F1 bosses ready to end tyre war

iGav · Feb 2, 2005

Well if you substitute 'bosses' for FIA and Ferrari (although some would argue they're one and the same

) then I suppose it's in the same ball park! heheh

I honestly like what I'm hearing so far, and they atleast makes some degree of sense to me, especially regarding the suggestion for testing limitations.

The issue was discussed at length at the meeting, where the world champions said that a limit based on mileage rather than days would be more effective.

Which is an infinitely better cost saving solution than the other proposal put forward by the '9 other' teams.

But these sound like they're heading in the right directions...

to commission a study into whether a dramatic reduction in aerodynamic downforce and a return to wide, tread-free "slick" tyres would improve the racing.

to set up a working group to look into the use of standard electronic control systems.

to reduce Grand Prix weekends from three days to two.

The first one is obvious

The second would certainly help reduce costs and even out the playing field alittle.

The last is a good suggestion because currently Fridays are wasted days, I'd much rather see them limit the testing by miles, and throw in a 20 race calender.

As for the control tyre, the only way I can see it being fair is if another tyre company is used... otherwise

Rinky dinky Link

Thoughts?

mpw · Feb 2, 2005

I've said it before but I think they should be allowed to use any currently available tyre from any manufacturer so long as the model is available as original equipment on a fully available production car costing less than ~$100,000 or available retail again with a maximum price.

iGav · Feb 2, 2005

mpw said:
I've said it before but I think they should be allowed to use any currently available tyre from any manufacturer so long as the model is available as original equipment on a fully available production car costing less than ~$100,000 or available retail again with a maximum price.

But then you'd end up with a series where GP2 would be significantly faster, as would F3000, which would then negate F1's claim as the pinnacle of motorsport, then all the drivers would jump ship to GP2.

Lord Blackadder · Feb 2, 2005

No, F1 must stay the fastest, and thus must have it's own bespoke tire.

This really seems the best way to slow things down and reduce costs at the same time - especially if they do go with a spec tire that is a slick. Now they just need to get the other nine teams involved...

Counterfit · Feb 2, 2005

mpw said:
I've said it before but I think they should be allowed to use any currently available tyre from any manufacturer so long as the model is available as original equipment on a fully available production car costing less than ~$100,000 or available retail again with a maximum price.

That is probably the stupidest idea I've heard in regards to F1. That rule belongs in SCCA (which has some damn fine series') Club leagues, not F1 (or any other full time professional racing series).

anonymous161 · Feb 3, 2005

I know I am a Ferrari fan, so a little natural bias exists I'm sure, but if the top team (that owns two test tracks) can present a better idea for testing why can't the other teams go with that. Are they mad that Ferrari came up with a better idea than they did? The whole 9 team agreement on testing seems more like an attempt to back Ferrari in a corner and force them to either be noncompetitive or to leave the sport completely. But who knows, maybe Ferrari only came up with this idea because they are feeling the well dry up a little with FIAT struggling to stay afloat. 400 million is 400 million no matter which pot it comes from and I doubt the Ferrari road cars make that much profit on their own. I mean they sell 2800 cars a year at the most and at an average selling price of around 250k that comes to 700 million and its not like the cars are cheap to build. Ferrari have said they are interested saving money, they are just more interested in winning races.
On a side note, I think long life tires are a mistake. I mean a puncture will end your race and with tires going the entire race punctures are bound to increase. I would rather see cars race entire races on one tank of fuel as speed would increase as the race progressed and all the cars got really light. That would bring fuel economy into play and make passing more necessary. I also think its something the fans could follow along with better, as much fun as trying to guess fuel strategies are, does anybody really pay attention to how many times Jordan or Minardi stop in a race? I think tires (control slicks) should be changed, but limit the pit crew size like they do in Nascar and some other racing. I think no fuel crew (so no fire hazards), one guy bolting/unbolting tires, two guys carrying tires, and one guy holding the lolli pop. That would make stops much slower and much more of a strategic decision. I can only imagine the fun as the cars get lighter, their tires lose grip, and everyone has to pass.

mpw · Feb 3, 2005

Counterfit said:
That is probably the stupidest idea I've heard in regards to F1. That rule belongs in SCCA (which has some damn fine series') Club leagues, not F1 (or any other full time professional racing series).

Everyone complains the trouble with F1 is that the races are becoming boring, the top teams with the most money dominate too much and Berni dominates way too much, which he does for money.

