OS X 10.4 Tiger build 8A378 Seeded

[MacRumors]

MacosXrumors.com (http://www.macosxrumors.com/articles/2005/02/14/mac-os-x-tiger-build-8a378/) is reporting that only a week after build 8A369 was released, another build of Tiger has reached a limited number of developers. The site reports multiple fixed bugs in the release, but also sheds light on the existance of a dozen or so remaining issues that have yet to be resolved.

Fixed since last build:
- Plain text messages being sent as rich text, which causes messages sent from Tiger Mail to show up as attachments in other mail clients.
- Dock dragging problems.
- Dual 2 GHz and Dual 2.5 GHz G5’s with SuperDrive install problems.
- Finder crashes when previewing Sorenson 3 video or PNG files.
- Volume corruption issues with upgrade and archive installs over 10.2.x (Jaguar).
- Setup Assistant hangs after playing the movie with*upgrade installs over 10.3.x.
- Spotlight infinitely indexing after editing data in your Address Book.
- Carbon and Cocoa app window corruption problems after inactivity.
- Problems disabling .Mac Syncing.

Still need to be fixed:
- .Mac syncing of Address Book can lead to loss of contact URL’s in the Address Book.*Disable Address Book syncing**in the .Mac–>Sync preference pane for now.
- iDVD 5.x and iMovie 5.x fail to see iPhoto 5.x photos in a users iPhoto library.
- Some full-screen QuickTime trailers don’t display video.
- There are still occasional reports of blue or grey screens after installation or at login. Workaround: reboot.
- iDisk syncing may hang upon occasion.
- The .Mac Sync pref pane and the Sync menu extra are slow and don’t always agree on when syncing is happening.
- Keychain syncing may corrupt your keychain.*Other data types should work (with the exception of contacts).* Disable keychain syncing in the .Mac–>Sync preference pane for now.
- Very rarely, login, security dialog or remote access authentication may be refused.* Workaround: reboot.
- Text input other than English is not recognized in authorization dialogs.
- Xcode crashes when building Carbon bundles and frameworks.
- AppleScript applications that reference bundles need to use the bundle extension (e.g. “.app”)when referring to them.
- Text paths to aliases (e.g. “~/Desktop/”) in AppleScript are incorrect.
The site also focuses on a new option for cursor size in the Universal Access prefs pane, as well as developers being unhappy with Spotlight indexing speed.

[KC9AIC]

Great! I'll be sure to tell my ADC friend who has tiger. Hope this update brings us closer to a release date, as the fixes seem to be good.

[Darwin]

I hope that Tigers release is close by

[pdpfilms]

Woohoo! So how high do the builds usually go before 10.4 is released publicly?

[dcollierp]

Good to see that work is going forward. I can't wait to buy a Mac Mini with Tiger pre-installed.

[Mudbug]

Woohoo! So how high do the builds usually go before 10.4 is released publicly?

they go until they're done. There's no set time or number for the to reach before it's declared 'done'.

[Sharewaredemon]

hmm, some of these bugs seem pretty important (both fixed and unresolved), I hope they can iron them all out and release a well working copy of Tiger in time.

What is interesting about the developers being unhappy with indexing speeds to me is that I installed an older build of Tiger a whle back for a day, to play around, and indexing didn't take that long. About an two hours maybe. Though I have more data in video files then a whole crapload of text files so I guess it would take longer based on the number of files you have, and not the amount of space they take up. One thing that should be adressed, is that the indexing really bogs the system down when you first run Tiger. I can see this bothering people who don't understand what is going on. Though I assume that after the "short" indexing period, most users will forget about how it was slow. As the indexing usually will never bog the system down, as it continues to index on the fly from then on.

[gorkonapple]

With that laundry list of things to fix, is June too optimistic for a release? That's only 4 months. Anyway, I can't wait to see tiger. It promises alot. We'll see.

[Veldek]

I heard there are new (and enhanced) drivers for the GeForce 6800 Ultra in Tiger. Is there anyone who is able to confirm this (without breaking any NDA, of course)?

[rockandrule]

I would venture to say with the amount of problems that were fixed within this last week, June should not be too soon for a release. Given they don't encounter any larger scale problems while fixing these bugs.

[caveman_uk]

I hope that Tigers release is close by
I'd rather have a 'more polished/late' version than a 'buggy as hell/on-time' version. This version sounds quite a long way from finished. SJ's 1H '05 prediction may slip....

[Fredstar]

So is Tiger still in Alpha? As in new features are still being added?
"One new feature not reported in the seed notes is on the Universal Access preferences pane: on the Mouse tab, you can now chose the cursor size. The feature is still a bit buggy though, it looks like there is no anti-aliasing on the cursor icon and that the mouse motion is a bit jerky."
Fingers crossed that first release is ok and not rushed

[Diatribe]

So is Tiger still in Alpha? As in new features are still being added?
"One new feature not reported in the seed notes is on the Universal Access preferences pane: on the Mouse tab, you can now chose the cursor size. The feature is still a bit buggy though, it looks like there is no anti-aliasing on the cursor icon and that the mouse motion is a bit jerky."
Fingers crossed that first release is ok and not rushed

All localizations are in and complete from what I have heard. So it is in Beta.

[wrldwzrd89]

So is Tiger still in Alpha? As in new features are still being added?
"One new feature not reported in the seed notes is on the Universal Access preferences pane: on the Mouse tab, you can now chose the cursor size. The feature is still a bit buggy though, it looks like there is no anti-aliasing on the cursor icon and that the mouse motion is a bit jerky."
Fingers crossed that first release is ok and not rushed
Tiger is clearly in beta. It entered beta phase at WWDC, when it was first introduced - this was when developers outside of Apple were able to obtain pre-releases of the OS. Regular seeding of new builds has been ongoing since then, confirming the fact that Tiger is in beta-test. The earliest that Tiger could have entered alpha is as soon as Panther was released, since that's what makes sense to do if Apple works on the current release and the next release at the same time.

[cmvsm]

Looks as if its going to be a little while longer before Tiger is released due to the high buggy nature of the existing version. That's ok...Panther will be perfect in another release or so, and I'll be keeping that for a while even if Tiger is released.

[nubero]

I hope that Tigers release is close by

With this many known bugs still around (mind you that there are certainly more unknown as of now), I don't hope the release date is close by ;-)

[Wonder Boy]

im looking forward to tiger for an excuse to nuke my ibook and start over. no real reason to do so, i just like doing that every so often.

should i not being nuking my hard drive every so often?

[manu chao]

Why didn't the HD-Powerbook rumor from the same site (www.macosxrumors.com) at least get a Page 2 mention?

[iJaz]

Hmm, lots of .mac sync problems still left. I'm not surprised since the .mac syncing sometimes works so extremely poorly now. Fix it so I can get rid of that thumb drive, or so I can fill up my Shuffle with only music.

[ITR 81]

im looking forward to tiger for an excuse to nuke my ibook and start over. no real reason to do so, i just like doing that every so often.

should i not being nuking my hard drive every so often?

Same here.

Ever since the last Sec. update my iMac G4 has been having the flashing folder problem...so maybe tiger(when it comes out) will fix this issue.

I'm sortof wondering if it's iMac related since my Ti PB and G5 PM didn't have similar issues...oh well.. it still boots..but just slower.

[swissmann]

A lot of these bugs seem to be in areas that are not new to the OS. I don't understand programming and I am sure that buy adding new things to the core effects other things at the core of the OS but it sure would be nice to see the list of bugs during the entire developmental cycle being limited to the new features. The iLife suite works well together now, why not in Tiger for example. Anyway I am just hoping like many others that it gets released when it is ready and not when marketing thinks the time is right.

[billystlyes]

I thought Tiger would come out around May. When I think about it now I'm thinking late summer back to school time :( !

[iGary]

More likely WWDC, right?

But we'll see. They will need something to keep the company's momentum going until then.

