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Mr. Incredible
Jan 24, 2011, 01:43 AM
Is there a 3rd Generation being released this year? This is just from what I've heard somewhere.

That the 3rd Gen Apple TV will be able to support 1080p playback.

It pisses me off how iTunes has their HD movies which is just 720p, and in no time, they're going to have 1080p movies.

I try to be a smart consumer, which is why I'm still holding out on the Apple TV.



Omne666
Jan 24, 2011, 02:53 AM
It was 3-4 years between ATV1 and ATV2...I think ATV2 has a lot more development software wise to happen before ATV3 rears its head.

The reason Apples movie standard is 720p is more based around internet speeds then trying to delay support for 1080. I could try and calculate dload times for various length movies at differing resolutions, but you can see the issue. The internet just isn't up to it yet.

zedsdead
Jan 24, 2011, 04:21 AM
Engadget is reporting that the "A5" processor will support 1080p, and that it will be coming to the Apple TV. This will likely happen at the iPod event in September if it is true.

Omne666
Jan 24, 2011, 05:05 AM
No doubt as the Apple TV moves out from its 'hobbyist' label that Steve has used on it for years, the product cycle will speed up, but to go from 3-4years to yearly I just cant see....yet. Maybe 2 years?? That would make it an announced ATV3 toward the end of this year for an actual release next year.

Then again....do I work for Apple? So I suppose anything is possible.

Rootman
Jan 24, 2011, 06:46 AM
They should update it to bring FaceTime into the TV room.

iKennett
Jan 24, 2011, 07:23 AM
I don't think Apple know how well Apple TV will perform into the future if they maintain the off balance between user freedom and lock down like they do now.

I would expect Apple to release the App store for Apple TV first and then finalise the design for Apple Tv 3.

I'll be even more surprised if Apple don't introduce some regional extras like BBC iPlayer in the UK. TV is a very regional thing and a global product doesn't sit well everywhere!

cheeseblock
Jan 24, 2011, 07:29 AM
They should update it to bring FaceTime into the TV room.

that's a great idea, especially when the technology is only on wifi anyway, why not be able to facetime while watching TV instead of only while on your iphone?

but i still think that the current $99 :apple:TV is a great deal, and does a lot for the money (especially when compared to the first gen)

mchalebk
Jan 24, 2011, 09:05 AM
Now that the AppleTV is an iOS device, I would expect it to get regular updates. Seems like these tend to happen once a year, so I would expect an update later this year. The September iPod event (as already mentioned) seems to make sense.

MrMister111
Jan 24, 2011, 11:16 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)


but i still think that the current $99 :apple:TV is a great deal, and does a lot for the money (especially when compared to the first gen)

What does it do over Gen1? Allows netflix - not here in UK, only allows streaming - now have to have iTunes running to use it. Can't think of anything else it does over Gen1.

I have a Gen1 and like the fact I can sync, it's used for the kids & wife, and having synced content allows them to watch no problems when I'm not in (they are all non techy!!)

mchalebk
Jan 24, 2011, 12:09 PM
"does a lot for the money (especially when compared to the first gen)"

I think he was referring more to the fact that it's significantly cheaper than the 1st gen ATV, not that it does more.

kas23
Jan 24, 2011, 12:13 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)



What does it do over Gen1? Allows netflix - not here in UK, only allows streaming - now have to have iTunes running to use it. Can't think of anything else it does over Gen1.

I have a Gen1 and like the fact I can sync, it's used for the kids & wife, and having synced content allows them to watch no problems when I'm not in (they are all non techy!!)

For anyone who has purchased a standard HDTV over the last 12 months, the ATV2 really doesn't do anything new besides offer people iTunes content right to their HDTV. The vast majority of HDTVs being sold now already have Netflix, Youtube, Hulu Plus, and all that crap already built into them. I would say that Apple better get going with their ATV App Store because all the major TV makers already have theirs up and running.

Chip NoVaMac
Jan 24, 2011, 01:17 PM
For anyone who has purchased a standard HDTV over the last 12 months, the ATV2 really doesn't do anything new besides offer people iTunes content right to their HDTV. The vast majority of HDTVs being sold now already have Netflix, Youtube, Hulu Plus, and all that crap already built into them. I would say that Apple better get going with their ATV App Store because all the major TV makers already have theirs up and running.

Apple has shown for sometime they can produce things that we can't seem to live without... I had been on the fence about the ATV2 at first. But given that my HDTV is about three years old, and my bedroom TV is is basically a monitor - ATV2 fits in nicely with my Mac setup.

My collection of DVD's converted to my desktop Mac for playback to the ATV2; through the iTunes library. Add the Apple Remote from my iPad and using the ATV2 is awesome. The ability to stream my iTunes music through out the house as I do chores is sweet as well. Control from central server point is where it is at for me.

I don't see an ATV3 till at least next year. Till then I see Apple adding an ATV App store; and Hulu Plus being added with the subscriptions service that Apple is working on with News Corp with the Daily app.

dmr727
Jan 24, 2011, 01:26 PM
For anyone who has purchased a standard HDTV over the last 12 months, the ATV2 really doesn't do anything new besides offer people iTunes content right to their HDTV.

Or content straight from an iPhone or iPad, which I've used a lot more than I thought I would. It's pretty slick.

mikerudolph22
Jan 24, 2011, 01:35 PM
For anyone who has purchased a standard HDTV over the last 12 months, the ATV2 really doesn't do anything new besides offer people iTunes content right to their HDTV. The vast majority of HDTVs being sold now already have Netflix, Youtube, Hulu Plus, and all that crap already built into them. I would say that Apple better get going with their ATV App Store because all the major TV makers already have theirs up and running.

True, my tv does have all that stuff...but if you want your iTunes content in the living room without having your computer there, ATV2 is a WAY better deal than buying the identically priced AirPort Express base station. Plus it adds the Apple Store videos into that mix...although Amazon OnDemand and VUDU (vudu has 1080p video rentals) are way better.

Anyway, for me, at $99 in the US, it was a good deal.

kas23
Jan 24, 2011, 01:37 PM
Or content straight from an iPhone or iPad, which I've used a lot more than I thought I would. It's pretty slick.

I guess for $99 that is a pretty cool feature.

Photics
Jan 24, 2011, 01:51 PM
I was writing about the Apple TV on my site today (http://photics.com/the-poor-mans-apple-tv). Basically, the article goes like this...

