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samcraig
Mar 18, 2011, 02:56 PM
Just because a company makes you sign their TOS, it does not make the TOS a Holy Grail law. TOS are only written in the best interest of a company and they are very often faulty.

Unfortunately in some countries, people forget to use common sense and reasoning and take everything the way it is BECAUSE it was written in the TOS, as so many people keep quoting in this forum.There is no such thing as a perfect TOS and even if you sign it, it does not mean you cannot challenge it.

Just because the TOS says so and you sign it, it does not make it right or the law. If it did, a lot of legal professionals would be unemployed and a lot of average Joes/Janes would be in jail.

AT&T is in the business to make money. They will take whatever they can get and however they can get it. AT&T is just as unethical as ......(you get to fill in the blanks ;)). It is up to the consumer to challenge AT&T's faulty TOS instead of just being passive, quoting and accepting it. It is amazing and worrisome how accepting some people are in this forum. I guess they do not teach critical thinking anymore in schools and/or colleges.

The sad part is that big companies are in bed with the politicians (republicans and democrats in the US) so the government will never step in to protect the interest of consumers.:mad:

It could be argued that there are plenty of consumers these days that try their darndest to screw over corporations. And by screwing over - I don't mean over questionable actions by the corporation - but just because the consumer feels entitled or worse - simply wants something for nothing to abuse/exploit the company for their own gain.

But that's a whole other subject :)



C N Reilly
Mar 18, 2011, 03:03 PM
Just because a company makes you sign their TOS, it does not make the TOS a Holy Grail law. TOS are only written in the best interest of a company and they are very often faulty.

Yes, I agree. People here keep calling them "contracts", but in my world contracts are the result of a negotiation between two parties. When you go into an AT&T store and are told "sign here," that's not a negotiation. It's not even "take it or leave it," since you're often only told "oh, just sign here for the legalese." As far as I'm concerned, that's no different than a contract signed under duress, and thus I'm under no moral obligation to go out of my way to ensure I'm in 100% agreement with their TOS at all times.

It's a document designed to protect AT&T and take away most of our consumer rights, nothing more. The idea that it's some sort of sacred bond between us and them is laughable.

ReallyBigFeet
Mar 18, 2011, 03:05 PM
I'm just surprised they haven't done this sooner :eek:

Probably because it wasn't an issue when only a handful of hackers knew how to do it. Once all the idiots figured out how to steal tethering for free, they did idiot things with it like downloading pr0n 24/7.

Idiots gotta be idiots. This is why hacking should remain in the hands of people who actually know what they are doing.

CylonGlitch
Mar 18, 2011, 03:05 PM
If AT&T came out and said the following :

Yes, we understand the old Unlimited plan and that some people feel that they should be allowed to do what they want with there data. That was never the intent of the unlimited plan, at that time there was no major streaming video service or tethering option. So we would like to propose the following.

Unlimited iPhone only data (no tethering) : $50/month
10 GB/Month : $50/month ***
4 GB/Month : $20/month ***
2 GB/Month : $15/month ***

*** Use the data any way you want, $5/GB overages apply


Would that make people happy?

rjtyork
Mar 18, 2011, 03:07 PM
It IS legal to jailbreak your iPhone and use software not approved by the manufacturer.
You ARE paying for Unlimited, 4GB, 2GB, or 200 MB worth of data. When you are paying for it, why should it be determined by anybody but you as to how you use that data? It's crooked. You pay the money, you use the data the way you want. If ATT is going to try to charge you for that, there should be a lawsuit.

BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT!!!!!

You signed a contract with ATT and in that contract it states that although you have "unlimited" data, you can only use it the way they want you to use it. You signed it, so you have to live by it, RIGHT?!

WRONG! Take it to court and sue ATT. They can NOT legally charge you an extra $20 just so you can unlock an ability that your phone already has to use data you already own the way YOU want to use it. It's not constitutional. So jailbreak your phones and use that data the way you want, and if ATT tries to charge you an extra $20, that constitutes a break in your contract unless ATT can prove that YOU were the one breaking the contract. (Which they can't, unless you admit it.)

What this will ultimately lead to is ALL TIERED plans, no more unlimited, BUT you'll be able to use the data you pay for however you want.

As for me, I kept my unlimited plan and I run about 6-8 GB a month through it, but that's for Talkatone. I have google voice, and with that, I get unlimited calling wherever there's 3G through my talkatone app, I get unlimited texting for free, and I got to downgrade my plan to the plan with the least amount of minutes so that my phone bill only comes out to $70/month for unlimited Calls, Texts, and Data. And that's BEFORE my 23% employee discount. :)

I will hold onto my unlimited data for dear life because I know how much money it's going to save me using google voice in the long run. Plus, if and when ATT gets sued for charging twice for their services, I'll have my unlimited plan to tether with, and I'll be able to shut off my comcast and use my $54/month I give to ATT for unlimited internet at home, unlimited internet on the go, unlimited calls, and unlimited text. I am SET for when this happens. :)

shanew21
Mar 18, 2011, 03:08 PM
This could be a mess. I know over the last couple days I've been streaming March Madness games like crazy using the CBS app, and I know I'm not the only one. AT&T may have a lot of false positives here.

aeaglex07
Mar 18, 2011, 03:14 PM
i
wrong! Take it to court and sue att. They can not legally charge you an extra $20 just so you can unlock an ability that your phone already has to use data you already own the way you want to use it. It's not constitutional. So jailbreak your phones and use that data the way you want, and if att tries to charge you an extra $20, that constitutes a break in your contract unless att can prove that you were the one breaking the contract. (which they can't, unless you admit it.)

what this will ultimately lead to is all tiered plans, no more unlimited, but you'll be able to use the data you pay for however you want.

As for me, i kept my unlimited plan and i run about 6-8 gb a month through it, but that's for talkatone. I have google voice, and with that, i get unlimited calling wherever there's 3g through my talkatone app, i get unlimited texting for free, and i got to downgrade my plan to the plan with the least amount of minutes so that my phone bill only comes out to $70/month for unlimited calls, texts, and data. And that's before my 23% employee discount. :)

i will hold onto my unlimited data for dear life because i know how much money it's going to save me using google voice in the long run. Plus, if and when att gets sued for charging twice for their services, i'll have my unlimited plan to tether with, and i'll be able to shut off my comcast and use my $54/month i give to att for unlimited internet at home, unlimited internet on the go, unlimited calls, and unlimited text. I am set for when this happens. :)

this

Jcoz
Mar 18, 2011, 03:14 PM
If AT&T came out and said the following :

Yes, we understand the old Unlimited plan and that some people feel that they should be allowed to do what they want with there data. That was never the intent of the unlimited plan, at that time there was no major streaming video service or tethering option. So we would like to propose the following.

Unlimited iPhone only data (no tethering) : $50/month
10 GB/Month : $50/month ***
4 GB/Month : $20/month ***
2 GB/Month : $15/month ***

*** Use the data any way you want, $5/GB overages apply


Would that make people happy?

hell yes it would

nicegoogly
Mar 18, 2011, 03:16 PM
Contracts are not always the result of negotiations. There are take it or leave contracts all over the place. Many posters have said, if you don't like it, don't sign up. Read the contract first. Your ability to walk away is about the only leverage you got, but it still won't change the terms.

Is tethering wrong? In theory, no. People throw the word "illegal" around here but violating a contract or the Terms of Service is no a crime per se, but a violation of the terms of the contract that could have economic/legal consequences. The unlimited data is limited to the device that goes to it. Period. How many of these jailbreak tether supporters have more than one iPhone on their account? You pay for date for EACH device, do you not? It makes it pretty obvious that the data is unlimited but WHERE you use it is not.

One poster made an analogy to a cable company charging you a router fee to use broadband. Funny thing is, Time Warner Cable in NYC, used to charge you per computer you would hook up to a modem. Some people would answer the question "How many computers will you be connecting?" and people would respond with "two or three". Many said one, Time Warner caught a lot of criticism because they could never really know if you did not tell them.

Is there a little bit of fraud to use MyWi...it is murky at best. What is clear that it is not permitted in your TOS. I think is sucks that you can't do it, too. But we have been paying through the nose to use the iPhone from the start. When did that ever change? Wait until Verizon starts their crap with their iPhone customers. I am sticking with AT&T. The devil you know...

What AT&T really needs to do is get the unlimited iPad data rolling again. They wold make a ton of money. Many people waited for the 3G iPad last year. Now, they are the only ones you can find (if you can find any) because some people missed the unlimited data sign up. Some did not need it right away and when they were ready to sign up, no unlimited data. They would sell a lot more iPads, old and new, if they did this.

rjtyork
Mar 18, 2011, 03:16 PM
If AT&T came out and said the following :

Yes, we understand the old Unlimited plan and that some people feel that they should be allowed to do what they want with there data. That was never the intent of the unlimited plan, at that time there was no major streaming video service or tethering option. So we would like to propose the following.

Unlimited iPhone only data (no tethering) : $50/month
10 GB/Month : $50/month ***
4 GB/Month : $20/month ***
2 GB/Month : $15/month ***

*** Use the data any way you want, $5/GB overages apply




Would that make people happy?

I would actually agree to that, although $5/gb overages doesn't quite make the 2GB/month plan sound good. By that logic, you should get 3 GB for $15.

samcraig
Mar 18, 2011, 03:26 PM
The only people who have a leg to perhaps stand on for a lawsuit are the people who are on a tiered plan. If you pay for 2 gig - you are entitled to 2 gig.

Put another way - if you pays for 2 hours of long distance - it shouldn't matter how you use it. You've paid for 2 hours.

Those on unlimited plans (like myself) don't have really have a case. The unlimited data is tied to the device - not to multiple devices. We pay for unlimited data ON the iPhone - not THROUGH the iPhone.

And for those suggesting that all this will just lead to everyone being on a tiered plan with people being able to do with their data however they want are a tad naive. That's pretty much what many people have now - and ATT and other companies ARE legitimately able to/and are charging for the ability to tether.

yg17
Mar 18, 2011, 03:26 PM
Just because a company makes you sign their TOS, it does not make the TOS a Holy Grail law. TOS are only written in the best interest of a company and they are very often faulty.

Unfortunately in some countries, people forget to use common sense and reasoning and take everything the way it is BECAUSE it was written in the TOS, as so many people keep quoting in this forum.There is no such thing as a perfect TOS and even if you sign it, it does not mean you cannot challenge it.

Just because the TOS says so and you sign it, it does not make it right or the law. If it did, a lot of legal professionals would be unemployed and a lot of average Joes/Janes would be in jail.

AT&T is in the business to make money. They will take whatever they can get and however they can get it. AT&T is just as unethical as ......(you get to fill in the blanks ;)). It is up to the consumer to challenge AT&T's faulty TOS instead of just being passive, quoting and accepting it. It is amazing and worrisome how accepting some people are in this forum. I guess they do not teach critical thinking anymore in schools and/or colleges.

The sad part is that big companies are in bed with the politicians (republicans and democrats in the US) so the government will never step in to protect the interest of consumers.:mad:

The TOS is a contract. The contents of a contract are not law, but the fact you signed the contract and agreed to abide by that contract is law. And by tethering without the tethering plan, you are in breach of contract which is illegal.

People should be lucky that AT&T is just warning you then moving you to a tethering plan if you continue tethering, they probably do have grounds to take you to court for theft of service.

CylonGlitch
Mar 18, 2011, 03:29 PM
I would actually agree to that, although $5/gb overages doesn't quite make the 2GB/month plan sound good. By that logic, you should get 3 GB for $15.

The point is to make it worth it to pay for a larger data plan then you actually need (from AT&T's stand point). IE. 2GB/Month + 2GB of overages should cost more then the 4GB plan. Why? To get you to move to the 4GB plan for an extra $5 per month knowing full well that most months you won't be using that much, you'll only use 2 or 3. But it is also for the smart consumer who realizes this, and signs up for the 2GB plan and MOST of the times stays below 2GB and occasionally will go above, they still win. Basically, win-win for everyone.

Seriously, I would leave my unlimited plan now and go to 4GB/month and drop my wife to the 2GB/month. It would be a big win for us; but also help AT&T.

Maybe we need to present this solution to AT&T; anyone know of a way to do this, or to make it widely know?

manman
Mar 18, 2011, 03:30 PM
I thought I made clear in my post that this is simply double billing what is supposed to be an unlimited plan for many and I do NOT agree nor think it is ethical for the carriers to do this! But, when people sign a contract and agree to the terms doing otherwise is not being honest. Plain and simple.

No- I totally agree with you, I'm just saying that whether or not it's against the TOS, I just don't think a scenario like that is 'stealing', and I don't feel bad about it. I would feel more like it was unethical if I invited a bunch of people over to all tether to my connection simultaneously and use data that I couldn't otherwise just use by myself.

But I agree that I signed the contract so if they want to come down on me they have the full right to, whether or not I 'feel' what I'm doing is wrong. And I don't buy any of this crap about contracts having to be the result of some kind of sit-down negotiation otherwise it's the same as signing 'under duress'. Lol, come on get real... We're all capable of making our own choices and being responsible for them here.... If someone says "sign here" you are fully responsible for your choice to do it or not, read it or not, whether you understand it or don't.

People should be lucky that AT&T is just warning you then moving you to a tethering plan if you continue tethering, they probably do have grounds to take you to court for theft of service.

Well... that assumes that they CAN prove it, which seems to be a point of disagreement right now. If people actually are calling up and saying "no, I just stream a lot" and AT&T is saying "ok, sorry" then that would indicate to me that their methods for singling these people out are extremely broad and error prone right now, and that they know it. So chances are the data they are basing this on is not something they could take to court.

CylonGlitch
Mar 18, 2011, 03:30 PM
The only people who have a leg to perhaps stand on for a lawsuit are the people who are on a tiered plan. If you pay for 2 gig - you are entitled to 2 gig.


I would say that those who are on Unlimited who do NOT tether but use a lot of data would also have a leg to stand on. Especially if they got the letter from AT&T.

QCassidy352
Mar 18, 2011, 03:54 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

Just because a company makes you sign their TOS, it does not make the TOS a Holy Grail law. TOS are only written in the best interest of a company and they are very often faulty.

Yes, I agree. People here keep calling them "contracts", but in my world contracts are the result of a negotiation between two parties. When you go into an AT&T store and are told "sign here," that's not a negotiation. It's not even "take it or leave it," since you're often only told "oh, just sign here for the legalese." As far as I'm concerned, that's no different than a contract signed under duress, and thus I'm under no moral obligation to go out of my way to ensure I'm in 100% agreement with their TOS at all times.

It's a document designed to protect AT&T and take away most of our consumer rights, nothing more. The idea that it's some sort of sacred bond between us and them is laughable.

No different than under duress? Really? AT&T's TOS are like being told to sign something while being threatened? Good god. Some people will come up with anything to justify getting the results they want. You want to break your contract and get away with it, fine. That's between you and your conscience. But hyperbole like that just makes it look like you're scrambling for a justification.

princealfie
Mar 18, 2011, 03:55 PM
Which is why I went with Verizon for my iPhone.

kansas-cty-shfl
Mar 18, 2011, 03:56 PM
In honor of this thread I am streaming NCAA games all day on my iPhone, with my unlimited data plan, even when I am not watching them, just so I can use as much data as possible.

Goldinboy17
Mar 18, 2011, 04:02 PM
So there's a theory (http://http://www.tuaw.com/2011/03/18/atandt-aggressively-moving-against-unauthorized-tethering) on how AT&T would be able to track tethering usage.

"...simple, such as checking the ID string that all web browsers send as part of a request. If a given account doesn't have tethering, but it has lots of browsing activity from, say, Firefox or the OS X version of Safari, it's pretty much guaranteed they are using something like MyWi."

If that's the case, those of us who only use tethering for our iDevices would be safe. I have to do it pretty often so the kids can check Facebook and such with their iPods, no way am I adding a data plan to their cells yet. For once I'm glad the iPad mobile browser kinda sucks :D

Gizmotoy
Mar 18, 2011, 04:03 PM
If AT&T came out and said the following :

Yes, we understand the old Unlimited plan and that some people feel that they should be allowed to do what they want with there data. That was never the intent of the unlimited plan, at that time there was no major streaming video service or tethering option. So we would like to propose the following.

Unlimited iPhone only data (no tethering) : $50/month
10 GB/Month : $50/month ***
4 GB/Month : $20/month ***
2 GB/Month : $15/month ***

*** Use the data any way you want, $5/GB overages apply


Would that make people happy?

It would probably make the vast majority of customers happy, but AT&T would never do something like that.

They LOVE having the majority of their base on the $25 and $30 data plans. I'd guess no more than 10-20% of iPhone users regularly go over 2GB. AT&T would cut their data revenue by more than half by offering such a solution. We know they would never consider this because they offer a mere 250MB for the price you're suggesting should offer 2GB, and tethering is not included. That's, what, a $40 / month pay cut for them for those that tether lightly?

No, they want to charge you full price on the phone data, then charge you additional for the privilege of sending that data to another device... which is exactly what they're doing.

Same goes for those suggesting straight $5/GB. Usage-based billing will never happen because it would cut into the ISPs' profits, wireless or otherwise. Their entire business plan is based upon overselling their available bandwidth and hoping no one uses it. Efforts such as what we're seeing here are focused on keeping it that way.

Until something changes, low data usage customers will continue to subsidize high-volume users. There's absolutely no way around that unless we get usage-based billing.

Rodimus Prime
Mar 18, 2011, 04:11 PM
Well... that assumes that they CAN prove it, which seems to be a point of disagreement right now. If people actually are calling up and saying "no, I just stream a lot" and AT&T is saying "ok, sorry" then that would indicate to me that their methods for singling these people out are extremely broad and error prone right now, and that they know it. So chances are the data they are basing this on is not something they could take to court.

Tell this right now any one who understand tcp and deep packet sniffing will tell you that it is not hard to figure it out. It just cost cpu time and network resources. They are not going to do it to everyone because it cost way to much cpu time.
So what they do is look for usage paterns and times to see it happen. Other dead giveaways is large uploads is a dead giveaway since nothing on the iPhone or other smart phone has large streaming uploads (bit torrent for example)
Or someone with large amount of downloads per month are going to get nailed because they are likely tethers so you start deep packet sniffing those people. Log what browser they are reporting certain ones are going to be flag as desktop browsers.

I just gave you a list of things they can looks for to see who is a canidate for the deep packet sniffing to see who is tethers. I would like to point out deep packet sniffing is legal.

Posted from my backberry 8900

bniu
Mar 18, 2011, 04:16 PM
4) Data Pro 2GB + Tethering 2GB for a total of 4GB....



Isn't it really DataPro 4GB with Tethering being complimentary?
From what I see, it's this:

1) Grandfathered Unlimited plan $30
2) 200MB plan for $15
3) DataPro 2GB plan for $25
4) DataPro 4GB plan for $45
Tethering being complimentary on DataPro plans of 4GB and higher

Rodimus Prime
Mar 18, 2011, 04:20 PM
So there's a theory (http://http://www.tuaw.com/2011/03/18/atandt-aggressively-moving-against-unauthorized-tethering) on how AT&T would be able to track tethering usage.

"...simple, such as checking the ID string that all web browsers send as part of a request. If a given account doesn't have tethering, but it has lots of browsing activity from, say, Firefox or the OS X version of Safari, it's pretty much guaranteed they are using something like MyWi."

If that's the case, those of us who only use tethering for our iDevices would be safe. I have to do it pretty often so the kids can check Facebook and such with their iPods, no way am I adding a data plan to their cells yet. For once I'm glad the iPad mobile browser kinda sucks :D

Well even doing that they could tell. All they have took look at is see if final ip address it is going to is different than what AT&T has assigned your phone dead giveaway you on tethering as the phone is working a router sending the data to other devices.

Howdr
Mar 18, 2011, 04:28 PM
The only people who have a leg to perhaps stand on for a lawsuit are the people who are on a tiered plan. If you pay for 2 gig - you are entitled to 2 gig. So I pay $30 a month for 0 Data? Okb? really?

Put another way - if you pays for 2 hours of long distance - it shouldn't matter how you use it. You've paid for 2 hours.
true then we agree, it shouldn't matter how you use data you pay for......
Those on unlimited plans (like myself) don't have really have a case. The unlimited data is tied to the device - not to multiple devices. We pay for unlimited data ON the iPhone - not THROUGH the iPhone.

Please tell us, is the data somehow different it used on a plan that is limited to 1gb or 2gb or 4gb then Unlimited?

Do you see how silly the argument is?

You can't say

"If you have a 2gb plan then you should be able to tether"
"If you have an unlimited plan then you should not be able to tether".

Its contradictory . :eek:
Either everyone should pay to hook a phone up to a computer
Or
No one pays

CylonGlitch
Mar 18, 2011, 04:38 PM
You can't say

"If you have a 2gb plan then you should be able to tether"
"If you have an unlimited plan then you should not be able to tether".

Bah, of course you can. When you have "unlimited" it does not affect you as much by sharing it. Thus people would be more willing to setup private networks at work or wherever with several people on it all sucking down whatever they want. But if you cap that, suddenly people become frugal.

Think of it like this, if you go out an get a bag of cookies, and bring them back to the office. If it's a small bag, you sit in your office and eat them as you wish. Medium bags, you might share with your coworker a cookie or two. But if you have unlimited cookies, EVERYONE will get as many as they want.

My son's friend's father worked for the company that made pokemon cards during the time they were really popular. He got as many as he wanted (including very rare cards) and would bring them in a large bag to school and give them out to everyone. Before he started doing this, kids would trade and try to get one or two good cards; they knew there was a limited supply. Free pokemon cards for everyone really ended it for everyone as well (not really related) because everyone had great cards; so the desire to collect and trade disappeared. [True story by the way]

ET007
Mar 18, 2011, 04:39 PM
The TOS is a contract. The contents of a contract are not law, but the fact you signed the contract and agreed to abide by that contract is law. And by tethering without the tethering plan, you are in breach of contract which is illegal.

People should be lucky that AT&T is just warning you then moving you to a tethering plan if you continue tethering, they probably do have grounds to take you to court for theft of service.

I would disagree with having "to abide by that contract is law." The courts/judges/legal system would have to decide on this part (ie, whether the TOS are fair and justified and whether violating them is against the law), just like when Apple thought that jailbreaking their iPhone was against the TOS and thus against the law. As we know, the courts decided otherwise. So it is not clear-cut as some people like to think.

Hence, consumers should not willingly accept every TOS that is put in front of them as a holy grail law. If all people accepted Apple's TOS, jailbreaking your iphone would still be illegal according to Apple. Consumers need to actively protect their rights because business will not do it.

Howdr
Mar 18, 2011, 04:40 PM
Well even doing that they could tell. All they have took look at is see if final ip address it is going to is different than what AT&T has assigned your phone dead giveaway you on tethering as the phone is working a router sending the data to other devices.

And where is this recorded? From what the reps tell me they can't see.

Data is not recorded in this way.

as for IP address you know that can be easily faked right?

Bah, of course you can. When you have "unlimited" it does not affect you as much by sharing it. Thus people would be more willing to setup private networks at work or wherever with several people on it all sucking down whatever they want. But if you cap that, suddenly people become frugal........


There is a Cap :eek: 5GB........ been known for years now. :cool:

My point is Grandfathered in Unlimited does not mean you have no rights compared to a 2gb plan.

People like to make crap up, you have no "Special status" because your on a 2gb plan, at&t will come after you for tethering just like the 90GB guy.

