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rmbrown09
Mar 23, 2011, 03:56 PM
Here are my thoughts....
Lion is a whole new OS but from using it for 3 weeks now (and finally reinstalling SL) I am not really sure what the big deal is here.

1.) It seems to not have a great many new or cool features to make it a whole new OS.. there is a newer finder, slightly different spotlight... There is Airdrop... new way to view apps and the dashboard... but I mean that isn't really enough to warrant a whole new OS?

2.) could there be other features coming and or something major not in the dev preview??

a redone mail app with fullscreen capabilities and some new scroll bars don't seem like enough for me to be amazed at this.



GoCubsGo
Mar 23, 2011, 03:57 PM
Any chance you're missing something in the background? Such as, the way it runs, handles files, memory, cpu load etc? Are you a dev or did you just get your hands on a dev copy?

rmbrown09
Mar 23, 2011, 04:42 PM
Any chance you're missing something in the background? Such as, the way it runs, handles files, memory, cpu load etc? Are you a dev or did you just get your hands on a dev copy?

In terms of memory and CPU management it's been atrocious. SL i generally use about .3 - .5 gigs when doing general safari browsing and other little things. Never use a whole gig unless I am gaming or using iMovie.

2GB doesn't seem like much but I never seem to use close to half of it on SL.
In Lion, doing the same general surfing and tinkering, I was using 1.5GB on average. CPU usage was also quite atrocious. I understand this is a preview, but I am not impressed by under the hood stuff so far.

That combined with only a handful of somewhat useful and cool features... I don't understand what the point of a new OS is.. Certainly new scroll bars and full screen apps could have been implemented into SL with an update.

I hope something much more remarkable happens with it before the final release. I will get it either way obviously, but right now I am just less than thrilled.

PBF
Mar 23, 2011, 05:23 PM
Lion is not "a whole new OS".

In fact, it's been the same OS since 1984 known as Macintosh Operating System. Lion is just a major update. I think that's what you meant to say, right?

Anyway, pedantry aside, it is a developer preview after all. Any groundbreaking features will likely remain hidden until the public release.

In your opinion, what kinda features could warrant "a major update"? Just curious.

MattInOz
Mar 23, 2011, 08:32 PM
Ummm.... It would be fairer to say "It's been the same OS since 1989 Known as NeXTSTEP, that (for a brief while) has a compatibility layer for the OS formally known as Mac OS".

Still It's been around longer than many of the posters here. Plus is likely to be around for a while yet.

MikhailT
Mar 23, 2011, 11:51 PM
Lion is the front end upgrade (interface, apps, stuff we see) from Leopard where Snow Leopard was the backend upgrade (gcd, opencl, under the hood overhaul).

We haven't seen anything that Lion has to offer. This is just the first DP that's based on several months old code. Apple wasn't going to offer the most recent compiled code as the first DP, they branched off from months ago and spend a month or two to make sure that it's stable enough to run for everybody to test their applications against.

The next seed update should be coming out soon which will be more recent with more optimizations.

baryon
Mar 24, 2011, 04:52 AM
That's what a new OS is. It's got some new features and loads of things that will change the way you use your computer.

What's the difference between Windows XP and Windows 7, two OS versions apart from each other, after almost 10 years? It's basically the same thing with a new UI and some new features, just less compatible with everything.

rmbrown09
Mar 24, 2011, 04:08 PM
Windows 7 from Vista brought a slew of things. Much needed reliability and under the hood improvements, along with practical things like snapping. A whole new taskbar, built in ISO buring... lots of stuff. It feels like there were significant improvements.


http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windows-7/compare/versions.aspx
explains a lot of them

Lion all I see is some redone apps, new scroll bars and iOS like dashboard and apps. Airdrop is there too along with a different finder.

CPU and memory usage I'm sure will improve greatly I'm not worried about that. But man I don't see why what we have seen so far out of Lion warrants a new .1 addition in the 10. family.

