PDA

View Full Version : AT&T Cracking Down on Unauthorized Tethering




Pages : 1 2 [3] 4

rkahl
Mar 22, 2011, 01:28 PM
no worries; live it up! Sling is a slick app.
They sold you unlimited and you're using it as intended.

+1



Howdr
Mar 22, 2011, 01:29 PM
everyone has high margin services, tethering is it for the carriers. the harm is you agreed to a set of conditions in signing a contract to get a subsidized phone and you broke the contractI disagree, "I broke the contract". At&t caused it by not offering tethering to me. LOL

They offer it to everyone else now except the GF in people. Its our way of fighting back, plus I do not go overboard on GB per month, people are posting using 10's of GB for streaming products without tether, I'm using way less.

At&t has no real logic in this only that's its a case of money. Money that At&t loses on Unlimited plans.

That is the point that so many of you are missing, its money.

At&t doesn't want to let those of us on the Unlimited plan they use to keep us have any other "freebie"

Yet when you look at the 2+2 plan

2gb Data is $25
each additional GB is $10
If you choose tethering its $20 with an additional 2gb

My math says this is the same price per GB they charge if you go over the 2gb plan

so hence Tethering is FREE! Easy to understand and calculate.

Tethering costs At&t nothing ( no matter how you argue this its nothing Data= Data your arguing that H2O frozen is not the same molecule as H2O liquid, mater is mater and Data is data.)

Look I can build a case if given time.

I feel At&t enjoys a witch hunt and likes to blame its shortcomings on others all the time. Its the 2% of high users fault for the poor system in some areas not At&t for having better equipment or more towers.

As I said At&t has no harm in this, so I've done nothing wrong as anybody else ( until a court says otherwise)

So I'm tired of this debate, Its good

Some think At&t is in the right and
Others think they are not

I'm with the people who think we should not just bend over and take it.
Tether
jail Break

Its our phones and we pay our bills, we should be able to do with it as we want!

Apple and At&t want to control it all..............

rkahl
Mar 22, 2011, 01:39 PM
They offer it to everyone else now except the GF in people.

Absolutely FALSE.

Call AT&T right now and tell them that you are grandfathered in the unlimited data plan but you want tethering now. You will have no problem switching at all!

err404
Mar 22, 2011, 01:48 PM
Tethering costs At&t nothing ( no matter how you argue this its nothing Data= Data your arguing that H2O frozen is not the same molecule as H2O liquid, mater is mater and Data is data.)
Tethering costs AT&T in the form of higher network strain. The assumption is that users tethering on a device will tend towards higher average usage. Since Data = Data, if AT&T has a goal of reducing data usage, cracking down on tethering can be considered "low hanging fruit". They don't need to alter existing terms to allow crack down on it.

Whether they should allow tethering on the metered plans is really an unrelated question. It's also much more difficult to implement since it requires a TOS modification. Carriers are likely hesitant to modify existing TOS since it can lead to invalidating contracts. Like I said before, I wouldn't be surprised to see this restriction removed from the 4G data TOS.

Howdr
Mar 22, 2011, 01:58 PM
The assumption is that users tethering on a device will tend towards higher average usage. If AT&T has a goal of reducing data usage, cracking down on tethering can be considered "low hanging fruit". They don't need to alter existing terms to allow crack down on it.

Whether they should allow tethering on the metered plans is really an unrelated question. It's also much more difficult to implement since it requires a TOS modification. Carriers are likely hesitant to modify existing TOS since it can lead to invalidating contracts. Like I said before, I wouldn't be surprised to see this restriction removed from the 4G data TOS.

No not really, tethering is allowed on all current plans when you sign for service.

Unlimited is Grandfathered so its a limited number of people, but will grow this year due to T Mobile has Unlimited plans ( watch out T Mobile customers).

Many tether with T Mobile now so this will get interesting soon.

The assumption is that users tethering on a device will tend towards higher average usage So what? Its an assumption and simple to police, you police high users, ones using an unreasonable amount of data.

Look you can't have it both ways
Unlimited
People using 50gb a month streaming without Tethering
then policing tethering with a reason of High usage.......

Its inconsistent and points to what I said, they charge for something and want the money.

Logically they can't go after Unlimited for using 50Gb streaming without tether but they can go after high usage with tethering and get the higher fees............but the reason will be high use? Tethering will always use more GB? More Data? It does not make sense and I cannot accept it as answer.

I have read all the posts on Packet sniffing what ever bottom line is usage and money

The usage argument has many holes in it.
The money issue can be easily proven.

And thats my stance.

rkahl
Mar 22, 2011, 02:06 PM
Look you can't have it both ways

EXACTLY!!! You are starting to figure it out... "you can't have it both ways". You either keep your grandfathered in plan -OR- You switch to a plan that allows authorized tethering.

rkahl
Mar 22, 2011, 02:33 PM
"UPDATE
I’ve received a reply from AT&T, and they are basically just trying to keep everything fair for their customers (those who are actually paying for tethering):

We’ve just begun sending letters, emails, and text messages to a small number of smartphone customers who use their devices for tethering but aren’t on our required tethering plan.* Our goal here is fairness for all of our customers.* (This impacts a only small percentage of our smartphone customer base.)
*
The letter outlines three choices:
1) Stop tethering and keep their current plan (including grandfathered unlimited plan)
2) Proactively call AT&T or visit our stores and move to the required tethering plan
3) Do nothing and we’ll go ahead and add the tethering plan on their behalf — after the dated noted in their customer notification.

I then asked if AT&T had a way for checking if someone is using tethering, and here’s the reply:

The ability to manage our network and enforce our policies enhances the quality and consistency of the customer experience; this is nothing new.* In this case, our network is able to determine if a smartphone customer is using the device as a broadband connection for other devices."

alent1234
Mar 22, 2011, 02:45 PM
you're missing the point, tethering is a high margin service aimed mostly at business users. anything aimed at business users always costs more.

i get a telecom newsletter in my email and a year or so ago it said carriers were still trying to figure out what the razors and the blades were in the new business model. tethering is like the razor blades.

everything else is just break even, tethering and the ipad/business 3G services are where the profits come from which is why they started to crack down on it

it's like going large on fast food. you get a few pennies worth of potatoes, salt and sugar water for an extra $.50 or whatever the price is. or why a tall starbucks is $1.50 and a venti is $2.40

I disagree, "I broke the contract". At&t caused it by not offering tethering to me. LOL

They offer it to everyone else now except the GF in people. Its our way of fighting back, plus I do not go overboard on GB per month, people are posting using 10's of GB for streaming products without tether, I'm using way less.

At&t has no real logic in this only that's its a case of money. Money that At&t loses on Unlimited plans.

That is the point that so many of you are missing, its money.

At&t doesn't want to let those of us on the Unlimited plan they use to keep us have any other "freebie"

Yet when you look at the 2+2 plan

2gb Data is $25
each additional GB is $10
If you choose tethering its $20 with an additional 2gb

My math says this is the same price per GB they charge if you go over the 2gb plan

so hence Tethering is FREE! Easy to understand and calculate.

Tethering costs At&t nothing ( no matter how you argue this its nothing Data= Data your arguing that H2O frozen is not the same molecule as H2O liquid, mater is mater and Data is data.)

Look I can build a case if given time.

I feel At&t enjoys a witch hunt and likes to blame its shortcomings on others all the time. Its the 2% of high users fault for the poor system in some areas not At&t for having better equipment or more towers.

As I said At&t has no harm in this, so I've done nothing wrong as anybody else ( until a court says otherwise)

So I'm tired of this debate, Its good

Some think At&t is in the right and
Others think they are not

I'm with the people who think we should not just bend over and take it.
Tether
jail Break

Its our phones and we pay our bills, we should be able to do with it as we want!

Apple and At&t want to control it all..............

err404
Mar 22, 2011, 03:33 PM
So what? Its an assumption and simple to police, you police high users, ones using an unreasonable amount of data.
They can't directly police high volume users so long as they are abiding by their terms of service.
Tethering, on the other hand, is outside of your TOS; therefore this is something that can be policed.

Howdr
Mar 22, 2011, 03:36 PM
you're missing the point, tethering is a high margin service aimed mostly at business users. anything aimed at business users always costs more.

...........
And yet I feel your missing the point, tethering costs nothing, its a function.

If I have unlimited Data it does not matter if I tether or not Data=Data

IF I do not not use high data then your argument is moot, nothing is protected.

Thats my point and even At&t knows this, they do not want people on true unlimited plans. Thats the point.

Getting tired of repeating everything in 10 different ways, this is the point and the truth.

Fairness as the letter above says has nothing to do with it since it will never be fair I have unlimited data and others cannot have it. At&t is full of crap!

This is crap:
"UPDATE
Iíve received a reply from AT&T, and they are basically just trying to keep everything fair for their customers (those who are actually paying for tethering):

Weíve just begun sending letters, emails, and text messages to a small number of smartphone customers who use their devices for tethering but arenít on our required tethering plan.* Our goal here is fairness for all of our customers.* (This impacts a only small percentage of our smartphone customer base.)
*
The letter outlines three choices:
1) Stop tethering and keep their current plan (including grandfathered unlimited plan)
2) Proactively call AT&T or visit our stores and move to the required tethering plan
3) Do nothing and weíll go ahead and add the tethering plan on their behalf ó after the dated noted in their customer notification.

I then asked if AT&T had a way for checking if someone is using tethering, and hereís the reply:

The ability to manage our network and enforce our policies enhances the quality and consistency of the customer experience; this is nothing new.* In this case, our network is able to determine if a smartphone customer is using the device as a broadband connection for other devices."

This is crap, to be fair they should allow us to pay a fee so we can tether.
They wont because they do not want us on unlimited.

I expected this kind of skillful worded letter, its crap and should be understood as such.

Is it Fair that I have unlimited and my son who signs up for an Iphone tomorrow can't have it? No

Fair has nothing to do with deals.

At&t gave me a deal once and now wants to short change me and not give me tethering without weaseling out of the deal..............

I have Tetherme going, which so far no one has been detected that I know of yet.

ANd no I do not use more then 3 to 5gb a month I'm not a high user.:rolleyes:

err404
Mar 22, 2011, 03:52 PM
Thats my point and even At&t knows this, they do not want people on true unlimited plans. Thats the point.
Agreed. But there is little that they can about it, outside of enforcing the TOS.

This is crap, to be fair they should allow us to pay a fee so we can tether.
They wont because they do not want us on unlimited.
This in incongruous with your initial point of Data=Data.

rkahl
Mar 22, 2011, 04:21 PM
And yet I feel your missing the point, tethering costs nothing, its a function.

If I have unlimited Data it does not matter if I tether or not Data=Data

IF I do not not use high data then your argument is moot, nothing is protected.

Thats my point and even At&t knows this, they do not want people on true unlimited plans. Thats the point.

Getting tired of repeating everything in 10 different ways, this is the point and the truth.

Fairness as the letter above says has nothing to do with it since it will never be fair I have unlimited data and others cannot have it. At&t is full of crap!

This is crap:


This is crap, to be fair they should allow us to pay a fee so we can tether.
They wont because they do not want us on unlimited.

I expected this kind of skillful worded letter, its crap and should be understood as such.

Is it Fair that I have unlimited and my son who signs up for an Iphone tomorrow can't have it? No

Fair has nothing to do with deals.

At&t gave me a deal once and now wants to short change me and not give me tethering without weaseling out of the deal..............

I have Tetherme going, which so far no one has been detected that I know of yet.

ANd no I do not use more then 3 to 5gb a month I'm not a high user.:rolleyes:

Great way to show your children how to "Beat the System". I'm sure they are very proud!

Howdr
Mar 22, 2011, 04:27 PM
Great way to show ***** how to "Beat the System".

I feel I'm doing nothing wrong, I'm using Data I pay for Sir.

No different then having WFI at home, this too was not allowed at one time, Just like you could only hook up one TV to cable or satellite per account, oh how we forget!

iboost79
Mar 22, 2011, 04:36 PM
Just wondering how they are monitoring this. How do they know if you are tethering? I average 6-8GB a month in data usage. I never use Wi-Fi because TWC sucks in NYC and have been streaming videos to my iPhone over 3G. I tether once in awhile to my Dell Streak, but not enough to stir up a red flag. Am I going to get this message?

rkahl
Mar 22, 2011, 04:49 PM
I feel I'm doing nothing wrong, I'm using Data I pay for Sir.

No different then having WFI at home, this too was not allowed at one time, Just like you could only hook up one TV to cable or satellite per account, oh how we forget!

If you "Feel" like your not doing anything wrong, then you shouldn't feel the need to explain or justify. Especially 21 pages of comments.

LeeTom
Mar 22, 2011, 04:59 PM
Tell this right now any one who understand tcp and deep packet sniffing...I would like to point out deep packet sniffing is legal.


Hey now - I got into deep packet sniffing but ended up checking myself into rehab. Let me tell you, it's definitely not legal!

rkahl
Mar 22, 2011, 05:43 PM
Just wondering how they are monitoring this. How do they know if you are tethering? I average 6-8GB a month in data usage. I never use Wi-Fi because TWC sucks in NYC and have been streaming videos to my iPhone over 3G. I tether once in awhile to my Dell Streak, but not enough to stir up a red flag. Am I going to get this message?

Anybody who tethers without a tethering plan is at risk.

magicbrain
Mar 22, 2011, 05:45 PM
so much useless jabber here ...

any who. got 3GS w/ 3.2.1 on it (before you laugh ...) still tethering off mywi & bluetooth carrier hack for the past 4 days since ATT started "cracking down" ... NO problems! no f&ck u txt from yAckTT

anybody with iPhone 4 iOS 4.2 got cease txt from those bastards ?

macse30
Mar 22, 2011, 05:50 PM
"UPDATE
I’ve received a reply from AT&T, and they are basically just trying to keep everything fair for their customers (those who are actually paying for tethering):


Fair!? I live in a rural area and pay for 3G service but get Edge. We have one AT&T tower for the town. When that goes down (every couple of months) everybody with AT&T loses all service. How is AT&T being "fair" to this customer. The word is greedy.

p.s. When 100 visitors come to town with iPhones for a local event, the whole thing shuts down. No data and most calls go to vm.

manman
Mar 22, 2011, 05:59 PM
rkahl- who the ****** are you dude- AT&T's shining white knight protector of all that is good and right?

You act like you have the inside line on everything going on at AT&T just cuz you got a damn email. Seriously- you have no idea who is at risk, how hard they are cracking down, what data they have- any of that. If they have it, good for them..if not...good for them. Why are you so worried about anyone out there trying to "beat the system" as you love to say?

Something tells me you would have been saying the same garbage back when the music and movie companies 'cracked down' on downloads of copyrighted material. Yeah- that was pretty successful wasn't it. Everyone who has ever downloaded a movie or song is now in jail or paying fines through the nose huh...nobody ever does that anymore, lol.

rkahl
Mar 22, 2011, 06:35 PM
"UPDATE
I’ve received a reply from AT&T, and they are basically just trying to keep everything fair for their customers (those who are actually paying for tethering):

We’ve just begun sending letters, emails, and text messages to a small number of smartphone customers who use their devices for tethering but aren’t on our required tethering plan.* Our goal here is fairness for all of our customers.* (This impacts a only small percentage of our smartphone customer base.)
*
The letter outlines three choices:
1) Stop tethering and keep their current plan (including grandfathered unlimited plan)
2) Proactively call AT&T or visit our stores and move to the required tethering plan
3) Do nothing and we’ll go ahead and add the tethering plan on their behalf — after the dated noted in their customer notification.

I then asked if AT&T had a way for checking if someone is using tethering, and here’s the reply:

The ability to manage our network and enforce our policies enhances the quality and consistency of the customer experience; this is nothing new.* In this case, our network is able to determine if a smartphone customer is using the device as a broadband connection for other devices."

If you are talking about this email, I copied this email from another forum mentioning the same topic. Hence my edit at the bottom...

Xials
Mar 22, 2011, 08:44 PM
It's fun to watch thieves complain. AT&T did not hide their requirements. YOU KNOW you are bypassing what you agreed to, and are taking something you are intentionally not paying for. If you don't like the price of a service, say having your heater fixed, if you use their service, and then just don't pay for it, you get sued, you get reported, you get in trouble, they garnish your taxes. Why old you expect anything different because you didn't ask first?

Furthermore, detecting what kind of data is going through their networks. They can see for instance, if the type of device that originated the request, say, a Laptop running Google Chrome on Windows 7, or an iPhone 3,1, running mobile Safari. They also can simply look at the content that is delivered. If requests are sent to sites that have a mobile version, and they are always sending the desktop version of their page, this is a pretty good indication.

If you even remotely understand how the web collects data, they do not have to do anything special to any device to 'track' dishonest behavior, the data they need to look at is already there. It's been there for years, even before they offered any tethering whatsoever, this is how websites know what kind of content to deliver to your device.

Why don't thieves win? because they are stupid. If they were smart, they would not behave like thieves.

NoStopN
Mar 22, 2011, 09:42 PM
I Think Verizon has a 5GB and 10GB cap for their LTE plans.
CLEAR has no cap but it is slower than LTE.

So far, VZW has that limit on their USB based modems. The separate MyFi devices might be unlimited. Since they haven't actually gotten to the stores, we don't know for sure. I did mention that Verizon has to offer that in my previous post.

I say SEND ME THAT TXT ATT!!! I do not tether, but I am at 5.8GB today. going to be higher as I sling TV and listen to SiriusXM on my iPhone today. Both APPROVED apps!!!
Yep, nothing wrong with that.

I think he is just saying that if AT&T is sending this text/email out to high volume data users, then they aren't doing any real investigating for tethering violators.

Furthermore, detecting what kind of data is going through their networks. They can see for instance, if the type of device that originated the request, say, a Laptop running Google Chrome on Windows 7, or an iPhone 3,1, running mobile Safari. They also can simply look at the content that is delivered. If requests are sent to sites that have a mobile version, and they are always sending the desktop version of their page, this is a pretty good indication.

Can AT&T tell the difference between someone tethering to a computer or laptop running Firefox or a jailbroken iPhone running User Agent Faker saying that it's Firefox 3.6? I hate that some websites don't even have a location to switch to the full version.

einmusiker
Mar 22, 2011, 09:46 PM
So far, VZW has that limit on their USB based modems. The separate MyFi devices might be unlimited. Since they haven't actually gotten to the stores, we don't know for sure. I did mention that Verizon has to offer that in my previous post.




I think he is just saying that if AT&T is sending this text/email out to high volume data users, then they aren't doing any real investigating for tethering violators.



Can AT&T tell the difference between someone tethering to a computer or laptop running Firefox or a jailbroken iPhone running User Agent Faker saying that it's Firefox 3.6? I hate that some websites don't even have a location to switch to the full version.

Mifi is NOT unlimited. They wanted to upgrade a line I was canceling. They had the 1,3,5 and 10 gb options

manman
Mar 22, 2011, 11:14 PM
Why don't thieves win? because they are stupid. If they were smart, they would not behave like thieves.

I guess that's why hundreds of thousands of people still download all their music and movies and nothing has happened to them... lookout for the CRACKDOWN!!!!!!!oneoneeleven!

come on dude- get what you can, how you can. It's the American way...and these corporations everyone wants to defend... those are the one who taught us that mentality :)

I agree AT&T is 100% in the right on doing whatever they can to stop it. The thing is- I just don't care. They will try to stop it, and people will come up with a new way to circumvent. Good luck to both sides and let the games continue!

err404
Mar 22, 2011, 11:18 PM
Can AT&T tell the difference between someone tethering to a computer or laptop running Firefox or a jailbroken iPhone running User Agent Faker saying that it's Firefox 3.6? I hate that some websites don't even have a location to switch to the full version.
Yes, they can tell. In fact they don't even have to look at the details of what is being sent. Data routing through a device does not look the same as data requested by the device itself. Theoretically a tethering app could attempt to cloak it's traffic, but none currently exist...

TeamMojo
Mar 22, 2011, 11:52 PM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

<i>iOS 4.3, they may have access to data they didn't before, and they're choosing to use it in a pretty crappy way.</i>

I wonder if these types shoplift and think that's appropriate too. Newsflash. AT&T owns the network. If you don't like to pay for service then go away. I see customers like this all the time. They think they should get everything free and that they have a special right to my time. Makes me sick.

einmusiker
Mar 23, 2011, 06:26 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

<i>iOS 4.3, they may have access to data they didn't before, and they're choosing to use it in a pretty crappy way.</i>

I wonder if these types shoplift and think that's appropriate too. Newsflash. AT&T owns the network. If you don't like to pay for service then go away. I see customers like this all the time. They think they should get everything free and that they have a special right to my time. Makes me sick.

newsflash. theres a reason you work retail then. If you don't want customers expecting exemplary service then we don't expect to be overcharged for your subpar performance.

venture
Mar 23, 2011, 08:45 AM
I would disagree with having "to abide by that contract is law." The courts/judges/legal system would have to decide on this part (ie, whether the TOS are fair and justified and whether violating them is against the law), just like when Apple thought that jailbreaking their iPhone was against the TOS and thus against the law. As we know, the courts decided otherwise. So it is not clear-cut as some people like to think.

Hence, consumers should not willingly accept every TOS that is put in front of them as a holy grail law. If all people accepted Apple's TOS, jailbreaking your iphone would still be illegal according to Apple. Consumers need to actively protect their rights because business will not do it.


There is a difference between breaking the law and breech of contract....

Apple claimed users were breaking the Digital Millenium Act (which is a law) - when they hacked the code on the iPhone to jailbreak them.