Make rules that dramatically drop the costs involved so more teams can race takes care of the moneyed teams domination (I'm not just talking tires here). Introduce less specialist equipment and bring in more variance and the racing becomes less predictable. Put the sport back in to the business and everyone (but Berni) is going to be happy.

OK so F1 need to be the pinnacle so why not change to lower formulas so each becomes even more accessible if that means more can join in it's a good thing isn't it?

Also the fact that the product you and I will be able to buy is going to benefit directly from the R&D paid for by the racing teams not just at the periphery as now.

I want to see racing and do enjoy seeing the 'lesser' formulas for that reason. It's just a shame that the best drivers (or at least the ones who have a talent and the financial clout to break in to F1) dont get a chance to show their potential.

I used to love F1 but it just doesnt seem relevant anymore. Technically brilliant, yes. Fun, no.

iGav · Feb 3, 2005

A breakdown of what FIA and Ferrari discussed at the 28th January can be found here.

The more I read the more I think the FIA and Ferrari are atleast moving in the right directions... interesting a lot of what anonymous161 wanted has been suggested by either the FIA or Ferrari in particular the desire to have onboard starter motors and to stop the use of tyre warmers... you don't work for the FIA do you anonymous161??

But the key points for me are...

Very substantial reduction in downforce (e.g. down to 10% of current levels).

Driver must be able to start the car unaided with on-board system.

Single tyre supplier

Slick tyres with only three compounds, fixed for the entire season

Prohibition of tyre blankets and all tyre warming devices

Freedom to sell components (including the entire chassis) and transfer intellectual property rights.
(Imagine a Minardi based on the previous years Ferrari or McLaren)

Actually I could keep going... they almost all make sense IMHO...

Thoughts??

iGav · Feb 3, 2005

mpw said:
Everyone complains the trouble with F1 is that the races are becoming boring, the top teams with the most money dominate too much and Berni dominates way too much, which he does for money.

In a way though (atleast in the modern era) that has always been the way, 2004 was, if you took Ferrari out of the equation the most competitive season I can remember. We had McLaren, Williams, BAR Honda and Renault all very close together taking points off each other, and with the exception of BAR Honda a race win each.

I can't remember a season when F1 had so many competitive teams, if people thought 2004 was boring, obviously they weren't watching F1 in 1987, 1988, 1992 and 1993 all stood out for being truly terrible years in terms of competition.

I know what would help though, is bringing back the F1 Digital channel, with multi-screen and multi-camera options, because several races last year (for example Suzuka) we missed out on positional fights, overtaking and possible breach of the team orders rule because of appalling directors missing out on all the action.

Interestingly a lack of overtaking doesn't actually seem to be an issue, I'm sure that I read that on average they were between 30-40 overtaking moves (for position, on track) a race, it's just that the director misses a significant number of them.

Lord Blackadder · Feb 3, 2005

iGAV said:
Interestingly a lack of overtaking doesn't actually seem to be an issue, I'm sure that I read that on average they were between 30-40 overtaking moves (for position, on track) a race, it's just that the director misses a significant number of them.

I remember a number of races last year where the commentators spoke of a "tremendous battle" for points position (or even farther back) that I couldn't see because the cameras spent so much time pointed at the podium position cars that were spread out so far there was no hope of a pass.

I'm not a Ferrari fan but I have to say the results of their meeting with the FIA look pretty good concept-wise; I hope the the other teams see the logic here, forget the politics and get aboard.

anonymous161 · Feb 3, 2005

Yes, I work for the Oklahoma Division of the FIA

Watching Montoya run across the pit lane because he couldn't start his car at the US GP made the need for onboard starters pretty obvious to me. I like where the FIA/Ferrari proposals are headed, despite the fact that they ripped off my ideas

Truly, the camera work for the TV broadcasts is atrocious. I have seen much better coverage of races here in the US with the Champ cars and Indy (even though ovals are a little easier to cover). I get frustrated when I watch live timing and see the cars change position but I can get nothing on the TV, like Button's drive from 12th (I think) this season. He obviously had to pass a lot of people, but apparently he did that by manipulating the space/time continuum because no one saw it.
I must admit I am a little envious of the racing scene in Europe. With F1, GP2, F3000, sports cars, etc. There is a lot of racing to follow. Over here we have NASCAR (seriously?), Indy, Champ, and some sports car stuff, but all of it is far away from where I live. The only thing close is the Texas Motor Speedway (3 hours away in Dallas) and while I have seen an IRL race there, ovals are not really that exciting. Even the US GP at Indy is a 2 day drive, so I haven't made it out there yet as it would basically require a week to see it.

