Question Time: Finder Cut and Paste, USB 1.0 vs. USB 2.0, Ch...

[MacBytes]

Category: Tips and How To\'s
Link: Question Time: Finder Cut and Paste, USB 1.0 vs. USB 2.0, Choppy Text, Multi-Item Clipboards (http://www.macbytes.com/link.php?sid=20050222130332)
Posted on MacBytes.com (http://www.macbytes.com)

Approved by Mudbug

[dejo]

Why cut-and-paste when you can drag-and-drop?

[simX]

Why cut-and-paste when you can drag-and-drop?

Because Windows switchers may not be accustomed to doing things like that. Habits like Cut-and-Paste can be hard to break.

[AlmostThere]

Cut and paste is also more reliable than drag and drop, in my experience, especially on a laptop with a track pad and limited screen space for managing multiple windows.

Is there any good reason for omitting it?

[mkrishnan]

Wow, that option-escape to get a word which completes a partial spelling is sooooo sweet. *gets dreamy look*

Too bad I use firefox...I don't know if I'll ever remember to use this again, but alongside the incompatibility with the OS X spell-as-you-type feature.... Ahhh, maybe FF 1.1.....

[simX]

Cut and paste is also more reliable than drag and drop, in my experience, especially on a laptop with a track pad and limited screen space for managing multiple windows.

Is there any good reason for omitting it?

Because it's dangerous and inconsistent behavior. Normally, if you cut something, and then cut something else, the first thing you cut will be lost. When you're dealing with files in the Finder, this is extremely dangerous, especially if you forget that you already cut something.

If you implement cut-and-paste non-destructively (as in the tutorial), it would be inconsistent with the normal definition of cut, and so it doesn't make sense to implement it in that case either.

But it's convenient for Windows switchers, so it makes sense to leave it as a third-party add-on.

[AlmostThere]

Which is what undo is for, isn't it? Rather like the times something gets dropped on some folder by accident and you haven't got a clue where it went ...

[simX]

Which is what undo is for, isn't it? Rather like the times something gets dropped on some folder by accident and you haven't got a clue where it went ...

Undo doesn't change the fact that "Cut" in the Finder would be dangerous. You have to remember that Apple is not only catering to Windows switchers, but also to new computer users.

[dejo]

Because Windows switchers may not be accustomed to doing things like that. Habits like Cut-and-Paste can be hard to break.

Well, IMO Mac OS X is not being built to support the ("bad") habits of Windows switchers. If it was, we'd have the "traffic lights" on the right-side, we'd have menubars at the top of every window, we'd have desktop icons on the left-side, and we'd have a taskbar with a Start button rather than a dock...

[simX]

Well, IMO Mac OS X is not being built to support the ("bad") habits of Windows switchers. If it was, we'd have the "traffic lights" on the right-side, we'd have menubars at the top of every window, we'd have desktop icons on the left-side, and we'd have a taskbar with a Start button rather than a dock...

.... which is why it isn't built in to Mac OS X and should only be provided as an add-on to those who must absolutely have it. :rolleyes:

[dejo]

.... which is why it isn't built in to Mac OS X and should only be provided as an add-on to those who must absolutely have it. :rolleyes:

Agreed. But I think the article does a disservice to readers by not mentioning the built-in drag-and-drop alternative. Some people might be put off by thinking they HAVE to use an add-on AppleScript for something that's built into Windows, when a built-in alternative with Max OS X exists.

[Applespider]

Wow, that option-escape to get a word which completes a partial spelling is sooooo sweet.

Agreed. I love it even although I'm reasonably good at spelling and have an extensive vocabulary. OS X continues to be astonishing to me - or should I use astounding!

[mkrishnan]

Agreed. I love it even although I'm reasonably good at spelling and have an extensive vocabulary. OS X continues to be astonishing to me - or should I use astounding!

How great would it be if it had a thesaurasizer? Then you could be mesmerized. :p

[simX]

Agreed. But I think the article does a disservice to readers by not mentioning the built-in drag-and-drop alternative. Some people might be put off by thinking they HAVE to use an add-on AppleScript for something that's built into Windows, when a built-in alternative with Max OS X exists.

Ah, I see what you mean.

By the way, if you haven't figured it out already, I am the author of that article. The person that e-mailed me the question specifically asked for a cut-and-paste solution and mentioned that copy-and-paste-and-then-delete was not sufficient because he was a Windows switcher. I truncated the question when writing the article, but I see now how it could cause confusion. I added a short paragraph letting readers know that the Finder does indeed support COPY-and-paste.