Perhaps Tiger in April and Blistering-fast PowerMac G5's, which I am waiting for, at WWDC. I figure whatever they release for PM's will ship in December :D

[fatfish]

Surely the number of fixes still required can't give a reliable estimate of when tiger will go gold. Sure the more there are, the longer it likely will be, but they could take days, weeks or months.

Also, is it not likely that they will only put so many fixes in a release for testing, then it's easy to fix new problems by the process of elimination. They may be well on the way to solving remaining problems but just don't want to put too many changes out at once.

[gui_dos]

The iLife suite works well together now, why not in Tiger for example.

It seems that iMovie already supports Core Image: if you browse the
PlugIns directory in the 'iMovie HD.app' package you can find CoreImageEffects.bundle and CoreImageTransitions.bundle.

[varmit]

I see a reliease during the WWDC, but no time before this. If this is the list of bugs, and they are the last major ones, then they do seem on track to getting there. I'm sure that its some loops or something that need to be fixed, which should only take a few months. So, they have about 4 months or so to get it to final so its ready to be released.

[virividox]

common by april please

[manu chao]

Same here.

Ever since the last Sec. update my iMac G4 has been having the flashing folder problem...so maybe tiger(when it comes out) will fix this issue.

I'm sortof wondering if it's iMac related since my Ti PB and G5 PM didn't have similar issues...oh well.. it still boots..but just slower.

Did you try to go to the System Preferences, Start-up Disk, and (re-)selected your system (folder)?

[GFLPraxis]

So is Tiger still in Alpha? As in new features are still being added?
"One new feature not reported in the seed notes is on the Universal Access preferences pane: on the Mouse tab, you can now chose the cursor size. The feature is still a bit buggy though, it looks like there is no anti-aliasing on the cursor icon and that the mouse motion is a bit jerky."
Fingers crossed that first release is ok and not rushed

Tiger is in Beta.
Longhorn is still in Alpha though, and the current builds suck so bad I don't think we'll see a beta anytime soon :D

[Sonofhaig]

I'm sure they'll get rid of the bugs, but I for one won't be on line getting the premier edition of Tiger. I'll see what you guys have to say about it first. Don't get me wrong, I really want this OS, but these bugs scare the hell out of me.

[Neerazan]

It'll be done when it's done, I guess; and like many others here I would prefer it to be late than buggy.

I'll settle for Tiger at WWDC, along with an updated Mac mini, 512Mb min, maybe a blu-ray drive as a BTO? :)

Spotlight will change the way that we use our computers in a way that I think people just don't understand yet. Even with the ease of use of Panther, finding and sorting your data is still a real issue for many users, especially on shared machines...

[ebally]

Tiger is in Beta.
Longhorn is still in Alpha though, and the current builds suck so bad I don't think we'll see a beta anytime soon :D

Microsoft is set to release the first proper beta of it's next generation OS, "Longhorn". One of the new technologies to be included in this beta is "Auxilary Displays". These act similar to the second display on your cell phone, it will show battery life, WiFi signal, new emails and alerts. Remember folks, Mac OS 10.4 is the last release from Apple for 2 years, it better be worth it.

[kevinuaa]

Microsoft is set to release the first proper beta of it's next generation OS, "Longhorn". One of the new technologies to be included in this beta is "Auxilary Displays". These act similar to the second display on your cell phone, it will show battery life, WiFi signal, new emails and alerts. Remember folks, Mac OS 10.4 is the last release from Apple for 2 years, it better be worth it.

2 years? um, no. panther came out in q4 2003
and your mention of some random longhorn feature is kind of a non sequitor, yeah?

[El Duderino]

For everyone freaking out about the the first release of 10.4, doesnt Apple make sure that all the software they release is perfectly integrated and easy to use and whatnot. I havent bought my first Apple yet (waiting for next major release of the Powerbooks) but some of you people seem really paranoid about and first release of anything from Apple. Ive heard nothing but people wanting to wait for Rev. A of the next powerbooks and confirmation that 10.4 is good before they'll install it.

[puckhead193]

I'm sure they'll get rid of the bugs, but I for one won't be on line getting the premier edition of Tiger. I'll see what you guys have to say about it first. Don't get me wrong, I really want this OS, but these bugs scare the hell out of me.

Yea, i'm going to wait till school is over so if my computer crashes i won't be screwed....

Also do u think they will have a deal if you buy tiger you get ilife 05 at a lower price...?

[russed]

i'd say that is pretty good news, isnt it common for new versions being seeded more and more frequently as we get closer to it becoming gold?

[TylerL]

With the modular nature of Mac OS X, there is no such thing as an Alpha or Beta release for it.

Apple adds features or UI enhancements right to the very end of the development process...and continues past that for the point releases.
The build numbers have no bearing on old classifications.

OS X 10.0 (4K78) never went through "Kappa testing"
10.1 (5G64) never went through "Gamma" or even "Blamma" testing.

There's "done", and "not done yet" with Mac OS X.
Like someone above mentioned, the foreign localizations were just added. That's a sign that "done" is near being reached.

[Foxer]

For everyone freaking out about the the first release of 10.4, doesnt Apple make sure that all the software they release is perfectly integrated and easy to use and whatnot. I havent bought my first Apple yet (waiting for next major release of the Powerbooks) but some of you people seem really paranoid about and first release of anything from Apple. Ive heard nothing but people wanting to wait for Rev. A of the next powerbooks and confirmation that 10.4 is good before they'll install it.

I've never had a problem, and am almost ALWAYS an early adopter. Every so often, there is a bug and some people take the possibility of losing all their data very seriously. They have a different set of priorities than I do. It's just a vlaue judgment. I agree that when OSX.0 was relesaed, it was so buggy it was barely usable. 10.1 was quickly released and addressed almost everything. I beleive that Apple learned from that and makes certain that every upgrade to OSX is pretty solid.

[BornAgainMac]

I bet the developers are extremely stressed to get this out. Probably long hours and some of these bugs are more from lack of sleep and rushing to finish more than anything. I just watched that movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley" and I can just see people working for 50 hours straight at a time and having Steve pacing the hallways and picking verbal fights. Maybe it isn't like that anymore. I bet Bill Gates can hardly wait to get a copy of Tiger installed on his Powerbook.

[maya]

i'd say that is pretty good news, isnt it common for new versions being seeded more and more frequently as we get closer to it becoming gold?

Correct Indeed. :)

[wdlove]

Another Tiger build release is god news, just that much closer to gold. Being released in June sounds good to me.

[Frobozz]

With that laundry list of things to fix, is June too optimistic for a release? That's only 4 months. Anyway, I can't wait to see tiger. It promises alot. We'll see.

June should be fine. I work in a software engineering department and see both shrink wrap and online application development every day. You'd be surprised how fast some issues can be resolved, especially with the resources Apple is throwing at the issue.

[maya]

I bet the developers are extremely stressed to get this out. Probably long hours and some of these bugs are more from lack of sleep and rushing to finish more than anything. I just watched that movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley" and I can just see people working for 50 hours straight at a time and having Steve pacing the hallways and picking verbal fights. Maybe it isn't like that anymore. I bet Bill Gates can hardly wait to get a copy of Tiger installed on his Powerbook.

A March-April release is looking pretty good at this point if there are not other major problems. :)

[DavidLeblond]

Microsoft is set to release the first proper beta of it's next generation OS, "Longhorn". One of the new technologies to be included in this beta is "Auxilary Displays". These act similar to the second display on your cell phone, it will show battery life, WiFi signal, new emails and alerts. Remember folks, Mac OS 10.4 is the last release from Apple for 2 years, it better be worth it.

While not built into the OS, the PCs have had this for YEARS. Somehow I don't think that feature will be very groundbreaking. :rolleyes:

Wake me up when Microsoft releases an OS that works.

[maya]

Another Tiger build release is god news, just that much closer to gold. Being released in June sounds good to me.

Though Steve gave a H1 2005 deadline, he likes to surprise and surpass expectations of Mac users and the industry. Plan on it being released before june way before june. ;) :)

[~loserman~]

There are still occasional reports of blue or grey screens after installation or at login. Workaround: reboot.