AT&T is saying that you are in breech of contract if you tether without a tethering plan - as outline in the TOS in the contract you sign when opening an account.

tbobmccoy
Mar 23, 2011, 09:05 AM
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8F190 Safari/6533.18.5)

<i>iOS 4.3, they may have access to data they didn't before, and they're choosing to use it in a pretty crappy way.</i>

I wonder if these types shoplift and think that's appropriate too. Newsflash. AT&T owns the network. If you don't like to pay for service then go away. I see customers like this all the time. They think they should get everything free and that they have a special right to my time. Makes me sick.

You don't understand the customer mindset, apparently. I myself don't expect everything free, but I do expect a fair price for things. That's why I'll never downgrade my iPhone's data to a 2GB/$25 plan from my unlim/$30 plan. The fact that AT&T/Verizon have a virtual lock on the market is what breeds such contempt for them- there aren't many options because they've eaten their competititon. I can't wait to pay more for access once T-Mo is out of it as well... :rolleyes:

err404
Mar 23, 2011, 09:09 AM
There is a difference between breaking the law and breech of contract....

Apple claimed users were breaking the Digital Millenium Act (which is a law) - when they hacked the code on the iPhone to jailbreak them.

AT&T is saying that you are in breech of contract if you tether without a tethering plan - as outline in the TOS in the contract you sign when opening an account.
Careful with the legal advice... The service that you are paying for is defined in your Terms of Service. Anything beyond that could be considered Theft of Service (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft_of_services). This is how the Cable companies prosecuted customers for accessing premium channels w/o paying.

CubusX
Mar 23, 2011, 11:15 AM
You are in breach of the contract!!!

When 3.0 was released this gave you the ability to tether (this was before the cap on the data plans)!!!

Yes, it is your data and you can use it on your iPhone only. Tehtering is an extra fee that you need a carrier file to enable.

You are breaking the contract, end of story.

Stop being cheap POS and pay for the services you use.

I cannot wait until AT&T does this and we cn see all the posts by all the thiefs complaning they got caught.

I disagree, "I broke the contract". At&t caused it by not offering tethering to me. LOL

Moron, when AT&T allowed tethering with the release of iOS 3.0 you had the ability to add tethering at that time for a $20 fee.

YOU MISSED IT BECUASE YOU WERE TETHERING FOR FREE!!!!

Now that the unlimited data is no longer available you have to move to one of the cap data plans.

AT&T is smart for doing that and they need to find a better way of enforcing it to people who cheat the system.

rkahl
Mar 23, 2011, 12:30 PM
After reading other forums, including the mywi forum, it appears that they are going after EVERYONE who tethers without a plan... and not just the high data user. People who rarely tether have gotten the AT&T notification.

KidStallyn
Mar 23, 2011, 12:59 PM
Mark my words, this will end up as a Class Action Lawsuit. So they have a caluse in there that states you "Cannot Tether". But, it is NOT stealing. If I'm already paying for "Unlimited Data" it should not matter whether that data is being used directly on my phone, or whether or not my phone is being used as a pass thru to a laptop. At the end of the day, it's 1s and 0s. I should not be required to pay a 2nd monthly fee to have this feature enabled on my phone to use an unlimited service that I already pay for.

That's the crux of all this. Yes, there are people paying for it. Does it make it right that ATT is strong-arming them to double pay for something?? Does your home internet service make you pay for every PC, X-Box, Wii, PS3, BluRay Player, whatever electronics device you may have that is connected to that single IP address portal?? The problem is, this is monopolistic. I cannot go to Verizon, because they have the same clause. So in the meantime, until this is all settled, I choose not to tether. I'm using the bajeesus out of my "Unlimited Data" using approved apps from the App Store. If ATT attempts to tell me that I have to stop tethering when I am not, then I will have suitable grounds to generate a lawsuit at that time.

err404
Mar 23, 2011, 01:53 PM
That's the crux of all this. Yes, there are people paying for it. Does it make it right that ATT is strong-arming them to double pay for something??
I'm just trying to be realistic here. Right or wrong, it will be very difficult to prove AT&T's enforcement of the contact terms as being illegal.
Your fooling yourself if you think that the court would force AT&T to provide tethering on your unlimited plan. I would think a best scenario for somebody bringing this case would be the court finding the contract invalid, allowing them to break the contract w/o an ETF. You'd end up spending more on the lawyer then you'd save from the ETF.

KidStallyn
Mar 23, 2011, 01:58 PM
I'm just trying to be realistic here. Right or wrong, it will be very difficult to prove AT&T's enforcement of the contact terms as being illegal.
Your fooling yourself if you think that the court would force AT&T to provide tethering on your unlimited plan. I would think a best scenario for somebody bringing this case would be the court finding the contract invalid, allowing them to break the contract w/o an ETF. You'd end up spending more on the lawyer then you'd save from the ETF.

They would if they falsely accused me of tethering based off of data usage.

err404
Mar 23, 2011, 02:45 PM
They would if they falsely accused me of tethering based off of data usage.
I agree that the burden of proof is on them, but what would your damages actually be? A refund of the extra amount on your bill? They would settle before it got to court and give you back your $15. They would also probably terminate your plan. You won't get the unlimited plan back.

This is all under the assumption that they would modify your plan under false pretenses. The tech exists to reliably determine devices routing traffic through them. AT&T has the ability to track down tethering with no false positives.

rkahl
Mar 23, 2011, 03:06 PM
i agree that the burden of proof is on them, but what would your damages actually be? A refund of the extra amount on your bill? They would settle before it got to court and give you back your $15. They would also probably terminate your plan. You won't get the unlimited plan back.

This is all under the assumption that they would modify your plan under false pretenses. The tech exists to reliably determine devices routing traffic through them. At&t has the ability to track down tethering with no false positives.

+1

Rodimus Prime
Mar 23, 2011, 03:12 PM
Mark my words, this will end up as a Class Action Lawsuit. So they have a caluse in there that states you "Cannot Tether". But, it is NOT stealing. If I'm already paying for "Unlimited Data" it should not matter whether that data is being used directly on my phone, or whether or not my phone is being used as a pass thru to a laptop. At the end of the day, it's 1s and 0s. I should not be required to pay a 2nd monthly fee to have this feature enabled on my phone to use an unlimited service that I already pay for.

That's the crux of all this. Yes, there are people paying for it. Does it make it right that ATT is strong-arming them to double pay for something?? Does your home internet service make you pay for every PC, X-Box, Wii, PS3, BluRay Player, whatever electronics device you may have that is connected to that single IP address portal?? The problem is, this is monopolistic. I cannot go to Verizon, because they have the same clause. So in the meantime, until this is all settled, I choose not to tether. I'm using the bajeesus out of my "Unlimited Data" using approved apps from the App Store. If ATT attempts to tell me that I have to stop tethering when I am not, then I will have suitable grounds to generate a lawsuit at that time.

Umm that arguement is not going to hold up.
In their TOS they clearly state that the data used on your unlimited plan is ONLY for the phone.
Now for the tiered data I can see more of a case for it but for unlimited I think it is fine to block tethering. You laptop is doing to suck down a lot more data than your phone can. There is only so much you can do on your phone.

mdlooker
Mar 23, 2011, 04:37 PM
So I wonder how this changes Ipad 2 model plans with individuals that ordered WiFi only models because of the under-the-radar teathering capabilities? I can only imagine there are a crap-ton of them out there.

I have the unlimited data plan and I JB my phone for the occasional travel where hotspots were unavailable. I wonder almost daily why I even did it because I rarely use it. I didn't get any msg from ATT and I take its because of that very reason.

It's interesting to read all of the different posts and I understand each person's arguement.

I agree that the unlimited data plan for the iphone is just for the iphone and not mad at all that this change has come...Heck I just won't teather and I'll just return the phone back to factory standards.

gravytrain84
Mar 23, 2011, 05:29 PM
How much would it cost me to add tethering to my unlimited data plan? Would I be able to keep unlimited data plus unlimited tethering??

mdlooker
Mar 23, 2011, 05:45 PM
How much would it cost me to add tethering to my unlimited data plan? Would I be able to keep unlimited data plus unlimited tethering??

I called ATT and from what I gathered, if you chose the teathering option, you have to decide which capped plan you would like; 2G or 4G. So I believe that unlimited goes away.

Howdr
Mar 23, 2011, 06:28 PM
How much would it cost me to add tethering to my unlimited data plan? Would I be able to keep unlimited data plus unlimited tethering??

You can't! And thats my beef with At&t:cool:

gravytrain84
Mar 23, 2011, 06:34 PM
You can't! And thats my beef with At&t:cool:

That's messed up

Howdr
Mar 23, 2011, 06:34 PM
I agree that the burden of proof is on them, but what would your damages actually be? A refund of the extra amount on your bill?Yes its happened in the past when At&t lost.

They would settle before it got to court and give you back your $15. They would also probably terminate your plan. No I doubt it, if they see an error then they keep people and collect the revenue, how else do they recoup? Its money and if they did this by the thousands it would do no good to let them go.


This is all under the assumption that they would modify your plan under false pretenses. The tech exists to reliably determine devices routing traffic through them. AT&T has the ability to track down tethering with no false positives.

If At&t is only using high usage as the indication of tethering then yes its false in some cases, if they are detecting packets and its Opra then yes it could be false.

So the answer is yes its possible they could be wrong.

(just trying to debate this some......... I think At&t cannot tell 100% someone is tethering)

err404
Mar 23, 2011, 07:24 PM
If At&t is only using high usage as the indication of tethering then yes its false in some cases, if they are detecting packets and its Opra then yes it could be false.

So the answer is yes its possible they could be wrong.

(just trying to debate this some......... I think At&t cannot tell 100% someone is tethering)

They don't care what app the packets are originating from, they care about which device. The primary way to determine if a device is routing traffic is to look at packet TTL (time to live). A tethered device will generate packets one extra network hop away from your phone.
While it may be possible to cloak tethering activity, it is nearly impossible for AT&T to generate a false positive. The only way for them to receive a false positive detection of tethering would be from a phone with a modified network stack that intentionally falsifies this data. What martyr would run such a thing on their phone?
Even then, this is only one of many possible ways to detect tethering. It's pretty safe to say that if they are detecting tethering, it's real.

marksman
Mar 23, 2011, 09:16 PM
Mark my words, this will end up as a Class Action Lawsuit. So they have a caluse in there that states you "Cannot Tether". But, it is NOT stealing.

It is absolutely without question stealing.



If I'm already paying for "Unlimited Data"

You are paying for unlimited data accessed in a manner in the contract you agreed to with AT&T. You signed the contract, you agreed to the contract.

it should not matter whether that data is being used directly on my phone, or whether or not my phone is being used as a pass thru to a laptop.

It does matter though, and even if it didn't matter you still agreed to the contract.

At the end of the day, it's 1s and 0s. I should not be required to pay a 2nd monthly fee to have this feature enabled on my phone to use an unlimited service that I already pay for.

If you don't pay for tethering you are not paying for data to be used for tethering. Why is this so hard to understand. Should I get unlimited data over DSL with my Wireless connection too? I pay for unlimited data.


That's the crux of all this. Yes, there are people paying for it. Does it make it right that ATT is strong-arming them to double pay for something??


They are not strong arming anyone. You AGREED to the contract and the terms.

Does your home internet service make you pay for every PC, X-Box, Wii, PS3, BluRay Player, whatever electronics device you may have that is connected to that single IP address portal??

If your Home service provider had a way to provide you a service that was in their control that used up a large amount of bandwidth, they would charge you for it. There is no such comparable service for home usage.

I can't really explain how pricing is set on this stuff, but it is pretty simple. It is based on average usage. Tethering increases average usage, thus someone has to pay for it. AT&T can control who can and can not tether. So they charge extra for that, so they can maintain a lower price for people who don't want to tether.

For home data access the providers just have to charge EVERYONE more for those people who use all those devices you mentioned. If they could charge more for them specifically so they could create more affordable plans for people who did not use them they would.


The problem is, this is monopolistic.

Not to be mean, but pretty much everyone complaining about this sound like they are on the short side of 20. This has nothing to do with any sort of business monopoly in any way shape or form.


I cannot go to Verizon, because they have the same clause. So in the meantime, until this is all settled, I choose not to tether. I'm using the bajeesus out of my "Unlimited Data" using approved apps from the App Store. If ATT attempts to tell me that I have to stop tethering when I am not, then I will have suitable grounds to generate a lawsuit at that time.

If you can't afford to pay for your tethering, you probably will not be able to afford a lawyer.

cdavis11
Mar 23, 2011, 10:41 PM
Thanks to AT&T adding free mobile to mobile not too long ago, I was able to take my minutes down a notch and save $20 or so a month.

I recently bought a new ipad2 wifi and was traveling with it. Ran into some trouble with bad airport wifi and decided to use the at&t app on my iPhone to enable the 4gb data plan and the personal hotspot tethering.

Im very pleased with how it's working so far. It's fairly easy to turn it on and off as needed on my cell plan. Overall, a good deal in my opinion.

marksman
Mar 23, 2011, 11:54 PM
Thats the rub, the contracts may not be ethical since they provide tethering with added GB to anyone who cannot get the unlimited anymore. I want the option to tether. If they just charged a simple gateway fee people would pay it,instead they refuse and thats the issue.

What is not ethical is trying to justify why others should subsidize your usage even further or more importantly those who flat out want to steal service so others have to pay more.




It may be illegal

It is not illegal.


Its the same data, and we are not allowed to tether unless we give up unlimited.

It is not the same data.



You also have trouble supporting At&t's side except......it's in the contract.
I and others have pointed out that whats in a contract may or may not be binding once a judge makes a decision.

The foundation for contract law is consideration. There is consideration given here... There is nothing out of bounds here or nothing for a judge to make a decision on other then dismissing any relevant lawsuit.

What are you going to sue them for? Giving you exactly what they agreed to give you for the price they agreed to give it to you for?

That is an unlikely foundation for a succesful legal challenge.



Lets look at At&t's side, Harm, to sue you must have Harm in some way.

If I tether how have I harmed At&t?
I used 3gb of Data in a month with phone and tether.

You did not contract with AT&T to get data via tethered. You agreed, in fact, to NOT tether any devices or use your data in that way. If you want to tether the plan exists for you to pay for data for that. It is not the same data, as your contract with AT&T does NOT allow you to use your data for tethering on the unlimited plan and/or without paying for the tethering option.

People keep wanting to say it is the same, but it is absolutely not the same. It is not what AT&T agreed to sell to you, and not what you agreed to pay for... Please supply the contract where AT&T agreed to sell you tethered data for your regular data plan price. Have you even read your contract with AT&T? What contracts say actually are very important to all of this. Not having actually read it is a pretty big drawback to you discussing any of this, that and your apparent inexperience with contracts in general.



What harm have I done to At&t? You said its not about money, but in court you will not be able to convince a Jury that Data does not equal Data, so what is left is the $15 a month they lost with the 2+2 plan.

You have used more data than you have paid to use. AT&T sets their data usage prices based on average usage of customers. Customers who tether absolutely use more data. That is why they charge more. If they didn't then they would have to charge everyone more money for their access to compensate for the increased cost of usage. Personally, I don't want to pay more per month for you to tether. I am fine with YOU paying for you to tether. I know for some reason some of you who get riled up about this can not comprehend the idea of companies setting their prices on average usage, but I promise you it is extremely common. I have done it in my own businesses for well over 20 years.

Why do companies choose to do this? Because it allows them to price things more affordably as the lower usage customers subsidize the higher usage customers. If everyone got charged exactly for how much they used, or if everyone got charged for the potential of using all their bandwidth every month, then the price for service would be much more. In this case 2 gigs of data from AT&T where you were guaranteed to use all that data every month, you would probably be looking at paying $75-$80 a month.

However since AT&T does price based on average usage, and say the average user might use 300 megs a month, they are able to sell that 2 gig package for only $25.00. If they include tethering for free the average will go up, because nobody who adds tethering will start using less data overall. With this addition, say the average monthly usage goes up to 600 megs a month. AT&T's expense for providing that data has now doubled. To make up for it, AT&T has a few options. They could just eat it and potentially lose money, or have significantly reduced profits, at the very best.

Secondly they could raise the price for everyone and perhaps raise the price to $35 a month for everyone and it would include tethering. Even the person who uses 250 megs a month would be paying $35 a month.

Thirdly, they could charge those people who want to tether a fee for that access to cover their increased bandwidth usage. This allows them to maintain a lower price point for the rest of their customers. So they guy using 250 megs who continues to use 250 megs keeps paying $25 a month, and the guy who went from using 900 megs a month to using 2.7 gigs a month pays $45 a month, thus covering their own increased costs for using the network.

Certainly some may claim that AT&T should just eat the increased cost, but that is not a reasonable expectation when considering all factors. So really the only correct solution for everyone is for AT&T to do what they are doing.

They are already stretching the tolerance for customer subsidization as it is. Introducing the $15 plan was a big help with that, as previously those people were paying $15 more per month for less than 200 megs they used every month, so some other guy could use 20 gigs a month.

What if AT&T tiered it even further and made it so everyone pays $8 per 500 megs they use a month. So someone who uses 400 megs a month pays only $8 for data, and the guy who uses 3.2 gigs pays $56 a month. If they did that then they could probably include tethering.



So it does come down to money.

Yeah it comes down to me not wanting to spend my money for your internet data. I want you to spend your own money for your internet data. AT&T seems to agree.

aedude01
Mar 24, 2011, 08:15 AM
I see nothing wrong with AT&T cracking down. You signed a contract that specifically said you had no interest in tethering. But if you use it, then you lied when you signed your contract which means AT&T has the right to modify it.

Hey, it's better then them blackballing you and making you pay the remainder of your phone's cost.


Funny, I signed a contract when tethering wasn't even an option, nor was it even thought of by most people.

Ohnevah
Mar 24, 2011, 08:16 AM
Can they still detect me on firmware 4.0.1? Or it doesn't matter?

aristobrat
Mar 24, 2011, 08:42 AM
Mark my words, this will end up as a Class Action Lawsuit.
AT&T, Verizon and T-Mobile have all enforced the "no tethering" and "device eligibility" (i.e. using a smartphone on a cheaper, usually unlimited data plan that was intended for a dumbphone) policies multiple times before, over the last several years.

Maybe this time will be different, but in the past, they've never been sued for enforcing policies like this, AFAIK.

Rodimus Prime
Mar 24, 2011, 08:50 AM
Can they still detect me on firmware 4.0.1? Or it doesn't matter?

Does not matter what versions you are running.

alent1234
Mar 24, 2011, 08:55 AM
Just wondering how they are monitoring this. How do they know if you are tethering? I average 6-8GB a month in data usage. I never use Wi-Fi because TWC sucks in NYC and have been streaming videos to my iPhone over 3G. I tether once in awhile to my Dell Streak, but not enough to stir up a red flag. Am I going to get this message?

i have TWC as well in NYC and can't remember the last time i had a problem with the internet part

quaternio
Mar 24, 2011, 09:37 AM
Let's try explaining it this way...

When you subscribe to cable, you pick a package that provides you with the channels that you want. There are various packages, but ultimately it's all just video streaming over a cable (bits in this day and age, not analog)...


This is a poor analogy. This would be correct if we were talking about AT&T preventing you from viewing porn sites, and if you were circumventing the system to go to porn sites; then what you are describing would be analogous.

err404
Mar 24, 2011, 09:58 AM
You have used more data than you have paid to use. AT&T sets their data usage prices based on average usage of customers. Customers who tether absolutely use more data. That is why they charge more.

I agree with your sentiment, but the bright side is that while heavy unlimited data users will impact network performance, there is little direct cost that needs to be diverted to limit plan users.
The cost of high data usage is indirect. Once the towers become overloaded -> service suffers -> reputation suffers -> customers leave.

AT&T's cost for the RAW data is probably quite low. Their costs are primarily on the tower infrastructure, which they need regardless of the amount of data pushed. The issue for cell providers is that the technology only allows for a finite amount of bandwidth to be provided within a physical area. It's a physics limitation. In most cases of overloaded towers, they can't simply spend more money to increase capacity. All they can do is limp along waiting for the 4G roll out to extend the real capacity and try to keep data usage down.

The high charge for data is meant as a deterrent to reduce usage, not to simply recoup costs. It's ironic that the only/best way AT&T can increase network reliability is to just charge users more for data. They are using accounting to address an infrastructure limitation.

err404
Mar 24, 2011, 10:03 AM
Funny, I signed a contract when tethering wasn't even an option, nor was it even thought of by most people.
You're saying essentially the same thing. You bought the plan w/o the intention of tethering. Why would you expect the feature to be included now?

quaternio
Mar 24, 2011, 10:10 AM
I don't really care about people's opinions about the ethical question (I'm on a limited, 2GB plan and will not be convinced that I am doing anything wrong by tethering). What I want to know is if there are any MyFi users that have low data usage that are being sent this message (I doubt I'll spend 500MB a month tethering).

Where should I go if I'm only looking for facts about who is receiving these messages and theories as to who exactly will be threatened thusly? I don't want to have to sift through these opinions that I care nothing about.