Even at $99, the 2010 Apple TV doesn't do anything that special. The most useful feature to me is that it can run Netflix. Yet, my iPhone runs Netflix. And with a $30 cable, I can simply connect my iPhone to my TV - and charge up my iPhone at the same time.

Apple could be a game changer - literally. It should be a game console. For $99, or even $150 with a Wiimote type of device, it could revolutionize TV and Game Consoles.


TV Channels as Apps, as a way to circumvent cable companies... ŗ-la-carte pricing.
Cheap games... Angry Birds, Fruit Ninja, Cut The Rope... Nintendo's nightmare.
Game Center can compete with XBOX live and PlayStation Network


At $99, that's a cheap Christmas gift. I almost bought one, but no one really wanted it. They either didn't understand what it could do... or when they understood, they weren't impressed.

The Apple TV is either a missed opportunity... or the groundwork for an assault on the living room.

adbe
Jan 24, 2011, 01:52 PM
For anyone who has purchased a standard HDTV over the last 12 months, the ATV2 really doesn't do anything new besides offer people iTunes content right to their HDTV. The vast majority of HDTVs being sold now already have Netflix, Youtube, Hulu Plus, and all that crap already built into them. I would say that Apple better get going with their ATV App Store because all the major TV makers already have theirs up and running.

As does my Blu-Ray player, but the experience is miserable.

The ATV (and for that matter XBMC, PS3, and 360) offer(s) a much better UI than most TV/Blu-Rays.

Not that this saved TiVo.

belvdr
Jan 24, 2011, 01:56 PM
As does my Blu-Ray player, but the experience is miserable.

My LG does Netflix great. Unfortunately, it's an older model, so it doesn't have Hulu.

adbe
Jan 24, 2011, 02:05 PM
The most useful feature to me is that it can run Netflix.

I imagine for most users iTunes is the key feature.


Yet, my iPhone runs Netflix. And with a $30 cable, I can simply connect my iPhone to my TV - and charge up my iPhone at the same time.


That's fine, but not really useful in a family environment.


Apple could be a game changer - literally. It should be a game console. For $99, or even $150 with a Wiimote type of device, it could revolutionize TV and Game Consoles.


People who want a games console capable of running Netflix have a pretty complete choice already. Two of them do better than 720p as well.


TV Channels as Apps, as a way to circumvent cable companies... ŗ-la-carte pricing.


Apple have no ability to make this happen.

Cheap games... Angry Birds, Fruit Ninja, Cut The Rope... Nintendo's nightmare.

Not really. Nintendo's nightmare is that people stop buying expensive 1st party Nintendo titles. Angry Birds is not going to dent the market for Mario Galaxy.


The Apple TV is either a missed opportunity... or the groundwork for an assault on the living room.

It's a placeholder while Apple try to gauge where the market is headed.

Chip NoVaMac
Jan 24, 2011, 02:45 PM
True, my tv does have all that stuff...but if you want your iTunes content in the living room without having your computer there, ATV2 is a WAY better deal than buying the identically priced AirPort Express base station. Plus it adds the Apple Store videos into that mix...although Amazon OnDemand and VUDU (vudu has 1080p video rentals) are way better.

Anyway, for me, at $99 in the US, it was a good deal.

Maybe I am missing something here.... how does iTunes content stream to the ATV2 without the main computer with the iTunes library being active work? Are you talking about Airplay? Or is there something I am missing in using my Airport Extreme?

Chip NoVaMac
Jan 24, 2011, 03:32 PM
{Hopefully the mods will not mind a separate post to reply to yours - know it is poor form to follow-up quickly...}

I was writing about the Apple TV on my site today (http://photics.com/the-poor-mans-apple-tv). Basically, the article goes like this...

Even at $99, the 2010 Apple TV doesn't do anything that special. The most useful feature to me is that it can run Netflix. Yet, my iPhone runs Netflix. And with a $30 cable, I can simply connect my iPhone to my TV - and charge up my iPhone at the same time.

Apple could be a game changer - literally. It should be a game console. For $99, or even $150 with a Wiimote type of device, it could revolutionize TV and Game Consoles.


TV Channels as Apps, as a way to circumvent cable companies... ŗ-la-carte pricing.
Cheap games... Angry Birds, Fruit Ninja, Cut The Rope... Nintendo's nightmare.
Game Center can compete with XBOX live and PlayStation Network


At $99, that's a cheap Christmas gift. I almost bought one, but no one really wanted it. They either didn't understand what it could do... or when they understood, they weren't impressed.

The Apple TV is either a missed opportunity... or the groundwork for an assault on the living room.

Read your review (unlike others that might slam you without reading it through first...) Some may call you a troll as a newbie here... but your bias does come through.

Too be fair many of us that bought the ATV2 did not look at it as a game machine like you thought they could have made it. Maybe that will come with an ATV2 app store. Till then accept the ATV2 for it is... a great way to view videos, listen to music, and look at photos.

One of the key points that made me happy that I went with the ATV2 over your solution of the iPhone with the component cable was:


Within moments of receiving the cable, I had it hooked up to my TV and I was watching Netflix. The picture quality was pretty good too. While not perfect replacement for an Apple TV, itís good enough.


Some of us are willing to pay the price to get past "good enough". Though I do want to see about trying your solution to just see how good the video is.


Itís a bit of a hassle to change movies. I actually have to stand up and walk over to the iOS device. Since I was using a laptop on my living room TV, the iPhone is actually a more elegant Netflix player. Another annoying issue Ė notifications. If youíre in the middle of a good movie, a sudden text message can ruin the mood.


I haven't tried my iPhone as a remote much, my iPad proved to be a better companion with the movies I have in iTunes. For me I want my viewing pleasure to be just that... my iPhone sitting near by with notifications without interrupting my movie.


These problems are software related. Apple could add better support for hooking up an iPhone / iPad / iPod Touch to the TV. Yet, that would probably hurt Apple TV sales. But since an Apple TV is not ready to play games ó at least not yet ó I decided to save money.


Saving money is cool as long as saving it you are willing to live with the limitations.... in the end you decided against the ATV2 without really trying it. Though for those folks out there with an iPhone and limited funds you gave an option.

A final thought on your comment:


The Apple TV doesnít have a screen and isnít meant to go anywhere. Itís just a thing that connects to a TVÖ and it doesnít even include the HDMI cable to do even that.