But alas, I will just keep getting up at 6 am on Sundays to watch F1. At least my wife watches it with me.

Freedom to sell components (including the entire chassis) and transfer intellectual property rights.
(Imagine a Minardi based on the previous years Ferrari or McLaren)

The only problem I see with this is the potential for F1 to turn into a series like IRL where there are two chassis makers and three engine suppliers. While this lowers cost, it shifts the emphasis on the driver to the point where no one even knows what teams race and there is no such thing as a constructor's trophy, which is really the essence of F1 to me.

Lord Blackadder · Feb 3, 2005

Ah, an insider.

anonymous161 said:
Freedom to sell components (including the entire chassis) and transfer intellectual property rights.
(Imagine a Minardi based on the previous years Ferrari or McLaren)

The only problem I see with this is the potential for F1 to turn into a series like IRL where there are two chassis makers and three engine suppliers. While this lowers cost, it shifts the emphasis on the driver to the point where no one even knows what teams race and there is no such thing as a constructor's trophy, which is really the essence of F1 to me.

I see what you mean there - part of what's great about F1 is the constructor's trophy.

I also bemoan the state of US motorsport; The Speed championships are occasionally interesting, ALMS is nice and of course there is the SCCA rally, but TV coverage is crappy and at weird hours. Some times they broadcast cool stuff (Australian Supercar), but that's the exceptin, not the rule. The other day I turned on the Speed channel and they were broadcasting riding lawnmower racing (?!). I laughed, but seriously! I'd like to see DTM and F3000 and such broadcast regularly. And less NASCAR (which takes up around 40% of the Speed channel's programming).

anonymous161 · Feb 3, 2005

I haven't seen the lawnmower racing, but I have seen the endless NASCAR programming, NOPI tuner vision (blah), and drag racing of various flavors. OH and don't forget the priceless TV that is Barrett Jackson car auctions where people with more money than brains pay $100,000 for '57 chevys and dodge challengers.

Lord Blackadder · Feb 3, 2005

anonymous161 said:
I haven't seen the lawnmower racing, but I have seen the endless NASCAR programming, NOPI tuner vision (blah), and drag racing of various flavors. OH and don't forget the priceless TV that is Barrett Jackson car auctions where people with more money than brains pay $100,000 for '57 chevys and dodge challengers.

Belive me, they were lawnmowers.

I hate that NOPI show too. It's either rice culture or NASCAR culture (or lack therof?) with the Speed Channel.

They do have (or had) Motorsport Mondial, which was a nice if far too brief news summary; but last I checked it was being broadcast at insomniac hours so I almost never watched it.

This is one of the big reasons I'd like to see F1 get big in the 'states - it would spark interest in some of the other great series they have in Europe, stuff that I'd actually like to watch. Right now the only foreign series that might catch on in the 'States is JGTC (not that THAT is a bad thing...)

Whoa, just looked at the Speed Channel's website and noticed that they do broadcast DTM - at 1pm on Wednesdays. That is REALLY convenient for those of us who work for a living.

MOFS · Feb 3, 2005

anonymous161 said:
Yes, I work for the Oklahoma Division of the FIA
Watching Montoya run across the pit lane because he couldn't start his car at the US GP made the need for onboard starters pretty obvious to me. I like where the FIA/Ferrari proposals are headed, despite the fact that they ripped off my ideas
Truly, the camera work for the TV broadcasts is atrocious. I have seen much better coverage of races here in the US with the Champ cars and Indy (even though ovals are a little easier to cover). I get frustrated when I watch live timing and see the cars change position but I can get nothing on the TV, like Button's drive from 12th (I think) this season. He obviously had to pass a lot of people, but apparently he did that by manipulating the space/time continuum because no one saw it.
I must admit I am a little envious of the racing scene in Europe. With F1, GP2, F3000, sports cars, etc. There is a lot of racing to follow. Over here we have NASCAR (seriously?), Indy, Champ, and some sports car stuff, but all of it is far away from where I live. The only thing close is the Texas Motor Speedway (3 hours away in Dallas) and while I have seen an IRL race there, ovals are not really that exciting. Even the US GP at Indy is a 2 day drive, so I haven't made it out there yet as it would basically require a week to see it.