Rodimus Prime
Mar 24, 2011, 10:20 AM
figure we can post a list of things that AT&T can used to know for sure if someone is tethering.
You have TTL flags which they can nail you on.
Another is look at what type of data you are using. For example it is not hard to know if someone is using bit torrent by looking at how the data packets are going 2 and from. They know bit torrent does not work on any phone. That is a computer only.
Massive amounts of uploads. Again limited to only a computer.
Connecting to gaming network that do not have any games for phone (iffier here on false positives).

the TTL flags will create no false positives. The bit torrent one will not create any false positives.

aristobrat
Mar 24, 2011, 10:27 AM
Where should I go if I'm only looking for facts about who is receiving these messages and theories as to who exactly will be threatened thusly? I don't want to have to sift through these opinions that I care nothing about.
Take the effort and start a separate thread that tracks specifically that, if one doesn't already exist.

gco212
Mar 24, 2011, 10:45 AM
The foundation for contract law is consideration. There is consideration given here... There is nothing out of bounds here or nothing for a judge to make a decision on other then dismissing any relevant lawsuit.

What are you going to sue them for? Giving you exactly what they agreed to give you for the price they agreed to give it to you for?

That is an unlikely foundation for a succesful legal challenge.


You could likely sue AT&T for unilaterally modifying your contract if they actually change your plan to the tethering plan. The damages are difficult to prove, the modification clause is punitive, and there is no liquidated damages clause.

jasvncnt
Mar 24, 2011, 10:47 AM
So im just wondering....If you are using mywi..i assume you are stealing?

marksman
Mar 24, 2011, 10:48 AM
You could likely sue AT&T for unilaterally modifying your contract if they actually change your plan to the tethering plan. The damages are difficult to prove, the modification clause is punitive, and there is no liquidated damages clause.

Yeah you could and of course you could balance that against them trying to pursue getting criminal charges filed against you for theft of service... So the likelihood you are going to steal from AT&T and then sue them for modifying your contract unilaterally is pretty slim, and they know that.

quaternio
Mar 24, 2011, 11:06 AM
Take the effort and start a separate thread that tracks specifically that, if one doesn't already exist.

Well I suspect that others might be privy if such a thread exists already (here on on another forum); I typically don't like hedge discussions on such matters. But I was planning on making just such a thread if no one gave me a good answer.

Oh, and to others, I do not steal apps and I would not be using the tethering for torrents, etc. As I believe I already said, I expect my tethered data usage would be below 500MB, and I am already on the 2GB LIMITED plan.

pdjudd
Mar 24, 2011, 11:10 AM
So im just wondering....If you are using mywi..i assume you are stealing?

AT&T would arge that the only reason you are using said program is because you are bypassing (illegally) their plan requirements for having a tethering plan that you obviously do not have. They could argue that since they have the contract that you agreed to along with any terms of service that you agree to.

AT&T would argue that if you have a legitimate tethering plan, you would use the built in tethering systems and not a third party app that you can only get via a jailbreak. That would imply that you knew that it was not an allowable action.

CubusX
Mar 24, 2011, 11:17 AM
How much would it cost me to add tethering to my unlimited data plan? Would I be able to keep unlimited data plus unlimited tethering??

You can't. You missed the train when you didn't do it prior to the release of 4.0.

You can't! And thats my beef with At&t:cool:

You had an entire year to add unlimited data tethering for $20 a month and you did not do so. It's your fault and not AT&T's. Why should AT&T pay for your stealing (free tethering) or other users for your lack of actions or thought? Your angry because you can not tether your unlimited data plan legally?


AT&T needs to take the unlimited data plan off the table, thats the bottom line. When users upgrade to the iPhone 5 (or another phone), they should be forced to change data plans, that way all the data is capped. You want to tether, buy the plan (with the extra 2GB of data) or pay $10 for each aditional GB over the allowed 2GB of data.

Not happy go to another network. Unlimited data is coming to end. AT&T did it, Verizon is going to do it over the summer, T-Mobile will most likely be a part of AT&T so thats done, and Sprint just sucks.

I look at it like this:

Using free tehtering, is like someone taking advantage of government assistance progrms that do not truly need it.

Howdr
Mar 24, 2011, 11:18 AM
Yeah you could and of course you could balance that against them trying to pursue getting criminal charges filed against you for theft of service... So the likelihood you are going to steal from AT&T and then sue them for modifying your contract unilaterally is pretty slim, and they know that.
Theft of wHat?

You pay for unlimited data
You use the data

Again what can you prove? At&t will say:
On day 1 they used Data on the phone
On day 2 they Used Data on the Phone and "We believe" from a connected laptop.

They used 10mb day one
They used 100mb day two

so 110 of unlimted data was used.

I would insist on a Jury because I'm a geek, most of them or all of them will barely know how to install a program......... Your going to expect them to agree At&t is hurt by tethering? Really?

as a Lawyer I would point out that Tethering is a function and not Data.
Its like flipping a light switch in your home to turn on a light, if you use fluorescent or incandescent or you put an air conditioner on electrons are used. At&t wants to charge extra for flipping a switch to use the same electrons. Silly and double charging.

Your assuming At&t has the right to double charge, I assume they do not, its for a court to decide in the end.:cool:

In the same understanding, only a small percentage know how to JB and enable tethering anyway, most pay for it because they do not know how.
I did self help and turned it on so I save the "Fee".


You had an entire year to add unlimited data tethering for $20 a month and you did not do so. It's your fault and not AT&T's. Why should AT&T pay for your stealing (free tethering) or other users for your lack of actions or thought? Your angry because you can not tether your unlimited data plan legally? When and if so when was it Grandfathered? I never saw it............ If your going to be judgmental please do so with facts.

Also I look at it like this:

Using free tehtering, is like someone taking advantage of government assistance progrms that do not truly need it. Its not free I pay for my Data. Your comparing what people do not pay for with what people pay for.:eek:

jasvncnt
Mar 24, 2011, 11:19 AM
I was only curious because wouldn't using mywi kinda be the same as using any cracked app?

quaternio
Mar 24, 2011, 11:25 AM
I was only curious because wouldn't using mywi kinda be the same as using any cracked app?

MyWi is a PAID app on the Cydia store.

(!!! AGAIN, I am completely uninterested in anyone's opinion about how wrong I am, or whether AT&T is or isn't justified in charging me for the service.)

Howdr
Mar 24, 2011, 11:27 AM
MyWi is a PAID app on the Cydia store.

(!!! AGAIN, I am completely uninterested in anyone's opinion about how wrong I am, or whether AT&T is or isn't justified in charging me for the service.)
Read my new post, ;)


marksman
macrumors 68040

You have used more data than you have paid to use. AT&T sets their data usage prices based on average usage of customers. Customers who tether absolutely use more data. That is why they charge more. If they didn't then they would have to charge everyone more money for their access to compensate for the increased cost of usage. Personally, I don't want to pay more per month for you to tether. I am fine with YOU paying for you to tether. I know for some reason some of you who get riled up about this can not comprehend the idea of companies setting their prices on average usage, but I promise you it is extremely common. I have done it in my own businesses for well over 20 years............Why do companies choose to do this? Because it allows them to price things more affordably as the lower usage customers subsidize the higher usage customers. If everyone got charged exactly for how much they used, or if everyone got charged for the potential of using all their bandwidth every month, then the price for service would be much more. In this case 2 gigs of data from AT&T where you were guaranteed to use all that data every month, you would probably be looking at paying $75-$80 a month.

However since AT&T does price based on average usage, and say the average user might use 300 megs a month, they are able to sell that 2 gig package for only $25.00. If they include tethering for free the average will go up, because nobody who adds tethering will start using less data overall. With this addition, say the average monthly usage goes up to 600 megs a month. AT&T's expense for providing that data has now doubled. To make up for it, AT&T has a few options. They could just eat it and potentially lose money, or have significantly reduced profits, at the very best.

Secondly they could raise the price for everyone and perhaps raise the price to $35 a month for everyone and it would include tethering. Even the person who uses 250 megs a month would be paying $35 a month.

This makes no logical sense, Unlimited Data and using more Data then you paid for?..................... Again this logic is based on emotions not facts.

Fact Unlimited
Fact cannot overuse Unlimited

And I read your statement about Data usage, you contend that all Unlimited plan users are using too much data when they go over 2gb?
Because At&t expects the average user to use 300mb? I'm not sure we are talking about Unlimited then? What are we talking about?

Fact 2gb
Fact if you tether and are 2gb or less you have stayed within the data limit.


Fact arguing is useless when its emotional...............


We disagree lets not make it more then that.

As far as calculating what you make and what your customers use has nothing with providing a service and what in reality people use. If you run a service business they may or may not use it. If you sell plans to at $100 a pop on computers that would fix them for free or replace them knowing that over 90% will not use the plan in the end based on years past, then 6 months from that figure rose to 70% using the plan to fix and or replace, its not the customers fault you have provided the plan. that is comparable to people using unlimited, if At&t wants people to stop using 50gb a month, then At&t must discontinue the plan. Its At&t's fault not theirs.

I Hurt no one by tethering it can't be proven because no one has proven it.

At&t want to collect more money and more fees thats all it is.

I feel there are some At&t employees posting on here these days.

err404
Mar 24, 2011, 11:33 AM
You could likely sue AT&T for unilaterally modifying your contract if they actually change your plan to the tethering plan. The damages are difficult to prove, the modification clause is punitive, and there is no liquidated damages clause.
It's a modification to a plan in order to account for actual services consumed. Keep in mind that your contract authorizes them to modify your plan with with sufficient prior notice.

You're looking at a long uphill legal battle, with potentially severe consequences for loosing

CubusX
Mar 24, 2011, 11:35 AM
Also Its not free I pay for my Data. Your comparing what people do not pay for with what people pay for.:eek:

YOU PAY FOR THE DATA THAT IS USED ON THE PHONE ONLY AND NOT THROUGH TETHERING!!!

IT STATES IN THE CONTRACT THAT YOU NEED A TETHERING PLAN TO TETHER!!!

YOU ARE BREAKING THE CONTRACT AND STEALING BECIASE YOU ARE USING A FEE BASED SERVICE FOR FREE!!!!

I really cannot believe that there are this many people that do not undersatnd contracts, laws, and binding agreements... Whether it is just plain stupidity or you are just oblivious.

jasvncnt
Mar 24, 2011, 11:45 AM
MyWi is a PAID app on the Cydia store.

(!!! AGAIN, I am completely uninterested in anyone's opinion about how wrong I am, or whether AT&T is or isn't justified in charging me for the service.)

I understand that. But if they are saying you "require" a plan to tether..and you dont have one....then...it looks like its kinda stealing. Doesnt matter to me what anyone does. I don't use mywi. Just wondering how people that are against cracked apps because its stealing feel about this.

Howdr
Mar 24, 2011, 11:46 AM
YOU PAY FOR THE DATA THAT IS USED ON THE PHONE ONLY AND NOT THROUGH TETHERING!!!

IT STATES IN THE CONTRACT THAT YOU NEED A TETHERING PLAN TO TETHER!!!

YOU ARE BREAKING THE CONTRACT AND STEALING BECIASE YOU ARE USING A FEE BASED SERVICE FOR FREE!!!!

I really cannot believe that there are this many people that do not undersatnd contracts, laws, and binding agreements... Whether it is just plain stupidity or you are just oblivious. I understand the contract, I can't believe that what I write is ignored so much. I said

I disagree with the contract
tethering is not an option
I have unlimited data.

I hurt no one.


Also because its in a contract does not mean its legal and binding.......been over this so many times,
(Do not write in caps its shouting on the internet).

Rodimus Prime
Mar 24, 2011, 11:54 AM
I understand the contract, I can't believe that what I write is ignored so much. I said

I disagree with the contract
tethering is not an option
I have unlimited data.

I hurt no one.


Also because its in a contract does not mean its legal and binding.......been over this so many times,
(Do not write in caps its shouting on the internet).

I think it is more you are ignoring what we have been telling you time and time again. Also it is pretty clear YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE CONTRACT.
Usage of charge for the unlimited data usage is based off of a model. That model is assumed data usage of the PHONE ONLY. Tethering increasing the average usage of a person so it throws off the model on how they charge which is why there was always an increased fee to teather to account for the higher average usage of the person.

Also you are wrong on the fact that you hurt other people because of your higher usage you are sucking down more of the the very limited bandwidth that others can no longer use.
The contract clearly states that is data usage is ONLY and I REPEAT ONLY for data on the phone. Not routed to other devices.

Also from an earlier post it where you say it can not be proven if you are teathering multiple ones of us has shown it is very easy to do to figure out with out any question if you are tethering your phone. You just look at the data for example and see if there is an extra hop in there. and if there is an extra hop boom you are teathering. there are other ways as well.

Also your entire argument is based on emotion and you are trying to justify the fact you are breaking your contract and stealing data.

pdjudd
Mar 24, 2011, 11:59 AM
I understand the contract, I can't believe that what I write is ignored so much. I said

I disagree with the contract
tethering is not an option
I have unlimited data.

I hurt no one.


If you disagree with teh contract, than don't sign it. Either abide by the terms outlined or do not sign. You may not have the best of both worlds, but that is not an implied right.


Also because its in a contract does not mean its legal and binding.......been over this so many times,
(Do not write in caps its shouting on the internet).

Fine, try and take AT&T to court on it. In the mean time, we have to consider it valid. I doubt that you will succeed in convincing a judge that AT&T terms are illegal in any way since you are not forced to enter into a contract with them in the first place.

Exactly what standing do you have (other than a personal opinion) that the contract is invalid. Can you cite any legal doctrine on this - I guarantee you thats the first thing a judge is going to ask for.
ETA 2: Rhodius explained it much better. The unlimited data plan specifically covers the phone and nothing else.

rkahl
Mar 24, 2011, 12:11 PM
I don't really care about people's opinions about the ethical question (I'm on a limited, 2GB plan and will not be convinced that I am doing anything wrong by tethering). What I want to know is if there are any MyFi users that have low data usage that are being sent this message (I doubt I'll spend 500MB a month tethering).

Where should I go if I'm only looking for facts about who is receiving these messages and theories as to who exactly will be threatened thusly? I don't want to have to sift through these opinions that I care nothing about.

Google MyFi forums. They have a thread just like this one where several people have been sent the message even with low usage (less than 5gb). It doesn't sound as if usage matter's on tethering. You either are or your not according to AT&T.

err404
Mar 24, 2011, 12:12 PM
I understand the contract, I can't believe that what I write is ignored so much. I said

I disagree with the contract
This a valid point - just very hard to support w/o the courts involvement. Many people on this thread don't believe that the tethering clause is illegal.
tethering is not an option
AT&T has no obligation to provide mix and match plans to your convenience, but if you first point holds it doesn't matter.
I have unlimited data.
Not really relevant. If you first point holds, the type of plan doesn't matter. Nothing in the contract terms suggest that unlimited or limited plans differ in regards to tethering. Neither unlimited or 2GB allow it.

Just trying to keep the discussion focused :rolleyes:

rkahl
Mar 24, 2011, 12:19 PM
Dear Howdr, if you don't feel like your doing anything wrong just call AT&T and ask them specifically. Just explain to them who you are, how long you've been a customer, you pay your bills in a timely manner. I would say in a calm and pleasant voice that data=data and that you should be able to tether under your rules. I'm sure they will make an exception just for you and give you a free tethering pass for life!

Scott6666
Mar 24, 2011, 12:24 PM
I disagree with the contract


Funny.

You can't really disagree with a contract you've agreed to. You may not have had an opportunity to negotiate with ATT what you wanted but once you accepted it you agreed to it, legally speaking.

Doc750
Mar 24, 2011, 12:31 PM
been tethering all morning ..... feels great!

gco212
Mar 24, 2011, 01:13 PM
Yeah you could and of course you could balance that against them trying to pursue getting criminal charges filed against you for theft of service... So the likelihood you are going to steal from AT&T and then sue them for modifying your contract unilaterally is pretty slim, and they know that.

Yes, AT&T is very likely to encourage police to charge thousands of customers in dozens of jurisdictions with theft of service. ;) It would be a class action suit and not one AT&T would win.

reckless2k2
Mar 24, 2011, 01:22 PM
I wonder if there is any type of compensation for turning offenders in. Hahaha. Like I get a free month or 2 of service. What an incentive. Hahaha.

Has anyone that has been alerted been switched to a tethering plan yet by AT&T?

pdjudd
Mar 24, 2011, 02:26 PM
Yes, AT&T is very likely to encourage police to charge thousands of customers in dozens of jurisdictions with theft of service. ;) It would be a class action suit and not one AT&T would win.
Why bother when they can exercise the clause in their contracts and either charge consumers for the specified plans or just outright disconnect them. It's far easier to do that ever though your idea is quite wrong. I have little doubt that AT&T would win.

gco212
Mar 24, 2011, 02:32 PM
Why bother when they can exercise the clause in their contracts and either charge consumers for the specified plans or just outright disconnect them. It's far easier to do that ever though your idea is quite wrong. I have little doubt that AT&T would win.

You can't modify the contract by upgrading them under contract law. That does not estimate damages AT&T suffered through the tethering nor was it estimated to be the damages at the time the contract was created. The unilateral modification clause is not valid.

A termination would be valid, however.

manman
Mar 24, 2011, 02:46 PM
does anyone know of anyone yet who has actually had their plan switched, been taken to court, or otherwise punished for doing this? Probably not.

You can all argue till you're blue in the face about how ethical it is, whether or not there are legal issues involved etc, but until people ACTUALLY feel any effect of this more than a stupid text message nothing is going to change. Chances are even if they do take action they won't expend the energy to hit everyone, it will be some small percentage and things still won't change. I know the people swinging from AT&Ts nuts here will deny it up and down and swear they'll catch everyone and save the daaay.....but meanwhile...back in the real world, everything stays the same.

rkahl
Mar 24, 2011, 02:51 PM
does anyone know of anyone yet who has actually had their plan switched, been taken to court, or otherwise punished for doing this? Probably not.

You can all argue till you're blue in the face about how ethical it is, whether or not there are legal issues involved etc, but until people ACTUALLY feel any effect of this more than a stupid text message nothing is going to change. Chances are even if they do take action they won't expend the energy to hit everyone, it will be some small percentage and things still won't change. I know the people swinging from AT&Ts nuts here will deny it up and down and swear they'll catch everyone and save the daaay.....but meanwhile...back in the real world, everything stays the same.

LOL, it's only been a week! The villains have until March 27th to correct their actions. Gotta love the "It's not gonna happen to me" mentality in here!

manman
Mar 24, 2011, 03:04 PM
keep ooooon swingin buddy :)

It's been a week since enough people saw this to post about it. Longer than that since AT&T took notice of it and started to address it. 1 week, 5 months...won't matter. Revisit this thread at the end of the year, see if people aren't still tethering with miwi, etc with no problem. This thread will be more of a joke then it already is probably just a few months from now...

"it's not gonna happen to me" mentality?....mmmm kinda. More like "it's not going to happen to a significan't number of people to make a dent in stopping this, and I could care less if it does happen to me."

Howdr
Mar 24, 2011, 03:41 PM
Dear Howdr, if you don't feel like your doing anything wrong just call AT&T and ask them specifically. Just explain to them who you are, how long you've been a customer, you pay your bills in a timely manner. I would say in a calm and pleasant voice that data=data and that you should be able to tether under your rules. I'm sure they will make an exception just for you and give you a free tethering pass for life!
I would If I could afford to go to another carrier at this time.

I'd like to think you are sarcastic when you post this.

I have a position that comes into conflict with At&t's contract, why would I call them? They have already stated their position and I'm stating mine.

I'm not confronting them because I am using self help to take care of my personal position.

What about this, every time you go over the posted speed limit you call the local police and tell them, you Licensed plate number, name and adress to send the ticket.

You disagree with the speed limits, you break them right? So why not confront the authorities about?

You made an illegal turn or did not yeild right of way, why not turn yourself in?

I mean jeesh............ I'm doing nothing but using my data as are others and you all turn it into a Major Federal Case of racketeering or something.

People ther is no difference between streaming a video and tethering.

Data=Data and nothing on this thread has proven otherwise.

This argument is going in circles

When you go over the speed limit or doing illegal things like fooling with your cell phone in your car you are truly breaking a law

when we tether we are not even breaking a law, we are just using our data plan...............( no a contract is not a law, its an agreement and in this case it was negotiated you have no say in it)



Rodimus Prime: I think it is more you are ignoring what we have been telling you time and time again. Also it is pretty clear YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE CONTRACT. I understand it and disagree with it, stop telling me I do not understand

Usage of charge for the unlimited data usage is based off of a model. That model is assumed data usage of the PHONE ONLY. Tethering increasing the average usage of a person so it throws off the model on how they charge which is why there was always an increased fee to teather to account for the higher average usage of the person.No this is not correct, unlimited Data is unlimited Data can't be defined by a "Model"AT&t can easily discontinue it and start a 5gb if they want, they have in the past, I have the proof.

Also you are wrong on the fact that you hurt other people because of your higher usage you are sucking down more of the the very limited bandwidth that others can no longer use.Doesn't matter, KB is KB I'm not the one who keeps arguing somehow magically the laptop makes 3G faster Sir or (Madam)

Also from an earlier post it where you say it can not be proven if you are teathering multiple ones of us has shown it is very easy to do to figure out with out any question if you are tethering your phone. You just look at the data for example and see if there is an extra hop in there. and if there is an extra hop boom you are teathering. there are other ways as well. So far on all the forums I have visited not one person has any proof that At&t can tell and At&t has been unable to produce the proof to the said offenders, they have a legal right to see the evidence if they are accused.

My argument is based on facts Sir or Madam I see plenty of emotion from others here. I Pay my bills each month, I rarely tether, I use less then 1gb a month and have an unlimited plan but I want the freedom to use the plan when I need it. Whats the use of unlimited if you do not use it Or cannot use it? Also I pay more a month the the average since the average is 25 for data my plan is 30, its 30 because its more data......(Hint)

Lastly I thought this was clear:

Originally Posted by Howdr
I understand the contract, I can't believe that what I write is ignored so much. I said

I disagree with the contract
tethering is not an option
I have unlimited data.