QuarterSwede
Mar 18, 2011, 04:44 PM
Bah, of course you can. When you have "unlimited" it does not affect you as much by sharing it. Thus people would be more willing to setup private networks at work or wherever with several people on it all sucking down whatever they want. But if you cap that, suddenly people become frugal.
+1 Dead on.

There is a Cap :eek: 5GB........ been known for years now. :cool:

My point is Grandfathered in Unlimited does not mean you have no rights compared to a 2gb plan.

People like to make crap up, you have no "Special status" because your on a 2gb plan, at&t will come after you for tethering just like the 90GB guy.
That 5GB cap, as far as I can tell, is a soft cap. They would send letters in the past but never did anything about it. Now that's changed. They're assuming you're tethering now.

CylonGlitch
Mar 18, 2011, 04:51 PM
And where is this recorded? From what the reps tell me they can't see.

Data is not recorded in this way.

as for IP address you know that can be easily faked right?

Yes, yes they can. Spoofing an IP address is fine, but it cannot be the same IP address within the same domain as another device otherwise it will cause contention / conflict. Every packet has a lot of information stored in the header and options flags; including what type of data is enclosed within the packet. Realtime packet processors can rip apart a packet and extract all types of information from it. As he said, your phone has to act as a router, thus there has to be some routing information within the packet (such as port number, and ip address) so that any incoming packets can be routed to the correct destination. Secondly, every jump that a packet makes, the TTL value is decremented; if it hits zero it is dropped. But all packets from an iPhone to the telco should have fixed TTL's (ie iPhone originates data, it may make 2 hops to get to their servers, at this point it should have, say, FD as it's TTL [FF -2]). If the TTL is less then that value, it obviously had to go through additional hops to get out. Meaning it did not originate on the iPhone itself.

These are just TWO pieces of information they can collect, easily, to prove you're tethering. There are many other things that they can do as well. Data usage is just another flag. Put enough flags up, and you're going to get attention. I bet they could easily convince a judge / jury that you were tethering if they wanted to go after you.

Remember, most service reps don't understand what it takes to do packet processing and network snooping; thus they don't know themselves. But it is obvious that some people here know their ****; listen to them.

BTW I have designed many network routers, and network processors (at the chip level), so I might know something about it. Then again, maybe I'm just full of **** too, right?

phpmaven
Mar 18, 2011, 04:54 PM
Big Thumbs up AT&T. I am glad they are just taking it to enroll people into the 2gig plan and add tethering, saves people the trouble of having to do it themselves!

Plus I won't have to subsidize their data usage from their stealing bandwidth and access from AT&T.

I can't wait though, in a few weeks / months, though, when we start seeing people complaining how AT&T screwed them and changed their dataplan even though they did nothing wrong and weren't using MyFi and AT&T is horrible and a crook.

It is coming...

By the way the supposition as to how they are detecting this is likely way off base. It is probably pretty easy for them to determine it. I suspect Apple has included some kind of method for them to determine it. People who think it is not detectable just don't understand how it works/what it is doing at the device level.

It is child's play to detect tethering. Any time you browse the Internet it's going to send a "User Agent" string in the HTTP header that is a dead giveaway that you are on a iPad or laptop. You could spoof the user agent on some browsers on a Mac or PC but not on the iPad. Also, they could also see that you not getting mobile formatted versions of sites you go to. Perhaps higher quality videos back from Youtube.

There are quite a few ways they could detect it. They probably have other flags embedded in the data packets that are being sent that ID your device as well.

I find it interesting that so many MyWi users were adamant that AT&T would never crack down on "illegal" tethering. I felt pretty certain that when they finally introduced "official" tethering that they would start cracking down.

And where is this recorded? From what the reps tell me they can't see.

Data is not recorded in this way.

as for IP address you know that can be easily faked right?

It's virtually impossible to fake or spoof an IP address.

Well even doing that they could tell. All they have took look at is see if final ip address it is going to is different than what AT&T has assigned your phone dead giveaway you on tethering as the phone is working a router sending the data to other devices.

That's not how it works. The outside word can only see the IP addresses that are actually connected to the Internet. Any devices that are on the other side of a router, which is essentially what you phone is acting as when it tethering, are not visible. Of course that are ninja networking tools that can try and probe connected devices and get that kind of info, but AT&T is not going to that extreme. They are certainly just logging the data packets going to and from your device. Those logs would not contain any data about devices behind routers.


Yes, yes they can. Spoofing an IP address is fine, but it cannot be the same IP address within the same domain as another device otherwise it will cause contention / conflict. Every packet has a lot of information stored in the header and options flags; including what type of data is enclosed within the packet. Realtime packet processors can rip apart a packet and extract all types of information from it. As he said, your phone has to act as a router, thus there has to be some routing information within the packet (such as port number, and ip address) so that any incoming packets can be routed to the correct destination.

Actually, that's not quite accurate. The incoming packets don't have final IP routing data in them. That's the job of the router receiving the packets. It will determine what to do with data being received with a specific port number and decide what IP to route it to. The only IP numbers that would be in the incoming packets would be the router's IP.

snakelda
Mar 18, 2011, 05:04 PM
How did you put Brandon instead of the AT&T?

tkambitsch
Mar 18, 2011, 05:05 PM
AT&T needs a more equitable pricing policy. Does their pricing really reflect their costs to offer the service? I think not. If they did right by customers we wouldn't be tethering.

I have an unlimited plan that I paid $45 per month for almost two years solely because AT&T told me I needed their Enterprise data plan in order to connect to my employer's Exchange Server. The $15 per month surcharge was bogus and I got screwed because I didn't ask the right questions.

Now I dropped the Enterprise data plan and went to the $30 per month unlimited plan even though the AT&T rep tried to stop me. He hinted that I might lose my email service if I did. Well of course that was bunk too.

So I bought my IPad last summer and did not get a data plan. I did get the 3G model because i knew AT&T or Apple would do something to stop tethering some day. I have not felt guilty for using MyWi because of AT&T and it's bogus marketing schemes.

Their pricing doesn't reflect their costs, but does reflect their ability to take money away from customers. They cannot jusify the costs of charging only $0.0125 per megabyte per month for the 2GB plan and charging $0.075 per megabyte per month for the 200 MB plan. The 3G iPad plan is no bargain either at $0.06 per megabyte per month.

The real appeal for tethering is that they really hit you hard for multiple plans at data levels I don't use.

Here is my household data plans ( and I won't even go into the voice charges and the additional MMS charges:

My own iPhone: $30.00 month unlimited plan. I used less than 750MB even with Myfi tethering of my IPad w/3G
Wife's IPhone: $25.00 monthly 2 GB plan. She used only about 50MB

What AT&T would want:

My iPhone: $25 month for a 2 GB plan
My iPad: $25 month for a 2GB Plan
Wife's iPhone: $25 month for a 2GB Plan

Of course when my I get my IPad 3 next fall and I give my wife my original iPad, that means another $25 per month for her plan. Total: $100 month for was is likely to be only about 1GB of data.

Now some might suggest that I drop those 2GB plans down to 250MB plans.

So next summer I end up paying $25 for my iPhone's plan and $15 each for my wife's iPhone, and both of our iPads. So I am still paying $70 per month for about 1 GB of data per month. But then if things heat up slightly with video apps, and I have to buy a second 250MB block to upgrade each of those minimal plans and then I end up paying about $115 for a month but using as little as 1.3 GB of data over four plans.

These prices are based upon assumptions that am not tethering but buying 3G plans for each device.

I can now jump on the DataPro plan for both my wife and myself for a cool $90 per month. We then can both tether our iPads and offer hot spots to our friends with a total of 8GB of data to use. The problem is that we are still likely to use around 1GB per month.

AT&T should charge a more reasonable amount for the minimal plan and not lure people into plans that are too expensive for data plans that few people need.

AT&T needs, family data plans. Do right by us and we won't resort to illegal tethering.

DrDomVonDoom
Mar 18, 2011, 05:16 PM
Yes, yes they can. Spoofing an IP address is fine, but it cannot be the same IP address within the same domain as another device otherwise it will cause contention / conflict. Every packet has a lot of information stored in the header and options flags; including what type of data is enclosed within the packet. Realtime packet processors can rip apart a packet and extract all types of information from it. As he said, your phone has to act as a router, thus there has to be some routing information within the packet (such as port number, and ip address) so that any incoming packets can be routed to the correct destination. Secondly, every jump that a packet makes, the TTL value is decremented; if it hits zero it is dropped. But all packets from an iPhone to the telco should have fixed TTL's (ie iPhone originates data, it may make 2 hops to get to their servers, at this point it should have, say, FD as it's TTL [FF -2]). If the TTL is less then that value, it obviously had to go through additional hops to get out. Meaning it did not originate on the iPhone itself.

These are just TWO pieces of information they can collect, easily, to prove you're tethering. There are many other things that they can do as well. Data usage is just another flag. Put enough flags up, and you're going to get attention. I bet they could easily convince a judge / jury that you were tethering if they wanted to go after you.

Remember, most service reps don't understand what it takes to do packet processing and network snooping; thus they don't know themselves. But it is obvious that some people here know their ****; listen to them.

BTW I have designed many network routers, and network processors (at the chip level), so I might know something about it. Then again, maybe I'm just full of **** too, right?

I think the board just got served....

Anyhow, I just got a message on my iPhone saying that AT&T was discontinuing its Video Share service, methinks this has something to do with unregistered tethering? Hmmmmm?

QuarterSwede
Mar 18, 2011, 05:24 PM
at&t needs a more equitable pricing policy. Does their pricing really reflect their costs to offer the service? I think not. If they did right by customers we wouldn't be tethering.

[snipped for length]

i can now jump on the datapro plan for both my wife and myself for a cool $90 per month. We then can both tether our ipads and offer hot spots to our friends with a total of 8gb of data to use. The problem is that we are still likely to use around 1gb per month.

At&t should charge a more reasonable amount for the minimal plan and not lure people into plans that are too expensive for data plans that few people need.

At&t needs, family data plans. Do right by us and we won't resort to illegal tethering.
amen!

*That's supposed to be in caps. Does MR have a filter on caps now? Gah!

markparker
Mar 18, 2011, 05:27 PM
Yes, yes they can. Spoofing an IP address is fine, but it cannot be the same IP address within the same domain as another device otherwise it will cause contention / conflict. Every packet has a lot of information stored in the header and options flags; including what type of data is enclosed within the packet. Realtime packet processors can rip apart a packet and extract all types of information from it. As he said, your phone has to act as a router, thus there has to be some routing information within the packet (such as port number, and ip address) so that any incoming packets can be routed to the correct destination. Secondly, every jump that a packet makes, the TTL value is decremented; if it hits zero it is dropped. But all packets from an iPhone to the telco should have fixed TTL's (ie iPhone originates data, it may make 2 hops to get to their servers, at this point it should have, say, FD as it's TTL [FF -2]). If the TTL is less then that value, it obviously had to go through additional hops to get out. Meaning it did not originate on the iPhone itself.

These are just TWO pieces of information they can collect, easily, to prove you're tethering. There are many other things that they can do as well. Data usage is just another flag. Put enough flags up, and you're going to get attention. I bet they could easily convince a judge / jury that you were tethering if they wanted to go after you.

Remember, most service reps don't understand what it takes to do packet processing and network snooping; thus they don't know themselves. But it is obvious that some people here know their ****; listen to them.

BTW I have designed many network routers, and network processors (at the chip level), so I might know something about it. Then again, maybe I'm just full of **** too, right?


Isn't it illegal to do this type of packet extraction/snooping without consent? It seems that if they are gaining the data from the packets that I am sending, it would violate information privacy.

On a different note, ATT is probably using a algorithm to detect "tethering" devices, taking into account data usage with respect to time and other metrics that would allow them to flag a device with some certainty. Of course, you might tether and never be detected, but if your a heavy user, i doubt you would slip through.

Kwill
Mar 18, 2011, 05:35 PM
Some users received the above SMS message with a followup email explaining tethering

Next, a representative will pop up on your iPhone screen using FaceTime.
"Pardon the interruption. Please stop breastfeeding your child. We want to talk to you about another kind of tethering."

http://www.pocket-lint.com/images/waRf/3g-facetime-possible-jailbreak-iphone-0.jpg

cmwade77
Mar 18, 2011, 05:45 PM
I don't think it is a bad thing for AT+T to prevent people from tethering to a laptop on an unlimited cell phone plan. Those people are just taking advantage of the system, and wasting bandwidth that the rest of us could use.


As far as I'm concerned it is the same as going to an all you can eat restaurant and sharing your food between two people, while only paying for one. It isn't a serious crime, but it is stealing, and you know that if you get caught you will have to stop. I'm not going to feel bad for these people that are using 5+GB per month.
It is extremely easy to use 5+GB on your phone without tethering...Downloading iBooks, Music, Apps, Movies (Including Netflix Streaming), it is not hard to do at all.

Howdr
Mar 18, 2011, 05:58 PM
It's virtually impossible to fake or spoof an IP address.Wait a minute, I work in IT and use several tools at times, one is Hide my IP and it works sooooooo well.

I have been able to go places where the US is blocked ( at least my IP address was blocked) if its not spoofed then what?

http://www.real-hide-ip.com/

this works I have tested it.

Abuse

there is a thread on here that tells people "I have used 90GB a month for awhile, its safe on unlimited"

Another post is "120gb a month"

these are the people causing the problem.

At&t claimed years ago if Iphone users were allowed to tether they would abuse the data.

When I read the posts

I use "30, 50, 60, 90 and 120GB a month" over and over on MMI and Mac rumors My GOD! :eek:

At&t could be right! :(

because of these abusers I have to worry about the 1 or 2gb of tethering I may need to do now.

thank you for not giving a crap about anyone else............:mad:

manman
Mar 18, 2011, 06:12 PM
Tell this right now any one who understand tcp and deep packet sniffing will tell you that it is not hard to figure it out. It just cost cpu time and network resources. They are not going to do it to everyone because it cost way to much cpu time.
So what they do is look for usage paterns and times to see it happen. Other dead giveaways is large uploads is a dead giveaway since nothing on the iPhone or other smart phone has large streaming uploads (bit torrent for example)
Or someone with large amount of downloads per month are going to get nailed because they are likely tethers so you start deep packet sniffing those people. Log what browser they are reporting certain ones are going to be flag as desktop browsers.

I just gave you a list of things they can looks for to see who is a canidate for the deep packet sniffing to see who is tethers. I would like to point out deep packet sniffing is legal.

Posted from my backberry 8900

Maybe my point here wasn't clear (I probably should have qualified that first statement, my fault). I didn't mean whether or not they theoretically can prove it. I've done my share of network development, and although I can't claim to understand it as well as people that do this stuff for a living, I'm positive they CAN figure out if someone is doing this or not. My comment was more directed at whether or not they have the data already in a state to prove this for the people who are currently getting this message.

I just meant that it may not necessarily be the case that we're just lucky they aren't taking us to court, because it sounds by their reaction to peoples calls that they are doing a very broad estimation at this point of who is tethering and who isn't. So the question to me isn't whether or not they can theoretically prove if you're doing it, but- have they yet and if not, will they deem it worth the cost to do a deep dive on every single 'flagged' case to get the data in a state that does (and would hole up in court).

That's something you need more than a technical understanding of network protocols etc to understand... It's dependent on business factors unique to AT&T.

CylonGlitch
Mar 18, 2011, 06:13 PM
Isn't it illegal to do this type of packet extraction/snooping without consent? It seems that if they are gaining the data from the packets that I am sending, it would violate information privacy.

On a different note, ATT is probably using a algorithm to detect "tethering" devices, taking into account data usage with respect to time and other metrics that would allow them to flag a device with some certainty. Of course, you might tether and never be detected, but if your a heavy user, i doubt you would slip through.

Nope, not illegal. It is a very common practice even in companies to watch to see what type of traffic is flowing across their data lines. This way they can shape traffic, adjust bandwidth dynamically, or detect things that they don't want people doing.

And yes, your note is valid. They may very well flag you for one small time use, or never flag you for an excessive use. It all depends on where they are looking and when. I would think that if you're excessive, you'll get nailed eventually. But I guess they are going to do the following.

1) Watch for high bandwidth users, this is easy and cheap. Then send them notices and flag their accounts.
2) Those who complain or whatever will not automatically be switched, but will most likely come under scrutiny by doing deeper packet processing. Thus they can legally claim that they had evidence to indicate you might be "stealing" from them.
3) Those who continue to do so will either be switched, dropped, or potentially sued. I'm guess the latter would only happen once they have 100% evidence and want to make a point.

phpmaven
Mar 18, 2011, 06:16 PM
Wait a minute, I work in IT and use several tools at times, one is Hide my IP and it works sooooooo well.

I have been able to go places where the US is blocked ( at least my IP address was blocked) if its not spoofed then what?

http://www.real-hide-ip.com/

this works I have tested it.

You are talking about using a proxy server. Spoofing would mean that your router is presenting a faked IP address to the outside world.

manman
Mar 18, 2011, 06:17 PM
Wait a minute, I work in IT and use several tools at times, one is Hide my IP and it works sooooooo well.

I have been able to go places where the US is blocked ( at least my IP address was blocked) if its not spoofed then what?

http://www.real-hide-ip.com/

this works I have tested it.

dude, anybody can use a basic proxy server to view sites blocked or altered for the U.S.... I think what he means to say is that with enough resources at your fingertips (in a company, in government etc), there's always a way to trace back to the source. It's a cat and mouse game when you get to the most sophisticated ways of trying to hide/uncover your source but for anyone out there just using the basic everyday methods it's easy for them to figure it out.

Howdr
Mar 18, 2011, 06:24 PM
dude, anybody can use a basic proxy server to view sites blocked or altered for the U.S.... I think what he means to say is that with enough resources at your fingertips (in a company, in government etc), there's always a way to trace back to the source. It's a cat and mouse game when you get to the most sophisticated ways of trying to hide/uncover your source but for anyone out there just using the basic everyday methods it's easy for them to figure it out.We are also arguing that At&t will monitor Millions of users and compare IP addresses in all the states and cities in the US, pretty ambitious and intrusive. :cool:

wpotere
Mar 18, 2011, 06:33 PM
We are also arguing that At&t will monitor Millions of users and compare IP addresses in all the states and cities in the US, pretty ambitious and intrusive. :cool:

You don't think that they already monitor their network? Clearly they do as they are sending messages out. It isn't intrusive or hard at all to get and determine a location of an IP.

mosx
Mar 18, 2011, 06:35 PM
"You signed a contact blah blah blah whine whine whine"

A stipulation in a contract doesn't mean its fair or enforceable.

Want some examples? Look no further than Apple's EULA. It states you can't modify iOS to do what you want with it. EFF challenged it and, guess what? Now modifying (jailbreaking) is perfectly legal.

Look at some things that have happened with cellphone companies.

ETFs were challenged in court. The carriers lost, but settled in a way so they keep doing it.

AT&T's mandatory binding arbitration clause has been thrown out of court multiple times (still making its way through appeals and such), yet AT&T continues to put it into their contract.

Just because something is stipulated in contract, again, doesn't mean it is enforceable.

When you buy a car you sign a contract. Imagine if the contract said you could only use Costco gas and you had to park in a garage every time the engine was off, and if you didn't. your monthly payment essentially doubles. Do you honestly believe that would stand up as enforceable in court? Absolutely not.

Just about every major ISP in the US now has some sort of dedicated traditional video service, like cable TV or U-Verse or FiOS TV. Imagine if those services put a stipulation in the contract that stated your monthly fee would double if you used 3rd party video services like iTunes, Netflix, Xbox Live's Zune video services, or even streamed CNN from the website instead of watching the channel. Do you think that would be ruled as enforceable in court? Of course not.

AT&T is attempting to do exactly what I stated above. Theres a reason AT&T was broken up a few decades ago. These major wireless companies as well as the wireline companies need to be broken up again.

CylonGlitch
Mar 18, 2011, 06:35 PM
Actually, that's not quite accurate. The incoming packets don't have final IP routing data in them. That's the job of the router receiving the packets. It will determine what to do with data being received with a specific port number and decide what IP to route it to. The only IP numbers that would be in the incoming packets would be the router's IP.

Of course, but as I was trying to imply, that no matter what you do to spoof something, it can be detected. Didn't want to get into too much detail, most people understand IP address but quite a few don't understand ports. :D

Rodimus Prime
Mar 18, 2011, 06:37 PM
And where is this recorded? From what the reps tell me they can't see.

Data is not recorded in this way.

as for IP address you know that can be easily faked right?

Umm that is faking you ip to website threw proxy but sure as hell is not going to fake you IP address to you ISP because all you data goes threw them to get to that proxy so they still have you IP.

Isn't it illegal to do this type of packet extraction/snooping without consent? It seems that if they are gaining the data from the packets that I am sending, it would violate information privacy.

On a different note, ATT is probably using a algorithm to detect "tethering" devices, taking into account data usage with respect to time and other metrics that would allow them to flag a device with some certainty. Of course, you might tether and never be detected, but if your a heavy user, i doubt you would slip through.
It is not against the law and they are not looking at the data but more looking at the flags and some other bits that go on the out side of the data inside the package. Short answer they are looking at all the over head stuff and not paying ANY attention to the data part. you can encrypt the the data to high heaven but you flags and what not on the data packets are still going to be the same so they could still rip those apart.
Wait a minute, I work in IT and use several tools at times, one is Hide my IP and it works sooooooo well.

I have been able to go places where the US is blocked ( at least my IP address was blocked) if its not spoofed then what?

http://www.real-hide-ip.com/

this works I have tested it.

Umm see above. That does not hide you IP address from you ISP as you still going threw them for your internet.

Post from my backberry 8900

phpmaven
Mar 18, 2011, 06:47 PM
Of course, but as I was trying to imply, that no matter what you do to spoof something, it can be detected. Didn't want to get into too much detail, most people understand IP address but quite a few don't understand ports. :D

Agreed. It would be ridiculously easy for any decent programmer to throw together a program that monitors the log files for certain tell-tale items and identify tethering. You can bet they know who's doing it and will follow through on charging them.

chakraj
Mar 18, 2011, 06:53 PM
This is all BS, they are just guessing and emailing heavy users.

If they could realy tell exactly how much you tether then why not sell a $20.00 2 gig teather plus plan on top of your unlimited plan. SO you have unlimited data on your iphone, and you can tether 2 gigs a month also. I would go for that.

Jett0516
Mar 18, 2011, 06:53 PM
ok somebody explain to me this....

so at&t says only 2% of their customers go over 2gb of data which is the reason why they went away with the unlimited data. well if it only 2% of people doing it....then why is at&t even bother cracking down on this?

it doesn't make sense to me.

phpmaven
Mar 18, 2011, 06:54 PM
"You signed a contact blah blah blah whine whine whine"

A stipulation in a contract doesn't mean its fair or enforceable.

Want some examples? Look no further than Apple's EULA. It states you can't modify iOS to do what you want with it. EFF challenged it and, guess what? Now modifying (jailbreaking) is perfectly legal.

Look at some things that have happened with cellphone companies.

ETFs were challenged in court. The carriers lost, but settled in a way so they keep doing it.

AT&T's mandatory binding arbitration clause has been thrown out of court multiple times (still making its way through appeals and such), yet AT&T continues to put it into their contract.

Just because something is stipulated in contract, again, doesn't mean it is enforceable.

When you buy a car you sign a contract. Imagine if the contract said you could only use Costco gas and you had to park in a garage every time the engine was off, and if you didn't. your monthly payment essentially doubles. Do you honestly believe that would stand up as enforceable in court? Absolutely not.