One of the things you have to realize about any company that sells a product, is that add-ons add to the overall profit for them and their resellers. "Want fries with that?" or " "You want desert to finish off you meal?".

Yes, many of us have extra cables hanging around. You have to just ask anyone that sells a printer; just how often they add a USB printer cable when their customer purchases a printer now a days. LOL

HDMI is not there as of yet in my experience at the store I work at.....

aross99
Jan 24, 2011, 04:34 PM
First and foremost, the Apple TV is an APPLE centric product - that is the value add over the other boxes like the Roku, etc.

You can rent movies and TV shows from the ITUNES STORE. You can stream ITUNES music from your IPHONE or IPAD or iTUNES.

For people who have media from the iTunes store, and in iTunes, it is a fantastic product.

If you are NOT using iTunes, or NOT using an iPhone or iPad, etc, then it's not for you. It's not designed to work with other things.

The Nexflix streaming is a bonus, and one of the few non-Apple centric things it does.

If you want something that fits in with all of your Apple products, then get an Apple TV. If you want something that does more than that - then get one of the other products, because you are going to be disappointed with the Apple TV.

For me it is a no brainer, and it does everything I want. If they add an ATV store with some new apps like HULU plus, etc, that would be even better.

bozzykid
Jan 24, 2011, 06:00 PM
The ATV (and for that matter XBMC, PS3, and 360) offer(s) a much better UI than most TV/Blu-Rays.


To be fair, the ATV does less than most blu-ray players too.

hitekalex
Jan 24, 2011, 06:07 PM
To be fair, the ATV does less than most blu-ray players too.

No. Show me a Blu-Ray player that lets me stream my iTunes media, does NetFlix, YouTube, supports movie and TV show rentals, and supports AirPlay. Oh.. right, there are none.

WiiDSmoker
Jan 24, 2011, 06:15 PM
No. Show me a Blu-Ray player that lets me stream my iTunes media, does NetFlix, YouTube, supports movie and TV show rentals, and supports AirPlay. Oh.. right, there are none.

That can go both ways.

Show me an Apple TV that lets me use Vudu, Amazon, BlockBuster and supports DLNA.

aross99
Jan 24, 2011, 08:17 PM
That can go both ways.

Show me an Apple TV that lets me use Vudu, Amazon, BlockBuster and supports DLNA.

If these are the things you want to do - then the Apple TV isn't for you. Apple is never going to add functionality for these types of things, so unless we get an Apple TV app store, it's not going to happen.

The Apple TV is designed first and foremost to stream files from the iTunes Store and from iTunes. If you want to work with files from other sources, you need to look at another device...

Uofmtiger
Jan 24, 2011, 10:20 PM
I already have a PS3 that does most of what I need. I got an Atv2 mainly for Airpay and iTunes (using the Remote software). I keep a mini on all the time, so it is not a problem to run iTunes. For $99 (actually I got it as a present, but I would have bought it) I am happy with it. They priced it right, and with the Internet shows (Cnet, photography, etc..) and Netflix, I think it offers great bang for the buck.

You can do many of the same things by cabling you iPhone or iPad to you system, but I much prefer the Airplay approach.

Photics
Jan 25, 2011, 07:12 AM
Read your review (unlike others that might slam you without reading it through first...) Some may call you a troll as a newbie here... but your bias does come through.

A newbie? That wouldn't be accurate. I've been using Macs for about 17 years. As for bias... maybe the bias is that I like to see Apple succeed. Apple TV seems like a missed opportunity and has been so for years.

Last holiday season, I went to an Apple store to look for the Apple TV. I had trouble finding it. The first time I looked for it, I couldn't find it. I thought it was sold out. The second time I found it. The little Apple TV was hidden off to the side. It's like Apple's not serious about this thing.

So, the selling points are... babies that might smash electronics or users with huge iTunes libraries might find it useful. That's not exactly something that looks like a nice bullet-point on the box.


Your baby probably won't break it.
Buy more videos on iTunes!


One of the huge reasons to get an iPhone... APPS. The biggest action in the iTunes App Store... GAMES. This isn't rocket science. Even if people aren't interested in games, it can help move hardware. If more people are using the hardware, the more cool things that can be done with it.

Maybe people are missing what I wrote... I wanted to buy the Apple TV. I thought it would make a great gift. Yet, it wasn't appropriate for anyone I knew. They didn't want it and/or didn't understand it.

No. Show me a Blu-Ray player that lets me stream my iTunes media, does NetFlix, YouTube, supports movie and TV show rentals, and supports AirPlay. Oh.. right, there are none.

The PlayStation 3 is pretty close. Unmodified, it can do Blu-Ray, Netflix, YouTube and TV/Movies are in the PlayStation store.

As for AirPlay / iTunes, I'm not sure. There might be a mod for that. I think a friend of mine mentioned that he was streaming stuff from his computer to his PS3.

Also, I'm thinking a PC could do all of that stuff. Maybe not AirPlay, but I'm thinking there's probably something similar on the Windows side.

That's the way I look at the Apple TV. If I want a Netflix player, I can use a $30 cable and an iPhone. I can sit this one out until Apple makes the Apple TV more interesting. If I want a full-featured TV companion, I can get another PS3, or an XBOX 360.

I think Apple blew it this round - unless the goal was to build a foundation first and then introduce apps the following year. That's why I didn't buy the 2010 Apple TV. It seems like a placeholder for something cooler in the future.

If the Apple TV could run iOS apps, I think that would be amazing.

Omne666
Jan 25, 2011, 07:56 AM
To be fair, the ATV does less than most blu-ray players too.

Your kidding me right??

Tilpots
Jan 25, 2011, 08:04 AM
A newbie?

Just under your name there on the left, it says "newbie." That's to what he was referring.

If the Apple TV could run iOS apps, I think that would be amazing.


Apparently it can. Plex and XBMC are now both confirmed to running on the ATV2. Amazing indeed.

hitekalex
Jan 25, 2011, 08:20 AM
Also, I'm thinking a PC could do all of that stuff. Maybe not AirPlay, but I'm thinking there's probably something similar on the Windows side.