Opinion

baryon
Mar 24, 2011, 04:40 PM
http://www.apple.com/macosx/lion/

Here's a list of new stuff in Lion. Add to that all the things talked about on these forums, and voila, you have enough new features. What feature do you specifically wish Lion had that it doesn't have?

ufkdo
Mar 24, 2011, 04:42 PM
1. Trim support for SSDs
2. Full disk encryption

This two things will be enough for me to upgrade to lion.

yly3
Mar 24, 2011, 04:55 PM
Autosave is for me the best feature. I'm a student who writes a lot on my 11" MBA. To be honest, I don't know if you can actually get it done already with some plug-in or something.

kuwisdelu
Mar 24, 2011, 06:25 PM
Autosave is for me the best feature. I'm a student who writes a lot on my 11" MBA. To be honest, I don't know if you can actually get it done already with some plug-in or something.

I don't care about autosave in the least, but on a related note, Versions will make it worth it for me.

Thunderbird
Mar 24, 2011, 07:26 PM
... it is a developer preview after all. Any groundbreaking features will likely remain hidden until the public release.
.

Do groundbreaking features usually get added as late as the public release? Don't they need to be beta tested by devs for a while?

Dr McKay
Mar 25, 2011, 10:47 AM
I don't think its fair to judge Lion on what isnt even a beta, its a developer preview. Of course its going to use more memory, it isnt optimized yet.

Of course it looks the same, looks are one of the last things to change.

That'd be like judging Windows 7 on its first Beta.

PBF
Mar 25, 2011, 11:50 AM
Do groundbreaking features usually get added as late as the public release? Don't they need to be beta tested by devs for a while?
I guess it all depends on the kind of groundbreaking new feature. As someone has already mentioned, none of the iLife or iWork apps has ever got tested. Plus, for the sake of secrecy, any groundbreaking new feature could easily get tested internally.

HEB
Mar 25, 2011, 02:57 PM
The Lion Dev Preview is merely a frame of the full-length motion picture that 10.7 will really be. You can't say Apple hasn't included enough features (App Store, Launchpad, FullScreen, Mission Control, more Gestures, Autosave, Versions, Resume, Mail 5, AirDrop, New FileVault, Lion Server, and New UI & animation tweaks) to render as a new 10.x release if the launch date is planned in the summer (which, knowing Apple, actually means very late august or early september). After all, did you notice any major changes at first with 10.6? To the naked eye, it seemed like Leopard with a new default wallpaper. And, as stated above, it was an under-the-hood change, while Lion is an over-the-hood change, if you will. You can't judge whether this OS will fully live up to its name until the public release.

JKK photography
Mar 26, 2011, 01:40 PM
I don't think that you can state that Lion isn't "very cool" until it is launched.

Technically, the current build is only for devs to test out their apps on. Not normal consumers to play around in, and judge things.

That is all.

Branskins
Mar 26, 2011, 02:29 PM
My only problem was that it didn't feel very "cohesive" or consistent. Expose/Mission Control just has very odd behavior to me. But that could be because it feels a lot different than SL. I'm always awkward adjusting to change, but in the end I usually like it!

*LTD*
Mar 26, 2011, 08:48 PM
My only problem was that it didn't feel very "cohesive" or consistent. Expose/Mission Control just has very odd behavior to me. But that could be because it feels a lot different than SL. I'm always awkward adjusting to change, but in the end I usually like it!

It'll feel cohesive and consistent upon release.

Apple is kinda focused on making things cohesive and consistent, as in, pretty much the only ones in tech that are really concerned about cohesiveness and consistency.

You'll like it. ;)

RaceTripper
Mar 26, 2011, 08:58 PM
Judging a software product based solely on a developer preview seems pretty idiotic to me.

Why not wait for the customer release before being so dismissive?

SuperCachetes
Mar 26, 2011, 09:15 PM
Windows 7 from Vista brought a slew of things. Much needed reliability and under the hood improvements, along with practical things like snapping. A whole new taskbar, built in ISO buring... lots of stuff. It feels like there were significant improvements.

That doesn't really seem like a fair comparison, since the Windows upgrade was practically do-or-die for Microsoft. Vista sucked and was getting soundly thrashed by just about everybody - if it hadn't felt like "significant improvements" that could've been really bad. OTOH, it wouldn't have taken much in Win7 to feel like an improvement over the previous version.