Just about every major ISP in the US now has some sort of dedicated traditional video service, like cable TV or U-Verse or FiOS TV. Imagine if those services put a stipulation in the contract that stated your monthly fee would double if you used 3rd party video services like iTunes, Netflix, Xbox Live's Zune video services, or even streamed CNN from the website instead of watching the channel. Do you think that would be ruled as enforceable in court? Of course not.

AT&T is attempting to do exactly what I stated above. Theres a reason AT&T was broken up a few decades ago. These major wireless companies as well as the wireline companies need to be broken up again.

While you are correct in principal, the reality is that AT&T is going to detect people who are tethering without paying and charge them for it regardless of wether or not any of us feel it's fair or enforceable.

CylonGlitch
Mar 18, 2011, 06:57 PM
ok somebody explain to me this....

so at&t says only 2% of their customers go over 2gb of data which is the reason why they went away with the unlimited data. well if it only 2% of people doing it....then why is at&t even bother cracking down on this?

it doesn't make sense to me.

Because they have to pay for the bandwidth used by these 2%; and besides if they can get more money out of them and make them stop using so much bandwidth, why not?

Schoony74
Mar 18, 2011, 07:52 PM
I don't think they know crap.. They are basing it on usage, and if you admit to them on the phone after your hate mail message. PLAY STUPID!!! Ask them when the last time you "tethered".... And to what device. What Mac address? If they can't answer.. Ask for someone who can.. Isnt it convenient that ATT did away with unlimited Internet, and I bet Allll of us with a hate mail are only us with unlimited Internet. I was told " if I tethered after march 27th I would be forced to a tethering plan to keep my unlimited internet" I could still have internet,, but on a lesser plan if I chose to.. It's just their way of phasing us out on a contract they have to oblige. I was told they knew when and to what device I linked to. So I played stupid and asked what ones?? I got no answer. Prove me wrong... Honestly besides IF they had the ability to monitor that, it's an infringement on our constitutional rights by monitoring "what we do" on our phone and with our internet without a valid warrant. They simply have no place to say anything other than " thank you for taking advantage of our offer for unlimited Internet"

Howdr
Mar 18, 2011, 08:02 PM
Because they have to pay for the bandwidth used by these 2%; and besides if they can get more money out of them and make them stop using so much bandwidth, why not?
OMG May 2010 At&t said they had 15 million customers

if they lost 5 million to Verizon still thats 10 million

2% is 200,000 people abusing the Data per at&t, yeah they would care about 2%

not counting Android users who can and do tether like this ( My son does)

so 200,000 Iphone and ? 100,000 android maybe more................. A heck of lot "Abusers"

if you could just charge $10 each in fees thats 3 million in profit.......... think of what more they could charge?

NoStopN
Mar 18, 2011, 08:17 PM
I guess I should expect a text & email barrage then. If they are just targeting the heavy data users, I'm sure I'm on their radar. Thank you I Heart Radio, YouTube, StreetFire & Filer download/streaming apps for scaring AT&T so badly. :p

Rodimus Prime
Mar 18, 2011, 08:26 PM
I don't think they know crap.. They are basing it on usage, and if you admit to them on the phone after your hate mail message. PLAY STUPID!!! Ask them when the last time you "tethered".... And to what device. What Mac address? If they can't answer.. Ask for someone who can.. Isnt it convenient that ATT did away with unlimited Internet, and I bet Allll of us with a hate mail are only us with unlimited Internet. I was told " if I tethered after march 27th I would be forced to a tethering plan to keep my unlimited internet" I could still have internet,, but on a lesser plan if I chose to.. It's just their way of phasing us out on a contract they have to oblige. I was told they knew when and to what device I linked to. So I played stupid and asked what ones?? I got no answer. Prove me wrong... Honestly besides IF they had the ability to monitor that, it's an infringement on our constitutional rights by monitoring "what we do" on our phone and with our internet without a valid warrant. They simply have no place to say anything other than " thank you for taking advantage of our offer for unlimited Internet"
As explained before not hard for AT&T to figure out if you are tethering. They can legally search your data packets abd they are not looking at the data you are sending/ receiving. They are just looking at the over head part of the packet and that is were the giveaway is and it is not something you can hide.

Howdr
Mar 18, 2011, 08:32 PM
As explained before not hard for AT&T to figure out if you are tethering. They can legally search your data packets abd they are not looking at the data you are sending/ receiving. They are just looking at the over head part of the packet and that is were the giveaway is and it is not something you can hide.

So if the abuse is 2% ( per At&t) and they have at least 10 million Iphone users ( 15 million 5/2010) then they are going to search through all 200,000 abusers

and then the Android abusers how many? guess at 90,000 more at least?

So 300,000 abusers is a lot to search though.............

MikePA
Mar 18, 2011, 09:11 PM
So 300,000 abusers is a lot to search though.............

Obviously, you've never done any programming.

Rodimus Prime
Mar 18, 2011, 09:23 PM
So if the abuse is 2% ( per At&t) and they have at least 10 million Iphone users ( 15 million 5/2010) then they are going to search through all 200,000 abusers

and then the Android abusers how many? guess at 90,000 more at least?

So 300,000 abusers is a lot to search though.............

Umm 300k is not that many to look threw. 15 million yes would be a lot to look threw but 300k relatively few and they have the computing power to do it. Just set a few servers to chug threw the data during the night during low usage time.

It is just scanning for certain tail tail signs on flag users.


Obviously, you've never done any programming.


LOL my first though as well. Someone has never messed with large data structures to understand that 300k even with lets say a million data points each is not exactly an insane amount to search threw.

manman
Mar 18, 2011, 09:28 PM
They wouldn't be searching through that 2% they would be searching though everyone (otherwise if they knew what 2% it was there would be no reason not search!) lol. But even that is not hard to run an algorithm on... The question is how solid the algorithm is and whether they would spend the resources to pursue it. That also depends on how much this is really costing them. We seem to have a number of devs in here that understand the technical question of HOW to identify the people tethering, but a lot fewer people who either understand or just look at the business side of this. with any company the reasons behind whether or not it makes financial sense to do something will always affect the outcome more than whether they technically can. Anyone even close to an executive decision making level at a company ha seen this a million times. Some problem that it look clear could be fixed, some feature that could easily be added and seems like it should... But if it will cost more money than it will make it ends up being dropped.

Its simple and relatively cheap to run a basic algorithm that flags potential offenders and blasts out an email. But it's more expensive to take all the flagged accounts, run more intense checking, follow up on it in a less automated way, deal with false positives etc. It may be the case that they only plan to do the former and shake the tree a little to scare some people off and reduce a problem that's already pretty small in the scope of things.

MikePA
Mar 18, 2011, 09:37 PM
1. Search logs for key values in the packets which identify tethering.
2. Look IMEI up in customer database.
3. Check if customer has a tethering plan.
4. If not, Send customer a text and/or an email.
5. Set bit on customer database to indicate candidate for mandatory tethering plan.

Simple.

Kadman
Mar 18, 2011, 09:50 PM
Umm 300k is not that many to look threw. 15 million yes would be a lot to look threw but 300k relatively few and they have the computing power to do it. Just set a few servers to chug threw the data during the night during low usage time.

It is just scanning for certain tail tail signs on flag users.





LOL my first though as well. Someone has never messed with large data structures to understand that 300k even with lets say a million data points each is not exactly an insane amount to search threw.

A) The word is "through", as in " I looked through the glass" or " I searched through the data.". It's not "threw" as in "I threw the ball."

B) you cannot setup packet inspection for only those that use over a certain amount. You turn on inspection on the device and decide how to act upon it. This IS a significant step to take on a network of this size and I would venture to guess that AT&T hasn't gone this far. I'm on the side of them just tagging high volume users and firing off the email.

wpotere
Mar 18, 2011, 09:50 PM
1. Search logs for key values in the packets which identify tethering.
2. Look IMEI up in customer database.
3. Check if customer has a tethering plan.
4. If not, Send customer a text and/or an email.
5. Set bit on customer database to indicate candidate for mandatory tethering plan.

Simple.

I was going to say... This isn't that hard at all and could be done with a simple program.

reden
Mar 18, 2011, 09:51 PM
Option 3; STOP trying to cheat the system, and START using your iDevice the way the manufacturer designed it and the way your carrier supports it. (Is it unfair? YES! Are all of us iPhone users getting hosed, even though there's now two carriers? YES)

And while you're at it, knock off the piracy with the napster/limewire/torrent crap.

(Yeah, I said it! SOMEBODY had to!)

You said it because no one other than you would say that nonsense.

Kadman
Mar 18, 2011, 09:54 PM
Simple.

I have multiple Cisco CCIE's on staff that disagree. Turning on that level of logging within a network the size of AT&T would be brutal. It's a huge deal.

kindaobsessed
Mar 18, 2011, 10:24 PM
These justifications are killing me....so instead of the anolgy of comparing it to food let's try this

You have 500 anytime minutes and you should be able to use them as you want on any phone without paying extra....as you know that does not exsist so why would you think there should be a data plan that allows you to use it on any device?

I cannot comprehend the sense of entitlement it is amazing.

True fact -- the most lie told....not no you don't look fat honey...it is "I agree" to terms and conditions ..... You just got caught in your lie and wanna take it out on the one who caught you --- ATT.

QuarterSwede
Mar 18, 2011, 10:31 PM
These justifications are killing me....so instead of the anolgy of comparing it to food let's try this

You have 500 anytime minutes and you should be able to use them as you want on any phone without paying extra....as you know that does not exsist so why would you think there should be a data plan that allows you to use it on any device?

I cannot comprehend the sense of entitlement it is amazing.

True fact -- the most lie told....not no you don't look fat honey...it is "I agree" to terms and conditions ..... You just got caught in your lie and wanna take it out on the one who caught you --- ATT.
My account is on the SIM card so I can transfer it to any GSM phone I want and use it. You are dead wrong.

Number 41
Mar 18, 2011, 10:41 PM
Some of the psuedo-lawyers on here should research the term "adhesion contract" -- no court would ever require you to abide by AT&T's decision to up your price over this issue.

bowlerman625
Mar 18, 2011, 10:48 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

delete

rstansby
Mar 18, 2011, 10:53 PM
What is really stupid about this from AT&T is that they are requiring the user to act to Opt Out of getting the hot spot data plan. I thought companies stopped automatically enrolling people even if they were notified. I thought companies were supposed to require an Opt In for subscriptions and services.


These people did opt in when they actively jailbroke their phones for the purpose of tethering. I love how everybody brags about getting one over on the system, and then when the party ends, they act like they were victimized.

rstansby
Mar 18, 2011, 10:55 PM
Some of the psuedo-lawyers on here should research the term "adhesion contract" -- no court would ever require you to abide by AT&T's decision to up your price over this issue.

And obviously if you call AT&T they will not hold you to this increased price. They know that many people will be too embarrassed (or too lazy) to complain.

kindaobsessed
Mar 18, 2011, 10:57 PM
My account is on the SIM card so I can transfer it to any GSM phone I want and use it. You are dead wrong.

Dead wrong? So you can use 2 different devices with the same anytime minutes at the same time with out paying $10 extra a month? I think I may have just gotten life support...I am not dead wrong.

QuarterSwede
Mar 18, 2011, 10:59 PM
Dead wrong? So you can use 2 different devices with the same anytime minutes at the same time with out paying $10 extra a month? I think I may have just gotten life support...I am not dead wrong.
Ahh, at the same time. I missed that part.

rstansby
Mar 18, 2011, 10:59 PM
This is all BS, they are just guessing and emailing heavy users.

If they could realy tell exactly how much you tether then why not sell a $20.00 2 gig teather plus plan on top of your unlimited plan. SO you have unlimited data on your iphone, and you can tether 2 gigs a month also. I would go for that.

So far I haven't heard one report from someone who has received the warning without tethering.

bowlerman625
Mar 18, 2011, 11:00 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

What does it take to catch a thief?

Howdr
Mar 18, 2011, 11:08 PM
So far I haven't heard one report from someone who has received the warning without tethering.

Then you haven't read very much, there's a couple posts here on Mac rumors and on ModMyI

Rodimus Prime
Mar 18, 2011, 11:09 PM
Obviously, you've never done any programming.

A) The word is "through", as in " I looked through the glass" or " I searched through the data.". It's not "threw" as in "I threw the ball."

B) you cannot setup packet inspection for only those that use over a certain amount. You turn on inspection on the device and decide how to act upon it. This IS a significant step to take on a network of this size and I would venture to guess that AT&T hasn't gone this far. I'm on the side of them just tagging high volume users and firing off the email.


I am going to tell you right now that I bet they are only getting people who tether. I know enough about TCIP to know it is not hard to do it. Given that AT&T is an ISP they are going to be really good at it and know quick ways to do it.
They are just starting to crack down and I going to say they are more than likely starting with the abusers and working their way down the list getting the worse people first and logging and checking their usage.

Fight them on it and AT&T will win. Hell AT&T can and more than likely will end your service and then stick you with the ETF for violating the TOS and therefor you broke the contract.

Howdr
Mar 18, 2011, 11:19 PM
I am going to tell you right now that I bet they are only getting people who tether. I know enough about TCIP to know it is not hard to do it. Given that AT&T is an ISP they are going to be really good at it and know quick ways to do it.
They are just starting to crack down and I going to say they are more than likely starting with the abusers and working their way down the list getting the worse people first and logging and checking their usage.

Fight them on it and AT&T will win. Hell AT&T can and more than likely will end your service and then stick you with the ETF for violating the TOS and therefor you broke the contract. As my wife just yawned and said "How many times can the same thing be repeated?"

Yes yes they can but that is not what they are doing, this is not new.

last year they did the same thing around this time of year.

Letters went out then it was over till now.

People are stupid. I was posting yesterday minutes before these stories broke about tethering and being careful and knowing that high usage ( over 5gb cap on unlimited) causes a flag. Another "Mac Rumor Expert" was arguing its not true and I was making people scared unwarranted. LOL yeah right

I'm in disagreement about reasonable use people, if you do not abuse the tether and stay within a reasonable Data use they should leave you alone.

Its the 10 or more GB a month people, DL movies and torrents, they are the real abusers.

logandzwon
Mar 18, 2011, 11:27 PM
And by the way AT&T, all I want from you is a large pipe full of 1s and 0s. What I choose do do with them, or how I use and distribute them should be of no concern... Just one flat rate for a big, fast, data pipe.



um... that is what AT&T is OFFERING YOU. $45 a month for 4GB you can use ANYWAY you want. IF you accept restrictions, then you can pay less.

Rodimus Prime
Mar 19, 2011, 12:59 AM
As my wife just yawned and said "How many times can the same thing be repeated?"

Yes yes they can but that is not what they are doing, this is not new.

last year they did the same thing around this time of year.

Letters went out then it was over till now.

People are stupid. I was posting yesterday minutes before these stories broke about tethering and being careful and knowing that high usage ( over 5gb cap on unlimited) causes a flag. Another "Mac Rumor Expert" was arguing its not true and I was making people scared unwarranted. LOL yeah right

I'm in disagreement about reasonable use people, if you do not abuse the tether and stay within a reasonable Data use they should leave you alone.

Its the 10 or more GB a month people, DL movies and torrents, they are the real abusers.

People keep repeating that because so many people here refuse to understand it and keep saying only going after major users.

Last year later if you noticed were more at the big abusers trying to get them to use WIFI more often to reduce the network load.
Based on Poll in the iPhone forum. Only people who teathering a lot are the only one getting hit. While currently most of them have not yet. This tell me they are just working down a list and clearly are able to tell who is teathering and who is not teathering.

Also tells me they are doing something and having no problem figuring out who it is.

dukebound85
Mar 19, 2011, 01:38 AM
The TOS is a contract. The contents of a contract are not law, but the fact you signed the contract and agreed to abide by that contract is law.

No, it isn't. A contract is not law, it is merely a legal agreement. Breaking such agreement can be resolved by a civil lawsuit.

And by tethering without the tethering plan, you are in breach of contract which is illegal.


It is not illegal. It may result in being sued but it is not illegal (ie you will not get criminal charges)

Full of Win
Mar 19, 2011, 02:39 AM
Good night AT&T, I'm going to stream a three hour movie from Netflix tonight on my unlimited iPad plan that I will not watch, just to burn your data. I'm going to do this over and over.

Oh, and just for you, I've removed all my 30 - 48 kbps bookmarks in TuneIn Radio withnones that do 128 kbps, and will stream them all the time. I know it's not much, but as I now say...

waste 3G data locally, screw AT&T globally.

Wnp32d
Mar 19, 2011, 02:56 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_2_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8C148 Safari/6533.18.5)

And what about the "Tos" I am supposed to have with ATT which says I am paying for unlimited data which is really not unlimited. Are they in breach? Ive had this plan since iPhone 1. Is this at least false advertising? They have changed there Tos over the years and said take it or leave it.
Just because there is a Tos doesn't mean it is "legal". Take landlords for example...you sign an agreement to live there but not requirements have been determined to be legal. All it takes is a legal challenge to determine. The early termination fee is part of the Tos but in California a court ruled it un fair and they had to adjust. Even jailbreaking itself was ruled legal simply because once I purchase a product it becomes mine. Someone mentioned cable channel packages. If I bought an unlimited plan of cable channels what is my expectation? Half the channels?

DavePurz
Mar 19, 2011, 03:14 AM
I've written to my members of Congress to get the FCC to step in and forbid extra charges for tethering. If I pay for 2 GB of data, it's irrelevant HOW I consume it. I've paid for it and it's mine to use as I see fit! The idea of charging ANY fee based on my method of connecting is asinine! If I go over my data limit, either with the phone OR notebook, I get charged for it. AT&T could actually MAKE money, legitimately, from excess data usage.

I asked Congress to step in because they've done it before. Many years ago, the Plain Ol' Telephone Service ("POTS") used to charge extra for EACH jack in your home. They claimed it was a convenience to have a jack in other rooms and customers had to pay for it.

If we follow AT&T Wireless' flawed logic, then the "POTS" should charge an extra fee for hooking up a cordless phone to your landline. Since it allows you to move from room to room more freely, you might talk on the phone more and that could increase your usage. That argument doesn't stand up because, if you're on a limited plan, you pay extra when you go over, regardless of whether you use a wired phone or a cordless one.

The FCC also stopped Cable Companies from charging extra per TV outlet. This happened when "cable ready" TV came out. Equipment rental fees for converter boxes are exempt.

It's time for GREEDY Cell Phone Companies to be forced to STOP this unjustifiable gouging!

Write to the FCC and your representative.

bpaluzzi
Mar 19, 2011, 03:38 AM
Enjoy Greedy corporate thieves who break the law because they're big enough to do so, emptying your wallet.

You clearly have no knowledge of law whatsoever. AT&T made the biggest mistake of it's existence when it stupidly offered an Unlimited data plan, and then decided it couldn't support it. Since then, they've done everything in their power to back out of it.

No matter what fine print they include in the contract, they cannot sell an unlimited data plan, and then limit it, in any way. I have the legal right to jailbreak phone, and I have the the contractual permission to use unlimited amounts of data from AT&T.

Ironically, my monthly usage could be more than 3-4 gigabytes anyway...but that's not even close to the point. The point is how I use the data, and I have every right under the sun to use this data how I see fit. For web browsing, for location apps, for email, or for tethering.

AT&T has no ability, under my contract, to invent a new category of usage in an attempt to limit my unlimited data. BUZZZZ! Wrong. Illegal. Breach.

You yourself can grow up, adults don't lie down to be taken advantage of. Only little scared children do that.

Mommy, when I grow up, I want to be an uninformed internet tough guy!

harrysinsh135
Mar 19, 2011, 05:20 AM
http://www.macrumors.com/images/macrumorsthreadlogo.gif (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2011/03/18/atandt-cracking-down-on-unauthorized-tethering/)


http://images.macrumors.com/article/2011/03/18/021016-atttext.png

ModMyI (http://modmyi.com/forums/iphone-news/755094-t-cracking-down-mywi-tethering.html#post5900724) and our forums (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1119488) have reported that some users are receiving notices from AT&T about unauthorized tethering. Tethering is the act of sharing your iPhone's 3G connection with another device. AT&T charges an additional fee for this activity.

Some users received the above SMS message with a followup email explaining tethering and warning them that tethering will be enabled if they continue to use that feature.TiPb speculates (http://www.tipb.com/2011/03/18/att-cracking-jailbroken-mywi-users/) on how they are detecting unauthorized tethering:

Article Link: AT&T Cracking Down on Unauthorized Tethering (http://www.macrumors.com/iphone/2011/03/18/atandt-cracking-down-on-unauthorized-tethering/)
Thank you for the information that you have given in the post, can you give me more information about this.

Kadman
Mar 19, 2011, 07:51 AM
I am going to tell you right now that I bet they are only getting people who tether. I know enough about TCIP to know it is not hard to do it. Given that AT&T is an ISP they are going to be really good at it and know quick ways to do it.
They are just starting to crack down and I going to say they are more than likely starting with the abusers and working their way down the list getting the worse people first and logging and checking their usage.

Fight them on it and AT&T will win. Hell AT&T can and more than likely will end your service and then stick you with the ETF for violating the TOS and therefor you broke the contract.

You know so much that you can't even use the correct acronym?!?! This is just comical. This would take tremendous effort. Could they do it? Yes, at great cost. Have they done it? I seriously doubt it. In fact the evidence lends itself to the idea that it's just data volume. Some who have never tethered receive notices and many who regularly tether have not received notification.

It's much easier to simply capture data volume metrics than it is to get into the business of packet inspection, syslogging, etc. In fact, the message in the OP's message isn't new. I received that one about 2 years ago, long before I ever started tethering.

QuarterSwede
Mar 19, 2011, 07:58 AM
I've written to my members of Congress to get the FCC to step in and forbid extra charges for tethering. If I pay for 2 GB of data, it's irrelevant HOW I consume it. I've paid for it and it's mine to use as I see fit! The idea of charging ANY fee based on my method of connecting is asinine! If I go over my data limit, either with the phone OR notebook, I get charged for it. AT&T could actually MAKE money, legitimately, from excess data usage.

I asked Congress to step in because they've done it before. Many years ago, the Plain Ol' Telephone Service ("POTS") used to charge extra for EACH jack in your home. They claimed it was a convenience to have a jack in other rooms and customers had to pay for it.

If we follow AT&T Wireless' flawed logic, then the "POTS" should charge an extra fee for hooking up a cordless phone to your landline. Since it allows you to move from room to room more freely, you might talk on the phone more and that could increase your usage. That argument doesn't stand up because, if you're on a limited plan, you pay extra when you go over, regardless of whether you use a wired phone or a cordless one.

The FCC also stopped Cable Companies from charging extra per TV outlet. This happened when "cable ready" TV came out. Equipment rental fees for converter boxes are exempt.

It's time for GREEDY Cell Phone Companies to be forced to STOP this unjustifiable gouging!

Write to the FCC and your representative.
Well said Sir. Bravo.

Howdr
Mar 19, 2011, 08:06 AM
So far no one, so far as I know from looking at multiple forums, has either received anything with low data usage, i.e. under 1gb, or from using TetherMe. However, someone posted this, which may be of interest.

ATT internal info concerning tethering:......................




As of March 17, we will be sending notification to subscribers who are currently tethering without the appropriate and required smartphone data plan which is DataPro 4GB for Smartphone Tethering.

Process to Bring Account in Line With Policy
..............

Why Are We Doing This?

Customers tethering without the appropriate data plan are not in line with the requirements of their Wireless Customer Agreement. Review this from the Related Links section.



