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View Full Version : How do MBAs SSD sustain itself with no TRIM?




kkel19
Mar 20, 2011, 09:05 PM
Do our MBA just eventually slow down overtime since there is no trim support?



KPOM
Mar 20, 2011, 09:16 PM
It's probably a moot point since TRIM is on its way. The latest MacBook Pros ship with a special version of OS X 10.6.6 that enables TRIM. That means it is likely we'll get an update that supports TRIM, as well. If not, it's almost certain that Lion (10.7) will have TRIM support.

Until then, the Toshiba and Samsung drives that Apple uses in its current models do support garbage collection, which helps maintain performance.

iNotion
Mar 20, 2011, 09:22 PM
Wait for OS10.6.7, which is coming soon...:apple:

ovrkast
Mar 21, 2011, 12:57 PM
I thought that TRIM has to be supported by both hardware and support, and not just by one or the other? :confused:

Psilocybin
Mar 21, 2011, 01:10 PM
I thought that TRIM has to be supported by both hardware and support, and not just by one or the other? :confused:

both hardware and software must support trim

ovrkast
Mar 21, 2011, 01:18 PM
both hardware and software must support trim

So does that mean our SSD in the MBA support TRIM? If I understand correctly, OSX Lion supports TRIM from the "software" level but if the default SSD's in the MBA on the "hardware" level, then there is no TRIM functionality? :confused:

I guess what I'm really asking is that when OSX Lion comes to the table in summer, will our new MBA's have TRIM support via hardward and software?

cleric
Mar 21, 2011, 01:22 PM
You throw it away when you fill up the hard drive.

Psilocybin
Mar 21, 2011, 01:28 PM
So does that mean our SSD in the MBA support TRIM? If I understand correctly, OSX Lion supports TRIM from the "software" level but if the default SSD's in the MBA on the "hardware" level, then there is no TRIM functionality? :confused:

I guess what I'm really asking is that when OSX Lion comes to the table in summer, will our new MBA's have TRIM support via hardward and software?

yes the mba (late 2010) hard drives support trim

KPOM
Mar 21, 2011, 01:29 PM
So does that mean our SSD in the MBA support TRIM? If I understand correctly, OSX Lion supports TRIM from the "software" level but if the default SSD's in the MBA on the "hardware" level, then there is no TRIM functionality? :confused:

I guess what I'm really asking is that when OSX Lion comes to the table in summer, will our new MBA's have TRIM support via hardward and software?

Yes, the drives in the current MacBook Air support TRIM. You can tell that since TRIM is active in a Windows 7 Boot Camp partition on them.

The Catalyst
Mar 21, 2011, 01:30 PM
You throw it away when you fill up the hard drive.

Heh.

ovrkast
Mar 21, 2011, 03:26 PM
Yes, the drives in the current MacBook Air support TRIM. You can tell that since TRIM is active in a Windows 7 Boot Camp partition on them.

Phew...that is good to know! I was starting to get concerned that my 3 day old 13" MBA Ultimate did not have a SSD with TRIM support for when OSX Lion arrives. :)

stockscalper
Mar 21, 2011, 03:30 PM
Windows thinking! Trim is for Windows machines with SSD's. And just like you need to degrag their sorry hard drives you need to trim their SSD's. Macs are different. The Mac OS doesn't mess up the drives like Windows, that craps all over everything.

KPOM
Mar 21, 2011, 03:37 PM
Windows thinking! Trim is for Windows machines with SSD's. And just like you need to degrag their sorry hard drives you need to trim their SSD's. Macs are different. The Mac OS doesn't mess up the drives like Windows, that craps all over everything.

Actually, any amount of writing and deleting will cause an SSD's performance to degrade. The Toshiba and Samsung drives that Apple uses do a lot of OS-independent "garbage collection" that helps, but TRIM support will still come in handy.

stockscalper
Mar 21, 2011, 03:40 PM
Actually, any amount of writing and deleting will cause an SSD's performance to degrade. The Toshiba and Samsung drives that Apple uses do a lot of OS-independent "garbage collection" that helps, but TRIM support will still come in handy.