Isnt that awesome.....
I guess Tiger is starting to put in Windows features..... :)

[maya]

While not built into the OS, the PCs have had this for YEARS. Somehow I don't think that feature will be very groundbreaking. :rolleyes:

Wake me up when Microsoft releases an OS that works.

Windows 2003. ;) :)

[maya]

June should be fine. I work in a software engineering department and see both shrink wrap and online application development every day. You'd be surprised how fast some issues can be resolved, especially with the resources Apple is throwing at the issue.

People tend to forget that on BIG PROJECTS a work day is longer then the usual 9-5. :p ;) :)

[maya]

There are still occasional reports of blue or grey screens after installation or at login. Workaround: reboot.



Isnt that awesome.....
I guess Tiger is starting to put in Windows features..... :)

Apple is just making it easier for switchers, with something familiar. :p :)

[Frobozz]

Microsoft is set to release the first proper beta of it's next generation OS, "Longhorn". One of the new technologies to be included in this beta is "Auxilary Displays". These act similar to the second display on your cell phone, it will show battery life, WiFi signal, new emails and alerts. Remember folks, Mac OS 10.4 is the last release from Apple for 2 years, it better be worth it.

You're comparing two non-similar things. A beta means nothing, since Longhorn won't be shipping until late 2006 or early 2007. In fact, their executives won't even comment on a time frame any more. So, it's entirely likely that OS X 10.5 will be released by the time Longhorn it. My old boss is in charge of Longhorn Development at Microsoft...

Also, Apple's cycle for major OS releases will average 18 months (not 24.) This changed for the first time since OS X 10.0 was released, where major revisions were 12 months apart (abnormally short.)

[Frobozz]

People tend to forget that on BIG PROJECTS a work day is longer then the usual 9-5. :p ;) :)

Amen!

People work all sorts of crazy hours. They work in shifts. They work 18 hour days. Some days they show up early and others late. It's all about the end goal and, depending on the scope of the issue, I easily expect Apple to meet a June deadline.

Software OS's are exceedingly complex but Apple has the best software engineers in the world!

[nagromme]

I'm sure they'll get rid of the bugs, but I for one won't be on line getting the premier edition of Tiger. I'll see what you guys have to say about it first. Don't get me wrong, I really want this OS, but these bugs scare the hell out of me.

And there's the danger of rumors and broken NDAs :rolleyes:

If there weren't known holes, it would have shipped! That's what beta testing is about. Of course there are bugs.

As for Longhorn... I'm glad there's SOMETHING left in their plans :) I really wish Apple laptops had a way to check the battery without looking at the screen :rolleyes:

[nagromme]

Also, Apple's cycle for major OS releases will average 18 months (not 24.) This changed for the first time since OS X 10.0 was released, where major revisions were 12 months apart (abnormally short.)
Nice Shadow of the Beast avatar :)

I don't think Apple has committed to an exact future schedule of 18 months--just that it will be a longer time after Tiger. (But Apple can ship multiple free releases after Tiger without violating that expectation.)

To set the record straight on OS X schedules:

Since OS X 10.0 was released in early 2001, there have only been TWO paid upgrades of OS X ever: 10.2 and 10.3 (remember: 10.1 was free). The time before these paid versions was 17 months and 14 months. Tiger will be at 17 months next month.

10.0 Cheeta
...17 months (includes free 10.1 upgrade 11 months before Jaguar)...
10.2 Jaguar (first paid upgrade)
...14 months...
10.3 Panther (second paid upgrade)
....17 months in March, probably longer...
Tiger
....even longer before the next one...

[appletalk]

As for Longhorn... I'm glad there's SOMETHING left in their plans :) I really wish Apple laptops had a way to check the battery without looking at the screen :rolleyes:

My powerbook is running and plugged into a few different things right now, but I am almost positive that the battery can be checked without the screen. You do this by pressing the button on the battery which gives you a light readout on the charge status of the battery.

Powerbooks have had this feature since way way back... :)

[rendezvouscp]

There are still occasional reports of blue or grey screens after installation or at login. Workaround: reboot.



Isnt that awesome.....
I guess Tiger is starting to put in Windows features..... :)

You have to understand that they are still working on a lot of these bugs. Things come up, and these builds represent what they have. There's an incredible amount of code to look at to find the source of these sorts of problems, especially if it's machine dependent. In the end, they'll figure things out.
-Chase

[joeboy_45101]

Looks as if its going to be a little while longer before Tiger is released due to the high buggy nature of the existing version. That's ok...Panther will be perfect in another release or so, and I'll be keeping that for a while even if Tiger is released.

Couldn't agree with you more. I know that Apple has 1,000 engineers just working on it's iLife applications, so I can only imagine how many engineers they've got working to make 10.4 the best it can be. Right now, I'm satisfied with "Panther", although I think 10.3.8 has hindered the performance of my system.

[rendezvouscp]

I really wish Apple laptops had a way to check the battery without looking at the screen :rolleyes:

I think you're joking here, but just to make sure: you can look at the battery on a PowerBook and see how much charge by the 25%, it has.

EDIT: appletalk beat me to the punch.
-Chase

[iJaz]

I think you're joking here, but just to make sure: you can look at the battery on a PowerBook and see how much charge by the 25%, it has.

EDIT: appletalk beat me to the punch.
-Chase
My girlfriend taught me that yesterday. I've had my PowerBook for more than 2 years... :eek:

[JonMaker]

As for Longhorn... I'm glad there's SOMETHING left in their plans :) I really wish Apple laptops had a way to check the battery without looking at the screen :rolleyes:

Ever noticed the LEDs on the battery? :eek:

See? Apple has already thought of it.

Edit: I guess I'm not the first to say so... :confused:

[sebisworld]

Ever noticed the LEDs on the battery? :eek:

See? Apple has already thought of it.

And they thought it through. You don't need to put the battery in your Powerbook to see its status.

[ebally]

2 years? um, no. panther came out in q4 2003
and your mention of some random longhorn feature is kind of a non sequitor, yeah?

Please read properly before making comments. I said Mac OS 10.4 is the LAST release from Apple FOR 2 years. :rolleyes:

[~loserman~]

You have to understand that they are still working on a lot of these bugs. Things come up, and these builds represent what they have. There's an incredible amount of code to look at to find the source of these sorts of problems, especially if it's machine dependent. In the end, they'll figure things out.
-Chase

Lighten up man... :)

[~loserman~]

Apple is just making it easier for switchers, with something familiar. :p :)

I wish I would have said that..... hehe :)

[jncrow]

Sure looking forward to tiger. Think I want to get it by getting a mac mini...so her is for tiger preinstalled on mac mini with 512 memory.

[gorkonapple]

I don't WANT the developers to put in 18 hour days. I am satisfied with waiting until January '06 for it to be done. Frankly, Panther is great now. I don't see a March or April Release. Earliest would be June, but like I said, I woudl rather wait. Why? Because I want Tiger to be RIGHT and working as well as it can out of the box. I don't want problems and I am patient enought to wait for it to AVOID those problems. That said, I will likely backup my iPhoto library and iTunes as well onto my external USB drive and do a complete clean install just to get rid of the flotsam on my hard disk. That and just in case some of my stuff from Fink gets BROKEN! :D It would also be a good time to clean up the junk from my experiment with Darwin Ports and completely get rid of anything but the stuff Fink installs in /sw. I like the way Fink works like that and I am sticking with them.

[rdowns]

Another Tiger build release is god news, just that much closer to gold. Being released in June sounds good to me.

I often wondered if god used Mac OS.

[~loserman~]

Though Steve gave a H1 2005 deadline, he likes to surprise and surpass expectations of Mac users and the industry. Plan on it being released before june way before june. ;) :)

I really believe Tiger will release late April to early May...
Although I think it will be fairly buggy when it releases and will have at least 4 updates by years end.