But alas, I will just keep getting up at 6 am on Sundays to watch F1. At least my wife watches it with me.

Freedom to sell components (including the entire chassis) and transfer intellectual property rights.
(Imagine a Minardi based on the previous years Ferrari or McLaren)

The only problem I see with this is the potential for F1 to turn into a series like IRL where there are two chassis makers and three engine suppliers. While this lowers cost, it shifts the emphasis on the driver to the point where no one even knows what teams race and there is no such thing as a constructor's trophy, which is really the essence of F1 to me.

Ron Dennis suggested that the bigger teams should sell entire cars to new teams entering F1 for the first few years (2 or 3) to allow them to get used to the logistics of running a team. This was in response to rumours of Jordan buying old Mclaren chassis and rebranding them as Smart Jordans! For me, this would be great - I'd hate the FIA to introduce anything more than this suggestion or engine sales. I used to love watching the BTCC before most of the cars became rebadged Vauxhall Vectras.

iGav · Feb 5, 2005

anonymous161 said:
Watching Montoya run across the pit lane because he couldn't start his car at the US GP

That was the funniest thing all season, DC wasn't half taking the pi$$ out of him on ITV's (the channel which broadcasts F1 in the UK) Season Review at Christmas, heheh

anonymous161 said:
I get frustrated when I watch live timing and see the cars change position but I can get nothing on the TV, like Button's drive from 12th (I think) this season. He obviously had to pass a lot of people, but apparently he did that by manipulating the space/time continuum because no one saw it.

It was the same with Schumacher at Monza after he spun at the 2nd chicance on the 1st lap and ended up last. Yet he fought back through the field to only just finish 2nd behind Rubens, he spent the race doing nothing but overtake cars, yet he was next to ignored by the director until the last quarter of the race when everyone realised he was actually in with a shot of winning the race, that's the kind of stuff we want to see... drive of the season was that.

I wouldn't mind if it was just the odd race, but off the top of my head Suzuka and the Chinese GP also suffered from having a director who just kept on missing anything of interest, it's not that F1 doesn't have good, close racing it does... we just don't get to see all of it.

anonymous161 said:
I must admit I am a little envious of the racing scene in Europe. With F1, GP2, F3000, sports cars, etc. There is a lot of racing to follow. Over here we have NASCAR (seriously?), Indy, Champ, and some sports car stuff, but all of it is far away from where I live.

We are spoilt for choice here in europe when it comes to motorsport, even at club level things are VERY competitive, we've got everything from Rallycross (suped up ex-Group B Rally cars), Ice Racing (totally mad, custom built rally cars with works bodies and 4WD/4WS) Days Of Thunder (our NASCAR), Truck racing (think semi's), Classic/Nostalgia Racing with the old GP cars from the 30's-70's, which even though some of the cars are near priceless, they still cane them!

then there's all the other single seat catergories Formula Ford, Formula Renault etc, Sportscars, GT Championship, then rallying such as the WRC and national Championships and then the touring car series like the BTCC and DTM.

CART and IRL receive almost zero coverage here, unless you have SKY Digital in which case they do carry some races live, it's not always been that way though, I remember I used to see quite a bit of Indy Car when people like Rick Mears were pounding the tarmac, the same with the Indy 500... I was enthralled when Arie Luyendyk won that for the first time back in... 1990?? but since it split, the coverage became non existent and I just lost interest in it.

I've watched the odd race since but the ease of overtaking on ovals kind of spoils it for me, and the street races (proper street races) suffer from a real lack of overtaking, I know there's an art to drafting but even having 10 changes in a lap pales in comparison to watching likes of Schumi, Kimi, Montoya etc pull of spectacular moves which have been building for a couple of laps previous.

Also what's with the pace car/safety car periods in NASCAR all of the time...

anonymous161 said:
The only problem I see with this is the potential for F1 to turn into a series like IRL where there are two chassis makers and three engine suppliers. While this lowers cost, it shifts the emphasis on the driver to the point where no one even knows what teams race and there is no such thing as a constructor's trophy, which is really the essence of F1 to me.