I hurt no one.


Also because its in a contract does not mean its legal and binding.......been over this so many times,.

err404
Mar 24, 2011, 04:00 PM
when we tether we are not even breaking a law, we are just using our data plan...............( no a contract is not a law, its an agreement and in this case it was negotiated you have no say in it)

Your contract defines the scope of your service. Since tethering is beyond the scope of your service agreement, it's Theft of Service.

Similarly to how accessing premium cable content while paying for basic cable is Theft of Service.

This would need to go to court to establish it's legality, but there is president to suggest that it is theft.

rkahl
Mar 24, 2011, 04:07 PM
Howdr, if I were you i'd surely get an attorney. Clearly you aren't doing anything wrong. :rolleyes:

CubusX
Mar 24, 2011, 04:23 PM
Howdr,

If you disagreed with the contract why did you sign it?

I wish I could be there when AT&T changes your plan or terminates your service for breach of contract.

What's your excus going to be? I was only tethering some of the time lol

djwindsor
Mar 24, 2011, 04:36 PM
Having read a great many of the comments on this thread, I'd like to add my $0.02. Let me preface by saying that I am JB and that I rarely tether. With that said, I feel tethering should be free with any type of data plan. However, there should be a limit with respect to people that tether as their primary means of access to the internet on a laptop or desktop. What that limit should be set at is something I am not about to suggest. I'm using the logic that my unlimited data is merely being plugged into a bigger screen (my laptop). I'm still accessing the web, but on a larger screen!!!! BIG DEAL!!!!! That's the only reason I tether because I have broadband at home. I also DO NOT have their rip off $20 month texting fee because I use textfee with my own assigned number. No issues whatsoever!!! My bill is less than $80 bucks a month with taxes. Now, as to how you can get even with these morons?? Take your JB phone and continuously play Netflix all day. Talk about burning 3G data!!!!

err404
Mar 24, 2011, 04:49 PM
Take your JB phone and continuously play Netflix all day. Talk about burning 3G data!!!!

Feel free. Using data on your device is exactly what you plan is meant for.

However keep in mind that this serves to enforce the need for them to take action against other users for usage outside of the TOS. If they didn't, they wouldn't be able to support your 'needs'.

Cinemagic
Mar 24, 2011, 04:52 PM
It may be in the contract that tethering without a tethering plan is disallowed. But the courts are filled with cases where one party contests a provision in a contract. Just because it's in a contract does not make it enforceable. It may not matter that you agreed. If the provision is determined unenforceable by the court, then it no longer becomes a part of the contract. If the case were heard in court and upheld upon appeal, then that court decision would let everyone know if the provision was indeed either enforceable or unenforceable.

My contention is that AT&T is charging it's customers twice for the same data. I personally don't find this fair and think a reasonable arguement could be made that AT&T's tethering provision is unenforceable. Obviously others here and (I'm sure) AT&T's lawyers feel to the contrary. But until someone decides to take AT&T to court over this provision, then we can argue here all day long with no winners or losers.

tbobmccoy
Mar 24, 2011, 05:12 PM
It may be in the contract that tethering without a tethering plan is disallowed. But the courts are filled with cases where one party contests a provision in a contract. Just because it's in a contract does not make it enforceable. It may not matter that you agreed. If the provision is determined unenforceable by the court, then it no longer becomes a part of the contract. If the case were heard in court and upheld upon appeal, then that court decision would let everyone know if the provision was indeed either enforceable or unenforceable.

My contention is that AT&T is charging it's customers twice for the same data. I personally don't find this fair and think a reasonable arguement could be made that AT&T's tethering provision is unenforceable. Obviously others here and (I'm sure) AT&T's lawyers feel to the contrary. But until someone decides to take AT&T to court over this provision, then we can argue here all day long with no winners or losers.

This is especially true, and I would say that a contract that allows for a provision giving AT&T carte blanche to add charges without prior authorization by the user would be thrown out.

Howdr
Mar 24, 2011, 08:32 PM
Howdr,

If you disagreed with the contract why did you sign it?

I wish I could be there when AT&T changes your plan or terminates your service for breach of contract.

What's your excus going to be? I was only tethering some of the time lol

I signed mine in 2007 it was not in the contract then.............

I have never received a letter and never will. I'm 100% sure of that.

Why did you sign your contract LOL

I'd love to be there to see your reaction when tethering becomes free like it should be.



Your contract defines the scope of your service. Since tethering is beyond the scope of your service agreement, it's Theft of Service.
for the thousand time something must be stolen to be theft, again what has been stolen. Tethering is a switch and data is data.

Similarly to how accessing premium cable content while paying for basic cable is Theft of Service. I'm not stealing cable just using my data

This would need to go to court to establish it's legality, but there is president to suggest that it is theft. for it to be theft again something has to be stolen, because its in the contract does not mean a court will agree its a chargeable item, it may not be as I feel. Its a switch.

Is it me or are there a core of 4 people who jump on anyone that thinks tethering is ok? I mean why? Why do we need to keep debating this? this thread is becoming useless............

marksman
Mar 24, 2011, 08:51 PM
There is nothing wrong with tethering, if you buy the service and pay for it.

If you steal it, then that is something different. Nobody has a problem with tethering, they just have a problem with people stealing it. Same way a lot of people have had issues with people who steal cable tv, or pretty much anything else.

In this case it is worse because people stealing tethering are using up limited resources that belong to other users. So it impacts everyone else.

I don't feel that steak in the grocery store is a chargeable item, and I already got $100 worth of groceries I will just take it. Keep trying to convince yourself that stealing is not stealing. The justifications are weak and shallow but if they let you sleep at night, whatever.

It is clear that a lot of people here don't understand how contracts and contract law works. If two parties agree to terms in a contract, it is legal and consideration is offered it is valid. There is no special loophole where you just get out of a contract because you feel like they should include it. The contract specifically outlines that you can not use their normal service for tethering. Again the contract contains consideration for both sides, so there is nothing illegal or invalid about it. Nobody forced anyone to sign the contract, it was a choice you made when you signed up for the service. You gave them money they gave you service. The service they provide you is very clearly spelled out in the contract.

Some of you seem to think there is some magical contract land o fairy dust where you can nullify contracts because you don't like them or did not bother to read them.

Beyond all this silliness, again those of you saying that it should be included just don't get it. If AT&T includes it then they just raise the price for everyone. That is the ONLY result. There is no fairytale ending where you force AT&T to give you unlimited tethering or included tethering for the same price. That doesn't happen, yet it is clear for some weird reason many of you think that is possible.


You can't modify the contract by upgrading them under contract law. That does not estimate damages AT&T suffered through the tethering nor was it estimated to be the damages at the time the contract was created. The unilateral modification clause is not valid.

A termination would be valid, however.


And that is what ultimately will happen to people. If they refuse to have the tethering added on, then their contract will be terminated.

Howdr
Mar 24, 2011, 09:05 PM
No

there are about 4 people on here who think that Contracts are Law and the last word.

In the past these contracts have been successfully challenged.

I have said over and over you have to have something stolen to be theft, the only thing that is being recorded as used is data, and in that nothing is being stolen, its not proven that AT&t is even keeping records of anything but data used. Theories are abound but no proof of anything.

So repeating that people will be affected over and over is not proven yet, if it happens I'm sure it will be news.

Tethering is not an option when you have unlimited

for some reason these 4 people ignore that there may be another position and keep posting over and over the same thing

and I think its on the brink of offensive now.

Unless there is something new to say........... no reason to keep posting the same thing.

marksman
Mar 24, 2011, 09:29 PM
Read my new post, ;)




This makes no logical sense, Unlimited Data and using more Data then you paid for?..................... Again this logic is based on emotions not facts.

Fact Unlimited
Fact cannot overuse Unlimited

I suspect I have been running businesses and selling usage based services before you were alive. I also suspect you have no actual experience with this from the standpoint of running any kind of business. So forgive me when I take my word and understanding of how providing usage based services to customer bases actually work.


And I read your statement about Data usage, you contend that all Unlimited plan users are using too much data when they go over 2gb?
Because At&t expects the average user to use 300mb? I'm not sure we are talking about Unlimited then? What are we talking about?

AT&T sets their price for 2gigs of usage based on what the average user consumes, not on what it would cost them to provide 2 gigs of service to every customer. If they charged every costumer how much it would cost AT&T for every customer to use 2 gigs of service every month, then cost would be close to $100 a month for everyone. AT&T unlikely has to resources to have all their customers to use 2 gigs a month.

Companies oversell resources in situations like this because it allows them to offer things for a more affordable price. I recommend you take some basic statistics classes and get a feeling for how numbers work and how averages work and all the rest.

A simple example is say AT&T has two customers. Customer A uses 250 megs of data a month. Customer B uses 1.3 gigs of data every month.

Let us say AT&T's cost for supplying data is $2 per 100 megs. With 1.55 gigs used, the cost for AT&T to supply that data is $31.

AT&T reviews this and determines to cover their costs and make a profit, they need to charge each customer $25 a month. So the revenue they make from those 2 customers is $50. The money left over after paying for the cost of supplying the data is $19 a month.

Now say AT&T introduces tethering. It is unlikely anyone will start using less data when they use tetheirng. The first month of tethering, Customer A uses 250 megs of data, and Customer B uses their full 2 gigs. So now AT&T has to pay for supplying 2.25 gigs of data at $2 per 100 megs. The total cost for AT&T to supply that data is $45. That leaves AT&T with a gross net of only $5 to pay for all their other expenses and make a profit. They end up losing money.

At this point AT&T has a couple of options. They could raise the price for everyone. Say raise the monthly fee for 2 gigs of data to $35 a month. This would leave them with a $18 gross net per month, which is pretty much what they had before tethering. The problem with that is customer A is not tethering, not using any more data yet is paying more per month, just because of Customer B.

The other option is they can charge Customer B $20 for tethering. Now AT&T has $70 of revenue with $45 of expenses and they are back in the ballpark of covering all their expenses and making money. This is the route AT&T has chosen to take, and most people think it is the right route. The only people who disagree are those who want others to pay for their data.

Now take the example that AT&T would charge a price to cover the ability for every customer to use 2 gigs a month. That is 4 gigs total usage, at $2 per 100 megs, that would be $80 in expenses. Allowing them to keep their same amount of gross revenue, that would mean they would need to charge about $50 a month per user.

This is how an average usage based business works. This is how they price their services, this is how they make money. You, for some reason, think AT&T should make much less money or lose money or someone else should pay more to subsidize your usage. AT&T and everyone else disagrees with you.




Fact arguing is useless when its emotional...............


Certainly nothing emotional about me in this discussion. I have presented the facts, I have actual real world experience and understanding of the issues. You seem to be upset that you won't be able to continue stealing tethering from AT&T. If anyone is emotional here it is certainly you.



As far as calculating what you make and what your customers use has nothing with providing a service and what in reality people use. If you run a service business they may or may not use it.

Again you have to learn about statistics and human behavior. It is all very predictable. The more customers you have the more predictable it becomes. What any single user does in a given month is 100% irrelevant to how AT&T sets their pricing.


If you sell plans to at $100 a pop on computers that would fix them for free or replace them knowing that over 90% will not use the plan in the end based on years past, then 6 months from that figure rose to 70% using the plan to fix and or replace, its not the customers fault you have provided the plan. that is comparable to people using unlimited, if At&t wants people to stop using 50gb a month, then At&t must discontinue the plan. Its At&t's fault not theirs.

AT&T's plan for unlimited data NEVER allowed for tethering. You seem to think it did but it did not. The reason why they never did anything about it before was they had no way to offer additional usage for people who needed more, and felt it would be hard to force people who needed more data into a corner where they couldn't get it even if they wanted to pay for it.

Now they have taken care of their legitimate customers who want to pay for their tethering, they can go after the criminals.


I Hurt no one by tethering it can't be proven because no one has proven it.

AT&T's cellular data resources are finite. They also cost money to use. When you use them for tethering without paying for it, you are causing the costs for AT&T to go up. So you are stealing money from them. That directly hurts them and their shareholders. On top of that it ultimately causes prices to go up for other customers to make up for your stealing.

Your illegal tethering actually negatively impacts millions of other people.


At&t want to collect more money and more fees thats all it is.

And you want to steal something, that is all it is.


I feel there are some At&t employees posting on here these days.

I feel there are some criminals posting on here these days.

Thedeathbear
Mar 24, 2011, 09:49 PM
When did people the do unauthorized tethering become criminals? When do people get put in jail for breaching the cellphone contract? All the company can do is really amend or cancel your service. Where did this criminal thing come from?

marksman
Mar 24, 2011, 10:11 PM
When did people the do unauthorized tethering become criminals? When do people get put in jail for breaching the cellphone contract? All the company can do is really amend or cancel your service. Where did this criminal thing come from?

It is theft of service. It is a crime.

Thedeathbear
Mar 24, 2011, 10:21 PM
It is theft of service. It is a crime.

Come and arrest me then

iApples
Mar 24, 2011, 10:56 PM
Come and arrest me then

You say this now... but when your plans gets terminated because of your unauthorized tethering, you will be out of luck...

blueroom
Mar 24, 2011, 10:58 PM
Like this poor fellow on another forum.
I jailbreaked my phone , but the method of jailbreak (MyWi hotspot) goes against AT&Tís Terms of Service rules, so my service got terminated.. both data and voice! plz help...

Thedeathbear
Mar 24, 2011, 10:58 PM
You say this now... but when your plans gets terminated because of your unauthorized tethering, you will be out of luck...

Well I'm not using 10GB a month. So far, I'm in the clear.

COSWORTH
Mar 24, 2011, 11:36 PM
I have decided to "watch" netflix movies on my phone 24-7, just to get my moneys worth out of my data charges.

Thedeathbear
Mar 24, 2011, 11:39 PM
I have decided to "watch" netflix movies on my phone 24-7, just to get my moneys worth out of my data charges.

You the man

Rodimus Prime
Mar 24, 2011, 11:42 PM
I have decided to "watch" netflix movies on my phone 24-7, just to get my moneys worth out of my data charges.

which is an example of why I feel AT&T needs to change how they treat the unlimited plane to match how T-Mobile does it.
After lets say 4-5gigs of data kill their speed down to Edge or GPRS speeds.
Still unlimited just they are killings you speeds.
You can not complain because they did not change your contract. You threaten to leave they will say do not let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

5 gigs is about a break even point.

Red Defiant
Mar 25, 2011, 04:44 AM
I get it, technically its wrong, and illeagal for people to do this, but at&t nickels and dimes it customers pretty bad. They really shouldn't charge you for tethering it should just come out of your data plan. I pay X amount of dollars every month for X amount of 3G data. What medium I choose to view use it on should be irrelevent. The gas station doesn't charge you more for 87 octane just because you're using in a motorcycle vise a car, how dumb would that be!

CubusX
Mar 25, 2011, 06:37 AM
AT&T needs to change the unlimted data plans to capped plans and end all of this now. Then you can comence your whinning

If you want more regulation get Apple involoved. If you try to sync a Jailbroken phone with iTunes it will refuse to sync the data or force an upgrade in order for you to continue. Killing the jailbreak...

That will surely fix the system...

err404
Mar 25, 2011, 09:17 AM
Tethering is not an option when you have unlimited
For the record, despite the common perception, tethering is not an 'option' for ANY data plan. 2GB data do not have the option to 'add' tethering.
In order to gain official tethering service you must replace your existing plan with the 4GB one that includes tethering.

This may seem minor, but this makes a significant difference in how the contract is structured since tethering is not a separate line item.

manman
Mar 25, 2011, 12:53 PM
AT&T needs to change the unlimted data plans to capped plans and end all of this now. Then you can comence your whinning

If you want more regulation get Apple involoved. If you try to sync a Jailbroken phone with iTunes it will refuse to sync the data or force an upgrade in order for you to continue. Killing the jailbreak...

That will surely fix the system...

Except that jailbroken phones (actually even factory iphones) don't need iTunes to get content on them. There are plenty of alternatives. If apple thought it was worth it to try and catch jb phones through iTunes they would have done it long ago...

err404
Mar 25, 2011, 01:28 PM
If you want more regulation get Apple involoved. If you try to sync a Jailbroken phone with iTunes it will refuse to sync the data or force an upgrade in order for you to continue. Killing the jailbreak...
iTunes has never forced an upgrade to my JB iPhones. In fact they play surprisingly well together.

KidStallyn
Mar 25, 2011, 03:13 PM
Since this started happening....I've started to listen to SiriusXM through their app and stream music all day long.....whether I'm listening to it or not. My goal is to use as much data as possible........with ZERO tethering I have the following usages:

Oct: 7.1 GB
Nov: 7.2 GB
Dec: 3.8 GB
Jan: 5.4 GB
Feb: 7.6 GB
Mar: 5 GB

At least that's what ATT has listed on the website....

Mr. Chewbacca
Mar 25, 2011, 03:32 PM
The only people who disagree are those who want others to pay for their data..

25 pages of posts summed up in a single sentence

Since this started happening....I've started to listen to SiriusXM through their app and stream music all day long.....whether I'm listening to it or not. My goal is to use as much data as possible........with ZERO tethering I have the following usages:

Oct: 7.1 GB
Nov: 7.2 GB
Dec: 3.8 GB
Jan: 5.4 GB
Feb: 7.6 GB
Mar: 5 GB

At least that's what ATT has listed on the website....

You've been over taxing the network we all use out of spite for months? Seriously? How old are you?

KidStallyn
Mar 25, 2011, 03:37 PM
You've been over taxing the network we all use out of spite for months? Seriously? How old are you?

Almost 40......and I got ZERO problem with it. Make a freakin network that can handle "Unlimited" data. I'm an engineer.....It's not Rocket Science.

Mr. Chewbacca
Mar 25, 2011, 04:00 PM
Almost 40......and I got ZERO problem with it. Make a freakin network that can handle "Unlimited" data. I'm an engineer.....It's not Rocket Science.

You think they can make a profitable network that can handle the kinda data you use for 30.00 a month? Serious question, you're the engineer.

If your actually using the data, say pandora while your training, than thats one thing but wasting data? Overuse is the reason they are having to crack down in the first palce, or atleast one of them. I have MiWi but adv about 1.5gb a month.

PS, my GF and I did P90X, I lost 40lbs (I'm 6'8" 300) that is a brutal program but it amazes me what I can lift now and her 6 pack... nice :D :D .

Were doing it again this summer.

KidStallyn
Mar 25, 2011, 04:11 PM
You think they can make a profitable network that can handle the kinda data you use for 30.00 a month? Serious question, you're the engineer.

If your actually using the data, say pandora while your training, than thats one thing but wasting data? Overuse is the reason they are having to crack down in the first palce, or atleast one of them. I have MiWi but adv about 1.5gb a month.

PS, my GF and I did P90X, I lost 40lbs (I'm 6'8" 300) that is a brutal program but it amazes me what I can lift now and her 6 pack... nice.

Were doing it again this summer.

I don't consider it "wasting". I'm listening to the music. Just since this whole scandal came about in the last week or so, when I'd go on a telecon I used to turn it off.....Now I just let it run and turn the volume down. Those usage numbers are before the crackdowns. I don't tether at all....That's purely music and video streaming via approved apps in the app store.

As for the question of could I design a network that could handle the traffic. I really think I could with my RF and real time embedded systems background. But that's not where I work, so it's not my worry. I'm just annoyed that ATT gives us unlimited data yet says there's limitations on "how" that data is used.

PS. Great job on P90X. 6'8" is ginormous to me at 5'11". I absolutely love the workouts, and really look forward to pushing myself further each and every workout. On top of that, I'm a runner and log about 30-40 miles a week. Lots of music from SiriusXM there too, although on track workouts.....No music allowed. I'm a P90X BeachBody coach. If you ever want tailored workouts let me know.

robanga
Mar 25, 2011, 04:17 PM
Maybe the " real market price " of unlimited access to the internet on many devices:

TV
Multiple laptops and computers on a network at home
Xbox's and PS3's
iPhones
iPads

Should be something like $120-$200 per month. ( Oh wait...thats what I pay). At least all the providers should compete for that business on that basis.

Don't steal data, don't steal movies etc.

Mr. Chewbacca
Mar 25, 2011, 04:25 PM
More to the point do you think it is fair for us to expect ATT to be able to let everyone use 8-10gb a month for 30.00 on the network they have? If the traffic gets to high they are going to have to take steps to reduce the traffic in addition to beefing up the network.

I liked the workouts a lot. We got lucky and found a gym within walking distance with an upstairs area that couldnt be better for p90x. I didnt like cooking so much.

Thats a lot of running! One problem with being a big guy is no matter how good or bad of shape youre in your knees still suck :o O'well

Thanks for the workout offer!

KidStallyn
Mar 25, 2011, 04:44 PM
More to the point do you think it is fair for us to expect ATT to be able to let everyone use 8-10gb a month for 30.00 on the network they have? If the traffic gets to high they are going to have to take steps to reduce the traffic in addition to beefing up the network.

I liked the workouts a lot. We got lucky and found a gym within walking distance with an upstairs area that couldnt be better for p90x. I didnt like cooking so much.

Thats a lot of running! One problem with being a big guy is no matter how good or bad of shape youre in your knees still suck :o O'well

Thanks for the workout offer!