Do a search on the internets for the MacWorld torture tests that proved that ain't so.

dasmb
Mar 21, 2011, 03:57 PM
As you probably know, data is never really "deleted" from a file system -- the file's name is removed and the data is added to a list of "free space."

On a first gen SSD, these "free space" blocks become interleaved with "actually used in files" blocks. Unfortunately, in order to reclaim space on part of an SSD block, you have to clear and re-write the entire block. Magnetic hard drives, for which all existing drivers and file systems were designed, do not have this limitation. The end result was write pauses as drives aged, and more of their free space was interleaved with real data.

Second gen SSDs got around this by using idle time garbage collection, wherein drives that are not busy go through written blocks looking for deleted data. Each block must be checked individually, there's no "hit list," and so idle GC is an inefficient way to clear up blocks. For laptop users who frequently close their lids, there isn't as much GC as there is for a server user and thus idle GC is less useful.

TRIM takes this to the next level, proactively identifying blocks with free space on delete and making garbage collection much more efficient.

TRIM will play nicely on any "stress test" that has a server-like load -- where data is in constant motion without extended (minutes or longer) periods of rest where GC can run a full cycle. In "real world" desktop/laptop tests, TRIM is not magic or even a necessity; many users will not notice much difference beyond idle GC. Users without idle GC (such as my first gen SSD at work) will notice a HUGE difference between garbage collection and none, regardless of the collection technique (idle or TRIM). Drives using alternative storage techniques, such as the SandForce controller, should not notice any difference with TRIM since storage is allocated much differently.

Qusus
Mar 21, 2011, 03:59 PM
stockscalper is right that when Macworld tested the new SSD's in the Air performance did not substantially degrade after torture tests and re-installing the OS.

This was an interesting result and there are a several explanations for why this might be true.

However, one explanation that is definitely wrong is that somehow OS X doesn't "mess up" SSD's like Windows does.

Performance degradation of SSD's on Mac's have already been proven a variety of SSD's in the past. Newer SSD's are much better at garbage collection which partially explains the Macworld results.

If it were true that OS X doesn't "mess up" SSDs like Windows does, then we would expect to see that all SSDs (not just the newer ones found in the Air), including those without garbage collection, do not experience performance loss over time. But this is not the case.

In any case, a lot of results have shown that newer SSDs with garbage collection (beginning with the SF controllers) do a much better job of retaining performance over time than the first wave of SSDs. TRIM might still be helpful in the long run but it's not a big of a problem as it was so I wouldn't worry too much about it, especially since TRIM is coming soon to OS X anyways.

Psilocybin
Mar 21, 2011, 05:03 PM
Wait for OS10.6.7, which is coming soon...:apple:

10.6.7 is available now
And no there's no trim

gnasher729
Mar 21, 2011, 05:54 PM
...a lot of results have shown that newer SSDs with garbage collection (beginning with the SF controllers) do a much better job of retaining performance over time than the first wave of SSDs. TRIM might still be helpful in the long run but it's not a big of a problem as it was so I wouldn't worry too much about it, especially since TRIM is coming soon to OS X anyways.

Actually, TRIM works in the short term. TRIM helps when you delete a file by telling the SSD drive that some space doesn't contain valid data anymore. That means the drive doesn't need to use garbage collection for that area, because it _knows_ the area is unused.

Let's say you delete 10 MB of data, and then you add 10 MB again, and the OS reuses the 10 MB that were just deleted. With TRIM, the drive _knows_ that the 10 MB are unused and filling with 10 MB of new data is quick. Without TRIM, re-using these 10 MB is slower. However, once the 10 MB have been rewritten, TRIM or no TRIM makes no difference anymore.

