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View Full Version : Reverse scrolling is a dangerous move




nathanl1192
Feb 25, 2011, 01:51 PM
I like the new scrolling system in Lion, but I can't help feeling it is a dangerous move for Apple.

Imagine people in the Apple Store, looking to buy their first mac, and are stumped at how to move up and down a page, with no scroll bar and reverse scrolling.

Imagine those, like me, who use mac's for part of the day, and pc's for the rest. I get mixed up and am always trying to cmd-Q on a PC, as Im so used to doing so on a mac, so scrolling will be a nightmare!

I have been using Lion for about 5 or 6 hours today, and am still not used to the scrolling! I do like the new one finger back/forward gestures in Safari, yet I still keep on switching applications by accident by using the two fingers I am so used to using in Snow Leopard.

Do you feel the same way as me, or do you think other companies may begin to follow Apple? Reply and take part in the Poll!



Cougarcat
Feb 25, 2011, 01:55 PM
I think Apple cares more about consistency across their own devices rather than operating like everyone else.

stainlessliquid
Feb 25, 2011, 01:58 PM
I think it will be dropped completely in the final version, wont even be an option to enable it. It doesnt make sense, you are not grabbing something and moving it around like a touchscreen, you are telling the controller to move the screenview down which means down should be down and right should be right.

Cougarcat
Feb 25, 2011, 02:05 PM
I think it will be dropped completely in the final version, wont even be an option to enable it. It doesnt make sense, you are not grabbing something and moving it around like a touchscreen, ]

Ah, but if you notice there are new subtle UI cues to make it seem like this is exactly what you're doing. Scroll in a safari view and you'll see a grey background, i.e your "desk," similar to the iOS grey background in safari when you scroll up too far. When you log out, you'll see that textured grey background again for a split second, and you see it beneath your spaces.

nathanl1192
Feb 25, 2011, 02:08 PM
Ah, but if you notice there are new subtle UI cues to make it seem like this is exactly what you're doing. Scroll in a safari view and you'll see a grey background, i.e your "desk," similar to the iOS grey background in safari when you scroll up too far. When you log out, you'll see that textured grey background again for a split second, and you see it beneath your spaces.

I noticed this as well! It is the same pattern as what is behind folders on iOS and on the multitasking bar.

Did you also notice that the dashboard background has been carried over from when iOS 4 was first demoed. It showed this pattern as the folder background, which was promptly replaced, but now is back again!

Cougarcat
Feb 25, 2011, 02:10 PM
Did you also notice that the dashboard background has been carried over from when iOS 4 was first demoed. It showed this pattern as the folder background, which was promptly replaced, but now is back again!

Yes, unfortunately. I find it horrendous. I bet it gets changed. Luckily unchecking the option that makes Dashboard behave as a space reverts to the old look.

stainlessliquid
Feb 25, 2011, 02:15 PM
Ah, but if you notice there are new subtle UI cues to make it seem like this is exactly what you're doing. Scroll in a safari view and you'll see a grey background, i.e your "desk," similar to the iOS grey background in safari when you scroll up too far. When you log out, you'll see that textured grey background again for a split second, and you see it beneath your spaces.

Thats just for the bounce effect, it doesnt have anything to do with scrolling orientation. I think when they do usability testing they will get rid of it completely, its just dumb. At the very least it will be disabled by default instead of enabled. It might not even be meant to be a feature on all devices, it could be for testing some new input device.

Cougarcat
Feb 25, 2011, 02:19 PM
Thats just for the bounce effect, it doesnt have anything to do with scrolling orientation.

But it does. Gives the illusion you are moving paper down your desk, like iOS.

I think Apple wants to keep their gestures as consistent as possible, which leaves me wondering if the reverse scrolling is only enabled by default with a trackpad/magic mouse and not a regular mouse with a scrollwheel.

nathanl1192
Feb 25, 2011, 02:19 PM
Thats just for the bounce effect, it doesnt have anything to do with scrolling orientation. I think when they do usability testing they will get rid of it completely, its just dumb. At the very least it will be disabled by default instead of enabled. It might not even be meant to be a feature on all devices, it could be for testing some new input device.

I agree. It could be like multitouch gestures on iPad running iOS 4.3. Apple say they are not going to be for consumers just yet, but for devs only to test apps for the future. Maybe what they are doing now....

Hellhammer
Feb 25, 2011, 02:23 PM
I already changed it back to normal. The scrolling system is worse in some other way as well, it is not as smooth as it used to be.