$30/month per device is totally fair IMHO. Look at it this way. How many millions of phones has just the iPhone sold that's on the network. Let's just say theirs 30 million iPhones activated. That's $900 million per month of revenue. Now, putting hardware and software in place is a one time fee for development, acquisition, and installation. Sure it's going to be in the billions when you consider doing it nationwide, but those are fixed costs. ATT is making almost $1 billion per month, on just the iPhone alone. That should be more then enough to put up a network that can handle unlimited data for a smartphone with today's technologies.

robanga
Mar 25, 2011, 04:53 PM
$30/month per device is totally fair IMHO. Look at it this way. How many millions of phones has just the iPhone sold that's on the network. Let's just say theirs 30 million iPhones activated. That's $900 million per month of revenue. Now, putting hardware and software in place is a one time fee for development, acquisition, and installation. Sure it's going to be in the billions when you consider doing it nationwide, but those are fixed costs. ATT is making almost $1 billion per month, on just the iPhone alone. That should be more then enough to put up a network that can handle unlimited data for a smartphone with today's technologies.

Is that iPhone revenue or profit on the $1B per month month?

Also we really have no idea what a network that "handles maximum usage most of the time" actually costs. So what they can afford and still return a reasonable EPS for investors is a bit more of an open question.

Our roads are mainly free from a usage standpoint, but they would crumble if everyone decided to use them at once and at maximum frequency.

mdlooker
Mar 25, 2011, 06:40 PM
ATT can't seem to find my original contract that I signed. It's not online in my profile as I changed my calling plan about a month ago so that contract summary is the only thing there. The guy spent a good 10 min in total trying to find previous contracts but couldn't do it.

Sooo if that's the case, where is my original contract that I signed that said I agree not to teather? I mean I don't care about it enough to fight the system at this point but where is my original contract? All it says online is when my current contract ends but no other original information. Do they keep paper records for a year or more?

rkahl
Mar 25, 2011, 06:46 PM
ATT can't seem to find my original contract that I signed. It's not online in my profile as I changed my calling plan about a month ago so that contract summary is the only thing there. The guy spent a good 10 min in total trying to find previous contracts but couldn't do it.

Sooo if that's the case, where is my original contract that I signed that said I agree not to teather? I mean I don't care about it enough to fight the system at this point but where is my original contract? All it says online is when my current contract ends but no other original information. Do they keep paper records for a year or more?

So far you have dealt with rep's making $12/hr. They will find your contract.

marksman
Mar 25, 2011, 07:55 PM
ATT can't seem to find my original contract that I signed. It's not online in my profile as I changed my calling plan about a month ago so that contract summary is the only thing there. The guy spent a good 10 min in total trying to find previous contracts but couldn't do it.

Sooo if that's the case, where is my original contract that I signed that said I agree not to teather? I mean I don't care about it enough to fight the system at this point but where is my original contract? All it says online is when my current contract ends but no other original information. Do they keep paper records for a year or more?

When they started selling 3Gs they had digital contract signatures, at least I know I did at the AT&T store when I bought it on launch day.

MrGIS
Mar 25, 2011, 08:47 PM
Something tells me someone else likely posted this news, but just in case... In Canada, Rogers and likely Bell/Telus are letting us use tethering for "free" which is the way it should be.. Data is data... Users should decide how they use the bandwidth they already pay for. Granted our data plans max out at 6 GB, but I'm still thinking you Americans need to hold a north Africa style revolt....

Mr. Chewbacca
Mar 25, 2011, 11:12 PM
ATT can't seem to find my original contract that I signed. It's not online in my profile as I changed my calling plan about a month ago so that contract summary is the only thing there. The guy spent a good 10 min in total trying to find previous contracts but couldn't do it.

Sooo if that's the case, where is my original contract that I signed that said I agree not to teather? I mean I don't care about it enough to fight the system at this point but where is my original contract? All it says online is when my current contract ends but no other original information. Do they keep paper records for a year or more?

I guess one of two things

1) since all contract tos agreements in your area signed at that time are exactly the same and none at any time in any state had unlimited teathering, you would be still bound by that contract or at best able to cancel with grounds to fight the ETF

2) if your contract is lost you get to make one up, and if your bill is lost in the mail you don't have to pay :rolleyes:

Sorry, but I'm guessing door number 1

MikePA
Mar 26, 2011, 03:46 AM
ATT can't seem to find my original contract that I signed.

You're right. A few years ago every ATT cellular customer had a contract that was unique, so it's vitally important each of us find the one we signed. As changes to the contract and Terms Of Service came out they were also unique, so we need to find them as well.

kindaobsessed
Mar 26, 2011, 04:12 AM
I find it so funny that people think they should be able to tell ATT how to run their business .... It is a Business not a "hey here let me give you a service for a mobile device, but even though it is mobile you can use all of our resources, take away services from others because you said so"

My suggestion is if you don't agree with it get another provider that will allow you to tell them how to run their business.

Really? This sense of entitlement is outrageous.

It is a IPhone data plan - not an a ANY DEVICE data plan.

I don't want to pay Sales Tax because I already pay taxes -- Oh wait I am only paying income tax not Sales Tax -- WTH??

michaelsviews
Mar 26, 2011, 04:58 AM
Option 3; STOP trying to cheat the system, and START using your iDevice the way the manufacturer designed it and the way your carrier supports it. (Is it unfair? YES! Are all of us iPhone users getting hosed, even though there's now two carriers? YES)

And while you're at it, knock off the piracy with the napster/limewire/torrent crap.

(Yeah, I said it! SOMEBODY had to!)

Very well said. IMHO though AT&T's network is horrible & there looking for anything and everything to use as an excuse of why there data speeds are lacking at times

Doc750
Mar 26, 2011, 05:50 AM
you people just don't learn ...

time to hit up some torrent sites today on the laptop. I'm just going to let this baby run all day.

musicmax
Mar 26, 2011, 03:31 PM
ATT can't seem to find my original contract that I signed.

Taking a cue from the ba$tard mortgage bankers.

MikePA
Mar 26, 2011, 03:33 PM
Taking a cue from the ba$tard mortgage bankers.

Taking a cue from the ba$tard home buyers who bought more house than they could afford.

George Knighton
Mar 27, 2011, 07:59 AM
I seem to have come out slightly ahead with the tethering changes.

Now that I can officially tether with AT&T, although it's true I am paying $45/month for 4GB, the easy availability of tethering has allowed me to drop my $29.99/month 3G data plan for the iPad.

The recent AT&T change that allows free voice calls to all mobiles has also allowed me to lower my voice plan for a family of iPhones.

So...I've actually come out slightly ahead, monetarily.

rkahl
Mar 27, 2011, 08:41 AM
I seem to have come out slightly ahead with the tethering changes.

Now that I can officially tether with AT&T, although it's true I am paying $45/month for 4GB, the easy availability of tethering has allowed me to drop my $29.99/month 3G data plan for the iPad.

The recent AT&T change that allows free voice calls to all mobiles has also allowed me to lower my voice plan for a family of iPhones.

So...I've actually come out slightly ahead, monetarily.

If you are referring to the unlimited data plan for iPad ($29.99/month), you should have sold that sim on eBay. People are getting $400 and you just gave it away!

George Knighton
Mar 27, 2011, 10:15 AM
If you are referring to the unlimited data plan for iPad ($29.99/month), you should have sold that sim on eBay. People are getting $400 and you just gave it away!
I'm not sure I should take advantage of somebody else's silliness. :-)

CubusX
Mar 27, 2011, 12:27 PM
there are about 4 people on here who think that Contracts are Law and the last word.

It's called contract law...

nateo200
Mar 27, 2011, 01:35 PM
Well I'm not using 10GB a month. So far, I'm in the clear.
Exactly. Like I said I tether to do quick things on my macbook pro when no wifi is available. I'm a student I have no time nor money to pay 15$ for a software feature that carriers stole, took advantage of and claimed there own. To me its about as dirty as getting with the drunk girl and saying "Well she said she wanted to..". And yes I have worked before for 2 years but I am a full time student studying pre-med starting next year and bagging grocerys when I should be studying biochem and organic chem is not the smart choice.
Come and arrest me then
I J-walk too. I should arrest my self.

I have decided to "watch" netflix movies on my phone 24-7, just to get my moneys worth out of my data charges.
Can't say I would do that or think its ethical but that sure is a good way of "sticking it to the man".

Howdr
Mar 27, 2011, 03:00 PM
It's called contract law...

Lol only once ruled by a court,
You won't win and I won't win this one till it's decided.......

I can't believe the righteousness on this thread, At&t charged me 2 years for 3G Internet, they had automatically switched me from edge because my phone was 3G yet the closest 3G was 120 miles away in any direction, At&t had no 3G in my town and knew it. What At&t does is not always right. As a consumer I have a right to fight it.

As I said 4 main people who have spent everyday posting how 300,000 people are wrong......(at&ts own numbers ) Wow

Wonder what will happen when At&t has about 1/3 of America ( 100 million) as customers? T mobile has unlimited Internet for $10 a month :o

Rodimus Prime
Mar 27, 2011, 04:20 PM
Lol only once ruled by a court,
You won't win and I won't win this one till it's decided.......

I can't believe the righteousness on this thread, At&t charged me 2 years for 3G Internet, they had automatically switched me from edge because my phone was 3G yet the closest 3G was 120 miles away in any direction, At&t had no 3G in my town and knew it. What At&t does is not always right. As a consumer I have a right to fight it.

As I said 4 main people who have spent everyday posting how 300,000 people are wrong......(at&ts own numbers ) Wow

Wonder what will happen when At&t has about 1/3 of America ( 100 million) as customers? T mobile has unlimited Internet for $10 a month :o

and you yet again are showing how little you understand.
AT&T is charging you smart phone data prices. Not 3G data prices. The first iPhone should of been called a smart phone but it was put under the category of feature phone (aka dumb phone).
Howdr you have been shown time and time again you have no understanding of how this works and are a give me give me give me person.
We tried to explain how easy it is for AT&T to figure out if someone is teathering. Just you say no one on other forums has proof.... Problem you and most of of those other people you keep pointing to have no understanding of how the internet works.
All AT&T has to do is look at how many hops it takes to get to the tower.

If it is more than 1 then boom you are teathing no if and or buts about it. Another option is look at what type of data that is being sent. Bit torrent data is an easy thing to nail and I know multiple people who run large enterprise grade networks. They have no problem picking out bit torrent data (including the encrypted stuff) and blocking it. It is not hard to track and figure it out. It all has some very easy tell tell signs.

So you have hops AT&T can look for, or look at the the type of data being sent. Both of which is easy to know certain types data are easy to figure out.

pdjudd
Mar 27, 2011, 07:39 PM
Rhodius:
I would give up, Hwodr is basing his entire premise on the fact that AT&Tís contract with his is invalid, unenforceable and therefore he should be able to do whatever he wants with the service that he pays for. He does this despite the fact that his contract does not allow what he wants to do.

However, he cannot explain why he bothered to sign to sign a contract that he had no intention of following whatsoever. The hubris reminds me of Psystar who tried a similar tactic - trying to make an argument that the EULA did not apply to them. People here made the same arguments regarding contracts and they swore that Appleís EULA would make hackintoshing a legitimate business. They were wrong. You cannot go and sign a contract without holding up the ends and then violate it. Itís wrong. You only void the contract to get out of it totally, not to change the terms ex post facto.

What many of them forget is that the terms of the contract have to be considered valid up front. If you have any disagreement with them, you should not sign it. Why Howdr did not do this (or even consult a lawyer) is beyond me (and you I am guessing).

Nobody has been able to show any legal citing that can overturn the contract on a whole. And even if the contract is voided, all that means is that the service obigation ends - Howdr is no longer going to have any service period so tethering becomes moot.

Either way, he is going to loose. Either AT&Tís contract is going to be upheld (and the odds are that is what is going to happen - AT&T isnít dumb) or he gets disconnected since he no longer has a service agreement.

HeyItsRaymond
Mar 27, 2011, 10:11 PM
We may change any terms, conditions, rates, fees, expenses, or charges regarding your Services at any time. We will provide you with notice of material changes (other than changes to governmental fees, proportional charges for governmental mandates, roaming rates or administrative charges) either in your monthly bill or separately. You understand and agree that State and Federal Universal Service Fees and other governmentally imposed fees, whether or not assessed directly upon you, may be increased based upon the government's or our calculations.

IF WE INCREASE THE PRICE OF ANY OF THE SERVICES TO WHICH YOU SUBSCRIBE, BEYOND THE LIMITS SET FORTH IN YOUR CUSTOMER SERVICE SUMMARY, OR IF WE MATERIALLY DECREASE THE GEOGRAPHICAL AREA IN WHICH YOUR AIRTIME RATE APPLIES (OTHER THAN A TEMPORARY DECREASE FOR REPAIRS OR MAINTENANCE), WE'LL DISCLOSE THE CHANGE AT LEAST ONE BILLING CYCLE IN ADVANCE (EITHER THROUGH A NOTICE WITH YOUR BILL, A TEXT MESSAGE TO YOUR DEVICE, OR OTHERWISE), AND YOU MAY TERMINATE THIS AGREEMENT WITHOUT PAYING AN EARLY TERMINATION FEE OR RETURNING OR PAYING FOR ANY PROMOTIONAL ITEMS, PROVIDED YOUR NOTICE OF TERMINATION IS DELIVERED TO US WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER THE FIRST BILL REFLECTING THE CHANGE.

If you lose your eligibility for a particular rate plan, we may change your rate plan to one for which you qualify.

So basically, if they change the terms for any reason then you have the option of ending your contract with no penalty. If they do change anyone's plan then just end the contract, sell the phone on Craigslist for more than it will cost to buy a Verizon iPhone and tell AT&T (aka A Fee & Fee) to ***** OFF

HeyItsRaymond
Mar 27, 2011, 10:12 PM
I have Verizon now and despise AT&T (aka A Fee & Fee) due to a horrible customer service experience that is now on my credit report.

Anyone that has an iPhone (regardless of whether you are tethering or not) and Netflix should set-up the phone to stream random movies for hours on end when they are not using it. Each hour of Netflix streaming uses about 500MB to 1GB of data. Let them try to prove everyone that is using tethering just because they are using large amounts of data.

Cleopatra (1963) is 4:03:17 long. Just restart it endlessly. That will use about 2GB-5GB a day or around 100GB a month if you do it for at least 20 days a month.

You're paying for Unlimited Data so USE IT.

carlos33018
Mar 28, 2011, 01:47 AM
Let's try explaining it this way...

When you subscribe to cable, you pick a package that provides you with the channels that you want. There are various packages, but ultimately it's all just video streaming over a cable (bits in this day and age, not analog)...

Based on yours and others arguements, why can't we all just pay for basic cable and get all 500+ channels plus the premium channels for free? Very simply, you're paying for a package with specific features....

With your cellular service, you chose a package that meets your needs. You have 3 options for data plans at this point, well, 4 technically...

1) Your grandfathered unlimited plan

2) 250mb

3) Data Pro 2GB

4) Data Pro 2GB + Tethering 2GB for a total of 4GB....

Tethering is not the same as using the data on your device, essentially tethering is using your phone as a modem. You data plan (which I'm assuming is either unlimited or 250mb) does not include the feature of using your phone as a modem, that's what the extra charge is for....

If you want to tether, you need to pay for the appropriate package. Just like if you want HBO, Showtime, or HDTV you need to pay for the appropriate cable package...
This guy has to be working for AT&T , Seriously ??!!?? U BOUGHT THE DATA YOU SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO USE IT AS YOU PLEASE, STOP TROLLING.

rkahl
Mar 28, 2011, 06:04 AM
I have Verizon now and despise AT&T (aka A Fee & Fee) due to a horrible customer service experience that is now on my credit report.

Anyone that has an iPhone (regardless of whether you are tethering or not) and Netflix should set-up the phone to stream random movies for hours on end when they are not using it. Each hour of Netflix streaming uses about 500MB to 1GB of data. Let them try to prove everyone that is using tethering just because they are using large amounts of data.

Cleopatra (1963) is 4:03:17 long. Just restart it endlessly. That will use about 2GB-5GB a day or around 100GB a month if you do it for at least 20 days a month.

You're paying for Unlimited Data so USE IT.


What a GREAT PLAN! It's very shocking to hear that you have a tarnished Credit Report.:rolleyes:

HeyItsRaymond
Mar 28, 2011, 06:52 AM
What a GREAT PLAN! It's very shocking to hear that you have a tarnished Credit Report.:rolleyes:

Actually, that is the only thing negative that is or ever has been on my credit report. I'm in the process of having it removed so it doesn't really matter anyway.

Unlike most Americans, I paid cash for my condo and my car.

I also have no credit card debt.

All at age 29.

I also don't believe in letting corporations get away with whatever they please. If we had more discipline as a country and could organize mass demonstrations then corporations could not nickel and dime us to death (or debt)

Imagine if we said "No more BS banking and ATM fees." and if they didn't end them that we were going to withdrawal our money. The banks don't care because we never would do that, we are too lazy. But if we all showed up at Bank of America or Chase and closed our accounts on a certain Monday and let them know why we did it I bet they'd listen then.

Or if we all booked fully refundable tickets and then cancelled them at the last moment and let the Airlines know that it was because of the baggage fees.

Or if we all paid the ETF for AT&T all at once and let them know why. They'd beg us to come back and start treating us like people and not ATM's

yg17
Mar 28, 2011, 08:12 AM
$30/month per device is totally fair IMHO. Look at it this way. How many millions of phones has just the iPhone sold that's on the network. Let's just say theirs 30 million iPhones activated. That's $900 million per month of revenue. Now, putting hardware and software in place is a one time fee for development, acquisition, and installation. Sure it's going to be in the billions when you consider doing it nationwide, but those are fixed costs. ATT is making almost $1 billion per month, on just the iPhone alone. That should be more then enough to put up a network that can handle unlimited data for a smartphone with today's technologies.

If you were the engineer you claim to be, you would know that hardware isn't even half the problem. Wireless spectrum is a limited, finite resource. The same people who bitch about bad cell service will bitch when a carrier wants to put a big, ugly tower in view of their house. This isn't a problem you can just keep throwing money at to resolve.

err404
Mar 28, 2011, 09:37 AM
If you were the engineer you claim to be, you would know that hardware isn't even half the problem. Wireless spectrum is a limited, finite resource. The same people who bitch about bad cell service will bitch when a carrier wants to put a big, ugly tower in view of their house. This isn't a problem you can just keep throwing money at to resolve.

Spectrum is the key to this whole discussion. I understand the frustration some people have with AT&T and there are some very valid points being made. But to the specific point of 3G spectrum it's an issue of constant supply vs increasing demand. Regardless of the business ethics of AT&T, they need to keep the demand for data below the supply. This is proving to be very difficult as more people switch to smartphones every day and the apps become more data hungry. Even the coming 4G infrastructure with its 10x bandwidth per tower will become saturated pretty quickly if no checks are in place to deter usage. Currently ATT is going the route of increased usage fees for data, while VZ is going the route of lowering throughput to high volume users. Choose which solution suits you best.

jamesryanbell
Mar 28, 2011, 12:07 PM
I don't want to ever think about there simply "not being enough bandwidth". That's just got to be there.
:cool::D

Mr. Chewbacca
Mar 28, 2011, 12:45 PM
This guy has to be working for AT&T , Seriously ??!!?? U BOUGHT THE DATA YOU SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO USE IT AS YOU PLEASE, STOP TROLLING.

This made me LOL. Tell you what, call ATT and let them know that you're tethering and they cant do anything about it if you're so sure that you get to dictate the terms of a contract after you signed it.:rolleyes:

Be sure to mention if you have unlimited data and have every right to use 100gb a month HOWEVER YOU CHOSE! you can even give them away.. OOPS I just dropped a gb, o'well. :eek:

alent1234
Mar 28, 2011, 02:04 PM
$30/month per device is totally fair IMHO. Look at it this way. How many millions of phones has just the iPhone sold that's on the network. Let's just say theirs 30 million iPhones activated. That's $900 million per month of revenue. Now, putting hardware and software in place is a one time fee for development, acquisition, and installation. Sure it's going to be in the billions when you consider doing it nationwide, but those are fixed costs. ATT is making almost $1 billion per month, on just the iPhone alone. That should be more then enough to put up a network that can handle unlimited data for a smartphone with today's technologies.


there are also operating costs

support, electricity, rent, bandwidth, interest on the debt to buy the equipment and the spectrum, pay apple for the iphones, etc. AT&T makes very little net profit on their revenue.

ClutchThese
Mar 28, 2011, 03:11 PM
there are also operating costs

support, electricity, rent, bandwidth, interest on the debt to buy the equipment and the spectrum, pay apple for the iphones, etc. AT&T makes very little net profit on their revenue.

not sure what your source of info is on the above...


AT&T ended the quarter with $4.02 billion in net income, up 25.8% vs. the same time last year, on revenues of $30.81 billion, up 0.6%.


looks to me like they made a pretty penny!

jesusplay
Mar 28, 2011, 04:04 PM
70GBs so far this cycle......180gb last cycle and 20gb the cycle before and 5 gb the cycle before that cycle....

no notice, no call, nothing.

thecapo
Mar 28, 2011, 04:16 PM
70GBs so far this cycle......180gb last cycle and 20gb the cycle before and 5 gb the cycle before that cycle....

no notice, no call, nothing.