DarwinOSX
Mar 21, 2011, 07:08 PM
All this freaking out about trim is about as silly as the sudden experts on thermal paste application. Read the Anandtech review among others. Its not an issue.

iDisk
Mar 21, 2011, 08:01 PM
Apples magic:cool:

munkery
Mar 21, 2011, 09:07 PM
Garbage collection works independent of Trim. The OEM SSDs in Apple products have GC.

ZipZap
Mar 22, 2011, 09:15 AM
Windows thinking! Trim is for Windows machines with SSD's. And just like you need to degrag their sorry hard drives you need to trim their SSD's. Macs are different. The Mac OS doesn't mess up the drives like Windows, that craps all over everything.

Sure, and that's why they're adding trim to Lion?

ZipZap
Mar 22, 2011, 09:18 AM
stockscalper is right that when Macworld tested the new SSD's in the Air performance did not substantially degrade after torture tests and re-installing the OS.

This was an interesting result and there are a several explanations for why this might be true.

However, one explanation that is definitely wrong is that somehow OS X doesn't "mess up" SSD's like Windows does.

Performance degradation of SSD's on Mac's have already been proven a variety of SSD's in the past. Newer SSD's are much better at garbage collection which partially explains the Macworld results.

If it were true that OS X doesn't "mess up" SSDs like Windows does, then we would expect to see that all SSDs (not just the newer ones found in the Air), including those without garbage collection, do not experience performance loss over time. But this is not the case.

In any case, a lot of results have shown that newer SSDs with garbage collection (beginning with the SF controllers) do a much better job of retaining performance over time than the first wave of SSDs. TRIM might still be helpful in the long run but it's not a big of a problem as it was so I wouldn't worry too much about it, especially since TRIM is coming soon to OS X anyways.

This is what I meant in the previous post...great post...thanks!

jamesryanbell
Mar 22, 2011, 11:48 AM
Sure, and that's why they're adding trim to Lion?

Maybe trim is just a minor improvement to GC.

ZipZap
Mar 22, 2011, 12:14 PM
Apple feels compelled to do it and also have a special OS version for MBP...

munkery
Mar 22, 2011, 01:02 PM
The push for Trim is driven by consumers that want to use Intel SSDs, which don't have Garbage Collection. If you browse other threads in this forum concerning SSDs, you can find info on what after market SSDs have GC and work well with Macs.

ZipZap
Mar 23, 2011, 09:15 AM
The push for Trim is driven by consumers that want to use Intel SSDs, which don't have Garbage Collection. If you browse other threads in this forum concerning SSDs, you can find info on what after market SSDs have GC and work well with Macs.

My intel has GC and Trim support.

munkery
Mar 23, 2011, 11:08 AM
My intel has GC and Trim support.

Which Intel drive do you have?

I thought the intel drives lack firmware based GC.

btdvox
Mar 30, 2011, 06:38 PM
Windows thinking! Trim is for Windows machines with SSD's. And just like you need to degrag their sorry hard drives you need to trim their SSD's. Macs are different. The Mac OS doesn't mess up the drives like Windows, that craps all over everything.

Man your an idiot. I saw your post on the Apple forums too. Saying the same things. You have no idea how an SSD works do you? Go to Anandtech.com and do some research. TRIM is needed for every system. That's why its coming to Macs. You need a way to handle garbage collection and fragmented files and thats what trim does.

Though this is useless on this forum since most of you guys will say Mac's don't need Defrag on Mechanical drives, it's the same point.

jenzjen
Mar 30, 2011, 07:19 PM
Look over in the Mac Pro forums, as Cindori came up with a trim enabler program. Now, I have Mac supported trim for my Intel G2 and my 2010 MBA.

KPOM
Mar 30, 2011, 07:37 PM
Look over in the Mac Pro forums, as Cindori came up with a trim enabler program. Now, I have Mac supported trim for my Intel G2 and my 2010 MBA.

It's here.

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1125400

DarwinOSX
Mar 30, 2011, 08:06 PM
As you probably know, data is never really "deleted" from a file system -- the file's name is removed and the data is added to a list of "free space."