[rendezvouscp]

Lighten up man... :)

Hey, sorry if I came off too strong. I really didn't mean to, just wanted to make a point. Next time I'll be softer :o.
-Chase

[rendezvouscp]

I often wondered if god used Mac OS.

Of course Steve Jobs uses the Mac OS! Naw, I'm joking here (see, I'm already being softer :p).
-Chase

[JeffTL]

im looking forward to tiger for an excuse to nuke my ibook and start over. no real reason to do so, i just like doing that every so often.

should i not being nuking my hard drive every so often?

I like to nuke my iBook at least annually, and every 1-2 years for my Windows XP desktop (which I will sometime well down the road replace with a Mac, maybe a mini if the LCD is still in good shape by then). I haven't nuked the iMac yet but it'll probably be on a 2-year nuke (unless I get Tiger, in which case I'll nuke it on install).

[Dont Hurt Me]

Apple will want a newer G5 system to show Tiger. My guess is the new Powermac update along with Tiger will show in Late March/April

[~loserman~]

Frankly, Panther is great now.

I think panther is very good for the desktop....but the server version is a piece of junk. We have had nothing but problems with it and Apples responce to almost every problem we have reminds me of MICROSOFT....
i.e. It will be fixed in TIGER.
I've heard those same 6 words at least 50 times.

[Twinkie]

Something tells me that the people dying for Apple to push Tiger out the door ASAP are the same people who try to be first on the "M$ LOL THEY DON'T TEST THEIR SOFTWARE!!!1!" bandwagon whenever there's a service pack or news article about Longhorn.

[sbb155]

Why do we have to PAY for jag, panther and tiger?
They are all 10.XX!!!
We don't pay for Win XP SP1 or SP2 after buying the original.
I hate this aspect of having to "buy" the upgraded OS, but I suppose it is a good business decision for apple....In the end, it is a company that wants to make money... guess I can't blame them...

No doubt though, I will not get a mini or PB or PM until tiger is out... Hate to pay $129 for something I can get free in a month or two... But the wait... it is killing me...

[rendezvouscp]

Why do we have to PAY for jag, panther and tiger?
They are all 10.XX!!!

Because they are major upgrades that include hundreds of new features! They've just kept the 10.xx for brand concern.
-Chase

[~loserman~]

Why do we have to PAY for jag, panther and tiger?
They are all 10.XX!!!
We don't pay for Win XP SP1 or SP2 after buying the original.
I hate this aspect of having to "buy" the upgraded OS, but I suppose it is a good business decision for apple....In the end, it is a company that wants to make money... guess I can't blame them...

No doubt though, I will not get a mini or PB or PM until tiger is out... Hate to pay $129 for something I can get free in a month or two... But the wait... it is killing me...

Sorry but your analogy is wrong...
We did have to pay for
Win95
Win95 OS release 2
Win98
Win98 second edition
Windows Me

What you are failing to understand is that in the UNIX world Major OS releases are usually x.x releases whereas service pack updates are
x.x.x updates. or even x.x.x.x updates

[daveL]

Well, it's not in my ADC (Select) download, so this isn't general seed. I think there's quite a bit of work left to do on Tiger.

[~loserman~]

Well, it's not in my ADC (Select) download, so this isn't general seed. I think there's quite a bit of work left to do on Tiger.

hehe I have it.
And yes you are right there is still alot of work to be done

[grabberslasher]

They got it all wrong. 8a378 isn't released to developers at all. It's released to seed members on Appleseed, who have to literally sign an NDA and are under strict confidentiality orders.

:mad:

Seems like Appleseed has a leak...

[~loserman~]

They got it all wrong. 8a378 isn't released to developers at all. It's released to seed members on Appleseed, who have to literally sign an NDA and are under strict confidentiality orders.

:mad:

Seems like Appleseed has a leak...

You are absolutely correct.... It is a seed release.

but developer members are also bound by NDA... read the agreement

[Bozola]

Reading the list of bugs.. I think this..

Gosh.. it is REALLY hard forApple to make it REALLY easy for us.

:-)

[Windowlicker]

Tiger is in Beta.
Longhorn is still in Alpha though, and the current builds suck so bad I don't think we'll see a beta anytime soon :D

I just keep wondering what's the point of the whole longhorn anymore when all the stuff they have been hyping aren't there anymore :P it's more like XP SP3 now :P Then again, I'm no Windows expert, so I might be missing something.

[Windowlicker]

Yea, i'm going to wait till school is over so if my computer crashes i won't be screwed....

aw c'mon! the percentage of people getting in trouble with major upgrades is probably something like 0.5%! That's not much. Your computer won't die because of a system upgrade ffs!

[virus1]

Wake me up when Microsoft releases an OS that works.
Rest in peace...

[Earendil]

I've seen a few "Those are major bugs! This will take a lot longer to get out the door!!" comments. It should be pointed out that the severity of the bug doesn't relate to how hard or easy it will be to fix.
A bug that trashes your hard drive, grows an AI, and takes over the world may be a very simple fix (assuming you fix it before it takes over the world). While a bug that causes an unwarranted beep in 2% of the programs, on 2% of the machines, could take forever to pinpoint.

Ask any program how many lines of code it takes to bring a program to it's knees, and how changing a single character can often times fix it ;)
In my limited experience while learning C++, it is FAR easier to pinpoint larger issues with a program, because those are the ones you're used to dealing with :rolleyes:
It's the damn little nitpicky ones that make no sense at all, and the ones you spend forever and a day past when HW is due trying to fix :cool: :D

So just because Apple has some "Major" bugs to work out, doesn't mean there isn't a programer fixing it with literally his single hand in 5 minutes.

~Tyler

[SiliconAddict]

Tiger is in Beta.
Longhorn is still in Alpha though, and the current builds suck so bad I don't think we'll see a beta anytime soon :D


June.

[~loserman~]

I've seen a few "Those are major bugs! This will take a lot longer to get out the door!!" comments. It should be pointed out that the severity of the bug doesn't relate to how hard or easy it will be to fix.
A bug that trashes your hard drive, grows an AI, and takes over the world may be a very simple fix (assuming you fix it before it takes over the world). While a bug that causes an unwarranted beep in 2% of the programs, on 2% of the machines, could take forever to pinpoint.

Ask any program how many lines of code it takes to bring a program to it's knees, and how changing a single character can often times fix it ;)
In my limited experience while learning C++, it is FAR easier to pinpoint larger issues with a program, because those are the ones you're used to dealing with :rolleyes:
It's the damn little nitpicky ones that make no sense at all, and the ones you spend forever and a day past when HW is due trying to fix :cool: :D

So just because Apple has some "Major" bugs to work out, doesn't mean there isn't a programer fixing it with literally his single hand in 5 minutes.

~Tyler

Exactly....
here is an example of one in Panther...

netstat -r

netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
seg fault.

Apple doesnt even plan on ever fixing this under Panther. We were told that they wont fix it until Tiger.

[SiliconAddict]

As for Longhorn... I'm glad there's SOMETHING left in their plans :) I really wish Apple laptops had a way to check the battery without looking at the screen :rolleyes:



You guys are picking on the poster for no reason. He gave the most basic example of what that feature can do. Potentially it can do anything a programmer wanted. Example. The LCD is on the back of the lapotp lid. It displays a list of e-mail that haven't been read yet. Potientially the system could wake up. Look for a WIFI network. Attempt to download your mail once every few hours. Then go back to sleep. So the LCD could actually update on the fly. Also battery gadges are never very accurate. Tieing the hardware into the software will allow more accurate gadges. So when it says there is 1:26 minutes it means it. From what I've read, and I could be wrong, there is going to be an API link to this screen so developers can add to it.
Don't **** on an idea because the initial description was bad.

[maya]

Exactly....
here is an example of one in Panther...

netstat -r

netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
seg fault.

Apple doesnt even plan on ever fixing this under Panther. We were told that they wont fix it until Tiger.