I have the grandfathered unlimited plan and while i average 6 or so gb's per month, i one time used 76 while downloading blu ray movies over tethering while I was on vacation. The family i was staying with didn't even have internet!:confused:
Hopefully they wont call or text and if they do- i switch to sprint and get an evo! (or threaten them saying i will do so)

It is HORRIBLE business ethics for att to do this to customers paying for an UNLIMITED plan. It's just plain lying.

pdjudd
Mar 28, 2011, 04:19 PM
It is HORRIBLE business ethics for att to do this to customers paying for an UNLIMITED plan. It's just plain lying.
Then why did you violate the contract that says that you may not tether your phone?

wpotere
Mar 28, 2011, 04:24 PM
I have the grandfathered unlimited plan and while i average 6 or so gb's per month, i one time used 76 while downloading blu ray movies over tethering while I was on vacation. The family i was staying with didn't even have internet!:confused:
Hopefully they wont call or text and if they do- i switch to sprint and get an evo! (or threaten them saying i will do so)

It is HORRIBLE business ethics for att to do this to customers paying for an UNLIMITED plan. It's just plain lying.

LOL, I am pretty sure that AT&T didn't have you downloading illegal movies in mind when they offered unlimited data.

It is horrible customer ethics to take advantage of a system. :rolleyes:

thecapo
Mar 28, 2011, 04:31 PM
Actually, that is the only thing negative that is or ever has been on my credit report. I'm in the process of having it removed so it doesn't really matter anyway.

Unlike most Americans, I paid cash for my condo and my car.

I also have no credit card debt.

All at age 29.

I also don't believe in letting corporations get away with whatever they please. If we had more discipline as a country and could organize mass demonstrations then corporations could not nickel and dime us to death (or debt)

Imagine if we said "No more BS banking and ATM fees." and if they didn't end them that we were going to withdrawal our money. The banks don't care because we never would do that, we are too lazy. But if we all showed up at Bank of America or Chase and closed our accounts on a certain Monday and let them know why we did it I bet they'd listen then.

Or if we all booked fully refundable tickets and then cancelled them at the last moment and let the Airlines know that it was because of the baggage fees.

Or if we all paid the ETF for AT&T all at once and let them know why. They'd beg us to come back and start treating us like people and not ATM's

If you ever do any of those things, count me in!
I mean really, WE are those companies source of income and we shouldn't have to out up with their crap if we don't like it.
ATT gave me a free iphone 4 because they consistently messed up my bill and charged sometimes 40-50 dollars extra. Retards
I threatened to leave and then they kissed a$$ and gave me the iphone

thecapo
Mar 28, 2011, 04:33 PM
LOL, I am pretty sure that AT&T didn't have you downloading illegal movies in mind when they offered unlimited data.

It is horrible customer ethics to take advantage of a system. :rolleyes:

Actually they were legal:D
I payed for them just like my unlimited plan

thecapo
Mar 28, 2011, 04:35 PM
Then why did you violate the contract that says that you may not tether your phone?

Dont want to lose my unlimited data plan for a wimpy 4gb

wpotere
Mar 28, 2011, 04:36 PM
Actually they were legal:D
I payed for them just like my unlimited plan

Really? Care to share the link? I have never seen a downloadable BluRay Movie.

thecapo
Mar 28, 2011, 04:44 PM
Really? Care to share the link? I have never seen a downloadable BluRay Movie.

buy a blu ray movie and get the code inside for direct legal download
also did some streaming of non BR but high quality off my amazon prime acct
I thought macs could play BR but they could not so i left it over night to download over 3g. slow but it worked

panzer06
Mar 28, 2011, 04:58 PM
stop gouging the customer. first we pay for 'unlimited' data thats capped at 5gb then they limit it to 2gb and force you to pay more to tether.

Just imagine how we T-Mobile customers feel with the prospect of having to deal with paying twice as much and poor AT&T customer support. T-Mobile may not have the best indoor coverage but they are a lot cheaper and people don't have to jailbreak their Android phones to get WiFi tethering. So far they trust the customers to self report. I'm sure all that will go out the window if AT&T is approved to buy them.

That and our discounted monthly service if you buy your own phone. :mad: AT&T and Verizon offer no monthly discount for buying unsubsidized equipment.

Cheers,

pdjudd
Mar 28, 2011, 05:28 PM
Dont want to lose my unlimited data plan for a wimpy 4gb

My question was rhetorical. You violated the contract. If ATT&T does anything to your plan, you cannot blame them. Itís your fault.

If you wanted to legally tether, you should never have signed a contract saying that you wonít do it. I donít care about the scenario you were in, you violated your contract. Blaming anybody but yourself is just plain laughable.

alandail
Mar 28, 2011, 08:43 PM
it never ceases to amaze me the number of people who think it's okay to steal services and that it's wrong for the company being stolen from to take measures to stop them.

You sign up for a cell phone plan and you sign up for access from your phone. The terms of service specifically state there is an extra charge to share that connection with other devices. Just because it's technically possible to accomplish with the right software doesn't mean you are entitled to use services you haven't paid for.

It happens with music.
It happens with software.
It happens with cell phone data.

People that would never walk into best buy and steal a CD or an application will download the same content over the internet and feel entitled to do so.

People who don't have a tethering data plan will jailbreak their phone and spend $5 on an app and brag about the money they are saving with the service they are stealing. Then will complain about dropped calls as AT&T's networks get bogged down from them and others using services they haven't paid for.

There is a huge difference between having paid for data access for a single cell phone and using that data pipe for multiple devices. You agreed to a data plan that says you paid extra for that ability. And the ability is available if you just sign up and pay for it. There simply is no more justification for stealing the service than there is for shoplifting.

Howdr
Mar 28, 2011, 09:18 PM
You agreed to a data plan that says you paid extra for that ability. And the ability is available if you just sign up and pay for it. There simply is no more justification for stealing the service than there is for shoplifting.
Thats the problem, many didn't.
AT&T did not have tethering plans before.
Also for the unlimited people they do not have the ability to add tethering.

How will they handle the Tmobile unlimited at $10 a month and all the people who tether for free on TMobile?

Unbelievable how people defend AT&T


Most Carriers offer unlimited and many free tethering.

Its hard to believe that they can offer it like this and AT&T can't.:rolleyes:

alandail
Mar 28, 2011, 09:43 PM
Thats the problem, many didn't.
AT&T did not have tethering plans before.
Also for the unlimited people they do not have the ability to add tethering.

How will they handle the Tmobile unlimited at $10 a month and all the people who tether for free on TMobile?

Unbelievable how people defend AT&T


Most Carriers offer unlimited and many free tethering.

Its hard to believe that they can offer it like this and AT&T can't.:rolleyes:

if you like the other companies plan, switch. But don't steal AT&T's service without paying for it.

And I looked it up, T-Mobie charges 15.99 for tethering on top of the $30 for web unlimited.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2371848,00.asp

How are people getting unlimited web and data on a smartphone from t-mobile for $10? The only way I can find to do it is to cheat by getting the $10 plan on a "dumb" phone, then switch to a smart phone without paying the smart phone rate and then turning on tethering without paying for that service either. Basically lying to get service you're not paying for.

And do you have the original unlimited data plan agreement to confirm it didn't' say anything one way or the other about sharing the data access with other devices? I would be surprised if it didn't at least have language that says unlimited data from your phone. Even if that's all it said, it's kind of stretching things to suggest that implied the right to share that data access with any other devices you want.

drummingcraig
Mar 29, 2011, 06:50 AM
it never ceases to amaze me the number of people who think it's okay to steal services and that it's wrong for the company being stolen from to take measures to stop them.

You sign up for a cell phone plan and you sign up for access from your phone. The terms of service specifically state there is an extra charge to share that connection with other devices. Just because it's technically possible to accomplish with the right software doesn't mean you are entitled to use services you haven't paid for.

It happens with music.
It happens with software.
It happens with cell phone data.

People that would never walk into best buy and steal a CD or an application will download the same content over the internet and feel entitled to do so.

People who don't have a tethering data plan will jailbreak their phone and spend $5 on an app and brag about the money they are saving with the service they are stealing. Then will complain about dropped calls as AT&T's networks get bogged down from them and others using services they haven't paid for.

There is a huge difference between having paid for data access for a single cell phone and using that data pipe for multiple devices. You agreed to a data plan that says you paid extra for that ability. And the ability is available if you just sign up and pay for it. There simply is no more justification for stealing the service than there is for shoplifting.

Well said.

Thats the problem, many didn't.
AT&T did not have tethering plans before.
Also for the unlimited people they do not have the ability to add tethering.

How will they handle the Tmobile unlimited at $10 a month and all the people who tether for free on TMobile?

Unbelievable how people defend AT&T


Most Carriers offer unlimited and many free tethering.

Its hard to believe that they can offer it like this and AT&T can't.:rolleyes:

But two wrongs don't make a right. This isn't about defending AT&T, but rather its about basic ethics/morals. AT&T may not be in the right with the way they are handling the tethering situation, but that *does not* make it legal for people to effectively steal 10's & 100's of GB of data usage.

I am tired of reading the "but it said unlimited" argument. It boggles my mind how people can be so quick to try to twist things into their favor. It really is just like the music stealing issue. Its easy to do anonymously, tons of folks are doing it, you probably will never get caught (or punished)...so it must be OK right? Pretty soon, so many people are doing it that the mob mentality takes effect and everyone forgets ethics 101.

The ugly fact is, there is a small group of users who are responsible for this backlash from AT&T. And its not just mobile users either. If anyone reading this is an AT&T home broadband subscriber (DSL or UVERSE) your usage just got capped to 150GB (DSL)/250GB (UVERSE) per month effective 5/2/11 because of folks who take it to the extreme. If we didn't have folks like the guy above who downloaded 100's of GB of HD movies on his 3G connection, AT&T probably would be turning the other cheek to this issue, but they have no choice now.

You have the folks who use a tethering client to check email and do some light browsing from time-to-time while traveling, and then you have idiots who think that just because they can download massive amounts of data month-to-month they do, without ever giving thought to the consequences. I am in the former group and had plans to use MyFi when traveling. I do not think that AT&T's tethering option is reasonable for light users and I am not willing to pay thru the nose for it. However, I certainly wouldn't be arguing that it is legal and just for me to be stealing what I did use (I doubt at this point I will ever tether now though). I would be happy to admit that what I was doing wasn't right, instead of being the pot calling the kettle black.

If you want to "steal" from AT&T that's your decision. But don't try to argue and justify your actions as being legal and defensible - they are not. If AT&T catches you, be a big boy and take your medicine (which in this case is nothing more than, "you can have everything you took, but you gotta pay from now on" - barely a slap on the wrist).

alandail
Mar 29, 2011, 07:22 AM
Thats the problem, many didn't.
AT&T did not have tethering plans before.
Also for the unlimited people they do not have the ability to add tethering.

How will they handle the Tmobile unlimited at $10 a month and all the people who tether for free on TMobile?

Unbelievable how people defend AT&T


Most Carriers offer unlimited and many free tethering.

Its hard to believe that they can offer it like this and AT&T can't.:rolleyes:

btw: I looked up the TOS for unlimited data from AT&T

"Furthermore, plans (unless specifically designated for tethering usage) cannot be used for any applications that tether the device (through use of, including without limitation, connection kits, other phone/smartphone to computer accessories, BLUETOOTHģ or any other wireless technology) to Personal Computers (including without limitation, laptops), or other equipment for any purpose."

you said "Unbelievable how people defend AT&T " - what you should be saying is "Unbelievable how people defend theft".

AT&T gives the people currently stealing service 3 options
1 - stop tethering and keep your plan that prohibits it
2 - keep tethering and switch to a plan that allows it
3 - keep tethering and have AT&T switch you to a plan that supports it

AT&T certainly would be within their rights to back charge customer for the stolen service but have chosen no to. There is no option to keep tethering without paying for the service. Why should AT&T or any other company knowingly allow their customers to continue to steal service?

If unlimited data for your phone is that important to you, you can keep it. Just buy another device for mobile data access. I'm sure AT&T has an equivalent to Verizon's MyFi - something I have used and paid for the past two years as AT&T didn't offer tethering service for the iPhone. When my MyFi contract expires, I plan to go the tethering route and give up my unlimited data plan. And sure, it costs me more money than stealing the service. Personally I never found stealing to be an option, no matter how easy.

pdjudd
Mar 29, 2011, 08:05 AM
But two wrongs don't make a right. This isn't about defending AT&T, but rather its about basic ethics/morals. AT&T may not be in the right with the way they are handling the tethering situation, but that *does not* make it legal for people to effectively steal 10's & 100's of GB of data usage.
I agree. AT&T may be acting like arses over this whole thing, but that is irrelevant. The problem at hand is that normal customers are violating a contract - one that AT&T takes seriously given that it's one of the foundations of their business. Now, I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for AT&T for various reasons, however, I made an agreement with them in good faith - AT&T provides me data and voice service, a discount on my phone hardware, and I have to give up a few things that may or may not be naturally supported on my phone (like testing without a plan) or even Tethering. I also made a time commitment guaranteeing my business.

I signed that contract and so did AT&T based on a mutual agreement. If I don't live up to that agreement, I may loose out big time, if AT&T doesn't live up to their agreement, Then I can break even at best. Yes, the contract could be ruled invalid, but those are rare things that rarely happens. Unfortunately, I doubt that AT&T is going to make such a mistake here. Point is, If I perceive an injustice, I, nor anybody else, has the right to just go and violate an agreement like that. Not when there are legitimate channels to voice your grievances.

People who are tethering without an agreement are gaming the system plain and simple. You are essentially committing fraud against AT&T by violating agreed upon terms you had no intention of following and you deserve the consequences of that.

Here is what it boils down to - if you cannot agree to terms laid out to you in advanced, no matter how one sided they may be, don't agree to the terms. If you are feeling wronged, take it to civil court. Being a jerk about entitlement only makes you look bad to the authorities and your opposition (weather it be a court or AT&T)

You don't have the right to rob your bank if they suddenly (and legally) jack your interest rates on you. You take your business elsewhere and terminate your relationship with them.

err404
Mar 29, 2011, 09:16 AM
Thats the problem, many didn't.
AT&T did not have tethering plans before.
Also for the unlimited people they do not have the ability to add tethering.

How will they handle the Tmobile unlimited at $10 a month and all the people who tether for free on TMobile?

Unbelievable how people defend AT&T


Most Carriers offer unlimited and many free tethering.

Its hard to believe that they can offer it like this and AT&T can't.:rolleyes:
I don't want to respond about ethics, just tech...
A HSDPA tower running at a given spectrum provides a fix amount of bandwidth to the coverage area.
AT&T and TMobile have their own towers and are therefore are able to provide a similar amount of bandwidth to the same geographical area.

AT&T has a higher population density, therefore more users per tower. As a result, many of their towers are at or beyond their bandwidth capacity. To mitigate this issue, they are implementing deterrents towards data usage.

TMobile has a lower population density, therefore fewer users per tower. As a result, their towers are under utilizing their bandwidth capacity. This offers them a competitive advantage that they can leverage to attract more customers. They can continue to offer generous data plans until the tower capacity is reached.

As for the merger, it's hard to say. The TMobile 3G spectrum is probably going to be taken out of service and redeployed as 4G spectrum. The efficiency gain and shifting load may be enough to allow TMobile customers to retain existing plans. Frankly it's too early to tell.

If it seems like I'm championing AT&T, I'm not. However I do see their actions in this specific case to be logical and beneficial to the reliability of their network.

Howdr
Mar 29, 2011, 09:39 AM
I don't want to respond about ethics, just tech...
A HSDPA tower running at a given spectrum provides a fix amount of bandwidth to the coverage area.
AT&T and TMobile have their own towers and are therefore are able to provide a similar amount of bandwidth to the same geographical area.

AT&T has a higher population density, therefore more users per tower. As a result, many of their towers are at or beyond their bandwidth capacity. To mitigate this issue, they are implementing deterrents towards data usage.

TMobile has a lower population density, therefore fewer users per tower. As a result, their towers are under utilizing their bandwidth capacity. This offers them a competitive advantage that they can leverage to attract more customers. They can continue to offer generous data plans until the tower capacity is reached.

As for the merger, it's hard to say. The TMobile 3G spectrum is probably going to be taken out of service and redeployed as 4G spectrum. The efficiency gain and shifting load may be enough to allow TMobile customers to retain existing plans. Frankly it's too early to tell.

If it seems like I'm championing AT&T, I'm not. However I do see their actions in this specific case to be logical and beneficial to the reliability of their network.

Your making them separate, At&t and Tmobile will be the same company soon and completely in 12 months. So my question is what will happen.

Ethics, At&t over charges knowingly and signs shady contracts at times.

The public has a right to self help at times. Jeesh it's not some game
At&t doesn't get to just do what ever they want because they can transmit the US people own the airwaves not at&t that is what the FCC is for.

Doc750
Mar 29, 2011, 10:05 AM
if you like the other companies plan, switch. But don't steal AT&T's service without paying for it.
.


turning off airport wifi, and tethering again all day today in support of your post. :rolleyes:

pdjudd
Mar 29, 2011, 10:06 AM
At&t doesn't get to just do what ever they want because they can transmit the US people own the airwaves not at&t that is what the FCC is for.

AT&T might not own the airwaves, but they do own the gateways and as such, do get to control access in legal methods - determined by the contract that you sign with them. And like it or not, right now the FCC doesn't regulate the data portion that AT&T uses - they are no laws that forbid what AT&T does and you don't get to decide otherwise. The only two parties involved are AT&T and the FCC. Not you.

Not to mention this whole argument is just irrelevant. The issue at hand is a private contract signed between two parties (you and AT&T), not the regulation over the airwaves as a whole.

yg17
Mar 29, 2011, 10:09 AM
turning off airport wifi, and tethering again all day today in support of your post. :rolleyes:

Congrats, you sound like a 4 year old kid throwing a tantrum :rolleyes:

err404
Mar 29, 2011, 10:27 AM
Your making them separate, At&t and Tmobile will be the same company soon and completely in 12 months.
My post was about the the unique fiscal and technical challenges faced by each company and why it effected policy.

So my question is what will happen.
I did answer that...


As for the merger, it's hard to say. The TMobile 3G spectrum is probably going to be taken out of service and redeployed as 4G spectrum. The efficiency gain and shifting load may be enough to allow TMobile customers to retain existing plans. Frankly it's too early to tell.



Ethics, At&t over charges knowingly and signs shady contracts at times.

The public has a right to self help at times. Jeesh it's not some game
At&t doesn't get to just do what ever they want because they can transmit the US people own the airwaves not at&t that is what the FCC is for.
I'm not interested in debating the ethics of the TOS other then to say your view of ethics are not compatible with the current limitations of the technology.

pdjudd
Mar 29, 2011, 10:37 AM
I'm not interested in debating the ethics of the TOS
I'm not either and I am sure that AT&T doesn't care either. Their concerns are not about ethics, it's about legality and maximizing profits. Contacts with business don't have to be morally ethical. They have to be legal. Not to mention that I am sure that AT&T is not interested in the fact that their services are viewed as a ripoff and that people (even their customers) view them as the devil incarnate. They care about their bottom line and how to maximize it simply because that's what their shareholders want. Their biggest concern is doing this legally and that's why they spell this stuff out in the contract - so they have grounds to legally do what they want to.

If you (g) have a problem with this, take it up with the courts. That's what they are therefore. The issue at hand has nothing to do with ethics, it's an issue of contract violation.

rkahl
Mar 29, 2011, 10:44 AM
The people who are catching the unauthorized tethering are very lucky people! I would love to send that message to everyone who doesn't believe their usage has no effect on other's! I would love to have their job for the day.

Doc750
Mar 29, 2011, 10:47 AM
Congrats, you sound like a 4 year old kid throwing a tantrum :rolleyes:

thank you!

err404
Mar 29, 2011, 11:09 AM
If you (g) have a problem with this, take it up with the courts. That's what they are therefore. The issue at hand has nothing to do with ethics, it's an issue of contract violation.

Agreed, I fully support this going to the courts.
That said, if the courts did rule in favor of the customer, AT&T is still left with the task of managing spectrum. Perhaps they will severely throttle users like VZ is proposing. Maybe terminating the contracts of high demand users like Sprint did a few years ago. Either way, the belt is going to tighten one way or another.

JeffLebowski41
Mar 29, 2011, 11:59 AM
The people who are catching the unauthorized tethering are very lucky people! I would love to send that message to everyone who doesn't believe their usage has no effect on other's! I would love to have their job for the day.

I'm sure you could volunteer as a hall monitor at a local school if it really interests you that much. They might even give you a badge if you really want to feel important.

pdjudd
Mar 29, 2011, 12:06 PM
Agreed, I fully support this going to the courts.
That said, if the courts did rule in favor of the customer, AT&T is still left with the task of managing spectrum. Perhaps they will severely throttle users like VZ is proposing. Maybe terminating the contracts of high demand users like Sprint did a few years ago. Either way, the belt is going to tighten one way or another.
I agree. The best outcome for consumers would be viewed as a push - The contract gets voided. I just don't see an out that would allow consumers to legally tether so long as AT&T provides the gateway. THe best case is that the contract gets nullified giving either party an out. Any "in" to AT&T's network is going to require another contract and you better believe that it's going to be termed so that you aren't going to get tethering for free.

The only way that AT&T and other carriers are going to make tethering free si if they are forced to by the government. Given that they haven't done this with SMS (and that is a ripoff amongst ripoffs), they aren't going to do it to tethering anytime soon.

Hobbes.
Mar 29, 2011, 12:26 PM
While I don't tether illegallly or legally for that matter my data usage ranges from to about 4-5 GB a month for 2 iphones on a unlimited family plan. We got the first iPhone before they were subsidized and had to pay like $500 for them.