How does a "PC" even come into this conversation?? Other than a small group of hard-core geeks - the market has shown that people have zero interest in connecting computers to their TVs. Apple TV is a tiny, silent $99 device that draws zero power. Which is why I have 3 of them. I do not want a loud power-sucking windows-infested "peecee" as a replacement! ;)

That's the way I look at the Apple TV. If I want a Netflix player, I can use a $30 cable and an iPhone.

Yikes. Why bother with cables and tie up your phone, when I can have an always-on low-cost device, which gives me immediate access to NetFlix and my own media.

I think Apple blew it this round - unless the goal was to build a foundation first and then introduce apps the following year.

Yeah, they really blew it. That's why Apple TV's were widely sold out (http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/10/06/apple-tv/) when they went on sale, and sold a million units (http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/21/new-apple-tv-sales-to-top-1-million-this-week-itunes-tv-show-and-movie-rentals-soaring/) a few months since the introduction! Apple TV will never satisfy people who want "everything and a kitchensink".. But it's been a huge success in a general marketplace.

powerman
Jan 25, 2011, 10:00 AM
I don't have all the latest and greatest apple products. I am an average person, with a computer that runs Itunes, for my ipod. I don't have an Iphone, Ipad, Ipod touch. Connecting my comp to my tv, has problems as the babys/kids/animals get into it a lot. But I can hook up my ATV to my tv, watch my itunes stuff on my big screen tv. Cool. What I can put my home movies on my big screen, really Cool. I can put my dvd collection on my comp and watch them without haveing to change disks, and put tthe kids dvds on the comp without them getting thrashed wow how did I get by with out this. What I may be able to watch internet videos on my big screen now I am hooked. What else does apple make that can change my life and make it so much better.
They label it as a hobby but it is more like a gateway drug into a world of euphoria that is mac usage over windows. Like the Ipod to mobile music, it is going to make apple into a real player in the big screen. I have read many post on other sites that talk about being hard core PC users that have surrounded themselves with the latest and greatest mac products. The high end PC with many Ipods they have bought to get the latest and greatest, then the Iphone, then the Ipad and finally the ATV. Some even have gone somuch to call themselve a mac fan boy and even, gasp, buy an mac.
Can the Atv be more? You bet it can, it can do so much more, but why rush into it, the average users have to be introduced to it. Make it easy, make it fun and make it relevant. We the users are doing most of the advertising for apple. Every time I have someone over and they see how it works, what it can do and why I use it, they go and buy one for themselves. There friends see it and they want it. At a price of 99 dollars in the US it will not break the bank.
The people at Apple are not stupid, they have got to this postion through a lot of trial and error. They have put out a stratigic plan that is aimed at the not so techy people, that is were the money is. We will see a lot more from the atv when we get more people using it. I am about to introduce my parents and my inlaws to the world of Atv, and they will love it because it is clean and simple and if my father and law can use it, anyone can use it. That is going to be my litmus test on the atv and how it will do in the future. So Atv three, yes, this year maybe, app store, yes, all the features we the techy people want, NO. We want it all, including the stuff we can,t think of but expect it to be availble. Apple follows the Ford experience, when asked why Henry Ford made the car, he said, "If I would have asked the customers what they wanted, they would have asked for a faster horse." Apple has been giving us stuff we can not even think about, but can't live without when it is here.
Sorry it is long but I have been hearing the same things about the atv for a while and I have even heard the words come out of my mouth. Apple is going after a bigger share of the market than just the heavy computer user.

Photics
Jan 25, 2011, 11:59 AM
How does a "PC" even come into this conversation?? Other than a small group of hard-core geeks - the market has shown that people have zero interest in connecting computers to their TVs.

An HDMI port is becoming a standard option on most new computers and laptops. I was using a laptop before I used my iPhone. Phone to TV is becoming a common feature on Android phones too.

Yikes. Why bother with cables and tie up your phone, when I can have an always-on low-cost device, which gives me immediate access to NetFlix and my own media.


I don't like throwing out computer hardware. I feel the Apple TV is like the first generation iPhone, destined for obsolescence.
When watching a good movie, I think it's a good idea to eliminate distractions... that means not playing with your phone. This makes for a more dramatic movie viewing experience.
It's cheaper!


Maybe these reasons are not terribly compelling to you. Yet, I was also curious to see if the component cable would work. From what I've read, jailbreaking an iPhone will make the video out less restrictive. Basically... it turns an iPhone to a game console.

The oddities...

Apple sells the $30 component cable for $50.
Apple restricts what the iPhone screen can display.
A Jailbroken iPhone can work as a game console
The Apple TV doesn't have an app store

I haven't jailbroken my iPhone. Although, it is legal. So, while the $30 cable may seem cumbersome to you, it actually allows a lot of advanced features for those who do jailbreak their iOS device...


Video Capture - excellent for game developers making videos of their games
Game Console - There are interesting solutions to the controller issue.
I think it's a better than an Apple TV



But it's been a huge success in a general marketplace.

I think it could be bigger.

The 2010 Apple TV basically runs on iOS. This isn't a huge stretch. Why did Apple stop short? When I think about Microsoft, how they had a successful Christmas season with the Kinect, why did Apple release a mediocre device? I don't know the answer. Heh... maybe memories of the Pippin makes Apple hesitate to reenter the console market.

hitekalex
Jan 25, 2011, 12:34 PM
An HDMI port is becoming a standard option on most new computers and laptops.

The physical Video out port is the least of the problem. It's all the other things I mentioned - space, power consumption, noise, and just a general ugliness of connecting a PC to a TV.. Which is why the market place generally rejected this model, and we see dedicated small form-factor media appliances (Apple TV, Roku, etc) become so popular.

Phone to TV is becoming a common feature on Android phones too.
[...]
It's cheaper!

You can probably fetch more than $99 for your previous-gen iPhone on eBay, which will easily cover your Apple TV and then some. So there goes your "cheaper" argument.

I think you and I have different priorities in home media center. It sounds like you like to tinker and experiment with things, which is cool. In my case - I like my whole family to be able to easily use my home media setup, which is exactly what Apple TV gives me. My 4 year old can easily navigate Apple TV and select content to play. Good luck doing getting anywhere near that with an HDMI-attached smartphone or a computer!

The 2010 Apple TV basically runs on iOS. This isn't a huge stretch. Why did Apple stop short?