I don't think they should be given a built rolling chassis every season, just access to the original designs (excluding any season developments) as a one off. The team should still have to build it themselves, but also develop it themselves. Such an option would also be good to try and entice more teams to enter, FIA's $48 million or so entrance bond doesn't help either of course, but imagine having 26 car grids again.

Lord Blackadder said:
This is one of the big reasons I'd like to see F1 get big in the 'states -

What F1 needs then is more mullets to attract all those rednecks! Actually Button is half way there with his do, so you never know. heheh

MOFS said:
I used to love watching the BTCC before most of the cars became rebadged Vauxhall Vectras.

I know what you mean, I used to love BTCC back in the late '80's early '90's... but since they started penalising successful teams and drivers with ballast... it was no longer a 'race' series IMHO, entertaining yes, with all the banging into each other, but success ballast just isn't the way racing should be at all... it's too artificial.

Counterfit · Feb 6, 2005

iGAV said:
We are spoilt for choice here in europe when it comes to motorsport, even at club level things are VERY competitive, we've got everything from Rallycross (suped up ex-Group B Rally cars), Ice Racing (totally mad, custom built rally cars with works bodies and 4WD/4WS)

I've seen some ice racing on SPEED. Crazy ****. I think Alesi (Prost maybe? I know it was a French former F1 driver) was in that race too

Days Of Thunder (our NASCAR)

I think that's a movie over here

Truck racing (think semi's)

seen that too. More crazy ****. And it's headed our way!

Classic/Nostalgia Racing with the old GP cars from the 30's-70's, which even though some of the cars are near priceless, they still cane them!

We have the Monterey Historic Races over here at Leguna Seca. If there's more than one, they make a category and you race 'em

I think I saw someone in a Stanley Steamer one time

then there's all the other single seat catergories Formula Ford, Formula Renault etc,

Barber Dodge series, Star Mazda series (using the RX-8 engine

) and probably a few others

Sportscars, GT Championship

ALMS, SPEED GT, the upper levels of SCCA club racing (I don't really follow Trans-Am, it's become NASCAR on street circuits

)

then rallying such as the WRC and national Championships

SCCA recently dumped ProRally because of insurance costs ($2m per race!

), but it was picked up by someone else. Damn fine series, all over the country

and then the touring car series like the BTCC and DTM.

Okay, so SPEED Touring Car doesn't quite compare, but those damn Caddy CTS-V's owned that series this year (against a couple Audi's

)

Counterfit · Feb 6, 2005

I had to split this into two posts!!

my post, part 2

CART and IRL receive almost zero coverage here, unless you have SKY Digital in which case they do carry some races live, it's not always been that way though, I remember I used to see quite a bit of Indy Car when people like Rick Mears were pounding the tarmac, the same with the Indy 500... I was enthralled when Arie Luyendyk won that for the first time back in... 1990?? but since it split, the coverage became non existent and I just lost interest in it.

Well, CART doesn't even exist anymore, in name anyway. I think it's FedEx ChampCar or something... They've been losing out since the split. I guess whoever said it first was right in that the series with the Indy 500 would win out in the end (Sort of like trying to have F1 without Ferrari). Heck, even Ganassi has switched to IRL now. JPM won his CART championship with them, and then the 500.

I've watched the odd race since but the ease of overtaking on ovals kind of spoils it for me, and the street races (proper street races) suffer from a real lack of overtaking, I know there's an art to drafting but even having 10 changes in a lap pales in comparison to watching likes of Schumi, Kimi, Montoya etc pull of spectacular moves which have been building for a couple of laps previous.

damn straight!

Also what's with the pace car/safety car periods in NASCAR all of the time...

I've heard that they pull the yellow out a lot to keep the field tight (lame!

). And why they do it after a clean spin, I don't know. No harm no foul right?

What F1 needs then is more mullets to attract all those rednecks! Actually Button is half way there with his do, so you never know. heheh

trust me, you don't want that.

HeWhoSpitsFire · Feb 7, 2005

Those darn state run tv feeds

Just as a note, the Suzuka and Chinese GP coverage wasn't controlled by the FIA or SPEED

Those were both done by the state run tv. Worst of which was the chinese, but Suzuka suffered just the same.

I personally haven't had SPEED for a while, and boy am I jonesin!!!