When Does The Communication Start?

The notifications begin to go out on March 17, 2011.



Which Customers Are We Addressing?
...............

We will be notifying customers in stages, however, the plan is to eventually identify and notify all customers tethering with a smartphone, regardless of the type, without the required data plan.



How Will They Be Notified?

Notifications are sent by e-mail, SMS, and a letter sent through U.S. mail.
.............

Customers may either bring their account up to date as requested or they may choose to discontinue tethering and remain on their current data plan.

If they continue to tether and do not change their data plan to DataPro 4GB for Smartphone Tethering, a second notification will be sent informing them that we have moved them to DataPro 4GB for Smartphone Tethering, as we informed them in the first communication.

Secondary notifications will also be sent via U.S. mail, e-mail, and SMS. Refer to the Related Links section to review samples.



Frequently Asked Questions

Which plan are customers automatically moved to if they do not bring their account in line with our policy?
They are moved to 4GB for Smartphone Tethering. The $45.00/month plan includes 4GB of data per month; $10.00 for each additional GB thereafter, added automatically as needed. Mobile Hotspot capabilities are included for compatible smartphones. Refer to the Related Links section for more information.

How does this work with customers currently on a Smartphone Data Unlimited plan?
Handle business as usual. We do not offer a tethering option for subscribers who wish to remain on their Smartphone Data Unlimited plan. However, the customer can keep their unlimited data plan if they stop tethering. If they wish to continue to tether, they will need to move to DataPro 4GB for Smartphone Tethering to align with our policy.

Once a customer moves to DataPro 4GB for Smartphone Tethering, whether they do so on their own or we automatically update their account, the customer will no longer have the option to return to the Smartphone Data Unlimited plan.


Similar to date as well: SIM Swapping

Appropriate data plans are required to use Mobile Broadband devices (laptop, tablets, or AT&T Mobile Hotspot devices) on the AT&T Network.

Effective March 16, 2011, AT&T will systematically enforce this policy by alerting customers with unlimited data plans when they take the SIM from their current smartphone, QMP, or basic phone and place it into a Mobile Broadband device to access data unlimited, that an appropriate data plan is required.

..........................
If the customer continues to use their smartphone SIM in their Mobile Broadband device, their data service will be suspended until the end of the billing period, unless the customer calls into Customer Care to add the appropriate data plan.

Note: If the customer does not contact Customer Care to add a plan, their data service will be restored for their smartphone at the beginning of the new billing cycle. If SIM swapping activity is detected during the next billing cycle, the data service on the account will be suspended again.

Is my customer eligible for a data credit while his data service is suspended?
No.

Can my customer continue this process each billing cycle?
No. If the customer continues the out of policy behavior, AT&T reserves the right to remove the unlimited smartphone data plan from the account.


OK the internal memo now.............Do the people who say At&t will not FIRE you or continue to look for out of contract tethering on a regular basis is not true?

LOL I think those idiots who thought it was ok to Download 90GB and 120GB a month are now SOL, and should be owned by At&t

but this ruins Unlimited for the rest of us, it is clear with this action

Unlimited is now dead, you go over 5gb a month and your then flagged as a tether

I'm telling you that this is the secondary purpose, in At&t's eyes unlimited is evil, it causes users to think they have unlimited data and should be able to use 100gb a month and abuse the Data.

You say Verizon won't do this? Then your a FOOL!
Verizon has already said they will Throttle high use people. Make CDMA slower then it is now so Unusable.


Why did this happen? 2% of 15 million Iphone owners and who knows how many Android users are abusing the data plans

at least 300,000 users

I said it before

300,000 abusers are switched off of $30 a month or made to add $20 tether plan to the 2gb $25 plan

revenue generated? 200,000 at extra $15 for the 25 plus 20 dropping unlimited is 3 million dollars, 100,000 add the $20 plan generates 2 million dollars, that is 5 million dollars a month or 60 million dollars a year in lost revenue to At&t

if you could increase revenues by potential 50 to 60,000,000 year do you not think At&t CEO would say awesome?

Howdr
Mar 19, 2011, 08:21 AM
People keep repeating that because so many people here refuse to understand it and keep saying only going after major users.

Last year later if you noticed were more at the big abusers trying to get them to use WIFI more often to reduce the network load.
Based on Poll in the iPhone forum. Only people who teathering a lot are the only one getting hit. While currently most of them have not yet. This tell me they are just working down a list and clearly are able to tell who is teathering and who is not teathering.

Also tells me they are doing something and having no problem figuring out who it is. Per the internal At&t memo I jsut posted from another Post here on Mac Rumors, Yes they are going after High Use people for the most part and the Ipad Sim switchers.

At&t has probably seen a Data (Abuse) spike with Ipad and now want to squash the abuse they feel is happening.

A little research has proven to me that if its 2% of the 15 million Iphone users then its as high as 300,000 morons using 10GB or more of data a month.

I think more then 10GB a month is a lot and could be thought of as abuse.

Before 2007 ( just a few years ago) no one offered unlimited

After introduced a certain number of people thought they could ditch the home internet and tether........ the number grew and it seems too much for At&t to ignore.

Look I think reasonable use of tethering should be allowed and AT&t should not be charging for it as long as you stay within the limit.

Unlimited 5GB
Data Pro 2gb

Idiots who want to use 50 GB a month OK this is the new cost

Data pro with tether 4gb at $45 each GB additional $10

so 45 plus 46gb at $10 a month is $505 a month for you to stream and Download................................
Math of lost revenue if you were following rules about 6,000 a year for internet. If its as high as only 50,000 going 50gb and over? At&t can say they lost 300,000,000 in revenue a year now.

If I took these numbers to the CEO of AT&t what would they say?

ayeying
Mar 19, 2011, 08:29 AM
Sucks for AT&T cause I use 30+ GB per month without tethering. I never got any notices or any warnings.

gravytrain84
Mar 19, 2011, 08:37 AM
Sucks for AT&T cause I use 30+ GB per month without tethering. I never got any notices or any warnings.

30gb!???!???? How??????:eek::eek::eek:

Howdr
Mar 19, 2011, 09:18 AM
Sucks for AT&T cause I use 30+ GB per month without tethering. I never got any notices or any warnings.

FOr what?

Number 41
Mar 19, 2011, 10:03 AM
Good night AT&T, I'm going to stream a three hour movie from Netflix tonight on my unlimited iPad plan that I will not watch, just to burn your data. I'm going to do this over and over.

Oh, and just for you, I've removed all my 30 - 48 kbps bookmarks in TuneIn Radio withnones that do 128 kbps, and will stream them all the time. I know it's not much, but as I now say...

waste 3G data locally, screw AT&T globally.

I support this.

The number of corporate shills and self-righteous pricks on here is unbelievable.

Oh wait, I'm already a thief because I jailbroke to change my SMS tones and add a calander for my upcoming cases to the lockscreen. :rolleyes:

uiop.
Mar 19, 2011, 10:14 AM
Glad to see the productive turn this thread has taken...as all threads on MR do.

Anyway. I'm alright with the news. I pay $45 a month for tethering, why shouldn't you also?

Cutwolf
Mar 19, 2011, 10:32 AM
There's a binding arbitration clause in the TOS.

These often aren't worth much more than the paper they're written on in contracts of this type.

Arbitration also isn't the only option provided for in the dispute section.

Cutwolf
Mar 19, 2011, 10:37 AM
No, it isn't. A contract is not law, it is merely a legal agreement. Breaking such agreement can be resolved by a civil lawsuit.


It is not illegal. It may result in being sued but it is not illegal (ie you will not get criminal charges)

Thank you. Beat me to it. It is not illegal to break a contract, and in fact, some very prominent scholars and judges advocate breaking contracts in certain situations,

Additionally, just because something is in a contract doesn't mean it will be enforced in court. A contract is worth only as much as the court that hear it says it is worth.

I also think there is a viable case to be made against AT&T for misrepresentation (advertising unlimited data, but imposing limitations buried in the contract), which would make the contract voidable.

Verizon was sued for something similar and settled for $1 million and a bunch of other things. They had advertised unlimited data, but put in the contract that this data was not to be used fir mms, video, etc. A bit more extreme, but similar.

Howdr
Mar 19, 2011, 10:42 AM
Sir,

I recommend you go to someone other than your 10 year old son for legal advice as it is clear you have no idea what a contract is. While you may wish the amount is the issue, that is not what you agreed to. Its also clear you don't understand how AT&T comes up with their pricing models and how your selfish actions effect us all.

Again, no one forced you to enter into an agreement with AT&T. There were other phones. And now that Verizon has the iPhone you can even switch carriers.

But you did agree, and now you are operating outside that agreement and crying foul. Sorry, the foul is on you. It doesn't matter if you think they are charging too much etc, any more than you can go in to a store and buy one bottle and steal one bottle of your beloved water because you think their price is too high.

If you feel you are operating under your contract legally, then have the backbone to enter into legal action. I am sure there is a class action hungry lawyer who would love to take on AT&T for some quick bucks, if in fact you do have a case.

But we both know, you don't have a case because you are in fact operating outside the contract.

Just because you can fool a 10 year old into justifying your actions, does not mean you can fool the rest of us.

Not all contracts are legal, the courts decide if the contract was legally binding,

I have contended that the whole tethering thing is not legal from the beginning sir. Lighten up. I contend if I pay for Data and abide by reasonable use then it should not matter if I tether or not.

They want to make all us pay extra to use the Data we already paid for because its on a Laptop through the phone.

Double Dipping. If I use 3gb a month on my Iphone and part of that is on the Laptop it should not cost extra its reasonable.



Oh and my lawyer is 11 YO LOL :p


Of course At&t will not take me to court, they will however take the idiots using more then 20Gb a month tethering since they make good examples of abuse..........................Scapegoats and morons to think they could get way with 90 and 120GB a month usage.

alhedges
Mar 19, 2011, 11:27 AM
Thank you. Beat me to it. It is not illegal to break a contract, and in fact, some very prominent scholars and judges advocate breaking contracts in certain situations,

And for good reason....but this is not one of those reasons (which tend to involve commercial contracts for the sale/purchase of supplies used in production or manufacturing). This is more like breaking a lease.


Additionally, just because something is in a contract doesn't mean it will be enforced in court. A contract is worth only as much as the court that hear it says it is worth.

Yes, this is true, and that's why they teach it to you in law school. *But* that gives the misleading impression that this is common; in actual fact, it's not common at all. Almost all actual contract litigation involves a dispute about whether some action was covered by the contract or not. No one will reform a contract because it calls for you to pay for an extra convenience that doesn't happen to cost the provider anything. You might as well try to overturn a lease containing a rental increase by proving that the landlord's costs didn't go up. Except in the .0001% of leases covered by specific rent control laws, this won't fly. If it's too much, you move to a place with a more reasonable rent.


I also think there is a viable case to be made against AT&T for misrepresentation (advertising unlimited data, but imposing limitations buried in the contract), which would make the contract voidable.

Think harder.
1. AT&T isn't going after people with unlimited data plans. They are going after people who tether. Tethering has never been permitted as part of the unlimited data plan, and this has always been clear; the "data pro/plus" plans were introduced with tethering, and switching to one of those plans was a requirement of tethering.

2. Even if you were right about misleading advertising for the unlimited plan (and I don't think you are), what good does voiding the contract do? It leaves you with an AT&T phone that you can't use because you don't have a K. Of course you could switch to Verizon, but that would require $2-$300 for a new phone and a new two year K. And Verizon's K is more restrictive than AT&T's - it still costs $20 more to tether, but you only get 2GB rather than 4GB.

Perhaps you could then jailbreak and avoid the extra cost - but that would assume that Verizon wouldn't do the same thing AT&T is doing now.

So it's not really a great remedy.

It would be much more useful in those European countries that already have several iPhone carriers...although they already tend not to charge for tethering.


Verizon was sued for something similar and settled for $1 million and a bunch of other things. They had advertised unlimited data, but put in the contract that this data was not to be used fir mms, video, etc. A bit more extreme, but similar.
Well, except that this case is about tethering, not about unlimited data. And that AT&T's advertising is not misleading and they reference the 5GB cap in their terms of service. And don't use the term "unlimited."

So it doesn't look that similar to me.

MacWho02
Mar 19, 2011, 11:55 AM
#64

Let's try explaining it this way...

When you subscribe to cable, you pick a package that provides you with the channels that you want. There are various packages, but ultimately it's all just video streaming over a cable (bits in this day and age, not analog)...

Based on yours and others arguements, why can't we all just pay for basic cable and get all 500+ channels plus the premium channels for free? Very simply, you're paying for a package with specific features....

With your cellular service, you chose a package that meets your needs. You have 3 options for data plans at this point, well, 4 technically...

1) Your grandfathered unlimited plan

2) 250mb

3) Data Pro 2GB

4) Data Pro 2GB + Tethering 2GB for a total of 4GB....

Tethering is not the same as using the data on your device, essentially tethering is using your phone as a modem. You data plan (which I'm assuming is either unlimited or 250mb) does not include the feature of using your phone as a modem, that's what the extra charge is for....

If you want to tether, you need to pay for the appropriate package. Just like if you want HBO, Showtime, or HDTV you need to pay for the appropriate cable package...

WHAT A STUPID LOGIC

cable you get extra contents/feature for paying extra (HBO, Showtime, HDTV)
with data, you dont get any extra (data =data)
from what i learned and remember, 1 will always be and =1.
so if you paid for 2GB data, it should be 2GB data no matter how you wanna used it.

Rodimus Prime
Mar 19, 2011, 12:03 PM
WHAT A STUPID LOGIC

cable you get extra contents/feature for paying extra (HBO, Showtime, HDTV)
with data, you dont get any extra (data =data)
from what i learned and remember, 1 will always be and =1.
so if you paid for 2GB data, it should be 2GB data no matter how you wanna used it.

Then why should we pay for voice minutes. I can promise you that is just Data and they are not using an Analog signal to transmit the voice so it is data (1's and 0's)

Remember a computer can do a lot more things at the same time over the internet than a phone. Generally speaking a computer is going to be able to and will draw more data over the same length of time putting more strain on the network. It is the huge multitasking that computer causes the problems on.

MacWho02
Mar 19, 2011, 12:18 PM
Then why should we pay for voice minutes. I can promise you that is just Data and they are not using an Analog signal to transmit the voice so it is data (1's and 0's)

Remember a computer can do a lot more things at the same time over the internet than a phone. Generally speaking a computer is going to be able to and will draw more data over the same length of time putting more strain on the network. It is the huge multitasking that computer causes the problems on.
your logic doesnt justified the meaning of data 1=1. bro

Thesand212
Mar 19, 2011, 12:34 PM
You do realize the phone, aka the system, was designed to do this and that AT&T is going out of their way to charge people double for what they are paying for?

It would be no different if your home ISP tacked on a $20+ charge each month for having a router at home.

I'm waiting for the class action lawsuit as this is wrong. The service that people have bought is not somehow giving them more bandwidth or a higher amount of download data simply because they are tethering through the phone. The phone can only download so fast to begin with so any device you connect to it will still be limited.

Why are you just taking it like it's okay, this is wrong. That's why i can't buy an iphone

gnasher729
Mar 19, 2011, 12:56 PM
I've never really understood this. If I'm paying for unlimited data, why does it matter how I choose to distribute it? What if i used the same amount of data on my phone as when I tether my iPad? It's flawed, greedy logic on their part. I know it's in the contract not to use it blah blah, but that doesn't mean it makes sense.

First, I would say that it should be one hundred percent illegal to sell an "unlimited data" plan that is not unlimited - it is fine with me to say have three data plans "low usage", "medium usage" and "high usage" at different cost and then specify somewhere _exactly_ what the user gets for each plan.

Second, it should be illegal to demand excessive payments for exceeding the limits of a data plan. I would find it acceptable to offer that data access is cut off at the limit, slowed down significantly when exceeding the limit, automatically update to the next higher plan or something similar, but a situation where a user can use twice the limit and pays ten times the price is unacceptable.

But now to your question: A company could offer, just as an example "up to four GB per month as fast as we can supply it, and then unlimited data at recduced speed of 100 kbit per second up to 50 MB per day". Many customers will take this offer. On average they will use a lot less than four GB per month. Because of that, the company can offer this deal at a price that is below the cost of actually providing 4 GB of data per month! If the average use is 1.3 GB per month, then the company can charge every user for the actual cost of 1.5 GB per month and make a good profit. If the company charged each of the users for the actual cost of 4 GB then they would make tons of money except that customers wouldn't buy it because it is too expensive.

The important point is that the cost to the end user can be lowered because the average use is much less than 4 GB. Now assume that people who don't tether use 0.9 GB on average and people who tether use 2.7 GB on average. And half the customers tether, so the average use is 1.8 GB. If the company offers one contract only (tethering allowed) they have to charge everyone for the 1.8 GB average use. If the company offers two different contracts (tethering allowed or not allowed, everything else is the same. Obviously the contract that doesn't allow tethering can be sold a lot cheaper than the one that allows tethering, because the average cost to the data provider for these contracts is lower.

Now you could say that maybe every user should be charged _exactly_ for the amount they use, which would make perfectly sense. Except that measuring the exact usage also costs money. Every time a little bit of data is moved to your phone the exact amount would have to be recorded somewhere. So the cost would now be fair, but a lot higher. The system as it is (different prices for tethered and untethered) is relatively cheap and reasonably, but not completely fair.

So you think you shouldn't pay more for tethering. Well, maybe a competitor offers _only_ a contract where tethering is always allowed, which is precisely what you want. That competitor would have to base the price on the cost for the average data use of _all_ its customers. Its plan would be in cost between the untethered and the tethered price of the first company. People using tethering would like the deal, people not using tethering would hate it. So this second company would initially get more customers who tether (like you). That means their average data use per user is higher, so the company needs to charge more, until only people who tether use it.

I've written to my members of Congress to get the FCC to step in and forbid extra charges for tethering. If I pay for 2 GB of data, it's irrelevant HOW I consume it. I've paid for it and it's mine to use as I see fit! The idea of charging ANY fee based on my method of connecting is asinine! If I go over my data limit, either with the phone OR notebook, I get charged for it. AT&T could actually MAKE money, legitimately, from excess data usage.

Ask them to change asinine way how car insurance works as well. I shouldn't pay for the risk that my car an my driving ability and style represents, but only for the damage that I actually cause. Wait a second... We don't need any car insurance at all, because that is exactly what you pay without insurance.


I don't think they know crap.. They are basing it on usage, and if you admit to them on the phone after your hate mail message. PLAY STUPID!!! Ask them when the last time you "tethered".... And to what device. What Mac address? If they can't answer.. Ask for someone who can..

Here is dangerous ground: AT&T can identify you (roughly, may not be hundred percent correct, and without having legal evidence of tethering and send you a message). You then either change your contract and pay for tethering, or you stop tethering and don't pay for it, or you can continue tethering and say "AT&T has no proof". In that third case, AT&T can and will collect and produce evidence, and they can then claim that you have been knowingly and even after their friendly reminder continued to breach the contract.

Howdr
Mar 19, 2011, 01:09 PM
Then why should we pay for voice minutes. I can promise you that is just Data and they are not using an Analog signal to transmit the voice so it is data (1's and 0's)

Remember a computer can do a lot more things at the same time over the internet than a phone. Generally speaking a computer is going to be able to and will draw more data over the same length of time putting more strain on the network. It is the huge multitasking that computer causes the problems on.


The phones are computers, all Modern smart phones are computers, this argument of multitasking:

My Iphone 4 has a 1ghz processor, 512 ram, that does multitasking and is more powerful then the Laptops of just 5 years ago.

Further more the new Iphone is reported to have a Dual Core Processor, it may be more powerful then the Netbooks of today with single core.

Also the idea that some how a laptop will use "More data and strain" is ridiculous nonsense, Data flows at certain rates no matter what is on the line.

there is a cap always and you use only X amount

Friend X amount is X amount

Data = Data

marksman
Mar 19, 2011, 01:11 PM
They can offer an unlimited data plan that is truely unlimited for everyone if they want..

It would just cost $85 a month. Why don't you people understand this... It doesn't matter what you want... Nothing in the world requires them to provide an unlimited data plan for $30 a month for crying out loud.

If they do what many of you say they should be forced to do then the price would go up 200%-250% without a question.

So people who don't use excessive data would be paying $85 a month for 1 gig.

It is like none of you actually think any of this through before you stick your flag pole in these ridiculous positions.

AT&T can do what you want, the cost of them doing it though, is that the price for unlimited access will go up dramatically... And there is nothing you can do or say about that.

By the way for those of you who think Jailbreaking and tethering is just breaking a contract, you should realize a very strong case could be made for theft of services, which is a crime.

If I have a contract to come in the grocery store every week and pick up 2 cases of soda for my mini-mart, and one week I also pick up a case of beer, without paying for it. I am not just breaking my contract, I am stealing.

blueroom
Mar 19, 2011, 01:36 PM
I support this.

The number of corporate shills and self-righteous pricks on here is unbelievable.

Oh wait, I'm already a thief because I jailbroke to change my SMS tones and add a calander for my upcoming cases to the lockscreen. :rolleyes:

I'm not a shill and I dabbled with jailbreaking my iOS devices and ultimately restored them to factory firmware shortly thereafter. Is it really worth the relative instability for some trinkets?

Strangely Roger/Fido (not sure if Telus does) here in Canada offers free tethering for data plans over 1GB, usually we lag the US in our mobile plans. :)

QuarterSwede
Mar 19, 2011, 01:41 PM
Is [jailbreaking] really worth the relative instability for some trinkets?

It hasn't been unstable in quite a while. Even Winterboard, I hear, is much better. I just leave that off though and have had no issues regarding stability. It's just as reliable as stock only with a lot more customization. Occasionally you'll find a rogue app but they're few and far between and as long as you're careful with what you download there is no problem.

Howdr
Mar 19, 2011, 02:13 PM
Glad to see the productive turn this thread has taken...as all threads on MR do.

Anyway. I'm alright with the news. I pay $45 a month for tethering, why shouldn't you also?

Because we were GF in with unlimited at $30 ( you pay 25 plus 20) and At&t will not allow us to ad tether for $15 or $20, the only option is to Opt out of the unlimited..............

So who's the prick? At&t is.

Its an underhanded way to get everyone off of unlimited what a ploy!

Plus why should we have to pay more to use Data? We already pay per month for Data.

I'm not a shill and I dabbled with jailbreaking my iOS devices and ultimately restored them to factory firmware shortly thereafter. Is it really worth the relative instability for some trinkets? then you did something wrong when you JB, its been stable for awhile when done right.

And Its legal

Strangely Roger/Fido (not sure if Telus does) here in Canada offers free tethering for data plans over 1GB, usually we lag the US in our mobile plans. :) Hmm, I just responded to poster that said it would cost 10's to hundreds more a month to provide unlimited with tether, again the Americans prove our logic is greatly flawed.

Since the 2000's America has dumbed down and we the people bend over and accept anything.................

uiop.
Mar 19, 2011, 03:19 PM
Because we were GF in with unlimited at $30 ( you pay 25 plus 20) and At&t will not allow us to ad tether for $15 or $20, the only option is to Opt out of the unlimited..............

So who's the prick? At&t is.

Its an underhanded way to get everyone off of unlimited what a ploy!

Plus why should we have to pay more to use Data? We already pay per month for Data.

I don't understand the great allure of unlimited data. Granted 2GB a month may not be suitable for everyone, but its not like you are forced to pay $200 in the event that you do go over. $10. And another 1GB. And AT&T sends you multiple messages warning if you are near your limit. The people who need more than 2GB rightfully should be paying more as they're the ones using the most data. Something just doesn't sit right if you use a couple hundred megabytes of data a day on your phone.