Not that it would excuse a mediocre upgrade, Apple is under no such pressure. 10.6 is still viable, stable, and has more features than I'll ever find. I'm looking forward to 10.7, just because I'm distracted by shiny, new things - but I'll withhold judgment until I have the retail version in my hands.

rmbrown09
Mar 27, 2011, 03:53 AM
That doesn't really seem like a fair comparison, since the Windows upgrade was practically do-or-die for Microsoft. Vista sucked and was getting soundly thrashed by just about everybody - if it hadn't felt like "significant improvements" that could've been really bad. OTOH, it wouldn't have taken much in Win7 to feel like an improvement over the previous version.

Not that it would excuse a mediocre upgrade, Apple is under no such pressure. 10.6 is still viable, stable, and has more features than I'll ever find. I'm looking forward to 10.7, just because I'm distracted by shiny, new things - but I'll withhold judgment until I have the retail version in my hands.

I feel that the argument that Apple doesn't need to do anything remarkable with Lion because 10.6 is so good is a problem. Just because 10.6 is great doesn't mean play it safe with 10.7.

Glumpfner
Mar 27, 2011, 04:24 AM
Lion is still part of the Mac OS X (10) series (Lion being 10.7).

I am sure they will come up with a new ground breaking OS when Mac OS 11 gets released.

Especially now that rumor has it that Windows 8 will be totally different with each program running in a sandbox, Apple needs to come up with something major as well.

Shorties
Mar 27, 2011, 04:43 PM
For me what I love the most about Lion, is the new way it handles spaces/expose/fullscreen apps. Especially while utilizing the multitouch gestures. Using my computer on 10.7 with my Magic Trackpad has felt like conducting a symphony as I four finger swipe through my fullscreen apps. I gave iTunes its own space so that it can act like a fullscreen app as well, since it does not have that support yet. And swiping down allows you to see all the apps and spaces so quickly. That revamp to expose/mission control has not only gotten me to actually start using spaces and expose in my daily routine, but increased my productivity noticeably.

EDIT: Also one of the other major features of Lion is going to be how it handles and manages multitasking, but a lot of that requires developers to implement new API's into their applications to make it work.

maflynn
Mar 27, 2011, 05:13 PM
The thing that bothers me the most about Lion is this fact.

We more or less accepted the small (read almost no) changes in Snow Leopard as the real updates were under the hood. Because of that many of us had thought that apple would be pulling out the stops for Lion but so far that's not the case.

The File system is aging and needs to be replaced with a modern file system.
Resolution independence is something that's we've been holding out hope for years. Instead of seeing some meaty changes we get the ipadifcation of OSX.

Shorties
Mar 27, 2011, 05:15 PM
The thing that bothers me the most about Lion is this fact.

We more or less accepted the small (read almost no) changes in Snow Leopard as the real updates were under the hood. Because of that many of us had thought that apple would be pulling out the stops for Lion but so far that's not the case.

The File system is aging and needs to be replaced with a modern file system.
Resolution independence is something that's we've been holding out hope for years. Instead of seeing some meaty changes we get the ipadifcation of OSX.

The "iPadification of OSX" may lead to Resolution Independence though.

maflynn
Mar 27, 2011, 05:20 PM
The "iPadification of OSX" may lead to Resolution Independence though.

Perhaps in future version, my point is we've been waiting for that and again we don't get any real improvements.

JKK photography
Mar 27, 2011, 06:50 PM
That doesn't really seem like a fair comparison, since the Windows upgrade was practically do-or-die for Microsoft. Vista sucked and was getting soundly thrashed by just about everybody - if it hadn't felt like "significant improvements" that could've been really bad. OTOH, it wouldn't have taken much in Win7 to feel like an improvement over the previous version.

Not that it would excuse a mediocre upgrade, Apple is under no such pressure. 10.6 is still viable, stable, and has more features than I'll ever find. I'm looking forward to 10.7, just because I'm distracted by shiny, new things - but I'll withhold judgment until I have the retail version in my hands.

I believe the official attitude of Microsoft was to repackage Vista with a slightly updated UI, and some other tweaks to the system, and watch as people realized how great 7 was. The original release of Vista was bad, and deserved the rap that it got. After that, though, I'm not so sure. In other words, Windows 7 is Windows Vista, repackaged and slightly updated to feel somewhat new.