Because that's what Apple does. They release technology in phases, and add features when the platform reaches certain footprint.. And they're confident they can deliver the next wave of features in a rock-solid and successful package. Contract that with other vendors that just push out half-baked products and hope that something sticks (Google TV is a case in point). Just relax and wait a bit - App Store for Apple TV is coming, and that's when Apple TV will truly leave the competition in the dust.

Photics
Jan 25, 2011, 01:01 PM
You can probably fetch more than $99 for your previous-gen iPhone on eBay, which will easily cover your Apple TV and then some. So there goes your "cheaper" argument.

I have an iPhone 4. I don't have a first generation iPhone. I was comparing the Apple TV to the first generation iPhone.

Just relax and wait a bit - App Store for Apple TV is coming, and that's when Apple TV will truly leave the competition in the dust.

Heh, I am waiting. I'm not relaxed about it though. I suspect that an App Store for the Apple TV will be released eventually, maybe late this year. Will the App Store be retroactive though? Will the 2010 Apple TV be strong enough to run it - will it run it at all? I don't know. There's too much uncertainty about the future of this gadget. That's why I'm waiting. I'd rather wait it out with the $30 cable and then buy a newer Apple TV when the Apple TV App Store is ready.

newagemac
Jan 25, 2011, 02:46 PM
That can go both ways.

Show me an Apple TV that lets me use Vudu, Amazon, BlockBuster and supports DLNA.

Why the heck would someone prefer to use DLNA over Airplay?

How does a "PC" even come into this conversation?? Other than a small group of hard-core geeks - the market has shown that people have zero interest in connecting computers to their TVs. Apple TV is a tiny, silent $99 device that draws zero power. Which is why I have 3 of them. I do not want a loud power-sucking windows-infested "peecee" as a replacement! ;)



Yikes. Why bother with cables and tie up your phone, when I can have an always-on low-cost device, which gives me immediate access to NetFlix and my own media.



Yeah, they really blew it. That's why Apple TV's were widely sold out (http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/10/06/apple-tv/) when they went on sale, and sold a million units (http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/21/new-apple-tv-sales-to-top-1-million-this-week-itunes-tv-show-and-movie-rentals-soaring/) a few months since the introduction! Apple TV will never satisfy people who want "everything and a kitchensink".. But it's been a huge success in a general marketplace.

Not to mention, using a component cable from your iPhone you can only get up to standard definition 480p. Whereas with Airplay, the quality isn't reduced and you get 720p HD. It's like an HDMI cable only much better because your device isn't tied up and you can control playback and browse content using multitouch as well as multitask while the video is playing. Especially when using the iPad, there isn't a single media experience better than that on the market today.

I don't think the OP realizes just how well these things have been selling. Apple sold over a million of these ATV2 devices in less than 3 months. To put that in perspective, Roku (the 2nd best selling dedicated media streamer) only just crossed the million mark for the entire history of them selling all of their different Roku devices. It took Apple 3 months with one device what it took Roku 3 years to do for all their devices. This is almost like how nobody was selling tablets in good volume until the iPad was released. That 1 million in sales over 3 months is very impressive for this category of product and probably why Apple is supporting it very well with regular updates.

And it's only $99 bucks. What's the point of holding out for the newest model? There will always be something newer coming out and if you're really that worried about a tech device this cheap, you could probably sell it on ebay for $75 by the time the next one comes out. So you still lost money on your $30 cable. :D :p

Besides, if a new one does come out it probably won't be until the annual September iPod event. I don't think it's worth missing out on all it has to offer because you're wondering if something better is coming out over half a year away at the earliest for such a low priced device. A $1000 computer I could understand, but this thing is just $99 bucks.

powerman
Jan 25, 2011, 03:38 PM
And most people have 2 tvs or more. Get an apple tv 2 for your living room and when the next gen comes out get it for the living room and put the atv2 on a different tv. And if you only have one tv then use it to take to other peoples houses that don't have atv and play your media on there tvs.

hitekalex
Jan 25, 2011, 04:39 PM
Why the heck would someone prefer to use DLNA over Airplay?

No one would, as DLNA is garbage. AirPlay is the result of cross-device media streaming done right.

rayward
Jan 25, 2011, 04:58 PM
Even at $99, the 2010 Apple TV doesn't do anything that special.

It does exactly what it is supposed to do: give slow adopters a reason to buy one, driving more customers to the iTunes store. At that, it's been a roaring success.

Photics
Jan 26, 2011, 07:32 AM
It does exactly what it is supposed to do: give slow adopters a reason to buy one, driving more customers to the iTunes store. At that, it's been a roaring success.

What happened to insanely great?! I thought Apple was about making great products. I see the 2010 Apple TV as a mediocre product. There are already plenty of ways to waste money on TV shows and Movies.

Not to mention, using a component cable from your iPhone you can only get up to standard definition 480p.

Maybe you're confusing component with composite. The component cable is a high-definition cable. I didn't count the pixels, but the picture quality looked rather sharp.

I'm curious about this. I'm going to go test it on another TV. My Sony TV lets me know what resolution the screen is displayed at.

Photics
Jan 26, 2011, 07:40 AM
Wow... I just tested it with Netflix. The screen's at 480P.

On the bright-side, now I'm watching Robocop. :p

rusty2192
Jan 26, 2011, 08:55 AM
Wow... I just tested it with Netflix. The screen's at 480P.

On the bright-side, now I'm watching Robocop. :p

Only some of Netflix content is HD. When you select the movie or show to see the details, the HD logo will appear below the description if it is available in HD, which will automatically be played. This is a netflix restriction, not Apple. Either way, I find the picture more than acceptable on my 47" LCD tv in both 480p and 720p. :D

bobr1952
Jan 26, 2011, 04:54 PM
True, my tv does have all that stuff...but if you want your iTunes content in the living room without having your computer there, ATV2 is a WAY better deal than buying the identically priced AirPort Express base station. Plus it adds the Apple Store videos into that mix...although Amazon OnDemand and VUDU (vudu has 1080p video rentals) are way better.

Anyway, for me, at $99 in the US, it was a good deal.

Exactly!

Regardless of limitation of ATV2, when you are trying to make a decision of either another Airport Express to port music--or an ATV--it makes not sense to get the Express if the receiver also handles your HT as it does in my case. Even if I never use it for video, at least I know I can--and in the meantime it will deliver my digital audio for the same price as an Express. I just ordered my ATV from Amazon today. :)

Dapness
Jan 26, 2011, 08:52 PM
What happened to insanely great?! I thought Apple was about making great products. I see the 2010 Apple TV as a mediocre product. There are already plenty of ways to waste money on TV shows and Movies.