And oh what I would pay to watch Jean Alesi in an AMG at the Nurburghring! DTM is some great racing!

iGav · Feb 7, 2005

Counterfit said:
I've seen some ice racing on SPEED. Crazy ****. I think Alesi (Prost maybe? I know it was a French former F1 driver) was in that race too

Prost used to race it...

the cars are great, look like modded conventional hatches, are mechanically quite simple, have huge BHP, 4WD/4WS and race on sheet ice, with snow banking... it's almost the most insane motorsport in the world, except for those crazy Icelandics who have those monster BHP 4WD buggies and race 'em up sheer cliff faces!

Counterfit said:
I think that's a movie over here

Sadly I think that's where they took their inspiration from

it's exactly like NASCAR but slightly slower... and because we're not exactly home to lots of ovals they stay at Rockingham.

Counterfit said:
We have the Monterey Historic Races over here at Leguna Seca.

Monterey Historic Races... I've heard about that, it's quite famous isn't it

It's a similar thing here, but over many different circuits like the classic Goodward etc they even have full seasons.

Counterfit said:
SCCA recently dumped ProRally because of insurance costs ($2m per race!), but it was picked up by someone else. Damn fine series, all over the country

Do you guys get WRC over there??

We have an historic Rally series in the UK that use classics like the old Escort RS 2000 and Mini Coopers, they're pretty yampy as well.

Counterfit said:
Okay, so SPEED Touring Car doesn't quite compare, but those damn Caddy CTS-V's owned that series this year (against a couple Audi's)

It's the same with our BTCC series, it doesn't get near the DTM (or the Italian one actually). Yet funnily back in the '80's and early '90's BTCC was the best Touring Car championship in the world... it all started going wrong once they banned Group A Sierra Cosworth RS500's... the early '90's were cool once they changed to more conventional, almost Group N cars to reduce costs, then spoilers started being added, as did body bits, then the cars began to less resemble road cars and more like proper race cars, but they never went the whole hog like DTM... so whilst entertaining because of all the crashes, it ended up becomming a crappy, artificial race series.

Audi's have never been the same since their Quattro system was banned from touring races... they were seriously fast cars, especially in the wet!

Counterfit said:
Well, CART doesn't even exist anymore, in name anyway. I think it's FedEx ChampCar or something... They've been losing out since the split. I guess whoever said it first was right in that the series with the Indy 500 would win out in the end (Sort of like trying to have F1 without Ferrari). Heck, even Ganassi has switched to IRL now. JPM won his CART championship with them, and then the 500.

ChampCar that's it... all those name changes and splits is confusing.

I remember reading that when Penske swapped from CART to IRL it pretty much sealed the fate of CART.

Counterfit said:
I've heard that they pull the yellow out a lot to keep the field tight (lame! ). And why they do it after a clean spin, I don't know. No harm no foul right?

That's what I thought when I've been watching the odd race, someone spins, and out comes the Pace Car, or if someone is clearly leading than some back marker will spin, the Pace Car comes out and bunches them back up again... don't like that.

They use the safety car too much in F1 as well.

HeWhoSpitsFire said:
Just as a note, the Suzuka and Chinese GP coverage wasn't controlled by the FIA or SPEED

Those were both done by the state run tv. Worst of which was the chinese, but Suzuka suffered just the same.

Suzuka wasn't, but China was, China used a FOCA director for their first race, which is inexcusable.

As far as I'm aware, FOCA TV provide the main coverage, but the host broadcaster directs that footage, then any broadcaster such as ITV, or SPEED then have their own camera's and coverage for interviews, pit stuff etc. I could be wrong on that though.

HeWhoSpitsFire said:
And oh what I would pay to watch Jean Alesi in an AMG at the Nurburghring! DTM is some great racing!

They've got Mika as well this season.

That will up the stakes, a 2x F1 WDC, they'll be some DTM drivers really wanting to try and teach him a lesson.

Sadly I think once The Hakk gets fully up to speed they'll be on the receiving end of a good thrashing week in week out!!

HeWhoSpitsFire · Feb 7, 2005

WRC is one of the things I miss the most about not having SPEED anymore. Just love the little "sounds of speed" sessions. I'd crank up the volume on the 5.1 listening to Solberg "click" the gears making that subie just whine. Loved it!

Can't say the same for my ex-roommates. Got a lot of "What the hell is that annoying sound!?!"

The closest I've been able to get to seeing DTM is playing the league in TOCA 2 on the XBOX. Not the same, but it keeps the cravings at bay. Mika and Jean will smoke 'em all.

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