I don't think that Lion is going to be something amazing and revolutionary; frankly, I'm not sure if that is even possible in the desktop market anymore. People are so entrenched in their thought process that even relatively small changes to how we interact with a computer and its OS can be shocking and disliked to veteran users. For example, Lion is doing something very cool with spaces: instead of continuing to copy and repackage a feature that many Linux distributions have had since the start, Apple is using their expertise of gestures to make them usable and approachable for normal users; however, that isn't without backlash from aficionados that have grown accustomed to the current implementation. In my own experience, I love the way Spaces are in Lion. As a blogger, it's great to swipe between a word processor, image editor, and full screen Safari windows.

I'm not sure how Lion will be when it is finally shipped, but I fully believe that it will be a great upgrade. It will be hard for some, since this is the first update since Leopard that actually tweaked anything in the UI or UX departments (that's half a decade or so to grow accustomed to a certain experience). But, in the end, I look forward to it.

TheAppleDragon
Mar 28, 2011, 11:25 AM
I believe the official attitude of Microsoft was to repackage Vista with a slightly updated UI, and some other tweaks to the system, and watch as people realized how great 7 was. The original release of Vista was bad, and deserved the rap that it got. After that, though, I'm not so sure. In other words, Windows 7 is Windows Vista, repackaged and slightly updated to feel somewhat new.

I don't think that Lion is going to be something amazing and revolutionary; frankly, I'm not sure if that is even possible in the desktop market anymore. People are so entrenched in their thought process that even relatively small changes to how we interact with a computer and its OS can be shocking and disliked to veteran users. For example, Lion is doing something very cool with spaces: instead of continuing to copy and repackage a feature that many Linux distributions have had since the start, Apple is using their expertise of gestures to make them usable and approachable for normal users; however, that isn't without backlash from aficionados that have grown accustomed to the current implementation. In my own experience, I love the way Spaces are in Lion. As a blogger, it's great to swipe between a word processor, image editor, and full screen Safari windows.

I'm not sure how Lion will be when it is finally shipped, but I fully believe that it will be a great upgrade. It will be hard for some, since this is the first update since Leopard that actually tweaked anything in the UI or UX departments (that's half a decade or so to grow accustomed to a certain experience). But, in the end, I look forward to it.
+7 :P

I like Lion. I think it'll be worth the buy. A Dev Preview isn't really something we should judge by, since it's meant to be used for DEVELOPMENT purposes, not consumer enjoyment. :P

Blakeasd
Mar 28, 2011, 11:48 AM
Major features usually appear in the final release as Apple tends to test them internally. New features are coming, as it was hinted by the WWDC info, focusing only on software. Apple must have a lot to cover if they are not introducing any new hardware. The feature base and UI in Lion has improved dramatically and it adds some great things for devs, such as the AVFoundation, which I will be using a lot and PopOvers. Both of these are in IOS and it is great they are coming to OS X. Another great thing is the updated OpenGL, which will provide users with a much greater graphical experience.

aristobrat
Mar 28, 2011, 12:02 PM
That combined with only a handful of somewhat useful and cool features...
I'm excited to see that OS X Server is included with Lion. That saves me $499.

rmbrown09
Mar 28, 2011, 02:00 PM
I have no issue with Lion honestly, I reinstalled SL just because for me

1.) it was buggy on my Air and Pro (before I sold it)

2.) More importantly, it killed my battery life compared to SL. And (like right now sitting in English 201...boring) I need my laptop to function for long periods during the day without charge.

Mr. Retrofire
Mar 28, 2011, 03:02 PM
useful info (click the arrow above)

Thanks for this nice answer, MikhailT! ;-)

Mr. Retrofire
Mar 28, 2011, 03:22 PM
What's the difference between Windows XP and Windows 7, two OS versions apart from each other, after almost 10 years? It's basically the same thing with a new UI and some new features, just less compatible with everything.
You can use all XP compatible apps (http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/reviews/2010/01/windows-xp-mode.ars) under Windows 7. Even apps designed for Win 3.11. I think the final version of Lion has a VM with 10.5.8, iirc.

rmbrown09
Mar 28, 2011, 03:47 PM
That's what a new OS is. It's got some new features and loads of things that will change the way you use your computer.