You bring up a good point with your last statement though. It doesn't make sense that we have to pay more to use the same data, even if we don't use it all in one month.

marksman
Mar 19, 2011, 03:24 PM
How in the heck did you make up this price? ( Ficticous?) There is an Enterprise unlimited Data and voice for $45 a month

This is based on what?
You have no basis for this statement, we are not the ones who advertised for 2 years unlimited Data plans at At&t, then decided to Grandfather in people to keep the business, its At&t who did, why should we not expect At&t to provide the product they claim to provide?

Is is not a lie to provide unlimited Data then fine people for using it?

Sorry I do not see your point?

AT&T sets the prices based on average usage. If people tether, the average usage goes up. When the average usage goes up, they will charge more to cover their increased expenses and maintain their profit.

It is not rocket science. It has nothing to do with how much data one person uses or even how much they say you can use. The only thing that ultimately impacts the price are how much profite they want, and how much the average person uses.

How much the average person uses.
How much the average person uses.
How much the average person uses.

When you add in things that noticeably cause how much the average person uses to go up (like tethering as nboody is going to start tethering and use less monthly data so you guarantee it goes up), then the price has to go up. It is that simple.

morfeas-dsl-
Mar 19, 2011, 03:31 PM
can they transfer users to different data plans just like that?
Here in Greece doing something like that would be out of the question and the company would have serious penalties to face .

The company (vodafone GR ) that i have contract with started locking out the tethering future and asking 10 euros per month in order to use it, but fortunately another one started giving it for free so many iphone users have changed mobile operator.

I paid for my iphone data plan and i want to use it anyway i like.

Howdr
Mar 19, 2011, 03:37 PM
Just not worth it

skestes
Mar 19, 2011, 04:14 PM
Glad to see the productive turn this thread has taken...as all threads on MR do.

Anyway. I'm alright with the news. I pay $45 a month for tethering, why shouldn't you also?

The real question is why should you have to?

Cutwolf
Mar 19, 2011, 04:35 PM
And for good reason....but this is not one of those reasons (which tend to involve commercial contracts for the sale/purchase of supplies used in production or manufacturing). This is more like breaking a lease.

Yes, this is true, and that's why they teach it to you in law school. *But* that gives the misleading impression that this is common; in actual fact, it's not common at all. Almost all actual contract litigation involves a dispute about whether some action was covered by the contract or not. No one will reform a contract because it calls for you to pay for an extra convenience that doesn't happen to cost the provider anything. You might as well try to overturn a lease containing a rental increase by proving that the landlord's costs didn't go up. Except in the .0001% of leases covered by specific rent control laws, this won't fly. If it's too much, you move to a place with a more reasonable rent.

Think harder.
1. AT&T isn't going after people with unlimited data plans. They are going after people who tether. Tethering has never been permitted as part of the unlimited data plan, and this has always been clear; the "data pro/plus" plans were introduced with tethering, and switching to one of those plans was a requirement of tethering.

2. Even if you were right about misleading advertising for the unlimited plan (and I don't think you are), what good does voiding the contract do? It leaves you with an AT&T phone that you can't use because you don't have a K. Of course you could switch to Verizon, but that would require $2-$300 for a new phone and a new two year K. And Verizon's K is more restrictive than AT&T's - it still costs $20 more to tether, but you only get 2GB rather than 4GB.

Perhaps you could then jailbreak and avoid the extra cost - but that would assume that Verizon wouldn't do the same thing AT&T is doing now.

So it's not really a great remedy.

It would be much more useful in those European countries that already have several iPhone carriers...although they already tend not to charge for tethering.

Well, except that this case is about tethering, not about unlimited data. And that AT&T's advertising is not misleading and they reference the 5GB cap in their terms of service. And don't use the term "unlimited."

So it doesn't look that similar to me.

This is about unlimited data, because if consumers were under the impression that they were paying for the data itself (aka the right to use an unlimited amount of it), restricting that use makes it no longer truly unlimited -- it is unlimited under certain circumstances. That is how it is similar to the Verizon case. The Verizon suit that settled was that by restricting the uses of unlimited data, it wasn't unlimited. Technically, however, the amount of data was unlimited -- so long as you only browsed.

I think the key question in court would be whether the unlimited data advertised by att implied that there were no limitations on data usage, both quantity and type. Verizon settled to avoid this question. I suspect att would do the same.

You're right that the remedy would probably be limited to a refund of ETF to people who had terminated due to this previously, but that's the biggest problem anyway. Att is basically saying "you can't use your data how you see fit, and if you don't like it, pay us hundreds more to leave." Att can certainly run their business how they see fit, but not many courts are going to look favorably on what amounts to hostage taking.

Howdr
Mar 19, 2011, 04:57 PM
This is about unlimited data, because if consumers were under the impression that they were paying for the data itself (aka the right to use an unlimited amount of it), restricting that use makes it no longer truly unlimited -- it is unlimited under certain circumstances. That is how it is similar to the Verizon case. The Verizon suit that settled was that by restricting the uses of unlimited data, it wasn't unlimited. Technically, however, the amount of data was unlimited -- so long as you only browsed.

Yes the main point::::::

I think the key question in court would be whether the unlimited data advertised by att implied that there were no limitations on data usage, both quantity and type. Verizon settled to avoid this question. I suspect att would do the same.

If its unlimited its Unlimited, since At&t has 2gb and 200mb plans its not that At&t has trouble defining what the plan is.

If unlimited means 5gb then they could of called it "5GB Data Plan" they didn't and still don't, this is At&t's downfall.

People need to wake up and stop taking At&t's side, they are not the perfect little company, they provide 71 million with wireless and have a lot of power over US but they are not above being responsible for what they do.

If they get more customers by signing them to Unlimited Data plans then they are obligated to deliver it.

I do not agree to the abuse of unlimited

but I also do not agree I should pay extra to use my USB cord to connect my phone to my computer ( like for Itunes) and then the internet is used from the phone as well ( Tether)

Lifesuxsbad
Mar 19, 2011, 05:18 PM
I have a friend who uses his iPhone to tether as does his girlfriend. She hardly ever tethers and he does it all the time. She has gotten the Text from AT&T and he hasn't. In fact he used 29 GB's last month tethering movies and all sorts of things to his home computers. I am thinking the text's must be random if she got one and he hasn't. He averages about 10 to 12 gigs a month at a minimum. Yeah he is abusing it bad!!! lol I myself have only tethered a small amount and haven't received any text or email from AT&T.

alhedges
Mar 19, 2011, 05:22 PM
This is about unlimited data, because if consumers were under the impression that they were paying for the data itself (aka the right to use an unlimited amount of it), restricting that use makes it no longer truly unlimited -- it is unlimited under certain circumstances. That is how it is similar to the Verizon case. The Verizon suit that settled was that by restricting the uses of unlimited data, it wasn't unlimited. Technically, however, the amount of data was unlimited -- so long as you only browsed.

I think the key question in court would be whether the unlimited data advertised by att implied that there were no limitations on data usage, both quantity and type. Verizon settled to avoid this question. I suspect att would do the same.

I don't know why they would - look at their TOS:

AT&T DataPlus/AT&T DataPro plans with Tethering may be used to tether such SMARTPHONE and BlackBerry devices to a personal computer. If you are on a data plan that does not include a monthly megabyte allowance and additional data usage rates, the parties agree that AT&T has the right to impose additional charges if you use more than 5 GB in a month. Prior to the imposition of any additional charges, AT&T shall provide you with notice and you shall have the right to terminate your Service.

That seems really clear to me. (There's a separate section prohibiting tethering):

Data Services sold for use with AT&T RIM BlackBerry devices, and SMARTPHONEs may not be used with other devices, including but not limited to, personal computers, PC Data Cards and the like, either by tethering devices together, by SIM card transfer or any other means.







You're right that the remedy would probably be limited to a refund of ETF to people who had terminated due to this previously, but that's the biggest problem anyway. Att is basically saying "you can't use your data how you see fit, and if you don't like it, pay us hundreds more to leave." Att can certainly run their business how they see fit, but not many courts are going to look favorably on what amounts to hostage taking.[/QUOTE]
I do agree that they couldn't make you pay the ETF.

bradl
Mar 19, 2011, 05:48 PM
I have a friend who uses his iPhone to tether as does his girlfriend. She hardly ever tethers and he does it all the time. She has gotten the Text from AT&T and he hasn't. In fact he used 29 GB's last month tethering movies and all sorts of things to his home computers. I am thinking the text's must be random if she got one and he hasn't. He averages about 10 to 12 gigs a month at a minimum. Yeah he is abusing it bad!!! lol I myself have only tethered a small amount and haven't received any text or email from AT&T.

Just for a 'me too' story..

Just checked my bill for this last billing cycle. For all of the data that I use (including any tethering), I've totaled 51.3MB. That's it. My SO, on the other hand, with all of her data (read: netflix, Farmville), her total? 48.8MB.

My 51.3MB is consists mainly of (in order of app with most data used): an air traffic control scanner app (LiveATC), checking the weather and airport delays, the occasional Ebay search, and tethering for work for no more than 1 hour, once per month. No text message to me or my SO from ATT on this, nor do I really expect one. We are on a family plan with unlimited data. And with that little data being used compared to others tethering for movies and such, I think I'm pretty much in the clear to continue what I am doing.

BL.

Cinemagic
Mar 19, 2011, 07:59 PM
I've said it before and will say it again: AT&T is cheating its customers by charging separate for a tethering plan. You pay for data. Period. If you are forced to pay for tethering data in addition to your paid data plan, you're paying twice for the very same data. If AT&T wants more money, then charge more for data. But they shouldn't do it by charging twice for the very same thing. Who cares if someone tethers and someone else doesn't? Does it really make a difference if you watch Netfilx over your iPhone or iPad or computer? AT&T simply sees an opportunity to rob their customers and that's what they're doing. I really wish that an attorney would institute a class action law suit against AT&T for this practice. That day may come.

QuarterSwede
Mar 19, 2011, 08:04 PM
I've said it before and will say it again: AT&T is cheating its customers by charging separate for a tethering plan. You pay for data. Period. If you are forced to pay for tethering data in addition to your paid data plan, you're paying twice for the very same data. If AT&T wants more money, then charge more for data. But they shouldn't do it by charging twice for the very same thing. Who cares if someone tethers and someone else doesn't? Does it really make a difference if you watch Netfilx over your iPhone or iPad or computer? AT&T simply sees an opportunity to rob their customers and that's what they're doing. I really wish that an attorney would institute a class action law suit against AT&T for this practice. That day may come.
Yep, it's double dipping at it's finest simply because only a few cell companies have so much control over the industry. I also think a class action suit or something will happen over it.

kindaobsessed
Mar 19, 2011, 08:10 PM
I've said it before and will say it again: AT&T is cheating its customers by charging separate for a tethering plan. You pay for data. Period. If you are forced to pay for tethering data in addition to your paid data plan, you're paying twice for the very same data. If AT&T wants more money, then charge more for data. But they shouldn't do it by charging twice for the very same thing. Who cares if someone tethers and someone else doesn't? Does it really make a difference if you watch Netfilx over your iPhone or iPad or computer? AT&T simply sees an opportunity to rob their customers and that's what they're doing. I really wish that an attorney would institute a class action law suit against AT&T for this practice. That day may come.

Actually they are not, I am paying for the tethering and I get 4GB not 2....

ferrous
Mar 19, 2011, 09:14 PM
ATT sucks and they'll do anything to up their profits. :rolleyes:

Howdr
Mar 19, 2011, 09:25 PM
Actually they are not, I am paying for the tethering and I get 4GB not 2....
I have unlimited and cannot pay for it............At&t wont let me unless I give up unlimited for the 2gb+2b plan and if I go over 4gb then I pay more

Unlimited with a $20 charge would still be cheaper so yes they would be raping me.:rolleyes:

kindaobsessed
Mar 19, 2011, 09:43 PM
I have unlimited and cannot pay for it............At&t wont let me unless I give up unlimited for the 2gb+2b plan and if I go over 4gb then I pay more

Unlimited with a $20 charge would still be cheaper so yes they would be raping me.:rolleyes:

I had the unlimited for 3yrs .... The most I use is 1gb...I have cable Internet at the house. The mobile Internet is not intended to replace your home Internet. It is mobile. The only thing I wish ATT will do is have rollover data :)

wpotere
Mar 19, 2011, 09:48 PM
I have unlimited and cannot pay for it............At&t wont let me unless I give up unlimited for the 2gb+2b plan and if I go over 4gb then I pay more

Unlimited with a $20 charge would still be cheaper so yes they would be raping me.:rolleyes:

Got news for you anyway, once you udate your phone to a new one, you will lose it anyway. Unlimited data is going away and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

OneMike
Mar 19, 2011, 10:13 PM
Got news for you anyway, once you udate your phone to a new one, you will lose it anyway. Unlimited data is going away and there is nothing you can do to stop it.

Not going to happen

VWRudeBoyGLI
Mar 19, 2011, 10:58 PM
Why does all carriers charge you this freaking tethering/hotspot when you are already paying for the data plan and using the same data plan to use this feature. I think we should all sue cellphone provides for charging for this stupid tethering/hotspot.

payup
Mar 19, 2011, 11:07 PM
AT&T provides data plan and internet service, so they are an ISP in this case.

As long as data isn't used for illegal activities (by local/state/federal laws, not AT&T makeshift laws that is), I can do whatever I want to do with it once it reaches my phone, if I want to tether my phone by some magical non AT&T/Apple means, I will certainly do so. They should not be allowed to monitor type of data transmitted by any means, that's equal to invading privacy. However technically, since they own the data flow, they get away with this crap. There need to be laws that govern ISPs' privacy policies to prevent that.

They can still offer a $45 solution to whoever is scared to JB their device as a convenient feature - nothing wrong with that either.

uiop.
Mar 19, 2011, 11:35 PM
AT&T provides data plan and internet service, so they are an ISP in this case.

As long as data isn't used for illegal activities (by local/state/federal laws, not AT&T makeshift laws that is), I can do whatever I want to do with it once it reaches my phone, if I want to tether my phone by some magical non AT&T/Apple means, I will certainly do so. They should not be allowed to monitor type of data transmitted by any means, that's equal to invading privacy. However technically, since they own the data flow, they get away with this crap. There need to be laws that govern ISPs' privacy policies to prevent that.

They can still offer a $45 solution to whoever is scared to JB their device as a convenient feature - nothing wrong with that either.

I'm willing to bet that somewhere in the terms of service you agreed to in which your service was initiated upon, there was a section barring unsanctioned use of the data, such as that of which data is tethered to a computer without an official plan, or else AT&T wouldn't be cracking down on unauthorized tethering. So actually, sorry to say it, you cannot do whatever you want with it since you agreed to those terms of the service that is being provided to you.

And I'm quite certain people being "scared" of jailbreaking their iPhones is not really what results in them paying extra for the service.

uiop.
Mar 19, 2011, 11:37 PM
This entire argument truly is ridiculous. Do you think your home ISP would be perfectly fine with you setting up a public wifi network for your entire neighborhood to use, resulting in data usage that is exponential than intended? No.

I can't stand AT&T just as much as the next person in this thread and would gladly switch to Verizon if their coverage was better in my area, but the people butt-hurt that their service provider wants them to pay for a feature they're currently not paying for really makes no sense to me. Are we all supposed to pay for you instead? Stop being cheap.

Full of Win
Mar 20, 2011, 12:39 AM
This entire argument truly is ridiculous. Do you think your home ISP would be perfectly fine with you setting up a public wifi network for your entire neighborhood to use, resulting in data usage that is exponential than intended? No.

I can't stand AT&T just as much as the next person in this thread and would gladly switch to Verizon if their coverage was better in my area, but the people butt-hurt that their service provider wants them to pay for a feature they're currently not paying for really makes no sense to me. Are we all supposed to pay for you instead? Stop being cheap.

Are the people who tether in the right ? No

Is AT&T in the right ? No.

The problem is, AT&T will not let many of us add this feature to our current unlimited plans. Why does AT&T not keep the so-called unlimited plans as is (with 5GB soft cap / fair use) and add the same tethering plan offered on other plans for when we want to use it as a hotspot? To many of us, it seems like they are using this as bait to make us switch plans which they no longer find useful.

Personally, I respect the 5 GB soft cap on the iPhone plan. Sometimes I'll go over, but it's usually 500 MB, if I do. I just want the option to add the hotspot feature without having to change my data allocation for iphone-data usage. To me it's a reasonable request.

Georgexm
Mar 20, 2011, 12:45 AM
Somehow this doesn't surprise me at all. However, this is one more reason to stick at 4.1.0.

So far, the only real reason for 4.3.0 is Personal Hotspot, but since that is being monitored, then, I'll be happy to stick in 4.1.0 and give the finger to AT&T.

So if u have OS 4.1 this won't b q problem?

Rodimus Prime
Mar 20, 2011, 01:03 AM
So if u have OS 4.1 this won't b q problem?

No people are reading way to much in to version numbers. AT&T is just starting to really crack down on tethering is all that is happening.

MyopicPaideia
Mar 20, 2011, 04:04 AM
Ok, don't get me wrong here - I'm American and proud of it - but this AT&T and Verizon thing is absolutely ludicrous. In most European countries, there is not a single model of phone or tablet that is not available unlocked for full price. All carriers operate on the same GSM technology, so all devices sold here are compatible for use with any one of the carriers servicing that country.

What this creates is a competitive market where a carrier trying to pull the backhanded obvious price gouging that US carriers - in this case AT&T and Verizon - get away with everyday would swept aside by competitors inside the financial quarter!

When iOS 4.3 came out here in Sweden for example, my current carrier, 3, didn't publish new tethering plans. It just worked, and it takes away from my data usage limit that I already subscribe to. The industry standard in this country is 10 GB and even then you don't get charged extra for going over, your speed is just crippled to about one third of the bandwidth.

The other side of the coin is that a contract is a contract. If I sign up for a two year contract, I am bound to pay the balance of it no matter what. There is no such thing as an early termination fee. If I want to terminate my contract I have to buy it out in full.

Fair is fair though - I know I am not going to get any nasty surprises on my bill, and I know that the data I pay for is truly mine to use as I see fit. If my phone offers tethering, I get to use that function.

The speed crippling feature does a much better job of curtailing data hoggers than charging more for overages, because things like streaming music and video, and downloading torrents are either not practical or even possible at the choked bandwidth that results after you go over. Plus it is an automatic bandwidth manager, ensuring that there is enough to give good reliable bandwidth for every customer up to the limit they have paid for, and not those that would hog bandwidth and then try to sue or complain about unfair prices for overages.

Most iPhone plans here, if you decide to go subsidized with a long term contract, have at least 5 GB of data included on it and at regular exchange rates start at $50 a month for voice/data service. The even nicer tng is that you can use that $50 however you want and can buy services, like sms/text packages, international calling packages, TV services, etc. prices from $2 to $10 and then you use whatever you have left for voice charges that typically have a $0.10 initiation fee with $0.05 a minute.

I just got an iPhone 4 subsidized that I didn't have to pay a cent for, but instead signed up for a 2 year plan for $80 a month that includes 10GB of data, and using that $80 I purchased an sms package of 1,000 messages sent for $5 a month and another $15 a month for an awesome international calling plan that gives me $0.05 a minute to the USA where all of my family still is. I can tether wirelessly on my morning commute to my iPad 2 without restriction, so no need for a 3G iPad.

Sorry for the long and drawn out post, and I'm definitely not trying to say "look at how I have it compared to you guys" but rather highlight how the lack of competition in the US cell phone industry is just shafting the consumer royally.

The whole point is that what the carriers in the US are doing is bordering on criminal in my eyes, but you guys just have to grin and bear it, it seems like. Very sad. All of you who are saying that you pay it, so why shouldn't everyone else - have completely lost sight of the point here. You guys are being totally taken advantage of by monopolistic-like practices.

The combination of fragmented carrier network technologies and greed has left you all trapped. If you want a certain type of phone, you have a very limited carrier choice, and as such are vulnerable to these large corporations.

The EU may be an entity bogged down with regulation, but they do come down hard on the corporations in defence of the consumer, which I for one think is a good thing. Heck, Apple can't even sell refurbished products here because of the stringent regulations that those products can't meet, even with the 1 year guarantee!

I know it isn't going to change anytime soon, but it gets really frustrating as an American reading all this crap you guys have to go through back home getting raped through the rear end and being forced to resort to jailbreaking and getting around the system to not have to spend a ridiculous amount of money just for your phone, because I too agree with some posters that these iDevices are best used the way they are intended, without interference from outside third parties like data/cell phone carriers.

MyopicPaideia
Mar 20, 2011, 06:15 AM
This entire argument truly is ridiculous. Do you think your home ISP would be perfectly fine with you setting up a public wifi network for your entire neighborhood to use, resulting in data usage that is exponential than intended? No.

This is not even close to an accurate analogy. Common sense should rule. Of course you are not going to be allowed to share your home network with the whole neighborhood as you purchased that connection for your 1 household. This would be accurate if you were therthering the whole commuter train with your personal 3G connection.

But if your are just tethering one or two of your personal computing devices, this is a normal and common sense use, I'm sure your would have to agree...right?

bahamallama
Mar 20, 2011, 07:03 AM
I have been streaming pandora nonstop since I read this friday.
I have a jailbroken iphone and have mywi.
I don't abuse it but would like it rather than having to pay to have my iphone on AT&T, my wife's iphone on AT&T, then my iPad on AT&T and if my son wants to get online with his laptop in the car, another fee, I've only gone over 5gb once in the many years I've been on the iphone. I have never even used a gig on my ipad but paid for unlimited, if they want to charge me a tethering fee for an additional $20, then let the data roll over too that way if I did go over a month I didn't get charged, I haven't asked for money back when I haven't gone over?

This may be a possible easy fix for mywi or someone, my guess is they are checking the packets, not the bandwidth. They probably are flagging people who didn't upgrade their phones, then they are looking for high bandwidth users, then inspecting packets, if mywi can rewrap the packets to take out the originator, spoof an applications wrapper like pandora or netflix, then unwrap when returned problem solved. They could do it as safari as well.

when my contract is up, I may abandon the iphone all together if there are other phone that you can tether without a fee (ie, android).

If enough people vote with their pockets and leave, Apple is the only one that can put pressure on AT&T and eventually Verizon to change these rape your customer policies and just get flat rates for data, no matter how you use it.

Just a thought and my 2 cents.

wpotere
Mar 20, 2011, 07:42 AM
Not going to happen

Care to further explain how you plan to keep it? Unless you are planning on keeping the same phone forever, it will happen.

yg17
Mar 20, 2011, 09:28 AM
Care to further explain how you plan to keep it? Unless you are planning on keeping the same phone forever, it will happen.

I just upgraded my phone last month and kept unlimited data. In fact, the guy at the place where I bought my phone screwed up and removed unlimited data, and when I called AT&T to inquire about getting it back, since I had it before, they happily switched me back to unlimited.

manman
Mar 20, 2011, 10:21 AM
No people are reading way to much in to version numbers. AT&T is just starting to really crack down on tethering is all that is happening.

if by 'really' you mean 'kinda' then yes.

uiop.
Mar 20, 2011, 10:24 AM
This is not even close to an accurate analogy. Common sense should rule. Of course you are not going to be allowed to share your home network with the whole neighborhood as you purchased that connection for your 1 household. This would be accurate if you were therthering the whole commuter train with your personal 3G connection.