[dejo]

Ah, I see what you mean.

By the way, if you haven't figured it out already, I am the author of that article. The person that e-mailed me the question specifically asked for a cut-and-paste solution and mentioned that copy-and-paste-and-then-delete was not sufficient because he was a Windows switcher. I truncated the question when writing the article, but I see now how it could cause confusion. I added a short paragraph letting readers know that the Finder does indeed support COPY-and-paste.

Wow. Thanks for considering my point of view and updating the article. And I will admit that there will always be some switchers who will want to do it their way and it is nice to know that the OS gives them some kind of option.

[takao]

the finder can't do cut& paste ? urgh... and i thought that was pretty much standard everywhere...

and why is it bad behavior ? i simply prefer marking the files i want, hitting strg + x move the folders or places i want the files and hit strg + v each time .... i find it less error prone than drag and drop where people tend to hit the wrong folder from time to time ... and then can't find their files anymore

(and personally i don't like holding the mouse button..because you can't be interrupted while dragging)

and why should it be dangerous ? if you hit 'cut' a second time, the files cut before simply get pasted where you cut them out...?

it's a rather simply & basic option ..i'm pretty sure it could be added as a checkbox options with default to 'off' for those hang up upon consistency ...

[AlmostThere]

Undo doesn't change the fact that "Cut" in the Finder would be dangerous.

Hmmm, I am not convinced (not too say you don't make good points).

1) Cutting something moves it to the clipboard, copy copies it to the clipboard. Multiple items on the clipboard is not (should not) a problem and is seems to be consistent behaviour. Cutting two sections of text gives you two sections of text on the clipboard (c.f. KDE, MS Word, anything with a killring).

2) The 'safety' issue. Compare drag and drop - if you drag a folder to another location where one with the same name exists, Finder appears to delete the old one and replaces it with the new. Windows, by contrast, recognises the names and copies the contents, only over-writing new files with the same name. Safety appears to be a low priority and so I am not convinced about this aspect.

When I say appears, if anyone can tell me how to recover the files in Finder from situation 2, I would be very interested. Undo undoes the move but not the delete, and the recycle bin, ahem, Trash ;), is empty. I use Windows and OS X and Linux on a daily basis and differences like this have often caught me out.

[john1123]

i have been using macs for half a year now but am still missing the cut-and-paste. I can't get used to drag and dropping because 1) you must have 2 finder windows open in order to move a file to it's parent's parent folder (i have no idea if that made sense) 2) i have an ibook and trackpad drag-and-drop is not as easy as it sounds.

the problem is i can't get the scripts to run! I get the following error whenever i try to cut something:

Cannot execute the "Cut" Action
An error occured during execution of the Apple Script:
Can't make <<Class alia>> "filename" of <<class cfol>> <<parent directory>> of item "username" of application "Finder" into a string.

I'm not very familiar with applescript at all (does anyone have some links to good tutorials?) so any help would be appreciated :)

[AlmostThere]

1) you must have 2 finder windows open in order to move a file to it's parent's parent folder

Column view?

[mkaake]

expose works while you're dragging stuff. problem solved for me... if you're moving around the finder, you have

1. spring loaded folders
2. expose

if you have a folder open, you can do it with these two methods. 1, you make sure you can see your hard drive on the desktop (or hey, if you used the brushed finder windows, just drag to the disk in the side bar). once you drag the file onto the drive, and hold it there for a second, the drive pops open (or springs, i suppose), and you can move to the next folder. pure bliss.
the second way is with expose. you can mix it with the first method, and hit F11 to see your desktop, and drag onto your disk from there, and complete with spring loaded folders, orrrr, you can open the destination folder, and hit f10, and tab between the two open finder windows.

no muss, no fuss. easy, simple, and it's fun to wow people with expose :)

[simX]

Hmmm, I am not convinced (not too say you don't make good points).

1) Cutting something moves it to the clipboard, copy copies it to the clipboard. Multiple items on the clipboard is not (should not) a problem and is seems to be consistent behaviour. Cutting two sections of text gives you two sections of text on the clipboard (c.f. KDE, MS Word, anything with a killring).

Um, no it doesn't. If you cut something, and then cut something else, only the thing that you cut on the second time exists on the clipboard. It doesn't merge anything existing on the clipboard with what you just cut. It would be ridiculous if it did, anyway, because you usually only want to paste what you JUST cut, not what you've cut a few minutes ago.