Cougarcat
Feb 25, 2011, 02:26 PM
I already changed it back to normal. The scrolling system is worse in some other way as well, it is not as smooth as it used to be.

There are a TON of new animations in Lion, and I've noticed that some of them aren't very smooth yet, iOS scrollbars included. It's a beta after all!

simsaladimbamba
Feb 25, 2011, 02:35 PM
I already changed it back to normal. The scrolling system is worse in some other way as well, it is not as smooth as it used to be.

How did you change it back?

Cougarcat
Feb 25, 2011, 02:36 PM
How did you change it back?

Trackpad prefs.

Hellhammer
Feb 25, 2011, 02:37 PM
How did you change it back?

Trackpad prefs.

Or in my case, Mouse preferences. Right there on the top.

simsaladimbamba
Feb 25, 2011, 02:42 PM
Trackpad prefs.

Or in my case, Mouse preferences. Right there on the top.

I use the trackpad of my early 2008 MacBook and this is what I see in my Trackpad Preferences (where I already looked right after the installation):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10644330/MR_Image_Hotlinks/MR_screenshots/MR_screenshots_02_2011/Screen%20Shot%202011-02-25%20at%209.39.23%20PM.png

Am I blind?

Cougarcat
Feb 25, 2011, 02:45 PM
Mine looks like this:

http://images.appleinsider.com/lion-110224-9.png

simsaladimbamba
Feb 25, 2011, 02:47 PM
Mine looks like this:

[^]

Ah, Apple does not support the older trackpads yet I suppose.
Thanks. I would leave feedback with Apple, but I guess as I am not a developer, I shouldn't.

celticpride678
Feb 25, 2011, 03:14 PM
I was thinking the same thing when I first heard the scrolling was inverted, but honestly, I got used to it in a few hours and now it's just natural for me. If you think about it, it makes more sense.

jclardy
Feb 25, 2011, 04:01 PM
When I first installed it was super weird, but now after using it for most of the day it makes sense.

Coming from OS 10.6 or Windows or any other OS it will feel weird. Coming from an iPad it makes sense.

If you think of the document as a page on your screen it makes sense as you are pushing the document up and in essence scrolling down.

It will definitely be a dividing issue when it comes out. Hopefully they leave an option in there for those who want it the old way.

iShater
Feb 25, 2011, 04:05 PM
When I first installed it was super weird, but now after using it for most of the day it makes sense.

Coming from OS 10.6 or Windows or any other OS it will feel weird. Coming from an iPad it makes sense.


So the "rest of us" are screwed? :p


If you think of the document as a page on your screen it makes sense as you are pushing the document up and in essence scrolling down.

It will definitely be a dividing issue when it comes out. Hopefully they leave an option in there for those who want it the old way.

I hope you are right.

JanFredrikB
Feb 25, 2011, 04:19 PM
I've some problems with 10.7. Anybody know if it possible to revert scrolling in 10.6?

celticpride678
Feb 25, 2011, 04:26 PM
I've some problems with 10.7. Anybody know if it possible to revert scrolling in 10.6?

Check trackpad preferences.

talmy
Feb 25, 2011, 04:59 PM
In Snow Leopard, BetterTouchTool gives an option for reverse scrolling. I suspect that when he ports to Lion unreverse will be provided.

Kongret
Feb 25, 2011, 05:37 PM
I got used to it very fast and it all seems very natural now on trackpad, but when i plug in my mouse it keeps working the same way with the scrolling wheel. Pretty annoying.

MBX
Feb 25, 2011, 05:42 PM
It's a little (annoying) feature that could most likely be reverted to the current way on os-x once Apple see's all the complaints in the next weeks during this beta.

lemonade-maker
Feb 25, 2011, 07:50 PM
Makes no diff to me. I decided to conform to the new way and it works fine.

antmarobel
Feb 25, 2011, 08:08 PM
I have to admit: It's strange!:D But I have to try till I have to get used to it:rolleyes:

Cougarcat
Feb 25, 2011, 08:23 PM
I got used to it very fast and it all seems very natural now on trackpad, but when i plug in my mouse it keeps working the same way with the scrolling wheel. Pretty annoying.

Aha! So I was right (see my post above.) This move is all about keeping gestures consistent across devices.

Steve Ballmer
Feb 25, 2011, 09:57 PM
I can't say I hate it, but I did revert to traditional scrolling rather quickly. It makes sense when one is physically manipulating the screen via touch. But it makes no sense when manipulating the screen indirectly using a mouse or trackpad.