But if your are just tethering one or two of your personal computing devices, this is a normal and common sense use, I'm sure your would have to agree...right?

And with a non-tethering iPhone data package, you purchase the data for one device, with AT&T believing the usage will be 1-2GB a month.

So I don't agree with that statement as its use that was not included as a part of the terms you agreed to with your service.

wpotere
Mar 20, 2011, 10:52 AM
I just upgraded my phone last month and kept unlimited data. In fact, the guy at the place where I bought my phone screwed up and removed unlimited data, and when I called AT&T to inquire about getting it back, since I had it before, they happily switched me back to unlimited.

I stand corrected for now... If you upgrade from an unlimited iPhone to and iPhone you can keep it. I switch to a WP7 phone and unlimited data is not offered so I lost it (called and asked). I do, however, think that they will eventually remove it all together and force the switch. (my opinion)

einmusiker
Mar 20, 2011, 11:08 AM
I stand corrected for now... If you upgrade from an unlimited iPhone to and iPhone you can keep it. I switch to a WP7 phone and unlimited data is not offered so I lost it (called and asked). I do, however, think that they will eventually remove it all together and force the switch. (my opinion)

Another one drinking the AT&T koolaid

CubusX
Mar 20, 2011, 11:10 AM
I hope AT&T starts doing this and all the jailbreakers who go around the system lose their unlimited data, get their phones turned off, and/or get sued for breach of contract by AT&T. Thanks to the jailbreaks using huge amounts of data the unlimited data plan was taken off the table for everyone.

It's America, do not be cheap and lazy. That's not what America was built on, pay for the services you use and stop raping the system. I don't care if you jailbreak because it is legal to do so and it's your equipment, you are using a service for free that states in black and white that there is charge for using it. Doing this is not called called jailbreaking, it called stealing!!!

Stop being a scumbag thief and pay for the services you are using...

einmusiker
Mar 20, 2011, 11:11 AM
I have a friend who uses his iPhone to tether as does his girlfriend. She hardly ever tethers and he does it all the time. She has gotten the Text from AT&T and he hasn't. In fact he used 29 GB's last month tethering movies and all sorts of things to his home computers. I am thinking the text's must be random if she got one and he hasn't. He averages about 10 to 12 gigs a month at a minimum. Yeah he is abusing it bad!!! lol I myself have only tethered a small amount and haven't received any text or email from AT&T.

He will get an email, as he should, but she shouldn't.

Texran
Mar 20, 2011, 11:17 AM
I hate the fact that AT&T cripples my Bluetooth functions to prevent tethering.

Full of Win
Mar 20, 2011, 11:37 AM
what is Brandon ? a telco services ?

It's the name of the phones owner from which the screen shot was obtained. Many JBers like to put something other than the carrier name.

nateo200
Mar 20, 2011, 11:58 AM
Actually the way they are most likely doing this and the way most carriers do it is using some deep packet inspection kit or maybe even a transparent proxy.

They can look for browsing traffic on port 80 then simply pick out any users where the user agent string is that of a computer OS so Windows|Mac|Linux.

2 options to get around it are: either change your browsers UA to that of the iPhone although this will often give you mobile sites or better still send everything down a VPN, that way its encrypted and they can;t see what your doing just how many bytes :-) High VPN usage shouldn't be odd either as the iPhone has a VPN client so you could feasibly be using that.

(Used to work in a carrier designing these systems so I should know!)
This!^^ I thought I was the only one thinking of that!

Anyways carriers need to stop branding built in services as "extras" and features of there own and apple needs to stop bending over and letting AT&T and Verizon violate them. All I care about from carriers like one said is a nice bandwidth thick pipe of 1s and 0s, I want none of your other crap, in fact stop sending me warning txts and messages about crap I don't care about your nothing more than and a bunch of slow linksys WRT54G's just mounted up high and everywhere so stop acting like your the internet security guard. I don't really tether my MacBook as often as I used to but I'm not paying $10 or whatever it is extra to do some quick browsing that uses a miniscule amount of data. Hmm I think I'm going to tether my MacBook and torrent everything of interest now just so I can get one of these txts and rant to some poor customer service guy:D:D:D

CubusX
Mar 20, 2011, 12:31 PM
This!^^ I thought I was the only one thinking of that!

Anyways carriers need to stop branding built in services as "extras" and features of there own and apple needs to stop bending over and letting AT&T and Verizon violate them. All I care about from carriers like one said is a nice bandwidth thick pipe of 1s and 0s, I want none of your other crap, in fact stop sending me warning txts and messages about crap I don't care about your nothing more than and a bunch of slow linksys WRT54G's just mounted up high and everywhere so stop acting like your the internet security guard. I don't really tether my MacBook as often as I used to but I'm not paying $10 or whatever it is extra to do some quick browsing that uses a miniscule amount of data. Hmm I think I'm going to tether my MacBook and torrent everything of interest now just so I can get one of these txts and rant to some poor customer service guy:D:D:D

How is Apple bending over? Lol

Apple is making a huge sum of money because of their device being sold to these carriers. Apple couldn't care any less about what features AT&T and Verizon offer to customers and what it charges.

If you don't want to pay or can't afford the extra $20 a month to tether, you shouldn't have a smart phone.

nateo200
Mar 20, 2011, 12:43 PM
If you don't want to pay or can't afford the extra $20 a month to tether, you shouldn't have a smart phone.

Wow.:eek::eek:

Full of Win
Mar 20, 2011, 12:54 PM
If you don't want to pay or can't afford the extra $20 a month to tether, you shouldn't have a smart phone.

You ignore the fact that AT&T will not add a 4GB tether plan to unlimited iPhone data plans. Until AT&T offer the same 4GB tether plan to ALL iPhone users, many will tether outside of their contract just to keep their existing plans in place. Its not about cheating the system, at least for me it is not.

CubusX
Mar 20, 2011, 01:10 PM
You ignore the fact that AT&T will not add a 4GB tether plan to unlimited iPhone data plans. Until AT&T offer the same 4GB tether plan to ALL iPhone users, many will tether outside of their contract just to keep their existing plans in place. Its not about cheating the system, at least for me it is not.

Unlimited data is a thing of the past, it's coming to end on all the larger networks.

All AT&T needs to do is kill the unlimited data carry overs when contracts are renewed. Guess what? It could be coming and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Where are they going to go? T-Mobile or Sprint for worse service, I think not.

So, you have the unlimited data plan and you are tethering? If your not paying for thethering, you are cheating the system.

Full of Win
Mar 20, 2011, 01:31 PM
Unlimited data is a thing of the past, it's coming to end on all the larger networks.

All AT&T needs to do is kill the unlimited data carry overs when contracts are renewed. Guess what? It could be coming and there is nothing anyone can do about it. Where are they going to go? T-Mobile or Sprint for worse service, I think not.

So, you have the unlimited data plan and you are tethering? If your not paying for thethering, you are cheating the system.
I tether for 10 to 20 MB per month. I guess it's cheating, sure. However I justify it because AT&T will not allow me to add a 4 GB hotspot plan to my iPhone data plan. It's not that I'm trying to avoid a fee, it's just that AT&T will not charge me the fee in the first place. It's not the cost for me, as my phone and iPad data plans total close to 200/month.

Im sure many here would love to add the 4GB hotspot plan to their existing contracts, and not doing so does not mean they are trying to cheat the system.

As for it being unlimited, my contract for the iPhone data plan says I shall not go over 5 GB, and I almost never do. I do not expect unlimited data on my iPhone, I expect what is stipulated in the TOS I signed.

Howdr
Mar 20, 2011, 01:44 PM
I tether for 10 to 20 MB per month. I guess it's cheating, sure. However I justify it because AT&T will not allow me to add a 4 GB hotspot plan to my iPhone data plan. It's not that I'm trying to avoid a fee, it's just that AT&T will not charge me the fee in the first place. It's not the cost for me, as my phone and iPad data plans total close to 200/month.

Im sure many here would love to add the 4GB hotspot plan to their existing contracts, and not doing so does not mean they are trying to cheat the system.

As for it being unlimited, my contract for the iPhone data plan says I shall not go over 5 GB, and I almost never do. I do not expect unlimited data on my iPhone, I expect what is stipulated in the TOS I signed.
I don't think anyone is cheating except for At&t.

So many people are acting like we are in grade school and we have to "Follow the rules" set up to play the game. Guess what? If the rule is not ethical then we should not nor would be expected to follow it.

Soldiers at war are expected to not follow a rule that would be criminal.

At&t sells us an unlimited Data plan, then says in some language that when we go over 5GB of the unlimited data it can be considered abuse.

then goes on to say you can't tether, they have yet to provide any hard proof and facts that people are tethering, just that high data is used.

so whats the truth?

Can At&t tell your tethering?Theory is yes its possible,

Does any customer have a letter proving through showing the traced packets and data is identified ( like in a DNA case) as non phone data? NO

At&t has ( and this is per at&t) decided the high data, or in some cases, Data is being tethered.

This is unacceptable

You can't have a tether with unlimited

this is unacceptable

so I may tether like you at times, but I'm not cheating anyone, I pay my bill, keep the use to 5gb or lower and since I can't have my unlimited with tether I have little choice.

Fight the crap that big companies do, they want it all, your money and your money.

tkambitsch
Mar 20, 2011, 03:12 PM
News Headline: AT&T to buy T-Mobile for $39 Billion

They must figure they can collect from those forced tethering upgrades!:rolleyes:

eyelobes
Mar 20, 2011, 03:41 PM
Option 3; STOP trying to cheat the system, and START using your iDevice the way the manufacturer designed it and the way your carrier supports it. (Is it unfair? YES! Are all of us iPhone users getting hosed, even though there's now two carriers? YES)

And while you're at it, knock off the piracy with the napster/limewire/torrent crap.

(Yeah, I said it! SOMEBODY had to!)

Stop trying to be everyone's moral compass, our governmnet does that enough for us, kthxbye.

dukebound85
Mar 20, 2011, 03:44 PM
Stop trying to be everyone's moral compass, our governmnet does that enough for us, kthxbye.

as opposed to stop trying to rationalize violating a contract you agreed to?

wpotere
Mar 20, 2011, 03:55 PM
Another one drinking the AT&T koolaid

Really? How am I drinking the koolaid? I switched phones and have spoken to several reps as well as a friend that works for the company. Hate to say it, but it is what it is, get over it. You paid for unlimited data limited to the phone and phone only and signed/agreed to a contract. I am willing to bet that they have already consulted their lawyers to see if they have a leg to stand and done risk assessment on it to see if it is worth it. I guess it is considering they are finally taking action. You will be losing your tethering and they will be within their rights to take it. As for the me thinking the unlimited will be going away, they have already made it clear that no longer want it so I can't see it lasting a lot longer. Eventually you will want to upgrade that phone and they will simply say... "sorry, we no longer offer that plan, you will need to select a new plan". You will complain and they will simply wait for you to finish your little tantrum and then you will select a new plan. It has been happening for years and I don't see it changing now. :rolleyes:

eyelobes
Mar 20, 2011, 03:57 PM
as opposed to stop trying to rationalize violating a contract you agreed to?

I'm on Verizon and have been using my unlimited plan as i see fit, on my cell phone for which i paid for and use as i see fit.

Would you like it if Comcast or FiOS or whatever said you can pay for their internet and get 5 mbps but only if you browse the internet, no hulu, no netflix.

Or better yet, here is your cable modem, you can only use our router with it though, and we are going to charge you for every port you use as a separate internet connection.

Sparky9292
Mar 20, 2011, 04:22 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_0_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8A306 Safari/6531.22.7)

Uhm, can we get back on a useful topic?

How much data per month will trigger the warning?
Does AT&T know you are using tethering?
How many people's bills actually went up $45?
For the people who got the warning, can you post what your last month data usage was? And what tethering app were u using?

Ok now you can go back to discussing if some rich AT&T CEO gets ******** because you are using "illegal tethering".

Apple 26.2
Mar 20, 2011, 06:15 PM
I pay for unlimited, I should be permitted to use it as I wish. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

dukebound85
Mar 20, 2011, 06:17 PM
I pay for unlimited, I should be permitted to use it as I wish. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

You pay for unlimited after willingly agreeing to the terms of course


I'm on Verizon and have been using my unlimited plan as i see fit, on my cell phone for which i paid for and use as i see fit.

If you violate the terms of the agreement you signed, just don't be surprised if they confront you about it

Would you like it if Comcast or FiOS or whatever said you can pay for their internet and get 5 mbps but only if you browse the internet, no hulu, no netflix.


Or better yet, here is your cable modem, you can only use our router with it though, and we are going to charge you for every port you use as a separate internet connection.


The thing is.....neither of your "cases" are relevant. There are no such stipulations that I willingly agreed to in those contracts. Now contrast that with the fact for your cell contract, you did agree to abide by their terms

I will say, if those cases were valid, no I would not like it but if I did agree to it and violated what I agreed to, I would hardly be shocked to be called out by them on it

tekboi
Mar 20, 2011, 06:46 PM
I'm not paying to tether, and it's as simple as that.

My phone is jailbroken and is not 4.3... i'm glad i'm didn't upgrade it just so at&t can **** me over even more than they already are.

Jailbreaking is your only option when using an iphone.

jamesryanbell
Mar 20, 2011, 07:12 PM
AT&T provides the service, so they make the rules. Don't like it? Move carriers.

THEY WILL DECIDE HOW YOU USE YOUR DATA.

/discussion


Oh wait, that's AT&T's reply.

Mine was supposed to be: "That sucks".

Sorry about the confusion.

wpotere
Mar 20, 2011, 07:16 PM
I hope AT&T starts doing this and all the jailbreakers who go around the system lose their unlimited data, get their phones turned off, and/or get sued for breach of contract by AT&T. Thanks to the jailbreaks using huge amounts of data the unlimited data plan was taken off the table for everyone.



Don't lump all jailbreakers in with ther folks that are tethering. Some of us that are jailbroken do it to get additional features like LockInfo etc... There is more to jailbreaking than just tethering.

QuarterSwede
Mar 20, 2011, 07:21 PM
Don't lump all jailbreakers in with ther folks that are tethering. Some of us that are jailbroken do it to get additional features like LockInfo etc... There is more to jailbreaking than just tethering.
Exactly. Out of all jailbreakers I'd guess that under 1% are using craploads of data by tethering.

einmusiker
Mar 20, 2011, 07:31 PM
Really? How am I drinking the koolaid? I switched phones and have spoken to several reps as well as a friend that works for the company. Hate to say it, but it is what it is, get over it. You paid for unlimited data limited to the phone and phone only and signed/agreed to a contract. I am willing to bet that they have already consulted their lawyers to see if they have a leg to stand and done risk assessment on it to see if it is worth it. I guess it is considering they are finally taking action. You will be losing your tethering and they will be within their rights to take it. As for the me thinking the unlimited will be going away, they have already made it clear that no longer want it so I can't see it lasting a lot longer. Eventually you will want to upgrade that phone and they will simply say... "sorry, we no longer offer that plan, you will need to select a new plan". You will complain and they will simply wait for you to finish your little tantrum and then you will select a new plan. It has been happening for years and I don't see it changing now. :rolleyes:

You drink the kool aid because you willngly gave up your unlimited data plan when you didn't have to. Good little boy, sit ubu sit

physicsguy13
Mar 20, 2011, 08:05 PM
When I was on Verizon I had unlimited data on my windows mobile phone. The first time that I tried to tether I was sent to a Verion site saying I needed to add tethering to my plan to use it (it was 15 dollars back then). When I discovered custom ROMs they had the ability to stealth tether so that Verion couldn't tell you you were tethering. One time it stopped working an the providers could tell the phone was tethered so they were charged huge data bills because that data was not partvof their plan.

If the apps that people are using can be detected s tethering, ATT will probably use that info to change your plan. ATT is there to make as much money s possible so is anyone really surprised?

ATT has the right to change the terms of the contract once you are violating them. Whether it should be a violation is not the point, it is and this is how they have chosen to handle it.

wpotere
Mar 20, 2011, 08:17 PM
You drink the kool aid because you willngly gave up your unlimited data plan when you didn't have to. Good little boy, sit ubu sit

See, that shows how smart you actually are. I did have to give up my plan as that was an IPHONE plan and I no longer use my iPhone. Before you go all "then why are you here", my wife still has one. Guess what, it is unlimited data...

CubusX
Mar 20, 2011, 09:12 PM
More than one percent, and the majority of jailbreakers are using MyWi to tether. Whether it is a lot of data or a little data it does not mater, you are using a service for free that you should be paying to use.

That's the bottom line. Now that AT&T is moving to buy T-Mobile, cheap plans and unlimited data are gone.

Suck it while you can cause wiithin the next year or two say goodbye.

Then you will be on lower capped data plan or forced to pay for it.

CubusX
Mar 20, 2011, 09:22 PM
I hope this is true and that have a way of proving it.

That way they send you a letter informing you they switched your beloved unlimited plan to one of the capped plans due to breach of contract on your end. You try to complain and have your unlimited data plan reinstated and your denied.

Curb all this stealing, over usage, and breach of contracts.

Reimer
Mar 20, 2011, 09:33 PM
This entire argument truly is ridiculous. Do you think your home ISP would be perfectly fine with you setting up a public wifi network for your entire neighborhood to use, resulting in data usage that is exponential than intended? No.

I can't stand AT&T just as much as the next person in this thread and would gladly switch to Verizon if their coverage was better in my area, but the people butt-hurt that their service provider wants them to pay for a feature they're currently not paying for really makes no sense to me. Are we all supposed to pay for you instead? Stop being cheap.

A better comparison would be whether your ISP would allow the use of a router for your own home network. Ten years ago, home routers weren't that common. Your ISP would charge you for extra IPs if you had more than one computer.

In this case, a fee for tethering is essentially double-dipping, charging you twice for the same data you're already paying for.

The "Well, it's in your contract so tough ****" argument is ridiculous especially with the news of the T-Mobile acquisition. So not only is there fewer choice in the market, you're essentially saying they should be able to impose any BS fees they want as long as it's in the contract.

DiamondMac
Mar 20, 2011, 09:53 PM
More than one percent, and the majority of jailbreakers are using MyWi to tether. Whether it is a lot of data or a little data it does not mater, you are using a service for free that you should be paying to use.

That's the bottom line. Now that AT&T is moving to buy T-Mobile, cheap plans and unlimited data are gone.

Suck it while you can cause wiithin the next year or two say goodbye.

Then you will be on lower capped data plan or forced to pay for it.

Unlimited plans are already gone by just about everyone

Caps will continue to stay at their current levels or even DROPPED while overages/penalties are increased

More money = Less Data

bachelier
Mar 20, 2011, 10:51 PM
So if you're sticking at 4.1.0 and they aren't monitoring, then they should be monitoring 3.x even less, no?

All the more reason for me to stick with 3.1.3 on my 3G.

BL.

Agree. I just wish there was a hack to get flash on it. :(

bachelier
Mar 20, 2011, 11:19 PM
Actually the way they are most likely doing this and the way most carriers do it is using some deep packet inspection kit or maybe even a transparent proxy.

They can look for browsing traffic on port 80 then simply pick out any users where the user agent string is that of a computer OS so Windows|Mac|Linux.

2 options to get around it are: either change your browsers UA to that of the iPhone although this will often give you mobile sites or better still send everything down a VPN, that way its encrypted and they can;t see what your doing just how many bytes :-) High VPN usage shouldn't be odd either as the iPhone has a VPN client so you could feasibly be using that.

(Used to work in a carrier designing these systems so I should know!)

Which VPN do you recommend?

Zeke-
Mar 21, 2011, 01:21 AM
Here's my take on the whole AT&T tethering issue:


I bought an iPhone 4. With it comes free Apple updates and all the necessary hardware to do what I paid for.


I purchase data from a carrier. Doesn't matter who. This data can be used in any way, shape or form as long as I do not exceed the amount I paid for.


Apple releases an update that allows the iPhone to transmit wireless signals to other devices to use it's data.


Reiteration: I purchased the iPhone. The iPhone is capable of transmitting wireless signals through an update. No hardware installation is required.


Reiteration: I purchase the data I use.


With how AT&T handles tethering, this is how it is:

You have an iPhone, which you purchased. This includes it's features, such as tethering. You purchased data to use with this device.


You may not use the data you purchased for tethering. Also, you must buy more data to use for tethering even though tethering is not expensive (resource-wise), nor is it hardware that you have not purchased.


This does not make sense.

I should not have to pay for something which is no different than what I have already purchased.

Some argue that the tethering charge is because "you're paying to use your phone as a modem".

I already paid for my phone. I should not have to pay again to use a certain functionality. I already paid for the network data. I should not have to buy more for a functionality with no discernible difference.

Do I pay to be able to access the App Store? Yes. By purchasing my phone and by paying for internet at my home, this is enabled. So why must I pay further for a similar function for which I have already covered all costs?

Twenty dollars is not what a company should charge for features that were already paid for. This has become an argument of semantics, and AT&T will eventually either change the policy or risk losing customers to those who do not try to exploit their consumers to unrealistic degrees.

morean51
Mar 21, 2011, 01:40 AM
i was expecting this would happen and now this is happening

DavePurz
Mar 21, 2011, 02:31 AM
I've said it before and will say it again: AT&T is cheating its customers by charging separate for a tethering plan. You pay for data. Period. If you are forced to pay for tethering data in addition to your paid data plan, you're paying twice for the very same data. If AT&T wants more money, then charge more for data. But they shouldn't do it by charging twice for the very same thing. Who cares if someone tethers and someone else doesn't? Does it really make a difference if you watch Netfilx over your iPhone or iPad or computer? AT&T simply sees an opportunity to rob their customers and that's what they're doing. I really wish that an attorney would institute a class action law suit against AT&T for this practice. That day may come.

I couldn't agree with you more!

DavePurz
Mar 21, 2011, 02:56 AM
Here's my take on the whole AT&T tethering issue:


I bought an iPhone 4. With it comes free Apple updates and all the necessary hardware to do what I paid for.


I purchase data from a carrier. Doesn't matter who. This data can be used in any way, shape or form as long as I do not exceed the amount I paid for.


Apple releases an update that allows the iPhone to transmit wireless signals to other devices to use it's data.


Reiteration: I purchased the iPhone. The iPhone is capable of transmitting wireless signals through an update. No hardware installation is required.


Reiteration: I purchase the data I use.


With how AT&T handles tethering, this is how it is:

You have an iPhone, which you purchased. This includes it's features, such as tethering. You purchased data to use with this device.


You may not use the data you purchased for tethering. Also, you must buy more data to use for tethering even though tethering is not expensive (resource-wise), nor is it hardware that you have not purchased.


This does not make sense.

I should not have to pay for something which is no different than what I have already purchased.

Some argue that the tethering charge is because "you're paying to use your phone as a modem".

I already paid for my phone. I should not have to pay again to use a certain functionality. I already paid for the network data. I should not have to buy more for a functionality with no discernible difference.

Do I pay to be able to access the App Store? Yes. By purchasing my phone and by paying for internet at my home, this is enabled. So why must I pay further for a similar function for which I have already covered all costs?

Twenty dollars is not what a company should charge for features that were already paid for. This has become an argument of semantics, and AT&T will eventually either change the policy or risk losing customers to those who do not try to exploit their consumers to unrealistic degrees.

I completely agree with you, too!

The best analogy I can give you is the old days of cable TV when the company would do a TDR on your line to detect if you hooked up a VCR or TV in another room and attempt to charge you extra for it. The phone company used to test your phone every night to see it you connected an extra telephone. They would come to you home to CONFISCATE it. "It was a convenience that you weren't paying for."

