I wanna know is why his mother got an iPod, when so obviously the software doesn't work.

__________________________

You get the point.

[PCMacUser]

I thought I'd add some comments to this - I hope you don't mind.
My family usually says stuff like this, with commentary my me:
"Macs and their software look good, but try using it. It sucks."
To each his own. I find both quite useful, easy to use, and pretty.
"Macs are good for creative stuff, like music and stuff, but I can't stand using (insert non creative program) on a mac."
I must admit, having used nothing but an iBook running Tiger for the last few months, that Mac software can be quite tedious. It sometimes takes longer to do stuff compared with Windows. A pet annoyance is when I have multiple windows open in a program (eg, Entourage, with email drafts and the main interface open, or Photoshop Elements with multiple images open), I can't easily switch between them. I have to press F9, then try to find the window I want to view (the text is usually too small to read so guesswork is often involved) and then click on it. This isn't an issue with XP, as all the windows that are open are shown on the taskbar at the bottom of the screen and you simply click on the one you want - or you can Alt-TAB (Command-TAB on Tiger only switches between apps, not windows). It's a minor nit-pick really but it does annoy me! Another thing, and I know it's often mentioned, is the inability to maximise windows to full screen. This means manually dragging corners to be able to view a website properly, or an image (in Photoshop). It's just these little time consuming things that make the apps more difficult to use. Some programs such as iTunes run superbly though, due to the fact that it only has one window - therefore no annoying window switching or resizing.
Apparantly Word for Mac sucks, according to the guy who said this. I've only ever tried it on OS 8.6, so i can't comment, only that ClarisWorks 4.0 works for my school, and i don't like Word for Mac either. Please no comments on how old this software is, we haven't updated a good hunk of our hardware in 10 years.
Okay, well Word 2004 for Mac isn't as easy to use as the Windows version, but it's certainly not bad software.
"You have to use Apple software, cause it costs too much to buy other stuff"
Most of Apple's stuff is good enough for me, so I can't comment on it.
That is true that Apple software does cost considerably more than Windows equivalents (take a look at game prices for a really easy example), which I suppose does mean more people have to use Apple's own software. I guess that it costs more to develop Mac software because of the smaller market - and it's also a market lacking in competition so they can charge what they want. But the iLife apps are probably sufficient for most basic users. I can't stand Mail (it's so dumbed down I find it annoying to use!), so I use Entourage instead, which seems to work well enough.
"Windows is better, cause there's more software"
Yeah, but a good hunk of that software doesn't work.
One of the benefits of Windows is certainly the software range, but so much of it is so terrible that you can often find yourself wading through download after download to find something decent. This is where forums and word of mouth is the best way of knowing what is worth installing. And that is quite effective!
"You're only getting an iBook cause it's pretty."
That, and it works, and I know Macs just as well as Windows.
I love my iBook - it's the best value for money for a sub-14" notebook. Period. (Which is why I bought one). It's not fast (my wife said it was struggling to play tetris today!), but it's adequate for typing emails and browsing the Internet. And its wireless reception is OUTSTANDING!
"iPod's suck cause you gotta use iTunes, which also sucks."
My older cousin said this
Do us all a favour and slap your cousin over the head :) Sure, there are better sounding mp3 players with more features, but the iPods look good, sound okay and the software does work (even if it is a bit bloated). My 60gb ipod photo is set to last me a long time.

[greatdevourer]

I can't easily switch between them Command squiggly-thing-next-to-shift :p hope that helps

I guess that it costs more to develop Mac software because of the smaller market It's actually the other way around in most cases. The reason for this is that there's 20 times the market share, but 50 times the developers. You're all shouting to be heard, and thus most developers go bankrupt before their first alpha. Even if you do survive to put a product out, it's most likely not going to sell.
Also, about the thing about everyone using Apple's software, it's the same in the PC market. To the majority of people, they don't even know alternatives to IE, Office and WMP exist, let alone use them.

[PCMacUser]

Command squiggly-thing-next-to-shift :p hope that helps.
Thank you! That's a big help! :) It's still not quite as easy as seeing everything down the bottom, but hey, it's closer.

[jsalzer]

Thank you! That's a big help! :) It's still not quite as easy as seeing everything down the bottom, but hey, it's closer.

How on earth did you make sense of that? Command + Squiggly-thing-next-to-Shift? Isn't that Command + Z? Which does other things. Do you all have different keyboards that have something else next to Shift?

I'm confuzzled now!

:confused:

[mduser63]

How on earth did you make sense of that? Command + Squiggly-thing-next-to-Shift? Isn't that Command + Z? Which does other things. Do you all have different keyboards that have something else next to Shift?

I'm confuzzled now!

:confused:

They're talking about command-` (command-tick) which on an American keyboard is above the tab key and to the left of the 1 key. Shift-` is a tilde (~) which is the squiggly thing they're talking about. The shortcut is actually cmd-` though, not cmd-~ (which would be cmd-shift-`). I think on some European keyboards, ` is near the shift key.