Steve Ballmer
Feb 25, 2011, 10:02 PM
I noticed this as well! It is the same pattern as what is behind folders on iOS and on the multitasking bar.

Did you also notice that the dashboard background has been carried over from when iOS 4 was first demoed. It showed this pattern as the folder background, which was promptly replaced, but now is back again!
Yes, that Dashboard background is ugly and clashes with the other background being used. Hopefully they get rid of it and use the "canvas" background (have no idea what else to call it) for Dashboard, as it seems everything else is using it system-wide.
Thats just for the bounce effect, it doesnt have anything to do with scrolling orientation. I think when they do usability testing they will get rid of it completely, its just dumb. At the very least it will be disabled by default instead of enabled. It might not even be meant to be a feature on all devices, it could be for testing some new input device.
No, I think Apple is quite adamant about not only having it, but having it on by default. Because trackpads that lack multi-touch cannot disable the feature at all.
I already changed it back to normal. The scrolling system is worse in some other way as well, it is not as smooth as it used to be.
You're using a developer preview. The focus right now is getting major bugs fixed and features completed. Minor things like smoothing out animations will come much later.
I use the trackpad of my early 2008 MacBook and this is what I see in my Trackpad Preferences (where I already looked right after the installation):
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10644330/MR_Image_Hotlinks/MR_screenshots/MR_screenshots_02_2011/Screen%20Shot%202011-02-25%20at%209.39.23%20PM.png

Am I blind?
Trackpads that do not support multi-touch cannot revert to traditional scrolling. However, according to the known issues listed in the seed notes, it's a known issue, implying that a toggle is intended but simply wasn't ready for the released build.
I was thinking the same thing when I first heard the scrolling was inverted, but honestly, I got used to it in a few hours and now it's just natural for me. If you think about it, it makes more sense.
It makes sense when directly touching the screen. It doesn't make sense when manipulating the screen indirectly.

ipodtouch4
Feb 26, 2011, 03:21 AM
I am a fan of iOS, and a huge fan of OSX but the merging between the two doesn't seem right. Also, on all screenshots I have not seen any icon/items on the desktop. Are there any folders like in Snow Leopard available on the desktop.

Hellhammer
Feb 26, 2011, 03:26 AM
You're using a developer preview. The focus right now is getting major bugs fixed and features completed. Minor things like smoothing out animations will come much later.

I am aware of that. It's not the smoothness of scrolling which is fine but when you scroll, it does not "slide" like it used to. Like if I scroll in 10.6, I can lift my fingers and it's still "sliding". In Lion, when I lift my fingers, it stops scrolling. It's not that big deal but something I noticed immediately.

Cougarcat
Feb 26, 2011, 03:59 AM
I am aware of that. It's not the smoothness of scrolling which is fine but when you scroll, it does not "slide" like it used to. Like if I scroll in 10.6, I can lift my fingers and it's still "sliding". In Lion, when I lift my fingers, it stops scrolling. It's not that big deal but something I noticed immediately.

It sounds like you have inertia scrolling turned off. Check your trackpad prefs.

Steve Ballmer
Feb 26, 2011, 04:01 AM
I am a fan of iOS, and a huge fan of OSX but the merging between the two doesn't seem right. Also, on all screenshots I have not seen any icon/items on the desktop. Are there any folders like in Snow Leopard available on the desktop.
Where did you get the notion that iOS and Mac OS X are being merged? Lion is gaining some new features that were inspired by those in iOS, and nothing more.

And it seems that by default, only external drives show up on the Desktop. But all you have to do is hit CMD+J and show what you want, including local hard disks and network drives.

Hellhammer
Feb 26, 2011, 04:06 AM
It sounds like you have inertia scrolling turned off. Check your trackpad prefs.

It is enabled but still "lags". Looks like BetterTouchTool is causing it as disabling it made it back to normal.

roblawton
Feb 26, 2011, 04:39 AM
I think this will be easy to get used to.

Even when I use a PC at work and Mac at home, I'll just get used to using the scroll-wheel at work to scroll; Then my Magic Trackpad/MBA Trackpad to 'flick' I prefer the rubber-band scrolling/flicking anyway...

I guess I'm just used to it on my iPhone.

baryon
Feb 26, 2011, 04:46 AM
First, you can change the scrolling, and second, you can't really scroll on the trackpad with PCs so there is no "direction of scrolling" anyway, you can only use the scroll wheel of the mouse, which is very different from a trackpad or a Magic Mouse (which is basically like a mobile trackpad).