I don't agree with much of what you've been saying here but you know what, you're right about one thing, this is a mediocre product. Steve Jobs probably wouldn't tell you that but he knows it. There was a good interview with him last year concerning all these streaming devices and he highlighted the complications there are with them. He said Google TV wasn't going to sell and he was right. He didn't want to throw a bunch of R&D towards a device that would cost $300 and have it fail because although it could do great things, people aren't interested in spending that much money on a media center right now. They didn't set out to blow peoples minds with the ultimate home media device ... yet. Obviously, or they would have started by shipping it with a processor capable of handling flawless 1080p. But, the iTunes store doesn't stream 1080p yet so we probably won't see that happeneing until it does. I bought a 1st Gen Apple TV early on and I still love it to this day. I wish it didn't cost me $250 at the time but it works great. It now resides in the kids play room and my three year old has NO problem finding Wall-E. Is the Apple TV worth $100? Hmm, maybe. The specs say no (versus other streamers) but the UI and ease of use make up for that in my opinion.

You want to talk about missed oportunities then I'd have to say the PS3 is a big one. I bought one of those to try out as a media center. Ughhh, no thanks. It's got all the muscle to do whatever you want but no MKV support (PS3 Media Streamer never worked right for me) and the UI is lame (I hate the drill down folders). I could go on but those we're the biggest issues I had. It now sits in my bedroom as an overpriced Netflix player that sees an occasional game of FIFA Soccer ;)

When the Apple TV can do 1080p (not choppy hacked XBMC 1080p) that's when I'll jump back on board. Until then I've got my Mac Mini Plex machine and I'm going to keep my eye on the Boxee Box. Hopefully they'll get all the issues worked out because that seems like the total package at an affordable price.

newagemac
Jan 26, 2011, 09:14 PM
What happened to insanely great?! I thought Apple was about making great products. I see the 2010 Apple TV as a mediocre product. There are already plenty of ways to waste money on TV shows and Movies.



Maybe you're confusing component with composite. The component cable is a high-definition cable. I didn't count the pixels, but the picture quality looked rather sharp.

I'm curious about this. I'm going to go test it on another TV. My Sony TV lets me know what resolution the screen is displayed at.

No, I am not confusing anything. I know component supports HD resolutions but you aren't going to get that from your iPhone with the Component cable.

With component you are limited to 480p and with composite you are limited to 480i. The Apple TV2 on the other hand gets you 720p HD. Huge difference.

Photics
Jan 28, 2011, 04:09 PM
I saw an interesting article about Apple...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/The-Zen-Buddhist-Trick-That-siliconalley-3780714768.html

Some of the biggest problems I have with Apple is the stuff they leave out...


First iMac - No floppy, SCSI or ADP Port
Mac Mouse - No right click (I really like the new MacBook Pro with the right-click)
Apple TV - No Apps
iPhone - No Hardware Keyboard


Yet, it seems like these decisions are intentional. It doesn't make sense to me how less is somehow more.

I switched to PC when the iMac was originally released
I have a right-click mouse connected to my Mac.
I don't own an Apple TV
I can get a hardware keyboard for my iPhone 4


And yet, this thread is filled with lots of support for Apple TV. OK, so my $30 cable idea is not that popular. For those not into such a cumbersome alternative... Roku is $59.99-$99.99. It's not that much different than an Apple TV. Apple's device just doesn't seem that competitive to me.

Yet, maybe it's just Apple's slow and simple approach again. If the Apple TV progresses like the iPhone and the iPod, maybe I'll like it in a few years.

Revels
Jan 29, 2011, 09:50 AM
Are you a troll or just super dull?

Floppy died a long time ago. Apple knew it was going. Why stick with it? I suppose you'd like it on a 2010 MBA?

Oh on. No right click. So? If that's such a big deal, stick with Windows. You can still right click anyway if you wish to set it up that way.

App Store? Patience.

The best touchscreen available and you want to add on a bulky keyboard? Take away half the screen? I'm glad you don't have to make these decisions.

There was nothing wrong with the original iPhone. It lacked features that todays iPhone 4 has that's obvious. But so did every phone back then. Maybe Apple should have released with iPhone with dual cameras, video, retina display, App Store etc etc.

Some people aren't cheap. A $30 cable that you have to plug in everytime is annoying. Yes, it might cut down on distractions but when about when it rings and it's an important call? Then what? Answer it on your knees because it's still connected to the tv? Awesome.

Things progress. Apple know exactly what they're doing.

I don't think AppleTv will get a conventional App Store. There will be Apps that you buy on your iPhone/iPad/Touch and it connects to the AppleTv via AirPlay. This has already been done by people and it works well. There is currently no space to store Apps on the AppleTv anyway.

bobr1952
Jan 29, 2011, 10:54 AM
Would be refreshing to look at what a product does instead of what it doesn't do. :)

HobeSoundDarryl
Jan 29, 2011, 01:44 PM
But, the iTunes store doesn't stream 1080p yet so we probably won't see that happeneing until it does.

I'm generally with much of what you said. However, this particular point gets thrown around too much. The owners of the content won't bother trying to put 1080p in the iTunes store until there is an opportunity to profit from it being there. They could put everything they got up in 1080p today (1080p video will go right into iTunes and play back from there just fine), but sales/rentals of that content would be near ZERO. Why? There's no 1080p :apple:TV hardware installed in any homes capable of playing it back.

The HARDWARE must lead this race, meaning Apple needs to get generation 3+ flowing into homes with the capability of 1080p playback so that the numbers build up large enough to tempt some studio to want to test the profitability of content >720p/30fps. In theory, it should be cheaper for the Studios to sell their content in a digital form rather than putting it on a disc and giving Walmart or Best Buy a big cut. Thus, they should be naturally motivated by their own greed (and we pretty much always see them as too greedy don't we) to give this a go. However, Apple is not feeding that greed with any fundamental opportunity: how could any studio make big profits from 1080p iTunes store content today?

Imagine stores full of BD discs but no players on which to play them. How many discs would sell? Besides, it would make little to no sense to fill those stores with BD discs if there were no players on which to play them. This is exactly the same: the hardware must either come first or arrive at the same time as the 1080p software. It can't work the other way.