What's next - your WIRED phone company charging you extra when they detect that you plugged it a cordless phone. How about your home ISP charging you extra for using WiFi to let your laptop work, because you "contract" says you can only connect PC that are hardwired.

This whole situation is BULLS**T and they know it and they will continue to do it until enough customer complain to the FCC and their legislators.

wpotere
Mar 21, 2011, 04:55 AM
I already paid for my phone. I should not have to pay again to use a certain functionality. .

Actually you didn't pay for your phone in total. You bought it at a subsidized price. Soooo, AT&T could say "look, we gave you a deal but with this deal come some restrictions that you have to abide by". They put those restrictions in an agreement that you accepted when you got your new shiny toy at a lower price and one of those was no tethering without a tethering plan.

I actually wish that the tethering plans would go away, but as a former network admin I can see why they would want to control and cap it. We have folks in our office that stream media all day long and it causes network saturation and packet loss due to the constant abuse. Some would say "just add more bandwidth" but sometimes it isn't that easy and cost is a huge factor. So I get it....

Xenius
Mar 21, 2011, 05:28 AM
Actually you didn't pay for your phone in total. You bought it at a subsidized price. Soooo, AT&T could say "look, we gave you a deal but with this deal come some restrictions that you have to abide by". They put those restrictions in an agreement that you accepted when you got your new shiny toy at a lower price and one of those was no tethering without a tethering plan.

Ok, but if you have an unsubsidized phone you get the same ****** deal that everyone else gets. How does that make sense?

If I could buy an unsubsidized phone and pay a lower per month charge and get tethering to use with my data (that I already damned paid for) then I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Blacklabel34
Mar 21, 2011, 05:47 AM
I don't think it is a bad thing for AT+T to prevent people from tethering to a laptop on an unlimited cell phone plan. Those people are just taking advantage of the system, and wasting bandwidth that the rest of us could use.


As far as I'm concerned it is the same as going to an all you can eat restaurant and sharing your food between two people, while only paying for one. It isn't a serious crime, but it is stealing, and you know that if you get caught you will have to stop. I'm not going to feel bad for these people that are using 5+GB per month.

Sorry but it is nothing like sharing your food with someone else. Maybe you meant to say....it's like paying for an all you can eat meal and taking food home for later. That would be more accurate.


Honestly for how much we pay....(well me at least).....$110+ a month I should be able to share my connection without having to be bent over for more.

Blacklabel34
Mar 21, 2011, 05:49 AM
Ok, but if you have an unsubsidized phone you get the same ****** deal that everyone else gets. How does that make sense?

If I could buy an unsubsidized phone and pay a lower per month charge and get tethering to use with my data (that I already damned paid for) then I'd do it in a heartbeat.
Agree, couldn't purchase one quick enough

NoStopN
Mar 21, 2011, 07:01 AM
I've said it before, & I'll say it again. I would pay AT&T $20 one time to enable tethering. But they can't take my unlimited data plan away or limit what the signal connects to (no wifi iPads currently).

Howdr
Mar 21, 2011, 08:18 AM
Here's my take on the whole AT&T tethering issue:


I bought an iPhone 4. With it comes free Apple updates and all the necessary hardware to do what I paid for.


I purchase data from a carrier. Doesn't matter who. This data can be used in any way, shape or form as long as I do not exceed the amount I paid for.


Apple releases an update that allows the iPhone to transmit wireless signals to other devices to use it's data.


Reiteration: I purchased the iPhone. The iPhone is capable of transmitting wireless signals through an update. No hardware installation is required.


Reiteration: I purchase the data I use.


With how AT&T handles tethering, this is how it is:

You have an iPhone, which you purchased. This includes it's features, such as tethering. You purchased data to use with this device.


You may not use the data you purchased for tethering. Also, you must buy more data to use for tethering even though tethering is not expensive (resource-wise), nor is it hardware that you have not purchased.


This does not make sense.

I should not have to pay for something which is no different than what I have already purchased.

Some argue that the tethering charge is because "you're paying to use your phone as a modem".

I already paid for my phone. I should not have to pay again to use a certain functionality. I already paid for the network data. I should not have to buy more for a functionality with no discernible difference.

Do I pay to be able to access the App Store? Yes. By purchasing my phone and by paying for internet at my home, this is enabled. So why must I pay further for a similar function for which I have already covered all costs?

Twenty dollars is not what a company should charge for features that were already paid for. This has become an argument of semantics, and AT&T will eventually either change the policy or risk losing customers to those who do not try to exploit their consumers to unrealistic degrees.

I agree with you 100%

For the last few days on tethering a lot of Self Righteous and brainwashed masses have been posting

"your stealing"

I'm so done with that!

I pay a large bill every month ( Due in a couple days in fact!)

This is why we are in trouble in this country, people keep accepting what ever they are told and roll with it.

Apple started as against the establishment but the whole thing is now reversed.

At&t should not be allowed to double charge

tethering is not Data iits a freaking gateway, its a cord from my phone to my computer where my laptop can now have data from the internet.

So what if my Computer and phone can now both access the internet?

If I use a reasonable amount ( At&t says its up to 5GB a month but I would say it's more like 5 to 10 GB a month) 5GB or less then no one and I mean no one has the right to send me a fee............. This is not ethical and we need to grow a Pair and man up and fight this crap.

If At&t want to Buy T-Mobile and be one of the largest Cell carriers in the western hemisphere then let them but the cost is to stop these tactics and provide us with reasonable service.

:rolleyes:

einmusiker
Mar 21, 2011, 09:08 AM
See, that shows how smart you actually are. I did have to give up my plan as that was an IPHONE plan and I no longer use my iPhone. Before you go all "then why are you here", my wife still has one. Guess what, it is unlimited data...

You easily could have kept the unlimited plan when you got the wmp all it takes is a little persuasive talking with a nice rep. We're not in grade school anymore and not everyone drives 55 mph on a perfect sunny day when no one is on the road. We all know that speed limits, just like data plans, are unnecessarily restrictive at times and those people with matured perspective can learn how to bend the rules without being too excessive.

rkahl
Mar 21, 2011, 09:45 AM
Quit Whining!
Consider yourselves lucky to get away with it this long! Yes you are paying for the data, but you're only paying for your device that the contracted plan is designed for. You are not entitled to unlimited data to a tethered device. Get over it and pay up!

CubusX
Mar 21, 2011, 11:08 AM
You pay for unlimited after willingly agreeing to the terms of course




If you violate the terms of the agreement you signed, just don't be surprised if they confront you about it





The thing is.....neither of your "cases" are relevant. There are no such stipulations that I willingly agreed to in those contracts. Now contrast that with the fact for your cell contract, you did agree to abide by their terms

I will say, if those cases were valid, no I would not like it but if I did agree to it and violated what I agreed to, I would hardly be shocked to be called out by them on it

THANK YOU!!! Someone who understands a contract...

appleguru1
Mar 21, 2011, 11:10 AM
Actually you didn't pay for your phone in total. You bought it at a subsidized price. Soooo, AT&T could say "look, we gave you a deal but with this deal come some restrictions that you have to abide by". They put those restrictions in an agreement that you accepted when you got your new shiny toy at a lower price and one of those was no tethering without a tethering plan.

I bought my iPhone unlocked, in Australia. I still am forced to add a smartphone data plan (regardless of whether I want it or not), and if I want to use tethering, I'm expected to pay extra for it. It's complete BS.

So. I'm not on a contract. AT&T did not subsidize my hardware. And yet I'm still subjected to all their BS and have to pay the same monthly rates as someone who is. They don't even offer PAYG plans compatible with the iPhone. And as the soon to be only GSM carrier in the US, I really have no choice. They have no competition.

Consultant
Mar 21, 2011, 11:55 AM
I have been tethering but I don't abuse it.

That must be why I didn't get this warning.

rkahl
Mar 21, 2011, 12:19 PM
I have been tethering but I don't abuse it.

That must be why I didn't get this warning.

Uh yeah... for now!

ghostlyorb
Mar 21, 2011, 12:37 PM
Well seeing I use MyWi... and I only used 4.1 GBs since December 3rd... I'm not going to get this message. And IF I do.. I'm gonna get real pissy and yell at them for asking me to switch for just using Netflix? How will they know? Seriously.

ghostlyorb
Mar 21, 2011, 12:38 PM
Uh yeah... for now!

So you're saying they will monitor EVERY iPhone?

rkahl
Mar 21, 2011, 12:41 PM
So you're saying they will monitor EVERY iPhone?

Their computers will be!

rkahl
Mar 21, 2011, 12:46 PM
And IF I do.. I'm gonna get real pissy and yell at them for asking me to switch for just using Netflix? How will they know? Seriously.

Since your "just" using Netflix you should be alright! Netflix doesn't use very much data at all! LOL

rkahl
Mar 21, 2011, 12:49 PM
How will they know? Seriously.

Might not be the smartest thing to advertise your jailbroken phone and unlimited data plan in your avatar description.

manman
Mar 21, 2011, 12:58 PM
Might not be the smartest thing to advertise your jailbroken phone and unlimited data plan in your avatar description.

True, because AT&T knows that the most efficient way to catch people doing this is to get them 1-by-1 via combing all the threads in various apple and cell phone related website forums. They also know which AT&T accounts are tied to which forum user name.

RUN FOR THE HILLS GHOSTLYORB!!!

einmusiker
Mar 21, 2011, 01:18 PM
does anyone know if they've sent out the notice to anyone still on 4.2.1?

synic
Mar 21, 2011, 01:18 PM
has massive use and download on installous caused anyone to receive these messages from at&t?

rkahl
Mar 21, 2011, 01:42 PM
True, because AT&T knows that the most efficient way to catch people doing this is to get them 1-by-1 via combing all the threads in various apple and cell phone related website forums. They also know which AT&T accounts are tied to which forum user name.

RUN FOR THE HILLS GHOSTLYORB!!!

LOL, as you upload your "how to beat the system" or "look how i did it" video on YouTube!

manman
Mar 21, 2011, 01:56 PM
LOL, as you upload your "how to beat the system" or "look how i did it" video on YouTube!

You got me genius. you got me... :rolleyes:

Zeke-
Mar 21, 2011, 02:02 PM
Actually you didn't pay for your phone in total. You bought it at a subsidized price.

What about those people who have paid for the phone in full, not a contract price? They own full rights to the device.

rkahl
Mar 21, 2011, 02:10 PM
What about those people who have paid for the phone in full, not a contract price? They own full rights to the device.

Really people! You own the phone, not AT&T's unauthorized data tethering plan!

If you can't afford the plan then get a different phone!

Zeke-
Mar 21, 2011, 02:23 PM
Really people! You own the phone, not AT&T's unauthorized data tethering plan!

If you can't afford the plan then get a different phone!

It's not a question of whether or not someone can afford the plan.

It's a question of rationality. Who wants to pay for a service that can use your already paid-for resources? No one.

AT&T loses nothing if I choose to use the tethering option of my phone with the data I already purchased. They only wish to gain through the additional charges placed upon tethering.

err404
Mar 21, 2011, 02:25 PM
Here's my take on the whole AT&T tethering issue:
...snip

I purchase data from a carrier. Doesn't matter who. This data can be used in any way, shape or form as long as I do not exceed the amount I paid for.

snip...
While I sympathize with you, your assumption is wrong. Go read the TOS for the data plan you purchased. It explicitly states that the data is not to be used for tethering.

That said, I agree with your position in principal. AT&T 'should' be more lenient with it's policy on volume limited plans.

Zeke-
Mar 21, 2011, 02:29 PM
While I sympathize with you, your assumption is wrong. Go read the TOS for the data plan you purchased. It explicitly states that the data is not to be used for tethering.

That said, I agree with your position in principal. AT&T 'should' be more lenient with it's policy on volume limited plans.

While I understand that the TOS is clear about the use of data and tethering, I do not believe it is rational nor will it hold in a court of law if the statement is challenged.

The reason behind the TOS stating that the data may not be used for tethering is pure profit-based. They really aren't providing a service. They're just enabling one the phone comes with.

pdjudd
Mar 21, 2011, 02:32 PM
What about those people who have paid for the phone in full, not a contract price? They own full rights to the device.
Owning the phone has nothing to do with the data plan - that is something controlled by the carriers and as such, they determine what you can use and how much it will cost you.

Owning the phone removes the subsidy aspect of things - it does not mean that you have any more control over the actual service portion of owning the phone.

Put it this way. Weather you own or lease a car, you still have to pay money to get the gas your car runs on. The two things are independent of each other.

The reason behind the TOS stating that the data may not be used for tethering is pure profit-based.

And that changing things how as far as legality goes? There is nothing illegal about charging different rates for different services. Look at texting. The amount of sheer profit that they get from this is stunning - yet it is very legal for the carriers to charge whatever the market will bear for it despite the fact that it costs nothing to provide it.

Who cares that it is pure profit base. The law doesn't give a darn.

Zeke-
Mar 21, 2011, 02:36 PM
Owning the phone has nothing to do with the data plan - that is something controlled by the carriers and as such, they determine what you can use and how much it will cost you.

Owning the phone removes the subsidy aspect of things - it does not mean that you have any more control over the actual service portion of owning the phone.

Put it this way. Weather you own or lease a car, you still have to pay money to get the gas your car runs on. The two things are independent of each other.

Yes, that's true.

But if I wish to use certain features of my car, I certainly do not have to pay for them. I paid for them when I purchased the car. I paid for the option of tethering when I bought my phone. Sure, the data isn't owned by me, but what I'm rationalizing here is that AT&T is wrong in how they're handling tethering.

If tethering was such an arduous thing to do, then I would understand why there would be a sizable charge, but it isn't.

err404
Mar 21, 2011, 02:37 PM
AT&T loses nothing if I choose to use the tethering option of my phone with the data I already purchased. They only wish to gain through the additional charges placed upon tethering.

I believe that this action stems from the AT&T network already being beyond capacity in many areas.

A policy like this will ultimately serve to improve the reliability and reputation of AT&T network.

Many of the complaints about AT&T service are a direct result of heavy data demand. Wireless spectrum is a finite resource that needs to be managed. The policy was created under the assumption that the more something costs, the less people will utilize it. A deterrent policy like this will serve to reduce the overall network load. Reduced load leads to a better experience for more users, at the expense of a relative few.

rkahl
Mar 21, 2011, 02:41 PM
i believe that this action stems from the at&t network already being beyond capacity in many areas.

A policy like this will ultimately serve to improve the reliability and reputation of at&t network.
Many of the complaints about at&t service are a direct result of heavy data demand. Wireless spectrum is a finite resource that needs to be managed. The policy was created under the assumption that the more something costs, the less people will utilize it. A deterrent policy like this will serve to reduce the overall network load. Reduced load leads to a better experience for more users, at the expense of a relative few.

+1

mlts22
Mar 21, 2011, 02:41 PM
I just wish there were a compromise to this.

I would love to see AT&T offering a true "business unlimited tethering" plan, even if it cost $100 a month.

The reason? There are times where I like getting the heck out of dodge, heading to places where the only Internet access would be a nearby GSM tower, so during that weekend, I'm using the 3G connection as a relatively slow, but steady pipe.

rkahl
Mar 21, 2011, 02:46 PM
I'm tethering to my more data intensive laptop right now. How is this affecting anybody else's bandwidth around me?... while standing in line at the apple store waiting to buy 15 iPad 2 to sell on craigslist.

err404
Mar 21, 2011, 02:48 PM
I just wish there were a compromise to this.

I would love to see AT&T offering a true "business unlimited tethering" plan, even if it cost $100 a month.

The reason? There are times where I like getting the heck out of dodge, heading to places where the only Internet access would be a nearby GSM tower, so during that weekend, I'm using the 3G connection as a relatively slow, but steady pipe.

There is no limit to what you can use. You just need to pay for it. That $100 will buy you almost 10GB of data.

pdjudd
Mar 21, 2011, 02:51 PM
Yes, that's true.

But if I wish to use certain features of my car, I certainly do not have to pay for them.

It doesn't work that way.


I paid for them when I purchased the car. I paid for the option of tethering when I bought my phone. Sure, the data isn't owned by me, but what I'm rationalizing here is that AT&T is wrong in how they're handling tethering.

Here is the thing - Phone data doesn't just work on a one-sided thing. Both parties have to provide the services needed. You paid for the capability for tethering. AT&T is willing to provide it to you, Verizon is willing to provide it to you. Not much of a choice I understand, but just because you have something in potentia, means jack if nobody can provide the service.

Guess what. When you control the network, you get to determine how the usage contacts work. Unfortunately in the US, things aren't weighed very well for the consumer - even if you have an unlocked phone.

And no. You didn't pay for the option of tethering. You bough a device that is capable of tethering. When you buy a cell phone, you buy a device that is capable of making calls. You don't buy a device that you can just dial right after you turn it on.

Again, you may be able to buy a car that goes 120 mph but that doesn't mean that you can do that right off the lot. YOu might never be able to do that legally at all ever...

If tethering was such an arduous thing to do, then I would understand why there would be a sizable charge, but it isn't.
Sadly. it doesn't matter one iota. Companies charge what the market is wiling to bear. That's the name of the game.

err404
Mar 21, 2011, 02:55 PM
I'm tethering to my more data intensive laptop right now. How is this affecting anybody else's bandwidth around me?... while standing in line at the apple store waiting to buy 15 iPad 2 to sell on craigslist.

Have you ever had 5 bars of signal, but a site still wouldn't load? This is the reason. By using data, you are consuming from a limited pool available to a given tower. Once this resource is used up, the tower can no longer perform reliably.
By discouraging users from using 'excessive' data, they reduce the chance of a cell tower becoming overloaded.

That said, This policy seems targeted at unlimited users. If you're on a 2GB plan, AT&T shouldn't care if your using it on the phone or for tethering. I wouldn't be surprised if once they eliminate the remaining unlimited plans, that they remove the tethering restriction and go simply to metered usage.

rkahl
Mar 21, 2011, 02:58 PM
Have you ever had 5 bars of signal, but a site still wouldn't load? This is the reason. By using data, you are consuming from a limited pool available to a given tower. Once this resource is used up, the tower can no longer perform reliably.
By discouraging users from using 'excessive' data, they reduce the chance of a cell tower becoming overloaded.

<sarcasm>

err404
Mar 21, 2011, 03:01 PM
<sarcasm>

can be hard to tell in some threads ;)

rkahl
Mar 21, 2011, 03:03 PM
can be hard to tell in some threads ;)

Poor attempt to compare how scalping and excessive unauthorized data usage really affect those directly around you.

Howdr
Mar 21, 2011, 03:20 PM
Have you ever had 5 bars of signal, but a site still wouldn't load? This is the reason. By using data, you are consuming from a limited pool available to a given tower. Once this resource is used up, the tower can no longer perform reliably.
By discouraging users from using 'excessive' data, they reduce the chance of a cell tower becoming overloaded.

That said, This policy seems targeted at unlimited users. If you're on a 2GB plan, AT&T shouldn't care if your using it on the phone or for tethering. I wouldn't be surprised if once they eliminate the remaining unlimited plans, that they remove the tethering restriction and go simply to metered usage.

I'm sorry but I truly disagree, in this argument 1 or 2 high use people out of lets say 25 are tethering in your Starbucks and thus taking all the bandwidth, But At&t would easily sell the other 23 people tethering and thus if all 25 are tethering at the same time ( this has happened to me away at a Hotel) then the bandwidth is so overwhelmed that its like having no signal.

Again blaming people for the shortfalls of At&t is not right, its not our fault the network is weak, it's At&t.

If I use 4 gb a month Data on unlimited or with 2gb+2gb makes no difference but so many of you argue and argue it is........ makes no sense at all.

4gb = 4gb of use no matter what the plan

the abusers are the ones using 10's of GB a month some are saying they are using 5gb a DAY!:eek: They would be singled out no matter the plan.:mad:

I honestly think this silly argument of Metered ( the 2=2gb plan with tethering) or the 2gb and tethering is ok is just jealously with the unlimited grandfathered people........ get over it people, Data=Data and these statements truly annoy me.

At&t is on a crusade like Apple is with JB and both don't care about anything but getting people.

rkahl
Mar 21, 2011, 03:26 PM
I'm gonna try that justification when I take my gf to the all you can eat Brazilian steakhouse tonight. I'm gonna purchase my meal and share it with my gf! When they try to make me pay for hers, I'm gonna present 20 pages of comments saying that I have every right to share my meal since I paid for it!

err404
Mar 21, 2011, 03:53 PM
I'm sorry but I truly disagree, in this argument 1 or 2 high use people out of lets say 25 are tethering in your Starbucks and thus taking all the bandwidth, But At&t would easily sell the other 23 people tethering and thus if all 25 are tethering at the same time ( this has happened to me away at a Hotel) then the bandwidth is so overwhelmed that its like having no signal.
This is why AT&T provides wifi at these types of high congestion areas. You admit to having experienced overloaded cell towers in areas where tethering is likely to occur (hotels). It stands to reason that charging extra for the service will reduce the number of users able to tether. Therefore reduce the load on the tower. Therefore reduce the chance of the tower becoming overloaded. You may not like it, but you're own argument supports my conclusion.

4gb = 4gb of use no matter what the plan
I agree with you and said as much in the second paragraph.

Howdr
Mar 21, 2011, 04:09 PM
This is why AT&T provides wifi at these types of high congestion areas. You admit to having experienced overloaded cell towers in areas where tethering is likely to occur (hotels). It stands to reason that charging extra for the service will reduce the number of users able to tether. Therefore reduce the load on the tower. Therefore reduce the chance of the tower becoming overloaded. You may not like it, but you're own argument supports my conclusion.


I agree with you and said as much in the second paragraph.

Yes but instead of AT&T monitoring use, which is, well easy to do,
they are going after all that tether without a plan.

I think this is a witch Hunt.

I'm against the tether fee because as Clark Howard would say "Its a Junk Fee". In reality Tethering costs At&t nothing.

the real focus should be abuse, At&t and all of us should guard against it..

If people as a community would of told these idiots who use 100GB a month that they are abusing the system and not go WOW great, like so many of the posts the last few years maybe this would of never happened and the number would have been way less then the proposed 300,000.

I have an unlimited plan there is no add on option for tethering, its unfair that I have to give it up to add tethering.

Its the Data use thats the problem not the plan.

Do we agree? sure on some points.

But one thing you should agree on, At&t's system has sucked in many places for quite some time and its not our fault for buying and using the data, a lot of this is At&t's fault.

err404
Mar 21, 2011, 04:38 PM
But one thing you should agree on, At&t's system has sucked in many places for quite some time and its not our fault for buying and using the data, a lot of this is At&t's fault.

Yes, the reliability of the network is the carriers responsibility. I take it a step further and don't have a problem with users of unlimited plans using excessive data. AT&T sold it to them, and they have the right to use it.

Unfortunately this has lead to issues in the network, so now AT&T needs to take action to address them going forward. Hopefully in a way that is unobtrusive to most users.

The first step was to cease the sale of new unlimited contracts. The current step is to enforce the terms of the existing contacts.

(Legally this was probably their only option. If AT&T agreed to unlimited contracts, they would have a hard time fighting the heavy users directly. They could not have changed existing terms since that could void contracts all together.)

--Beyond this point is speculation--

The coming 4G roll out will likely bring an end to unlimited contracts. Since, new capacity will become available at the same time, the network may actually end up being under utilized. In order to encourage slow growth of metered data usage onto the new network, I would expect tethering restrictions to be removed for 4G data TOS.