I would love to pay a little more, maybe $15 bucks to tether 5GB on top of my unlimited plan but you will have to pry the iphone from my cold dead fingers before you revoke a plan that I helped create.

I was an early adopter, how dare you try and say I can't keep my plan to get new features that FRANKLY were not possible without my purchase of the original iphone.

rkahl
Mar 29, 2011, 12:34 PM
I'm sure you could volunteer as a hall monitor at a local school if it really interests you that much. They might even give you a badge if you really want to feel important.

Kids can get away with things, but grown losers need to be shown!

err404
Mar 29, 2011, 12:55 PM
I was an early adopter, how dare you try and say I can't keep my plan to get new features that FRANKLY were not possible without my purchase of the original iphone.

What are you going on about? Tethering is not an Apple only feature. It has been available for far longer then the iPhone has been around. Even my old RAZR supported tethering (BT).
As for your plan... your contract is well past expired. That means EITHER party can decide to terminate the relationship. They can drop your contract any time they want. No company can be expected to support a plan indefinitely w/o the right to re-evaluate the terms.

manman
Mar 29, 2011, 01:13 PM
I'm sure you could volunteer as a hall monitor at a local school if it really interests you that much. They might even give you a badge if you really want to feel important.

I know, right?! That kid has been cracking me up for this whole thread. He wants to swoop down in a cape for great justice and catch all the evildoers engaging in unauthorized tethering and running in the hallway. Bring AT&T a shiny apple and they will pat you on the head and tell you you're a good boy :)

rkahl
Mar 29, 2011, 01:22 PM
I know, right?! That kid has been cracking me up for this whole thread. He wants to swoop down in a cape for great justice and catch all the evildoers engaging in unauthorized tethering and running in the hallway. Bring AT&T a shiny apple and they will pat you on the head and tell you you're a good boy :)

Man on Man, that's absolutely correct! I just wish I had the super powers to be there when you get your notice!

manman
Mar 29, 2011, 01:38 PM
Man on Man, that's absolutely correct! I just wish I had the super powers to be there when you get your notice!

Man on man?! Ugh, I don't want you being anywhere around me regardless of what's happening...you can wish it all you want :rolleyes:

rkahl
Mar 29, 2011, 01:46 PM
Man on man?! Ugh, I don't want you being anywhere around me regardless of what's happening...you can wish it all you want :rolleyes:

Ooops, auto correct gets me everytime. I meant manman, not Man on Man.

Hobbes.
Mar 29, 2011, 02:19 PM
What are you going on about? Tethering is not an Apple only feature. It has been available for far longer then the iPhone has been around. Even my old RAZR supported tethering (BT).
As for your plan... your contract is well past expired. That means EITHER party can decide to terminate the relationship. They can drop your contract any time they want. No company can be expected to support a plan indefinitely w/o the right to re-evaluate the terms.

I never said it was an apple only feature. I just simply said AT&T wouldn't be offering tethering plans that directly break the unlimited data original iPhone plan without the early adopters making the iPhone a success paying $500+ for an unsubsidized phone.

Also, you are wrong, my contract is not expired, until 2012. I plan on renewing and keeping my data plan because I am grandfathered in, and if they terminated me it would be a breach of contract for they have no reason. As I stated, I DO NOT TETHER illegally.

wpotere
Mar 29, 2011, 02:29 PM
Also, you are wrong, my contract is not expired, until 2012. I plan on renewing and keeping my data plan because I am grandfathered in, and if they terminated me it would be a breach of contract for they have no reason. As I stated, I DO NOT TETHER illegally.

Wait, you are saying that they would be breaching the contract if they cancel you but you tethering on a unlimited iPhone plan in which the contract states you won't tether is not a breach? Sorry, but I am not following your logic.

err404
Mar 29, 2011, 03:17 PM
I never said it was an apple only feature. I just simply said AT&T wouldn't be offering tethering plans that directly break the unlimited data original iPhone plan without the early adopters making the iPhone a success paying $500+ for an unsubsidized phone.
I'm not following where you are getting this relationship. The tethering plans are structured the same way for every handset AT&T sells. The only way that iPhone users have contributed to the current situation, is in the growth of the AT&T user base outstripping the tower capacity. The original iPhone at it's unsubsidized price, was the lowest selling model that was made (largely because of the up front price). The outstripping success really began after the subsidized models were launched.
You seem to be suggesting that AT&T "owes" you a debt for having purchased and unsubsidized iPhone, but you are not factoring in that they did reduce the cost of the data plan to compensate (Most smartphone data plans were $30, where as the iPhone was originally $20). The total cost of the iPhone 2G was about the same as the 3G when viewed over the life of the contract.

pdjudd
Mar 29, 2011, 03:29 PM
You seem to be suggesting that AT&T "owes" you a debt for having purchased and unsubsidized iPhone,
Even if that was true, it certainly doesn't justify a contract violation. Any "dept" would be totally separate.

Of course AT&T doesn't owe anybody in that regard.

Hobbes.
Mar 29, 2011, 04:58 PM
Wait, you are saying that they would be breaching the contract if they cancel you but you tethering on a unlimited iPhone plan in which the contract states you won't tether is not a breach? Sorry, but I am not following your logic.

Follow this logic, for the third post in a row, I DO NOT TETHER.

I only replied to this post because if they try to send me any sort of a letter for something i'm not doing I will be very pissed.

All of of you that can't read, should just get off the internet.

pdjudd
Mar 29, 2011, 07:48 PM
Follow this logic, for the third post in a row, I DO NOT TETHER.

I only replied to this post because if they try to send me any sort of a letter for something i'm not doing I will be very pissed.

All of of you that can't read, should just get off the internet.

Calm down dude....

I re-read your posts and you said that you do not tether ďillegally". Some could take that to mean that you tether ďlegallyĒ which might raise some eyebrows. It was not 100% clear (even to me) that you did not tether at all period.

There are ways to legally tether, just not with a unlimited 3g iPhone plan unless you got it via another plan type and AT&T dropped the ball somewhere....

If AY&T does send you a letter I would be pissed too - however I doubt that they are using data amounts alone - that would be pretty irresponsible without further proof especially if they were mistaken....

alandail
Mar 29, 2011, 09:41 PM
Follow this logic, for the third post in a row, I DO NOT TETHER.

I only replied to this post because if they try to send me any sort of a letter for something i'm not doing I will be very pissed.

All of of you that can't read, should just get off the internet.

I'm sure they have better ways to find the people to send the letters to than to read message boards.

wpotere
Mar 30, 2011, 05:08 AM
Follow this logic, for the third post in a row, I DO NOT TETHER.



In your original post you stated " I do not tether illegally" which implied that you are actually tethering but you felt it was not illegal. My apologies.... If you don't tether then you have nothing to worry about and AT&T will not cancel your plan.

Hobbes.
Mar 30, 2011, 09:25 AM
In your original post you stated " I do not tether illegally" which implied that you are actually tethering but you felt it was not illegal. My apologies.... If you don't tether then you have nothing to worry about and AT&T will not cancel your plan.

Actually, if you read my first post, I state "While I don't tether illegallly or legally for that matter my data usage ranges from to about 4-5 GB a month for 2 iphones on a unlimited family plan."

Clear as day, saying I don't tether one way or another. I use data and won't be happy to hear from them telling me i'm doing it wrong. I stream pandora pretty much m-f from 9 to 5 for work and it adds up since it's only over 3G (no wifi in the office).

My entire reason for posting is with the slight possibility they accuse me of tethering, I have no way to prove i'm not doing it because as they have said one option is to just stop. I just don't want to get a letter when i'm not breaking the rules.

pdjudd
Mar 30, 2011, 09:37 AM
Actually, if you read my first post, I state "While I don't tether illegallly or legally for that matter my data usage ranges from to about 4-5 GB a month for 2 iphones on a unlimited family plan."[
Fair enough - I for one missed your first post (something easy to do). All I caught was the part abuot you not illegally tehtering. All you had to say is that you don't tether - adding qulaifiers can confuse people though.

And I wouldn't worry about AT&T sending you a message - your data usages are not out of the ordinary. They are only high if you had an non-unlimited plan (which you don't) and even if you did, they would assume that you just go over your limit and bill you overages.

You have the early unlimited plan. I use more data than that and I haven't gotten a message. Frankly they are probably targeting people using much more more data than you can reasonably use on a normal device.

alandail
Mar 30, 2011, 10:04 AM
Fair enough - I for one missed your first post (something easy to do). All I caught was the part abuot you not illegally tehtering. All you had to say is that you don't tether - adding qulaifiers can confuse people though.

And I wouldn't worry about AT&T sending you a message - your data usages are not out of the ordinary. They are only high if you had an non-unlimited plan (which you don't) and even if you did, they would assume that you just go over your limit and bill you overages.

You have the early unlimited plan. I use more data than that and I haven't gotten a message. Frankly they are probably targeting people using much more more data than you can reasonably use on a normal device.

or they look at the data and detect the tethering that way. It's not that hard - if a page is being accessed from a desktop version of a web browser, the person is tethering.

pdjudd
Mar 30, 2011, 02:40 PM
or they look at the data and detect the tethering that way. It's not that hard - if a page is being accessed from a desktop version of a web browser, the person is tethering.
They may use data quantity as one red flag - that way they have less work on their plate - they focus on the "data hogs". I was not trying to imply that was their sole data usage. I have no doubt that they do something more in depth (like what you suggest) to target the actual users more. It's never going to be 100% - there will be some people who receive this in error - but AT&T just cannot legally use high data users as it's basis for these tethering charges. It would be discriminatory (since the unlimited data plan does not specify a limit), plus, as we have stated before, it would be inaccurate since people can legitimately use lots of data without tethering.

AT&T isn't run by idiots here, they don't want to risk the problems of a class action suit by falsely flagging tons of accounts - they are making sure that they are minimize false positives. Despite the fact that what they are doing is entirely proper (going after contract violators), they can't make too many mistakes or else they risk severe public backlash.

All of this "its based on high data usage" is pure guesswork since we don't know what goes on on AT&T's back-end. To say that it is based on one factor is just plane ignorance of network monitoring.

Howdr
Mar 30, 2011, 06:18 PM
Since this has happened I have not read any more getting the notices,
Looks like At&t got the people they wanted to make examples of and scare others.

We have argued a lot
Ethics
Legal
Contract

I'm on the side that tethering should be free and the only thing that is charged for is data.

Also while I have unlimited Data I also think more then 10gb a month is abuse.

The true abusers are using 50 gb or more a month and many of those are not caught.

At&t has not clearly per the admissions here and elsewhere, caught or flagged high users and or all the non contracted tether people.

I think the flagging is over unless there is unusual amount of data use.......... :|

Collin789
Mar 30, 2011, 09:23 PM
This is pretty stupid. I pay for the 2 GB a month, so I can use it how I wish. I just wonder if the only people being targeted are the ones with the unlimited data. But, something tells me that's not the case...

pdjudd
Mar 30, 2011, 09:53 PM
Since this has happened I have not read any more getting the notices,

That doen’t mean anything. AT&T doesn’t just target people who are apt to complain. Who knows how many people have gotten the message and ignored or just did the right thing.

This is pretty stupid. I pay for the 2 GB a month, so I can use it how I wish.

Then why did you sign a contract with AT&T that agrees to the exact opposite of that?

neko girl
Mar 30, 2011, 09:58 PM
Then why did you sign a contract with AT&T that agrees to the exact opposite of that?
Because net neutrality rules are a joke and you'd have to be bass-ackwards to live without cell phone data these days?

He also signed a contract because it's legal to sell you a device (an iPhone), and then constrain you to a specific carrier.

My ethics argument runs completely counter to your legality argument.

Collin789
Mar 30, 2011, 10:06 PM
Then why did you sign a contract with AT&T that agrees to the exact opposite of that?[/QUOTE]

All I'm really trying to say is that it's wrong that they have it set up that way...
Its the same thing with jailbreaking you iPhone. We all know now that it's legal now, but before, lots of people were thinking it was against the law...when really, you bought the phone, you do what you wish with it. This time it's "I pay for the data, I do what I want with it."
And yes I know I signed a contract with AT&T saying the opposite BUT I'm just saying its wrong...

Collin789
Mar 30, 2011, 10:08 PM
That doenít mean anything. AT&T doesnít just target people who are apt to complain. Who knows how many people have gotten the message and ignored or just did the right thing.



Then why did you sign a contract with AT&T that agrees to the exact opposite of that?


All I'm really trying to say is that it's wrong that they have it set up that way...
Its the same thing with jailbreaking you iPhone. We all know now that it's legal now, but before, lots of people were thinking it was against the law...when really, you bought the phone, you do what you wish with it. This time it's "I pay for the data, I do what I want with it."
And yes I know I signed a contract with AT&T saying the opposite BUT I'm just saying its wrong...

pdjudd
Mar 30, 2011, 10:19 PM
Because net neutrality rules are a joke and you'd have to be bass-ackwards to live without cell phone data these days?

I consider tethering to be a separate from net neutrality. AT&T isnít blocking webisites, itís restricting things on a different level. ISPís do the same thing when they restrict peopleís abilities to run certain server operations on a consumer plan. I have no problem with this. AT&T is selling internet access, not modem operability.

He also signed a contract because it's legal to sell you a device (an iPhone), and then constrain you to a specific carrier.

That is true.

My ethics argument runs completely counter to your legality argument.

My question was largely rhetorical. I donít care about ethics. You cannot logically (in my book at least) claim you have a right to do something after you signed a contract saying that you wonít do it. Contracts are agreements after all. If you feel so strongly about your rights, why sign a contract that waives that right.

Personally, I agree with you to some degree. At least AT&T isnít restricting traffic to any particular service here. Tethering I see as completely different since it is treating your data much differently than surfing to a website or streaming music over pandora or whatever. It is a service that I should pay for since I am changing the nature of the service. I prefer to focus my efforts on SMS feeís which I consider to be a violation of NN (even though NN is not the law of the land). SMS costs the carriers zero, and itís data that you get no matter what... Itís restricting a function native to the phone that is specific to the phone itself... Tethering is quite different - involves much more statistical data usage.

Collin789
Mar 30, 2011, 10:30 PM
I consider tethering to be a separate from net neutrality. AT&T isnít blocking webisites, itís restricting things on a different level. ISPís do the same thing when they restrict peopleís abilities to run certain server operations on a consumer plan. I have no problem with this. AT&T is selling internet access, not modem operability.



That is true.



My question was largely rhetorical. I donít care about ethics. You cannot logically (in my book at least) claim you have a right to do something after you signed a contract saying that you wonít do it. Contracts are agreements after all. If you feel so strongly about your rights, why sign a contract that waives that right.

Personally, I agree with you to some degree. At least AT&T isnít restricting traffic to any particular service here. Tethering I see as completely different since it is treating your data much differently than surfing to a website or streaming music over pandora or whatever. It is a service that I should pay for since I am changing the nature of the service. I prefer to focus my efforts on SMS feeís which I consider to be a violation of NN (even though NN is not the law of the land). SMS costs the carriers zero, and itís data that you get no matter what... Itís restricting a function native to the phone that is specific to the phone itself... Tethering is quite different - involves much more statistical data usage.

See if I was letting a bunch of random people use my AT&T data that would be a different story. But all I am doing when I'm tethering is taking my iPhone data and using it on my computer instead of using it on my iPhone...

neko girl
Mar 30, 2011, 10:46 PM
I donít care about ethics. You cannot logically (in my book at least) claim you have a right to do something after you signed a contract saying that you wonít do it. Contracts are agreements after all. If you feel so strongly about your rights, why sign a contract that waives that right.
Contracts enforcing unethical laws do not (cannot) be tantamount to waiving rights. We have many examples in history where doing something by the letter of the law isn't the same as agreeing to its principles.

It is, as they say, fighting fire with fire.

I can't feel all that sorry for AT&T.

Howdr
Mar 31, 2011, 12:33 AM
I wonder how many argue the tethering on At&t are on At&t themselves? I have read those people who are on T mobile

Per Apple you cannot use an IPhone on TMobile. To do so means you JB and unlock which is against Apple policy.

Apple would sue over this if they cared to it's just as wrong as breaking the tethering contract.

You see you can't say one thing is ok and another is not.

I guess I'm an old fashioned freedom fighter at heart.
I want to pay for things but have the freedom to use them.

I was one of the first of thousands who had wireless router at home that I shared home Internet when the providers said you could not.

I shared my cable within my home with 1 other tv back when we were not to.

This is no different just many of you are too young to know about the struggles we had in the past with stupid ideas to overcharge.

Paying extra for a "switch" to use the same data is another stupid money grubbing idea.

At&t owes us.

Without IPhone they would not have had 15 million customers out of 70 million, almost half of what they are getting with the T mobile deal.

The Internet was given to us for free but as expected it's becoming an expensive gift............

Banner Creator
Mar 31, 2011, 03:01 AM
This doesn't surprise me at all, or maybe just too little to notice :)

wpotere
Mar 31, 2011, 04:57 AM
The Internet was given to us for free but as expected it's becoming an expensive gift............

It takes expensive equipment to run it. How do you think that they should pay for that equimpent?

Old Tony
Mar 31, 2011, 06:25 AM
With something so simple that everyone can feed on it: LOVE :D

wpotere
Mar 31, 2011, 06:30 AM
With something so simple that everyone can feed on it: LOVE :D

LOL, I'm gonna send that in with my next bill to see what happens. :D

Word Warrior
Mar 31, 2011, 09:28 AM
According to Macworld Mainline http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?olo=email&NewsID=3267716 O2 in the UK are to allow tethering for free, although it doesn't make it clear if it's just for iPad/iPod or whether you can tether a laptop to your iPhone 4 too. Hope so! :)

Azzin
Mar 31, 2011, 11:49 AM
According to Macworld Mainline http://www.macworld.co.uk/news/index.cfm?olo=email&NewsID=3267716 O2 in the UK are to allow tethering for free, although it doesn't make it clear if it's just for iPad/iPod or whether you can tether a laptop to your iPhone 4 too. Hope so! :)

I think you can tether to whatever you want, but they are new tariffs you have to move to and for sopem folks (on the older unlimited) tariffs, it's not a great move as the new tariffs come with usage limits.

Word Warrior
Mar 31, 2011, 11:54 AM
I think you can tether to whatever you want, but they are new tariffs you have to move to and for sopem folks (on the older unlimited) tariffs, it's not a great move as the new tariffs come with usage limits.
I think the usage tariff came in with iphone 4 anyway and the way I read it they are increasing what I already have so could be good news. Mind you, I can't find reference on the O2 website yet. Just Macworld.

I wait with interest.

Azzin
Mar 31, 2011, 11:58 AM
I think the usage tariff came in with iphone 4 anyway and the way I read it they are increasing what I already have so could be good news. Mind you, I can't find reference on the O2 website yet. Just Macworld.

I wait with interest.

The move from the legacy unlimited tariffs did come in with the iPhone4, yes.

The new SIM Only tariffs are here: http://www.o2.co.uk/tariffs/simplicity

Word Warrior
Mar 31, 2011, 12:17 PM
The move from the legacy unlimited tariffs did come in with the iPhone4, yes.

The new SIM Only tariffs are here: http://www.o2.co.uk/tariffs/simplicity
I'm still under contract and just gone to "My O2" the tethering bolt on is still with a price attached. Hopefully they'll announce it officially soon, it would be useful for me.

Azzin
Mar 31, 2011, 12:21 PM
I'm still under contract and just gone to "My O2" the tethering bolt on is still with a price attached. Hopefully they'll announce it officially soon, it would be useful for me.

I think you'll need to give up you unlimited data and get the the bolt on (with it's data allowance) to enable tethering.

I've read a fair few threads with people saying they will be worse off from a data perspective and a cost perspective changing tariffs just to get tethering.

Scroll down to see the tethering info: http://www.o2.co.uk/tariffs/paymonthly

alandail
Mar 31, 2011, 09:21 PM
See if I was letting a bunch of random people use my AT&T data that would be a different story. But all I am doing when I'm tethering is taking my iPhone data and using it on my computer instead of using it on my iPhone...

there are a few problems with what you said.

1 - you signed a contract that said you can't do that

2 - you aren't just using one device instead of the other, you are using both of them at the same time. The whole time you are using the computer, the phone is doing things like accessing mail, accepting push notifications, etc.

3 - the bandwidth load of the computer is likely higher. A larger screen means any streamed video is likely higher resolution. It also means multiple apps that may access the web running simultaneously. Or even multiple pages open at once in a web browser. All of this adds to the peak bandwidth load AT&T has to support.

Everyone seems to completely miss this issue too. The load on the system to simultaneously handle multiple devices over a single connection is larger than a single device on the same connection. They're all doing stuff in the background in addition to whatever you're actively doing.

Howdr
Mar 31, 2011, 10:40 PM
Everyone seems to completely miss this issue too. The load on the system to simultaneously handle multiple devices over a single connection is larger than a single device on the same connection. They're all doing stuff in the background in addition to whatever you're actively doing.

This is just not true there is no extra load, I'm tired of this Myth.
It has not been proven,
It's just the argument At&t has and I have to tell you, The FCC better step in if the Largest Cell company can't handle less then 5% high use Internet. At&t will have 100 million users and want us to believe 300,000 scattered across the whole USA will eat all the bandwidth?

It's not true
If it is then At&t should be kept from buying TMobile
Lol

alandail
Mar 31, 2011, 10:45 PM
This is just not true there is no extra load, I'm tired of this Myth.
It has not been proven,
It's just the argument At&t has and I have to tell you, The FCC better step in if the Largest Cell company can't handle less then 5% high use Internet. At&t will have 100 million users and want us to believe 300,000 scattered across the whole USA will eat all the bandwidth?