What's the difference between Windows XP and Windows 7, two OS versions apart from each other, after almost 10 years? It's basically the same thing with a new UI and some new features, just less compatible with everything.

Lion will be two OS iterations from Leopard. And glancing quickly around there is very little difference.

XP --> 7 looks and feels, and even acts quite different.
Leopard ---> Lion... a couple new features and under the hood tweaks.

MikhailT
Mar 28, 2011, 10:39 PM
My current feeling is that Lion is going to be fully previewed at WWDC and it is likely that the current DP won't be updated until June. There are probably going to be new features that'll rock our world at WWDC. If Apple didn't mention the WWDC date and the subtitle of the event, I'd say that we have seen everything and we'd see an update soon to the Lion DP.

As for no new stuff happening in the Desktop OS market, that's not true. We haven't yet reached the full integration with OS and multi-touch technology or the so-called iOS-izing of Mac OS X.

The versions, auto-save, auto-resume features in Lion are very cool and can change the way we work with files in the OS. I just don't know how well it works with the current HFS+ file system, if it had ZFS or BTrFS, it would be the biggest change in Lion. The new file system would also change how Time Machine works with your files in real-time.

The one thing that nobody is aware of is that most of the current applications on the Mac OS platform haven't taken full advantage of all the new APIs features in Snow Leopard. It'd be years before we'd start seeing Lion-optimized apps as well. Apps will become more interactive, extensive and more powerful once it is truly optimized for Snow Leopard and again for Lion.

jmann
Mar 28, 2011, 10:44 PM
It'd be years before we'd start seeing Lion-optimized apps as well. Apps will become more interactive, extensive and more powerful once it is truly optimized for Snow Leopard and again for Lion.

I disagree with this. As more, and more apps make their way into the Mac App Store, Apple will be able to set the criteria however they want, and I could see them requiring or encouraging the developers to work with the new APIs.

MikhailT
Mar 28, 2011, 10:59 PM
I disagree with this. As more, and more apps make their way into the Mac App Store, Apple will be able to set the criteria however they want, and I could see them requiring or encouraging the developers to work with the new APIs.

It's not that simple. Apple themselves can't even get their iTunes and many of their apps to use the latest APIs and they expect the developers to do the same? There's a reason that Apple opened the Mac App Store on Snow Leopard, they are fully aware that it is damn near impossible for everybody to release the apps on first day of Lion's release date if the apps are required to use Lion's APIs only.

The Mac App Store already encourage developers to use only public APIs, but it will not require developers to use specific API versions unless they want to be marked as "lion ready".

I agree with you that it'd be faster for simple apps to take full advantage of Lion's APIs but not medium-complex apps like Photoshop, Office, iWork/iLife and so on.

Also, using specific Lion APIs mean that the app will not work on Snow Leopard and it take months if not a year before there's over 50% of Lion users in the OS X install base.

greenmeanie
Mar 29, 2011, 06:58 AM
I played with it too.
The only thing I liked was clicking the apps button from the quick launch bar.
Otherwise it looks and feels just like SL.
Having server included is a pus thou.

Here are my thoughts....
Lion is a whole new OS but from using it for 3 weeks now (and finally reinstalling SL) I am not really sure what the big deal is here.

1.) It seems to not have a great many new or cool features to make it a whole new OS.. there is a newer finder, slightly different spotlight... There is Airdrop... new way to view apps and the dashboard... but I mean that isn't really enough to warrant a whole new OS?

2.) could there be other features coming and or something major not in the dev preview??

a redone mail app with fullscreen capabilities and some new scroll bars don't seem like enough for me to be amazed at this.

JKK photography
Mar 29, 2011, 04:31 PM
Lion will be two OS iterations from Leopard. And glancing quickly around there is very little difference.

XP --> 7 looks and feels, and even acts quite different.
Leopard ---> Lion... a couple new features and under the hood tweaks.

Well there's your problem right there. You glanced.

But really, come on. Look at the time difference between XP 7, and compare that to Leopard and Lion. That's a big difference, my friend, for the computing world.

roadbloc
Mar 29, 2011, 04:41 PM
Lion will be two OS iterations from Leopard. And glancing quickly around there is very little difference.

XP --> 7 looks and feels, and even acts quite different.
Leopard ---> Lion... a couple new features and under the hood tweaks.