Maybe Apple is trying to say is that Tiger is so close to release that there is no point to fix it in Panther as there are multiple people just waiting to upgrade due to they research. ;) :)

Its all about Marketing. ;) :)

[SiliconAddict]

aw c'mon! the percentage of people getting in trouble with major upgrades is probably something like 0.5%! That's not much. Your computer won't die because of a system upgrade ffs!

Tell that to the people who used filevault in Panther and had "issues".

[maya]

You guys are picking on the poster for no reason. He gave the most basic example of what that feature can do. Potentially it can do anything a programmer wanted. Example. The LCD is on the back of the lapotp lid. It displays a list of e-mail that haven't been read yet. Potientially the system could wake up. Look for a WIFI network. Attempt to download your mail once every few hours. Then go back to sleep. So the LCD could actually update on the fly. Also battery gadges are never very accurate. Tieing the hardware into the software will allow more accurate gadges. So when it says there is 1:26 minutes it means it. From what I've read, and I could be wrong, there is going to be an API link to this screen so developers can add to it.
Don't **** on an idea because the initial description was bad.

Honestly I don't see why anyone would remove they notebook from its case just to find a WiFi signal. It sound kinda retarded that you hold your notebook in both hands roaming around the store just to find a prime signal spot. Plus who really cares to remove they notebook to even check they email status. If you want something of the sort buy a blackberry or palm/mobile.

Its sounds like a tacky idea by M$, trying to make a notebook with integrated PIM features on the lid of a lcd. An external lcd remote might work better. Still kinda pointless. :)

There are already notebooks on the market that have LED for WiFi, etc...look at SONY for one. ;) :)

[maya]

Tell that to the people who used filevault in Panther and had "issues".

FileVault and external FW 400 drive, that was an embarrassment to Panther and Apple. :p :)

[nagromme]

I think you're joking here, but just to make sure: you can look at the battery on a PowerBook and see how much charge by the 25%, it has.

Sorry, yes, that was humor :) And MY PowerBook shows 20% increments... not to brag ;)


Why do we have to PAY for jag, panther and tiger?
They are all 10.XX!!!
Because they are NOT dot releases in the way some companies use them--they are major releases. Panther is equivalent to Max OS 13 and Tiger is equivalent to Mac OS 14. But "X" is a nice logo and good branding, so Apple uses a dot when another company might not.

Do you care more about features and the amount of improvement you get, or do you care more about the number?

Micrsosoft doesn't use standard X.X version numbering either. After 3.0 they started going with names.

You're right though to wait until Tiger before buying, if you possibly can!

[Stewie]

I just hope that they get iSync fixed. Specifically MirrorAgent. It the biggest POS app in Panther. It is constantly gives me trouble and freezing my PowerBook. It has gotten to the point were I have renamed the MirrorAgent.app so that it can not load. Please for the love of [insert deity of choice] fix it, Apple!

[~loserman~]

Maybe Apple is trying to say is that Tiger is so close to release that there is no point to fix it in Panther as there are multiple people just waiting to upgrade due to they research. ;) :)

Its all about Marketing. ;) :)

Nope.... Good try though...
We have almost daily discussions with Apple, specifically on the status of both Panther and Tiger and the suitability of either for our problems.
And Apple is nowhere near suggesting that Tiger is anywhere close to..
A. being released
B. being stable enough for us to try on our systems.

I can assure you that If Apple thought Tiger was close enough to be stable for us they would come to or site and install it themselves.

[nagromme]

Don't **** on an idea because the initial description was bad.
No obscene acts intended :) I for one was joking. (About the specific feature described--but serious about implying that Longhorn has been losing features.) Can't vouch for others.

[maya]

Nope.... Good try though...
We have almost daily discussions with Apple, specifically on the status of both Panther and Tiger and the suitability of either for our problems.
And Apple is nowhere near suggesting that Tiger is anywhere close to..
A. being released
B. being stable enough for us to try on our systems.

I can assure you that If Apple thought Tiger was close enough to be stable for us they would come to or site and install it themselves.

The Apple Tech's are on they way*.... ;) :)



*its a little humour, to lighten up this Monday work day. :)

[maya]

No obscene acts intended :) I for one was joking. (About the specific feature described--but serious about implying that Longhorn has been losing features.) Can't vouch for others.

Now you know why they call it LongHorn, its because its taking a Long time to release and they market share will Horned in on by the time its released. ;) :)



Okay its not that great of a joke. :o :)

[~loserman~]

The Apple Tech's are on they way*.... ;) :)



*its a little humour, to lighten up this Monday work day. :)

Well that will be a first. We have never had any Apple techs here, but We have had plenty of their Engineers

It all may be moot for us anyway.... because we are likely going to switch to linux

[maya]

Well that will be a first. We have never had any Apple techs here, but We have had plenty of their Engineers

Apple has sent you they junior engineers, they senior engineers are trying to fit a G5 into the PowerBook. ;) :)

[SiliconAddict]

Why do we have to PAY for jag, panther and tiger?
They are all 10.XX!!!
We don't pay for Win XP SP1 or SP2 after buying the original.
I hate this aspect of having to "buy" the upgraded OS, but I suppose it is a good business decision for apple....In the end, it is a company that wants to make money... guess I can't blame them...

No doubt though, I will not get a mini or PB or PM until tiger is out... Hate to pay $129 for something I can get free in a month or two... But the wait... it is killing me...


Dude you do know what version numbers Windows 2000, XP, and 2003 are right?
http://home.comcast.net/~jonnormand/WindowsVersions.jpg

I think 2003 is listed as .3

MS simply pulls a fast one by naming their OS's instead of telling you the version number. Oooo its Windows 98. Windows ME. Windows 2000. Windows XP. :rolleyes:

[~loserman~]

Apple has sent you they junior engineers, they senior engineers are trying to fit a G5 into the PowerBook. ;) :)

Well again not quite...
We have had plenty of their senior guys. And they are usually escorted by a couple handfuls of VP's

[~loserman~]

Dude you do know what version numbers Windows 2000, XP, and 2003 are right?
http://home.comcast.net/~jonnormand/WindowsVersions.jpg

I think 2003 is listed as .3

MS simply pulls a fast one by naming their OS's instead of telling you the version number. Oooo its Windows 98. Windows ME. Windows 2000. Windows XP. :rolleyes:

Excellent Post

[Windowlicker]

Tell that to the people who used filevault in Panther and had "issues".

Well, you have a point there. Maybe I should've put my lines something like this: "about 0.5% of the users who do not use FW-drives and filevault".

[rikers_mailbox]

Dude you do know what version numbers Windows 2000, XP, and 2003 are right?
http://home.comcast.net/~jonnormand/WindowsVersions.jpg

I think 2003 is listed as .3

MS simply pulls a fast one by naming their OS's instead of telling you the version number. Oooo its Windows 98. Windows ME. Windows 2000. Windows XP. :rolleyes:

WOW! 31+ days of uptime on a PC?! Is that even possible? :p

[SiliconAddict]

WOW! 31+ days of uptime on a PC?! Is that even possible? :p

I should take a screen shot of my home server running 2003. I last rebooted it in September to install a SCSI card.

[nagromme]

Dude you do know what version numbers Windows 2000, XP, and 2003 are right?
There you go :D

[oingoboingo]

Exactly....
here is an example of one in Panther...

netstat -r

netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
netstat: kvm_read: Bad address
seg fault.

Apple doesnt even plan on ever fixing this under Panther. We were told that they wont fix it until Tiger.

netstat -r works fine on my PowerMac G5 running 10.3.8. What version are you running?

[sw1tcher]

WOW! 31+ days of uptime on a PC?! Is that even possible? :p

My thoughts exactly.

[sw1tcher]

Hoping for an April release for Tiger. Decided to wait till Tiger comes out before getting my 12" PBook.

[wrldwzrd89]

I'm in no hurry to buy a new Mac. I'll buy Tiger the day it's released. At the rate I'm going, a new Mac I buy will definitely have Mac OS X 10.4 "Tiger" preinstalled, and may even have Mac OS X 10.5 "???" preinstalled (Apple hasn't announced a code name for Mac OS X 10.5 yet).