[brepublican]

Command squiggly-thing-next-to-shift :p hope that helps
Tilda. Its actually called tilda (~).

[sunfast]

This says quite a lot - a review of the 17" iMac G5 posted on amazon.co.uk

"I recently bought one of these macs, seeing as i use a G5 at work and have a PC at home. Unfortunatly, the macintosh systems are very poor.

The GUI may look pretty, but it hides a sloppy slow boring machine. Boring because its got limits. A PC has no limitations as to what software you can download, gaming etc. The mac has nothing, it was nothing but a overpriced fancy peice. For less than half the price i could have got a better looking PC and had double the fun. In fact, i returned my apple mac and did get a PC.

Heres a lesson, if you want to be a poser, get a mac, if you want to actually use a machine and have fun with it, get a PC.

The Imac G5 was so slow and boring, i would not reccomend it."

Sadly - it's the only review so non mac users might think it's true. Any iMac G5 owners out there fancy posting a sensible one?

[mvc]

This says quite a lot - a review of the 17" iMac G5 posted on amazon.co.uk

"I recently bought one of these macs, seeing as i use a G5 at work and have a PC at home. Unfortunatly, the macintosh systems are very poor.

The GUI may look pretty, but it hides a sloppy slow boring machine. Boring because its got limits. A PC has no limitations as to what software you can download, gaming etc. The mac has nothing, it was nothing but a overpriced fancy peice. For less than half the price i could have got a better looking PC and had double the fun. In fact, i returned my apple mac and did get a PC.

Heres a lesson, if you want to be a poser, get a mac, if you want to actually use a machine and have fun with it, get a PC.

The Imac G5 was so slow and boring, i would not reccomend it."

Sadly - it's the only review so non mac users might think it's true. Any iMac G5 owners out there fancy posting a sensible one?

People should not be allowed to write reviews of anything without providing their street addresses ...
;)

[Blue Velvet]

This says quite a lot - a review of the 17" iMac G5 posted on amazon.co.uk

"I recently bought one of these macs, seeing as i use a G5 at work and have a PC at home. Unfortunatly, the macintosh systems are very poor.

The GUI may look pretty, but it hides a sloppy slow boring machine. Boring because its got limits. A PC has no limitations as to what software you can download, gaming etc. The mac has nothing, it was nothing but a overpriced fancy peice. For less than half the price i could have got a better looking PC and had double the fun. In fact, i returned my apple mac and did get a PC.

Heres a lesson, if you want to be a poser, get a mac, if you want to actually use a machine and have fun with it, get a PC.

The Imac G5 was so slow and boring, i would not reccomend it."

Sadly - it's the only review so non mac users might think it's true. Any iMac G5 owners out there fancy posting a sensible one?



The whole review sounds like a complete bald-faced lie to me — written by a kid. I'm sure there will be other more realistic reviews up there soon enough.

[BakedBeans]

The whole review sounds like a complete bald-faced lie to me — written by a kid. I'm sure there will be other more realistic reviews up there soon enough.
Almost certainly a Windows Zealot

Although i agree with the 'limitations' part. Mac limits the amount of viruses and crases you have - the windows platform has none of those limitations

[cwedl]

"Macs are too slow" - I'm sure they are now they have one of the fastest processors in the market in them!

[Cooknn]

"No Bios" :rolleyes:

[Clix Pix]

I have a co-worker who claims that Windows XP is a more stable OS.

Oy, vey! REALLY?!!!! I hope you and the other Mac folks over there have given this person a demonstration or two in what the reality is.... You've got a Mac there in the store; have someone bring in a Windows PC laptop or something and run comparative tests.... you know, do some multitasking with both machines, and then let that person see who comes out smelling like a rose! LOL!!!

[solvs]

I'm sure there will be other more realistic reviews up there soon enough.
I doubt it. That model has kinda been discontinued anyway. Let's see what happens with the Intel Mac that's replacing it.

[jsalzer]

Oy, vey! REALLY?!!!! I hope you and the other Mac folks over there have given this person a demonstration or two in what the reality is....

Reality is for computers just as it is for cars. We each form broad opinions based on the very limited sample set we have to work with. I worship at the altar of Steve (and to a lesser extent Clarus the Dogcow), and I'll never own anything but a Mac, but...

If my opinion was unbiased and based solely on the three computers at my work station at work (two Wintels and one iMacG5), I'd be basing my conclusions on two XP machines that rarely ever crash and a Mac that crashed on a daily basis. Now, owning my own Mac at home for many many years, I know that it's a RevA iMacG5 problem and not a "Mac" problem (and hopefully the new logic board that the fine folks at CompUSA just gave me will help), but if I didn't have my reliable Pismo at home, I would probably conclude that XP is more stable than OSX.