Thats what happens at first but of course data is deleted at some point when its space is needed.

DarwinOSX
Mar 30, 2011, 08:14 PM
It's interesting that you feel free to call people someone you don't know an idiot when you are so obviously wrong.

Here is what Anand says about TRIM and MBA
"As I mentioned earlier, resilience is very important as OS X still doesn’t support TRIM. I filled the drive with garbage and then tortured it for 20 minutes with random writes. The resulting performance drop was noticeable, but not unbearable. A single pass of sequential writes restores performance to normal. This tells us two things. First, through normal use the drive should be able to recover its performance over time (assuming you give it enough spare area). And second, if there’s any idle garbage collection in Apple’s custom firmware for the Toshiba controller it should be able to keep the drive running at peak performance even without TRIM supported in the OS. I don’t have a good way of measuring whether or not there’s GC enabled on the drive in OS X, but I suspect Apple is (at least it appears to be doing so on the Mac Pro’s SSDs). Overall I’m pleased with Apple’s SSD selection. It could’ve been a lot better but it could’ve been a lot worse. The MacBook Airs in their default configuration have better IO performance than any other standard config Mac sold on the market today, including the Mac Pro."

You are also wrong about defragging.


Man your an idiot. I saw your post on the Apple forums too. Saying the same things. You have no idea how an SSD works do you? Go to Anandtech.com and do some research. TRIM is needed for every system. That's why its coming to Macs. You need a way to handle garbage collection and fragmented files and thats what trim does.

Though this is useless on this forum since most of you guys will say Mac's don't need Defrag on Mechanical drives, it's the same point.

RDRoe
Mar 30, 2011, 10:03 PM
I just installed the TRIM utility noted above on my MBAir 11". Easy and no worries. In the system info under the SATA area, it shows that TRIM is now turned on. Just follow the instructions, erase the free space, and perform the cleanup.

jamesryanbell
Mar 30, 2011, 11:47 PM
Man your an idiot.

............

theSeb
Mar 31, 2011, 01:24 AM
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I just installed the TRIM utility noted above on my MBAir 11". Easy and no worries. In the system info under the SATA area, it shows that TRIM is now turned on. Just follow the instructions, erase the free space, and perform the cleanup.

The 2010 MBA has trim support. OSX had trim support, but only for the current "apple" SSDs for various reasons. The utility in the mac pro forum allows one to use Trim for other SSDs before it's officially supported in MacOS (lion).

KPOM
Mar 31, 2011, 07:46 AM
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The 2010 MBA has trim support. OSX had trim support, but only for the current "apple" SSDs for various reasons. The utility in the mac pro forum allows one to use Trim for other SSDs before it's officially supported in MacOS (lion).

That's not entirely true. Apple activated TRIM in the 2011 MacBook Pros. However, older Macs, even those with SSDs that supported TRIM, did not get TRIM activated, even in 10.6.7. The utility in the Mac Pro forum activates TRIM for either Apple or non-Apple SSDs.

Oberhorst
Apr 1, 2011, 02:27 PM
Yep in my 2010 MBA it still say "No" to TRIM in the system info. I'm not exactly eager to use the TRIM Enabler since it is only a beta and I don't know what possibly could go wrong.
And after what I read here, it's not really needed anyway so no worries. I only hope, Apple is activating TRIM in Lion for alle Apple SSDs. Just to give me a good feeling because I know that TRIM works now, I probably wouldn't notice any improvement anyway. ;)

CHSeifert
Apr 2, 2011, 08:19 AM
Windows thinking! Trim is for Windows machines with SSD's. And just like you need to degrag their sorry hard drives you need to trim their SSD's. Macs are different. The Mac OS doesn't mess up the drives like Windows, that craps all over everything.