You should be comparing OS X Cheetah with Lion since Cheetah came out in the same year as Windows XP.

rmbrown09
Mar 29, 2011, 05:04 PM
You should be comparing OS X Cheetah with Lion since Cheetah came out in the same year as Windows XP.

Either way I hope that the final release of Lion brings more to the table than what we have seen. Under the hood stuff I can't comment on just yet because as of right now, it performs worse in about every way compared to SL

Battery life
Memory usage
CPU usage

This is my SL comp usage, with Lion installed, I was at double just about everything (or more) while idling.
http://cl.ly/0C2M393P0b1c153u2s1Y/Screen_shot_2011-03-29_at_3.04.31_PM.png

I'm sure it'll get cleaned up but right now all we can look to is the UI based changes, and there we see full screen apps....different scroll bars....a launchpad...idk, nothing remarkable.

Mackilroy
Mar 29, 2011, 05:12 PM
Either way I hope that the final release of Lion brings more to the table than what we have seen. Under the hood stuff I can't comment on just yet because as of right now, it performs worse in about every way compared to SL
It's a preview. Of course it isn't going to run as smoothly as a mature version of OS X.

JKK photography
Mar 29, 2011, 05:23 PM
And yet it is a developer preview... Developer preview as in, not even a beta yet.

Jethryn Freyman
Mar 31, 2011, 05:16 AM
Built in full disk encryption seals the deal for me. Seriously. It makes it all totally worthwhile. Big feature that has been missing.

RaceTripper
Mar 31, 2011, 08:25 AM
Built in full disk encryption seals the deal for me. Seriously. It makes it all totally worthwhile. Big feature that has been missing.At the moment, it is what I am looking forward to using the most.

Sadly, it appears Apple still doesn't want to catch up to Windows XP and implement resolution independence. That was the other feature I wanted to see.

netdog
Mar 31, 2011, 08:26 AM
I'm not really concerned with my OS being cool.

maflynn
Mar 31, 2011, 09:26 AM
Built in full disk encryption seals the deal for me. Seriously. It makes it all totally worthwhile. Big feature that has been missing.

If that's the only major feature, then its kind of sad.

RaceTripper
Mar 31, 2011, 09:51 AM
If that's the only major feature, then its kind of sad.Actually, for anyone with a laptop or for Macs in business environments, that's a very important feature.

maflynn
Mar 31, 2011, 02:07 PM
Actually, for anyone with a laptop or for Macs in business environments, that's a very important feature.

I didn't say unimportant, but rather sad that its really just about the only major feature that Lion is sporting.

RaceTripper
Mar 31, 2011, 02:09 PM
I didn't say unimportant, but rather sad that its really just about the only major feature that Lion is sporting.And what I'm saying is that feature alone makes it worth upgrading. :)

rmbrown09
Mar 31, 2011, 02:13 PM
I'm not trying to hate on Lion. I will be upgrading of course.

For me I am excited for
1.) TRIM
2.) The new finder is growing on me
3.) Airdrop could be very useful at work
4.) Full screen apps have been cool

Cool stuff...

However can anyone comment on if preview 2 has better CPU and memory utilization.

Thanks. (Especially if you have a MacBook Air, we don't have a lot of resources to throw around)

roadbloc
Mar 31, 2011, 02:17 PM
Thanks. (Especially if you have a MacBook Air, we don't have a lot of resources to throw around)

Since the Macbook Air is Apple's newest computer product, I seriously doubt they will make an OS that cripple it. Don't worry, Lion will run a dream on it when it is released.

Tmelon
Mar 31, 2011, 03:30 PM
I'm not trying to hate on Lion. I will be upgrading of course.

For me I am excited for
1.) TRIM
2.) The new finder is growing on me
3.) Airdrop could be very useful at work
4.) Full screen apps have been cool

Cool stuff...

However can anyone comment on if preview 2 has better CPU and memory utilization.

Thanks. (Especially if you have a MacBook Air, we don't have a lot of resources to throw around)

On the Apple site Lion is almost always shown on a Macbook Air, so of course it should run perfectly fine when the final build is released. I don't have Dev Preview 2 (or a Macbook Air), but I assume they've at least made it a bit better.