Just like anyone who has had trouble with one Ford and a good run with one Chevy will say Chevy's are better, and someone who has had trouble with one Chevy and a good run with one Ford will say Fords are better.

[jacobj]

• MAC'S have no software.

• MAC'S are only good for working with graphics.



These are by far the most common arguments I hear.

Reponse: Windows users have considerably more software available to them. The market is flooded with the stuff and as we all know competition is a good thing. But the competition in the Windows world stick to the platforms overall ethos: pile 'em high, sell 'em cheap.

That is not to say that there aren't some fantastic pieces of software out there for Windows, but to get to them you have to wade through so much *****.

Macs come with enough software to make me happy, but there is some incredibly well built, functionality rich and simple to use software out there that is so easy to find.

Then my argument is response starts to overlap with the second criticism. What are the three main things that I do with my mac besides surfing the net?


I manage and edit my photos
I edit and burn my own movies
I develop my own websites


All of those can be seen as graphically related if you want them to be. But we all know that movies and websites are much more than a series of pictures. If the Windows argument was re-phrased as 'Macs are only good for creativity' then I would fail to find a decent reponse as apart from games, work, watching media and creating the above I can think of few uses for a computer. Now the mac excels at the creative and media watching bit.. I've never had the chance to use a mac at work and so I can't say what they would be like for the kind of work I do and my new MBP will play games to a level that I am more than happy with, but it could be better.

So in conclusion I would challenge the argument and ask the proponent for some clarity. I think that most of them do not realise that they are close to the truth and that the truth is about creativity..If they care nothing for creativity then they will more than likely care nothing for macs as it is an appreciation of the creative process that draws us to them and makes them such a pleasure to use.

[jhu]

Reality is for computers just as it is for cars. We each form broad opinions based on the very limited sample set we have to work with. I worship at the altar of Steve (and to a lesser extent Clarus the Dogcow), and I'll never own anything but a Mac, but...

If my opinion was unbiased and based solely on the three computers at my work station at work (two Wintels and one iMacG5), I'd be basing my conclusions on two XP machines that rarely ever crash and a Mac that crashed on a daily basis. Now, owning my own Mac at home for many many years, I know that it's a RevA iMacG5 problem and not a "Mac" problem (and hopefully the new logic board that the fine folks at CompUSA just gave me will help), but if I didn't have my reliable Pismo at home, I would probably conclude that XP is more stable than OSX.

Just like anyone who has had trouble with one Ford and a good run with one Chevy will say Chevy's are better, and someone who has had trouble with one Chevy and a good run with one Ford will say Fords are better.

indeed, people who think humans are usually logical are wrong.

[sunfast]

http://www.mac-sucks.com/ also contains some very enlightened and not at all biased opinions *cough*

[jhu]

i can't run oracle on my mac. i can't run erp software on my mac.

[Seasought]

http://www.mac-sucks.com/ also contains some very enlightened and not at all biased opinions *cough*

Wow. I just read through the site. What a waste. It looks like it isn't really updated regularly given the nature of some of the arguments and the products the author of the site uses to attack.

[greatdevourer]

http://www.mac-sucks.com/ also contains some very enlightened and not at all biased opinions *cough* Hilarious

they've invented the laptop, eureka! The funniest part about this sarcasm of his is that it's actually correct - the PB100 was the first proper laptop (instead of a luggable)

On their local sites they seem to prefer Solaris and Windows 2000 (china ran it until a month ago) Yeah... China and the aforementioned India. I wouldn't be suprised if these are rented servers. And the comment about only using X on the main site because they'd look bad is bs - the main site get's a shedload more hits

Userfriendly? -I think not! Well, duh! The UNIX CLI was never meant to be userfriendly. If you're going to tout it as horrible to work with, at least move away from Terminal :rolleyes:

http://www.mac-sucks.com/facts-design1.jpg
Try doing this with a mac. Many people have done this with Macs of various sorts

Wow, that was a waste of time :D

[sunfast]

Wow. I just read through the site. What a waste. It looks like it isn't really updated regularly given the nature of some of the arguments and the products the author of the site uses to attack.

Still, depressing that somebody felt sufficiently motivated (and had the time) to do it.

[dpaanlka]

One of the argumenst that I always hated was the one-button mouse.

See, the thing is, Windows would be entirely impossible to use with a one button mouse. Doing so is unimaginable (spelling?). People always assumed the same must be true for Macs, even though Macs were always designed from the ground up for one mouse button operation.

I still like one mouse button. I only bought a MightyMouse for the horizontal/vertial scroll ball. I have it set as a one button mouse.

Besides two button mice were always available anyway.

I also can't stand that a lot of PC people think the iMac is the only Mac. When the MacBook Pro came out, somebody actually said to me "Apple came out with a laptop!" ????

I brought my 1400c to an office once several years ago and someone there said "theres no such thing as an Apple laptop" even though clearly I had it in my hands. I think he thought I modified it or something.