When the Apple TV can do 1080p (not choppy hacked XBMC 1080p) that's when I'll jump back on board.
That's where I am too (still using the first generation). The cheerleaders will probably come back with "but the bandwidth", "but the storage", "the chart", and the rest of the usual assortment of why we should like the current offering exactly as Apple wants us/them to like it, but the fact is that if this is Apple's answer to the "bag of hurt", it should compete head-to-head on the most fundamental benefits: picture & sound quality... and it fails on those points BY DESIGN.

And before someone pitches "no (legal) sources are available", I've had several 1080HD camcorders for several years now. Apple even provides the tools (even iMovie) to edit & render a 1080 movie, which will go right into iTunes and play just fine there. The weak link is this one- how to get that 1080HD movie from iTunes to the HDTV in some family-friendly way. :apple:TV should be the obvious solution. But it fails us here.

No streaming sources available? Visit Vudu.com (apparently they have found a way to stream 1080p, through our crappy bandwidth, for playback on <$99 HD set top boxes). Apparently, they see enough business from people that don't accept "the chart" and instead want 1080p (in spite of "not being able to see any difference").

It would have cost much more? No, there's lots of other little :apple:TV-like boxes available for $99 and less. See Roku for example. Apple could have put 1080p hardware in there if they wanted to do so. Besides, I think those of us that wish for an :apple:TV with 1080p would probably gladly pay more than $99 for :apple:TV elegance (and iTunes connectivity) on 1080p hardware. Personally, I wish the previous gen's final software version would add Netflix and be made available as the new "Front Row". Then I'd just pay MUCH MORE for a Mac Mini and let it take over this job.

But "I" don't want to pay/waste bandwidth/store 1080p content? No problem, those who don't want to pay/waste bandwidth/store 720p still generally have the option to download SD video alternatives. For those that find SD good enough, they get a smaller file, that will eat less bandwidth and stores in less space on their end. No difference here: don't want the 1080 file? No problem: choose the 720p "as is" file or the SD alternatives. EVERYONE would get what they want this way.

Maybe they'll get it completely right in the third (hardware) try... hopefully not another 2-4 years from now? Else, the "bag of hurt" continues to be king (and rapidly grow) for those that want better than 720p30fps.

Photics
Jan 29, 2011, 04:08 PM
Floppy died a long time ago. Apple knew it was going. Why stick with it? I suppose you'd like it on a 2010 MBA?

Today, obviously Floppy disks are a relic, as are SCSI scanners, QuickCams and Jaz Drives. But back then, to upgrade my computer I had to abandon hundreds of dollars in hardware. Yes, the stuff is way obsolete these days. But in the late '90s it was still very useful to me. If I had to start from scratch, I decided it was cheaper to switch to Windows... where it was easy to find cheap hardware, good software and lots of great games.

Oh on. No right click. So? If that's such a big deal, stick with Windows. You can still right click anyway if you wish to set it up that way.

Perhaps you're missing the point. I started liking Macs again when Right-Click hardware became standard with the Mac Book Pro. I was really impressed with the trackpad. At first I wondered... where are the buttons? Then I realized... IT IS THE BUTTON! It was a great improvement. With all those ninja-like gestures, it was even better — true innovation.

It was the first time I bought a Mac in over a decade. I ultimately returned it and picked up a Mac Mini, but seeing such progress is why I started liking Apple again.

Looking back at the original iMac, I think it's a hideous looking computer — with the hockey puck mouse and fish-tank design. Yet, the iMac eventually progressed into something more attractive and professional. The new iMac, while not my favorite, is a nice looking computer.

How does an Apple TV improve anything? Making it easier to spend money on movies really isn't an improvement to me. Apple TV is not much different than a Roku box... which is the same price or cheaper than an Apple TV.

A $30 cable that you have to plug in everytime is annoying. Yes, it might cut down on distractions but when about when it rings and it's an important call? Then what?

Actually, the cable stays connected to the TV. I simply walk over to the TV and connect the iPhone. It's no more difficult than connecting an iOS device to iTunes. The wire is nice and hidden, but easy to get to if I need it.

If it's an important phone call that interrupts my movie, I should probably pause the movie anyway. Heh, it's the unimportant text messages that are the problem.

I don't think the $30 cable is a suitable replacement for everyone. I decided to go with a $30 cable instead of an Apple TV because I'm waiting to see what happens. If the Apple TV matures into something useful, I can pick that up. If not, the XBOX 360 and a Kinect seems like more fun. It's a good Netflix player and a great entertainment package.

Revels
Jan 29, 2011, 05:01 PM
I don't have one yet. Being in the UK with more expensive shows/movies and nothing to stream, it's not such an attractive proposition.

I'd love love love them to do an unlimited streaming service. Even at $30 a month or something. That would be absolutely perfect.

Chip NoVaMac
Jan 29, 2011, 05:40 PM
A newbie? That wouldn't be accurate. I've been using Macs for about 17 years. As for bias... maybe the bias is that I like to see Apple succeed. Apple TV seems like a missed opportunity and has been so for years.

The "newbie thing was to your just joining up here on the MR....

The bias was bias towards gaming. Until an ATV App store opens up; many of us like what it can do right out of the box.

Would be refreshing to look at what a product does instead of what it doesn't do. :)

Amen there... held off on the 1st gen ATV because of price and limitations. The ATV2 knocked them all out for me. Love the streaming of my movies from my iMac to my two TV sets with ATV2's.

The interface is fine by me. Love being able to listen to my iTunes library while the screen saver is running pics from my iPhoto library. The addition of Airplay and Remote capabilities from my iPhone or iPad is even nicer.

jaw04005
Jan 29, 2011, 09:56 PM
Apple TV (Late 2010) was about two things:

1) bringing the price of the hardware down to $99
2) porting the Apple TV software to ARM/iOS

Apple sold more than 1 million units in less than 90 days. That's a huge win for the device.

The hints are pretty conclusive they aren't going to let Apple TV stagnate this time.