[gopher]

Developers don’t seem to be very happy with the current Spotlight development status, they find that the initial indexing is way too long, it may take a few days to index a large amount of data, no matter how fast your Mac is. The indexing is taking a lot of system ressources as well and makes the whole configuration quite slow.

When will Apple stop the whole notion that Indexing is necessary? Ever since Sherlock was the file search engine they have been using indexing to index the content of files. There is a lone function in Unix which requires no indexing, and if properly utilized can really speed up Spotlight. It is integrated into the search engine built-in to the webpage editor by barebones.com called BBEdit, and is a real boon to searching for files throughout a file system. Searching an indexed file may take hours if you take the time to index files, where as this function takes a few seconds. What is this holy grail of search utilities?

GREP.

[WM.]

Couldn't agree with you more. I know that Apple has 1,000 engineers just working on it's iLife applications, so I can only imagine how many engineers they've got working to make 10.4 the best it can be.
Actually, that 1,000 number was for the the entire applications division. Here's the relevant paragraph from the Fortune article:

So Apple plunged into the OS X applications business. It bought a languishing project from web software company Macromedia, and in less than a year turned out two programs that capitalized on the iMac's ability to connect to digital camcorders: a video-editing program for professionals called Final Cut Pro and a simplified version for consumers called iMovie. Apple's Applications Software Division, which sprang from the project to become what is now a 1,000-engineer-strong group, has been on a roll ever since.
So those 1,000 people work on iLife, iWork, FCP, FCE, DVD SP, Motion, Shake, Logic, Remote Desktop...

The number of people in the OS division appears to be about the same. Fortune mentions that 1,000 people worked full-time on 10.0, and I've seen that number mentioned elsewhere. Also, last time I checked, Apple spent roughly the same amount on applications and OS R&D--about $120 million each, every year--so it's fairly safe to conclude that the number of people in each division is about the same.

Apple's hardware R&D budget, by the way, is roughly the same as the software budget (~$250 million a year).

FWIW
WM

[drlunanerd]

Though Steve gave a H1 2005 deadline, he likes to surprise and surpass expectations of Mac users and the industry. Plan on it being released before june way before june. ;) :)

Like 3GHz PowerMacs? :rolleyes:

[SiliconAddict]

My thoughts exactly.


Yes it’s possible.

http://home.comcast.net/~jonnormand/SvrUptime.jpg

OK. So I was wrong. I thought it was Sept that I did the upgrade. It was Oct. :p And I was wrong about Server 2003. Its listed as Windows 5.2 Which makes me wonder what Longshot is going to be? 5.3?

At any rate. Getting WAY off topic there.

Tiger builds. I personally wish Steve didn't put such a tight deadline. Putting pressure on developers is not a good thing IMHO. It causes stress and stress can cause mistakes. It would have been better to say by the end of '05. I mean at best the only OS Microsoft is going to have in place is a second edition of XP. (Right now its called Windows XP Reloaded. :rolleyes: ) So its not as if there is any major pressure to get it done NOW. *shrugs*

[brentonbrenton]

Tiger is in Beta.
Longhorn is still in Alpha though, and the current builds suck so bad I don't think we'll see a beta anytime soon :D

That would be because everyone at the microsoft campus are just twiddling their thumbs mostly, waiting for tiger to release so they can then put the lcds in the photocopier and begin ripping it off for themselves.

[chevyorange]

No doubt though, I will not get a mini or PB or PM until tiger is out... Hate to pay $129 for something I can get free in a month or two... But the wait... it is killing me...

You answered your own question!

:)

[bathysphere]

Like 3GHz PowerMacs? :rolleyes:
hahaha BURN.
just kidding. kind of...
since when has apple actually surpassed expectations, especially on product releases? all i can think of in recent memory are the non-existant 3ghz g5 powermacs, the delayed releases of the existing powermac models, the delayed g5 imacs, shortages of this or that product...

[ASP272]

For some reason, I have a bad feeling about Tiger. Moving to the 64 bit processing seems to be an opening for a lot of trouble. Normally, I'm not a pessimistic person at all, ESPECIALLY when it comes to Apple products. Just looking at the list of strange problems still left with Tiger makes me wonder what kind of strange problems are going to arise when it's released to the public. If I invest in Tiger, I'll wait until it's 10.4.5 at least. Otherwise, I'll skip in and wait for the next big cat. I like Panther a lot (though it doesn't have those cute little widgets).

[LimitedEdition]

When will Apple stop the whole notion that Indexing is necessary? What is this holy grail of search utilities?
GREP.

Grep will take a lot longer to find things than Spotlight. Just think if you had to read every line of a book to find something instead of just looking in the index. It's the same principle.

[maya]

Like 3GHz PowerMacs? :rolleyes:

Go ahead bitch at IBM for that one. ;) :p :)

[maya]

hahaha BURN.
just kidding. kind of...
since when has apple actually surpassed expectations, especially on product releases? all i can think of in recent memory are the non-existant 3ghz g5 powermacs, the delayed releases of the existing powermac models, the delayed g5 imacs, shortages of this or that product...


iMac G3, iPod, iPod for Windows, iTMS, iTMS for Windows, PMG5, iMac G5, iPod mini, 17" PB (when released), etc.... You do not only look at the hardware aspect of it, you look at the whole. ;) :)

Forgot 10.2, 10.3, and now 10.4, care to rethink your input. :rolleyes: :p ;) :)

[bathysphere]

iMac G3, iPod, iPod for Windows, iTMS, iTMS for Windows, PMG5, iMac G5, iPod mini, 17" PB (when released), etc.... You do not only look at the hardware aspect of it, you look at the whole. ;) :)

Forgot 10.2, 10.3, and now 10.4, care to rethink your input. :rolleyes: :p ;) :)
no.
while all this stuff is great, they didn't really surpass or defy expectations. in most all these cases you list, they fell short in some fundamental way or another. and actually, in about 5 out of the 9 examples you list, they fell short of shipping expectations specifically (in addition to things like horrible graphics card, much slower clock speed than previously promised, price, and so on).
anyway, tiger looks nice, i definitely want it sooner than later, though i definitely want a relatively bug free product.

[httpd]

WOW! 31+ days of uptime on a PC?! Is that even possible? :p

But if you have more then 31 days uptime on a windows system you have missed some important updates. But then again it depends on what and how you use the system if it matters or not. Almost the same goes for 10.3 but the updates are not as necessary in a security point of view for the normal user.

[matticus008]

WOW! 31+ days of uptime on a PC?! Is that even possible? :p

Sure it is. I've got a server that runs backup that hasn't been rebooted since July. I've got a web server that had almost 8 months uptime, but had to be rebooted for an OS upgrade and has been running for about 60 days since then. If you take care of your computer and invest in proper hardware, you can get excellent, lasting performance out of the machines. Even if they run Windows.

[matticus008]

But if you have more then 31 days uptime on a windows system you have missed some important updates. But then again it depends on what and how you use the system if it matters or not. Almost the same goes for 10.3 but the updates are not as necessary in a security point of view for the normal user.

Windows updates, as frequent as they are, rarely require a full system reboot, especially for enterprise-grade software. Major service packs, yes, but I can't think of any critical update in recent history that required a reboot of my Windows 2003 server (needed because of Access). I would remember, because when you restart Windows 2003, you have to enter a reason for the reboot. You can't just restart the system on a whim. So the log would tell me what I was doing.

[httpd]

Windows updates, as frequent as they are, rarely require a full system reboot, especially for enterprise-grade software. Major service packs, yes, but I can't think of any critical update in recent history that required a reboot of my Windows 2003 server (needed because of Access). I would remember, because when you restart Windows 2003, you have to enter a reason for the reboot. You can't just restart the system on a whim. So the log would tell me what I was doing.

I do not know about W2003 server since we do not have one. But for W2K server/Pro and XP, not having to reboot after a update is very rare. I do not think it is a mayor issue since most updates are not security fixes concerning servers.