Howdr
Mar 21, 2011, 04:48 PM
Yes, the reliability of the network is the carriers responsibility. I take it a step further and don't have a problem with users of unlimited plans using excessive data. AT&T sold it to them, and they have the right to use it.

Unfortunately this has lead to issues in the network, so now AT&T needs to take action to address them going forward. Hopefully in a way that is unobtrusive to most users.

The first step was to cease the sale of new unlimited contracts. The current step is to enforce the terms of the existing contacts.

(Legally this was probably their only option. They would have a hard time fighting the heavy unlimited users because AT&T sold these unlimited contracts. They could not have changed existing terms since that would void contracts.)

--Beyond this point is speculation--

The coming 4G roll out will likely bring an end to unlimited contracts. Since, new capacity will become available at the same time, the network may actually end up being under utilized. In order to encourage slow growth of data usage onto the new network, I would expect tethering restrictions to be removed for 4G data.

Oh yes I understand what they are doing and feel they have to do,

But the tethering issue and the use issue should be different.

At&t also has it in the contract that Unlimited is abused after 5gb of monthly use.

I see it as a legal mess, they call it unlimited and then try to cap it at 5gb and then sell a 4gb plan ( 2+2 plan) and try to say when they print "Unlimited" it means 5gb........ Honestly it will not fly in the face of a judge.

I truly think when reason comes to play in court At&t will lose on the Unlimited Cap, you see At&t was able to call it a 2gb plan, if they wanted to limit the unlimited then they should of called it the 5gb plan instead they called it Unlimited because they knew people would leave if they didn't.

the tethering thing, I think I'm less sure on, but I think the courts may say what I have said, that Data=Data no matter from the phone or laptops.

Use is the issue not if you tether or not.

Thats where we differ I feel that tethering is not a problem for any of us, its the high use that some feel unlimited means.

I know all the internet providers cell and Home have cracked down on high use of bandwidth.

50 or more GB a month is too much on Cell plan that I agree.

No offense anybody but when you tether 50gb your asking for the phone police to come and get you.........:p

davidgrimm
Mar 21, 2011, 06:15 PM
Option 3; STOP trying to cheat the system, and START using your iDevice the way the manufacturer designed it and the way your carrier supports it. (Is it unfair? YES! Are all of us iPhone users getting hosed, even though there's now two carriers? YES)

And while you're at it, knock off the piracy with the napster/limewire/torrent crap.

(Yeah, I said it! SOMEBODY had to!)

So you said bend over and take it like a man? Bad advice. I'm waiting for my broadband company to want to charge me a separate data plan for each computer I have on my router.

This is why we need more competition in the wireless world, not less. I hope the Fed's block the ATT purchase of T-Mob.

alhedges
Mar 21, 2011, 06:28 PM
So you said bend over and take it like a man? Bad advice.
Why did you agree to bend over and take it like a man if you weren't going to bend over and take it like a man?

Are you a tease?

rjohnstone
Mar 21, 2011, 06:48 PM
At&t also has it in the contract that Unlimited is abused after 5gb of monthly use.

I see it as a legal mess, they call it unlimited and then try to cap it at 5gb and then sell a 4gb plan ( 2+2 plan) and try to say when they print "Unlimited" it means 5gb........ Honestly it will not fly in the face of a judge.

I truly think when reason comes to play in court At&t will lose on the Unlimited Cap,
There is no "cap" in the unlimited data plans. Period.
They don't offer an unlimited plan for tethering, so that part is moot.

It's nowhere to be found in the TOS for Smart phone/iPhone unlimited data plans.
This has been proven time and time again.

Even the current TOS makes no mention of a cap for the Unlimited plans.

http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/legal/index.jsp?q_termsKey=wirelessCustomerAgreement&q_termsName=AT&T+Wireless+Customer+Agreement



Only the DataConnect, DataPlus and DataPro "tethering" plans have a 5GB soft cap. And it is clearly written in the TOS.
And last time I checked, none of those have Unlimited plans available.
6.11 DataConnect Plans
6.11.1 What Are the General Terms that Apply to All DataConnect Plans?
A voice plan is not required with DataConnect plans.
We may, at our discretion, suspend your account if we believe your data usage is excessive, unusual or is better suited to another rate plan. If you are on a data plan that does not include a monthly MB/GB allowance and additional data usage rates, you agree that AT&T has the right to impose additional charges if you use more than 5 GB in a month; provided that, prior to the imposition of any additional charges, AT&T shall provide you with notice and you shall have the right to terminate your Data Service.



6.12.2 AT&T DataPlus/AT&T DataPro Plans With Tethering
AT&T DataPlus/AT&T DataPro plans with Tethering may be used to tether such SMARTPHONE and BlackBerry devices to a personal computer. If you are on a data plan that does not include a monthly megabyte allowance and additional data usage rates, the parties agree that AT&T has the right to impose additional charges if you use more than 5 GB in a month. Prior to the imposition of any additional charges, AT&T shall provide you with notice and you shall have the right to terminate your Service.

Howdr
Mar 21, 2011, 07:23 PM
There is no "cap" in the unlimited data plans. Period.
They don't offer an unlimited plan for tethering, so that part is moot.

It's nowhere to be found in the TOS for Smart phone/iPhone unlimited data plans.
This has been proven time and time again.

Even the current TOS makes no mention of a cap for the Unlimited plans.

http://www.wireless.att.com/cell-phone-service/legal/index.jsp?q_termsKey=wirelessCustomerAgreement&q_termsName=AT&T+Wireless+Customer+Agreement



Only the DataConnect, DataPlus and DataPro "tethering" plans have a 5GB soft cap. And it is clearly written in the TOS.
And last time I checked, none of those have Unlimited plans available.

I don't know where that link goes to but the At&t wireless legal link on the account page looks different.

This is from the one linked to my account:

6.11 DataConnect Plans
6.11.1 What Are the General Terms that Apply to All DataConnect Plans?
Print this section | Print this page

A voice plan is not required with DataConnect plans.

We may, at our discretion, suspend your account if we believe your data usage is excessive, unusual or is better suited to another rate plan. If you are on a data plan that does not include a monthly MB/GB allowance and additional data usage rates, you agree that AT&T has the right to impose additional charges if you use more than 5 GB in a month; provided that, prior to the imposition of any additional charges, AT&T shall provide you with notice and you shall have the right to terminate your Data Service.

There are no descriptions for the Iphone unlimited I could find because its not offered anymore.

But I remember the 5gb clause and here is what applied top all Data plans so
I guess you can argue it?

for those interested here are the legal site snap 2008 till present for At&t

WayBack Internet (http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20090227183802/http://www.wireless.att.com/learn/articles-resources/wireless-terms.jsp)

DiamondMac
Mar 21, 2011, 09:00 PM
Unfortunately this has lead to issues in the network, so now AT&T needs to take action to address them going forward.

Wait, how? How exactly have the unlimited people lead to issues?

Phone data in general lead to companies upgrading and now they say that unlimited users clog their networks....except showing any facts that show that.

They just blame unlimited users publicly and run with it often hoping others will repeat it too

err404
Mar 21, 2011, 10:40 PM
Wait, how? How exactly have the unlimited people lead to issues?

Phone data in general lead to companies upgrading and now they say that unlimited users clog their networks....except showing any facts that show that.

They just blame unlimited users publicly and run with it often hoping others will repeat it too

As I said before; most of us have ever experienced having full bars while the data service is slow or unresponsive. In most cases this is due to having to many users on the tower attempting to access data. This is not an uncommon occurrence in densely populated areas. The nature of wireless data is that the towers are able to have more people connected then can be simultaneously provided data. Adding towers can't fix the issue. It's physics problem. You only have a fixed amount of data that can by transmitting wirelessly before the signal turn to noise. This bandwidth is shared by everyone connecting to a tower.

For the record, I'm not blaming the users. Rather AT&T oversold what they can provide. They grossly underestimated the amount of data that could be consumed by modern smartphones. Once they realized this, the unlimited plans were removed; however the damage was already done. The technology used in 3G towers is all but tapped out. As average usage continues to rise, AT&T must obtain the needed headroom from somewhere. So they target high usage consumers and high usage features (tethering).

Howdr
Mar 21, 2011, 10:41 PM
Option 3; STOP trying to cheat the system, and START using your iDevice the way the manufacturer designed it and the way your carrier supports it. (Is it unfair? YES! Are all of us iPhone users getting hosed, even though there's now two carriers? YES)

And while you're at it, knock off the piracy with the napster/limewire/torrent crap.

(Yeah, I said it! SOMEBODY had to!)
Yeah some one had to say something ?

Uh we are not stealing

the Iphone and the Carrier both have tethering options so its designed for it :rolleyes:

Limewire is not a torrent

Torrents are not stealing, in fact Microsoft and many other software companies as well as Linux are distributed through torrents.


I have Downloaded many versions of Beta test software this way, like all the win 7 betas and now the win 8 betas.

Some people are streaming movies legit, like netflix and Hulu


Lets get the facts straight here. ;)

NoStopN
Mar 21, 2011, 10:42 PM
I say to hell with it all. Verizon will soon have their 4G LTE "MyFi" devices available. Get the cheap data plan from AT&T & get your data on 4G service. Or dump the AT&T service altogether & use a VOIP app for the iPhone with VZW 4G service. Of course, this will only work if VZW allows for unlimited data & you are in a 4G service area....like me. :D

OceanView
Mar 22, 2011, 03:05 AM
I say to hell with it all. Verizon will soon have their 4G LTE "MyFi" devices available. Get the cheap data plan from AT&T & get your data on 4G service. Or dump the AT&T service altogether & use a VOIP app for the iPhone with VZW 4G service. Of course, this will only work if VZW allows for unlimited data & you are in a 4G service area....like me. :D

I Think Verizon has a 5GB and 10GB cap for their LTE plans.
CLEAR has no cap but it is slower than LTE.

Kadman
Mar 22, 2011, 05:11 AM
Beyond the initial blast to some customers (enough to generate the buzz around the Net), have others been contacted about this? From what I've read it sounded like these notifications were to go out in waves, one source even stating something about a "by March 24th" target. That's two days away and I haven't heard more widespread reports in the past few days, nor have I received any such notification (besides the one I received a couple of years ago, before I started tethering).

Jeffrosproto
Mar 22, 2011, 05:56 AM
But I remember the 5gb clause and here is what applied top all Data plans so
I guess you can argue it?

for those interested here are the legal site snap 2008 till present for At&t

WayBack Internet (http://replay.waybackmachine.org/20090227183802/http://www.wireless.att.com/learn/articles-resources/wireless-terms.jsp)

That 5GB clause you quoted is for DataConnect plans. Those are only for laptop cards/modems, not cell phones. The Smartphone unlimited plan is truly unlimited - no cap at all.

Howdr
Mar 22, 2011, 08:44 AM
That 5GB clause you quoted is for DataConnect plans. Those are only for laptop cards/modems, not cell phones. The Smartphone unlimited plan is truly unlimited - no cap at all.

OK then fine, lets say Unlimited is unlimited and then the only difference is that you cannot sign up for it anymore.

then we are stuck with At&t saying "you can have all the data you want" But if you connect your computer to the phone we will take it away.

Reason abuse? I would say no since its only 2% meaning that 98% do not abuse.

So real reason? Money

they get an extra $15 a month right off the Bat and when people go above the 4gb At&t enjoys $10 per Gb.

I post this along time ago in this thread

a 10Gb month would cost you $45 plus $60 so $105 a month instead of $30

$90 x 300,000 abusers is 27 million in revenue. Just at 10GB a month.

Profit and greed pure and simple. At&t is squeezing us all they can and now they are buying T-Mobile, Great :rolleyes:

err404
Mar 22, 2011, 09:05 AM
Beyond the initial blast to some customers (enough to generate the buzz around the Net), have others been contacted about this? From what I've read it sounded like these notifications were to go out in waves, one source even stating something about a "by March 24th" target. That's two days away and I haven't heard more widespread reports in the past few days, nor have I received any such notification (besides the one I received a couple of years ago, before I started tethering).

Waiting is about all you can do right now. If you haven't received a notice, just carry on business-as-usual. They don't want to overwhelm their call centers so I would expect it to take months before all notices have been sent. The community does have some time to prepare. That said, it is coming.

There are a couple of way that this could be gotten around (at least temporarily):
You could have the IP stack lie to the upstream devices, hiding TTL and other indications of routing activity. This provides the best application compatibility, but is highly dependent upon the specific methods AT&T is using to harvest data.
Another, possibly more legit method, could be to create an app that functions as a Proxy as opposed to a Router. A Proxy is less compatible, but the requests to internet sites are truly coming from the app running on your phone, not simply routing from the tethered guest device. It becomes a bit of a semantic issue, but in addition to possibly not qualifying as "tethering", it would be more difficult to detect.

As for me, my usage is well under the 4GB base and I've tired of the cat and mouse game. I've decided that it's worth the extra $15 for everything to "just work". It's been fun.

err404
Mar 22, 2011, 09:17 AM
So real reason? Money
The Money argument would only hold if AT&T's network was currently under utilized. I think it is very clear from any article about AT&T's reliability in the last year, that they are beyond saturated in many areas. Also, the Money argument largely depends upon current unlimited users staying at their current consumption level. Contrarily I feel that AT&T hopes that these users will cut back on usage or leave AT&T network all together.

rkahl
Mar 22, 2011, 10:11 AM
The coupon that AT&T gave out for unlimited iphone data plan has far expired. Quit trying to shop with that coupon, it doesn't work anymore. The unlimited data plan is about to be apart of the past whether you have a contract or not.

Howdr
Mar 22, 2011, 10:29 AM
The Money argument would only hold if AT&T's network was currently under utilized. I think it is very clear from any article about AT&T's reliability in the last year, that they are beyond saturated in many areas. Also, the Money argument largely depends upon current unlimited users staying at their current consumption level. Contrarily I feel that AT&T hopes that these users will cut back on usage or leave AT&T network all together.
Huh? What does utilization have to do with profits? As far as leave? And go where? Only one choice now Verizon.
But this is not the focus since when we say we want to leave they give in and try to keep us. I think they want it all, our money and our obedience to their will.

At&t is now growing so large that no Carrier will be as large in the USA.

last time they were this large the US government broke them up.

I feel the usage is At&t's fault, so many are blaming the 2% of abusers, At&t gave us Unlimited Data, we didn't force them to do this.
At&t wont allow us to add tether to the Unlimited....... At&t is causing the problem by double charging and double talk.

realize they have over 70 Million users and about to have over 100 million, and I'm supposed to feel sorry for them?

your posts seem to always side with "Poor At&t"

At&t controls the market not users,

Its not supply and demand anymore, Cell phones are now longer a luxury but a needed part of modern life. so Many have ditched land lines and now use Cell phones as means of communication.

Like Power and water to a home, this has now become a necessity.

70 years ago Power, running water and home phone was not needed to navigate life in the US, now its basic with internet starting to become the next basic.
Its so needed that I got in the mail a mass mailing for free cell phones for the poor.

Times change, soon school kids will study from tablets..... what was a necessity yesterday changes and evolves.

The point is, At&t provides something that is a basic need in the US now, that said yes we can and will dictate through the government what they can and cannot do to us.

Writing hard to understand and contradictory contracts is one area that will be looked at in the near future.

If At&t wants over 100 million customers then its their responsibility to provide reasonable service and cost just as would be provided by the smaller companies they bought.

To do otherwise there will be Heck to pay from all of us.

:rolleyes:

err404
Mar 22, 2011, 10:57 AM
your posts seem to always side with "Poor At&t"
I prefer to think of it as providing a more balanced view of the situation.

It’s the end users right to utilize their plan as they see fit. If they pay for an unlimited plan, they have no moral obligation to compromise their usage for the sake of other users. They are completely justified in consuming 100's of GB a month.

On the other hand, the carrier has an obligation to enforce the terms of user contracts when violations impact other users.

I understand the emotional need to rant about the loss of something that benefits you, but I'm trying to be objective. You're argument seems to hinge on a contract forbidding tethering being illegal; therefore AT&T is evil. Other then some awkward car analogies, I see noting to support this claim.

Howdr
Mar 22, 2011, 11:09 AM
I prefer to think of it as providing a more balanced view of the situation.

It’s the end users right to utilize their plan as they see fit. If they pay for an unlimited plan, they have no moral obligation to compromise their usage for the sake of other users. They are completely justified in consuming 100's of GB a month.

On the other hand, the carrier has an obligation to enforce the terms of user contracts when violations impact other users. Thats the rub, the contracts may not be ethical since they provide tethering with added GB to anyone who cannot get the unlimited anymore. I want the option to tether. If they just charged a simple gateway fee people would pay it,instead they refuse and thats the issue.


I understand the emotional need to rant about the loss of something that benefits you, but I'm trying to be objective. You're argument seems to hinge on a contract forbidding tethering being illegal; therefore AT&T is evil. Other then some awkward car analogies, I see noting to support this claim.

It may be illegal
Its the same data, and we are not allowed to tether unless we give up unlimited.

I explained how this claim can be supported, its called "The public Good"
When a large corporation supplies a needed product for basic functioning in our society we tend to hold it to a higher standard.

At&t is not evil, but they are not perfect.

You also have trouble supporting At&t's side except......it's in the contract.
I and others have pointed out that whats in a contract may or may not be binding once a judge makes a decision.

Lets look at At&t's side, Harm, to sue you must have Harm in some way.

If I tether how have I harmed At&t?
I used 3gb of Data in a month with phone and tether.

Its under the 4gb of the Data and tethering plan.

What harm have I done to At&t? You said its not about money, but in court you will not be able to convince a Jury that Data does not equal Data, so what is left is the $15 a month they lost with the 2+2 plan.

So it does come down to money.

OceanView
Mar 22, 2011, 11:27 AM
Thats the rub, the contracts may not be ethical since they provide tethering with added GB to anyone who cannot get the unlimited anymore. I want the option to tether. If they just charged a simple gateway fee people would pay it,instead they refuse and thats the issue.



It may be illegal
Its the same data, and we are not allowed to tether unless we give up unlimited.

I explained how this claim can be supported, its called "The public Good"
When a large corporation supplies a needed product for basic functioning in our society we tend to hold it to a higher standard.

At&t is not evil, but they are not perfect.

You also have trouble supporting At&t's side except......it's in the contract.
I and others have pointed out that whats in a contract may or may not be binding once a judge makes a decision.

Lets look at At&t's side, Harm, to sue you must have Harm in some way.

If I tether how have I harmed At&t?
I used 3gb of Data in a month with phone and tether.

Its under the 4gb of the Data and tethering plan.

What harm have I done to At&t? You said its not about money, but in court you will not be able to convince a Jury that Data does not equal Data, so what is left is the $15 a month they lost with the 2+2 plan.

So it does come down to money.

AT&T needs to make some compromises to Unlimited users.
At least give them 5GB limit AND the ability to tether at the same price.
This would solve so much of the issues.

Howdr
Mar 22, 2011, 11:42 AM
AT&T needs to make some compromises to Unlimited users.
At least give them 5GB limit AND the ability to tether at the same price.
This would solve so much of the issues.

yes this may be reasonable since to tell someone you have to give up unlimited at $30 a month to get 4gb with Tether at $45 a month is more like a insult I think. Plus if the amount of use of the network was an issue and not money, then At&t would offer a 4gb plan with a huge penalty like $2mb they charge to those who are not on a plan. They don't and $10 a GB is not a huge enough to make people too mad.
I think its a complicated argument not Black and white.

The emotional part mentioned before in other posts was correct but there are valid points I feel on both sides.

rkahl
Mar 22, 2011, 12:10 PM
OMG people... it's not the end of the world!

If you have the unlimited data plan for the device that your contract states then you have the following options.

1. Continue using the unlimited plan as it was signed by you on the day of contract. (AT&T didn't make any promises about tethering of the future).

2. Continue using the unlimited plan while making an unauthorized tethering connection. (It doesn't matter if you are using 1gb or 10gb you are still abusing the system which does affect those doing it the right way).

3. Switch to the appropriate data plan for said devices.

4. Shop for another carrier.

1990 is over, long over. The unlimited data plan was designed for yesterday's devices. AT&T is just waiting for you to switch plans just to get you off the unlimited plan. They are a business and not your friend. You need to get over this "grandfathered in" plan because when they announce a 4g iPhone voice/data plan, the grandfathering will be over!

KidStallyn
Mar 22, 2011, 12:37 PM
I say SEND ME THAT TXT ATT!!! I do not tether, but I am at 5.8GB today. going to be higher as I sling TV and listen to SiriusXM on my iPhone today. Both APPROVED apps!!!

alent1234
Mar 22, 2011, 12:40 PM
Thats the rub, the contracts may not be ethical since they provide tethering with added GB to anyone who cannot get the unlimited anymore. I want the option to tether. If they just charged a simple gateway fee people would pay it,instead they refuse and thats the issue.



It may be illegal
Its the same data, and we are not allowed to tether unless we give up unlimited.

I explained how this claim can be supported, its called "The public Good"
When a large corporation supplies a needed product for basic functioning in our society we tend to hold it to a higher standard.

At&t is not evil, but they are not perfect.

You also have trouble supporting At&t's side except......it's in the contract.
I and others have pointed out that whats in a contract may or may not be binding once a judge makes a decision.

Lets look at At&t's side, Harm, to sue you must have Harm in some way.

If I tether how have I harmed At&t?
I used 3gb of Data in a month with phone and tether.

Its under the 4gb of the Data and tethering plan.

What harm have I done to At&t? You said its not about money, but in court you will not be able to convince a Jury that Data does not equal Data, so what is left is the $15 a month they lost with the 2+2 plan.

So it does come down to money.

everyone has high margin services, tethering is it for the carriers. the harm is you agreed to a set of conditions in signing a contract to get a subsidized phone and you broke the contract

rkahl
Mar 22, 2011, 12:41 PM
I say SEND ME THAT TXT ATT!!! I do not tether, but I am at 5.8GB today. going to be higher as I sling TV and listen to SiriusXM on my iPhone today. Both APPROVED apps!!!

Yep, nothing wrong with that.

rkahl
Mar 22, 2011, 01:20 PM
Some might need a magnifying glass to read the fine print, but this was taken directly from AT&T's website.

"Furthermore, plans (unless specifically designated for tethering usage) cannot be used for any applications that tether the device (through use of, including without limitation, connection kits, other phone/smartphone to computer accessories, BLUETOOTH® or any other wireless technology) to Personal Computers (including without limitation, laptops), or other equipment for any purpose. Accordingly, AT&T reserves the right to (i) deny, disconnect, modify and/or terminate Service, without notice, to anyone it believes is using the Service in any manner prohibited or whose usage adversely impacts its wireless network or service levels or hinders access to its wireless network, including without limitation, after a significant period of inactivity or after sessions of excessive usage and (ii) otherwise protect its wireless network from harm, compromised capacity or degradation in performance, which may impact legitimate data flows. You may not send solicitations to AT&T's wireless subscribers without their consent. You may not use the Services other than as intended by AT&T and applicable law. Plans are for individual, non-commercial use only and are not for resale. AT&T may, but is not required to, monitor your compliance, or the compliance of other subscribers, with AT&T's terms, conditions, or policies."

err404
Mar 22, 2011, 01:24 PM
I say SEND ME THAT TXT ATT!!! I do not tether, but I am at 5.8GB today. going to be higher as I sling TV and listen to SiriusXM on my iPhone today. Both APPROVED apps!!!

No worries; live it up! Sling is a slick app.
They sold you unlimited and you're using it as intended.