In fact, Apple TV has been in the "news" quite a bit of recent:

- Steve Jobs tells Bloomberg "When the time is right, Apple could open an App Store for the TV that could do for television sets what all those apps have done for the iPhone."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-02/steve-jobs-targets-living-rooms-with-new-apple-tv-set-top-box.html

- Engadget receives information from their source (who correctly provided information about the current Apple TV) that "Apple is at work on the second generation of its redesigned Apple TV, which will include that new A5 processor. The CPU is said to be blazingly fast, cranking out 1080p video like running water.'"

http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/14/exclusive-the-future-of-the-ipad-2-iphone-5-and-apple-tv-and/

- Jobs replies that AirPlay would be coming to third-party applications and Safari in 2011. (It's now available in developer beta form as part of iOS 4.3).

http://www.macrumors.com/2010/11/30/steve-jobs-airplay-video-streaming-coming-to-safari-and-third-party-apps-in-2011/

- Former members of the Apple TV team that transferred to other product teams are back working on the product again. (Maybe they'll fix the glaring "missing features" from the old Apple TV software update like nested folders for TV Seasons and Movies)

(Not going to out the source of this one.)

- Netflix Apple TV usage surpasses even iPad use.

http://www.businessinsider.com/netflix-earnings-analysis-2011-1

They'll hopefully release the Apple TV App Store at WWDC. Then ship a new 1080p capable Apple TV in September 2011.

Photics
Jan 29, 2011, 10:39 PM
The bias was bias towards gaming. Until an ATV App store opens up; many of us like what it can do right out of the box.

It's not just gaming that I'm interested in. I like the idea that Apple TV is a possibility for content producers to side-step the cable companies and broadcast directly to the viewers — Channels as apps!

By opening up the hardware to developers, that's when Apple TV can be interesting.

Games are a big part of the iTunes App Store, but that's not the only thing that goes on there. If Apple TV pretty much runs on iOS, why did Apple hold back? I'm not sure. The good thing for Apple TV, it seems to be in a better position than Google TV.

Netflix Apple TV usage surpasses even iPad use.

http://www.businessinsider.com/netflix-earnings-analysis-2011-1

I think you're linking to the wrong Business Insider Article...

http://www.businessinsider.com/netflix-apple-tv-passed-the-ipad-in-viewing-hours-2011-1

I saw the article before and I thought that was an interesting read. Heh, I was thinking about this thread when I read it. I thought that factoid might be a bit misleading. I don't see the iPad as a movie viewing device like the Wii, XBox 360 or PlayStation 3. The article didn't contain information on how Apple TV Netflix usage compared to non iOS devices.

I think there's lots of potential for the Apple TV. But right now I'm still disappointed with it. If there is an Apple TV App Store on the way, and it's retroactive for the 2010 version of the Apple TV, will I feel bad about spending $30 on a iOS to composite cable?

No. :)

I was just watching Netflix. (I watched "The Exam" which was surprisingly entertaining for me.) Heh, I find it funny that an iPhone can also a great movie player. I can still pick up an Apple TV later. I'm waiting to see what happens with the hardware / software for the Apple TV.

Joshwawilson
Apr 18, 2011, 08:34 PM
that's a great idea, especially when the technology is only on wifi anyway, why not be able to facetime while watching TV instead of only while on your iphone?

but i still think that the current $99 :apple:TV is a great deal, and does a lot for the money (especially when compared to the first gen)

I can use FaceTime with my 42" tv! ;) all I did was used the av adapter cable to mirror my iPad 2 onto my tv and used the smart cover to stand up my iPad and pointed it at myself. worked great!

prss14
Apr 19, 2011, 07:11 AM
It amazes me just how "controversial" the ATV has been. I have both ATV1 and ATV2. I have loved every minute of it and really can't imagine life without it. Also, my ATV2 was refurb, so, only $85. Why pay $100 for the same thing? The ATV is very upfront with what it isn't. It isn't for the person who must have 1080p from any format. Everyone knows it streams from iTunes and does 720p. Need something better get BlueRay. I am tired of the discs and boxes of cd/dvd cases. I give up a little picture quality, but don't have to deal with that. ATV is for people who use iTunes a lot. That happens to be me. So, ATV really works to play music/TV/movies for me.

What has apple done that makes people think they are going to make a device that has the top specs and will do everything? Would it be nice if they added some things that people have suggested? Sure, and I would welcome it, but people talk like they heard Steve say at a Keynote that ATV's will play every format and do everything and then upon release took it away and put in limitations. It should be quite obvious that Apple wants you to use apple products, use apple software and purchase media content from iTunes. We can disagree with that, but they are no different from any other company. The way they are different is they can actually get people to do it. Why don't people ask why PS3 doesn't play all the Nintendo or XBox games from the factory and sync with a Kinect or Airplay GameBoy Advance? (I am sure there are people who do complain) about that, but it seems more like just something to complain about thank looking at realistic solutions

thesk1llerz
Apr 19, 2011, 09:49 AM
ill buy one as soon as i can stream my videos from a hardrive connect to the atv

Che Castro
Apr 19, 2011, 01:52 PM
ill buy one as soon as i can stream my videos from a hardrive connect to the atv

You can do that with the first apple tv

thomasvision
Oct 14, 2011, 12:17 AM
I'm surprised no one mentioned a jail broken Apple TV2. Its pretty Awesome! Ice films is great.

pilotError
Oct 14, 2011, 09:13 PM
It's funny, I just had this argument in the comment section on Engadget. Someone commenting about how ATV sucks and his XBox is better...

For $99 its not a bad deal. It's an iTunes extender with a few cool features. It does what it does and fairly well.

Seriously, it's about as good as its going to get with all the Douchebag content providers holding everything back. Google didn't succeed because they tried to strong-arm the content providers by putting it out and then getting licensing. The content providers pulled the plug and Google TV was a still birth.

I wouldn't hold my breath for anything groundbreaking in the next release either. I can really see an iteration with the A5 CPU and 1080P output, which has probably been its biggest complaint.

Aside from that, it probably won't do much more than it does today unless content providers jump on board and free up the log jam for any content less than 10 years old. If they can pulling off streaming video with iCloud, that might just happen, but I doubt it. They are too afraid of marginalizing their business model...

The only way these things will ever take off is if the Cable companies allow 3rd party boxes along the lines of a Tivo to replace what they put out now. One box for everything, but it will never happen. The industry pretty much killed the cablecard initiative. What we have now is just too much work for the average consumer.

Whew... And finally!!! LOL Nobody can really agree what should be in the living room to begin with. Game machines that stream movies... DVR that can slice and dice video to your other gadgets... Cheap extenders that can also play games... I don't see that game changer happening any time soon.