2) The 'safety' issue. Compare drag and drop - if you drag a folder to another location where one with the same name exists, Finder appears to delete the old one and replaces it with the new. Windows, by contrast, recognises the names and copies the contents, only over-writing new files with the same name. Safety appears to be a low priority and so I am not convinced about this aspect.

It *WARNS* you about the fact that there's a folder with the same name where you're dropping it, and asks you whether to replace it or not. So yes, it's plenty safe. However, since the Clipboard doesn't warn you that you're replacing the contents of the clipboard when you Cut, enabling Cut and Paste in the Finder would be dangerous, because you could lose whichever files you've already put in the clipboard.

When I say appears, if anyone can tell me how to recover the files in Finder from situation 2, I would be very interested. Undo undoes the move but not the delete, and the recycle bin, ahem, Trash ;), is empty. I use Windows and OS X and Linux on a daily basis and differences like this have often caught me out.

Again, Undo has nothing to do with this. You get warned about Situation 2 before the Finder proceeds.

[simX]

i have been using macs for half a year now but am still missing the cut-and-paste. I can't get used to drag and dropping because 1) you must have 2 finder windows open in order to move a file to it's parent's parent folder (i have no idea if that made sense) 2) i have an ibook and trackpad drag-and-drop is not as easy as it sounds.

the problem is i can't get the scripts to run! I get the following error whenever i try to cut something:

Cannot execute the "Cut" Action
An error occured during execution of the Apple Script:
Can't make <<Class alia>> "filename" of <<class cfol>> <<parent directory>> of item "username" of application "Finder" into a string.

I'm not very familiar with applescript at all (does anyone have some links to good tutorials?) so any help would be appreciated :)

Do this: first open the Cut script you created in Script Editor. Then go back to the Finder and select something. Now go back to Script Editor and press the Run button in the toolbar of the Cut script. Tell me what the error says, and which line is highlighted.

[AlmostThere]

Um, no it doesn't. If you cut something, and then cut something else, only the thing that you cut on the second time exists on the clipboard.

Um, no, that's wrong, examples: Visual Studio Clipboard ring, GNU Emacs, (which has had this since functionality since the early 80's), KDE's Klipper. Select multiple bits of text (or other data) and move each to their own place in the clipboard.

This is important because it is an issue of what cut and paste means. Cutting twice does not equal deletion and it is misleading to imply that as a generic definition of cutting (remember, people come from all systems and some with no experience ... it's not just switchers).

That said, a specific implementation may result in deletion if it only offers a single slot on its clipboard. I am certainly not disagreeing about what happens on OS X (which is why I pointed to other examples in the first place).

Ridiculous? Well, each to their own. Something I have found useful in the past.

Again, Undo has nothing to do with this. You get warned about Situation 2 before the Finder proceeds.
I think I missed the line that said "this action cannot be undone". Either file actions can be undone or they can't. Or in this case, it can be partly undone, you can undo the move but not the delete - maybe a little consistency would clear things up :rolleyes:

Anyway, back to a consistent cut-and-paste. In Finder:

displaying warnings is acceptable and necessary behaviour on file operations,
displaying warnings is acceptable as a result of copy and paste actions (as in the 'pasting on to an existing folder' example) and
there is only a single tier clipboard implementation

Within this context, surely a consistent, native, cut-and-paste can be implemented in Finder:

Cut file -> set important contents bit -> do stuff -> copy or cut again -> test if important contents bit is set AND paste not occured ? true -> issue warning : false = continue with copy.

99% of users will never see anything (they do their cut and paste as they are used to) and the 1% get fair warning about losing data. No-one has to use it if they don't want and it is consistent with current C'nP behaviour. Apple reaches out to more users, users are happier with Finder ... everyones a winner :D

Anyway, just interested in the issues and it's nice to know people are working to offer the functionality where it is wanted, that's all. :cool:

[john1123]

Do this: first open the Cut script you created in Script Editor. Then go back to the Finder and select something. Now go back to Script Editor and press the Run button in the toolbar of the Cut script. Tell me what the error says, and which line is highlighted.

i get the following error message:

Can't make «class docf» "Cut.scpt" of «class cfol» "Scripts" of «class cfol» "Library" of item "john" of application "Finder" into a string.

'string' in line 11 is highlighted.