[JFreak]

Tiger is clearly in beta. It entered beta phase at WWDC, when it was first introduced

yes and no. tiger is clearly in beta stage NOW, but it was still at alpha stage last year. the difference between alpha and beta is "feature freeze", which they did in january keynote.

[JFreak]

Tiger is in Beta. Longhorn is still in Alpha though, and the current builds suck so bad I don't think we'll see a beta anytime soon :D

i believe we see longhorn shipping before powerbook G5 :D :D :D :D :D

[wrldwzrd89]

yes and no. tiger is clearly in beta stage NOW, but it was still at alpha stage last year. the difference between alpha and beta is "feature freeze", which they did in january keynote.
I don't think any of us know exactly, to be honest. We're all just making our best guess as to what Apple considers alpha and beta.

[JFreak]

We're all just making our best guess as to what Apple considers alpha and beta.

all sofware companies [granted, apple is primarily a hardware company, but makes good software too, so is also a quality software company] consider "alpha" software being such software that is getting new features, "beta" software being such software that has its features implemented but still under development, and a "release candidate" software being such version of beta software that is only being changed if there is a real "showstopper" bug found; and then, the release candidate is being declared a released software if no showstoppers are found within defined timeframe. such release candidate is what apple calls "gold".

[Littleodie914]

I've got a question that I've been wondering about for a while now... When Apple releases the new Tiger seeds, do the developers get them from Apple's ADC website, or do they show up in Software Update? Strange question, I know, but my friend and I were wondering how Apple would approach releasing such large yet frequent updates.

[dicklacara]

You are absolutely correct.... It is a seed release.

but developer members are also bound by NDA... read the agreement

Now, that is interesting....

Seed releases go to a different audience, A select group of end users, I think.

As opposed to Developer releases that go to programmers.

I have no knowledge, but:
Mar 22 - Announce
Mar 28 - Available

Just feels right.

[dicklacara]

Maybe Apple is trying to say is that Tiger is so close to release that there is no point to fix it in Panther as there are multiple people just waiting to upgrade due to they research. ;) :)

Its all about Marketing. ;) :)

Apple continues to release updates & fixes to Panther and probably will do so for some time after Tiger is released.

I suspect that there are several separate teams of developers, each working an OS X release:

-- Panther Team
-- Tiger Team
-- Lion Team

The choice to fix a bug in a current release, when a new release is pending is often evaluated on:

-- how many users does the bug affect
-- how critical is the bug (is there a workauound)
-- how will the fix affect the rest of the users
-- how difficult is the bug to fix
-- is the bug already fixed (or made moot) in the pending release
-- How soon will the pending release be available.

There are certain classes of bugs that affect many conponents of the software... they are difficult, to co-ordinate, implement, test, release and install.

These bugs may require significant changes in the architecture. It is quite normal to defer these bugs to a new release-- in fact, they can be one of the reasons for a new release.

It is a tradeoff.

[dicklacara]

When will Apple stop the whole notion that Indexing is necessary? Ever since Sherlock was the file search engine they have been using indexing to index the content of files. There is a lone function in Unix which requires no indexing, and if properly utilized can really speed up Spotlight. It is integrated into the search engine built-in to the webpage editor by barebones.com called BBEdit, and is a real boon to searching for files throughout a file system. Searching an indexed file may take hours if you take the time to index files, where as this function takes a few seconds. What is this holy grail of search utilities?

GREP.

What about metadata, such as camera settings on image files?

What about content enbedded in a proprietary file format?

[ProfSBrown]

When will Apple stop the whole notion that Indexing is necessary? Ever since Sherlock was the file search engine they have been using indexing to index the content of files. There is a lone function in Unix which requires no indexing, and if properly utilized can really speed up Spotlight. It is integrated into the search engine built-in to the webpage editor by barebones.com called BBEdit, and is a real boon to searching for files throughout a file system. Searching an indexed file may take hours if you take the time to index files, where as this function takes a few seconds. What is this holy grail of search utilities?

GREP.

Are you serious?

[SiliconAddict]

But if you have more then 31 days uptime on a windows system you have missed some important updates. But then again it depends on what and how you use the system if it matters or not. Almost the same goes for 10.3 but the updates are not as necessary in a security point of view for the normal user.

Here is the secret about Windows updates. First and foremost most updates pertain to vulnerabilities that actively need to be taken advantage of in the GUI. So we are talking a fault in direct X or in one of Windows built in apps or IE. From a server standpoint this means exactly nothing. Most people who are running a server aren't doing a whole heck of a lot from the GUI so it’s a moot point.
From a desktop standpoint the last dozen or so vulnerabilities in Windows pertain to IE. I don't use IE. I know there are some underlying parts of Windows that use IE whether I like it or not but its not hat big of a deal for a reason I will get into in a minute.

The other update half pertains to externally facing vulnerabilities. Those that can be exploited by worms and such. A good firewall makes such patches less critical. They still need to be patched but its not a NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW thing. Finally there is this: Tiny Firewall (http://www.tinysoftware.com/home/tiny2?s=5375286922904341490A0&&pg=content05&an=tf6_home) This is the same software the air force uses on their clients. The extent to which you can lock down a system, beyond a simple firewall, is insane. I have every file on my computer signed and every process monitored by TF. A registry entry can’t change without my say so and I’ve defined which hives are allowed to be altered and which need the equivalent of root access. Patches are still an important part of security but not nearly as important with an appropriately configured box. *shrugs*

[SiliconAddict]

Windows updates, as frequent as they are, rarely require a full system reboot, especially for enterprise-grade software. Major service packs, yes, but I can't think of any critical update in recent history that required a reboot of my Windows 2003 server (needed because of Access). I would remember, because when you restart Windows 2003, you have to enter a reason for the reboot. You can't just restart the system on a whim. So the log would tell me what I was doing.

Windows 2003 has an advanced enough architecture to allow updates that don’t require reboots. Windows 2000 and Windows XP (Pre SP2.) are another matter entirely. SP2 has done a fine job at implementing some of the tech found in 2003 to cut down on reboots but simply: you can’t get away from the reboot without a massive overhaul to the OS. Its going to be interesting to see if Longshot can do this.

[AidenShaw]

Windows 2003 has an advanced enough architecture to allow updates that don’t require reboots. Windows 2000 and Windows XP (Pre SP2.) are another matter entirely.

It depends on the developer as well. Windows has unloadable drivers, so that it is possible to add or replace device drivers without a reboot.

Most consumer products aren't engineered to allow this - it just isn't worth the added work to add the features to allow unloading to the driver.

Server-class hardware, though, is another matter.

On many of my Windows servers, I can do some or all of the following without shutting down or rebooting:


add additional memory (add DIMMs) to the system
remove and replace failed memory DIMMs (http://h18004.www1.hp.com/products/servers/proliantdl740/benefits.html#1)
remove PCI-X cards and replace them
replace Fibre Channel or SCSI cards and/or drivers
replace NICs and drivers
add internal disk drives
replace failed disk drives
replace failed fans
replace failed power supplies


My longest running Windows servers were last rebooted on 31 July 2004....


ps: You post was well-written until you used the cutesy name for Longhorn....

[impierced]

yes and no. tiger is clearly in beta stage NOW, but it was still at alpha stage last year. the difference between alpha and beta is "feature freeze", which they did in january keynote.

I was under the impression that the A in 8A378 stood for alpha. When Apple releases an 8Bxxx build then it'll be in beta.

Panther:

7A179 (WWDC Developer Preview)
7B21 (First beta build)
7B28
7B44
7B52
7B59
7B68
7B85 (declared Gold Master)

[impierced]

My longest running Windows servers were last rebooted on 31 July 2004....

Are you saying that with a straight face? Has it gotten so bad when 6 months of uptime is considered impressive for a server?

[wrldwzrd89]

I was under the impression that the A in 8A378 stood for alpha. When Apple releases an 8Bxxx build then it'll be in beta.