It's not true
If it is then At&t should be kept from buying TMobile
Lol

I didn't even get that from AT&T. It's absolutely true that multiple devices put more load on the network than a single device does. Whoever said it eats all of the bandwidth? I certainly didn't. I said it adds extra load that isn't being paid for. That it's another reason beyond and separate from the monthly data limits that there is an extra charge to pay.

And where do you get your 300k number from. There certainly are a lot more than 300k smart phones capable of tethering out there.

Some people certainly go through great lengths to self-justify stealing. Do you steal software/music and self-justify it by saying it didn't cost the developer/singer anything because you weren't going to buy it anyway, then go ahead and use/listen to the product of their hard work as if you had paid for it?

Azzin
Apr 1, 2011, 01:44 AM
I've got no axe to grind here either way as I'm in the UK and nowhere near a heavy data user (I have a 500Mb allowance on my iPhone 4 (Vodafone) and a 3 month/3 gig allowance SIM on my iPad (3).

Isn't the basic issue here that people who have unlimited tariffs from AT&T are unhappy that they could use (for example) 10 gig of data on their iPhones and be within the terms of the contract, yet aren't allowed to use that same 10 gig, by using 5 gig via the iPhone and another 5 gig via tethering?

FWIW, I think the issue is semantics and I kind of see it from both sides.

AT&T offer unlimited data (but no tethering) via the contract (and it was a contract that was agreed to by both AT&T and the customer), yet now that tethering has become more accessible don't want the customer to use that unlimited data by anything other than the iPhone?

What about those folks on Android handsets (that have pretty much always had a hotspot option), are they in the same boat?

I think it's a situation that needs a review to be honest because the landscape has changed due to tethering largely unheard of/used when theose contracts were signed.

O2 & T-Mobile in the Uk went through a similar situation in the UK by suddenly announcing that unlimited data was being removed for everyone, but then had to back down after a widespread round of bad PR online and agree that customers that had unlimited would keep it and anyone who signed up after "x" date would go on to the newer (not unlimited tariffs).

In the UK, if an mobile provider changes it's Ts & Cs (by removing unlimited data for example) then the customer has the right to terminate the contract without penalty.

This meant that people who had signed up for 18 month/2 year contracts and got a free/subsidised phone were allowed to leave and keep the phone!!

When O2 & T-Mob realised what a bad move this was, they backtracked and changed it to "new customers after x date".

I know it's not directly comparable, but perhaps AT&T should have considered something similar?

New customers from "x" date aren't allowed to tether, but existing customers (only those on unlimited tariffs) can?

I fall into the camp that unlimited should mean unlimited and AT&T shouldn't have any interest in how the data is being used, but I do get that a contract was entered into by people with unlimited data that didn't allow tethering.

As I say, I think it needs a review, as (as we say in the UK) the goalposts have moved, since those unlimited data tariff contracts were signed.

drummingcraig
Apr 1, 2011, 02:30 AM
This is just not true there is no extra load, I'm tired of this Myth.
It has not been proven,

I just don't see how you can possibly think that data overload is a myth? :confused: I PROMISE you that if we sat side-by-side, you with just an iPhone and me with my laptop tethered to my iPhone, and we both use each device as much as possible I will be able to eat thru several factors more data than you - EASILY! AT&T is already struggling with folks just trying to use their iPhones legitimately. Imagine if they just opened the gates and said "have at it folks"...it would be a nightmare unless they spent millions & millions to beef up the network.

It's just the argument At&t has and I have to tell you, The FCC better step in if the Largest Cell company can't handle less then 5% high use Internet. At&t will have 100 million users and want us to believe 300,000 scattered across the whole USA will eat all the bandwidth?

It's not true
If it is then At&t should be kept from buying TMobile
Lol

Where are you getting your numbers from?

Do you live in/have you visited a city like New York or San Francisco and tried to use the data connection on your iPhone? I can tell you that I have (in both cities actually) and the experience was abysmal compared to the speed of the network where I live. Reason being is that there (obviously) is such a high concentration of people who live in those cities, own smartphones and are all trying to use them at the same time. Now take half of those folks and have them start tethering with medium to heavy usage. It just snowballs from there.

Tethering isn't going to cause issues in smaller cities with fewer users. The problem is in areas where there is a large concentration of people with smartphones, mobile laptop cards/hotspots and laptops/tablets. Add to that the folks out there who given the opportunity will download GB after GB of media and it *is* a problem.

Howdr
Apr 1, 2011, 08:22 AM
I just don't see how you can possibly think that data overload is a myth? :confused: I PROMISE you that if we sat side-by-side, you with just an iPhone and me with my laptop tethered to my iPhone, and we both use each device as much as possible I will be able to eat thru several factors more data than you - EASILY! AT&T is already struggling with folks just trying to use their iPhones legitimately. Imagine if they just opened the gates and said "have at it folks"...it would be a nightmare unless they spent millions & millions to beef up the network. The Data stream is the same rate if you stream videos on the phone or I use my laptop. Thats the problem, we have so many non IT people here claiming crap. You cannot make the Data flow faster through the phone because its tethered, the phone's modem is the phone's modem.
This argument is based on emotion.
You use 400mb if streaming on the phone or the laptop, the movie will play either way.


Where are you getting your numbers from? I'm not going to go through all the articles just for your sake.

The numbers
At&t claims 15 million Iphone user July 2010
At&t claims that 2% abuse the Data programs (this includes Android)
2% of 15 million is 300,000 ( if all 2% is Iphone)

At&t had 71 million customers in July 2010

At&t is buying TMobile they have about 30 million customers and many with $10 unlimited Data plans and many tether also

At&t has a potential for 100 million customers thats almost 1/3 the population of the USA!

I'm OK with saying 200,000 Iphone Data tether's across the whole USA, you are then saying less then 2% of all the Iphones out there cause the network to fail. Really? If so then At&t needs to sell to a company who can run the network properly.

New number, Currently about 71million At&t wireless customers, 300,000 is only 0.004%, we are in trouble if 0.004% can bring down the system!

Do you live in/have you visited a city like New York or San Francisco and tried to use the data connection on your iPhone? I can tell you that I have (in both cities actually) and the experience was abysmal compared to the speed of the network where I live. Reason being is that there (obviously) is such a high concentration of people who live in those cities, own smartphones and are all trying to use them at the same time. Now take half of those folks and have them start tethering with medium to heavy usage. It just snowballs from there. I have not only lived in NY NY but also London, Have you? As far as problems with the network, it has nothing to do with tethering, its an excuse, AT&T needs to make the system work and people that keep up this stupid "Tethering" is causeing the problem is just missing the real problem, other networks do just fine and allow it, AT&T philosophy of buy buy other's and not fix their own service is the real issue.

Tethering isn't going to cause issues in smaller cities with fewer users. The problem is in areas where there is a large concentration of people with smartphones, mobile laptop cards/hotspots and laptops/tablets. Add to that the folks out there who given the opportunity will download GB after GB of media and it *is* a problem. What about these GB after GB streaming people without tethering.

You can't prove that someone using a GB in an hour ( I have done it on just the phone) and someone tethering GB in an hour is different.

I don't buy it the physics makes no sense.
The phone's modem is only so fast

Tethering causing the Data load verses Phone only not causing the Data load when using the same amount of Data is a MYTH.

I have not seen any real proof (Like a real study) so far, just claims.

Good try At&t employees :cool:

Rodimus Prime
Apr 1, 2011, 10:53 AM
What about these GB after GB streaming people without tethering.

You can't prove that someone using a GB in an hour ( I have done it on just the phone) and someone tethering GB in an hour is different.

I don't buy it the physics makes no sense.
The phone's modem is only so fast

Tethering causing the Data load verses Phone only not causing the Data load when using the same amount of Data is a MYTH.

I have not seen any real proof (Like a real study) so far, just claims.

Good try At&t employees :cool:

Ummm you still do not get it. it is based on a models. A iPhone teathering is going to have a higher usage average per day than one who does not.
While the streaming might be the same per hour difference is the iPhone only one can have it quality lowered with no noticeable effect effect so it is more likely to be reduced compared to a computer. This is due to smaller screen and speakers that are not as good.

Also you need to look at things other than just streaming in usage. Computer is going to be loading and moving threw web pages at a much higher rate of speed and can multi task web pages much easier than a phone. On top of that you have all the other things a computer can do that will pull data off the internet.

It is not about max amount of data pull down for a limited amount of time but total average usage per day. A teathering iPhone vs no Tethering iPhone the teathering iPhone will have more.

Simple proof of this is lets look at them. the Iphone part of a tethering use iPhone will pull down the same data per day as a non tethering iPhone but the difference is the teathering iPhone now also has the data pull down of hte computer or other devices added to it.

alandail
Apr 1, 2011, 11:04 AM
The Data stream is the same rate if you stream videos on the phone or I use my laptop. Thats the problem, we have so many non IT people here claiming crap. You cannot make the Data flow faster through the phone because its tethered, the phone's modem is the phone's modem.

talk about claiming crap.

stream a video to an iPhone, you just need enough quality to display it on a 3.5 inch screen. Stream the same video to your computer and you need a higher data rate to get a good picture. So stream from youtube, suddenly you're selecting the HD version of the same video (something that isn't even an option on the iPhone) so it will look good on your much larger screen and are thus streaming in a much higher data rate. Some of these resolution adjustments are made automatically. For example, Netflix will most likely stream a higher resolution version of a movie to a large display than it does to a smaller display.

And on your computer you can switch to another window and load more web pages, some of which may have embedded video, all while that first video is still playing. On the phone the first video pauses and thus stops streaming data when you switch to another page or app.

The computer absolutely allows and uses higher data bandwidth than the phone. And most certainly having both connected at the same time takes more bandwidth than having the connection limited to one device.

At&t is buying TMobile they have about 30 million customers and many with $10 unlimited Data plans and many tether also

also, where is this $10 data plan that includes tethering? I can't find it. All I can find is people abusing T-Mobile by getting a $10 plan that isn't for smart phones, then breaking their agreement with T-Mobile by switching their SIMM to an Android phone (which breaks one term of their contract) and enabling tethering (which breaks another term of their contract). I've asked in this thread and haven't gotten an answer yet, where is the T-Mobile plan that allows unlimited data and tethering on a smart phone? I believe the plan I saw costs $45/month for that.

Somehow because people are stealing service from T-Moble makes it okay to steal service from AT&T?

drummingcraig
Apr 1, 2011, 11:35 AM
What about these GB after GB streaming people without tethering.

You can't prove that someone using a GB in an hour ( I have done it on just the phone) and someone tethering GB in an hour is different.

I don't buy it the physics makes no sense.
The phone's modem is only so fast

Tethering causing the Data load verses Phone only not causing the Data load when using the same amount of Data is a MYTH.

I have not seen any real proof (Like a real study) so far, just claims.

Good try At&t employees :cool:

If tethering makes no difference, and streaming higher quality content doesn't make a difference and increased load on the iPhone's modem doesn't have a negative affect, then why does Apple hinder certain apps when they are running on 3G/EDGE (ie iTunes, Youtube & Facetime)? :rolleyes:

MagnusVonMagnum
Apr 1, 2011, 03:45 PM
Option 3; STOP trying to cheat the system

Yes, because them wanting to charge you MORE $$$$ for the same data you legitimately paid for (only used differently) is fair ??? Bullcrap. We the people need to start taking back this country/world. We let all these corporations rip us off financially day in and day out and then when they crash the entire system like with this mortgage and financial meltdown, THEY get bailed out while we get HOSED. :mad:

I think it's time people started taking back this planet away from the greedy corporations and made it a place where people don't feel like greasy weasels that just got screwed six ways till Sunday every time you deal with one of these companies. Them and their "unlimited data" that doesn't not mean "unlimited" in ANY sense of the word. What a crock. These companies should get SUED every time they misuse words like that. I'm tired of small print in advertising that basically says "See that garbage we're saying on the screen right now? Those are ACTORS LYING THROUGH THEIR TEETH. Our products don't work as advertised and haven't been shown in testing to do anything but separate you from your hard earned money!" :mad:

TC25
Apr 1, 2011, 05:42 PM
Yes, because them wanting to ...

Thanks for the laugh.

marksman
Apr 1, 2011, 05:54 PM
It is interesting to note most of the criminals in this thread who steal from AT&T, come across as not even being legally able to sign a contract.

So from that perspective i guess they got check and mate.

So congrats to you guys for stealing from AT&T. Just hope your parents don't get into any trouble.

HeyItsRaymond
Apr 1, 2011, 06:20 PM
It is interesting to note most of the criminals in this thread who steal from AT&T, come across as not even being legally able to sign a contract.

So from that perspective i guess they got check and mate.

So congrats to you guys for stealing from AT&T. Just hope your parents don't get into any trouble.

I like how you keep referring to everyone as "criminals" when there is nothing "criminal" about tethering using a Jailbroken iPhone (jailbreaking is legal) and using a third party app to access additional features of your phone, which is also legal.

At most it is breaking the TOS, but it is in no way illegal.

Sounds Good
Apr 1, 2011, 06:29 PM
So where are we at with this?

Is jailbreak tethering dying/dead? Or can it still be done? Or ??? :confused:

alandail
Apr 1, 2011, 06:56 PM
I like how you keep referring to everyone as "criminals" when there is nothing "criminal" about tethering using a Jailbroken iPhone (jailbreaking is legal) and using a third party app to access additional features of your phone, which is also legal.

At most it is breaking the TOS, but it is in no way illegal.

it is stealing service, which is illegal.

you go to a drive in movie, pay your admission, park your car, then unload your kids hidden in the trunk. You argue you are only taking up the same 1 parking space and you already paid to watch the movie from that spot. Isn't that illegal? How is this any different? The answer is it isn't - in both cases you are stealing service you didn't pay for.

Azzin
Apr 2, 2011, 03:31 AM
As I mentioned before, I have no axe to grind either way, but my take on it is that your iPhone can only ever receive data at "x" speeds/rates.

For example, in my iPhone I have a Vodafone (UK) SIM and at home for example I get about 2.5Mbps down on any given speed test.

Now, if I were to download at full pelt on my iPhone for an hour I could only download "x" amount of data in that 60 minutes due to the network I'm on and my location.

So, if I were to tether my phone to my iPad and my laptop for example, I am still only able to download at that same speed for that 60 minutes, so what's the issue (apart from the contract saying that I'm not allowed to tether)?

Connecting 2 x extra devices to my iPhone's data connection isn't going to magically make Vodafone increase the speeds I get (and therefore increase the amount of data I can receive).

Just my 2p's worth. :)

HeyItsRaymond
Apr 2, 2011, 06:46 AM
It is interesting to note most of the criminals in this thread who steal from AT&T, come across as not even being legally able to sign a contract.

So from that perspective i guess they got check and mate.

So congrats to you guys for stealing from AT&T. Just hope your parents don't get into any trouble.

http://wrotemeamanual.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/high_horse.jpg

I have Verizon and personally hate AT&T (aka A Fee & Fee) so I could care less what they do to alienate their customer base. If I had AT&T and paid $45 each month for 4GB (plus $10 each additional GB) of data and tethering plus extra $$$ for a voice plan and gave up an unlimited plan then their network better be damn reliable at all times. And all of us ex AT&T customers know that it is 100% reliable 24/7/365 right?

The more they screw with their customers the more people will migrate over to Verizon. And I don't see the AT&T / T-Mobile merger making it pass anti-trust anytime soon so hopefully the other carriers will eventually get the iPhone and then we'll all have a greater choice.

I only pay $40 a month with Verizon for my voice and unlimited data because I never use the voice part. (I have a secret voice plan that's not advertised and my friend that works at Verizon got me. I get 50 peak and 250 off-peak minutes a month for $9.99) I use Skype over the data portion when I need to make calls. I have 4 "Skype-in" numbers that I use for my business and it's good to have them all ring to one phone.

HeyItsRaymond
Apr 2, 2011, 07:20 AM
it is stealing service, which is illegal.

you go to a drive in movie, pay your admission, park your car, then unload your kids hidden in the trunk. You argue you are only taking up the same 1 parking space and you already paid to watch the movie from that spot. Isn't that illegal? How is this any different? The answer is it isn't - in both cases you are stealing service you didn't pay for.

This analogy makes no sense. I'm the only one using the phone data. I'm not broadcasting it to 4 people.

Imagine that you went to buy a DVD and they asked you at the register how many DVD's players you had in your house because you can only play it on one DVD player for $19.99 but if you want to play it in any other DVD player it is going to cost you $9.99 for each additional player you own and want to use to watch the DVD. Same scam.

Azzin
Apr 2, 2011, 07:27 AM
This analogy makes no sense. I'm the only one using the phone data. I'm not broadcasting it to 4 people.

Imagine that you went to buy a DVD and they asked you at the register how many DVD's players you had in your house because you can only play it on one DVD player for $19.99 but if you want to play it in any other DVD player it is going to cost you $9.99 for each additional player you own and want to use to watch the DVD. Same scam.

I don't buy DVD's anymore. Thank You RipIt and Netflix. I currently have 8TB of movies at an average file size of 600MB each ;-)

Agreed.

Isn't it the same as connecting a router to your home BB connection and allowing 4 (or more!) computers in the house to use that single connection?

I know that home ISPs normally have a fair usage policy, so if more than your allowed amount was downloaded through the connection in any given month they would probably make you "aware", but the principle is the same isn't it?

I guess what I'm trying to say I'd that adding devices to any Internet connection doesn't give you the ability to download any extra data that you're not paying for...

qooberman
Apr 2, 2011, 07:34 AM
I guess when you get a email, letter or test message from AT&T about you tethering your phone then you should worry. AT&T might automatically add tethering to their plan. Especially with the merger coming up and they being the big bully.

HeyItsRaymond
Apr 2, 2011, 07:38 AM
The idea of AT&T asking to pay for a service that in reality doesn't give an "extra" data or increased speed, but just allows you to attach a laptop is as ludicrous as the banks making a customer pay $5-$15 to talk to a teller or $5 to talk to a customer service rep on the phone.

They are making way more interest off our money they they pay out in return (mostly on risky home loans and other B.S.) and they have the nerve to charge those fees.

The frightening thing is that American's are so stupid, lazy and passive that they just bend over and accept it, without lube.

Next time Chase or Bank of America says that they are raising or creating some BS fee all the customers (aka victims) should go down to the local branch and close their accounts and ask for cash. But that will never happen and the banks know that.

If every single person that got a "warning" text or letter went down and paid the ETF and let AT&T know why, I bet they'd be begging to keep them.

I don't use a major bank that charges fees and I don't have AT&T so it doesn't affect me. Just like I don't shop at Borders, Barnes and Nobel or Best Buy because their "policies" are crap and I can get a better deal without sales tax and with free shipping from Amazon. No inept employees and saving money? Gotta Love it.

HeyItsRaymond
Apr 2, 2011, 08:17 AM
Haha....AT&T is unbeleivable.

Yet another way to get out of your contract. We should all go buy iPhones and then call customer service, drop a few F-Bombs and get our contracts cancelled. It could be a lucrative side business. Buy a phone for $199 and sell it on Craigslist for $500

They really are arrogant idiots aren't they?

Read More Here:

http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/?p=70652

QuarterSwede
Apr 2, 2011, 08:31 AM
As I mentioned before, I have no axe to grind either way, but my take on it is that your iPhone can only ever receive data at "x" speeds/rates.

For example, in my iPhone I have a Vodafone (UK) SIM and at home for example I get about 2.5Mbps down on any given speed test.

Now, if I were to download at full pelt on my iPhone for an hour I could only download "x" amount of data in that 60 minutes due to the network I'm on and my location.

So, if I were to tether my phone to my iPad and my laptop for example, I am still only able to download at that same speed for that 60 minutes, so what's the issue (apart from the contract saying that I'm not allowed to tether)?

Connecting 2 x extra devices to my iPhone's data connection isn't going to magically make Vodafone increase the speeds I get (and therefore increase the amount of data I can receive).

Just my 2p's worth. :)
Theoretically that's correct. The phone can only pull down so much bandwidth. The issue is that the iPhone, most of the time, isn't going to be maxing out it's bandwidth. A computer tethered to it can do that much easier. That's the real issue.

rkahl
Apr 2, 2011, 09:00 AM
Haha....AT&T is unbeleivable.

Yet another way to get out of your contract. We should all go buy iPhones and then call customer service, drop a few F-Bombs and get our contracts cancelled. It could be a lucrative side business. Buy a phone for $199 and sell it on Craigslist for $500

They really are arrogant idiots aren't they?

Read More Here:

http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/?p=70652

How old are you? Seriously?

HeyItsRaymond
Apr 2, 2011, 09:01 AM
How old are you? Seriously?

29-Years Old.

Successful Consulting Business and I have earned two Masters degrees.

Any other questions?

wpotere
Apr 2, 2011, 09:25 AM
29-Years Old.

Successful Consulting Business and I have earned two Masters degrees.

Any other questions?

Yeah right... :rolleyes:

HeyItsRaymond
Apr 2, 2011, 09:27 AM
Yeah right... :rolleyes:

Okay, I admit that I lied.

I don't get my second one until the end of May.

Working on finishing that up right now.

But thanks for your concern.

rkahl
Apr 2, 2011, 09:56 AM
Sounds like your typical Barista at Starbucks.

Thedeathbear
Apr 2, 2011, 10:14 AM
I like how the title of the thread says unauthorized, not illegal, tethering. I think that is because it isnt criminal.