Typical comment from a Mac Noob who thinks Unix based OSx is the perfect of all perfect operation systems :rolleyes:

Your comment is total bull and rubbish and you just have to be naive Mac noob to say stuff like this :rolleyes:

SSD - no matter what OS you use, will degrade speed wise over time because of how its made if you don't use TRIM or the drive has a proper garbage collection.

Once you format the SSD drive, it will revert back to the old speed it used to have. This is not something a unique special Unix based Mac OS can do anything about :rolleyes:

Fragmentation is an entirely different thing - you're talking about apples and oranges :rolleyes:

CHSeifert
Apr 2, 2011, 08:21 AM
Do a search on the internets for the MacWorld torture tests that proved that ain't so.

Rubbish - the Flash drive on the MacBook Air has an excellent garbage collection, and supports TRIM, which is why the drive does not degrade speed wise over time.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE UNIX BASED MAC OSX - NOTHING !!

ritmomundo
Apr 2, 2011, 01:10 PM
Second gen SSDs got around this by using idle time garbage collection, wherein drives that are not busy go through written blocks looking for deleted data. Each block must be checked individually, there's no "hit list," and so idle GC is an inefficient way to clear up blocks. For laptop users who frequently close their lids, there isn't as much GC as there is for a server user and thus idle GC is less useful.

So on my 2010 MBA that doesn't have TRIM enabled atm, should I just leave it on and "idling" to allow this garbage collection process to occur? I normally just close the lid when I'm done using it. Is there a way to force the GC? Thanks.

rw3
Apr 10, 2011, 05:14 PM
I used the latest revision of Trim Enabler and I have TRIM on my Samsung SSD in my 2010 13" Ultimate Air...

jlblodgett
Apr 10, 2011, 07:49 PM
Macbook Airs were originally released in January 2008. They have had SSD in them the entire time.

Where were all the people complaining about TRIM back then?

fs454
Apr 10, 2011, 08:25 PM
Macbook Airs were originally released in January 2008. They have had SSD in them the entire time.

Where were all the people complaining about TRIM back then?

The three people who could afford the $1200 64gb SSD option had no idea what TRIM was.

TheXFactor
Apr 10, 2011, 08:56 PM
What's the real deal? Do I need to enable trim or not? MB Air 1.86/4/128.

Beaverman3001
Apr 10, 2011, 09:49 PM
What's the real deal? Do I need to enable trim or not? MB Air 1.86/4/128.

Need to? No. But theres really no reason not to (assuming it is actively working, I don't know if anyone ever confirmed it is actively working by enabling it with the change or not)

jamesryanbell
Apr 10, 2011, 11:37 PM
The three people who could afford the $1200 64gb SSD option had no idea what TRIM was.

I LOL'd.

(you do have a point though)
:)

kkel19
Apr 11, 2011, 12:26 AM
wow look what I have started..over 4600 views on my thread....how nice.

Bakari45
Apr 11, 2011, 11:23 AM
I canít address the question, but Iíd thought Iíd share a free PDF guide I just downloaded, titled Your Guide to Solid State Drives (http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/download-hard-drive-future-guide-solid-state-drives/). Hope itís okay to post links to resources like this on MacRumors.

magbarn
Apr 11, 2011, 12:58 PM
I used the latest revision of Trim Enabler and I have TRIM on my Samsung SSD in my 2010 13" Ultimate Air...

You're one of the lucky ones who got an Ultimate with the superior Samsung drive. The first run all came with the 10-15% slower Toshiba drive. Yours also supports NCQ, which is helpful when the drive is peppered with multiple requests (although the benefit should be smaller in SSD vs HD.)

rw3
Apr 21, 2011, 11:23 PM
You're one of the lucky ones who got an Ultimate with the superior Samsung drive. The first run all came with the 10-15% slower Toshiba drive. Yours also supports NCQ, which is helpful when the drive is peppered with multiple requests (although the benefit should be smaller in SSD vs HD.)

I've had my 13" Ultimate Air since late December...so not sure but they've been in the pipeline a little while.