Panther:

7A179 (WWDC Developer Preview)
7B21 (First beta build)
7B28
7B44
7B52
7B59
7B68
7B85 (declared Gold Master)
It's amazing how many are misinformed about the build number system.

8=Tiger (Darwin 8.0, to be specific). 7=Panther, 6=Jaguar, 5=10.1, 4=10.0, etc.
A=the current branch of the 8 tree. Future branches get higher letters: B, C, D, E, etc.
378=the current minor revision/build number of the 8A branch. Newer builds have higher numbers. If a new branch is started, its minor revisions/build numbers will start over at 1 again.

[impierced]

It's amazing how many are misinformed about the build number system.

8=Tiger (Darwin 8.0, to be specific). 7=Panther, 6=Jaguar, 5=10.1, 4=10.0, etc.
A=the current branch of the 8 tree. Future branches get higher letters: B, C, D, E, etc.
378=the current minor revision/build number of the 8A branch. Newer builds have higher numbers. If a new branch is started, its minor revisions/build numbers will start over at 1 again.

Thanks for the info - makes sense. Now if you could clarify the stardate number system? :D

[AidenShaw]

Are you saying that with a straight face? Has it gotten so bad when 6 months of uptime is considered impressive for a server?

No, but six months uptime for the California electrical system is impressive! :rolleyes:

BTW, these are just random lab servers - not 24x7 production systems.

[wdlove]

Apple continues to release updates & fixes to Panther and probably will do so for some time after Tiger is released.

I suspect that there are several separate teams of developers, each working an OS X release:

-- Panther Team
-- Tiger Team
-- Lion Team


Did I miss an announcement? Or is the code made Lion, just your opinion? IMHO it sounds like a good name for 10.5.

[Catfish_Man]

For some reason, I have a bad feeling about Tiger. Moving to the 64 bit processing seems to be an opening for a lot of trouble. Normally, I'm not a pessimistic person at all, ESPECIALLY when it comes to Apple products. Just looking at the list of strange problems still left with Tiger makes me wonder what kind of strange problems are going to arise when it's released to the public. If I invest in Tiger, I'll wait until it's 10.4.5 at least. Otherwise, I'll skip in and wait for the next big cat. I like Panther a lot (though it doesn't have those cute little widgets).

64 bit processing has little/nothing to do with it. Quartz 2D Extreme is a big culprit (for a while it would randomly turn text into weird barcode like images, and would behave really really badly when combined with UI scaling), and many other major changes are in there as well. However, the 10.2 and 10.3 prerelease builds were at least as bad. Some of them I'd install, play around with for about 5 minutes, and go "yeah... time to go back to a release build for now". They were just unusably bad. 10.4.0 will have some issues, just as 10.3.0 and 10.2.0 did, but I don't think it'll be significantly more buggy than them. Be wary of any 3rd party stuff that comes out to turn on UI scaling though... the combination of it and Q2DE is a Nontrivial change. Very nontrivial. You'll be able to identify Quartz/CoreGraphics engineers at WWDC this year by the white hair. I recommend buying them a beer, they've earned it.

<edit>wrldwizard89: thanks for saving me from having to copy and paste my build # post yet again :D </edit>

[madog]

all sofware companies [granted, apple is primarily a hardware company, but makes good software too, so is also a quality software company] consider "alpha" software being such software that is getting new features, "beta" software being such software that has its features implemented but still under development, and a "release candidate" software being such version of beta software that is only being changed if there is a real "showstopper" bug found; and then, the release candidate is being declared a released software if no showstoppers are found within defined timeframe. such release candidate is what apple calls "gold".


I have to utterly and completely disagree with you and state, matter-of-factly, that you are wrong! :eek:

Well, not really [ :D ], but I just wanted to point out the obvious: OS X10.0

If 10.0 was gold , then I'm a monkey's uncle. It's safe to say that 10.0 was a complete mess [well, at least for me :rolleyes: ] of a system and by all reasoning should have been just another beta release. The showstopper was when 10.1 came out and everyone realized that this is what Apple meant by a great new/revamped OS. "Ohhhhhhhhhhh that's what the X is for! Oh OK, I get it..."

Of course..... then came 10.2..... then 10.3 [awesome, btw] and now 10.4 [can you even [b]imagine?!?!, even if you have a dev seed....] we kind have been in a constant alpha stage.....
[isn't all technology just a preview of what's next?]

So really, it's a slippery slope and I shouldn't have even opened my big mouth in the first place :)

[wdlove]

History of Mac OS X release dates:

10.0 on March 24, 2001

10.1 on September 24, 2001

10.2 on August 24, 2002

10.3 on October 24, 2003

10.4 on June 24, 2005?

This a prediction from someone else, sounds good to me. Steve announces at WWDC with the release date. Friday sounds like a good for a relase party. :D

[ryanyogan]

That would be because everyone at the microsoft campus are just twiddling their thumbs mostly, waiting for tiger to release so they can then put the lcds in the photocopier and begin ripping it off for themselves.


I hate to call you out on a Mac forum, I like both PC and MAC. I start my internship w/ Microsoft soon, and I can personally tell you this is not the case. You are going to be somewhat surprised of the new features that are headlined. I know windows XP isn't the greatest, but longhorn really is going to have alot of breakthrough modules in it. If you are a programmer you are already excited about XAML GUI development with C#, it is a breakthrough in development, although is somewhat similar to Flex from macromedia ? Yes / no? Regardless, I watched a demonstration of pictures taken on a wi-fi camera, synched to a longhorn computer, then instantly showed up on a windows smart phone across the U.S. That was pretty neat, not to mention the fact that Aero is starting to look really good, it is very clean and reminds me of glass. And no longhorn is going to look NOTHING like windows XP, don't be surprised when you don't see a start button ;)

Also no thumb twidling, have you noticed there R&D budget, 6 billion dollars for this year! They are making developing easier than ever, now offer free development tools that make me wonder of the future of open source!!

With all that said, I prefer Mac OS X hands down right now, and I love mac so don't flame me, I just had to say you will all be very surprised with what they are cooking up.

[wrldwzrd89]

I hate to call you out on a Mac forum, I like both PC and MAC. I start my internship w/ Microsoft soon, and I can personally tell you this is not the case. You are going to be somewhat surprised of the new features that are headlined. I know windows XP isn't the greatest, but longhorn really is going to have alot of breakthrough modules in it. If you are a programmer you are already excited about XAML GUI development with C#, it is a breakthrough in development, although is somewhat similar to Flex from macromedia ? Yes / no? Regardless, I watched a demonstration of pictures taken on a wi-fi camera, synched to a longhorn computer, then instantly showed up on a windows smart phone across the U.S. That was pretty neat, not to mention the fact that Aero is starting to look really good, it is very clean and reminds me of glass. And no longhorn is going to look NOTHING like windows XP, don't be surprised when you don't see a start button ;)

Also no thumb twidling, have you noticed there R&D budget, 6 billion dollars for this year! They are making developing easier than ever, now offer free development tools that make me wonder of the future of open source!!

With all that said, I prefer Mac OS X hands down right now, and I love mac so don't flame me, I just had to say you will all be very surprised with what they are cooking up.
Interesting. I have never seen any member use all three common spellings of "Mac" (1 is right - "Mac"; 2 are wrong - "MAC", "mac").

Anyway...

That was a good post, ryanyogan. At least Microsoft is putting in a serious effort to improve Windows now. IMO, this started with Windows XP, and Microsoft is going to finish it with Longhorn. I hope Microsoft has the sense to abolish drive letters once and for all with the release of Longhorn. Sure, you can use tweaking tools to hide the drive letters in Windows XP right now, but that doesn't make them go away completely. They're still in certain Explorer windows as well as in the command prompt.

I can't praise Mac OS X enough for general use - that doesn't mean I'm not interested in what Microsoft's working on in addition to what Apple's working on - far from it.

[Evangelion]

And they thought it through. You don't need to put the battery in your Powerbook to see its status.

I have had feature for years in Compaq/HP-laptops. I think it's pretty standard feature across all laptop-manufacturers.